Best Actor Power Rankings with Richard Lawson, Plus Olivia Wilde on The Invite

0:00Katie, I know you have your suspicions about her ties to the German government, but calling Sandra Hewler a puppet is really, I think, beyond the pale. She's a puppet of the international consortium of governments in that movie. She sends him to space. He doesn't want to go. That's true. Yeah. Hi, everyone. I'm Katie Rich. This is the Prestige Junkie podcast. And today it's already at that point in Oscar season where we can dive in on specific categories. And to me, one of the most fun ones this year is Best Actor. So joining me as always is Christopher Rosen to dig into all of this. And joining me and Chris today, returning guest, friend of us all, author of the Premier Party newsletter, host of the Critical Darlies podcast, Richard Lawson.

0:39Hello. Welcome back. Hello. Thank you for having me. I know you love talking about actors and, you know, male actors specifically. It's just like a fun, rich topic. Never gets complicated. We're going to have so much to get into. Yeah. Yeah. I don't care at all about Best Actress. I mean, we'll have a Best Actress conversation at some point in the future. we promise we'll get into all of it um but for now focusing on lead actors and after we have that conversation i'll be sharing my conversation with olivia wilde the star and the director of the invite a summer hit that you might have heard of all that is coming up and more welcome to the show uh chris i i blew right past you in the intro because uh you know richard is a special guest you're you're here you're part of the establishment but i assume you're also excited to talk about best actor.

1:24Can't wait. I've been thinking about this for weeks. It's great. But Richard's the guest. We should focus on him. I'm just here. I like live in the riverside and then you just show up. It's true. It's true. We're just I mean, and this is the thing I mean, really, with all of us, like the amount of the talking about this on podcasts that we do, the 10 times more of it in like text threads in Toronto, sitting in the restaurant where you're supposed to be having a normal conversation. I mean, Richard, I think you get to be a little less award season brained than Chris and I do this time of year. But I feel like you must be fully in the thick of it right now, too.

1:53You know, I was like, oh, this year I don't really have to like focus too much on that because I'm kind of doing my own thing with the newsletter. And then somewhere during Toronto, I was like, oh no, I just want to write about that. So it's, you can't escape it. You also did write about the Willy Wonka reality show in your newsletter that came out today as we're recording. So you're doing a lot of different things. You have a wide range. I'm watching a lot more TV than I used to. I'll say that. And some of it good and some of it seemingly baffling, but undeniably compelling. And then won what really wonka competition show.

2:25Defies categorization beyond that. You convinced me to want to watch it, so there's something to that. So to structure our conversation, I had, I don't know, gamified it a slight bit. Gamifying is maybe overstating it. But I asked each of us to basically rank who we think is going to get nominated for Best Actor. One to ten. I suggested 15 at first, and then maybe that was a little excessive. Although I think I wound up with a list of like 18 people who I plausibly think could be nominated in the end. So I'm interested to see how many of them come up over the course of it. The hope is that, of course, we'll have different lists.

2:56And we're going to go from 10 to 1 and talk about how this Best Actor race is shaping up. We have Primetime just opened in theaters as this episode's coming out. And then Digger coming this weekend. So we're kind of in a Best Actor-heavy corridor. We're not going to spoil either of those movies. We haven't all seen them. But it's kind of the topic that's on my brain the most right now. Richard, as our guest, I don't know. Maybe this is an honor. or maybe this is too much pressure, would you like to start with who you put in 10th place in your ranking? I would. So over the years, the Academy, you know, they take chances and nominate performances or other aspects of movies that are pretty controversial.

3:33But like sometimes they want to go very mainstream. It's something that everyone agrees on is good. There's no problems with it. No, you know, no controversy online. And that's why my 10th place is Jafar Jackson for the movie Michael. normal movie normal performance no conversation to be had about that at all no it's just kind of a no-brainer well you know i i chris may get to talk about this as well but i think we were talking at some point and the question of who's going to win the golden globe in a comedy came up because we're going to talk about a lot of dramatic performances here and that alone might be the reason to keep jafar jackson in this conversation right that was kind of my thinking I mean, look, if it's at all possible to process that movie or that performance in a vacuum without all of the context the movie does not want you to think about, it's a good performance.

4:23Like, he really does mimic his uncle very exactingly and sings beautifully. And yeah, I mean, on those merits, it should be in that conversation. The problem is the rest of the movie is sort of, well, very controversial. Do you think it's a good performance outside of the performance scenes? That's what I'm a little stuck on. I mean, that's a good question. Maybe that's not as strong. But I think, again, in the sort of vacuum of just watching the movie for itself, I think in the dialogue scenes, it moved me at times. Like, you felt pity for this character. Yeah. Which is the weird part of that movie is that you feel pity for him as if he's not a human being who's ever made a choice in his life.

5:08So that's kind of the overwhelming feeling you feel about him. But it is it's captured really well. Yeah. And we can't deny that the movie made a gazillion dollars. And clearly there are many people who really like it. Yeah. Chris, without maybe spoiling it, this is going to come up later on your list. What do you think of this pick? I think it will come up later on my list. I love this pick, Richard. I completely agree. I think I think it's like in play for so many things. I was just looking at like BAFTA Best Actor. I think six times in nine years they've gone with a biopic winner, including last year for I Swear, which was like kind of out of nowhere.

5:41Right. I'm just like. Which is still Oscar eligible this year, technically. Certainly. I mean, like we're saying Golden Globes and like I've always said, like, this feels like a great Screen Actors Guild or Actor Award, whatever you want to call it, nominee coming up for this movie. But I'm like, what if he just gets in a BAFTA also? And I don't think he'll win. But like there are a million reasons why he like Jafar Jackson should be taken seriously beyond the fact that the movie isn't very good. So I'm just like, like, put him in there. I have him. Do you want me to spoil where I have it? No, no, no.

6:09We'll save the surprise for later. Well, and we're at the point of year. I think we're going to talk about a couple movies that feel really quiet right now because they came out earlier in the year. So Michael, no one's really thinking that much about Michael right now. But like, we're about to see Jafar Jackson going to events and shaking hands with people, right? Like, we assume that full court press is coming. I would. Yeah. Yeah. Posted an FYC event at Neverland Ranch. I can't. Wow. I can't. Couldn't be weird or. But we have to remember that music biopics are not always a given. Like the year of Rocketman, which is actually a pretty good movie.

6:41Really good movie. Taron Egerton didn't get anywhere close to that kind of conversation, it felt like. Because Bohemian Rhapsody came right before and stole all the thunder. It's tragic. And also Rocketman did not make nearly as much money as Michael did. But should have, I would say. Richard, I tell you that Joanna Robinson, our old Little Goldman co-host, and I were at an event. And there was a publicist who now works for HBO who was like, I listen to all of your Rocketman episodes. Thank you so much for supporting us. Wow. Because you've done that campaign. That's institutional memory right there, because that was a long time ago.

7:09I know. The legacy lives on of Rocketman. OK, Chris, I'll let you go next with your number 10 pick. My number 10 pick, I did not plan this because Olivia Wilde was on the show, but I have Seth Rogen at number 10. Wow. I thought he was fantastic in the movie. And while no one's really taking him seriously as a best actor contender, he's not going to win. But what if he's Michael B. Jordan, where it was like, oh, like we were thinking of Michael B. Jordan, maybe getting in like the movie was big and people like the movie, but weren't sure about him. And he just got in because everybody like he's good in the movie and people really love Michael B.

7:43Jordan. I think people really love Seth Rogen. He's an Emmy winner for the studio. I thought he's great in the invite. I think it's his best performance. And I think the movie is going to hang around a lot this year. And I definitely think the performances especially. So while I don't believe that he's probably in the top five, I think I put him at 10. That's my quick filibuster on Seth Rogen. Okay, so there's got 16 Oscar nominations, if I remember correctly. Are you predicting the invite for 16 Oscar nominations? I'm not predicting 16 nominations, but I think it's like going to do, I think it could get four acting nominations.

8:12I think it really could. Wow, okay. Like, I think because right now I'd already say like, he'd be the fourth, right? Because you'd have like Penelope Cruz, certainly, and Edward Norton, I think are pretty strong supporting contenders. and Olivia Wilde should be in Best Actress, which maybe we'll talk about in another episode. But I'm like, Seth Rogen is great. He's not any worse than them. And I actually thought he's like great. And I'm like, what if he gets in at SAG? Certainly Golden Globes. Maybe he's on the BAFTA long list. And then all of a sudden he ends up as an Oscar nominee. Stranger things have happened, but I don't know.

8:40I think he'd be a worthy 10. So that's where I have him. And by some measure, he was like close to getting supporting actor nomination for Steve Jobs. Oh, sure. I was thinking of the Fablemans, but you're totally right. So there might be a sort of overdue quality. I think the Cruz thing is interesting about the invite because she might cancel herself out with La Bola Negro. Yeah. The supporting actress is a really fascinating conversation for exactly that reason. When you said Cruz, I thought you meant Tom Cruz and flashback to the Vanilla Sky days of them dating each other. But let's go back to that.

9:10They're going to run into each other at so many events. When we are both cats. Remember, she says that. I'll tell you in another life when we are both cats. Actors on Actors. A future Actors on Actors episode. If they start doing X's and actors on actors, I would have I would have to give them all my respect. OK, well, so I was going to call you up for throwing a real flyer for Seth Rogen, Chris. But I went with a flyer for mine because I think we've talked about this so many times at this point in the year. Closing out possibilities is so pointless. You may as well talk about the people who you want people to at least be thinking about.

9:42And I think there's a line between saying it and then saying how realistic it is. But I'm in kind of this why not him spot with Ian McKellen in The Christophers. That performance is so great. He is an icon even more than Seth Rogen, with all due respect to Seth Rogen. I also watched Fellowship of the Ring with my family this week. And, you know, who's really amazing in Fellowship of the Ring is Ian McKellen. Didn't win that Oscar then. We're going to talk about Andrew Scott later, I'm sure. But Ian McKellen, you know, has been in this position of potentially being the first openly gay actor to win.

