UK Rap Royalty – Giggs

0:00Mo Gilligan: Hey, what's happening people? My name is Mo Gilligan and this is the Beginning, Middle and End podcast. Now this is where I'm going to be asking some of my favourite people about how they started, where they are now and the legacy they want to leave. Now my guest this week is an absolute treat. Oh my god, we have a true pioneer of the UK music scene. From an interesting background to DJing, mixing reggae vinyls to everybody in the estate in SE15 to becoming a globally recognised artist. One, I would say, that has opened the doors for many artists around the UK and that has shaped the sound of UK black music.

0:41Mo Gilligan: Now, he's here to talk about how you keep making music when so many things are against you. and also speaking about the next chapter to solidify his legacy. He's from SE15. He's also known as the landlord. Please welcome to the podcast, Giggs. How you been otherwise, though, bruv? You all right? Yeah, man, it's good, man. Just here, bro. The last time we spoke was you had your party, innit? Yeah, Giggs, mister. I'm pissed off. That looked mad, innit? That looked good. You threw a good party, you know? Yeah, come on, man. You threw a very good party. Mature parties, innit? Yeah, but like, what was the one?

1:18The Halloween one. Oh, yeah, that was a pleasure. That was very good. That was more mad than I thought it was going to be.

1:23Mo Gilligan: What I liked about it, it felt, it was like, because you know what I like when it, because you like Halloween, isn't it? You like Halloween and stuff, isn't it? Not really. Do you know where it is? Because to be honest, like, I weren't even allowed to do Halloween when I was a youth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I remember, like, so, so my brothers, you see, like, my brothers spent and Ghana and that. YG. Obviously, they grew up with their mum. So I used to see them doing trick-or-treating, Penny for the Guy. Remember Penny for the Guy? I used to see them doing that. I thought, I want to do Penny for the Guy.

2:00Then I remember I went home to my mum once.

2:02Mo Gilligan: Yeah, mum, can I do trick-or-treat? She went mad. What? This devil thing? Are you mad? Don't even... I didn't even ask again. I used to watch all the kids do it. So I never really... Halloween wasn't really, you get me? Then when ML was growing up and his mum was like, yeah, I'm going to take, and I used to be like, nah, the devil tick because you're still, you know those ones like, it ain't even been proved to me as the devil tick, I ain't read nothing, that's just what my mum said, you know those ones that say, it's just set in stone now, isn't it? Yeah, man, yeah, yeah. So then for years, I never, then one time, I went with my younger kids who I got now, and it was nice like them getting to see I felt bad for ML you know all them years I didn't even go once with ML like but them times the hood as well knocking doors man's gigs now I'm a gangbanger like you know what I'm saying like knocking doors man's outside the door and like look you know what I mean you don't know whose door you're knocking it says a different time but now I'm in like a nice neighbourhood because growing up Halloween was more you would go to like the more like posher areas so we would go to like Dulwich Village so you know Dulwich Village where you've got the big houses and stuff for real villages yeah yeah that's it so where did you grow up so I grew up so basically you know like the back of Champion Hill Estate so we grew up there in ghetto nah so like you know East Dulwich on Dokono Hill yeah to the left of it oh you're talking about the big circle yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so I grew up there so like from birth to like 15 then from 15 we moved to Peckham so then like doing trick or treat you'd have to go to more wealthy areas because you know they're going to give you sweets and chocolate and yeah yeah yeah so speaking about your upbringing I didn't know but you you started off as a DJ when you was young you were playing like Raga and how did so what your influence to music then what was it about DJing was it just because I grew up in a household where like Sundays were like the days where you had to do like your chores Of course, cleaning up.

4:12Was that a Saturday for me? Oh, was that a Saturday for you? Yeah, that was a Saturday. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

4:16Mo Gilligan: So my mum's playing Galaxy FM and stuff like that. What was it like for you growing up? But yeah, no, my mum, she just used to buy bare records still. Them times it was a record thing, innit? Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? You buy music on vinyl. So, yeah, my mum, she used to buy bare records, K-pop and Bourdieu, but then she would buy hip-hop as well. Yeah, yeah. Like, flipping it, was it them times? I don't know, like Naughty by Nature and them kind of days, like it was just records, records, records in the house. Did it feel like DJing at the time at such a young age just felt like, because I felt like everyone's introduction to music, whenever I speak to musicians, it's always where there's music around.

4:56Mo Gilligan: You know, we had James Blake on the pod and his dad used to do music. So, like, you know, when you're just surrounded by something, it just gives you this. Oh, like, I want to I want to I want to try and spin it back. you know what I mean yeah everything in my house was music and my my brother Stefan his dad used to sing as well okay he used to sing like lovers rock music his name his name was Mike and he used to like do shows and that his thing was ringing like in the in the hood kind of thing for the galleys you know the lovers rock thing like you know what I'm saying so he had a little following and that you don't know he he was probably like a gigs like mixtape days gigs.

5:41Okay. You know them ones? You hear me? When a man was popping off in the streets. You hear me? It was one of them kind of.

5:47Mo Gilligan: So my era of that was more, we had the phones. So you would be sharing, you had the mixtapes, but you'd be sharing tracks through Bluetooth. So the Sony Ericsson days. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was him when I was growing up. So I used to do things, go studio, man's around like sounds and that. like so yeah it's just always music then yeah same thing you want to do a little scratch mash up your mum's records and that and then now you want to scratch you get me so then my mum got me like a mini hi-fi them times used to get the mini hi-fis with the like tape deck and the radio tuner and the turntable on the top that was worth back in the day as well like if you went to someone's house and it had that hi-fi system because the top would open up my granddad had one the top would open up and then you had different like layers of the high no no that's the proper thing you're talking about the real thing this was like the like 50 pound thing oh the Alba one with the small little speakers he's street walking yeah like you know this was one of them for the best because my mum got that for me because I used to play music with swearing in it yeah yeah yeah them times like I started hearing like NWA and that and it was like that's the first time I heard music with swearing And we're like, this is mad.

7:07This is hard. And then I borrowed that tape from my uncle. Then I brought that home. And my mom said, yeah, you can play it, but play it in your room. So then she got me the mini hi-fi so I can play tapes and records.

