UK Music Icon: Wretch 32

0:00Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's happening people? My name is Mo Gilligan and this is the Beginning, Middle and End podcast. Now this is where I'm going to be asking some of my favourite people about how they started, where they are now and the legacy they want to leave. Today I'm going to be talking with someone who is widely regarded as one of the most articulate artists to emerge from the UK rap and grime scene. That's right people. His ability to evolve from pyro radio sets to chart topping success. and never compromising his lyrical integrity has cemented him as a UK music icon. We speak about everything from holding the Olympic torch to signing a record deal and just wanting to perform at the world famous Jazz Cafe.

0:47Mo Gilligan: Now, even as trends change, he has remained extremely relevant. So please, welcome to the podcast, Retro32. But no, thanks for doing the podcast, bruv. Bro, come on, man. It's been overdue still. No, but I know how busy you are as well. So, and I also appreciate people where, you know, when I think I first asked you, you was a sat-up bro. Like I just, when the album comes out, I've got something to talk about. Cause I get it. Like, same with me. Like when I don't have anything to talk about, it's not so much I must be on there for promo, but you're like, that is a part of my life where it's just like, I have to sell whatever the thing is, the TV show, whatever.

1:27Mo Gilligan: but it's also like yeah for me to just be in my house and then be in that chill mode and that zen mode or writing I don't know what your how it works for you but for me I need to be away from like doing active things where I'm like I got nothing to talk about bruv yeah yeah yeah 100 % and also as well sometimes I'll just feel like I'm just promoting myself yeah yeah you know what I'm saying like yeah I've done 20 podcasts because I'm rich yeah yeah yeah Okay, but what does that even mean? It's like I like to do it when it's like, yeah, I'm rich, but there's this thing here that you can buy. Because you're a Pisces, isn't it?

2:05Yeah. March Pisces, people at March Pisces are very, very creative.

2:13Mo Gilligan: But as a Pisces, they're like, yeah, cool, but I need my switch off period, innit? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And emotional as well. Oh, yeah, yeah. Bro, if you swore at me in nursery, I can still hear it echoing in the chambers of my mind, bro. And you know, you know the sickest thing about that though? It's like, man hold on to everything. But it's like, it's not hold on to it to be angry at you. It's hold on to it. So then when I'm in a studio and I hear instrumental and it feels aggressive or it feels emotional, it feels sad, then I can draw from something. In the museum, do you get what I'm saying?

2:51At that time I was sad that I was at the funeral. I remember crying that's how this song feels so let me let me let me let me explain that feeling and talk them through that so I think it it works in work but obviously in life you're just have you always been creative from young? to be honest I was I was I was always no no I was always like I was into I was an entertainer I'd say okay like I'd be at my granddad she'd be like when her brothers come over she's like

3:18Mo Gilligan: yo do the do the do the Michael Jackson do the moonwalker yeah yeah yeah I'm moving like I don't want to okay do the moonwalking you know what I'm saying I've always been like I'm jokes innit you know what I'm saying so I've always been that in terms of I don't know if that's like creative I think it's more like I don't know it's just like a natural entertaining gift do you know what I'm saying and I think the creativity came later I think growing up there was this era of kids where we all grew up to MJ so it's the same I had the same thing it was like i do your michael jackson but it was only until a bit later that i honed in on the craft of comedy which was like i feel like this is the thing that i'm quite good at you know i'm just gonna run with it because your mom was your mom a dj dad your dad was a dj yeah your dad was a dj yeah so you grew up in topden your dad's a dj was that like your earliest memory of like hearing sounds because i feel like when you grew up in that household and it was similar to me where it's almost you're not introduced to it because your parents are like hey like listen to this or listen to that it's just part of like the chores you're cleaning or like you know there is a night night so it's there it's part of you hear it at a wedding so how was like music introduced to you more funeral than wedding boy oh yeah funerals yeah boy can't lie funerals are a turn up man yeah Yeah, funerals is more common.

4:51We have a dead, we don't have to marry, you know. More common, yeah. Yeah, I think everything, like you say, everything we've done came with a song. So like, if you're making toast, in the toaster there's a two-minute song that you can play in a little stereo in the kitchen. Dad's playing the records in the front room. My sisters are R &B in their room. I could be listening to Beanie Man, Boutne Killer in my room. My mum, in my mum's room, every room's got a stereo. In my mum's room, she's like Karen White and Lisa Stansfield. She likes what's in the charts, you know what I'm saying? What's on the radio.

5:29So it's like a nightclub, you know, where there's a bit of different rooms.

5:33Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's how the house was, yeah. So how did that start to influence your sound as you got older? Because the reason why I ask is I feel like... It's something really interesting with North London when it comes to music, where we all know that like the sound of especially Graham is you know is birthed in East London yeah South I grew up in South London so there was this influx of you know like you're so solid Cruz and as you got a little bit older you had little other factions of of Cruz and stuff but there's such a big influence of like Jamaica in Tottenham. Like you, I hear it from every, the majority of people who come from North London, especially Tottenham is, you know, and I've spoke to people who aren't even, don't even do music and they're like, yeah, like that was what we were surrounded by.

6:24Mo Gilligan: So how did that start shaping you as the musician you are today in some ways? I think there's like certain roads, like West Green Road is like Jamaica. do you get what I'm saying and Jamaica and Africa yeah yeah yeah do you get what I'm saying combined like I think like just the influence of walking past barber shops the influence of what was playing at home and just the community in general do you know what I'm saying like all my mum like my family got accent my grands got accent my aunties uncles you know what I'm saying like everyone's got accent so I think the Caribbean thing is just part of my DNA and then I get introduced to different different sonics different sounds there's like there's Heartless Crew there's like you said there's Soul Solid Crew there's Glamour Kid yeah oh right you know what I'm saying Glamour Kid like Jamelia Jamelia a core memory there yeah but Jamelia's got the song with Beanie Man do you get what I'm saying so it's like the music that I like it's all collaborative and you know what I'm saying and then yeah I think like I fall in love I fell in love with music via probably reggae and dancehall and R &B.

7:37Then I found hip hop myself. And then, yeah, so like my first records was like, like a yard man, like a dancehall artist.

7:48Mo Gilligan: Like the early wretch is like the 13 year old wretch. Did you ever try to DJ? To mix? Yeah. Nah. Because I feel like there's a lot of roots where you hear people's origins and they say like, you know, there's like, yeah, I started DJing a bit and then that was my first taste of where you mix a track or anything because I know you say like your dad DJs and stuff as well. I asked him, one time I asked him like to explain what he was, like how to do what he was doing and the explanation was just above me. I was mad young though, but I was just like, I just knew that weren't for me. And certain times he might be playing at a christening or whatever and I was more intrigued by the things he was saying on the mic, like just controlling the night.

8:30Mo Gilligan: do you know what I'm saying like that was more I was like rah like that voice is coming through the speakers you know what I'm saying like that was what was not the selecting as much do you know what I'm saying the voice so I think yeah that was probably like part of the choice that you know how'd you become an Arsenal fan though if you're from Tottenham because I love asking this from people that are from Tottenham because you can't walk past anywhere without seeing Tottenham everywhere yeah Ian Wright oh is it yeah same same same Ian Wright 100 % Ian Wright Ian Wright that was like you made me want to be you made me want to do you made me see you made me feel like Ian Wright bro Ian Wright Ian Wright Ian Wright and then I think also as well my part of Tottenham I'm from an estate called Tiverton so it's like where like the last part of Tottenham before you get to Manor House Finishing Park so I'm probably the same distance from Highbury as I am White Hart Lane notice I said Highbury obviously Emirates but Highbury you get what I'm saying so I'm like they're both my local clubs to be honest it's so interesting because there's so many young black boys out there when it comes to if you're born in the 90s we'll say 80s and you was a 90s kid it's that like Ian Wright was your was your guy which is interesting now when you speak when I meet some of the the youngest and I'm like oh who's your team and they're like oh PSG and I'm like what I'm like what Mbappe and I'm like alright They missed the whole thing.

10:00But if you look at the era above us, it'll be like Liverpool. Yes. When you see a black man and he supports Liverpool, it's John Barnes. Do you get what I'm saying? So it's like certain players just...

