Phil Wang (Tasting Menu)

0:00James Acaster: I'm on tour. I'm on tour until August. And there are still tickets available at jamesacaster.com. I'm looking at you, Glasgow, Belfast. Oh, there was somewhere else. Just please go on the website and buy tickets, please. Jamesacaster.com. Howdy, folks. This episode of Off Menu is brought to you by Boar's Head, the friar's turkey breast. Imagine a backyard tradition. OK. A sun-drenched afternoon, a massive vat of bubbling oil, and a man named Big Dave wearing goggles. It's a lot of effort for a bird. It's a lot of effort for a lunch, isn't it? Well, what if I told you that Boar's Head has brought that exact backyard tradition right to the deli counter?

0:41Well, I'd say, James, you finally lost it, and I think you lost it a while ago, but this is beyond the pale.

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1:34Welcome to the Off Menu Tasting Menu. La-dee-da! A new concept from the Off Menu Industries. Our minds are an endless well of ideas. Yes, this is our second one. In six years. this is basically our way of getting in some great guests that we've had in the past yep fan favourites we always worried we put too solid a line under guests and said you've done it once you're not coming back in so many podcasts oh third idea Redemption Dinner Party we did a Redemption Dinner Party so so just so you know we've had three ideas yes

2:11James Acaster: in six years and one of them was during Covid just doing it on streaming yes Redemption Dinner Party then we did it sort of live we kind of did it live yeah but now this is the third idea yes is that we get a menu a dream menu from one of the guests that we've had on before and we present it to a different guest who we've had on before yes as a tasting menu and get their thoughts on it and whether they'd like it yeah and you know you know us it'll spin off into some wacky chats we probably won't stay on topic we'll probably go all over the place in crazy ways it's like we're on drugs Yeah, bad ones.

2:50Well, our guest this week in the Tasting Menu restaurant, the Dream Restaurant, Dream Restaurant, is the wonderful Phil Wang. Phil Wang. You all know Phil Wang. Do we even need to introduce Phil Wang as a concept to people?

3:03James Acaster: No, everyone knows he's a fantastic comedian. He's an actor as well. He's done some great acting and stuff. Since we had him on the podcast, which was the first series, he's been in Wonka. Wonka? he did a dance in Wonka yeah that's like obviously I would you know that's my that's my guy three body problem what's Wong in that yeah I haven't watched it yet he's in it very you know he's got one scene in it but it's a very good scene I'd love to see that he's been he's worked on worked with Amy Schumer and Amy Schumer sketches look the guy's doing well what can I say but we've managed to get him back into the dream restaurant for a tasting menu yes so we're going to present him the tasting menu of Jay Rayner Jay Rayner notorious and brilliant food critic Jay Rayner who also came on very early in the life of the podcast he did we interviewed him in a room that I don't think we've recorded in before or since it was like some we went to him we went to him and maybe was it his publishers yeah I think it was his publishers offices he had a book coming out yeah and look we're thinking like who do we pair with Phil like whose meal should we give him yeah we started thinking like comedians that are friends with Phil and like we can throw their meals at him and he can like, have fun picking them apart or get annoyed that oh no, I've been given this.

4:19But actually,

4:20James Acaster: he's a sophisticated guy. He is. Phil, you know, we're going to get more out of him. We're going to learn more about Phil Wang by presenting him with a food critics menu. Yes, absolutely. So like, I think we've made the right decision here. I believe so. I mean, I think we should just get stuck into it. There's no secret ingredients on this? No, we're not going to kick him out. It was Harry Cracklin when we had Jay Rayner on, but it's not, if Wang says by the way could I sprinkle some hairy crackling on that yeah fine if he does do that yeah that'd be so quiz didn't I wish I'd cook him out yeah Phil is also on tour with his new show Uh Oh and you can go to philwang.co.uk for tickets I saw some stuff from it recently it's brilliant you're gonna love it he's amazing Uh Oh but this is the off menu tasting menu of Phil Wang

5:19Welcome back, Phil Wang, to the dream restaurant. Oh, my days, it's so nice to be back. It's been six years. That's mad. Has it actually? Yeah. Well, where did that voice come from?

5:32James Acaster: Sorry. I can't remember if, because we write this as a second... Put an echo on this, Benita. As a second taste. I'm still in the lamp? Yeah. Hello, Phil. Welcome back. How you doing, buddy? I thought I recognized that voice. Yeah. It's good, man. I ain't gonna see you, James. I was just saying to Ed.

5:51My heel just kept the lowering mechanism on this chair.

5:55James Acaster: I actually made the sound of the genie. Phil's got back into the lamp. We swapped places. Oh, that'd be a cheap trick on a genie, wouldn't it? Yeah. Rub him to get him out the lamp and then sneak in there when he's not looking. Sneak in there, bad luck. Like a hermit crab, just giving his shell. Yeah, last time I was here, there was no office, there was no cameras. There was no mics. We were just shouting from a roof. And wow, this is amazing. It's pretty fancy. Look how far young Benito has come. Incredible. He's a man now. He's built an empire. Tony Soprano of podcasts. That was the first series I think you did.

6:36James Acaster: Maybe even like... Episode 16 or 12 or something. Earlier. 13. Episode 13. and lucky for some, lucky for us. Lucky for us because we got Phil Wang. Well, lucky in Chinese numbers. Is it? Yeah, one and three is like life, basically, because three sounds like life, whereas four sounds like death, so four is the bad one. Four is a bad one. So one and three together, so lucky, double lucky. One life. One life. One life. Do you subscribe to that? Yeah, I think there probably is just one life. When I was a very round 10-year-old boy, I bought a black Nike vest that I wore all the time because I thought it made me look tough and I worked to non-uniform day at my school in Borneo once and I'm a massive guy you know guy boy and I had I took it as an opportunity to look really cool for non-uniform day and I was planned this out there forever and I had on my left hand a fingerless leather glove I had the small sunglasses from the Matrix.

7:44I had shorts, because it's hot. T-shirt, and then this Nike sort of fleece vest. Fleece? Yeah, I remember when I was a fleece vest. And on the back, it said, One Life Live It. Oh, yes! I was so excited about debuting my true self at school. The One Life Live It guy. The One Life Live It. So one life is something I've always lived by.

8:08James Acaster: So did it go well? Do you remember the reception for the outfit? I arrived at school and the first kid that saw me had to collapse to his knees from laughing so much. He just thrust his finger out at me and collapsed to his knees laughing. Oh my God. Poor little Phil. But he remembers that still. He's still laughing. Yeah, of course. He's still laughing. He's still on his knees at the school. Grows up. And just sweeping up around him and stuff. Gets into watching Taskmaster as an adult. Yeah. Episode one, season series seven, he's on his knees again. Yeah. He's just recovering. He's finally stopping and laughing.

8:48He's just got out of hospital. Yeah. This guy.

8:54James Acaster: He could have worn out if he got that show. Speaking of Borneo and One Life, James, it was your birthday recently. It was. I brought you a late gift. Oh wow. Oh wow, look it's in there. It's a little bag. A proper little bag. Thank you Phil. I bought you a couple of bottles. And look, the gold paper coming out the top looks like a genie exploding out the low. Yeah, of course. It does. Thank you Phil, that's very thoughtful. My girlfriend's touch. Have a look here. Oh, there's some sabasco. Sabasco. It's a hot sauce. Chili sauce from Borneo where I'm from. My home state is called Saba. And there's a chili there that only grows in Borneo called, I think the Kunak chili, and it's a taste of my childhood.

9:34And they started bottling it, mass producing it, and they called it Sabasco. That's cool. And then recently they had to change because obviously...

9:41James Acaster: Yeah, I was going to say... It sounds like Sabo Pasco. Big Pasco caught wind of it. She's so litigious, we know that. Oh, I love this. Ed, they brought you a bottle as well. There's no bow because it's not your birthday. No, no, fair enough. Yeah, I got the bow. Thank you so much. I'm only going to try it. It's very unique for a chili sauce. I'll try some right now It's quite fruity Is it? How spicy is it? Are you punking me? It's pretty spicy It's pretty spicy James the yellow bottle is like a sweet version Oh yeah Because you know me Yeah of course It's the ice cream of chilli sauce Well I'll try the same one that Ed's trying I'm going to try Now we've been punked before by Ladbible So Yeah We were punked by them I don't think I don't think this is that bad It's very fragrant very floral Is there a spoon for me?

10:25Oh yeah

10:25James Acaster: No just I put it there for you Oh thank you Sorry it was under my mic arm I couldn't see it What do you think, Ed? You definitely got a kick to it, but there's still loads of flavour in there. Would you say it's unique? Yeah. I would say it's unique. That's a Bonio chili. Smoky and fruity. I like that a lot. I'd say more than a kick. No, I've lad bibled. I'm such a lad. I've been wang bibled. Oh no, I'm so sorry. The wang bible. The wang bible. Well, thank you for that. That's so nice of you. Thank you. That's really nice. Any like an Asian dish, a little stir fry with rice, whatever, anything with rice.

10:59Put a little on the side and just a little dibs, little dabs. I'm putting that bad boy on eggs. Yeah, that'd be good on eggs.

11:04James Acaster: That spreads across the tongue at quite a nice pace.

11:10Now, we should probably tell you what this new format is.