7:20Mo Gilligan: Okay. So then that's when I started scratching. But then when you scratch that thing, it just jumps. Because it's not made for that. So now I want the turntable. So then I ended up getting one turntable. Then I used to scratch on that. and try and join it up with a mini hi-fi. Then I got another turntable and I just built it up. And then I just used to DJ and open my window wide and people used to come and sit outside and I'd just be DJing to the estate. Oh, sick. How did you find that Peckham growing up started to shape your culture in terms of, obviously now where you have such a, like your sound is so, you've created in terms of your sound your persona but how would you feel that like peckham shaped that for you growing up with with peckham especially north peckham estate before they knocked it down when it was there like in the 80s it wasn't like it wasn't a glamorous place essentially but at the same time there was a massive community there still community you know i was i was on gloucester okay but yeah the community yeah it was you know I mean music blasting from every single direction yeah yeah kids playing you know what I mean that was that was because I feel like like Peckham is it's that thing where it doesn't matter where you go in the world that you'll always see parts of it and the reason why I say this is that I know you go to the States a lot and I find like the similarities of like New York to London is very similar and how you can you know when you go down Peckham High Street where you've got the different smells and there's someone asking if you want hair, you want to get your hair done.

9:01You've got the same similarities through parts of New York.

9:08Mo Gilligan: But then at the same time, it's got that hub of community. You hear the loud music as well. Do you know what I'm saying? But then it's interesting how you say it, how you listen to hip hop and then you're hearing swearing and you're like, oh, okay. Because you know what's mad? When I started doing stand-up, I got deaf comedy jams. And I'd never, like I knew, I knew of stand-up comedy, but once I heard a comedian having these jokes about, cursing. Yeah, and sex and stuff. And I was like, fucking hell, this is, right, I remember going into school the next day and telling people, ah, just got this DVD called Deaf Comedy Jam and they're swearing in it.

9:50Mo Gilligan: And everyone's listening and I'm like telling people this is what the comedian said. And everyone's like laughing. So immediately, you're like, oh, you look like this stuff, yeah? Yeah, man. Yeah, exactly. Because it's the naughty stuff, isn't it? Yeah, because I feel like, you know, as a young, not even as a child, because as a teenager, when you get that little glimpse into entertainment, that is, because you know that when you're young, you're like, I want to see an 18 film. Like, I want to see the blood and the guts. Yeah, you want to be a man. Yeah, it's like, ooh. And then you see a little bit of it.

10:26Mo Gilligan: I remember watching Terminator 2 for the first time. I think I must have been about, I don't know, probably eight, nine years old. And you see it and you're like, rah, this is the stuff I'm exposed to. But you're like, this is kind of cool, man. Do you know what I mean? How was that for you? I remember it's Freddy. Oh, yeah. Nightmare on El C. I remember I watched Nightmare on El C. Free. Yeah, I remember I watched that Nightmare on El C. I was shook for time. Didn't want to sleep. Bare nightmares. Before, like, your early music career, like you spoke about how you've had trouble with the law.

10:59Mo Gilligan: You said how you went to prison in the early 2000s. But what I always remember is when you came on a big Nazi show and we had... Ross, my friends. David Schwimmer. And you said... And I'll never forget that the line hit so hard when you're like... One, it was nice to see you come out of your shell because the way that you bridge the gap of like, yeah, I used to watch you in jail. and I think it's the reality of people watching the show of like, oh rah and I think that was also for me being on the show, you're like wow this is someone, David Schwimmer who's coming on the show, this would never happen on any other show, do you know what I mean how was that time for you, especially early on like in your career where it felt like you're in your flow, do you know what I mean, the momentum is really building, how did that feel like that started to kind of stagnate you and stop you in some ways.

11:54Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? What do you mean when I went to jail the second time? No, the first time. The first time. My career. Yeah. I didn't have no career then. Then I had a different career, innit? You know what I mean? That's how I ended up. You know what I mean? But, I was, that's when we first just started making music. When I went to jail then. That's when we made the, we started the first ever Spare No One mixtape. Yeah, we started it. Made a couple tunes. I think we made about eight tunes. But we was getting tunes from different artists, like Nasty Crew. And so as a whole, because there wasn't really mixtapes like that in the UK at all, to be honest.

12:37I think there was one mixtape I was familiar with that was a so-solid mixtape, Cuts and Bruises. I remember that. And that was the only mixtape I knew. So I said, yeah, we need to start doing mixtapes in the UK. Like, with different, like, artists on them, like, so we can get our thing lit, you know what I'm saying?

12:55Mo Gilligan: Yeah, man, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And then, yeah, it started, then went jail. Then went jail, like, probably, like, a month later or something. Did that feel like, because, you know, sometimes it's, I watch a lot of these films and you see a musician go to jail and they, like, for example, like, there's films where they go to jail and they're like, cool, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna write, I'm gonna zone in, I'm gonna lock in. if that makes sense but then also knowing that like whenever I've gone to prisons and like visited like and we had a guest on and he says how boring jail is so like when you know you're locked up is there a part of you where you start getting something working that you're inside and you're like fuck man obviously you want to get out of that situation but is there a part of you that's like is it hard to like obviously what I'm trying to say is is it hard to like keep being inspired does that make sense yeah it depends on your mindset innit like obviously them times I was a kid I was 21 younger than my son my oldest son you know what I'm saying I didn't know shit you know what I mean and I knew I was going in jail as well because I was just fucking on a mad ting you know what I'm saying so I knew it was coming like yeah then I was just the only thing obviously I had I had ML then so like that's that's the only thing that was like oh man my son i need to need to get out to my son i missed his birthday stuff like that yeah i need to get out for my son but if i didn't have ml i wouldn't really give a fuck them times it was ml that made me think right i gotta get out and be something like you know i mean and then i realized i wasn't really the greatest dad either then like i used to like i remember i just used to always be outside but because i lived with ml's mom them times i used to think yeah man i'm i'm present so like that's enough yeah kind of thing but i still look man like you said the trick-or-treating even though that was what i thought i thought it was wrong but i still wasn't there like you know anyone so i used to be around but I just used to always out on the streets come home sleep chill with ML for a bit go out I'm feeling like that's enough then I remember one time then I was in jail one time and then someone when it was close to coming out because I didn't know if I was coming out that's when I really thought I want to go home man like flipping out like you know I'm saying and then um I remember someone said to me yeah man when you get out make sure you take your son to the park and I remember thinking I didn't used to take him out of the park then that's when I used to think what do I do like then his mum would take him away on holiday yeah and I'll just say right perfect this is a time for me to go lick baddies you know what I'm saying like yeah I'll give her the bread to go on holiday with him yeah man and I wouldn't go with them because I want to chill out with things or be on the ends you know what I'm saying like them times mum wasn't really a good dad takes a lot for you to admit that yeah yeah yeah nah of course of course and then yeah so then when I come out that's when I was on it like bro I need to be I need to be more you get me yeah yeah that's when I started like proper you know what I mean so them times I was young so I didn't really didn't really too give a fuck like you miss home and all that but still like yeah I mean like man a bad man I think it's their age as well you know those ones yeah but then when I was older and I went back I went back when I was 30 in 2012 these time I'm gigs I'm a rapper I'm established you know what I'm saying like I'm in jail my son's older he's just going secondary now and secondary is that's when you gotta watch out for the gang shit yeah yeah yeah do you know what I'm saying because that's when they start meeting their friends you know those ones some man to like from this ends and they're going to be a bad boy and your son's rolling with them he might you know them ones like so that's now is when you got a proper watch your kid yeah yeah you know i'm saying like so and i didn't know if i was coming home then either because i was i was just sitting down in jail yeah like waiting for trial you know i mean so um that's when i said raw like flipping out i've let him down if i gotta get out of here like so that was a complete different experience from the first time I went.