10:13He hasn't yet. But I think it would be a really well-earned nomination. He's obviously getting up there in years. I don't know what the campaign apparatus could be for The Christophers. It's a neon film. It came out in the spring. It didn't make a huge splash. I don't even know if anyone's going to campaign for it, but I would like to. So that's why I want to throw Ian McKellen on my list to start. I believe to date that Ian McKellen is the only openly gay actor to be nominated. Well, today I went on the Wikipedia page for LGBTQ actors at the Oscars, and it is a wild ride. I will send it to you.

10:43I honestly read through all of it. I still can't remember where it lands out because whether you are openly gay, I think, is a tough question to answer. But he's certainly in a small class. There are a couple of people recently, I won't name names, who are like, they're kind of out. Like in L.A., they're out. Right. You know, like, yeah. Yeah, that's part. I mean, you start getting into like when they put Marlon Brando on there and explain their reasoning for it, the Wikipedia pages. God bless the people who are keeping that thing up to date. Well, it's like Ian Charlson was going to gay bars in London.

11:09Yeah. But he wasn't technically. Anyway. Yeah. Getting out of myself. It's a complicated thing. So yet another reason to celebrate Ian McKellen for how straightforward he has been throughout his life and giving great performances. Chris, are you a fan of the Christopher's? I can't remember if we've talked about it. I actually haven't watched it yet. Oh, man. You got to get there. I love the swing. I think this is a great pick. Richard, have you seen it? Yeah. It's good. He's great in it. But also, Christopher, like, it's about you. I know. It's about multiple you. I know. It's your multiple you.

11:36I got to see it. I'll see it. I'll watch it. It's all right there. Okay, Richard, we're back to you for your ninth place pick. Okay, this is for something I have not seen. Okay. But when I was in Toronto, I spoke to more than three people, let's say four or five people who had seen this movie already. And to my somewhat surprise said it was really good. So I have listed Pedro Pascal for Behemoth, which will premiere at New York Film Festival in a week or two. I don't think any of us have seen it yet. So we're sitting around waiting for this one. The word I got from people who'd seen it early was like, it's really good.

12:07I mean I said is it Oscar-y and they said who knows because what does that really mean these days fair question I mean I think the Pedro Pascal question is so interesting too because he obviously had like kind of a flop this year with Mandalorian and Grogu it's kind of felt like he's been on the verge of happening as a movie star for a really long time did he win an Emmy for The Last of Us Chris this seems like the kind of thing you remember maybe I have to look this up I don't believe he did he's been in that mix a lot of different times and there's really no better way to get into the Oscar fold by playing like a tormented genius artist living in Los Angeles.

12:39It feels like a solid path. But I've been back and forth on, I mean, you have him here at nine. I kind of have been back and forth on where I think he's going to land in this. Where are you on Behemoth right now, Chris? And also, Chris, did he win any Emmys? He did not win any Emmys. He was a two-time nominee. I'm like, I want it to be great because I love Tony Gilroy and like the idea of this movie, I don't have him on my list as a spoiler, but I think it's great. I would love for him to make it on the list. I feel like the only reason I don't have them is just because I haven't seen it, basically.

13:09But I have one coming up that I maybe should—I also haven't seen, so who knows if that's a great metric. But, you know, why not, Pedro Pascal? I do wonder if on set, Gilroy and Pascal talked about their respective Star Wars shows. And Gilroy had to be like, yeah, I mean, yours is good. Mine is maybe a little better, but I haven't seen that one. I haven't seen it. I'll have to catch it. Sounds interesting, though. that's me betraying my bias that I think Andor is like one of the best TV shows perhaps ever made. I mean, that's why so many of us have just been holding the space for Behemoth for months and months and months.

13:40Are you guys both going to the New York Film Festival premiere? What's your like hype plan for that one? Yeah, I'll probably go to the press screening in the morning just to get it out of the way. But the thing I'm most excited about is all of these different movie scores for fake movies that they got all these different composers to do. So I'm not really, to be honest, that invested in the Patriot Pascal at all. A little burned by Gladiator 2 and Materialists and Eddington even. But like... He's so good in Eddington. I don't love that movie. He's really... Yeah. Yeah, I learned recently they're crediting all those composers.

14:14There's like nine composers who worked on Behemoth and they're being credited as the Behemoth Collective. And I don't know if they're allowed to get nominated for an Oscar. I don't know how that works because the rules can be so different. But they're going to give it a shot, which I think is super intriguing. It's definitely not in the rules, but I think what if they just made their own rules. There's nothing in the rulebook that says they can't all compete together. Yeah, who knows? That also Scotch's plans to rebrand all the Godzilla and King Kong movies as the Behemoth Collective. Well, they're going to be the new Dark Universe.

14:41They've got names for it out there. Okay, Chris, your number nine pick. My number nine is similarly a movie I haven't seen. I have really only talked to maybe one person who has seen, and I have high hopes for it, and it's also a New York Film Festival as Artificial, so I have Andrew Garfield at number nine. I'll just spoil it and say I also have Andrew Garfield at number nine. Oh, wow. Nice. I mean, I'm like, wait, if this is good, like, why not? I feel like I was I was ready to give Andrew Garfield a nomination for We Live in Time. Is that what it was called? Florence Pugh? Because I was like, I did not know you were a We Live in Time defender.

15:12under. I mean, that movie's fine. After Tick, Tick, Boom, when he really should have won an Oscar and maybe in hindsight, they all wish that he would have won an Oscar. I feel like he's ready to get another nomination and be like a serious contender playing a real life person, obviously, and Sam Altman, maybe playing him as a complete total monster, which seemingly based on like the trailer he is. I'm like, let's go. This feels like a very timely movie to, I like Andrew Garfield. So like, why not? But I haven't seen it and I don't really know anybody who has. So I have him at nine, but I think he could really vault up the list once people see it.

15:42It'd be nice because the uprising did not go well for him. When does that come out, the uprising? I don't know. Next year? Next year? Cool. No, I also saw the uprising and I interviewed Andrew Garfield for this very podcast about the uprising and we spent some time talking about AI. You could kind of like sense preparing for the next thing. But I mean, Rich, I don't think I've talked to you about that artificial trailer. Chris and I have talked about it. I feel like a lot of us had it as a real question mark. Luca Guadagnino, you never know what you're going to get from him. But I thought that trailer was pretty good.

16:11Yeah, I'm very encouraged by the fact that Amazon allegedly seems to have found it too anti-AI and anti-Sam Altman. I'm like, good. Burn it all down. So, you know, After the Hunt obviously did not work out for Garfield and Luca together last year. So I'm hoping this is the one that works. I watched half of After the Hunt on a plane and never finished it. Like, does he have anything to do over the course of that movie? Yeah, he has a couple of really good scenes. He's definitely, to me, he was the best part. I didn't think the rest worked. I don't know, Richard, do you like it more than I did here?

16:47What do you think? I don't know. That movie is weird. It's hard to quantify what that movie is or is doing. I'm really excited for Artificial. Again, it's a New York Film Festival thing that I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to get to see. So I hope you guys get to go to some real buzzy. The premieres of both that and Behemoth. New York Film Festival isn't like a standing ovation-y kind of place, like Diff is somehow becoming. But I think there could be some good energy in the room for both. And I'm really curious about that Tom McCarthy movie that's also a world premiere. Yeah, which I have been, I mean, this is a sidebar.

17:17I think it's not opening until next year based on the one press release. But I feel like that could change at any moment. It was at the Sony Pictures Classics dinner. It was. Tom McCarthy was there. I don't know if you talked to him there, Richard. he kind of had this look in his face being like, yeah, no one's seen my movie. I'm here. Okay. Yeah, I talked to him for a little bit once I, you know, said all I had to say to Lewis Pullman. Well, you're never going to run out of things to say to Lewis Pullman. No, Tom McCarthy is a delight and I think everyone will be very excited for his movie too.

17:45Okay, so I said I had Andrew Garfield in my number nine spot and basically the same reasons as Chris. So it's back to you, Richard, for number eight. You know, over the years the Academy has loved impersonations, which, and it was a hit in Toronto, so I have Anthony Ippolito for I Play Rocky, in which he plays Talia Shire. Right? Did I watch the movie correctly? Does someone play Talia Shire in the movie? Is there an interesting casting at all? No? She's good. She looks like Talia Shire. Great. I have not seen I Play Rocky, but you guys have, so does he have what it takes? Yeah, I mean, the movie is not going deep on Stallone as a person, you know?

18:25His only flaw in the movie is that he's like too ambitious, but then he's handsomely rewarded for that ambition at the end. So there's not a ton of depth to play, but what he does is good. And he makes this version of Stallone very sympathetic and charming. And yeah, so it's a good performance. He's a, you know, no one really knows who this guy is other than that he also played Al Pacino in another thing about the making of an iconic 70s movie. But, you know, there could be that sort of new factor That tends to be more on the actor's side, but I don't know. People love the movie and the Academy is full of boomers who love Rocky.

19:02True. Well, as Chris knows, I've been kind of obsessed about the parallels between this Oscar race in 2015, which we may do a whole podcast episode about. But I had kind of forgotten that 2015 was the year of Creed and where we had Sylvester Stallone like maybe getting in there in the Oscar race. So it is just appropriate that I play Rocky as part of that, too. Yeah. Chris, you've seen it. How bullish are you on Anthony Napolito? I'm less bullish than Richard here. I did not put him on my list. I loved him in the movie. I went with Jafar Jackson as like the pantomime, like kind of, you know, wax figure performance, basically.

19:33I liked Anthony Ippolito more in Rocky. Like Richard's saying, I think he's very charming and he definitely is good. I just was like, I don't know. I feel like the music biopics are better than like biopic biopics. I just was like, I don't believe. He's great. I like I loved him in the movie, frankly, but like, I don't know. So maybe he's in that 11 to 15 range for me, but we'll see. And going back to 2015, Katie, one of the theories as to why Mark Rylance won that Oscar in a kind of a squeaker at the end was that Stallone has something of a difficult reputation in Hollywood. So will the Academy want to reward an actor who's playing that guy who they refuse to give an Oscar to?