11:14James Acaster: Yeah, we've got a new format. It's not us eating hot sauce. No, it is nice to have an excuse just to get friends back in and fan favourites. Yeah, that's you. You're both, buddy. Which one am I? Oh, nice. You're both. Yes. You're the twofer. and this is the off-menu tasting menu. That's so good. Where we take a previous guest's dream meal that's not you. Okay. And this is what you're getting in the dream restaurant today. Great. I have no choice. This is the omikase. This is the omikase. And you can just be honest about how you feel about it and you don't have to... You can just be honest about how you feel about the menu because we're bringing it out here.

11:50It's a tasting menu. Great. Well, I'm very open-minded.

11:53James Acaster: Who do you think we might have chosen for you? What guest? I was thinking, because what I said, I guess the most controversial thing I said on my episode was that I'm not really a bread guy. Yes. I don't love bread. And so I thought, they're going to pelt me with bread. This is going to be such a bready menu. And then I thought, who do I know that likes bread? And I thought, Fern. Fern loves a loaf. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Fern loves a loaf. And I thought maybe you'd get Fern's menu up for me. You were trying to guess who it was based on the idea, the preconception that we would want you to have a horrible time.

12:29James Acaster: Yes. We're naughty boys. We're not going to lad by, will you? No. Yeah, I'm sorry. My lad brain was going over time. Yeah. You can reveal this. It's that piece of paper nearest you there that we've put. It says guest. Oh, I see. Okay, gotcha. So this is whose menu you'll be eating this evening, sir. I'm reading this now? Yes. Okay. Tonight I'll be eating the menu of Jay Rayner. Jay Rayner. Legendary food critic, Jay Rayner. I think I've done very well here, to be honest. I think you might have done. Yeah, well, not everyone would say that. Some people might be like, oh, fucking food critic. Yeah.

13:07James Acaster: But we were thinking, Wang would probably be quite excited to get a Jay Rayner meal. I'm a big fan of Jay Rayner. I've got Rayner Mania. Have you got Rayner Mania? I've read one of his books. I think his reviews are very good. I think he very adroitly balances himself between the domains of high taste and no pretension. He's got good taste, but he doesn't have much time for pretension. I think that makes the ideal food critic. There you go. We've actually done really well here. Oh yeah, big time. I can't wait. Although he does love bread. He does love bread. So it's... There's your fear coming into this.

13:50Already I'm trying to think, how have they lad-bibled me? How have the boys lad-bibled me? In the intervening six years between the last time you were in the Dream Restaurant, we've shared a lot of meals together. Yes, we have. And I think there must have been bread at those. I don't remember you sort of knocking a basket out of some poor waiter's hand. Swerving. But those were very nice breads. Yes. Those were very, very high quality breads. A lot of times they were baked on site. I mean and when they come when they turn up warm and there's like there's but but it's butter

14:25but when it like turns up warm and there's love in their eyes that's that's that's beautiful but I'm not like I don't I don't default to bread all the time and I don't try not to eat bread at the start of a meal because it just kind of takes up value valuable space I have very much the mind of like an Asian guy at a buffet is like you need to be piling on as much value protein onto the plate and bread is taking up turns out I'm an Asian guy at a buffet I always say this yeah I always say this about you I'm an Asian guy at a buffet so is my wife my wife's an Asian guy at a buffet your wife is the biggest Asian guy I've ever met yeah no we went to Vegas and went to like some big buffets like the big expensive buffets awesome and our catchphrase when we were going up to the buffet every time was be Asian.

15:15James Acaster: I'm Asian. That was the catchphrase on their way there. Hello, we'd say to everyone, I'm Asian. And they'd say right this way. Okay, that's your catchphrase, I suppose. No, it's a casino. Everyone's Asian. What are you talking about? We would shout, I'd say near the tops of our voices, quite drunk, high quality protein. High quality protein? High quality proteins! It's like a battle cry. Yeah, high value. High value. High value, that's an important thing. But does quality equal value? Not always. No. Yeah, not always. Sometimes things are expensive, worth a lot, not really worth that much. I mean, lobster was fed to prisoners in Maine.

15:54There was a protest in Maine prisons because they can't keep feeding us these bugs. And then it became fancy food and then it became expensive. And they don't get it in prison anymore, I guess. No, no, they're protesting. Let us see some goddamn lobster.

16:06James Acaster: Yeah, they send the lobster. We take it back. We take it back. It's all about perception. Did they give the prisoners like the bib and the little lobster fork? The crunching pliers thing. They got the butter. The cartoon lobster on the bib. Can you stop feeding us these bugs? But the cartoon lobster on the bib is in handcuffs. Around the claws. Looking sad. They caught me. do you think they fed the prisoners lobsters that had done crimes yeah yeah they pinched things oh yes come on it was there it's not good but it's there it was right there sometimes good that's all you can hope for as a comedian that's that it just works on a technical level it's quick and it's there it's quick and it's there yeah yeah yeah i enjoyed it i enjoyed that picture that was actually the slogan for lobster yeah on the shores of Maine.

17:01It was quick and it's there. What is your buffet technique? So first plate at a buffet. Say this is like a fancy buffet. Oh, okay. Oh, like at a Singaporean hotel. Sure.

17:17I would, well, avoid the starches. I do find it hard avoiding rice noodles, but seafood. So you want your prawns, you want lobster, crab, The Japanese area, high value, not very filling. That's the Japanese way. Sashimi. Yeah. Makis, tuna, miso soup, not filling. Miso soup's not particularly available. And then you get into your red meats. That's very high value, very expensive. So a bit of steak, a bit of a burger.

18:00James Acaster: A bit of burger. And then you start on the silverware. There's the real value. You got to start filling up on the silverware. We're talking teaspoons. We're talking little forks. We're talking the little snail forks. Those tiny little snail forks. You can pack in fucking loads of those into a pocket. then you're in prison then you're in prison then you've been fed lobster at least you got the cutlery for it I don't go to I don't go to buffets not much anymore are there fancy buffets yeah I feel like not as fancy as that I think the fanciest ones I've been to like in Vegas or it's like Vegas Dubai I was in Dubai once and went to a couple yeah yeah I have very fond memories of going to the the all you can eat buffet in Ketman when I was growing up I always used to look forward to I've shouted out Lee Gardens on the podcast before.

18:55James Acaster: But I'd be excited every single time we're going to Lee Gardens. Is that a Chinese buffet? Yeah. Lee can go either way. Yeah, yeah. But it was one of the only places sounds like a guy from Kettering and runs a gardening company. Actually, shout out to him as well. I don't want him to think I've forgotten about him. Lee Gardens, you keep on doing your thing, brother. We all appreciate your work. I'm talking about the All You Can Eat Buffet, right? Yeah, delicious. And I just get, because nowhere else did that near us. so like going there for like you know it's like one of our birthdays and just like going crazy but that's like Chinese buffets all you can eat Chinese buffets are where people really fuck up with the starches I think yeah they're going straight in with a pile of noodles and rice that's it and that's it they're not going back yeah and that's the smart thing the Chinese make an event out of the starches yeah yeah and people think oh I'm getting value here you're not no no no you're paying like a ten at all you can eat and then you've eaten less than way less than a ten is worth and you can't fit any more in you've got to go to the proteins avoid the chicken balls it's mostly batter yeah mostly batter that's how they're getting you there yeah you need to be able to see the meat yeah you need to see the meat crab legs crab claws all that kind of thing yeah yeah you have to see them all silverware silverware yeah chopsticks every chopstick you can grab we'll do water and popadoms all bread together okay he's quite brief on them oh yeah we're talking sparkly water and popadoms interesting now you gotta be happy with that yeah You were all scared about bread.

20:22James Acaster: I mean, look, please take this well. I've never had a guest get in their head so much about the bread before we've even started. You were panicking so far. Yeah. You kept being like, there's no bread on this, is there, guys? I was like, he's so scared there's going to be bread here. We know there's poppadoms. Yeah. No, I'm happy about the poppadoms. Again, not filling up too much at all there. No. You can throw on some relishes. Did he pick out any relishes? Well, I'm guessing you're having whatever you want on those poppadoms, Phil. Oh, great. Nutella. Yeah. Yeah, I like that onion salad that comes with that.

20:55So do I. Yeah. I love it. I never used to like it. I'd be like, why am I eating that? Raw onion? Are you kidding me? I started off as a mango chutney guy. Yeah. And then you realize you're eating dessert. Yeah. You need to start with some salad, a little onion, something zesty, a little lime. I guess the only problem with poppadum is I've never had it with a non-Indian meal. So this is potentially incoherent start to a meal unless the rest is... Does coherence worry you, meal-wise? Yeah. It does, yeah. I think if a meal isn't sort of thematically or culturally tied together, I feel a bit odd. All rules are out the window at a buffet.

21:36Yeah, of course. At a buffet, I'll have sushi next to a lasagna. And I'll be like, I'm getting my money's worth here. Take the rice out of the sushi, of course. Don't have to be loading up on that.

21:47James Acaster: but if do you change what hat you're wearing for each each dish a little hat yeah yeah like a hat that represents the country because we all know you're wearing a hat when you go into the buffet but will you change that hat yeah I have to bring that just to make you feel like thematically you're still kind of like you're connected to everything in some way yes so it's not that random and maybe what you're listening on your headphones you change that as well yeah I have a playlist yeah buffet it says buffet buffet 25 because it's the new year now so you're tucking into a lasagna yeah what hat are you wearing what do they have it's not no beret is french there's like an italian one isn't there what's the guy wearing on those pizza boxes you get in london chef's hat chef's oh the white the white kind of chef's hat you wear a big poofy white chef's hat um the gondola driver guys have a little beret yeah maybe gondola beret if you go with a beret for italy phil think it through because later on there's going to be there's going to be a French dish.