17:31Them times I was like, I remember when I first got back in jail, I was in Brixton again. Got in Brixton, they closed the door and I remember when the door closed, I thought,

17:43Mo Gilligan: how the fuck did I get back here? That's mad. How am I back here? You hear me? So that was a different, but yeah, to answer your question anyway, them times, yeah, it was just like, yeah, I gotta come home, I gotta get out of here. I can understand it from when you went in at 21 because you're young and I feel like anyone knows and you're in your 20s, just life feels like it's starting. Do you know what I mean? But then at the same time, I feel like when they say life begins at 30 and you're going at 30, they're like... They say 40, isn't it? Yeah. Hopefully that's what they're saying, bro. I think it's 40.

18:22Mo Gilligan: I hope they're saying that now, bro. Yeah, man. But then rewind from like 2012, 2008 is when you dropped Walking the Park I remember that so vividly because I remember it was sold out anywhere you went in Peckham alone it was sold out and I'm talking about sold out if this is when like Tesco's used to sell records and stuff HMV you'd have to go to the one in Oxford Street there was one in Greenwich as well is there one in Greenwich? yeah there used to be one Charlton okay you know that bit in Charlton yes yeah yeah yeah one day but yeah and I remember it vividly because it was sold I remember going to the shop and it was sold out but that was just because they didn't stock them is that why?

19:06Mo Gilligan: not they probably would like they probably they probably didn't believe in it then because that was UK rap remember this didn't really exist man ain't put the only person nah but it was sold out sold out though I don't know I don't believe it was just stock nah nah that's good that you feel that way nah do you know why because it's like I feel like do you know why I say that and this is not to like to hype up because you're here. I remember at the time people wanted the physical copy. Yeah, yeah. And that wasn't like you know like now it's like a nostalgia thing where you're like I want the physical copy because I've got the record.

19:39Mo Gilligan: I think back then the support for you was so strong people was like you know if you're in secondary school you wanted to be the person that's like I've got the copy copy. Not because this is at a time where you can still burn CDs. And we would you know you say to your friend I bad that for me. People are supporting. But the physical copy was like, to say, I've got a physical copy. Yeah. It was like gold dust. I don't believe it was because they didn't stop it. No, no. In the beginning, it was that. And then afterwards, we sorted it because then they started to see the demand. Yes. You know what I'm saying?

20:15So in the beginning, when we first put them in there, they would probably take like five or something. I would take five of those instead of taking hundreds. You get me? Yeah. So then afterwards, was when they started and everyone was because there was queues. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was probably queues for like five. You know what I'm saying? So then when they started it was like, oh shit, then they started.

20:34Mo Gilligan: How did that feel for you though? Being a rapper at a time when like grime was, grime has always been like something that's kind of, when it comes to like the forefront of UK music, like I felt like grime has always, like it's always been around essentially. I'd say probably from just kind of like that so solid kind of era as that kind of that garage went into so solid and so solid went into grime them times that garage so solid and that heartless and all that and then it went to Dizzy and Wiley because remember they blocked so solid the pirate radio kind of stage then them man was more spitting more kind of making their own beats Dizzy and all that that's when it kind of transformed like Creeper and all that you know what I'm saying and say it was like, what music is this?

21:26You know what I'm saying? So that's when it kind of started.

21:28Mo Gilligan: I always say it's when Garage got dark. It was less about like, like the champagne lifestyle and it turned into a bit more platinum chains. Because they were talking about Audi TTs. Remember everyone wanted Audi TTs. Yeah, some hood shit. Yeah, yeah. It was like, these men got like Audi TTs and like platinum chains. But then as a rapper, how did that feel knowing that like everyone was behind you in a sense of like yeah like we all want this person to succeed do you know what i mean as a uk rapper um because i remember it extremely vividly man trying to go into shops and and buy a physical copy but what was that like for you at that time it's a bit of a weird one for me because i was always looking at trying to like defeat the obstacles you know i'm saying like you get me so it was always like look you got like just like that you got the cds in there but they don't believe in it so there's not enough so then i've got to be arguing that we need more cds then it was something like man can't do shows so man's trying to figure out a way how to do shows then i'm not allowed on the radio or tv so it was just like I couldn't really notice the blessings like you know the ones but it was a good thing at the same time like even though yeah I could have enjoyed it more but at the time I was still in the streets as well so it's just like a different mindset you get me but I was always trying to like deal with this obstacle and that obstacle and that obstacle so I couldn't really take in like the blessings like you know them ones like was it hard to really enjoy the success as well you know if you're if you're if you're still doing stuff in the street but you have you have the successful you know you've got success happening do you know what i mean like tesco's are selling out of of your of your music do you know what i mean like is it hard to really enjoy Them times were so hood.

23:36Mo Gilligan: Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, man, just so hood. You get me? I ain't even thinking about it. I'm just thinking like, yeah, man, I need to get out of the hood. Yeah. But for now, man, just hearing it. You know them ones, I just had a different attitude. Do you ever look back now upon that time when, because I always say, you know, the minute, like, you start really getting successful, you start looking sometimes back on the times where all the early stuff was happening and it's like you're saying you had to break down obstacles but you do look back I don't know whether you do it now when you look back you're like fucking hell that was I remember that I remember doing that or or is it just I don't remember a lot of that because I didn't enjoy I remember everything because everything because it was still like street there was like still man was on the ends a lot and still going through stuff there's like there's everything like every single piece of music I've got I remember the time what was happening because it was just always someone's dead someone's got shot this man's gone jail these man have gone jail you know what I'm saying like man's gone jail like you know them ones so there's always I just remember every single piece of it yeah man it's just it's just a complete different time in mentality and this is at a time like when your your mixtapes were your mixtapes as well so as well as walking the park your mixtapes are like really bubbling in the streets as well but these times I didn't really know that I didn't really know that like like even like like I was listening to the old mixtapes the other day because I dropped all the the old ones on platforms and that and I was listening to them and I was thinking rah like like that that music made such an impact, a huge impact, like, and everyone that was involved in it as well, like, Kais and Tiny Boost and Dubs and Blade and, them times, when that was happening, I didn't know the impact that it was making.