20:14Although they do, I think Stallone doesn't really have anything to do with the movie, although it doesn't sound like that's because the movie is critical of him in any way. So who knows how that might shake out. Wait, Richard, where are you on? If it's Jafar Jackson versus Anthony Ippolito as, you know, invitations of famous people, which one do you land for? I mean, just because it's less controversial, I would favor Ippolito. Yeah. Fair enough. Okay, so I'll get to my eighth spot. And I'm guessing I'm going to be the lowest ranking of Tom Cruise on this list, unless you guys have left him off.

20:44I don't have him on my list at all. Wow. Okay, I get him higher. Richard, you and I are the ones who have not seen Digger. So I have not much information to put this on. I mean, I don't think of this as a diss. There's just a lot of other people to put in the mix here. You know, the social reactions to Digger are out there. You can just see so many people kind of like scraping to find ways to talk about how interesting this movie is. While the subtext to me is I hated it. I hated it. I don't know. I think there are some people coming out who loved it. I think there may be some older voters who are older Oscar writers who may be in tune with the older voters who may be on board with this movie.

21:20I mean, Chris, I'm really kind of making this all up as we go along. Should I be more bullish on Tom Cruise at this point? Maybe. So I've seen it. And I could say I've seen it and give my social reaction, I guess, not an actual review. And I'll just say when I left the movie, I was like, well, cross them off. And then when I saw the responses from everybody else, I was like, actually, now much more bullish on it. I think there are certain things about the movie and the performance. It's definitely gonna be a polarizing movie. No kidding. And you're right to say like a lot of the reviews, like a lot of the non-review tweets were like, great gowns, beautiful gowns, or like, you know, like, oh, it's really big swing if you like.

21:57Or like the production design is amazing. Wow. Love that cinematography. So good at Chivo back, you know, all stuff like that. So like, okay, like you kind of definitely read between the lines on that. And then also maybe cross-reference those lines with who got their photos taken with Tom Cruise at like the big Warner Brothers event when they unveiled the trailer and like kind of like get the Charlie Day board going to conspiracy theory. Is your map on your wall yet? Yeah, I mean it's over here. You can't see it. But yeah, no. But that said, like I think there's a lot of reasons actually why I've become more bullish on him even in the last few days just because I think there's a thing about the performance that will be unveiled as you see the movie that I think will engender it.

22:35And I also think the movie is... Yeah, I still don't know what that twist is. I'm not going to spoil it. I wonder if I can make it. I don't know if you know it yet, Richard, but I wonder if it can make it all the way. It was spoiled for me, yeah. Ah, damn it. Okay, well, don't say anything. I mean, I wanted it to be. I'm living in ignorance for now. Blissful ignorance. There's parts of it. I just think that, like, the idea of the movie, I think, will speak to Richard's point. I think there, it will be boomers, older boomers will really respond to it, especially, like, more politically progressive boomers, if that's even actually a thing.

23:02But, like, their idea of progressivism, I think, will be reflected in this a little bit. And I don't know. I just was like, I think there's going to he's going to get a lot of credit for really doing this. And even people who didn't like the movie are like, Tom is really good in it. And all that put together, I was like, what if he gets like enough number one votes to get in? And like, I can't take credit for this. It's the great Chris File who said this on our text chain, Katie. But he compared it to Ana de Armas in blonde. And I was like, that's actually the craziest, greatest thing I've ever heard.

23:32Speaking of exes, they used to date, too. It's got a lot of tips. And it was a different role, obviously, and she's playing Marilyn Monroe. And there was like, obviously, like a lot of reason for that. But that was a movie that people really hated. And she still got in. And I'm like, I could see this for Tom Cruise. So I have him higher. I don't have him like winning or anything, but I have him higher. And I think he can get in. And Richard, you took him out of your 10 entirely. Yeah, he has the honorary Oscar, right? Just got it. He has been rewarded by the Academy. I have a feeling Digger is not going to be a success financially.

24:04And I think that will put sort of a stink on it. And when you have so many other actors vying for just five slots, I think that they'll kind of just pass it by. I mean, this is out over my skis because I don't know about the business side of it. But Digger's a Warner Brothers release. it's now in the middle of this merger that everybody hates. Like no one is blaming Digger for the merger or really even anybody who greenlights movies at Warner Brothers. But I wonder if that adds to the sense of being like, let's please walk away from this. Like we don't want to engage with this at all. The one thing I would say too, beyond that, is what Inyoritu is maybe, are we underrating Inyoritu as an acting nominee magnet?

24:43Because I was looking back at his movies, right? 21 Grams at least got two nominations, right? Or did it get all three of them in? right? Naomi Watts, Benicio and Sean Penn. Yeah. Obviously Birdman got three, right? Michael Keaton, Emma Stone and Edward Norton. And then even Revenant got two because Tom Hardy got in right with with Leo. And Bardo won six. That was a big Oscar winner. Right. So that's great. But other than Bardo, like he's like they like the performances. They like what he's doing, I think, with actors. Now, it's been a long time because he hasn't even made a real theatrical movie in 11 years outside of Bardo, which doesn't count.

25:18Wow. Yeah, Bardo is Netflix. I'm like, I don't know. They kind of like his big, broad performances. And if you like broad performances, you'll love Digger. Or he's sort of David O. Russell, where he had his era. True. It passed. True. Hey, David O. Russell has a movie coming out this year. We're going to talk about Madden later. I got Nicolas Cage number one. Is that a spoiler? Is that movie getting theatrically released? I actually don't know. I don't think it is. Man, the David O. Russell era, really. That's the thing that Gen Z looks at us. They're just like, what did you guys do? We're like, I don't know.

25:46It was a time. You had to be there for American Hustle, I guess. Okay, that was my pick. So I think we're back to Richard now at number seven. Yeah, my number seven is for a performance that looked way more in the mix back at Cannes in May. And after its kind of surprisingly negative reception in Toronto, I've put him down a bit, but I still have Sebastian Stan on my list for Fjord. The movie went over terribly in Toronto. I have a number seven also. I never got the sense it was going over terribly. I just I sense more of a shrug from people. But did you hear from people who like really hated it?

26:24People like hated it. Wow. And we're like, it's a deeply conservative, like right wing movie and fuck that movie, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I feel like that read is so missing the point of what this movie is. I don't know that that's how the Academy will react to it. You know, the trailer that I just saw the trailer for the first time before I saw The Uprising. And the trailer is good. It makes it look like way more of a thriller than it is. but it's compelling and I was like oh right like Stan is doing a lot in that movie he's doing an accent like he's speaking in multiple languages et cetera et cetera that like there is enough there even though it's a pretty quiet movie overall do you feel like I mean we'll get into the politics a few words later but do you feel like that's even a fair read to call it like a conservative reactionary movie like when you anything that Christian Manjou says about it is like so deliberately trying to be more nuanced than that I feel like that's kind of unfair I think it's a movie that refuses to announce its politics you know and we are pretty inured at this point to movies that are really like up front about what they're trying to argue and in this he's like I'm not, depiction is not endorsement.

27:26I'm not saying I agree with either of these sides blah blah blah and people I think are aware of that but are still like yeah but the way the movie is sort of tilted it clearly favors one side over the other. I don't know if I fully agree with that but I see their point maybe. And Chris you're exactly in the same spot for Sebastian Stan? I am. I had him number seven. I had Jafar Jackson eight and then Sebastian 7. The reason I also thought Sebastian Stan would be good here is he's speaking different languages. He's almost unrecognizable with his like shaved head, which I mean is silly, but like he definitely does.

27:56And all these other performances are not, they're pretty like big, like movie star performances, even Cruz under his makeup. It's still like, you know, he's doing like finger guns and stuff. And like Sebastian Stan is like maybe the only transformational actor here. So I do think he's got like a little bit of a lane to himself where he's in this like cold, restrained movie. or he's doing something different than people have seen him doing. That could be a negative, too, in terms of, like, getting a lot of support. But I do think it's still considered, I think he'd be, I think he'd be a good consideration here in, like, the bottom tier of this top 10.

28:31So I haven't been seven. I just keep wondering if Fjord is done for. Like, I know it has the Palm. It's, you know, automatically qualifies for international feature. It's going, has Neon behind it. They have done so well with Palm Winners. but it is not a movie that's inspiring a lot of passion. In its defense, it's more people hating it. And there's a lot of really fascinating international films out there this year. Lobo Negra, obviously, is going to get a lot of attention there. Like, I just wonder what the lane is for Fjord, period. And at Cannes, it was viewed as a sort of like, like I was at the simulcast of the award show with like all the press and the other theater during, you know, and when they announced that, like they were like booze.

29:06I don't think that they hated the movie. It was just kind of a boring choice. Like Manju had already won before. There were other bigger, splashier, more interesting movies that were like Bola Negra were in the running. So it just didn't really have any heat even from Cannes despite winning. And I also think that, you know, all of us who pay attention to this stuff like would be wise to remember that this whole palm door to best picture, you know, conduit did not used to be a thing just a few years ago. It's like five years old. This is brand new. So it's not going to happen every year. Do you think that the idea that you were saying, Richard, about like being a conservative coded movie, does it is it does it end up being like the free press of the Oscar race where it's like, well, oh, like the rich, like the richer people are going to be like, this is, you know, the woke has gone too far and we're going to embrace this movie to like do like because we think so.

29:58I don't know. I think if like the real right wing somehow got a hold of the movie, they would like it. The problem is. They made it through the whole thing, which I have a really hard time imagining. The pushback against woke leftism in the movie is coming from deep religious conservatives who kind of want to be able to abuse their children. And so that's hard for even like a Hollywood conservative to rally around, I think. Got it. I had him in my like 10 through 15 for what I said about Fjord. I mean, I know he got nominated for The Apprentice, a movie that really seemed radioactive until I got two Oscar nominations.

30:33but I feel like that was a weaker best actor field. And this one, as we're going to discuss, has a lot to get into. So, okay, my number seven spot, this is where I put another performance I have not seen, which is Robert Pattinson in primetime. I know that movie's about to come out. It's getting a wide release, which feels pretty bold for a movie that I'm not sure how extensive the appeal is. And, you know, what I'm hearing about it is people admire it as a big swing, maybe a little more effusively than they mean for Digger. But Pattinson obviously is having such a huge year. I think if you get into supporting actor, you really have to talk about him for The Odyssey.