10:10Mo Gilligan: Yeah, I'd say also then Chelsea, Drogba. Yeah, yeah. Some of the... Yeah, yeah, man. You know what was interesting the first time I met you at Sunday's show was I think it came at a time where a lot of people that were MCs, there used to be an era where you could only hear someone from the radio. So you didn't even know what they looked like. And then before you knew it, like social media came about, we had the kind of MySpace era, but you got to see what somebody looked like. And you're like, oh, and also because I wasn't old enough to go to any of the raves as well. Yeah. So then when social media came about, there was also a time where you got to like, see these people and listen to them.

10:50Mo Gilligan: And, but also it was also at a time where you had SBTV, you had the F64s, you had, you know, Grime Daily back then. But you also seen musicians that you listen to and you're like, oh, like, these are just playing football. Like, as much as they're MCs, they're like friends and they're playing football or they're like, I think that was, that was like the early documentation of your era of musicians where it was like, oh, wow, like, before it just went from me just listening to this person. And that was ever it. And that was enough. yeah yeah and then if they went on to be a star like you know like a dizzy rascal it'd be like oh wow like okay i've seen him go from there to there where now i can like watch you do a freestyle and see you guys going to studio and coming up with you know writing lyrics and stuff so then meeting you was nuts because one time i seen you in west end and you went into hmv records yeah and i think you must have went in there to maybe buy like a mixtape or something because everyone would go in there yeah yeah the big one and i went in there because you was in there and it was like i said to my friend hey hey rich is in there let's rob him no no no i'm joking but it was just like right he's a real person yeah yeah and you like i don't you don't remember this but you was like oh yeah what's good man someone someone came up to you and said i think them men are following you and you look you look was like hey what go on you man cool man yeah yeah we were like yeah yeah we just want to say man like like your stuff man yeah yeah yeah cool man like thanks for the support man so then to see you at Sunday show I don't know if you know this as well but you bought me a drink as well that's crazy you bought me a rum and coke yeah and that was at a time where I was like I used to hold on to that you know yeah yeah yeah I was like yeah man Richard's in my bed you know yeah man this is rum and coke man man took the rum and coke off poured it in the pocket you know But then what it really done was, it really kind of, because I always felt like with, it was so early within social media that it was like, oh right, I'm always closer than I thought to the people that I admire.

13:02Mo Gilligan: It felt like that seal had been broken. Whereas I think before, if you grew up in that kind of top of the pops generation, it was like, well, So Solid Crew are on top of the pops and I'm a fan and I'll buy the record, but will I ever meet them? Yeah, they're so removed. Probably not. But it felt like, oh right, I feel like this is a guy who, I know the only difference is we just live in different parts of the UK. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how was it for you at that early time where I felt like, you know, you're doing these freestyles, but essentially, like I think for us, it was almost like, well, you guys must be rich, man.

13:40Mo Gilligan: Yeah. You're on reading, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And everybody knows you because you're like, yeah like i've heard your freestyles and stuff how was that early part especially like when you're in the movement and stuff as well yeah yeah i think i think it's more you're you're always like just waiting for the next thing or trying to make the next thing happen i still even feel like that now like it's always about the next thing but i mean at that time when i look back at what my goals were it was like cool one day I want to sell out the jazz cafe oh wow yeah because I'd watched I'd watched me and my manager went to watch Kleshnikov in the jazz cafe and my mum was like yo this is like you know what I'm saying even I'd seen Kano in Astoria do you get what I'm saying and I was like nah that story was a bit too big like let's be realistic like you know what I'm saying like it was like everything was proper like yeah cool if I could just get the next step then just get the next step like you know like the first the first time I felt like I went platinum somebody drove past me playing my songs and I didn't know the person yeah so that's like my first mixtape do you get what I'm saying and it's like he doesn't know it's me either but he's listening to it at the traffic light and I'm walking past and he's just like I'm like bro that felt like I felt so successful that day.

15:09Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Do you get what I'm saying? So it was always about small steps. You know what I mean? It was about little steps. And that's like, I guess to people that were listening to the music, that were probably like, yeah, it seemed like it was a bigger deal than it was. But we were spending, I say spending more money than we were making. We wasn't even making. We were just spending. Everything was spending. And then even... What were you spending on? videos like to to press up a thousand CDs cost me 540 pound I've done that in a place called Jetstar which was in Halsden but that's 540 40 pound for the CDs and then the studio time is 15 pound an hour and then like the producers it might be 100 pound a beat 200 pound a beat you know what I'm saying like you work the man in my doing you favours like if you take 5 beats I'll do it for 35 like you know what I'm saying like it's like you're selling weed bro do you get what I'm saying so there's all of them little costs as well and artwork I know a guy that like everyone knows one guy I know a guy that can do artwork you know who come take the picture and he can just do a little thing and then put the logo on it and then how much does he charge he charges 50 pounds like so everything's just like a little not a massive expenditure but once he was like trying to get to channel you and trying to be trying to hope that you can get on MTV base then you know okay if I'm going to do a video then and it's like two grand, 2 ,500.

16:38So it's a lot of, like a lot of 100 pounds here and there and 200 pounds here and there. Do you know what I mean? So by the time you press out your 1 ,000 CDs as well, it's like you just, then this shop wants to take five CDs only and do sale and return. So when they sell out, they call you, you come, you get your money. But it's like, sometimes the shop was in Nottingham or Manchester. So I'm like, bro, I didn't even, And I remember we went to, it might have been Manchester with my manager, yeah? And they're like, yeah, we only want five. I'm like, boss, listen, take 25. I'm not coming back. Don't worry about the sailor return thing.

17:16I ain't coming back for that money, bro. Just, I don't want you to phone me and say the five's gone and I have to come back and do five more. Just please take, like you were bartering with shops like that just to be in the shop, bro. Mad time.

17:31Mo Gilligan: how how important was that hustle for you at that time because it felt like social media started in some ways do you know what i mean like with with like a myspace that felt like this is real diy now yeah you know i mean if you think about it yeah myspace is like your website and spotify combined because you remember you could see the amount of plays oh yeah yeah so that's how you knew roughly who was on what level like you see our gets gets gets 2 000 plays a day jme jamie was killing jamie gets a couple thousand plays a day so you know that yeah you can gauge like and even like it just helps to know like okay now like not that you look at that to see who to work with but just so you know where everyone's at because your monitor in it like okay cool yeah i'm getting bigger I got 3 ,000 plays today.

18:21Like that's a, you know what I'm saying? So I think like it was as important as Instagram and TikTok is today.

18:30Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Because it was the first of that. And I guess because also at that time you can find your fan base, but also they can like find you directly and people that listen to your stuff, but also like, you know, like in your top friends, for example. Yeah. like if anyone listening at the time and you go onto the profile you'd have the top friends and you'd put you know your musician friends in there and everyone else that you're like top eight yeah top eight yeah some people have like a top 12 it was like too much yeah yeah yeah they have too much friends yeah how important though was it also at the time because you know he's part of the movement did it feel competitive being part of like the movement at the time or did it feel like we're brothers in arms where we're like we're all in this doing the same thing but was there like a competitive nature in it because everyone's everyone was good it was a crew where it was like fucking hell bro like everyone was good do you know what I mean it's like the best type of competing like it's not competing like I don't I don't want I don't want you to sell no records it's competing like I want you to be the best you can be because that's going to make me be the best I can be.

19:52Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I'm saying? So everyone's just doing that and everyone's just raising and raising and the bar's raising. Yeah. Do you get what I'm saying? And that's the type of like competition that like what do you say? Steel sharpens steel bro. You know what I mean? Like we all kept each other sharp. There's a freestyle you lot have all got together and it is like I remember me and a friend of mine was watching it one time and I remember it gave us goosebumps because we were like, it's in black and white. It's filmed on one extra and you're all going back to back. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:25Fucking hell. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:27Mo Gilligan: I don't know if it's even unusual. I think they might have taken it down. Yeah, bare stuff is missing. But I'll never forget it's in black and white and you're all going back to back. But like me and a friend of mine, when we was watching it, it was just like, I remember us looking at each other like, fucking hell, bruv. Because I think at that time, like the wheel up culture is always part of grime. Where you're like, oh shit, spin that back. But when you do it on YouTube, it might always have the same effect because you've got to take it back, be like, oh, it's too far back. I want to hear that.