25:50Mo Gilligan: Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, I remember them times I used to think, this thing ain't even working, man. Really? Fuck this shit, like, sometimes, and Barty's, bro, I'm telling you, it's working, bro. It's working, and they said, so like that's why now I never like I can never be like disheartened or because you don't know what's happening you don't know what impact you're making you know what I'm saying like the only the only way you're gonna like know is just to keep moving forward and then you look back like like right that was an impact didn't it you know what I'm saying and we're always making impacts yeah man always sometimes it might not be as big of an impact but it's still an impact like you've always so now I just more appreciate like yeah man the process and did you feel a bit like disheartened though when you missed out on the amount of live shows you know radio shows you could have done during that time because I guess now you know an artist can be successful on online and before you know it they're playing at like a wireless and yeah I wouldn't say disheartened I would say more like frustrated more frustrated you know what I mean because it's like my ting's way more ringing you know what I'm saying but them times because they wouldn't want to play me on radio and stuff the man didn't or like sometimes I remember I remember one time I was in my house and I was watching TV and it was like Rich Jesse J performing when it was like something like T4 in the park something like that and I was thinking fucking hell they never want me to do anything man you know what I'm saying but it is what it is I guess like because I've always you see me I've always like I know who I am innit like you know what I'm saying like I know like what I've done where I come from and things so I understand where this is just the consequences innit like I can own that like you know what I'm saying so that always helps me to stay strong you know them ones like boy this is it innit like you went that way but I always knew or know like yeah that's that's not my path either you know what I'm saying gigs ain't gonna be on T4 on the park but then you see gigs a couple years later wireless bringing out drizz or that you know what I'm saying like so that's man so your path is always just your path you just can't watch no one else's part you get me even them things were lessons you can't even watch what no one else is doing that's not your thing yeah man but yeah I used to get frustrated like but I was still doing shows anyway and you were doing shows outside of London yeah I used to do like yeah like club shows and like PAs yeah you know what I'm saying but it was like 2 o 'clock in the morning everyone from Peckham would be there yeah I used to bro I used to bring the whole Peckham with me yeah I remember you know what I'm saying yeah yeah yeah you know what I mean until I brought the whole Peckham until there was no Peckham yeah you know how it goes like man like just get weird and start doing weird things and you just you get me yeah yeah yeah of course yeah I used to get frustrated but it was more because someone's just telling you you can't do something than wanting to do it one time I was supposed to perform at BBC Radio 1 Weekender do you remember them big weekenders they still do them I can't even remember but anyway they was doing the big weekender and I was supposed to perform there and it's not even something that I ever wanted to do either.

29:32I didn't even want to do it. Like it wasn't something like oh yeah I want to do this because at them times I was like I was in my fuck Radio 1 mode like you know fuck these radio stations and not supporting or showing love and banning me for being me

29:45Mo Gilligan: that I was on all that them times so but when they said yeah you perform I even had to be talked into it because I was like oh fuck that man they ain't gonna then there's like then there's like alright cool I'll do it then now I'm excited to do it and then it's like yeah you're not allowed to do it them times I get frustrated you know what I'm saying like why can't I do it though you know what I'm saying like so but yeah never disheartened like it's always like fuck it we need to go around the other way then yeah yeah that's it you get me and like your middle is where you're at now like within your last 10 years I feel like 2016 when you brought out the landlord was such a defining moment because for many reasons, I felt like UK music was in like its full swing.

30:34Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? You had like Afro, is it Afro swing emerging? I felt like Grime was in its surgence. UK rap. But then like the landlord was like, because that was also at a time where I was doing my little videos online as well. And I remember it very vividly. The couple of cans. Yeah, man. The Cam of Cairns, Julie. And I remember it so vividly for myself because I felt like everything within the ecosystem of what the UK black British experience was, was being showcased to the world. Whether it was our comedy, whether it was people doing skits, our music shows as well. You know, like Landlord, I've come out to a bag of shows to whip an excursion.

31:23Mo Gilligan: that's one of my listen I had to stop using it because I was like I need a new song but as an entrance as an entrance I thought I was a musician bro I walked out and I thought like yeah yeah yeah alright cool what tracks do you lot want but like how was that for you you know debuted at number two on the UK album charts it had I felt like it had a real mix of you had like the real hood tunes you had something for the ladies the features as well um what was that like for you when you brought the album out yes that was a big deal man because that was from nothing yeah like that was from like that's when i came out of jail 012 and i just started from scratch yeah you know i'm saying like i've come out and now views are a thing okay because before this is why i've never watched youtube like views and all that because a lot of these things I've been around from before they even existed.

32:27Mo Gilligan: Yeah, man. Do you know what I'm saying? So like YouTube, that was like, the big deal was to get your video on TV. Channel U, yeah. Channel U, MTV, and BT, yeah me. So when I am, when you couldn't get your tune on TV, I'd just slap it on YouTube. Yeah. That's what it used to be. You know, it wasn't like, yeah, let's go on YouTube and see what views. It was just like, yeah, let's put it on there. It didn't make TV. you know them ones that so i've always had the same mentality which has been good for me because like i'm not i've never been a views person like my views have never been the mad thing or nothing on social media on youtube you know i'm saying like i was saying this in an interview the other day but man's always had the biggest longest lasting tunes like you get me you get me man's got like flipping like bob marley type forever lasting you know them ones still growing you get me got a national anthem bro yeah national you know what I'm saying yeah yeah of course even that's not on my views talking the hardest that's a national anthem yeah yeah yeah it's not even on you know what I'm saying so yeah so them time I'd just come out and nothing was happening like everyone was saying yeah Giggs is is washed up is is it's over for him like well not everyone but that's what you see online innit you know them ones because online is that where the miserable people are innit you know what I'm saying that's where they are no happy people online like saying I'm so happy like you know watching someone else when you're happy you don't you're not gonna be on some negative shit you know them ones that's what I used to see then I should say not everyone was saying let me correct that you know that's what it felt like that was the energy you know I mean like oh yeah what's going on and then I just had to start releasing bare bangers like you know what I'm saying like just lacing up the place then it started building up again then it was Man Don't Care I remember Man Don't Care and the Dizzy song I had was bubbling up that was that kind of nutcracker yeah nutcracker that's what it was called then Landlord was after seeing your versatility at that time though I think was for an audience that knew you as well seeing your versatility mix it up with Graham Artist but do UK rap I felt like was such a pivotal moment for you I think anyway where it was like ooh okay we never heard gigs on these type of it's always been that do you know what I mean it's always been that before that like even the old mixtapes like it's always been verse like you see like even like man's time of like like UK rap because remember before like like it looks like UK rap started with gigs yeah but that was mainstream yeah But before that, there was like the whole, you know what I'm saying?