22:47I've already got the hat.

22:49James Acaster: What are you doing? You can't just go back and put the same beret on. It's a smaller beret, right? Yeah, I'm just going to need to squish it. Yeah. Oh, you're going to use the same beret, but squish the Italian one. Yeah, scratch it up. Well, there are certain ways of wearing berets in different regions that are like, that means you're from there. Oh, no. And you wear it differently, it means you're from a different place. I got shown it when I was in San Sebastian with Joe Lyset for Travelman. And we got to try some berets on and the guy was telling us, like if you wear it like this, you're from San Sebastian.

23:15James Acaster: If you wear it from this, you're from Bilbao. And he was like doing it all differently. So it must be the gondola guys must have their own way. But that's in Italy. So you're talking about Spain now. Yes, I was talking about Spain just now. Yeah, so you need a different beret for Spain. Well, I've got a lot of cuisines covered by one hat. As long as you know where to put the hat each time, you've got to move it. Otherwise someone will come up to you and go, what are you doing? Chinese food, are you going to wear the hat? Or are you just going to be like, oh Chinese yeah I can have either that sort of tight cap yeah then I'm just pulling the beret down a bit aren't I I'm just tugging it is that gonna look like hmm I don't know why you refuse to take more than one hat to the buffet well I'm just trying to think how much it just feels unwieldy where am I putting all these hats I think if you've got one and you keep just moving it around it's gonna feel like some like Edinburgh one man show thing do you know what I mean where they just use as little props as possible and everyone goes oh it's amazing what they did just with that beret.

24:11It completely transforms between starter and mains. Yeah, yeah. Or you're going to look like you've got knits. Yeah, people are going to think you've got knits. Like the buffet. Yeah, no, that's not good. No. Okay, well, the beret covers a lot. Other, yeah, other hats, the sombrero, that's going to take up a lot of space. I could probably fit in some of the hats into the sombrero. Yeah. The beret could go into the sombrero. And then there's often a string on the sombrero, isn't there? So you can carry that in. So it's like a hat bag. It's a hat bag it's a hat yeah and when on the way out that's why I put all the cutlery perfect in the brim you put the sombrero on just line all the forks and knives around the sombrero and then go adios we've been walking out so carefully

24:54James Acaster: yeah really slowly one step at a time sorry I'm very fine turning your neck really slowly to look at the provider as you go out yeah thank you my good man gently jangling yeah just putting your hand up just wearing that fingerless glove yeah see you later Everyone in the restaurant having to use their hands. What happened to all of them? What the hell happened to the cutlery? Where's that jangly man going? Well, hopefully this menu will be coherent for you. Okay. From Poppadoms. Look, I trust Big Jay. Okay. Your starter. This is Jay Rayner's starter. It's coming to your table now. We're putting it in front of you.

25:33James Acaster: Oysters. Marvellous. From Rooney Fish, Castleford Lock, NI. What's NI? Northern Ireland I'd imagine James Not for eaten Not for eaten Is that what it means Not for eaten Oh take me away Take me away again Bad luck Yeah Very funny from Phil there But I don't want to get off track That you didn't know what N.I. stands for I thought it was like an American Like state or something Michigan Michigan yeah Where Nish is from

26:07James Acaster: everyone speaks in a loud squawky voice yeah all the time detroit nishigan yeah um a blue state i imagine castleford lock is in northern ireland so okay yeah apologies apologies to everyone in northern ireland i've exposed myself there ignorant yeah well these sound delicious these Northern Irish. I love an oyster and actually Jay Rayner informed my oyster eating technique. Oh wow. It's in his book that he says there's all sorts of nonsense about not chewing an oyster or two chews, three chews. He says it's food, chew it. Chew, chew, chew until you've had enough chewing in his oil. This is what he does.

26:45He peels away the nonsense, old Jay. He peels away the nonsense. Yeah. So I think about Jay Rayner every time I slurp down an Northern Irish. And what do you now like chew, chew? Do you chew, chew, chew, chew, chew? I chew, chew. I chew, chew, chew. I got two, three, four. Maybe four. If it's a real good one. Sometimes you get a bit scared. Even I get scared. Even fans of oysters get a bit scared sometimes. You're like, no, actually, maybe I'm not into this, actually. Every single time, there's a little moment where I'm like, oh, what am I doing? And then I swallow and I go, that was great. So good.

27:16That was so good. And I take another, I'm like, oh, fuck, what am I doing? Oh, yeah, that's really good. They are scary. I love oysters, but every time I have them, I think I've never had a bad one that's done bad business to me. No, that's right, yeah. One day, I'm sure it'll happen. Yeah. So when could it be? I'm spinning the roulette wheel every time I have oysters. The oyster farmers, fishers, oyster men, they eat raw oysters straight off the boat when they're fishing and they slurp it and they know straight away if it's a bad one. Oh, really? After they swallow it and they swallow a bit of salt water and they throw it up over the side and they keep going.

27:51So instantly puke. Instantly puke it out, yeah. They can just tell from the taste that it's a bad one. Yeah. I went to the oyster farm in Whitstable. I filmed it for a little travel show for a video game. And the guy... Hold on a second. You might have to explain that, Phil.

28:06James Acaster: A travel show for a video game? What are you talking about? At an oyster farm. At an oyster farm. It sounds like you were filming a Marvel film and then you've had to suddenly make up what you were doing. Yeah. What are you talking about? I saw a project called Metal Guy. it was for Rome Total War which is a video game a real-time tragedy game I've always been a big fan of and they were remastering the original Rome Total War and to coincide with it they wanted to do like a funny travel around travel documentary about the Romans but it was COVID so you couldn't go to Rome so we did Roman Britain and for one episode it was about Roman British food and they ate loads of oysters did they?

28:49Romans sites archaeological archaeological sites are full of oyster shells and their walls are full of oyster shells because they reused and put in their cement. And so we went down to the Whistable Oyster Company which is the oldest company in company house in the UK. The Whistable Oyster Company is the oldest company in company's house that survived.

29:10James Acaster: I can't wait to tell that to John Robbins. He'll know that. He loves company's house so much. I can't wait to tell him that I know OD tell him. I go, he loves trivia. Yeah. So I can't wait to say to him, do you know what the oldest company in company's house is? And he'll go, no, what is it? And then at that point, I will have forgotten. It would be far enough away from this that I would have forgotten. The only bit I would have retained is that I want to tell John. And then I will realise that I don't know. And I'll say, Bill Wang. And that will be it. We've had oysters a lot together. Oh, sorry.

29:45Quite recently. They keep growing as well. Sorry, this has become oyster trivia. They keep growing. Yeah, on the beach where the oyster farm is, there was an oyster that just dropped off onto the racks years ago and it was like the size of this table it was massive because no one

29:57James Acaster: picked it up it just fell off onto the racks and they went nah leave it there fuck it see what happens I can't be bothered we'll get it tomorrow every day we'll get it tomorrow eventually how fucking big is that try lifting that it's impossible I bet that oyster you couldn't eat that though nah I bet it's disgusting it'd be horrible it'd eat you to chew or not to chew and it goes what am I doing peeps you back up again yeah bit of salt water it's not a good one Phil just like naked just slides across the floor the guy who showed us around the oyster wrecks was a very experienced oyster fisherman and he was trying to get me to shuck them which I couldn't do because the oysters are so sharp and my soft soft city hands were just breaking against the crust of these oysters and he said you're a city man Luke pointed at my hands and he went you know what we call those here and I thought oh god and he just goes lady hands I thought well that's not making the edit lady hands that'll teach us to go to Kent to know what we call those here you could have just said just take your breath mate Whatever you're about to say.

31:20James Acaster: You're not going to say nice, soft hands. Yeah. All those lovely hands. And you're very welcome here. Lady hands. Lady hands. Looks at the camera. Yeah. I've shucked oyster at home before, a couple of times. And so hard. So hard. You have to go in the opposite end that you think. Yeah, you go in the joint. The joint bit, and then get it in there, twist to unlock it, then get the knife in and try and cut all the muscle off the top all while trying to not get shell into the shell forget it and then yeah it's a nightmare it makes me really angry when I've done it I bet it does yeah yeah yeah really stressed out not worth it and then the product at the end of it is like last 0.5 seconds yeah absolutely yeah and I've probably fucked it up I've accidentally chopped it up into mints in the middle of the shell because I'm digging the knife around in there I'd do that I'd chop it all up I'd get shell all in it yeah and for like two seconds in and it being hard I'd think to myself it's not even like marshmallows in here yeah it'd be worth it I'm not even doing this for a marshmallow I'm doing it for something that I'm going to get halfway through and go yeah I'm going to freak out while I'm eating it if this was a lovely gooey marshmallow this would be worth it do you remember when we went to Rick Stein's restaurant in Padstow yes my starter the two of you yeah my starter was four oysters but it came with some spicy sausages oh wow such a nice touch.