21:03Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was like playing it and then being like, bruv, like, let's play that again, man. yeah yeah yeah the replay value let's play it again nah the man them just kept the man them sharp man that's what you know what I'm saying it's sharp and I think in anything you need that like like Messi don't reach the heights he reached without Ronaldo you know what I'm saying it doesn't happen because he is they're do you know what I'm saying they're doing that you don't get any other sport Federer and Nadal do you know what I'm saying like Djokovic and all of that like they'll always say like nah you actually pushed me over you know what I even expected of myself and I think in especially in rap or grime or whatever like when you're spitting that is the the nature of the game is I start writing lyrics to be the best spitter at whatever genre I do in my country or in the world yeah yeah you know what I'm saying and then along that journey you come across people that share that goal that you're going to get on with and that's only going to push you all you know what I'm saying to be better so yeah because this is around 2006 yeah it's when you put out one of your this is teacher's training day you put out in 2006 and of course from that you know you start building a fan base you showcase what you're able to do what you're also able to see because you can start seeing other people on other platforms so it starts opening up, I guess, the UK of like, oh, right, like, is this person doing something here and that person doing something there?

22:49You said, like, one of your goals was to perform at Jazz Cafe. Yeah.

22:55Mo Gilligan: What were your other goals? Because I guess as a musician, there are, I feel like there are goals of, you know, especially as an MC, which is like, cool, I want to be considered one of the best in my craft that people say like, cool, top five. Yeah. I need to be in that conversation. Yeah. Even if I'm not in your top 10, I want you to be still being like, ah, but yeah. So that's always in that. For me, I don't know if that's a goal. That's just always public's opinion. Do you know what I mean? But like, what are those other goals? Is it goals of being signed? Is it goals of touring? because I knew touring and performing at that time was really hard because you know for any musician especially you know MCs it was banned in a lot of places as well so I think I think the goal is to be the best that's what that's what I started with like I'm I want to be prolific like I want you to put my name next to the names that I should be next to do you know what I'm saying I think being signed in the beginning was a dream did it feel attainable no so it felt like a dream do you know what I'm saying like right if I could get signed do you know what I'm saying if I could get signed I could be like I could change my life do you know what I'm saying that's what that was but like yeah so like to sell out the jazz caf was like yeah man if I do that then I've done something do you know what I'm saying I saw a clash on the cuff there you get what I'm saying he can do it I can do it you know what I'm saying it's like it feels realistic as well to have a video on MTV Bass was definitely a goal I think a lot of artists say this as well yeah it was a goal I think playlisting on One Extra and then like getting played on Choice FM it didn't feel like you could get playlisted on Choice FM which is obviously now Capital Extra really yeah it didn't feel like you could get playlisted you felt like you could get played like 279 in the night it could play you or whatever or master steps maybe you know what I'm saying but it didn't feel like playlisting was a thing so it'd be like cool playlist on one extra a play on choice like you just have little things that were quite realistic you know what I mean you wouldn't I never I wouldn't say that I dreamt big I didn't really dream big I think I just thought like just be sensible with what you're you know what I'm saying what you're hoping to achieve here yeah do you think you wasn't able to dream big because there wasn't references beforehand.

25:36Does that make sense? Yeah.

25:38Mo Gilligan: My perception, I only ask that because my perception of around that time, it's different where the space that Black UK music is in now, but I guess at that time, even to see someone win an award felt like, oh my God, bookmark this moment. Oh yeah. Because wow, we've just seen it. Even Top of the Pops. Top of the Pops, that was a dream. Yeah. That's a dream. to win a mobile yeah was a a goal slash dream as well like wow I just imagine you know what I'm saying like the people you're seeing winning and performing at the mobiles like even if they know like you know like at that time yeah like small things mean so much yeah like I remember it might even have been like BBC One Extra Live or something somewhere and me and my manager we spoke to Alicia Dixon's radio plugger which is a woman that I had like good proper clothes with now a woman called Mel and like just that like that they knew who we was do you get what I'm saying was like rah she works at like you know what I'm saying like that was like such a like yeah man we're doing it man we're like you know like that like that and she don't even know like how much that encouragement was and then like Alicia Dixon was like had a record out and she was like oh I want to do like like a remix and get a rapper on it and I'd love you to to do it and I was like what and she was like me like yeah yeah I'd love you to do it it's like alright cool what do you need like yeah like if you could like I was like what have you got a beat send me the beat I'll do it tomorrow I'll do it quick she was like no no I'll get your producer to make like my producer as well like bear in mind I've been giving my man 50 pound 100 pound you get what I'm saying so it's like bro I might can get you like four bills with this or five bills with this you know like I told you you know what I'm saying Wizzy to stick with me you know what I'm saying like every little thing bro was like such a big thing and then you do it and you're like I hope they like it you know what I'm saying they like it it comes out all of these little things bro like help like to make you even feel like raw okay maybe I can or maybe I am what I think I am because my area Tottenham is championing me they're saying this is the guy do you get what I'm saying this guy I'm in college there was one time there's an American ute there ooh come to get me like yo come come come there's this ute he can rap he's American though but we told him you're here do you get what I'm saying I'm thinking what's this a battle we're rapping acapella do you get what I'm saying like oh shit I'll never forget what did he say he said something like something something something like they get involved with things they ain't concerned with he's like me and my dogs keep it rowdy like busting higher learning I was just standing there like whoa this guy's a rapper rapper like I had to rap back I can't remember what I said but it was just like Tottenham was saying nah it's you do you know what I'm saying so it's like in my mind I was just like if you could just Tottenham thinks that if you could get Manor House to think that then Finnsbury Park to think that Stamford Hill to think that you know what I'm saying if you can just build it out and then hopefully you know it can spread like a wildfire that was the hope anyway does it feel like a lot of pressure when you know that the whole of Tottenham is behind you.

29:04Mo Gilligan: Nah. You don't feel that pressure? Pressure's a luxury, bro. Pressure only means that you're capable. People don't put pressure on you for things that is unrealistic. Like, when I look out the window, I want to see you flying through the sky, bro. Like, no one's going to say that. They're going to say, Mo, when I see, when you step on that stage, bro, make everybody laugh. You can look at it like pressure, but you're capable of doing it because they've seen you do it before so they know you make us laugh all the time so when you go on there just do the same thing like is it pressure? it's just you know what I'm saying so I never nah I've never ever ever felt pressure to rap or to even when I'm signed like to do no pressure no chance did you get nervous?

29:50in the beginning yeah

29:51Mo Gilligan: what do you mean by that in the beginning? oh bro in the beginning you know like you remember like performing at a Sunday show oh yeah yeah my belly was really at Sunday show you're saying really at Sunday show do you remember Mo do you remember you know like the UK TGA was like it was cool then it wasn't cool then it was cool then it wasn't cool so when you're doing certain things in certain spaces like Sunday show is a tough crowd bro to rap to when it's not cool or it's not a song that they know or an artist that they know do you know what I'm saying Yeah, man. But you was known then, though.

30:30People knew you back then. No, yeah. But as I say, like, things, like, maybe you know me, but I ain't got a song that you know.

30:38Mo Gilligan: Ah, I see. You saw me do an F64 that you thought was called, and you saw me rapping with Gets, and you thought that that was called. But, okay, now come and do a performance of a song that nobody knows. And the vibe's like this. And then now you've got to tell jokes, and you've got to talk them through the song, and you've got to have charisma and you've got to have a skank or you've got to... Yeah, yeah, yeah. That training is what's missing today. I never thought of it like that, you know? Because I remember when you used to come, you was known, you were someone that, you know, when you came, everyone's like, oh, hey, Rich is here, man, bro.

31:14Yeah.