31:08But I kind of wonder if at some point we solidify one of them and if it becomes primetime. But then again, I have him here at number seven. So maybe that's not a wise move for him. Richard, you have seen primetime. You were at Venice. I don't know if you have him on your list, but is this a reasonable spot to put him, do you think? I have him at six. All right, perfect. I think he's just shy of in that top five. Yeah, I mean, the thing with Pattinson, is that Hollywood and really just like culture in general is so disdainful of stuff that young women like that he still has Twilight stink on him, if you want to call it stink.

31:43I mean, he's fun in those movies, whatever. But it's taken him a lot of time to kind of get out of that, which is totally unfair and ridiculous and whatever. Chris and Stuart literally had to play Princess Diana to get out of there. Is he there yet? Maybe. I think the thing, it's a good performance in primetime. the movie might be a little too arty and alienating for Academy people to really support. But I think he's close. I think it's unfortunate that at Venice, he was a bit crowded out by like all the Wild Horse Nine talk and Malkovich talk. It didn't really feel like at that festival, it had its own little moment to shine.

32:22And he'll be in production on the Batman for God knows how long, which is a big factor with campaigning. Well, his coming to Venice was sort of not... that movie was maybe not going to go because he was, but they were like, oh, well, it's he's shooting in London. He can just fly down quick, you know, whatever. But yeah, for the campaign stuff, I, yeah, he's not going to be able to do much, I don't think. Yeah. Chris, you're going to see Primetime. We will have seen it. I will have seen it by the time. I will have seen it too. Okay. After when this airs. So future me is going to be like, man, I should have him in my top 10, but I didn't have him in.

32:52The movie, I think, has been not as widely embraced. Again, I haven't seen it, but like, it's like a little bit polarizing and he's seemingly not playing a character who you're going to be rooting for, I would imagine, in his portrayal of Chris Hansen. So I was just like, maybe that's a tough sell. We can do villains in this actor. Daniel Plainview is right there. I don't know. I feel like it's maybe a little bit of a tough sell. Do you think that he can get in for the Odyssey then? Like, can we get Pattinson a nomination finally in one way or another? I don't think he's going to get in this year.

33:20I think of all the people we've been talking about of like getting double nominations, like Sandra Hula and Penelope Cruz. and like I think he's like the third of those three who would get to a nomination or get an even Anne Hathaway like getting a nomination for their big year like I just think he's I think Richard's dead on I think he's like not taking he's still not taken as seriously I don't know what it would take to get him to be taken seriously I also think he's like the thing that makes him so fun as an actor is that he just takes a lot of risks and chances and he's doing a voice or he's doing a thing and like they don't take him as seriously as if he was like serious actor face kind of doing like that.

33:55Just wait until he gets nominated for Dune 3. I would love it. I would love it. But like, I don't know. I just don't have the hopes. Well then, so we're at your number six, I think. So who do you have at number six? Your last one before we get to the actual list. I have Ryan Gosling at number six for Project Hail Mary, who I think is just short because I think he's more Margot Robbie in Barbie than he is Michael B. Jordan in Sinners. I think he's just like the movie. People love the movie. and I think the movie is going to get in and he is the movie. And I just think it's like, again, comic performance, maybe not taken as seriously.

34:30And I don't know how much campaign he's going to do. It also doesn't feel as different as anything he's done, right? Like it kind of feels like a continuation of like the goofy stuff he was doing in Barbie or Fall Guy or whatever. And even though he's great in the movie and has some serious stuff. I don't know what that is. Maybe he saw the trailer. I don't know. I would love, I love Ryan Gosling. I think he should maybe, he would be like in my top three if it was my voting. But I think he's just short. And I think so. I have him at six. I'm definitely haunted by Margot Robbie and Barbie. And I kind of wonder if that's not the cautionary tale.

35:00I don't think most voters actually think about that. But I wonder if that's more the exception than the rule. If you are the leader of a big movie like this, like not to win, but even just to get nominated for a movie that I think Project Hail Mary is going to again, it's a movie we're not talking about that much right now. I think it's going to come back big time. I think Ryan Gosling is going to be very much on the brain of people when they're voting for this movie and for him, too. I hope so. I hope I'm wrong. I want him to get in. Richard where are you on Gosling he's going to come up later on my list yeah same okay all right well then we'll get to him there are we oh I didn't do my six yet okay so in my sixth place just before the cutoff is this is where I put Pedro Pascal side on scene I do think the TV actor question is a real one like the line between TV actors and movie actors is obviously a lot thinner than it used to be but going from being a true star on television to a true movie star it still doesn't happen that much like that's different from Meryl Streep making big little lies you know and I don't I'm trying to even think of like what a reason Sebastian Stan being on Gossip Girl I'm not counting I don't know what you want your comp to be but I do wonder if that's going to it's going to hold him back in a tiny way with this yeah I do think it feels like we like even though a lot of those movies and those performances maybe didn't work like Richard Doerr thing like Materialist or Fantastic Four or Eddington which I do think he was okay and people seemingly are wanting they want that Pedro Pascal moment.

36:21Right. Do you feel like at least I think they do. And like maybe this is if the movie is good and he's good, like there's no reason why he shouldn't get like seriously considered. So six, I think, is good. Yeah. OK, so I'll take a break before we get into our fives. And just we mentioned LaBelle and Negra earlier. We're all they haven't announced the category placements for it yet, but we're all operating, assuming those are all supporting roles. So don't get mad at us for not mentioning that. I think that's the only thing that's like truly maybe ineligible of what we might consider. We'll talk at the end about anything we didn't discuss.

36:50So with that in mind, Richard, who is in your fifth slot? Who's just making the cut? So this is my biggest like flyer, I guess, on the list. At the Sony Pictures Classics dinner, I had a nice conversation with Noah Segan. And just thinking about that movie, the only living pickpocket in New York, I was like, Turturro has never been nominated before. He's so beloved. he's been in you know so many great directors films like i just and the movie is such a throwback it'll appeal to older voters so i have to turn for pickpocket that is precisely where i have to turn on my list yeah and i feel like it's like the the um bill nighy in living nomination or even hawk in blue moon yeah exactly well it's the sony classics part of it is so big and chris i know you and i have talked about this they are really really good at targeting these campaigns for people who are in something small but are really good at working in a room to turn wasn't at that sony classic center which i kind of thought he would i mean what i'm sure he has his reasons um but i was kind of waiting to see him but then my wallet was missing well that well actually literally put only living pickpocket wallets in mine and chris's pockets at a different party in tiff so he really he is working that room but i do think he has to learn what a pickpocket is you don't give people wallets you take the wallets i was like okay yeah pockets yeah um no and as we're going to talk about who else is making up our four.

38:11Like we have a lot of big movies and big performances and like these meaty movie stars. And I just think there's always room like there was for Ethan Hawke last year or Vagnamora, kind of another version of that of saying like, I just like this guy. I've liked him for a long time. This movie, it's such a good showcase for him. I think it makes perfect sense. Yeah, it's an entertaining movie. It's got pathos to it. It's not just kind of a light caper. He's got a great coat. Oh God. It makes you want to like throw away your cell phone and listen to records and only wear like classic clothing for the rest of your life.

38:43I asked Noah Segan about the coat and he was like, well, it's funny. It kind of started where like we went to a Xenia like show, like a show in Milan. And then the designer was like, Mr. Tortoro, you have to walk. And because he has this little lanky tall body, like he was he was a natural runway model. And that sort of started this coat journey. And it's like, tell that story out on the campaign trail. Like, yeah, there's just a lot working for it in a small way. And I think as an alternate to some of the bigger stuff we'll talk about, like, I just I like his odds right now. Yeah. Chris, I think you agree on all this, right?

39:15A hundred percent. I would also say, I don't know if I don't want to spoil this because I don't know, the person's not accredited in the movie. But there's an actor in the movie who he shares a scene with towards the end that is a incredible Oscar campaigner and cheerleader for their movies. And I think that will also help him do this. So I just I'm like a way in on John Turturro. Between that and Colleen Camp being in Club Kid, which I'm guessing we're not going to talk about here, but maybe we can talk about why. Just the Oscar campaigners. Francis Fisher, where are you? I was going to say, don't get excited.

39:45It's not Francis Fisher in the movie. God, that would be amazing, though. Okay, we all agree on number five. That's incredible. Let's manifest that. So, Richard, who do you have in fourth place? I'm contrary to Chris's skepticism. I have Ryan Gosling. Okay, good. I also have Ryan Gosling in fourth place. I'm excited for this. This is good. Okay. I think he's beloved. that movie has maybe been a little bit put on the shelf and then like Odyssey came along and sort of dominated the blockbuster narrative. But I think that movie will come back. People remember how charming he is. He will probably campaign, I think, to some extent.

40:18I think he kind of wants it right now. He's decided to focus on a particular kind of film going forward, he said, and stuff his kids can watch. Which is the Star Wars movie and the Ghost Rager movie. I think he's liking to being a gregarious movie star because his last movie star era, he was like, what if I do movies where I have two lines in the whole movie and I just sort of brood? And now it's like, no, people like you when you talk and are light and funny. And Hail Mary is the sort of apex of that right now. To me, it is such a great movie star performance. Again, so much like Matt Damon in The Martian to talk about 2015 again, where you just put this person in the center of the screen and say like, you know, he's doing a lot.

40:57He's interacting with a puppet. There's like technical challenges to it, but it's just a lot of charisma. Like it's you looking at him and saying, Like, I want to be with this guy on this ship alone. And that's something that you can't copy. It's something that you just kind of have to bring. And I was thinking about Michael B. Jordan winning for Sinners, and that's a twin performance, and it's complicated things. But there was a lot of charisma in that, too. And I love it when we reward our movie stars for performances like that. And that's what that Project Hail Mary is so driven by. Katie, I know you have your suspicions about her ties to the German government, but calling Sandra Hewler a puppet is really, I think, beyond the pale.