32:44Yeah. And I didn't know this was a thing, but apparently it's quite a sort of French thing to do. You neck an oyster, have that, you know, and then take a bite of the spicy sausage straight afterwards, or take a bite with an oyster in your mouth, and it's perfect. It's so good. A little sausage chaser. Yeah, sausage chaser. Mix them in your mouth, haven't you? That's good. That's my favorite part of eating, is when you eat two animals that would never have met.

33:09James Acaster: Fucking hell. Isn't it the best? It's the most wang thing you've ever said. Loads of people. We have Roisin Conaty on the podcast once and she said she loves watching YouTube videos of animals that wouldn't normally hang out with each other. You know, who make friends in captivity and how sweet it is. I love eating them both and they never would have met. They wouldn't have. If you told an oyster about a pig, it would have lost its shit. You don't know what you're talking about. I love that. You feel like God. You eat an oyster and you eat a bit of pig. They would never have met each other. Yeah, you're in control of the whole world.

33:42having maple syrup on bacon you're pouring a tree on a pig you're pouring a tree on a pig if you tried to tell this pig winner's life I'm gonna kill you I'm gonna pour a tree on you it feels so good yeah it feels amazing

33:58James Acaster: that's what you like about it yeah that is one of those sentences that's gonna change people's lives I'm pouring a tree on a pig I'm pouring a tree on a pig every time they put maple syrup on bacon they'll think I'm pouring a tree on a pig I'm pouring a tree on a pig look at me damn right damn right every time you've sold something you've been crushing rocks onto I don't know a snail yeah it's awesome it just never gets old snails probably matter a rock snails lives in a rock poor guy yeah poor guy would you ever say like for breakfast would you say to your partner or whoever want to go and pour a tree on a pig say that to your partner sounds like you're up for some fun I wouldn't want to do that so I'm a married man here wouldn't want to give us yeah but it's an awful way of suggesting it isn't it want to go and bore a tree on a pig you've got to think what's the tree and who's the pig which tree which pig yeah true you sound like a socialite like one of those old school socialites who has dinner parties and invites people from different walks of life oh yeah yeah yeah but in this case you're eating the guests yeah that's right I'm doing a placing map a seating map for animals for dead animals to meet each other you guys are really going to get on yeah that's why I love surfing cow you have to meet lobster I think you two would get on very well if the cow was in prison it'd meet the lobster but it's one bad cow yeah you two are going to have a riot together is that a prison joke is that a prison pun no it wasn't supposed to be actually I was just enjoying enjoying being one of those annoying hosts who has dinner parties and sits people next to each other who don't know each other.

35:44And you're like, fucking hell, mate, that's not why I'm here. When you have people over for dinner, do you give them a seating plan? Do you tell them where to sit? Or just let them sit with people who they know? Probably haven't had anyone over for dinner for about three years. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

35:55James Acaster: But I wouldn't do that. No. But also, like, the worst is obviously weddings where people go, we thought we'd just mix up all the friendship groups. Like, why? How long do you think? This wedding is one fucking day. Yeah. we're not I don't need to get to know I wanted to sit with my fucking mates and slide the wedding off together and do and like all you know have a sweepstake on the speeches do fun shit yeah and now you've sat next to someone and now I've got to be on my best behaviour yeah I want to sit at the table and everyone else there is a comedian and their partner yeah and all I want to do is talk about comedy while all of our partners look increasingly annoyed yeah surely you must hate that you know like sitting next to strangers at weddings I like being sat next to someone I don't know.

36:41Wow. I like meeting new people in my 30s. People say, oh, making new friends in your 30s is hard. I find making new friends is easy. Keeping friends, that's hard. For me, that's hard. That's really hard. I make friends, I lose them. That's how I work. That's how I've always worked.

37:03James Acaster: Why do you think you lose them? What happens? I think it's because growing up, I moved around. So I moved to schools a lot. And I moved to boarding school in Borneo. And then moved here. And then I was only at school here for two years and went to university. So in my mind, I think my mind goes, oh, you have friends for two years. And then you leave. Yeah, that was just my conditioning, I think. So they just are like, where's Phil? So they don't know what's happened. No, no, no. They're messaging you going, I thought we were supposed to meet up. And you're going, check the calendar, mate. It's two years.

37:35I told you. Happy New Year, goodbye forever.

37:38James Acaster: That's what I said. I remember reading something once about a guy who had a thing, you know, a very rigid thing of like how long his relationships lasted, like romantic. So if he got in a relationship, it was, well, say 10 years. And that was how long it was going. So every relationship was the same amount of time to the point where he would say to partners, like, this is what it is with me. No matter how it's going, after 10 years, we're done. Wow. And I think at the beginning, a lot of them would think like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it would get to 10 years on the day and go, goodbye. Wow.

38:12And they'll be like, are you fucking kidding me? That's crazy.

38:14James Acaster: Yeah. How young did this guy start? 10 years is a long time. Yeah, I probably shouldn't have chosen 10 years. Oh, right, right, right. Maybe three years. Okay, okay. All right, yeah. It's obviously not 10 years. Sorry, baby. This is just something I do. I do it once. I'm not in my 50s. every single person must think I'm going to change his mind right yeah we are so right for each other this is a good relationship they're approaching the three year mark whatever it is and they're going there's no way we are this is the best relationship I've ever been in it is great did he just decide that or did his first relationship end after three years maybe the second one is a coincidence and he was like I guess that's how it has to be maybe yeah and then it just became my conditioning yeah yeah yeah it's like you with your you go well I'm off to uni now yeah so Phil you're 45 guess I'm moving yeah I'm moving again push your little bindle over your shoulder yeah go to the next town with all your hats in it all your hats in there your cut the real star your main course film yeah that Jay Rainer has chose for you some spare ribs from Louise in Harrow oh wow I don't know Louis and Harrow what's so special about these spare ribs I seem to remember Jay Rayner saying that he likes the ritual of like eating something with your hands yeah fun getting stuck in especially once I've been you've got no choice yeah sure because I've I've got the self on you've got the self on my hat so yeah I love ribs one I never understood what makes a rib a spare rib what's a spare yeah especially since those are the ribs you see the most that's right so they're not left over yeah yeah yeah they're the full rib yeah if those are spare ribs what are the spares like?

40:05what are the spares like? what are the spare ribs? what yeah do we know? no I guess maybe traditionally it's not just the ribs left over when it was when a pig was being butchered maybe maybe they were the cheapest bits that no one wanted so they were the spare ribs and then they were like became the most desired bit and they're just still called spare ribs why wouldn't you call them just ribs though? it's not like you butcher a pig and go Well, that's a spare anus. No one wanted the anus. Spare anus.

40:35James Acaster: It does make it more appealing. That anus is going begging. This anus is going begging. Do you remember the urban myth a few years back where people were saying that calamari was a deep fried pig anus? No. This was a thing I read. I'll be honest, no. I read a thing and it said, be careful. But calamari... Be careful. It starts with be careful. Hi, guys. Be careful. That all the calamari out there, some of it might be pig anus. Some of it might be, not all of it. Some of it just to sort of, you know, beef up portions. But you would love it. You'd be like, a squid and a pig would never meet. Shoveling it in.

41:15James Acaster: Yum, yum, yum. Well, I thought surely a pig's anus is more expensive than a squid. There's the many rings of squid in a squid. There's only one anus on a pig. Not any one. You think that's what makes it more expensive? you think if someone's just butchered a pig they've got all the like all the choice cuts that people usually eat so many chops only one anus they're like I've only got one anus here so you better you better pony up some pretty big bucks for this I'll start the bidding at 50 pounds for the anus you can take the chops I don't give a shit about the chops the thing's full of chops there's anus so it gets quite difficult for these chefs who are just like I need a whole bowl of what looks like calamari?

41:58James Acaster: How am I going to get enough pig anuses for this? Yeah. Well, maybe just some of them will be pigs anuses. I love that it's only some of them. Like, why just why not just give one less calamari? I don't think anyone's going to notice. No. They're going, oh, no, they're expecting seven calamari out of this. I can't start a whole new squid. Well, they've printed the menu. The menu says seven calamari. As it always does, yeah. Seven exact calamaris. Don't look at one of them too hard. Is one calamari a calamaro? That makes me feel sick. Calamaro. Because, you know, it's like with Italian food like the I is always the plural yeah yeah so is one calamari a calamaro maybe it is a calamaro yeah because I guess ravioli raviolo yeah is it raviolo raviolo is like a big ravioli yeah is that true I think so raviolo is definitely true I've not heard spaghetto before yeah I thought spaghetto was just like you're thinking spaghettios yeah I think you're thinking of spaghettios Phil like a tin of spaghetti hoops yeah which by the way are sparrow anuses they are little birdie anguages that they put in it's just cheaper in blood it's just cheaper not all of them not all of them not all of them that would be nuts that would be beyond the pale but some of them are I feel like I'd notice if there was a pig anus in my calamari I would have thought so surely it would look different to the rest of them none of us are saying we know what pig anuses look like no I'm not saying that no but calamari are like you can see through the middle of it right yeah surely the pig anus to act as an anus it has to be quite puckered.

43:29Right, right. But sort of liberated from the sphincter. No, the sphincter is the inside. Liberated from the anal muscles does it loosen. Maybe when it's heated it expands. Maybe they let the pig sniff some poppers before they... Sniff these. Kill it, kill it! Even with a popper budget it's still cheaper. Yeah, yeah.

