Prestige Box Office Wins with Sean Fennessey, Plus Sophie Okonedo on Clarissa

0:00All new holiday drinks are now at McDonald's. Like the Frosted Cranberry Splash with Sprite, the Red Bull Frosted Cranberry Energizer and Cookie Butter Coffees. It is the season for seasonal drinks at McDonald's. People often think I've played loads of leading roles and I'm like, I really haven't. I really haven't. I just shout from the back and hope people will notice.

0:26Hi everyone, I'm Katie Rich. This is the Prestige Junkie Podcast. And today we're doing, I guess, a fall, mid-fall award season check-in, specifically about the box office and how some of these contenders we're keeping an eye on are doing, making money, not making money, and how all that's shaking out. To join me for that conversation, I'm joined as always by my colleague, Chris Rosen. Hello, Chris. Hello. And joining us once again, Chris's Telluride buddy, my Can buddy. I think now, since we last had you on the show, Sean, we got to hang out at Can. Sean Fennessy of The Ringer and the Big Picture.

0:55Hi, Sean.

0:56Sean Fennessey: Hi, guys. So nice to be back. It's so funny when you turn on your podcast voice, as I am doing right now, Katie. So we're just chatting. I know. And then you turned it on. And now we're working. And here we are. Now we're working. You're right. We're showing no pieces to the people. So we'll talk about movies and all of that stuff. And then after that, you'll hear my conversation with Sophie O 'Connado, who is starring in two super fascinating films this fall, Mouse and Clarissa. All that is coming up. Welcome to the show. Okay, Sean, I'm honored that you're coming to use your podcast voice on us.

1:26And I will say when we talked about having you on the show for a while and I had kind of thrown up this idea for now of saying box office is something you talk about on your show. Chris and I talk about it all the time. Surely there would be something to talk about. I kind of thought this would be like a pre Thanksgiving, pre Dune kind of thing. And then since we started this conversation in a massive box office award story has emerged and you can see everything. So the timing could not be better. I want to talk about a lot of different movies. But honestly, Sean, knowing that you you talk to people both like on your show and just I think you run into people in L.A.

1:56For me, over the last few weeks, every conversation I've had with about whatever it was totally unrelated to awards has eventually gone back to you can see everything in this crazy way. And I'm curious if it's the same for you.

2:06Sean Fennessey: No doubt. I just before coming on with you guys, I interviewed Ross McElwee, the legendary documentarian who was, in fact, a professor at Harvard of Lance Oppenheim's who taught him about making documentary. and I watched him in real time explain to me his thoughts on you can see everything. So it is really widely permeated the film culture in fascinating ways. And yeah, it's like, it's also a big time Hollywood story. And so it's something that I think probably all of our parents are aware of. And when a movie gets to that level, you know that something big is happening. Whether or not that translates though to the awards race, I continue to be fascinated by.

2:45Sean Fennessey: I don't know where you guys stand on it at this point. Yeah, I want to ask you, went off the record what Ross Munkle we talked to you about because every documentary I've talked every documentarian I've talked to when you go off the record they'll get into all the details about the doc community and the Oscar branch and no one ever wants to do it off on the record for good reason but Chris you were there at that Telluride premiere you guys were both there how much does this surprise you of kind of the craziness around this movie since then? I really think it surprises me I mean I knew it would be like a thing like when we were talking like everyone was so excited about it and obviously that screening was so crazy and so cool and all this stuff But I guess even watching it, I was like, oh, this is really great.

3:19And like, it's amazing. I can't believe I'm watching. But I didn't realize until we got out because they'd released the trailer like right on top of that. And it was like it just went everywhere. It was like getting aggregated by every site, like like New York Post writing. You know what I mean? Like it was like every it really immediately broke containment away from like Telluride, certainly. But like from film Twitter even. And I guess even then going into the box office, I was I'm still surprised. I mean, it's going to make like almost 100 million dollars at the box office, which is lunacy to me for a three hour movie about Elizabeth Holmes from Nathan Fielder.

3:51That just seems like strange in and of itself. But to me, it's like hard. Like you can't ignore the success. And that's I'm like pretty. I'm very bullish on this movie for like awards because I just think that it's it cannot be ignored. It's the movie everyone wants to talk about. It just reminds me in a lot of ways of like substance or all these other movies that kind of went viral during Oscar season. and then carry through. So like, yeah, but out of the screening in Telluride, like until I saw the trailer, I was like, oh, this is cool, but I don't think it's going to be like this. Now it's everyone knows about it.

4:23You should have known though, like how viral that one trailer went. Like when was the last time we saw a trailer go viral the way that that did when no one had seen it?

4:29Sean Fennessey: Well, it's such a masterfully marketed movie in so many ways from beginning with that screening and making it a secret screening, which is I think unprecedented at Telluride at least. I think so. And then releasing that trailer almost simultaneous to it, concluding at the festival. So they got to match the Insta praise when we all got our phones back after that screening to that footage that they share in the film. And then there was the other, there's one other critical thing that happened, which I'm sure you talked about, Chris, which is Emma Stone moderated that Q &A between Nathan and Lance after the film.