35:25PDC, Northstar, Mashtown.

35:28Mo Gilligan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Flipping, even Teflon, he had a different name then. You know what I'm saying? SMS. Remember them days, you know what I'm saying? So there was all of that bubbling up, you know what I'm saying? Like that was like ringing in the streets. You know what I mean? But them times, no one weren't rapping about like what man was rapping about, bro. them time it was just who was the wickedest man yeah like 20 bodies what i got bear straps or you know what i'm saying like man came with baby i'm looking a slice and that like talking to women you know them ones like even on the song i said man don't make tune for the gal them like they ain't got a girlfriend or something you know i'm saying like yeah on them too and it wasn't cool to listen to them tunes it wasn't cool to listen to baby i'm looking a slice and i'm drinking it right Gotta look in your eyes.

36:17You know what I'm saying? It wasn't. You know what I'm saying? Man's like, I'll go on for this. If there was a bunch of man on the block and then that comes on, man's like, skip that, skip that. You know what I'm saying? But them tunes turn into,

36:33Mo Gilligan: do you know what? I'm not going to lie, that's my tune, you know? Because man's got a girlfriend, bro. Man loves women. You know them ones? Them times, man weren't talking about clothes. Man was talking about UK shit like yeah like hit the Hackett shop I need tops for the going up to Bista bro you know them ones Hackett and Lacoste and Armani and Dior like man weren't rapping about that bro on like gangster rappers from UK do you know what I'm saying you know them ones and then man would obviously man started on Gas I always used to do double 140 beats like grime tempo and that you know what I'm saying like so the versatility has always been there that's how I'm here.

37:15Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Because there's, look, an astroamp from Talking Arts, but man loves Liss Hello, that's another classic. You know what I'm saying? But then like, be careful. That's like, you get me? Like, so there's always been, or like, Manabad Man, remember that shit? Manabad Man, Manabad Man, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, dance all, so there's always been all different flavours of gigs. Like, that's why I exist. Do you know what I'm saying? That's why, even like music-wise, like, I'd make any music. Afro, dance all like you know them ones because yeah because like a ton of people there was a beijan artist exactly yeah like um chief din yeah yeah you know i'm saying like so like man's always i just make like my main music where i've come from is dance all that's my main probably probably before hip-hop like is dance all like you know i'm saying so like if i make a song i'll make a song like I don't make a song thinking oh yeah like yeah I gotta be the most lyrical on this or I've got a like I've got to say whatever on this I'm gonna make tunes like for feelings emotions okay that's my you know them ones like when I make a song I think rah like this is one you could drive home you know like like 11th of May I just don't love it that's one of them so you can drive home just to listen to that one song you know them ones or when I make a tune I I think, right, this is one of them tunes like when you walk in the dance.

38:46Mo Gilligan: You know when you walk in the dance and you're looking around? You're walking in cool. You want everyone to know you. I thought Lockdown was like that. Do you know what I'm saying? You get me? Like you walk in and then it's like you're checking around. The dance is nice still. There's a bad gal in there. Yeah, yeah, this is me still. You know what I think of tunes? I think of that tune. I think of the tune what's going to in the middle of the dance and the dance is nice. and it's like oh you have to run oh it's like I think of the tune when you're leaving when the dance is over yeah yeah I think of the tune when you're performing like you know them ones so when I make music I make music from energy and emotions and how you know them ones I ain't trying to impress anyone I'm just it's just vibrations yeah you know them ones that's why a man's here to stay like how did it start to feel now when you start doing you know your headlining like your wirelaces and stuff like this how does it start to feel now does it because you're saying how like versatile you are but how does it start changing now when it comes to a live show where you know I think I was at that show which show was it oh you was at that one yeah see that one man brought out Dave yeah yeah yeah but like what I had noticed is you know I think you had pyro techniques there you had a massive screen and there's thousands of people how does the versatility start to change now when from festival to, you know, you're saying you have to do these shows outside of London.

40:14Mo Gilligan: You're bringing everyone with you. Everyone was there. Everyone was there. I was outside of the stage. But like, how does it start to change now when it is your wirelesses and stuff like this? That's still the same. Yeah. Because you see the gig show. Yeah. No one has a show like gigs. My thing, my show is like a, like a Shubs. Yeah. Because man used to be a DJ, innit? So the DJ thing, I'll handle my shows like a DJ set. It depends what set in it. You know, I used to make dancehall cassette tapes mixing. I would always start with some reggae, some things like Luciano or Garnet Silk or something.

41:01And then I might play a Wayne Wanda or something. And then it would go into Wayne Wanda and Buju. and then I'll play Boudjou then I'll go into the hardcore dance hall you know what I'm saying then it goes up you hear me so I might handle my set like that like yeah I might start with I don't know like the essence or something and then I'll go into you hear me

41:25Mo Gilligan: then I'll go into then I'll go into Lockdown for the girl and then I might the bad man you know what I'm saying like so the versatility is what the show needs you know what I'm saying or sometimes I might just start hard. Like, I'm going to whip him straight. You know them ones? It depends where you are. If I'm in the hood, I'll start a pain as an essence. You know what I'm saying? Like, you get me? Yes, yes, yes. You know them ones? You know what I'm saying? I might be at a wedding or something. That's a pain as the essence because it's small. It's everyone in there might appreciate. You know what I'm saying?

42:03So the versatility, there's no show like Giggs' show you know what I'm saying so yeah it doesn't change so does that feel like

42:12Mo Gilligan: having that in your arsenal whenever you do your live shows you're able to kind of construct it for what the show is what you're saying yeah I can do anything I can perform anywhere like any settings there's no settings I couldn't perform that must be cool as a performer knowing you're just ready for whatever is going to spring up on you so because I know you've done shows all across the world. So is there a feeling to, no, I wouldn't say change it up whenever you go across the pond, but is that almost like a, you're going to get a real gigs experience of a show? When you've done a show at Hammersmith Apollo, the landlord show, that show looked, that I feel like you really captured a moment within UK music that I even got to, felt like I experienced it just by watching it on YouTube.