41:30I think you should apologize. of the international consortium of governments in that movie. She sends him to space. He doesn't want to go. That's true. Yeah. I mean, Chris, I feel like you're going to flip flop on Ryan Gosling. I love that. I love I mean, I love it's like I still think I mean, this is kind of corny and like maybe incredibly basic, but I still think outside of like the Nathan Fielder doc, it's like the best thing I've seen this year. Like, even though having seen everything else, it's so entertaining. And like, it's all like he it's in five seconds of the movie. His like first thing is like him waking up and pulling the thing out of his mouth.

42:02Right. And just being like, no, it's just very good. He's so fun in it. And it is a real movie star performance. And he does get to do some serious stuff in it, too. And like dramatic stuff that he nails. There's a lot of crying in Project Hail Mary. You don't always forget about it. I mean, like, it is crazy. Like, he's so good that like he does make you believe that Rocky is like I really do think like great James Ortiz, great vocal performance and like doing the puppeting. Sure. But if like Ryan Gosling was not doing what he's doing in the movie, you would never believe this shit. I don't believe you know what I mean like he really makes you believe the puppet is real just wait till our supporting actor episode why does it go off about James Ortiz I mean James Ortiz should win but yes I do think a lot of this is Ryan take that Robert Pattinson yeah no I love him in the movie so I will probably flip flop but for now who do you have in your fourth place I have Tom Cruise number four I put him in fourth because I just was like I just think like when they it's a if you put enough number ones like I was saying before I think people I think the people who like the movie will like really love it and I think the academy is primed to like it i think this is like the academy forget david or russell even but like the academy that like don't look up is gonna be like what about digger i think i don't know and it's not that long ago that we were like embracing don't look up with the academy so much has happened since then so much we're different people now are we though i mean you could also argue it's like like they love the yorgos movies and this is not far afield from i think what the worst instincts of the Yorgos movies are sometimes.

43:27Wow. Okay. I'm so intrigued by this. Can't wait for you guys to see it. It's going to be great. I suspect we have the same three people in our top three, but possibly in different orders. And I'm going to say, I feel great about my top five. I'm taking it to the bank, although I would also be willing to change it. But the order of these next three, I go back and forth on all the time. So Richard, you started us off. Who do you have in third place? Well, as a Boston native, I will say the pride of Cambridge, Massachusetts. He is not from the city of Boston. Matt Damon. I thought you were going to say Andrew Scott.

43:55Weird. Oh, yeah. Matt Damon was in, you know, it's a small movie. It's like a little indie, but he's good in it. And, you know, if they can get the movie in front of enough voters, I think Damon will be in. I'll get to Matt Damon on my list. But I do think he is a fascinating question, again, about the movie star thing I was talking about with Ryan Gosling of like Matt Damon doing. I think he's the only person who could have done that role as well as he did. Like the Odyssey is the sum of a lot of parts, but Matt Damon is so crucial to what makes it work so well. He brings an everyday kind ofness to it, like the sort of everyman quality.

44:31And for a lot of the movie, you're like, OK, like he's reacting to these crazy things that are happening and, you know, there's something there. But then in the monologue at the end of the movie, which sort of lays out the thesis of the film, that's when he really you're like, oh, right. This is like a great actor we're dealing with. And, you know, he's had such a weird history with the Academy. And but I just yeah, I can't see them not nominating him. And but the reason I have him third is that maybe the performance isn't quite showy enough. But he does. He does tie himself to that mast. Listen to those sirens.

45:07I've seen 800 versions on the Internet. Chris, who did you put in your number three? My number three. I went with John Malkovich. I put Malkovich here also. I just I think he's fantastic in the movie. He's it's great. And it's also a singular performance. Like, I don't think anybody like you could argue in almost all of these, like, you know, you could imagine other actors being in The Odyssey or being in Elsinore or whatever. But I feel like only John Malkovich could do Wild Horse Nine the way he did Wild Horse Nine. I just think it's like such his line readings are completely deranged. I don't know how he's doing them and like why he's doing and why he's doing it in certain ways.

45:43I just think it's like a really great performance. But I've been burned. I think the Martin McDonough thing, obviously he's won Oscars with like Francis McDormand and Sam Rockwell. But I go back to like Banshees of Minashera. And I just think it's like it's great to be nominated and he'll probably finish in third place. He didn't get beaten by some weird showy performance. No, he won an Oscar for Banshees of Minashera. No, there wasn't something weird that got in the way of Colin Farrell. I have no memory. It was Brandon Fraser for The Whale. Richard, you don't remember a movie that got you in trouble around that time, do you?

46:08No, The Whale, that's not a movie, Chris. That's never came out. It didn't come out. It's coming out with Uprising. Let's not forget that Martin McDonough has his own Oscar for a short. He does. He sure does. I love John Malkovich. I just think he'll end up in third because I think it's not as showy as Andrew Scott and I think we'll talk about Matthew. I feel very differently about Malkovich. I'm loving this, please. I think that We Are Sleeping on Wild Horse 9 is like a 10 nomination contender. Like that movie is, I really loved it. I think it, I don't know a lot of detractors to it. It's certainly much better than Three Billboards.

46:37Like I would need to watch Banshees again to see where they stack up together. It's not quite as sweet as Banshees, but then in the end it kind of is. And so much of that rests on Malkovich. And for a while, I was kind of like, oh, this is really a two-hander with him and Sam Rockwell. And then Malkovich just kind of goes off to the races at the end of that movie. And I was really moved by it, by the end of it. And, I mean, Richard, you saw it in Venice, right? So you were kind of there for the beginning of the Malkovich Volpe Cup hype. Yeah, it was just, I wasn't, when they announced the awards, I was like, well, right.

47:09It just, everything about it felt inevitable. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so we're on two now? Yeah. Okay, I lost track. Okay, so Richard, who do you have in second place? So I have Malkovich in two. Okay. But I almost put him at one because I entered the fall season having talked to people who saw Elsinore and everyone's like, well, Andrew Scott's winning. There's no competition, blah, blah, blah. And then Wild Horse Nine came along and Elsinore was not at Venice, so it didn't have to compete with that. But I talked to a lot of publicists, awards-specific publicists in Toronto. And almost every single one of them was like, and so Malkovich is going to win, right?

47:46And I was like, wait, where are you getting that? Because I had been hearing Scott this whole time. And enough people said it that I was like, is there another conversation happening that I just haven't overheard about Malkovich being the obvious choice because it's a legacy win. He hasn't been nominated for 33 years. He didn't get nominated for being John Malkovich, which was crazy. And I was like, oh, right. Also, not to be cynical, But like we could give it to Andrew Scott, but there is this straight guy who also we could give it to. He did wear a rough on the red carpet in Venice, though. So he's fashion, at least.

48:19No, it's true. So I don't know. I'm beginning to think that it's not a nine-horse race, but it is more of a two-horse race in this category than I thought it was just two weeks ago. I don't want to boil it down to a two-horse race, but I don't – I think things have to shift to make it more than a two-horse race because that's certainly what it feels like. right now. Chris, who do you have in second place? I have Andrew Scott in second place for El Salvador. I think he's great in the movie. It's a fantastic movie. I have questions about whether the rest of the movie will get in. I don't think it necessarily needs to get in Best Picture for him to win.

48:56For this movie, The Whale, that doesn't exist, that actually happened, right? Like Brendan Fraser made a lot of people cry and the movie didn't get nominated and he still won. And then it got, you know, whatever. Andrew Scott, I think, is way better than Brendan Frasier in The Whale in this movie. I thought he's great. Let's never compare these two movies again. I really liked this movie too. I thought it was great. Like it's like certainly a great movie and I think it would be a deserve a best picture nominee. But I just am like, I'm going to, I mean, I don't want to stay. I have Matt Damon won because I think that like we did this with Oppenheimer and it was like Oppenheimer was going to win best picture.

49:30And in the end it was like, why wouldn't Kelly Murphy also win best actor? It's a different race. Certainly like Paul Giamatti wasn't as strong as I don't think Andrew Scott or John Malkovich are. But I'm just like, he's like, if it's going to win Best Picture, why won't Matt Damon also win? And he's got a great narrative, too. So that was why I went with him. Slight edge over Andrew Scott. I think that is the question of like, if a movie is as dominant as we expect The Odyssey to be and has this big lead performance in the middle of it, why wouldn't you expect it to win? Like, possibly that's why Leo doesn't win for one battle after another, because that movie is more of an ensemble and Michael B.

49:59Jordan is more at the center of it. And then that's why I have Matt Damon at number two, because I think that's exactly the argument for it. Like the Odyssey feels quieter right now. All of these smaller movies have gotten the chance to be dominant. Odyssey is going to be absolutely everywhere. Matt Damon's going to be everywhere. And he is a, you know, a capital M movie star, capital A-list movie stars, maybe what I mean. And that counts for so much. And I guess I'll get to a minute why I don't have him at number one. But I think I think that's a good way to put it. So, Richard, you're number one then is Andrew Scott, right?

50:31Oh, no, no, no, no. Oh, yeah, Malkovich number one. No, no, no. I don't have either of those. I have K.J. Appa from that religious movie. Yes, I have Andrew Scott. I think there is a big valid question, to your point, Chris, about where else Elsinore can show up. I think they're going to make a play for Coleman in supporting. I think that they'll try to go after screenplay and probably cinematography. I did a little research, and I believe since 1968, only two actors have one best actor as the sole nominees from their films. Forrest Whitaker in Last King of Scotland, and then in the 60s, I forget, it's some other random thing.

51:17So it would be really hard for Scott to win just going by the numbers if he's the only nominee from Elsinore, but I don't think that's what's going to happen with that movie. And I do think that his performance will appeal to enough people in the Academy. me. He's going to campaign for it very well and be very charming in a way that Malkovich does not have the best reputation. He can be prickly and difficult. So I hear. Scott, I don't know. I don't think that's true about him. You saw Oprah hug him. You see the power he has. Oprah hugged him. That's going to that's going to help a lot. He's going to have a lot of people behind him.