31:14Mo Gilligan: Like, you guys come quite regularly as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was like, I never thought of it like that because I just, I guess when I look back at it now, the audience, yeah, you know, you didn't have a song, but also, yeah, you know, the audience is, it's a tough audience. It's not, yeah, it's like, go on, go on. Yeah, yeah, go on then bro. Yeah, you better be good bro. Yeah, do something bro. Man, I'm like, when you're sitting, like, the common thing is, one thing like we used to say back then is, like, what we used to ask, like, say like me and Gets out of shore or whatever, yeah, and he's gone out before me, but maybe I never saw his performance or whatever, and I'm like, oh, when you told him to make some noise, or like when you tell them to put their hands up they put their hands up like nah nah don't say that then yeah scrap that from the show it's not a put your hands up thing tell Sunday show put your hands up hands up yeah yeah yeah bro no one's putting up nothing we've always had to suppress that I always I always knew that to this day as well actually when I still do shows and I'm like oh should we say you've done this and done that and I'm like actually no no don't don't say none of that like because I know this audience and they know me to the point where when I step out, I know I'm going to look at someone's face and they're like, God bless you.

32:29Mo Gilligan: It's just like, a lot, man. So then, you spoke about dreams a little bit and then in 2011, your dream came true because you got signed. Yeah. How does that start to change now? Because you said that you never felt, you know, you don't believe in pressure. Yeah. But then early on, you would get nervous. when you sign a deal, is there any nerves that come from that? Or does it feel like now the journey starts? Yeah, because I think at that stage, I've done I Love Live a million times, one over the audience. I've done Sunday shows a million times, one over the audience. I've gone to Bristol, gone to Birmingham.

33:10I've done 20 ,000 hours, not even 10. Do you get what I'm saying? I'm well within, I know what I'm on and blah, blah, blah. oh, obviously now this is going to be the next chapter of it, but I'm ready. And you know what? I was working with experienced, trusted people, man, like Alec Boateng, Twin B, my A &R, Richard Antwi, my manager, Zion. Like, we just had a great union, man. Like Richard Antwi, like rest his soul, he passed away, but he was like a father figure and he was a senior and he was a music lawyer and he was a, you know a graduate like he was just such a like you walk in a room with him then it's like there's nothing to be scared of nothing to be scared of but and also as well they had they had so they had a record label called Levels which was a subsidiary of Ministry of Sound so but they had signed me because I'm the rapper's rapper so no one that pressure didn't enter the conversation because there was no expectation for hit records at all.

34:19Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it was just like, no, no, you're the rapper's rapper. You make good music as well. So just make some cool songs. Yeah. And then, yeah, the first single done the mad thing and then it was like, okay, now you're like, you're like actually a thing now. Like, this is a real thing.

34:36Mo Gilligan: Yeah, man. Because Traktor, it's like, it's one of those tracks where when you hear it and I remember it so vividly, you're like, yeah this is a this is a this is a smash and this is me as an audience member where I'm like yeah this is a banger this is a smash like you hear in the clubs you'd hear at a Sunday show do you know what I mean I'd always knew a record would be big is when I I heard it at Sunday show and it would bang because you're like oh well this song is is within the mainstream this ain't this ain't like our underground classics so when that that song is because I've also also find it it was at a time where like the longevity of a song would really last.

35:17Oh, yeah, bro.

35:18Mo Gilligan: And they start using it for adverts and stuff like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How does then that start to feel? Because now you're like, as much as it's a smash, it's a song that's like, what advert? There was an advert. It was a, it was, it was SB, bro. It was a Google Chrome advert. Yes, that's it. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jamal put man forward for that, bro. Yeah, yeah. Jamal, bro, that was a check, bro. The check was checking. the check was checking bro that Jamal rest his soul bro yeah man yeah put me food for that but yeah even the whole release schedule of music was weird back then because we went to the first play of it on radio I believe was in October but the release date was January okay so I remember like in October he gets his first play and then now we like you go and work the record now you go and do your interviews you go and and do PAs, and blah, blah, blah.

36:15And I'm like, yo, this song's getting off, bro. I'm like, yo, we need to bring the release date forward.

36:20Mo Gilligan: I'm calling an emergency meeting with Twin and Rich and Z. I'm like, trust me, trust me, trust me, this song needs to come out now. And Twin was like, bro, I'm like, no, they're just going to, like, linewire all of these things. I'm like, they're just going to download it, bro. Trust me, like, he's like, bro, he's like, it's a separate market, bro. He's like, this market, that are going to, the people that are going to buy this song, they wait for it to come out and buy it. He's like, in our world, we might, whatever to have it, do you get what I'm saying? But they're going to wait. I'm saying, bro, bro, trust me, bro, we're losing sales, bro.

36:53Mo Gilligan: Like, I'm even thinking, nah, like, we're going to, like, you're going to miss, like, you're messing it up, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Twin said to me when we, he's like, bro, trust me, this record, your life's going to change, bro. Your life's going to change, bro. And that's a serious thing to say to a wood you, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. the ends like what do you mean change for what like it's gonna no it's gonna change so i'm like let's not remember what you said bro let's not mess it up and then he was just like bro trust me and then that there was just like you know what i'm getting mad because i'm new here and he's experienced so listen to the guy do you know i'm saying yeah man and he was right came out in january and yeah he went to number five and that was that so when that song goes to number five it's you know being used with like the likes of Google Chrome and your life starts changing obviously the the fruits of your labour start coming plus some more you know what I mean it's like yes I'm harvesting a crop but I've only been growing corn you know but now I've got I've got a cashew nut tree I didn't even I didn't even plant this I didn't plan for that yeah so like when those fruits of your labour start coming because I know you work you worked with Adidas as well yeah that was and you was like one of the faces of Adidas I remember that advert you had with David Beckham yeah yeah that was the Olympic Olympic advert Wizzy Wow made that as well same producer the Alicia Dixon one the 50 pound beats one do you get what I'm saying so it's like yo stick with me bro we're gonna yeah yeah yeah you know what I'm saying we're gonna we're gonna it's gonna things are gonna happen how does that feel though when you start working with those brands like like Adidas because I remember you was a you was a focal point just with Adidas in general do you know what I mean when you do shows you'd have some you'd have some free stripes on wearing the shoes in the shops because I guess it's like for you like you know your dreams at the time was so attainable in the sense of I just want to meet a plugger from you know a radio station to perform at maybe Jazz Cafe to then you know you get signed and it is like the journey starts but it'd be so interesting to know like what it's like to then keep focusing when there is a brand that want you to be the face of the brand yeah yeah yeah because we all know that like in this industry those checks are bigger than the checks that keep us up late at night when we're trying to you know we're trying to write we're trying to come up with the visionary thing that we're like I've got this idea I've got to get it on paper yeah but I also know that with that yeah I don't even have to even work as hard to do that and you can get sidetracked with that as well bro sometimes Sometimes it was confusing.

39:34You know, like, you do your own show, your own tour at a loss. And then the brand wants you to do a 20-minute performance so you can pay for your whole tour to a guest list of 100 people. I'm like, I don't even have to sell a ticket. Like, it doesn't even make sense. You know what I'm saying? But man's just proper relationship-based, man. And there was, like, a great team working at Adidas. You know what I'm saying? Obviously, man always wore the brand as a kid as well. Yeah, yeah. and then like Paola Akuya Aisha they're just great people man and just like really because obviously where they work where they work they already they they understand it but it's like they're able to explain how it works so it's like we're like cool what do we do we come in there what do we do we just get a big deal like how's it work how's it work it's like no no no it's like you do that you do that that can happen then that can happen and then it's like oh okay and everything you know like when everything they say is you know it's coming to fruition so it's like cool and then yeah then they hit you up and be like yeah we're doing an advert for the Olympics and you're like wow like this is like the Olympics like I'm Jazzcaf do you get what I'm saying Jazzcaf playlist on one extra and one play from Master Steps on choice bro