43:55James Acaster: And then people get suspicious at that point, surely. Why are you wanting to sniff these palms? You're not going to pour a tree on me, are you? I'll sniff it, but stay away from my anus. Ribs, yeah. I like a rib. When someone says ribs, I assume they're going to be spare ribs. That's always what they call the Chinese takeaway ribs. It's always called spare ribs. I guess that's what spare ribs are. But then a rack of ribs, it's never called a rack of spare ribs. That's just the rack of ribs. Yes. Some places it is, I think, but they are the spare ribs. They're the long ones, right? Oh. Compared to baby back ribs.

44:34And what are baby back ribs? The smaller ones. Oh, so the spare ones are the long ones at the end. Yeah, I think so, yeah. Okay, well, that might be a day. Yeah, I love ribs. I love all the sauces that come with the ribs. The barbecue, the Sichuan. And any others?

44:50James Acaster: I was making that noise in his mouth. I can't remember what Jade Rayner wanted, but I guess they're more in the sort of American style of barbecue. Barbecue sauce, smothered ribs. I love pulling meat off a bone. It makes me feel like God. That's the second time you said that. I just like food that makes me feel like God. I just like food that makes me feel like God. And it's going to only end one way. Sort of medieval, right? Pulling meat off a bone and eating it with your hands. You want to throw the bone away like God. So sick. I want to feel like the corrupt king at the end of Return of the King.

45:23you know Lord of the Rings he bites the tomato and it goes and like tearing meat off like a leg so so sick we don't pull enough meat off bone in this country in Malaysia everything is on the bone I didn't really come across like breast like just chicken breast on its own until I moved to the UK that is the part that people don't want in Asia because it's not so flavourful and it gets dry Michael to England. My father is a Chinese guy and they all have the skill of just shoving a piece of animal in their mouth. And they go and the mouth just moves around. Yeah. And then he'll lean over and he'll spit out.

46:09Perfect, shining little bones. Wow.

46:12James Acaster: It's awesome. Like God. Yeah. Exactly like God. You know how, like on the TV show, sometimes a sexy lady will flirt with a man by putting a cherry stem in her mouth and then she puts it out and it's tied in a knot. I eat a little bird. And I say madam and I mount a little napkin. Madam. Spit a beacon into a napkin. Just the beacon. It's the whole skeleton, I guess. Yeah, yeah, the whole skeleton. All of it. And then you say, Phil Wang, pleased to meet you. It spells out Phil Wang, pleased to meet you. The birds. Sometimes if like chickens like char grilled or anything like that, the small bones, if they've been like char grilled and they're like a bit carbonated, I'm crunching those down.

47:02Yeah.

47:03James Acaster: This guy, I learn something new about him every episode. I love it. I love like being able to crack through a crunchy bone. Cartilage, love cartilage. What would you say it makes you feel like when you do that? It makes me feel like a god. Ah, I think I know this feeling. If you were a god, Phil, what would be the first thing you'd say? if you woke up if you were Jim Carrey and Bruce Almighty what would you do

47:29sorry Phil just put a small bird in his mouth yeah

47:31James Acaster: he's just showing me trying to float rather than telling me what he would do this is what I would do I'm I'm pretty I'm pretty satisfied with how the world is what it's not a responsible thing to say outstanding answer I think the world is great in 2025 didn't even need to talk about the state of the world could have just come up with something mad that you do if you're a god but you went with i'm pretty satisfied with the state of the world i think the world is good i can't think of anything that people are complaining about at the moment all seems pretty good to me i don't know man it's just it's too big an ask i don't know i wouldn't know where to where to start every you know you you want to say well i'd get rid of all war and injustice, but it'll arise.

48:18We're built to fight and to be unfair to one another. It's how we're built. Every time we try and affect... What the hell are you on about? Every time we try and affect something from the top down that changes this nature of ours, it ends... Yeah, but being a god is not top down. I think... Well, there's nothing more top down than being a god. No, because you can literally control everything that happens. It's not like you need to worry about the consequences. That sounds like a lot of work. I'm checking in every day. See how it's going. Yeah, you're God, man. Yeah. I just wanted to put tree on a pig.

48:49And now you've got to control every conflict in the world. Yeah. I think I wouldn't want to be like a monotheistic Abrahamic God. Because that's too much of a broad scope. I want to be one of the pantheon gods. Yeah. Like an Egyptian or a Greek. Or they had some fucking good times. A God of something. A God of something.

49:14James Acaster: A God of something. would you be the god of i'd be the god of when you need to buy something with cash and you have just enough change that rounds you that is like the thing is um 13 pound uh 15 pens yeah and you have a tenner and a five pound note yeah but you also have 15 pens yeah so you give 10 pounds five pounds 15 pence and you get two pounds yeah back yeah i once did that at a supermarket in london and the the checkout lady very confusingly gave me two pounds back after even though the price had some pence at the end of it and she honestly said to me how have you done that so i'd be the god of that yeah yeah like you're darren brown or something she's looking for hidden cameras.

50:08I mean,

50:08James Acaster: I've got to assume you're getting bullied at God school if that's what you're the God of. The rest of them are doing the proper... We know what the God's wearing. Yeah, absolutely. Everyone else wearing robes and stuff. You're turning up wearing your fleece. One life, live it, which is absolutely redundant if you're a God. Yeah, one life is forever though. Yeah, I'm living it. I'm loving it. With your fleece on, your glove. Okay, well, I think you'll be a good god of God. Thanks, man. So will people pray to you to make sure that that happens for them? Well, these gods, these Pantheon gods, you know, when you dig into it, some of them are really specific what they're gods of.

50:45And that's a pretty good one. That's a pretty cushy one. You'd have to do very much work and you get to be a god. Yeah, they'd pray for me. They'd offer up loose change at the altar. Yeah. I think it'd be sick. But you don't want that as a god, though. They'd have to offer up proper coins and notes, right? No, but I guess, no, I want loose change so that I can keep having the feeling of it. but isn't the experience only good because you don't receive any loose change back and get rid of the loose change initially oh yeah you're right actually yeah you're gonna have to put some more work in if you wanna be the god of this even god is hard this is what I was saying earlier yeah you just wanna feel like a god yeah by putting a tree on a pig or eating cheese on a fish

51:30James Acaster: that's a good one yeah putting cheese on a fish you're putting a cow onto a fish yeah that's nice They have no idea about each other. No one's ever milked a cow over a river. No one's ever been milking a cow and just at the point where they squeeze the teat, the bucket gets washed away and a fish happened to be going past. Never. And they go, what was that? Never you mind what that was. You're a cow. You'll find out in the afterlife. Also, their eyes are pointing on the side. I don't think they can actually look down at the water. Most of the cows have seen the sea, but the cows never met a fish.

52:03James Acaster: most cows have seen the sea I would say most cows have seen the sea yeah that's definitely not true yeah some cows have seen the sea I thought that Phil said most cows no no no you thought you had me there you really thought you had me there when you thought I said most cows have seen the sea I thought I got him yeah

52:25James Acaster: your side dish we're looking at a side dish now yeah it's buttery cabbage made by Jay Rayner this is mad because i do his i'm starting to sound jay reyne obsessed yeah i do his buttery cabbage recipe from his book oh this is huge this is such a coincidence it's it's lots of lots of cabbage and then just loads of chicken stock and just keep going and going and going that's it that's what he put on his dream meal so you've actually had it before i i make it yeah i've made it i haven't made it in a while actually i gotta get back on that it's fantastic this is fantastic wow it's full of butter and stock see we just had a feeling we were like Let's choose Jay Rayner for Bill.

53:02James Acaster: We think that'd be good. We think, because we're not trying to, we weren't trying to do what you thought we're going to do and like punk you. We're trying to give you something that, well, you think he would vibe with this a little bit. We were so on the money because you're eating this anyway. Absolutely. I love it. How often do you make Jay's buttery cabbage? I haven't for a bit, but I went through a period of like having it basically every other meal I would make this buttery cabbage. Wow. It's so good, man. It goes with so much. I love cabbage. Yeah. Shout out to cabbage. I mean, cabbage is, you know, It's got so many societies through so much across the world, you know?

53:36Europe to Asia, the cabbage has been the foundation of civilization. And it's still like people think badly of cabbage quite a lot. Yeah. I think. People think it's like lame and farty and stuff. Farty, yeah.

53:50James Acaster: Farty is something that gets leveled at it a lot. Charlie Bucket's family have cabbage soup. Delicious. In Charlie Talks. Not so bad. After all, being a bucket. look like cabbage soup it's better for you than fucking chocolate yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean any sort of buttered green side big big fan I think this does sound good I've still not had it the buttered cabbage a la Jay Rayner oh yeah but are you literally just cooking the cabbage in stock are you cooking it in the stock or yeah lots of butter at the start to fry it up and then kind of like a risotto you keep adding okay so it's like it evaporates yeah amazing that's really good it's really nice it's delicious so you can just make this you've just got it in your head now you know how to do it it's very easy you've got your own feel how much to add at each point sometimes some crushed fennel seeds in there is really nice wow Phil lots of pepper obviously yeah yeah man it's the best it's really good you must think of Jay Rayner when you're eating oysters and when you're eating cabbage yeah I think about Jay Rayner a lot actually yeah he's a lucky guy to get to live inside this to live rent free in this place.