51:53I also think that if you're looking at a landscape and this sounds really cynical, I know that we're looking at a very Oscar So White year right now, depending on a couple things happening or not happening, that the Academy will have in mind trying to make history at least in some way or be representative in some way. And Andrew Scott, in 2026, being the first out gay actor to ever win an acting Oscar, is just like, what are we doing, guys? Have you met Showbiz? Do you know how many gay guys there are? So I don't know. I just think all of those things combined he's my number one but that said I just yeah I have this kind of increasing sort of feeling about Malkovich so and I don't think I'm thinking about Brookback Mountain where like it losing to Crash feels like this like really dispiriting moment of like oh we thought we were ready and we're not I don't think Malkovich beating Andrew Scott would feel that way but I do have this kind of bracing of being like okay guys it's time here's this actor you love he was the hot priest on Fleabag he's a famous person and if it doesn't happen is it being like well shit we really can't handle a movie that's like, Elsinore is like, I think a gay movie, but it's not like scandalizing or anything.

53:02It is a very palatable movie without shrinking away from what it's about. Elsinore flatters a lot of the people in the Academy because it's largely about, I think like, it's a tribute to the artistic community that really embraced and helped these men as they were dying in the 80s, especially, you know, and were outliers in that regard. It is a celebration of creative community in a way that I would hope, would think the Academy will be like, oh, he's talking about us. But we'll see. Yeah. And I think that for some of our critic friends who came out of Elstor being like, OK, it's got a lot of montages.

53:36Like, it's a little heavy handed. Like, I don't think that's how the broader audience and a lot of Academy members are going to respond. It's incredibly moving. I mean, the whale is so subtle, though. I do think, though, it is incredibly moving. And like, I think that does matter. Like, you are you are moved by the movie, right? Like, I think people like really are going to respond to it. And they're not going to be thinking like it has too many montages. They're going to be like, oh, my God, it was so like I cried my eyes out. But it's also really funny. And like it's like really entertaining it, too.

54:02Right. Like he's so engaging as Ian Charlson. And like he kind of really you get a lot of the sense of his like embrace of life, even amid like his his demise. I just think it's like it is a beautiful performance. I mean, I think if it gets in for best picture, like if we're talking like January whatever 20th and it's in for best picture, like I would say he probably should win. because like if I think that's really the only doubt for me because like I just especially the best actor it's so typically aligned with the best picture nomination and I mean I think Richard's right I think it can get in for picture Olivia Colman or Billy Piper maybe because she's really great in it really good maybe even better than Olivia Colman and wouldn't be funny if like Billy Piper ends up being like the uh I don't know like Judd Hirsch and Delroy Lindo of this year where nobody's nominating her and then she just gets an Oscar nomination in the end because like that is It's like she's so good in it and she has like such key emotional scenes in the movie with him.

54:53Whereas Olivia Colman's kind of playing a hard ass, which is great. And she's good at it. And she has a little great moment at the end, too. Yeah. I mean, maybe I'm talking myself into him. Yeah. Maybe I'm talking myself into him winning. I think it's like this is probably like, I mean, with those three guys, right? Like that we have at the top. Is this the closest best actor race at this point we could say we've had in like a long time? I feel like they always feel really close. I mean, this feels like really tight, though. Like you can make a great argument for all of them. I'm sure having DiCaprio, Michael Jordan, and Chalamet also felt like this for a long time.

55:23And like we thought, I mean, I thought George Clooney was in it longer than maybe everybody else did. But it felt tight at this point. He didn't have a movie last year. No, that's actually just going to come out when The Whale comes out. I'm going to go see The Uprising and The Whale and Jay Kelly. Opening day. Perfect triple feature. I just keep maintaining in a year where we're going to be talking about huge, huge movies. That's The Odyssey, Project Hail Mary, Dune 3. Le Bolognese also is like a big sweeping epic. you have an advantage of being small, of having that kind of like heartstring pulling alternate lane.

55:52And I think that's what Elsinore and Wild Horse 9 have is a huge strength that is easy to underestimate right now. I also, again, that sounds crazy cynical, but like this has been a pretty rough year for celebrity deaths. And a movie that like is about the mortality of a somewhat famous actor and applying his, you know, practicing his craft to the very end of his life. Like, I think there's something that will like kind of hook into people's brains about like, you know, the sort of nobility of making art and it's a sort of celebration of that, you know, I don't know. But then again, I sometimes overestimate the sentimentality of the Academy, you know?

56:32Sure. And maybe something prickly and cooler like Wild Horse 9 is just like, the Euro branch of the Academy will vote for that over something that they see kind of to be schmaltzy or whatever. Or maybe the Odyssey meets it right in the middle, kind of combination of both. Or that. When was the last time either of you guys saw Chariots of Fire? Did it inspire you to want to rewatch it? I watched it for the first time maybe ever on a plane very recently. Boring movie. So I shouldn't go revisiting it. The Vangelis score and the running on the beach are just bookends at the beginning and end of the movie.

57:04They're not in the, it's not in the movie, really. It's weird. I mean, I don't, I saw it as a middle schooler and have no memory of Andrew Olsen or anything at all. So I feel like I want to revisit it, but this is probably a fair warning that maybe it won't be super rewarding. Is there a reason that none of us picked Johnny Depp for Ebenezer? You know, I thought about drafting in the movie Fantasy League for the box office points because I worry that movie's going to make a fortune. We've gone so long and we should wrap it up, but there's a couple people that none of us mentioned that we should probably get into.

57:34I did put Brad Pitt on the list for Cliff Booth. We have no idea, really. Winning an Oscar for the same performance twice would be very strange and probably unlikely. I did put Jordan Firstman down. I don't think that's a likely acting play, but I think all of us came out of the festivals pretty bullish on Club Kid and how far it can go. So Globe nomination, that seems possible. Anyone else that you guys want to mention who we didn't get into? I mean, I guess we would have to sort of leave a little space open for like a Jeremy Strong if they would run him in lead as Mark Zuckerberg. But like the vibes surrounding that movie seem not great.

58:11So it seems a little rough. It seems like a supporting performance to me, but we also we don't know anything the other one i was thinking of and i really like this performance uh but i don't think it's gonna happen is jack o 'connell in ink he is really good in ink he's great in ink and i think people really like him i don't think the movie it wasn't really like nagged a lot at the festivals but i don't also don't think people loved it enough to like kind of like champion it i guess that that would be my take on it yeah i wonder about it fading i also wrote down and speaking about fading uh miles teller in paper tiger i think he's the lead actor and Adam Driver would be supporting.

58:43I think Miles Seller is really good in a really good movie, but James Gray's history with the Oscars just makes all of us in a crouched position. I think you just never assume that he's going to get through. And if anyone got nominated, I think it would be Johansson. Yeah. I mean, I think Adam Driver is wonderful in that movie and he would be my standout, but I guess that's our supporting conversation. Yeah, let's just do the supporting episode now. We've gone a full hour without mentioning Timothee Chalamet. We sure have. are we allowed to do you're allowed to not mention timothy chalamet i put him down because as with everything with dune 3 it's a question mark i think he's been great in those movies um it's probably best for everyone involved if he takes a year off of being an oscar nominee but who knows what if he did nothing and just won he doesn't do one interview that would probably be a useful lesson for for everybody um yeah we did go a full hour good for us this was obviously very fun um And yeah, everyone should just take all of our predictions to the bank, right?

59:37This is the order precisely it's going to happen. I think we're on to something with Turturro. Oh, absolutely. I literally would bet money on it if you were so inclined to. It's just like you have that hunch, you know, where you kind of see the pattern from past Sony Classics movies. It just feels exactly right. And no one's going to groan about it being on their screener pile. Everyone's going to want to watch it, you know, because it's a fun pickpocket New York movie. It feels like a 70s movie or something. and so that many more like I think there are some of these movies that we've mentioned that people are going to be like oh I don't know it's going to feel like homework that movie will not yeah okay Richard we will let you go people can subscribe to your newsletter and listen to your podcast yeah premiereparty.com is the newsletter and Critical Darlings is the podcast this was a delight thank you for joining us and for those of you listening stick around I'll be right back with my conversation with Olivia Wilde about the invite

1:00:31now let's hear my conversation with olivia wilde the director and the star of the invite this is a grown-up movie with an incredible cast that was a box office success this summer how often do we ever get to say that and it's a really fascinating step for olivia wilde both as an actress she is pretty terrific in the movie as a wife who is trying to host a dinner party alongside her somewhat a surprise husband who's played by Seth Rogen, and many things go off the rails from there. And it's also a great development for her as a director. I got to talk to her about taking on this script, written by Rashida Jones and Will McCormick, and adapted from a Spanish film that has since been adapted in a lot of other countries.

1:01:11And what you do when you can take a story that's been told that many times and turn it into your own. She had this really unusual process of making the film where she got the film's cast. It also stars Penelope Cruz and Edward Norton. She got all of them together for weeks of rehearsal before they actually started filming. So everyone got to have a lot of input into their characters and how the film worked. And we talked about how she worked with the film's cinematographer, Adam Newport-Berra. He also worked on Seth Rogan's show, The Studio. You might recognize how beautiful both of them look.

1:01:41The invite is really rooted in the apartment where the entire thing takes place. It does not at all feel like a play that's somehow been filmed. And that's the result of some really deliberate choices that she made. We got into all of that and so much more here at all in my conversation with the director of The Invite, Olivia Wilde.

1:02:00You've been doing a bunch of screenings in the last couple of days. You've been back in invite land. Yeah, which has been so fun because it's my favorite land. You know, we did a really fun one last night at the DGA. And I'm amazed because the two or three we've done this weekend have been full. Like the SAG one was full and then this one at the DGA, which is a multi-guild one. And the movie is not only still available like in theaters, limited, but still. but it's like you can watch it on at home now and the fact that people are still showing up that floored me because this I just didn't know you know I thought well I don't know they can watch it at home are they gonna bother and they bothered yeah well I was thinking about how at Sundance you were saying or maybe after Sundance when A24 picked it up like that having this movie be in theaters was such a priority for you yes and it's not just that the movie's been traveling all over but like you've been all over you're in Chicago and Boston like there might be an international tour in there.