40:54Mo Gilligan: and it's like Olympics it's like yeah cool and then it's like like you know like you're you're here now and it's like yeah different people in the advert of the athletes david beckham all of this stuff and it's like it's mad and like you know i remember about that as well there was like i said something about like in the lyric i can't remember the lyric but i was like maybe i said like you kicked the ball through saturn and i looked like that in the video and then i remember when he came out it was like oh man we've lost him illuminati illuminati Illuminati Illuminati Illuminati Illuminati Illuminati Illuminati Illuminati comments bro and I was just like so mad how like something that you just grafted for like it can like not that it can be ruined yeah but you know what I'm saying like people can not understand how you can get to something via hard work and think that it's some next higher power that's dragging you you know what I'm saying I'm the same kid that spent 540 pounds to press up 1000 CDs bro that took it that the shop only wants to take five of do you get what I'm saying on sale and return in Manchester and I'm from Tottenham in London bro do you know what I'm saying like that's the kid I am not there's no ritual or there's no you know what I'm saying like there's no I wouldn't know a thing about that and it's like but them little things were like little eye openers as to like rah man like this is what Jay-Z and all of that be getting all the time bro people are saying like they have something when you do something great that it's like they can't just do something great he must have who did you sacrifice sacrifice bro but yeah that was a great like soul gassed and you know you know what was sick about it as well like just like my gran was alive to see that and like just like how yeah I love my gran to bitch bro like love her to bitch bro and even like like how proud my mum is do you know what I'm saying like my mum show it like her friends have you seen this is an advert you know like have you seen like you know like that yeah because you remember homework's not great school reports ain't great like social worker like bad whatever whatever whatever and it's like when now when you hear your mum talking about you it's like you know what I'm saying like it's like that is like more than anything because like so woman like I remember my nan before she passed she was in the hospital yeah and I was talking to her on the phone and she's like you gonna come look for me I'm like yeah I'm coming tomorrow and she was like oh okay he's like because the nurse them love you you know they love your song I'm like how do they know of me she's like no because they were asking me who's my grandson like you know I'm like they asked you who's your grandson yeah randomly of everyone else on the ward they've asked me who's my grandson and you know I told them it's you you know man I told them like you're gonna come down you know like them little things it's like granny was proud bro you know what I'm saying like my grandson this one that was doing the Michael Jackson in the front room you know what I'm saying I knew there was something about this kid and that even talking about it now it's like it's I love that like the narrative for me changed like even within the family or whatever yeah is that what you've always done it for as a driving force because I know you said while we've been talking is that you know your goal is to like to be the best but then it's like the role that even I've got in the job that I do I just care about what my family and friends think and I just want to make them proud so all the other noise starts to just go away a little bit in some ways bro yeah I would simplify things bro as in like at first I needed my estate to care and know that this guy is so like I would rap into them I might even have been annoying them the way I'm saying I've got a new thing you know let me spread it to you let me spread it to you I'm rap to you know what I'm saying like that might be annoying but they felt the passion and it's just like I think when you just like just simplify things man like you you want to be good at something put the time in like find other people that want to be good at the same thing and put the time in with them you learn faster when there's two of you doing it you know what I'm saying like maybe you find five of you you know what I'm saying you made a group now sick like you're all on it's all common goals you know what I'm saying and it's like everything was really really simple bro but it was always like I was always even like my first engineer Oscar so much people record with him but like I used to I would spend time talking to him and be like I'd be like Oscar how come like when I get in my car and play my song and my volume's up at 20 but then when I put Nas' song on and my volume's up at 20 his one sounds louder and thicker and I was always intrigued and he was like oh that's because it is italian he's like that's because they've got the parts and they get it mixed and they get it mastered so i'm like okay one what are the parts and he's like well when the producer sends you the beat ask him to send you the files i'm like okay what what comes in the files yeah and he's like then you can solo all the instruments so he's like i'm like oh so he's like then you've got the drums on this channel the keys the guitar the chords and i'm like oh but i'm like so if i do that then we can mute the chords for four bars or like add an effect on them and then and he's like yeah and i'm like oh so now i can so then now like the studio turned from just going there and recording to now the producer coming with the files and us going through the files and like helping make the beat now do you know what i'm saying and then now it's like now who mixes who can I get to mix like so now when I get in the car and I'm a and b and my song and jay-z song and I'm like yeah we're getting closer we're getting closer to the quality like the thickness yeah do you know what I'm saying and I'm like how come and he's like yeah sometimes you know that maybe to get the producer to layer the drums I'm like yeah we layer the drums you know what I'm saying like I'm always just trying to compete just to get better and then of course you buck other artists that know other things or other producers like I remember one time Viz from Ace and Viz he got me a beat from Dready um from my very first album and obviously Dready's Soul Solid's producer so he's more experienced he's worked in the bigger studios so when he sends his instrumental now I'm like rah his one's louder than everyone else's on the project like what do we do here and he's like you have to master the other ones.

47:38So they're all the same volume. But it was like, I just became so obsessed with the journey of how much more can go into a record. Because before you just send me a beat, I rap on it and I put it out. Whereas now I'm like, I'm actually in the song now. I'm deciding when the keys are being played and all of these stuff. And now I'm with the mixer and the master. It's just a, I think there's two things that you need. you need to be obsessed and you need to be curious

48:08Mo Gilligan: and I think obsession keeps you in the studio until 6am and curiosity makes sure that you come back tomorrow them two words is kind of what I don't know gets you better like yeah because that's a lot of quality that goes into making music where sometimes I feel like the outcome can be quantity of and you you know I'm only saying it as a fan where you can hear musicians where they're like yeah I made this many albums and this many mixtapes and we can go in a studio and make you know I've heard the stories of yeah we go in and we can make an album at this time but you seem to really like focus on the quality more than anything you know when it comes to making music which is is it for me is so interesting to hear but like where do you think that that stemmed from because i think anyone who focuses on quality as much as you can compare in here there's it's stemmed from something where you say ah okay like i the quality has to be of a of a of an order that says yeah even if i i make one track yeah but the quality is so good that all right i didn't make 13 14 yeah but the quality where do you think that comes from in in your whether it's your upbringing where your surroundings linses or bro honestly bro like i don't are you a perfectionist i don't know i wouldn't even say a perfectionist i rush through my homework i tidy my room as fast as i can you know i'm saying like i'll throw stuff under the thing like you know i'm saying so it looks like it's tidy but you lift up the cover and i've never i've never found a thing that i water like this this is the only thing where it's like a water like that you know i'm saying to perfection bro like and i think it's yes it's the obsession the curiosity and i think the competitiveness as well because i think even like for someone like yourself like when you you you might go you you do a comedy show you do a show and then you maybe you go and watch someone else's show do you know i'm saying you might go to watch ricky javet and you'd be like bro he had a screen you know that's exactly what i'm trying to say like and you're like i didn't know you could have a screen you know like sometimes we just didn't know like sometimes you just yeah don't know but i'm like yeah it's the ones that go to watch the other show like don't just watch richard blackwood what did the blackwood obviously do you know what i'm saying but also go and watch jack d yeah do you know what i'm saying like go else and see like and that's me like i went to watch kalashnikov we went to nottingham someone was people were performing like anywhere someone's performing i just want to watch i said then i was like then you realize that like raw actually i know a band so i'm like you can play guitar so i'm like would you come studio like yeah man like yeah what would you charge to come studio it's like 100 pounds a day 100 pound a day come studio crazy come studio come studio now we've got guitars on this like you know i'm saying it's always the curiosity bro and just like how sometimes it doesn't work as well and you're like i'm not going to use that one you know bro i'll pay you i'll pay you though but like you might not use it like it just didn't fit but you had to try but you have to try it yeah do you know what i'm saying that's the curiosity yeah because the reason why i also mentioned the quality because i feel like you as a musician the the quality of music that you give us when I think of like your fire in the booth for example which you know Charlie Slough says it he's like yeah anyone coming after this I don't know man and that was nine years ago yeah and it's still like I don't want to feel like I'm saying the one to beat but yeah yeah yeah you know like you ever used to watch Top Gear yeah and they had the leaderboard of who done the fastest.