43:04Mo Gilligan: do you know what I mean I got to feel like yeah like he was there I was there in the moment I'm smiling at times where I'm like oh he dropped this and seeing everyone in the crowd and when I mean everyone in the crowd like Lethal B's in the crowd seeing Tiny Temper in the crowd and this is I'm only seeing this just on YouTube and Hammersmith Apollo as a venue for me it's one of my favourites to do comedy it reminds me a lot of oh what's that venue like Brixton Academy me where it's it's got that kind of floor that goes down um amazing acoustics um but what was that like for you performing that show was did that feel like a homecoming in some ways because you wasn't able to do shows in the past and now you're in an iconic arena when i was finally on tour i remember that's when i thought fucking is this what like i wasn't allowed to do all these years because I didn't understand.

44:05Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I said, I was just off.

44:08Mo Gilligan: And you documented it as well. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just off the streets and I was doing shows because it was like PAs. So I thought, yeah, I'm doing shows. And Buck used to be like to me, nah, those ain't shows, bro. Like, no, I don't want to come out. Some people don't want to come out 2 a.m. Yeah. Some people want to be in bed by, you know what I'm saying? They want to watch you perform at 8, 9. The voice of reason. Yeah, but still then, I still didn't know what he was talking about. I used to be like, maybe, but yeah, I think they'll come out for me. You know what I was like? So when it was actual showtime, a gig show, because those were just clubs.

44:48Some people might even just be, that might be their local club where they go every Friday. They don't even know who gigs is. Do you know what I'm saying? They didn't come to see gigs. So this was people coming to see gigs. so then that's when I was like rah like this is great and I remember yeah I remember tour is always emotional don't ask me why but I don't know I think it's because you're performing all your my music's proper emotional like you get me like even though it's lit and happy and that it's still a lot of pain like better time I don't know I just felt like crying for no reason and all that man would be praying and I just think don't cry don't cry like you know and I ain't even a cryo

45:31Mo Gilligan: yeah is this on stage nah like just before I'm going on stage we always pray and that then I just feel like yeah like just used to be emotional like yeah I just think all the emotions like from all the different songs and and times through your life you're performing them every every night the crowd's giving you your energy they're giving you theirs like it's just yeah I just used to feel that's what I remember from that time still and I feel like Like, the way you captured it was nice, seeing you bring people out on stage. Some people who had never been on tour before, that was on tour. Yeah, yeah, man.

46:11That's what I'm saying. See, bro, like, man, like, through the whole thing from it, man just shows bare love, bro. You know what I'm saying?

46:18Mo Gilligan: But it's, you know, and it's interesting because, like, when you get to that point, it must have felt nice to say, look, man, everyone come on tour as well, experience what I'm experiencing because it could have been easy to say listen I'm doing this myself do you know what I mean even the man like I wouldn't say names a couple of the artists but it would be like what fam what you putting everyone on tour buses that's expensive bro man like wait and I used to be like nah man if we all gotta you know what I'm saying we all gotta because I know what it's like to not be able to experience it so I'm like nah we all gotta like you know what I'm saying so even then when it's when it's out of pocket I know it sounds it's not really good advice ladies and gentlemen but like sometimes man that's living in the moment like I want everyone to enjoy this moment the more the merrier like you know what I'm saying that's always my motto the more the merrier you get me like I think also for you as well you're bringing along a load of artists who have experienced the same stuff you've experienced by being in the streets releasing music having their shows, you know what I mean, cancelled or not getting radio play as well.

47:33Mo Gilligan: So it's, yeah, it's, and like the way you've, do you know what I mean? I feel like you've also laid down the groundwork for like a generation of young artists now. Of course, of course. Working people you've collaborated with. How does that feel as well to have, you know, these new artists, but like they look up to you, but also they tell you stuff that's so personal where they say oh listen i was in jail and listen this got me through this as an artist because it must feel so inspiring when you sit and you're like i know i've been there like how does that start to feel it's always mad when someone says yeah man you saved my life or this song got me through it like it's always wow like you know i mean it's it's almost like you think i can't even it'll be a disservice to even slow down or not do this because this is god's work in it like a man's told you you got him through something you don't know what that thing is what he fucking might have been going through you know what i'm saying like yeah me yeah so yeah man it's always it's always a big but yeah and for the youths as well and just start i'm all think about like what more can man do like you know what I'm saying because obviously like my son now is 23 I'm always thinking yeah how could we make this thing bigger how could we because all that shit has made the streets safer let's be honest like all our success you know what I mean like look at the streets before it was a mess bro there was no hope look you said you had to go to Dalish Village do you know what I mean like it's true though there was no hope there weren't no gigs no mo but there was but like you know like I know mind depth you know what I'm saying it was like a togetherness I feel like yeah so like the hope and all that is all like yeah man we just gotta keep keep making this thing greater man I just feel proud all the time I feel proud I can't even I can't even be upset about nothing speaking of being proud what's it like performing alongside your son I see you guys had a show in Manchester recently we did Stone Island yeah and how is that that must be nice man doing a show with what Stone Island yeah with your son as well because even like in the in the that soldier rhythm remember that soldier rhythm that Stone Island jacket and it's fake oh right yeah I said I said like oh right really yeah yeah it was off the back of the lorry still someone was selling Stone Island jackets outside you hear me I didn't know if it was real or not but it probably wasn't you know one of them was like it was just nice to have yeah man we'll grab that 60 quid I remember it was 60 quid you know what I'm saying like grab that Stoney you know what I mean I was wearing that in the soldier that was a fake Stoney and then fast forward I'm performing in Manchester with my oldest son that is emotional like just him up there enjoying because that's what it's all about yeah of course you know them ones it's not like he's following his dream yeah he's blessed enough to be in a position to be able to guide him man's doing Stone Island I wasn't doing Stone Island performances when I was 23 bro yeah for bread and they're giving him his Stone Island up like man had the fake one yeah yeah yeah yeah man you know what I'm saying like so like so it's from yeah bro so yeah you really start to appreciate it like just beaming out just being man's proud you get me like that's my son you know what I mean that must be nice though yeah no it's mad it's mad man even the whole day the whole day like we was driving up there there was a guy up there and the bus you know what I'm saying he's performing as well this is his show as well he's got his own rider then the bus even broke down yeah like then we had to wait for another bus to come for two hours but it was nice still I'm just chilling with my son there's no Russia going on we're gonna get out to this show perform it's just a nice day it's just a nice time like you know what I'm saying like quality time you start to enjoy music more when you do stuff like that when it gives you because sometimes I know it's like when you've got to do the show and like that would have been different had you been going to a show and the bus breaks down and you're like oh for fuck's sake nah you know me I enjoy every single piece of this thing oh yeah yeah like every every single piece man was a gangster bro yeah yeah yeah bro I've seen the most I could say I've seen it all but that might be milk but I've seen the most yeah you know what I'm saying like I've seen both sides remember man's got into music like late like 28 27 when Walking The Park dropped do you know what I mean like so I've already like fucked up loads of dumb shit yeah yeah risked my life been through the most like you get me like to like seeing all it and and then being blocked because of that world and then so had it hard in music and then afterwards you know what i'm saying so yeah yeah me so like me i appreciate all of it everything like going in broken down buses like yeah that's like i'm just my son's next to me like so vibes like you know what i'm saying like there's still a tv yeah the tv's in you know what I'm saying with vibes in but getting joke like you know what I mean you can't same thing like even look today like I just dropped the kids school came straight here to link you know what I'm saying like a man of reasoning this is work yeah I can't yeah yeah like this is work right now bro like man's grateful fam you know what I mean and also I feel like your impact within music but your impact of putting on people but also your impact of representing where you're from well we done a we had a tour show in um new zealand some guy was just like oh my big fang big fang man i fucking love london man shit man when's gigs coming over man wait wait you gotta get gigs over here man and it's that sometimes the realization of like what music does in a sense of that's why i bring up that ecosystem them a lot where you're like you know like i've grown up within the same area but someone is like oh i know where you're from but also i know where this artist is from as well and now his reference of peckham is now for the positive do you ever think about that sometimes 100 for him man ain't bro like man ain't put on for peckham like gigs bro you know i'm saying like you get me like Obviously, no disrespect, because you've got Ashley Waters, John Boyega, Dampson, Idris.