1:02:58So like, you've gotten to witness that theatrical experience, which I think is like an extra special version of doing this. Yeah. And that was actually, that was a part of the A24 deal in a way that, you know, really hooked me when we were at Sundance and we were having all these different conversations with different potential homes for the movie, different distributors. And I said, what do you guys think about, you know, in the way that you're in the middle of the night trying to suss out whether it's like speed dating, right? And you're trying to figure out like, are you the right partner? I can't believe they still actually do it in the middle of the night too.

1:03:33I thought it would have gone away. I didn't think that was real until we were there and we did two full nights. And I was like, I don't know if I should be making decisions like this. Seriously, someone's got to sleep eventually. I shouldn't drive, let alone make a huge decision. But it was it was fascinating. And you're trying to figure out like, all these people are wonderful people, right? Like every everybody who you're meeting is a film lover and they are deeply passionate. And I really enjoyed each conversation. And so you're thinking, okay, what can I ask that really lets me know whether these people are dreaming of the same future for this film that I am.

1:04:07And I said to the A24 team, I said, what do you think about taking the film on the road, so to speak, taking a print, making prints and going to the great kind of movie palaces in this country and And actually projecting the print and having a chance to see this film with audiences who really are looking for that experience, looking to support actual 35 millimeter, you know, films that come to their towns and then get this awesome kind of incredible showing in these movie palaces that have been around for like 100 years. So they were like, that's we're doing that. And I thought, OK, they're saying that to hook me, but are we really going to do it?

1:04:49and they stayed true to their word. And so we did San Francisco. We went to the Castro, which is newly renovated and it's unbelievable. We went to the Music Box in Chicago. We went to the Boston Incredible. Coolidge Corner, right? Coolidge. Yeah. Holy shit. Just unbelievable. Yeah, Boston people are obsessed with that theater. Rightly so. Like that was one of the greatest screenings. Then we did a bunch more places. Seattle. It was great because I not only got to see the film with all these different audiences, but I got to meet the projectionists. And that for me was a very, very cool experience.

1:05:30Did you get them where they're like pre-gaming for the Odyssey being like, okay, we got to lift those 70 millimeter. I just imagine like what a summer it was for the projectionists. I know. It's so cool. Actually, the projectionists in Chicago are two awesome women who are the only ones who can project 35 and 70 in Chicago. So they're really in charge of that at the Music Box. And I think they work in a few other theaters. And I just was obsessed with them and their process and kind of like trying to take videos as they were loading the reels. And I think that was one of the highlights of this entire experience, for sure.

1:06:02Oh, yeah. Well, watching your own movie with audiences that many times, I mean, you watch your movie so many times and you're making it and then you set it out in the world and the audience is going to do all these different things that you can't predict. Like, what do you learn about your movie watching it in that way, you know, on this tour? You learn really what resonates with people and what changes based on the kind of room they're in and the amount of people in there. Like, it became very clear right away that the experience of seeing this film with others was very different. And I know that we always feel like that as movie lovers, you know.

1:06:38Oh, we feel differently watching it at home and in theater. And this was a different level of that for me. It was like there was this collective catharsis happening. People were very vocal. People were much more emotional than I expected. People really wanted to stay afterwards and talk. It was fascinating because the kind of context of their experience was very specifically set based on what films were playing with it or what kind of conversations. Oh, did you do like double features? We did double features. And there's actually one happening tonight, tomorrow, and the next night, the New Beverly.

1:07:11They're pairing us with Bob Carroll, Ted Nallis, which was the dream. But it really did, I think, change people's perception of the experience. Or if we had a Q &A with, you know, a relationship expert to talk about the themes of the film in that way would really kind of alter the conversations people would have afterwards. So it was fascinating. It proves that the movie is this living, breathing thing that does change based on the context of the distribution of it. I think the audiences started to very quickly own the movie and become ambassadors of it in a way that they really wanted to show it to others.

1:07:53So we had this phenomenon of repeat viewers who were bringing partners to see it. You know, they're saying, I just need to watch this with my wife or I've got to show my boyfriend this movie. Are people afraid to watch it with their spouses also? That feels like a real flip side of that. It's interesting because I've definitely, you know, had those conversations where people wonder about that. And then they, but I've had many more conversations with people saying that they really benefited from watching it with their partner and they're glad they made that happen and that the conversations they had afterwards were valuable in different ways.

1:08:25You know, I never wanted people to think that this movie would be stressful to see as a kind of date movie. You know, I want it's supposed to, at the very least, make you feel seen as someone even attempting a relationship. I think it is designed to feel very kind of human and relatable and in the best way, make us laugh at our own shame. You know, it just seems like a worthwhile endeavor. Did you intend it to feel stressful as someone who might host a dinner party? Because that might have been the higher level of stress for me. is who hasn't well first of all who would try to make a souffle having people remember before it's insane behavior but i feel like everyone has had a version of that happen to them which maybe is more of where you wanted to twist the screws a little bit i did want to very specifically pluck on the the the kind of trauma point of of social pressure of of hosting specifically and i think because for me that is something that i'm not a natural at like i don't i'm not someone who's like, come on by, I'll roast a chicken.

1:09:29Like I always wanted to be like how I imagined like Joan Didion and like her beach house in Malibu. Or like Ina Garten. Exactly. Like, oh, no problem. And I have friends who are like that. Then I'm like, what are you, a magician? This is, how did you do this? I'm a much better guest because I'll show up and eat anything and talk to anyone and be happy. Hosting is this incredibly impressive thing to me. And I remember deciding that we should do the souffle because I thought like, what is the kind of mistake I would make is like pick something inevitably disastrous because it's just too complex and then get really angry about it and then ultimately just get rid of it immediately and pretend no one saw it.

1:10:11Well, I've seen this pointed out. I don't know if it's like a clip that's gone online or something, but the move specifically of taking the souffle out of the oven, this is like a real acting choice. It's almost like an unbroken motion, like never a second thought of getting rid of it. I'm curious about how that specifically came to be. That was one of my favorite moments, actually, because that came from a conversation with Adam Newbarbera, my DP, who really is very much my partner on this movie in every way. And he and I were kind of playing around in the kitchen set. You know, the apartment set was built on the stage right next to our production office.

1:10:45So we had this benefit of being able to cruise through there every day, seeing the progress, designing shots as it was being put together. We were in the kitchen and he said, I said, I've got to throw away the souffle. And he's like, maybe we hold that in the wide and you just do it. And I said, oh, it's funny. Like she does it as though no one has seen her do it. Yeah. In the same way that she has these arguments with her husband as though they can't be heard. and we hadn't done it until we shot it but it was so clear to me the second it happened that adam had had this brilliant idea and i was so grateful because i thought i don't know if i if it would have occurred to me to just uh to to choose to shoot it in exactly that way and he had an instinct and he was correct yeah i wanted to ask about adam newport bear i got to talk to him for the studio last year i'm just kind of about like his work of making something look beautiful and strange, which is so much of what happens in this.

1:11:39But did you work together on the invite first or on the studio? What's the order? Studio first. So I met him on the studio and I was observing that crew on the studio and I was like, wait a minute, these guys are unbelievable because everyone talks about the one-er episode. But as you know, each scene is a one-er. So I was watching them work. And you guys were at night, which is like way harder, I think. Way harder. And there was like a stunt involved and it started in the car. So that they They had to drive up the road and then the camera moves with them. And then it ends up the stunt going down the hill.

1:12:12Like that crew is unmatched. They're brilliant. And so I was observing them like, wait a minute, hang on. And then once I convinced Seth to come and do the movie, right after he had told me he was done doing Friends movies. I was like, one more. But he really spoke highly of Adam in their collaboration at that point was many months deep. And he loved him. And Seth has very high standards. And so I was like, well, I'm going to see if I can convince him to the invite. And it's such an honor because he's so good. And we really linked brains along with Jade Healy, our production designer. And we became this little brain trust.

1:12:56and one might think that that a movie like that kind of seems simple on the surface but we knew we had this challenge in front of us of how do we turn a one location film into something that will not become redundant or limited or overly claustrophobic and we all kind of loved taking on a challenge that to many people I think would have seemed either uninteresting or or too tricky but we all kind of found something about it that we really loved like jade became obsessed with architecture as boundaries frames within frames it was very cool that we were able to design the set together for the shots because the whole thing was like i've always wanted to make a film that felt effortless but that was actually very carefully constructed so that you you have this preparation and this design work that allows for real freedom of performance.

1:13:57And so we just geeked out together as a little trio and they are extraordinary and young and they are going to make so many more amazing movies. And I hope I get to do some of them with them. I think that's what dinner parties are, too, though. Like it looks effortless, but it takes like several days of having a grocery list nailed down. And then once you get there, you're like, oh, I just threw this together. It's fine. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Well, with you and Adam and Jade specifically, I was curious how you guys thought about like beauty and aesthetics within this apartment. Yeah. Because you've got, you know, you're dyeing your shirt to match the walls.

1:14:31Like there's all this careful attention to it. And there's this, you know, the character detail that it's an apartment that's been inherited. So it's kind of way too big for these people. But like, I think it looks a little bit nicer still because it's a movie, but it's not like a Nancy Meyers movie where like it's the point that it's beautiful. And I think that's just a lot of really careful detailing of how did you figure out how to make this place look the way that it does and look good, but not so good that you don't buy it as being a real place. Yes, exactly. The great thing is when you have a single location film, you can actually spend all this time focusing on the design of that location.

1:15:01I thought you were going to say spend all the budget on it, too. And the budget. And our little tiny budget. And it was great to just be able to focus on that. You know, it's not like we were scouting or designing other places. We really were just building that place and having a chance to talk about every corner and then to be able to actually use every inch of the space. Because it's really heartbreaking when you design a beautiful set and then in the film, it's maybe, you know, eight minutes, if you're lucky, of the film. This was a chance to really use every bit of that space. I mean, really no corner untouched.

1:15:39And it was a combination of finding a way to tell the story through it. So exactly as you're saying, the history of Joe and his family and the shame involved in this place being beyond his means, the clear attempt and effort on Angela's part to cover up everything, to present and perform a certain kind of life and to kind of exercise an artistic instinct that had been kind of dampened or abandoned. And then at the same time, just make something aesthetically beautiful, as you said, like something that's just like it's a movie. You want it to be gorgeous. Yeah. And really trying to keep that balance.