52:35Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're like, it's been so long,

52:37Mo Gilligan: I don't even know who's number one anymore because no one's touching that. Yeah. So like, and that just goes to testament to like your quality, where it's interesting you bring up the reference water because the way that you rap as a musician, right? I mean, you make music. It's very effortless. It's very much like water, where it's just it's very pure it's very effortless and also I'd use the word transparent because I feel like you're in a space that's so vulnerable and sometimes we're used to seeing rap with you know rap can always it can be very very aggressive do you know what I mean and I think that's just part of the sound in some ways but you do it in a way where it's just very calm the flow is very did you hear what you just said and you never do that did you hear yeah because bro I can't lie but some rappers do that I'm like bro lie on me man I've listened to this music my whole life bro I got it I got it I got it I got it but you also have this unique way of like like where you're like hold on wait hold on it's like hold on play that again okay I feel like I get it and then you ask your friend he's like no what he's like nah bro I think he's saying this you think that you know when you ever watch a film and you you might watch the same film as someone and the end of the film you're like what's your thoughts on it you thought that I thought this wow that's crazy never looked it like that way that's what your music's like where you take it in and someone's taking it in a different way but it's very pure very transparent the flow is very calming to the point where you're like fucking hell hold on hang on a minute let me just take a minute like that obviously comes from your your quality as an artist so like where you are now in your life where you've got these young artists and also people you know you work with you're also one of those artists that you know the people you work with like for example at Avelino for example yeah yeah where you worked alongside them and for any for any artist coming up there's someone that they emulate but also someone that you're in a position to say yeah man I think you're cold like let's do something together yeah like a lot of people don't always do that and you seem to also take a lot of a a bit of a backseat when it comes to stuff like that where does that come from do you know what yeah it's a long question I'm so sorry yeah yeah no no no I just with Avelino in particular I just heard him I thought he was cold and I was just like yeah come studio man and he comes studio and just like it's like I'll be like yeah let's work on a tune today like first I'd come studio just to like get his vibe whatever he probably came studio I was making a song whatever cool cool come studio again come studio worked on a record but come studio again but he I see that he was noticing that I don't write I don't write nothing down so I just walk around, make it up and then go in the booth and then record it so I could see he was like, bro, you don't write it down but then the next time we'll come studio I could see now he's not writing it down do you get what I'm saying?

56:06Mo Gilligan: so I'm like, okay you want to fight I love that and remember that thing, what I'm saying with Gets, the iron sharpening iron and we're pushing each other so I'm like, cool, let's do another tune do some more tunes and I'm like when we're doing songs yeah I feel like I work best with rappers that are trying to kill me and trying to out rap me because I'm like I feel like we have a we have a default level like I say like my default level is level 6 but then when I feel like I'm in trouble I can get to level 8 but I might not always do level 8 you know what I'm saying until I feel okay yeah yeah yeah alright then cool now we get to level 8 but I'm like alright he's making me go to level 8 level 9 and I'm saying alright cool I'm on level 9 let's do another song let's see if you can do that again like yeah alright now we're at level 10 I'm like listen and then I'm just like you know what I'm like shall we do a project and he was just like what do you mean I was like a project let's just do a project I don't know I was like I think we could call this I'm sick man like Young Fire or Flame I don't know sound like that makes sense and he was just like yeah so I was like yeah cool let's book out studio for two weeks made the project made the project in two weeks it was just yeah but it was just like intense though like going home to sleep for four hours coming back and going again and going again but it was just like that thing like it just reminded me of like it reminded me of me like trying to get more studio time and not having the money or you know what I'm saying trying to paying the 50 pounds for the instrumentals like it just reminded me of that like that hunger that just made me more hungry you know what i'm saying i'm like yeah i need i just need that energy so yeah we just just done it and it's like it's not even something to be over thought like you know like when i i didn't even tell anyone i was doing it we just done it and then i was like cool i got this tape um saying to my manager yeah i got this tape that uh i've done with abelino and just put it out wherever and he's just like oh okay like you know like you say to people like right sure you put it out yeah why not like it's hard and just yeah put it out and then look it just like it sparked something because i feel like people could just when they listen to it they could hear you know i'm saying mr miyagi and daniel's son do you know i'm saying that's what they could hear and that's what they could feel so yeah done like it done what it done because it just it was organic and it was honest and it was just raw do you ever watch those things on youtube where you've got people that do the reactions yeah i think i've seen some of your reactions yeah yeah i love it I love it and it's interesting when I've seen one I think it might be Beers and Bars them two guys they're big up there man I really like yeah yeah yeah they go in bro they go in bro yeah yeah yeah and they really they really check out UK stuff but like what I love is that the American reactions like what man what hey man play that hey man

59:14Mo Gilligan: when we was talking before you know you you were saying you was like my goal is you know my goal back then was to be the best yeah a lot of people will regard you in the in the country as as the best how do you accept that because besides a musician that I know you as you're very humble like how do you accept that are you are you a person that says yeah fucking am bruv or are you just like hey man i let i let the people do the talking i just want to make yeah i'm kind of like that's like because it's almost like you know you that was your goal yeah and then when it comes to conversations when it comes to okay cool who's who's one who's a harley smithers let's have those debates and those conversations it's like we're going back to what we said before your name's top five or if not top three.

1:00:12Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's nice, bro. You love that. But you have to understand that you have to be okay. If you're going to live for the chairs, you die by the booze. So if you're going to be, if it's going to make you them saying that you're the best, it's going to break you when they say that you're not. So you have to take it with a sensible pinch of salt. Do you know what I'm saying? Like I hear it and I feel it and I love it and I love that because they're at you, bro. They're in your... Like, no one ain't touching me. Like my guy, they're riding for me, bro. I love that. You get what I'm saying?

1:00:55Because they know, they probably know me that I'm not going to come on here and be like,

1:00:57Mo Gilligan: nah, trust me, it's me, it's me, it's me. Like, I'm not going to say anything. Yeah. You get what I'm saying? But I'll see it and I love that. It's love. But at the same time, I'm like, I'm just focused on what I'm doing and how I can get better. You know what I'm saying? Because the best is also subjective and within the best it normally comes with a period of time. Yeah, yeah, of course. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's like how I'm more focused on how I can make, I can elongate the period of time. That's more the focus. Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? I wouldn't want to be the best for one week.

1:01:33Do you know what I'm saying? that I wouldn't want that that would be crazy