54:43Do you know what I'm saying? You get me? And plenty more. But man was like, the pack up. You know them ones like, pack up.

54:52Mo Gilligan: You know them ones like, football pack up. You know them ones like, do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, of course. You get me? But because of my past, they don't really, you know what I'm saying? like I'll see like they used to have in Peckham remember they used to have they had the picture of Ashley Ashley Waters John Bray got no gigs you know them ones and it's like it's cool and that because I know who I am and that but bro man put I remember when I when Peckham was still dangerous yeah and I like I think it was like probably 08 walking apart kind of times yeah and then man's on the ends that Peckham market you know like the indoor market standing outside and there was two white girls and they came and they was like taking pictures and they was like oh my gosh Giggs he's here yeah and then I said oh nice to meet you where you lot from they was from like I don't even know where they was from and they said nah we just came to take pictures of Peckham and see if you was here and I thought oh wow take pictures of Peckham like the fuck it's a shit hole like what the fuck but that's when it hit me like raw like man's making Peckham famous wow what year was this this was like 08 oh wow yeah like after walking apart yeah and that's when it was like raw like this thing's serious isn't it yeah yeah of course just rat taking pictures you know that you got KFC remember that jewellery that porn shop that's always been on the corner forever yeah yeah across the road from the Primark the Primark yeah taking pictures and I'm like this is mad this is Peckham yeah like that's when I knew like rah man's a like staple out here yeah do you know what I'm saying like you get me because you know like when I think of like US music and how a lot of rappers put on from where they're from do you know what I mean Fat Joe always talks about the Bronx and you know what I mean Cameron and Dipset are always talking about you know Harlem so it must feel like fulfilling where you're meeting someone and you're like oh I'm putting this place on but people are coming here and they just want to take pictures of it yeah man I must be proud man yeah bro that's where we grew up like Peckham every single fucking step of Peckham I've got a memory bro every step step one step oh this is where that happened left that's where that happened you know what I'm saying like yes you get me like so for someone to come and be like oh I want to take pictures for what like but I understood this is what man's making happen here like you know what I'm saying like you get me Of course, man.

57:33Mo Gilligan: And speaking of making things happen, Somerset House, man, 17th of July, gigs and friends. This is big, bruv. Somerset House. Do you think it's... Do you not sometimes, like, have moments where you're like, where you're like, rah? Because you've done a ton of shows all around the world. But, like, when I normally think of Somerset House, I think of two things. There are fashion week sometimes there, and it's normally for ice skating. So, to have gigs and friends in central London, in the middle of summer. And we're celebrating like your legacy as well. Do you know what I mean? How are you looking forward to the show, man?

58:10Mo Gilligan: This is, I think this is iconic, man. Got gigs in central London. Do you know where it is for me? I ain't never been there. Yeah. I've only gone past it and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So man, oh, you ain't been in there ever? I've never been in there. Is that some hood shit? Yeah, yeah. I've never been in there. I've gone past it. I used to go to the bus stop when I used to work in Covent Garden, take the 172 but I've never been inside of it. It's because we don't know about them things on the ends. We know about Chicago's and that. You know what I'm saying? The venue next to McDonald's on Old Kent.

58:43You know what I mean? It's true. We don't grow up man around. It's true that like saying, yeah, we got Somerset House. We're in it. Who was coming up to you them days?

58:56Mo Gilligan: I see you in there one time. Somerset House? Years ago. No, Chicago's, man. Oh, Chicago. Yeah, years ago, years ago. No way. That's mad. Hey, Chicago, that was the treason shit, bro. Fucking hell. What was happening in there? Oh, there was a party. Whose party was it? Someone's party. Yeah. This was years ago. There used to be no girls in there. Yeah, that was... That was a straight badminton. Straight badminton. Them ones there is like, yeah, man's hair in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No girl or nothing, you know? Nah, I only went once. Like a what? Ten girls. Ten yardie girls. And they were with someone, like.

59:40Or like, you know what I'm saying?

59:41Mo Gilligan: But then on Saturdays, they'd have the Latin night, the Colombian night. Okay, in Chicago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. See, we wouldn't even know, innit? Yeah, they'd have like a little Colombian night on the Saturdays, man. But yeah, I've never been in there still. And Manso is saying to me, yeah, in there's proper nice, you know? I heard it's kind of outdoor, indoor, innit? So it'll be summertime. So yeah, me, Tiny Boos, P Money, and Potter, we're going to do like a ting, but it's going to be like a different kind of set. Yeah, like a Shobz, you know what I'm saying? So yeah, man, it's just like a vibes really.

1:00:18You know what I mean? I'll just do shit for no reason, bro.

1:00:20Mo Gilligan: I feel that sometimes. You do some, like, you do events and I'm like, oh, this is different. Like, we were speaking before, you had your your thing at it was Greenwich University right and that was but the Gigsmas what was the theme was it Alice in Wonderland or something like that it was Beauty and the Beast yes that's it and Chronicles of Narnia yes yeah yeah but even when I think of like do you remember when you done your you had your boat party the boat party you had a boat party which one that was with Spotify oh yeah that was mad didn't it yeah yeah yeah everyone had to stop jumping because the boat was was you there?