55:02James Acaster: You know he plays jazz piano as well. Yeah. He plays the piano. Have you been to one of his gigs? And too busy eating cabbage. Yeah. I imagine you're like learning his songs to play like Jay Rain. You could eat a load of cabbage, then go to his gigs, hop on stage and play the butt trumpet. The buttery trumpet. Yeah. I was not expecting butt trumpet. He would have to come, place it on my calamari and get going. a super fan oh no this always happens ripping out a solo from your ass someone's read my cookbook and now they're here I think of you all the time Jay I think of you all the time we saw in the new year I can't remember if it was New Year's Eve Ed and I watched Jay Rayner on Pointless yes win Pointless to be fair to me with Thomasina Myers Yes.

55:57James Acaster: Another guest. Another guest on the pod. So, you know, we're rooting for them. Because we're like... Oh, yeah. Invested interest. They've both been on this podcast. We want them to win. Because then we've won. Yes. Even though Ed... Have you guys done Ed? Pointless celebs. Yes. How'd you do it? I've done it a couple of times. Both times I did it with Nish. Yeah. From Michigan. From Michigan. First time we crashed out after two rounds. Second time we won. Nice one. Oh, you won the jackpot? Yeah. Wow. Won the jackpot. Absolutely thrashed Peston into the middle of next week. Peston's gone see you later that must have felt good yeah it was really good the round that got us through to the final was towns it was like pictures of town halls and the name and like just some letters missing yeah and obviously Minish were all over small places of course yeah from gigging I got Altrincham because I cancelled a gig there the week after well that's Altrincham wrote that in an email recently I know how those letters go I shall not be coming to Altrincham and then we lucked out because the final round was actors in Marvel films and superhero films yeah there was wow I mean those two categories are Nisha's life yeah yeah absolutely and I was throwing ones out there that Nisha's like yeah whatever but they were also pointless but we got a pointless answer on Michael Goff whoa who's Michael Goff?

57:16Alfred in the original Batman films the Michael Keaton Batman films wow one of the great Alfreds yeah yeah really good Alfred yeah The first time I did Pointless, I did it with Sindhu V. Yeah. And we got the Jackpot Baby. Oh, yeah. Wow. Sindhu said Eritrea and bang, bang, bang. We were champions. What was the category? Places where Phil would... It was American states or African countries with seven letters in the name or more. My God. Jesus, that's a mortal. She knocked out. I've never seen someone say Eritrea so fast. It's a lot more specific. And then I did it again with Pierre Novelli. Yes.

57:56And we got to the final. We won, but then we were asked to name some Idris Elba movies. Oh no. And I said Thor 2. Yeah. And we didn't win. Too high. Too high. Not as high as you think Thor 2. A lot of people knew that film.

58:11James Acaster: Or he was in it. He was in it. A lot of people, I think the qualifier, yeah, the fact that there's a lot of people knew Idris Elba was in Thor 2. But my thinking was, well, everyone's going to say Thor. Yeah. I was going to say Thor 2. Dark World. It turned out people did. A lot of people said it.

58:33So, Phil, we all thought you were about to say something there. You said, um, cleared your throat. And then you said, 100%. The most Benito's ever laughed on the podcast.

58:46James Acaster: Yeah, Benito absolutely lost. His head spun round. Over and over again. That's the clip. This is my life, man. People always think I'm going to say something, and I'm not. All the time. Well, you should stop. You went... Buy tickets for Phil's next tour? You went...

59:05James Acaster: You were still looking at the table. You weren't even looking at any of us. It's like, where's Phil gone? He's not even in the room anymore. That's how you should open your next show, man.

59:21here's a drink coming for you oh yum it's a vodka and lime this is an odd choice he's knocking

59:27James Acaster: back a vodka with with ribs ribs buttery cabbage he's had some oysters and now he's gonna have a vodka and lime vodka and cabbage thematically culturally consistent yes no problem with that then the ribs I think you were hoping for some wine weren't you Phil I was a little bit in the intervening six years you know I was hoping for some wine Phil's a wine boy now you are such a wine boy that I think it's something that a lot of people know about you you did choose wine on the podcast I believe when you came on Off Menu but you were kind of going I'm just going to get into wine and I think wine's nice I took Ed's suggestion of a Riesling yeah so that was where you were at that point I'm still open minded Ed could say something to you and you'd be like yeah I'll try that what did I recommend six years ago because I don't think I knew anything about Riesling really but you're right yeah yeah or just generally Riesling yeah yeah and that's it's still it's still it's still the cool the cool white wine it is especially for us we're in we're in we're in we're in a little club yeah you two are in a wine club which is we're a gang we're a gang of just a gang of chaps every time Ed goes out on those it'll be like well we've you know we've just finished recording an episode and I'd like what are you up to tomorrow he's like oh I'm going going away with the the wine guys Ollie and Phil and Pierre and we're just going to go Freddie and Freddie and we're just going for a wine weekend and I'm like oh yeah and he was like yeah yeah should be nice should be nice it'd be good to see the guys and just get together I've never said this it's an awful just get together have some wines it should be you know it's been Joe what it should be a quiet one you know I've been out a few times recently I just fancy a quiet weekend.

1:01:09James Acaster: Pace ourselves. The next day, send me a selfie of all of you looking like cartoon characters whose eyes are going all over the place. You're all trying to look like upstanding gentlemen. You're absolutely like, your heads are disappearing into your fucking neck. It's all like, mouths open, just hanging open. Bright red, red mouths, lips. Half open eyes, but always like, hold it up your glasses, And then gathered around some incredible looking food that hasn't been touched yet. So like amazing, just like a pig's head. It's like shining. And they all go, it's like day one. The bottle picks at the end.

1:01:55You take a picture of all the bottles we've had. The line-up. There's a lot. There's always a lot in the line-up. Yeah. It's so fun, man.

1:02:01James Acaster: But yeah. May I say, Phil, you're usually the one who looks the most sober in the picks. Thank you. Well, I'll tell you why that is. Oh, no. you've already mentioned you've mentioned this yeah on the podcast before yeah it's always good to recap it though yeah so when you've got a few bottles going around and you're enjoying tasting them and like you might have like four or five glasses in front of you yeah you know you're tasting them but then you're drinking yeah and Phil is very slow when he drinks I don't think I am well we've all finished our glasses and Phil always has more like even when we want to open another bottle Phil's got some some of every wine left and we were in a restaurant called Otto and Otto came over and he looked at the situation and he turned to Phil and he said, ah, you are the baby of the group.

1:02:46He's German, by the way. That wasn't just a bold choice. I don't even care where he's from.

1:02:50James Acaster: I enjoyed the voice. I don't care where Otto's from. So Phil is the baby of the group. I am the baby. And then at the end of the night, after everyone had finished their wines and I had a few left over, he patted me on the shoulder and said, come back when you've grown up. Well, I've told it again. It was longer this time. Come back when you've grown up. It's such a horrible thing to say because someone else they're leaving your restaurant. And we've not been back. Obviously my favourite wine memory with Phil is going to do Masterminds together in Pelfast. Yeah. So I know where that is. Yeah, yeah.

1:03:26James Acaster: In Michigan. Yeah, in Michigan. Of course. And I've probably talked about the podcast before but I like talking about it because I like that first of all my main reason was food related for doing Masterminds in Pelfast because I wanted some seafood chowder so that was my main thing I'd said to the production could you let me know whether that's good seafood chowder for the night before I'd bunched to Phil at the airport didn't even know that we were both going to be on it we were on different episodes I was like Phil you've got to come out tonight and get some seafood chowder I'll be revising tonight I was like for what?

1:04:01What are you talking about? Mastermind tomorrow

1:04:05James Acaster: New Zealand wines is my it's my specialist subject I need to revise I was like Phil come out for just a you've got to eat at some point is what I said to him okay comes out has a seafood I'm thinking in my head he's going to stay out we're going to go to the Crown we're going to have a pint of Guinness like he's going to stay out have the seafood out it's like no I'm going back to my room I was like come on Phil it's like and he went he just went to his room revised I was like I can't fucking believe this shit I went back to my hotel I'm just sitting there fucking bored out of my mind I can't believe this 8 o 'clock or something when are you going to the Crown?

1:04:39James Acaster: I'm going on my own I'm going to go with Phil Wang I thought my buddy's here this is great I'm calling the school night though I couldn't believe it well that's the thing let's mastermind the next morning you were calling it a school night and you would talk about the whole thing in school terms because the next morning we have the briefing and there's all the celebs there including the guy from the the pottery throwdown show who cries all the time and Michelle Gale of course and Michelle Gale was on my episode and after we'd all been briefed, which is very, very serious, she said, I'm going to circulate.

1:05:09James Acaster: I'm going to meet some people. She said to me, I'm going to go around. I'll be back in a minute. I'm going to speak to some people I haven't met before who are on the other episode. She goes away. I talk to someone else. She comes back. She's not as chipper as she was when she left me. She goes, do you know that man? I look over. Phil is sat apart from everyone else on his own, on a seat, but with his legs together because he's balancing a folder on them, like a full, like, lever arch folder going through these laminated pages one by one very seriously. And she went, do you know that man? I went, yes, that's Phil Wang.