1:16:18Is Angela just spending way too much money on credit cards to get some of this furniture? Is that how it comes to this? No, she's actually very resourceful. She uses a lot of Facebook Marketplace. Oh, God. And a lot of like architectural salvage yards. And she's very resourceful. We actually were very specific about making sure we didn't spend more than we thought she could spend. Okay. Facebook Marketplace. It's because you can get anything. It's a real dream. I'm sure you can get unbelievable stuff. There's actually a line in the movie where we call it out. We're like, we have to say something.

1:16:48And it was like giving the tour of the bathroom to Hawk. And then I just point the toilet and go, Facebook Marketplace. And it was basically me doing an impression of Jade and how she would show me every element of the set and be like, did you see it? Facebook Marketplace. I mean, look, you got to show it off and just notice it. Well, to rewind a little bit from the beginnings of this, knowing that this script had been around, you know, the idea of remaking this for a long time, like you had auditioned for it at one point a long time ago. No, I hadn't auditioned. You had read for Pina at some point.

1:17:15No. Okay, so that didn't happen. I had read for it. I had read the script. Okay. Yes. Well, okay. So, yes, the origin of this movie is obviously the Spanish film, The People Upstairs. And that was originally a play. It's called Sentimental in Spain. and sesge had written that play directed it then adapted his own work into a movie then that had been adapted into several different languages yeah like every country gets their own version exactly and then rashida jones and willman cormick were hired to write the english language adaptation that script existed in the ether there was a version of it that was going to be made several years ago different directors different actors entirely and then that that was the one many years ago I had read and I thought that's a really cool idea.

1:18:01And I watched the original film and then that project just faded away. And then, uh, then it, it came back as this sometimes happens. This is what happens, happened with Booksmart too. It like was one that had existed, then away and then back. And then it came to me and, and I was so excited because I thought this, This is a great script that is a perfect piece of material to involve now a cast of incredible actors and engage in a workshopping process to further adapt it to specify these characters based on great actors, which is something that I had always wanted to do. So it was based on this kind of long held desire to workshop a movie with actors and to approach it like a play, to have a workshopping period of a couple weeks and then to be able to shoot it sequentially in order.

1:19:02So it was a simple story, but it provided this framework to be able to have a production and a process that was designed for discovery. And that was enormously inspiring. And then Rashida and Will were incredible because as a cast, this script was evolving at such a rapid pace. I mean, every day of that workshopping process, it was like a massive idea that would require a lot of recalibrating of the script. And they were just so incredibly open to that, which was amazing. And it changed enormously, like really big plot changes. And the characters became the creation of the actors in a way that is hard to overstate.

1:20:00I mean, really, their DNA is embedded in this. And the authorship of everyone in that movie is something that I think can only happen with this energy that everyone brought to it. It was not a gig for anyone, put it that way. Well, such a theater thing, the idea of devising something together in that way. Yeah. Well, OK, so you're giving credit to the actors for how they shape their characters. How do you shape your character? Who was Angela before you dug in on this process? You know, Angela was already a great character, really well written and so funny. I think that I approached her in a way that was inspired by many great actresses and their performances before me.

1:20:41People like, of course, Diane Keaton, to whom the movie is dedicated. there's a lot of Annie Hall in there. There's also Judy Davis from Husbands and Wives. You know, that is one of the greatest performances of all time in my book. There is this type of highly strong energy that I think is not something that we associate with likability. And we are often very dismissive of and it can be very grating and I thought I I want her to be kind of unbearable because she feels unbearable to her to herself and then for us to kind of be able to understand why I empathize with her and hopefully feel a certain amount of compassion for her.

1:21:29But so I suppose like, because I was playing her, I knew that I could push her to the edge of potentially being like too unbearable because I could control in the edit. I think if I was just an actress in it, you know what I mean? You'd be like, I don't know. Are you going to, you know, actors are so trusting. They're so brave. They're giving you so much of themselves and trusting you to really calibrate that. And I think because I knew that I could really calibrate it in post, then I really just went for it in a way that was beyond, I think, what we originally started in the material. It was just something that felt necessary because we had, you know, the characters were existing as this kind of, in this combustion point.

1:22:18Like, they were about to erupt. And I wanted that to be present in Angela in a way that meant she could not be played in any way as like a chill woman. She had to be truly seeming like she's on the brink of a nervous breakdown, which, you know, she's trying very hard to cover, but just can't possibly because it's hard to do that when you have witnesses who are as authentic and, you know, just, yeah, sincere as Pina and Hawk. Well, I feel like there was something in her, and this may be projecting and probably is projecting, but like as a woman in your 40s, when you get to a certain point where you're like, everyone knows cool things that I don't know.

1:22:56I have to listen to podcasts to figure out what's going on in the world. There's like something very real and like, not cool about it at all. But you may have been hearing this with other people. It feels like this kind of like raw nerve touching on like very specific thing. Totally. Also, it's so hard to know if you're adulting correctly. And like when someone's in your house, it's the ultimate experience of that because you're like, I don't know, is this how it's supposed to look and feel and is this jamone i don't know is it jamone and and you can gather as much as you can from you know the internet and what people the guy at the meet at the butcher told you would go over well with guests but you're just constantly performing this adulthood and there is this uh stage of life where you're still sort of feeling like you are too young for it and yet you you actually aren't.

1:23:47You're like, I'm supposed to have it figured out by now, but it can feel a little bit like you are putting on a costume of a grownup. And I think that for Angela, the reason she's aching for some kind of combustion to happen is because she just needs to know, like, is this, am I doing this right? Can someone witness this and help me understand if I'm in the right place? whereas Jo has kind of succumbed to this feeling of numbness and surrender. I mean, she hasn't quite surrendered yet. Yeah. Well, I was going to ask you if this movie feels specifically millennial to you at all because I feel like that idea of like not being an adult, right.

1:24:27But maybe you watch this with Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice and realize, oh, it's always been the same or if there's a specific generation. Those characters were younger than us, right? Like Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice, they're young. But they look like grownups. How? Hard 70s living, you know what I mean? That's true. I think we've now just delayed that. I think millennials, you know, we all just have this kind of extended adolescence. And we have this mixture of like trauma and optimism. Like we really have been through a lot as a generation that makes sense why we are kind of riddled with anxiety.

1:25:10And at the same time, there is this optimism that led to the, you know, the tech revolution and companies like WeWork and like, you know, the wing, you know, people being like, we believe in this kind of utopian idea of capitalism that can actually be really positive. And I think that there's this realism in the Gen Z folks that I know that's a little less rosy when it comes to those things. And so I think that Angela and Joe really started out as artists who thought they might be professional artists, they might make it. And when they didn't, they sort of fell into line as adults who now have a child and will kind of follow the footsteps of their parents.

1:26:02but it is such a different world that you'll never quite feel, they'll never quite feel like that they belong there. And yeah, I think a lot of people are relating to that. What's fascinating to me, though, are the young, young people who've connected with this movie. When we did that tour around the country, we also went to colleges. And I talked to some, you know, 19, 20-year-olds who were saying, man, this movie is for me. This is so me. and at first I was really flummoxed because I thought like what we're like middle-aged people struggling with you know regret and shame and and then I thought like but when I was 16 my favorite movie was Hannah and Her Sisters you know like what did I know and I think that there's a there's a universality to the idea of of you know struggling with with identity and truth and taking responsibility for one's happiness and really specifically in relationships.

1:26:57Also, young people today are so well versed in like therapy. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. In a way that's pretty extraordinary. They're using terms like we weren't talking about like narcissism and sociopaths and projection and transference. They are well versed. Yeah. God bless them. Yeah. A specific question for you again about the story as we start to wrap this up. You talk about them having this daughter, but the daughter's not there. The room is there, which is totally fascinating. But I'm curious where in the process you guys realized that this kid was going to be completely absent, but felt through the whole thing.

1:27:31The decision came from this understanding of, you know, sometimes in these types of relationships, you can sustain for quite a long time focusing on parenting because it is where most people do overlap in terms of, you know, what they still both can agree on and they love. And two people can stay in a relationship for a long time if all you ever talk about is your child or your children. And if the child is present, it's very easy to kind of distract from all the obvious gaps, the relationship, because you can just focus on this thing. And so the idea of when you are removed from the children, you are then kind of forced to recognize what's actually there, what's actually left.

1:28:14And I think, you know, this is true for a lot of people. And even in, I mean, in lots of different films from Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf, which is obviously, you know, an influence on it in many ways. But in that film, the child becomes a very different kind of part of the story. But the same idea that there is they speak of a child who's not there. You know, Woman Under the Influence, the movie starts with the children going away, which kind of allows for Mabel to for it to become clear of what she's dealing with, what they're dealing with away from them. So it was a decision that, you know, it felt right.

1:28:55And it's so interesting because the presence of the bedroom provided this really interesting place to stage the part of the end of the film. and it was a beautifully designed room with so many layers of handmade art and so much that went into it and it it really presented itself as only really being necessary for that moment but the idea of holding back and then acknowledging her at that point uh felt felt really right yeah um yeah that's interesting there's also just a real tragedy and like you have the kid out of the house for the night you have all the night in front of you and then the night sucks it's like oh my god the wasted night away it's so true and there's also like there's this thing that happens where they have yeah they have this ticking clock of like once the opportunity is presented to them to maybe have this wild night with their neighbors there's this sense of like it should it should happen now it has to happen now yeah it's just like there's nothing no one more like intense or debaucherous than parents on a night away from their kids.

1:29:59We're going all night. It's true. It's absolutely exhausting. And then maybe once in a while. That does it for today's episode. We'll be back next week. This podcast is edited by Brett Fox and produced by Brett Fox and me. Our theme music is by Dave Gonzalez. Thanks again to our co-host this week, Richard Lawson. You can find the Prestige Junkie newsletter at theinkler.com and you can subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and all the places you get your podcasts. There's also a video version. If you're not watching it already, it looks pretty great. In the meantime, we will see you next week.