1:01:00Mo Gilligan: I was there what was you doing? Hosting it? No I wasn't hosting where you just pulled up yeah that was lit innit Irene Irene invited me to that okay so yeah I remember we went to that that was a vibe that's when I asked you you was with your brother and I said to you and I was like you see one of your tracks because that's when I was doing the geezer stuff at that time and then I remember I went up to you and I said oh in the track you said couple a couple and I was like did that inspire that? And you was like, nah. Ah, shit. He's like, nah, bro. But he said, if you want it. Yeah, you can hold it.

1:01:35You can, like, man, I'll run with it, like. You know what I'm saying? Like, because I might have. You know, there was maybe I'll subconsciously did so. One of my friends told me, yeah. He was saying, bust it up.

1:01:47Mo Gilligan: Because that's when I first done a tour. And we was listening. We was listening to the landlord in the car. And this was, this was what? What, 2016, 2017? so all my friends were hyping me up they was like yeah yeah that's your team yeah yeah that's you man so I had to ask maybe you should have told me that story first then I just wouldn't have answered

1:02:08you know what I mean yeah but yeah do you know where it is like the country is just dead for a lot of like now it's more lit though like there's more things before there didn't used to really be nothing for the man them like private grown heavy red carpet

1:02:27Mo Gilligan: boss kings and queens you know what I'm saying the stuff we deserve like you know what I mean because let's be honest like like the man them are superstars bro we're international you know what I mean but like this country like it kind of suppresses that innit like you know what I mean they don't really like the media don't really like show the man them love like you know what I'm saying but we do the biggest the maddest things like say I don't know like I always say like you got like I don't know D-Block Europe or or Dave or selling out O2 nights in a row. But like, they don't get that A-list superstar.

1:03:04Even you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Man don't get that A-list superstar when he walks in. Like, oh, get it. You know, the only time we get that is when we do something wrong. like right now if man done something wrong like god forbid like a crime or something then now it's front page now you're important you know what I'm saying like do you know what I'm saying we don't really get treated the way we're supposed to here like if it was America you see the way they treat you know what I mean they understand like but obviously remember we're like 30 years behind or something so they probably have to get up there as well but you know the ones but we don't really get so that's why a man's on a thing like yeah man we need to we need to do it big tonight this is this is how we deserve beauty and the beast yeah everyone dressed like royalty like you know that's man's you know i'm saying like so it just sometimes i just want us to understand who exactly we are like you know them ones that's why man would just do things sometimes you know i mean yeah let's do somerset house outside summertime with the you know i mean yeah because it like what are we not supposed to be here?

1:04:19Yeah, we're supposed to be here celebrating. Let's celebrate. You know what I mean? So I'm all about celebrating. You get me?

1:04:24Mo Gilligan: Yeah. And your end in some ways, you're a massive pioneer for, I think UK music, not even just rap music. I feel like for UK music, you're a huge pioneer. We call Talking the Hardest the national anthem. Do you know what I mean? When it goes off in a club, anywhere in the country, it goes off. Do you know what I mean? so like how do you start looking towards like the end of your career because I see you putting out music all the time you know you got a track that's releasing soon on the 29th of May gorgeous like but like how do you start to like do you plan for the later part of your future do you want to keep continue to make music is there a time where we're just gonna be prepared for you to say look I'm retiring or is it I'm gonna keep riding this wheel I'm gonna keep riding the wheels I'm gonna keep riding it till the wheels fall off basically nah I just enjoy the game that's it just enjoy it yeah you know what I mean cause look where is the end like you know what I mean look at like the OGs now like Jay Z and Budja Banton and Vives Cartel and flipping Swiss Beats and 50s.

1:05:51Like, oh, them man there still bust the rat. You hear me? The man there still making the biggest moves ever. DJ Khaled. You know what I mean? Everyone's Beanie Man.

1:06:01Mo Gilligan: Yeah. Like, you hear me? Them man there 50s and that. We ain't even seen this before. Man them that age still relevant. I've still, I've still got loads to enjoy. you know what I mean I ain't seen shit yet you know you always get to that that level and you think yeah man this is it but nah there's always another level another level always bro you get me like and I just yeah I'm always ready for the next level you know what I mean and what do you want your legacy to be do you ever think about stuff like that I don't really think about stuff like that to be honest I just like just keep being me that shit works itself out you know what I mean man's gonna make mistakes man's gonna learn from their mistakes man's gonna like you know what I mean so I guess my legacy is that I'm a human being you know what I'm saying trying to ting that's my legacy I'm a human being trying to ting because that's what we all doing we're all trying to ting innit so let that be my legacy a human being trying to ting yeah man

1:07:16Mo Gilligan: so when they put a statue of you in Peckham yeah so they probably do it where like let's say it was like across the road from Katie's where you say where the pictures are that's what you want no no I need it I need it more centre stage where do you want it then maybe outside Cracker Jack yeah in the middle of the road in the middle of the road outside Cracker Jack you have to drive around it whatever way you know them ones you know what I mean I'll stay in the streets that way just a human being trying to ting yeah just a human being trying to ting I like that man listen I think this is like the first time we proper sat down and had a chat but honestly it's so inspirational of like one what you've done what you're doing and also what you continue to do do you know what I mean it inspires loads of us some of us that are you know from the area but then also the outer reaches of the UK do you know what I mean like going all the way to another place of the world and someone being like oh like I know of you because of this person or when is that person coming here um seeing you do stuff you know in the states and like you know what it's a totally different place there.

1:08:37Mo Gilligan: But to be able to do shows, like I know you had shows in like Atlanta and LA and New York and Toronto and stuff. And it's mad inspiring because like, what you're able to do is in some ways is like, ah, that's a blueprint to follow for anyone. Do you know what I mean? Whether you're an actor, you're a comedian, you're a musician. It's inspiring, man. And I think the next part, I say the next part, but like you're saying, you know what I mean? Like that next part, the next stage of your career is going to be interesting to see because you said, like you said, you're a man who's like, just like fucking doing music, innit?

1:09:13Mo Gilligan: Do you know what I mean? So it's going to be interesting to see that path in some ways. But honestly, it's been fun, man. And this is your beginning, middle and end. Thank you very much, my bro. Appreciate it, man. Check that for myself. Yeah, bro. Let's start for us. You're doing your thing as well, man. Well done, man. Check it out, man. Appreciate it, man. Hey, what's up? Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Now, a lot goes in to making each episode. I know you hear my voice, but there's a team behind the scenes who helped make it. And if you did enjoy it, I'd really, really appreciate if you could show the love to them by giving us five stars.

1:09:49Mo Gilligan: And if you also have the time, please leave us a review. It's always appreciated and we love reading the comments. And of course, we want to keep making it better. Thank you for listening and have a great day. Peace.