1:05:46James Acaster: And she went, I said to him, do you want to have a chat? And he said, no, it's exam day. He just told me, no, it's exam day. I was like, well, he's very serious about this, Michelle. I've known him for a while and he wouldn't go for a pipe with me last night because he had to revise. and then he went on and he got all of them right but one I got all my specialist subject all your specialist subject right 10 out of 10 and then I think you only got one wrong on the other one absolutely destroyed it yeah of course because you revised I've got a photo on my phone of Phil doing his specialist subject that I took in the green room of the TV and it's just him looking the happiest I've ever seen anyone on a TV everyone else in Mastermind just looking shit scared panicking Phil just smiling because he's done the work and he's loving getting them all right.

1:06:34It was so fun, man. It was so fun just nailing those questions. You felt like... Boom, boom, boom. What did you feel like? I guess I felt like I can't. That's actually how our wine gang came about. Yes, that's right. Because you wanted to revise for it and you'd met Freddie. Wow, I didn't know this. He works for the Wine Society and he suggested a meal. Well, because Freddie was the buyer there for New Zealand. Yeah, for New Zealand, yeah. And he brought you a folder of stuff to... No, I brought his notes to Belfast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The very notes that infuriated Michelle Gale. Little did Freddie know, one day these notes will piss off Michelle Gale.

1:07:10James Acaster: So when Michelle Gale came up to me and went, do you know that man? Before I looked over, I thought in my head, please be Phil.

1:07:18Do you know that man?

1:07:19James Acaster: I agree. Oh, this is Phil Waggons. It'll be great. Yep, there he is. I was the only one who brought notes to the morning meeting. I couldn't believe it. I was the only one who brought notes to breakfast. You couldn't believe it? Guess what? The rest of us couldn't believe it either, Phil. You're not the only one who couldn't believe it. We were like, does this guy know this is a laugh? Celebrity mastermind. Meanwhile, James is asking me, do you think they'll let me bring a real ice cream on to set? That was the thing that he was really worrying about. I don't know if I can bring a real ice cream on to set.

1:07:47James Acaster: Because you were doing history of ice cream. I thought it'd be funny to sit down while eating an ice cream. I thought it'd be really funny, especially because on mastermind they zoom in slowly on the guy who's being questioned. Or gal. and it'd be so funny if as it's getting closer James an ice cream just comes just rises from the bottom of the screen he just basically like he needs it to understand the question you were terrified though yeah I was terrified the amount of texts I got from the dressing room being like why have I said yes to this I've not revised why didn't I do any revision you did pretty well considering you got four four out of four I did quite well on it yeah but I was in the dressing room I was completely like I should have been more like Phil Wang like I would have lost a lot of friends and I wouldn't have been popular here but I would not be panicking as much as I'm panicking now because I've not revised this whatsoever so yeah just to clarify the vodka lime is just vodka and lime cordial and it's like a gin gimlet I do like a gimlet very much so I'm open to that really cold and in one of those small coupe glasses wow and the level of the liquid is right flush with the top of the lip of the glass cocktails like that are when it helps to be the baby of the group it's a small it's a small amount of baby alcohol little sips little sips you're one of those people I look around we're having a cocktail 15 minutes into the cocktail I look and you're still halfway through the cocktail me I've got both my hands around it like when a kid is drinking juice it's a school night me I'm getting that that's gone martini anything in a small coupe two sips gone really yeah big time and then I'm in space.

1:09:26James Acaster: Yeah, he's in space. Around Christmas, Ed was going to space quite a lot. I was getting texts from him pretty much every day because you went somewhere nice, I think, and every day you were like, text me, I've just had a hot chocolate with marshmallows and cream in it. And then in a separate text, I'm in space. The next day, I've just had an Irish coffee. Next text, I'm in space. It was so good. To the point where it got to be that he was texting me what he'd had and then going, guess where I am. Are you in space again? Houston, we have a problem. Like, they're just busting out all that stuff.

1:10:01Oh, yeah. I love, it turns out I love a boozy hot chocolate and an Irish coffee. And I very rarely have Irish coffee, but it's so good. It is. Yeah, it turns out like sweet boozy chocolatey things are just really nice. It's really nice. But it was cold and like there was a fire in the place we were in. It's all about the ambiance, isn't it? Off to space. Did I go to space this Christmas? Yeah. I think so. I had some really nice

1:10:28James Acaster: We're laughing because you've instantly adopted the phrase I'm in space from eating something but you've just thought about it very seriously of going, did I go to space this Christmas? Yeah Yeah I must have We love people adopting phrases and parroting phrases anyway but especially when you adopted it in a way that it's like you've been saying it all your life Yes It instantly became completely normal to you What took you to space this Christmas? What took me to space this Christmas is I try and do the wine pairings for family Christmas. Beautiful. And before I always bring like a red for the turkey for the main, like a light red.

1:11:04But this year I thought I'm going to do Chardonnay all the way. Whoa. So we started with the Blanc de Blanc champagne, which means only white grapes. Yes. Champagne, which is primarily, if not all Chardonnay. I think it is all. I think Brandy Walsh is hosting that now. Who's hosting that now?

1:11:24Blanc de Blanc I think I'll just chip in and say I think Blanc de Blanc has to be 100 % Chardonnay I think it is 100 % Chardonnay because the other grapes are Petit Meunier I think and Pignoire Pignoire Pignoire Petit Noire and then and then for Mainz I had two Burgundy style Chardonnays one from New Zealand from Camero River which is meant to be the great Burgundian sort of white wine of the new world and then to compare that with the classic white burgundy from Paulini Montrachet which was do your family enjoy this because yeah because you are I've tried things like this with just my wife yeah and my family sometimes oh yeah it's not my dad my dad would do this if I tried this shit with anyone they'd be like you're the most boring man in the world stop ruining Christmas

1:12:15James Acaster: yeah and Phil just for the record this was also going to be my question I was about to ask it's astonishing It's astonishing how little people care about this. It reminds me of when I used to make mixtapes for people when I was growing up. I still am obsessed with music, but I would be like, I want them to like every single thing and know every single thing. And here's the tape. And then they'd be like, thank you, I've never listened to this. And I'd have to accept that as I get older. So I admire that you're like... You want them to know the connections between all the songs and... Sure. Why you put this one after this one.

1:12:49So in that situation where you're telling everyone about the wine, how they all relate to each other, we're comparing these two. What are you doing, which is definitely happening, they're ignoring you and just talking and getting on with their Christmas. Do you get angry or do you just accept it's happening? I just slowly get quieter. I just get quiet, slowly quieter, quieter, and then I just stop talking and then I pour the wine. But I also do a thing when I'm talking while I'm pouring the wine to people so that there's this implication that if you don't listen to me, you don't get any wine. That's the implication.

1:13:21I'm not saying it. out loud but that's the implication you have to be in a position of power for the brief period where you want people to listen to you this applies throughout life if they talk to someone else about something else do you stop pouring? I just stop pouring I take their glass and I pour it back into the bottle get the funnel out I did that to you once because I know it annoys Charlie so I will do things like I had two bottles I accidentally across the period of five years bought two different bottles of Barolo which was the same but different vintages five years apart fascinating and I said well we'll do a vertical tasting let's compare these vintages lucky lady yeah she starts packing her bags yeah it's awkward to be there for it

1:14:03James Acaster: yeah she's left finally left dessert time yum and there's a bit of a story behind this but it's quite simply a chocolate eclair oh yeah I don't like shoe pastry. This is what I said to Jay Rainer and he was not happy about it. Interesting. Yeah, I find shoe pastry, even when it's done right, it's kind of dry and papery and weird. Totally agree. I don't dig it. Totally agree. Don't like shoe pastry. He said, you need to go to Matra Shoe and not there anymore. I always think though, when you say to someone, I don't like this type of food, and they go, well, you got to go to this one place in the world.

1:14:45It's probably not good food. if there's one place in the world where the food is nice then it is not good yeah I don't like I don't like shoe pastry I don't like eclairs because you did go he told you

1:14:58James Acaster: go to make your shoe yeah it was better than because it was like quite thin shoe pastry so the cream was really nice yeah so like sweetened cream but I don't like eclairs when they're all the round ones where you buy them from like the supermarket and they've got that shit cream in them I hate that the um patisserie profiteroles yeah that's what I meant and I didn't say the name but it's the same thing round of clothes yeah yeah I loved the profiteroles that we sold at the the second pub that I worked at the profiteroles there I was just going into the walking fridge pretty regularly and popping them in my mouth were they making their own profiteroles no they got them in but they were just full they were proper packed yeah yeah yeah and I would just like pop one in while I'm doing something I'll be like I gotta go round back and sweep up the the walk-in fridge profiteroles don't come in if you hear chewing that's me cleaning I make a strange chewy sound bam I enjoyed that a lot I don't I don't dig Claire's as as a dessert I think it's too insubstantial really and it's kind of too light and airy kind of like airy and I think you can start something start the meal with something cold and like airy and light but to finish a dessert is there to fill you up if the rest of the meal hasn't done so.

1:16:16Is there to just fucking, like, beat you? Like, just to knock you out to, like, fucking fill a space. So that's when you don't want to feel like a god, is when you get to dessert. I want to be defeated by the dessert. You want the dessert to be god. And that's why I love British desserts, I think. Like, Britain gets a lot of flack for its food, but the desserts are so nice.