1:01:37Mo Gilligan: that's pointless you know what I'm saying because even Adele said like you're one of her favourite lyricists she's from Enns Adele's a local Tottenham yeah so even to have people like that that's still you know in a different field as well you know still appreciate your artistry well I feel like musicians do as a whole anyway but are there other times where you're just like I hear what you mean I'm saying but hey man Adele said I was the favourite man bro I've had some of them weird kick me slap me box me in the face moments bro like because you played at the 2012 the torch ceremony relay thing right yeah I carried the torch yeah that is insane it was heavy you know it was heavy bro and everyone was carrying it in one hand so I said I'll do it in one hour so it was heavy bro way down I was like it comes through like Ali bro like yeah like you know bro like there's some things that you'd have like a rough plan and a rough guide and then something else like bro I got a song with Sade bro like phone Sade phoned my phone bro like to you know to talk about the record get the record done get the song done song never came out but to get but that was like you know like you come off the phone and look on your phone like who the hell am I bro that's mad do you know what I'm saying like who like you know like I have to look in the mirror like bro am I me like is that what this even like you know like them things there it's like bro like yeah I just I think you're incredible da da da da da I'm just like yeah you too like yeah you know I turned to some child bro I was like yeah thank you thank you thank you love everything you do so like yeah you're good too you know but that must feel like you know going back to the Adele thing though like getting those applaudits from artists in different decades but different genres as well you know you work with people like example like Elliot's I really like him man that's my guy bro he's a he's a really good guy he took me so much likewise bro likewise yeah yeah yeah he took me so much he took me out to tour bro yeah yeah he took me out to tour bro 100 % took me out to tour what did he teach you in terms of touring just like so when so after Tractor bam Tractor's number five so now it kind of moved the goalpost of where we were and what was what we was to do next you know what I'm saying so then like Twin and Night they had an idea I think you should just sample this record sample the record the producers record Future Cart sample the Fool's Gold Stone Roses and it was like yeah see if we could get example on the hook man like both on the same label like you both admire and respect each other like he come studio and he was like even like even like the crafting of a hit record as well like like the intention because to be honest Chakta was a fluke and I and I and I say fluke yeah but I knew the instrumental was special I knew the hook was special and I knew my thing then always used to be like I want things that work floor to ceiling so I'm a man you'll see me in the Yardi raves in Tottenham so I was like if it can play in there and it can play in whiskey mist or something like that that's floor to ceiling everything's covered so I'm like cool I need to speak I know who I need to speak to I'm speaking to my people I'm saying show everyone's saying show back then but I'm saying it Jeremy Carl shot like Jeremy Carl big thing at the time do you know what I'm saying like I'm slightly moving intentional but at the same time I'm slightly just vibing but whereas example when we made Unorthodox with the chorus he was like cool yeah and then I'll say that line because that's the line that they'll sing back and then and then when we do the bridge we'll do that we'll do it like a chant and then so then like he was very like he was so intentional like he understood it so well and then just to see like when we performed the record like all of the parts that he thought would be what they would you know be turned out to be what he thought he knew they would be so I was just like yeah he's just he's very like he's so smart bro and I was like okay that taught me a thing about records I was like okay cool I could move with a bit more intention at times instead of just feeling my way through what does touring feel like for you touring is work man it's beautiful you get to reach everyone it's work it's work because at that time when we was touring Anul 4 Docks was being released so that meant we might as well take advantage of and we're on a tour together we might as well take advantage of the cities we're going to be in which means going to do the breakfast shows which you know the breakfast show on the radio is 6 to 9 or something like that you know what I mean so you do the show you do your sound check like early afternoon you do your show the show finishes because we're using a band which is quite expensive we're doing club shows to pay for the tour so I'll do your club PA so say I'm in Manchester we might do a club PA in maybe Preston do you know what I'm saying or after part of your money but then the next show is in Liverpool so we after that PA we drive to Liverpool stuff in 3, 4, 5 o 'clock in the morning we're going to do the breakfast show you know what I'm saying so get your ass up sound awake don't just get your ass up be awake because it's a radio and you're selling your song so go and do that then you go lay down for a bit eat see the city do some other promo da da da da da so I just remember being like that 2, 3 weeks felt like six months.

1:08:01And I remember at the time just thinking like, what the hell does Rihanna do? Because I'm just doing this in England. But she's doing this internationally. So throw time zones into it. Like throw so much different things into it. I was just like, but an example was just like, he's like, bro, don't get too wasted. You know, like all of them little tricks, bro.

1:08:22Mo Gilligan: It's interesting because the music he comes from as well. I say comes from because I know he lacks, he likes rapping as well, isn't he? He can spit as well. But especially around that time where he's got them house songs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, he was Festival, Glastonbury's. Do you know what I mean? It's got the drop and then... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The CO2. Yeah, yeah. The pyro. Listen, man, that's one thing as a comic I would love to have of like to tell a joke and then I had fire once bro I wasted the fire you wasted it I did not need fire they don't want it they don't want it they don't want it bro it was coming out I was like flames flames yeah listen after that I was like and then you find out how much it costs you said per press and all of this stuff you don't need fire but sometimes like and that's like within like art you realise there is a place of self-indulgency.

1:09:30Do you know what I'm saying? Like, The Fire was probably more for you

1:09:32Mo Gilligan: than the show. And even making records or what record you want to go with as the single sometimes is like, cool. Is this a song that everybody's going to like or is this your favourite on the album? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, sometimes we can enter like a bit of some self-indulgent territory. like I'd always like now having the experience of that now like when I'm in with artists and like some say like singers and they're doing super BVs and all of that and I'm like is that for the record or is that for you do you know what I'm saying and it's like yeah but it's good to it's good to be asked that question yeah you know what I'm saying and you come out the other side of it and know like okay maybe that's a no like it's until you look back like two years later and you're like didn't really need to do that you know yeah got so much money and it's like did they laugh harder yeah you know what I'm saying I remember coming out to fire at the O2 and then coming off stage and halfway through I never forget there was a guy who was sleeping and I was right in the front and he was just like this I said bruv man's got fire on the stage you know and he's sleeping it taught me so much about performing That man that slept through the fire.

1:10:55Oh, bro, man.

1:10:56Mo Gilligan: I remember coming off stage and was like, fuck, man. All of that. And my man slept through the, I don't know the whole show, but I just seen him sleep. I couldn't, I couldn't unsee it. Yeah. It's always like, you know, I don't know if you ever had this as a performer where you have a vision of a show that didn't go the way you wanted. And you just remembered the smallest thing from it. And you're like, I'll never forget that man sleeping. Yeah. I'll never. I was like, oh, bro, man. I didn't care about the other rest of the people, but that's what we cling on to yeah it's like you've got 10 ,000 comments sure was great sure was great sure was the shittiest thing I've ever seen that's the guy you replied to yeah yeah yeah shut up you dickhead do you get what I'm saying like one person out of 9 ,999 comments yeah man I don't know why our eye is trained to see that I've tried to like over the years train my eye I've got better I've trained my eye to see the other side it's definitely the Pisces in us though yeah that can take we put it's like you're saying you put so much into the quality of something but it's the one thing that derails it's like when someone puts oil in the water yeah it doesn't matter how much you spin it yeah that blob still stays there do you know what I mean um and also where you can't unsee it you're now you know you're a creative director with Def Jam UK how did this role come apart come back so this is so the A &R that I'm talking about Alec Bolten twin B who signed me Alec is 027 Death Jam is Alex he's the president so within that like throughout since like from even from before Tractar like great relationship always talking music during Tractar making the albums he's like I was even at a different label one time and got that label he was at a different label and got that label to pay him to still be my A you know what I'm saying like he's always been mad close to me throughout with the music as well and just even even with stuff that he's worked on like sometimes just getting an A or like what do you think of this like oh I think that you know okay cool like we really it's like we're two Ares of the same head you know or two Ares on a different head if that even makes sense so yeah when he you know was you know was putting a company together and whatnot he was just like look man I've just got this vision it's like I don't know if you know if you ever thought about working on this side of things but you know some of the conversations that he obviously works with Stormzy so some of the conversations he's had with Stormzy he was like were the conversation like Stormzy had said he'd spoken to Wretch and Wretch and he's like so much other artists that you've had conversations with they really value your opinion do you know what i'm saying and like your take on things so it's like i don't know if you've ever thought about doing it in this capacity and i was like no i hadn't to be honest like i was like like as in like what what would i even do you know what i'm saying what is even the title of it like what do you even do like what yeah what is the actual role of that but then i went and i thought and i thought you know what it's mad because Avellino Storm's like bare artists like just I'm an open phone book do you know what I'm saying so I'm like right and that's only ever just for the love it's just like oh love for that bro no problem man cool like even artists like they want to do a video I'm like yeah I'll play me a video man I'm just trying to help like I just want to see more I just want to see more more more more more of what we do so I was like right this just felt weird to like now like to be paid for it almost do you know what I'm saying like oh okay okay that's you get paid for doing it yeah yeah like that's kind of crazy but all right cool like so yeah just yeah i'm creative director over there so i just add value in any creative way possible possible basically is it hard being on the other side though now as a musician because i guess there is a musician point of view which you are as a musician but now you're also on the other side you're in I don't know you're in the office yeah yeah yeah do you know what I mean as opposed to the studio yeah so what's that like what's that side of it like when you're in the office I think I think it benefits the artist because sometimes things are in your best interest but sometimes when the label asks you to do something you can feel like oh the labels was asking me to do something.