1:16:38James Acaster: What are we talking? Banoffee pie, the goat. Sticky toffee pudding. You're not hungry after sticky chocolate. You're not hungry at all. Bread and butter pudding. Spotted dick. Spotted dick. A spotted dick. Apple crumble if you're feeling healthy. It's so good. It's so filling. And those are always the desserts I want at the end. Well, his reason for the chocolate eclair was because his dad would bring back a load of stuff from the bakery for the family to eat on a whatever, on Saturday. And he would have, won't you want eclair? The dad would buy one eclair and it was for himself. So no one, and little Jay Rainer would be like, Daddy, can I have the eclair?

1:17:21James Acaster: No, that's my eclair. So now it's a thing that he's always coveted. Well, now that there's a traumatic story behind it, how could I not have an eclair? Wow. Gosh. That's kind of a dark reason to want eclairs. Yeah, I guess originally when you told it, it didn't sound dark. I've made it sound... I think you did make it sound dark when he told you that. Did I? Yeah, I think... I think you found it really funny. I found it funny, but I was like, fuck that guy, who I guess is your dad. But like, you know, what's he doing not getting two eclairs? But also that's clearly maybe one of the things that's driven Jay Rain to become a food critic, that he can have whatever he wants whenever he wants it.

1:17:58So if anything, thank you, daddy.

1:17:59James Acaster: Yeah, and you can say, I mean, this is everyone, isn't it? Yeah. Anybody can say, well, thank your, thank whatever parent it is for the trauma that's led to you doing this job. Yeah. It's eclair-based trauma, though which is one of the lowest forms of trauma yeah at least for him it's like I just wasn't allowed an eclair my dad would eat one there's still other stuff from the bakery as well yeah he's still got some baked goods but he doesn't care about those anymore he just wants an eclair so he can eat it and go do you think you can make your kids do the job you want them to do by giving them the appropriate traumatic experience about it?

1:18:31yeah I think so

1:18:32James Acaster: like just not letting your kids have paracetamol yeah you've got access not all the paracetamol I want you can take the back of the computer out and fiddle around there and off their heads, you know. Oh, yeah, yeah. I thought you were trying to make someone like a computer scientist, yeah. Oh, no. You fuck the computer up. You go in and fuck the computer up and go, go on, fix that. Fix that, otherwise you can't play your video games. Yeah. You can't play Roman World or whatever you were... Roman World. Promoted. Roman World. If you played as much Rome Total War as I did, you would laugh so much at Roman World.

1:19:11the idea of it being called Roman world is hilarious

1:19:14James Acaster: was there anything in your house growing up that was like daddy has that and you can't have it

1:19:30like a car I was like I always wish as a kid I could drive places because when I grew up there was no public transport so if you were at home I declared the dragon's gloves already Dad, why do you think I bought this glove? Let me drive the car You can have the other glove when you're 18 Yeah, I think like just having a car and money I was like it feels very hard to do anything without a car and money How old are you when you're saying this? Like six

1:20:02James Acaster: Little Phil Wang walking around It's so hard to do anything without cars and money and do you drive now yeah yeah I got a little car got a couple of quid yeah it worked out when you're driving along you're like I did it I'm my dad yeah who's the daddy now in your face daddy in your face daddy I'm behind the wheel you couldn't stop me I can go wherever I want so cruel that he stopped you driving when you were six yeah this is exactly the same as Jay Rainer's dad not buying a second declare dad you can just buy another car this is the problem here what kind of car you got I've got a hybrid Toyota Yaris good for the environment good for the wallet

1:20:44James Acaster: Phil patted his wallet there beautiful well Phil did you enjoy Jay's tasting menu? I really enjoyed Jay's tasting menu he's a man of fine taste obviously and it's nice to have the cabbage dish that I know so well I haven't had in a while oysters big old fan a little tiny cold vodka cocktail in the middle of it. Delish. Spare ribs? Spare ribs. Forget about the main ribs. I'll take this. Yeah, I just... And you're getting messy with those as well. I'm shoving the mouth. It's pulling the bone out like, I mean, like Flintstones or something. Was there a starch to go with the ribs? He didn't shout it out.

1:21:23No. Do you want to add one? I feel, yeah, I feel foolish after my whole rant about bread. I'm now asking for starch. Oh, go for it. With the ribs, Just some chips, I think, with ribs. Just some chips. Love it. I don't think we've... We've only done one other tasting menu before and I don't think we gave them a chance to add anything. We didn't, no.

1:21:45James Acaster: That's a new thing. I think you can upgrade one dish. Yeah, it should be an upgraded dish. But Phil's a god. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Phil's a god in this. So you've got to let Phil do what he wants to some degree. The other person we had on was John Kern, so barely a man. so and the secret ingredient for Jay which would have gotten kicked out of the restaurant was hairy crackling which I don't know if you think that's fair do people specify hairy crackling yeah well in terms of like what they don't like yeah it's a huge genre in the don't like yeah yeah massive very popular in don't likes I made some chicken crackling once you ever made the chicken crackling I see it on Instagram quite a lot so nice You have to scrape the chicken skin.

1:22:29That seems to be what people do. That's what I realized I had to do. Because I put a picture of this chicken crackling up on Instagram and people were just like, UGH! Because of all the little bits of feathers. The gelatiness bit. Oh, right. The hairs and the feathers and stuff were still on it. The feathers? Not the feathers, but I don't know what the smallest bit of the feather stem is. Like the pimples. Yeah, there's some sort of little chicken hair coming out of the pimples there.

1:22:52James Acaster: So you took that photo. Yeah. You looked at it, I guess, before you posted it. Yeah. And did you think delicious? Yeah. Posted it. And then you were surprised at the comments. That were like, that's disgusting. Yeah, I just expected people to be more open-minded than clearly they are. So you wouldn't mind hairy crackling, I'm guessing. Yeah. Right on, give it to me. Yeah. I've had crackling where the brand is still on the skin. You know, the brand on the pig that they go... Oh, God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why am I upsetting you so much today? If you eat hairy crackling, are you chewing it around in your mouth and spitting all the hairs out?

1:23:30James Acaster: Yeah. Yeah. Making a little toupee out of it. Wearing it to the buffet.

1:23:38Phil, thank you so much for coming back to the Dream Restaurant. We hope you enjoyed your tasting menu. It's been so nice to return after all this time. So happy to see the restaurant doing so well. Thank you both for having me so much.

1:23:48James Acaster: Oh, and Phil, that will be£200.12. What? You've started charging? Yeah,£200, 12 pence please, Phil. For Jay's meal? Yeah, yeah. Cough up. What? Cash. Cash only. Cash only. Well. We are really trying to lead you to this callback. All you have to do is say that you're going to pay with exact money. Well, I have 200. But instead, you're such a thrifty bastard. You think you have to pay. You can't break out of the fantasy. You're like, what the? I wasn't told I had to pay. I've been looking at Ben desperately. Ben! This isn't fair! Tell him I'm gonna pay 200 pounds and 12 pence! Phil can't improv when even fake money's involved.

1:24:32He's really thinking about it.

1:24:33James Acaster: We should give him more detail to try and lead him to the callback. An exact change, Phil! Ben, please! Did you know Phil wanted to buy a wine fridge and it took him three years to make the decision? It wasn't three, it was two. It was two years. Was it? Yeah, it was about that one. Yeah. The B-boy. I got it eventually, yeah. and are you happy with it it's thrilled I should have got an agency there you go thank you so much Phil thanks guys

1:25:04thank you so much to Phil for coming back to the dream restaurant to have Jay Rayner's tasting menu

1:25:10James Acaster: how much he's grown over the years hasn't he just he loves he loves feeling like a god now that wasn't when he first came on never said he liked to feel like a god never said it he loves wine now loves wine knows all about wine He knows everything about wine. The fact that not only, when he relived that wine tasting menu that he put on for Christmas, not only did he know that for Christmas, but he recited it to us like word perfect. Yes. Here's the history of them all. Here's what order they were in. Here's where they're from. I was like, I don't think I know that much about anything anymore. Yeah.

1:25:40Oh, no, no, no. It's too late for me to start learning about stuff. Yeah. All I'm doing now is shedding knowledge that I've built.

1:25:47James Acaster: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just get rid of it. Maybe let something live in the head for a little bit. yeah but not useful stuff no no never useful stuff never anything useful yeah the new thing in the head of course is pouring tree over pig which you have a pet named pig do I have a pet named pig I don't want to pour a tree on that guy he doesn't go outside he'd be so shocked yeah he really hasn't met a tree no no and also I'm not putting maple syrup on that guy he's so hairy yeah yeah that would be a huge mistake yeah it would take years to get that out then you'd end up with a cat that looks like mine yeah but so fun to talk to Phil well that was a great episode it was lovely thank you so much Phil for coming on and Jay Rayner if you're listening I hope that you're happy yes with Phil's response I mean you've got to be happy yeah he says that he thinks about you when he ever eats an oyster he makes your cabbage at home he is a fan you know he was a little bit harsh on the eclair but you could take some criticism Jay yeah stop dishing it out if you can't take it mate don't dish it out if you can't take it mate wow and don't forget Phil is on tour with his brand new show uh oh Go to philwang.co.uk for tickets.

1:26:53It's going to be fantastic. We will see you again soon for either a traditional off-menu or another off-menu tasting menu. Or maybe we'll have a fourth idea.

1:27:02James Acaster: Uh-oh. Two years' time. Uh-oh, spaghettos. Bye-bye. Bye.