1:15:37Do you know what I'm saying? But also as well, I've had many years of experience so I understand and I can be like, I can get to the root of what a potential tension can be. So it can be like, what makes you feel uncomfortable about this? I don't want to be on TikTok. What makes you not want to be on TikTok? I don't want to be on TikTok because I don't want to be doing stupid trends. Okay, don't do stupid trends. and then it's like oh yeah yeah alright cool yeah let's make the account like it could be something as simple as that do you know what I'm saying but whereas sometimes if when it feels like it's a label telling you you need to be on TikTok or whatever do you know what I'm saying then it feels like now you don't even want to be on TikTok because they're asking you to it's not even because of you and I'm also the person that sat with my label and said I don't want to be on TikTok

1:16:32Mo Gilligan: why don't I want to be on TikTok because I don't want to do silly trends that was what I was saying but it's because the label was asking me you know what I'm saying and then I'm like you know I have to ask myself why don't you want to be on TikTok I'm like I don't want to see you we think I'm going to be on there doing dance trends and I'm like yeah for real just don't do the dance trends just do what you do on Instagram on TikTok and then it's something like that it's just that simple sometimes it just depends who it comes from so I guess it's almost like creating a bridge between the artist and the label exactly that and meeting them in the middle in some ways because i think a lot of us when we think of creative director we're thinking okay i know creative director of i know kanye working at x brand or you've got like virgil or working with louis vuitton yeah yeah but we just see the end product we don't know what that means also from a music point of view as well yeah yeah yeah you know and also I guess even for yourself how you might feel conflicted of being on the other side where you're like no like I'm on the musician's side yeah yeah but also I don't want this to feel like a conflict of interests for feeling like I'm on the musician's side but I know I can talk to the label and they will listen yeah yeah yeah do you know what it is I think I don't think I could do it if I ever felt anti-label I've never really been anti-label like I said like the dream was to get signed do you know what I'm saying back then like it was like if I could just get signed like this would just change things and lo and behold I got signed and it it changed things do you know what I'm saying it was exactly what I thought it was and I just like I guess like within any industry there's scrimps and scrapes innit but you I'm kind of like I'm just mad understanding like I understand like even if me and a label part ways I will understand why.

1:18:26Do you know what I'm saying? I will get like, okay, maybe this project wasn't. You know what I'm saying? Like you can have a, I've just got a different kind of understanding. But I think more than anything, it's just communication, man. And I think I've got a lot of ideas. Some artists just ask me to ask me to come studio sometimes. Do you know what I'm saying? Just input sometimes. Some I've helped with writing. It's so much different things. and I think now everything's kind of meshing into one. I don't think you can no longer say I do A &R. It's like, because A &R now does a hint of marketing and I don't think you can just say I just do marketing because marketing now does a hint of A &R and you might even be able to hold the camera yourself now and I think everything's, all the lines are getting blurred in a good way.

1:19:17Do you know what I'm saying? So I think, yeah, I'm just like, I'm flexible. I say that to say that.

1:19:20Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Yeah. And you're rending some ways where you've created such a lasting legacy, but also you're one of those artists that's really created quality over quantity. Because you're still releasing music now. You released your album not so long ago. what do you look at in terms of like your legacy in some ways where you had very humble dreams what i'd say in a sense of i just want to perform at jazz cafe which i think for artists now they're like now that's i don't know how it works there but it's like well yeah book it if you've got the social media audience, it's a call. But I know back then that you couldn't do that.

1:20:12You had to pay, you had to put the money out from the venue. And they would still have to be like, well, I don't know anyone's going to come here.

1:20:17Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah. You know, even if you could. And that was, I think a lot of people forget that where, I remember this because I wanted to book, I think it was Soho Theatre to do a comedy night. I went there and I had a tour and I was like, I want to do a small comedy night. And the woman was like, yeah it's a tour and then I emailed and I was trying to do it with myself and I was like yeah it cost I don't know I think at the time it may be like two grand and I was like I don't have that like I just don't have that I don't know why you gave me the tour knowing that I came on up with my backpack after after working in retail like you could see I didn't have two grand but wasting the woman's time yeah but like it's the same thing where I knew at the time I was like, I want to do it here because it's, you know, it's in central.

1:21:07Mo Gilligan: They got stage, it has lights. We can film, we can make it a regular thing. Yeah. And when I look at it now, it's like, well, yeah, I could do my own shows and sell them out wherever I want in the country or whatever. But, um, there was a time where like the, the dream felt so unattainable, but also when you look at it now, it's so simple in some ways. Um, so how, How do you look at the legacy that you want to create for the next, you know, wretch whose dream you want to either be as simple as performing at the jazz cafe or as big as saying, I want to be the best. But I think the beautiful thing now is there's no reason if, if, if, if, if I start rapping today, there's no reason why I'm not saying I want to do the O2 Arena because D block done it central done it nine's done it do you know i'm saying um who am i missing out tiny temper done it um you know i'm saying like it's it's it's realistic like my my view on a jazz cab was because that's what that's where we was yeah in venues do you know i'm saying that was the venue So it's like now I had goals and dreams.

1:22:29Their goals and that goalpost should be so beyond where my dreams, do you know what I'm saying, even start. Your goalpost should be beyond mine now. And I think that's just testament to the hard work that, you know, the foundation layers have done. Do you know what I'm saying? The Giggsies have done and the Kano's have done and the Getzies have done and the Stormzies have done. and yeah you should be saying like I would say a dream or a goal would be to perform at a stage at Glastonbury but now we've seen Stormzy headline Glastonbury your dream or a goal should be one day I want to headline do you know what I'm saying like the goalpost has moved and I think that's like that's all each generation is supposed to do inspire the next do you know what I'm saying and show them what's possible like a dream to do the Olympic advert Wretch has done it now do you know what I'm saying so a goal it should be I want the Olympic song do you know what I'm saying I want a song for the Olympics like it should our dream should be their goals basically yeah oh Wretch man I'm so glad this has been so overdue because

1:23:42Mo Gilligan: what you're saying is so interesting about helping them move the goalpost because I feel like what you do with young artists and you know whether you're that bridge of the artist and the record label and being someone that an artist who's coming up and was like oh bro like i admire your work and i just wanted to see what you thought about it you know not even like oh like do you want to jump on the track like i'd love to get a feature from you yeah yeah i just really care about your opinion you know yeah and that is sometimes more valuable than anything because every artist who comes up has someone that they've looked up to but to feel like like going back to when I when I first met you it was like oh right man like you're a real person you're cool like you bought me a drink man yeah yeah yeah like and I feel like you're talking about that goalpost but having the person to assist is equally as important for the next generation you know what I mean secret putting it yeah it It takes one thing to score the goal or sign a deal and have the record, but it doesn't get there without the helping hand of someone else.

1:24:53Mo Gilligan: And the fact that you do that and you are doing that is testament to who you are. So yeah, bro, thank you so much for doing this. No, no, no, no. It's love. Come on, my guy, man. But most importantly, there's a lot of musicians out there that will listen to this and will give them a helping hand. And whether there's comedians as well, you know your your route has always been again like like water do you know i mean it streams it goes up it goes down and beat that's the thing as well and when i say down i don't mean that as like no no i mean in terms of like you know like the meteoric rises but also it still flows in a way where you're like yeah like you don't just have to be a waterfall do you know what i mean like there's more to it where you can be a creative director and now i'm still in the position.

1:25:43Mo Gilligan: I still make music, I still release music, but I can also help a bunch of artists and be, you know, someone who helps people when you're at record label, go to the studio. Also realise, hey, I still make music, you know? Like, I'm not the uncle yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not, it's not, yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not shoes off in the yard yet. You know what I'm saying? The shoes are still by the door, bro. People still want your music, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're still like, hey, come on, Rich, man. That's what, that, that, my, my thing is, is like, I've always like, I've never wanted to be I don't want to be remember Mike Tyson when he was fighting at the end yeah just for a bit too long and he's like what happened tonight Mike and he's like I broke my back my back is broken spinal yeah like I'm not going to be I don't want to be I don't want to be that so I don't know when it's time to fair enough you know what I'm saying like when I hear something and I'm like oh I can't do that yeah yeah yeah or there's a new drum pattern and I'm like I can't rap to that like I can't you know, when you can't, and I can.

1:26:44Mo Gilligan: Yeah. I can. So I still am. Yeah. Oh, it's been a pleasure, Rich, man. Thank you, bro. Thank you. My friend, this has been your beginning, middle and end. Thank you so much. My G. Hey, what's up? Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Now, a lot goes in to making each episode. I know you hear my voice, but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it. And if you did enjoy it, I'd really, really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars. And if you also have the time, please leave us a review it's always appreciated and we love reading the comments and of course we want to keep making it better thank you for listening and have a great day peace