4:57Sean Fennessey: And she was the one who essentially guided us slash scolded us not to spoil anything. And that kind of set the agenda for the way that this film was screened over the ensuing weeks, which then only just ramped up the enthusiasm about the secret. And then if there's a secret, people need to find out the secret. And so it makes it like, don't spoil this movie for me. It's something you would hear about a Marvel movie. It's not something you would hear about a documentary. And so creating that energy around the movie, I think has been tremendously successful commercially. Now, whether or not that ports over to award season is interesting because usually a movie like this needs to be buoyed over time by the critics' bodies, right?

5:37Sean Fennessey: It's not, this isn't a Golden Globes movie, really. Maybe it'll find its way into that space. But like it historically, a documentary would not be at the PGA's or at the DGA's or at all of these kind of ensuing guilds that we'll see over time. So you'd need New York Film Critics Circle. You'd need, you know, LA Film Critics Circle to reward it and kind of keep it in the conversation over time. I'm wondering if this movie can kind of withstand anything because of its phenomenological nature. I'm not sure yet, though. Here's my one thing that I realized looking at box office numbers to do this, because we've been talking about how it's going to make like a hundred million dollars.

6:12It basically hasn't played anywhere overseas at all. Like it is a completely American phenomenon. And again, in like talking to documentary filmmakers, I talked to one recently who said like, is the rest of the world interested in Elizabeth Holmes? And when you have the documentary branch, but also the entire Academy being so international, I have no idea how to figure that out. We're all Americans sitting here fascinated by this. But I do wonder if that's going to come around on this movie at some point.

6:35Sean Fennessey: I was just going to say, I'll tell you anecdotally from our show, people are just mad that we keep talking about it around the world because they don't want it spoiled for them. The spoiler thing is such a nightmare with this movie. Chris and I are in so much trouble every week. But, you know, we have Australian listeners. We have English listeners. We have folks in Europe who check out the show. And they're like, I can't listen to the show for the next three months because I don't know when this movie is opening in my country, which is driving them mad. Like A24 hasn't made any plans for it overseas at all?

7:01Sean Fennessey: I'm sure it's dated, but I do think it is. It's not until December, essentially. It's like old school. Remember, like, we used to have Oscar movies here in November and they'd come out in Britain in like March and they would drive people crazy. Anyway, Chris, what were you going to say? I was going to say in terms of like that with the International Academy. And I agree, like a lot of these, some of the, like, certainly like I play Rocky not to go off a tangent, but I was like, that's another one. I'm like, I don't think internet, do international people care about Rocky anymore? Does anybody care?

7:25I do, but like, does anybody else who knows? But like, in terms of this, I think that's more of a phase two. Like, I feel like there'll be enough passion to get it in for best picture of the people here in America, in LA, certainly. and like in other categories because like of the intense passion I think it will drive from people like it's a number one that movie to me is like a number one on a ballot in terms of like if you like the movie you're like number one best picture number one best director maybe even you know like that kind of thing and all of a sudden does it get in and maybe it does but I mean in terms of win I agree like I don't know if it has enough to to win beyond documentary which it might not even get nominated for so yeah where are we on that I feel like every week I change my mind about whether or not it's getting a doc nomination.

8:07And I think I'm at yes, but I change my mind constantly.

8:10Sean Fennessey: I've been saying no, and I think it'll stay no. But I could be wrong. I think that would, it would probably require kind of an act of cosmic bullying for it to happen because there's never been more discourse about what the doc branch is and what they do and the way that they're being othered by their peers in the film voting community. And so it'll be really interesting because there just hasn't been a movie like this since Michael Moore. I mean, Michael Moore being the great kind of commercial documentary artist of his time. And, you know, his reign had kind of an ignominious end when he was sort of booed from the stage after winning his documentary.

8:44Sean Fennessey: I guess, was it Bowling for Columbine that he won for? Yeah, because Fahrenheit 9-11 didn't win. Is that the, I should know this. I think that's the case. And, you know, it's sort of simultaneous to the Iraq War, which he spoke out against when he accepted that Academy Award. And so, you know, just the lack of celebrity and pop in recent Oscar winners. And when there is a pop winner like My Octopus Teacher, there's sort of like an outrage within the doc branch about that. And then this sort of persistent desire to not reward those movies. And then there's also the component of like the is it even a documentary question, which I'm sure the three of us could talk about for nine hours.

9:20Sean Fennessey: Oh, my God. It's fascinating to me. And this is the thing that documentary people talk about all the time. And so we're kind of like stomping on their territory. So are there going to be the spite votes of being like, nope, you can't tell us what we care about. we're going to care about NASA or other very worthy documentaries that are in there. Here's my box office question about this, where, you know, again, looking at the numbers for this film, but also other stuff. Do you think it cannibalized everything else that came out in October? Like, has it I mean, Clayface is doing fine. But in terms of awards, you know, Fjord, I think, is really struggling.

9:49Misty Green. Oh, it made so much less money than I realized. Has it been hard for other films to target this audience at all for a month now?

9:57Sean Fennessey: I would say so. Right. Yeah, I think so, too. And I'm curious, does it cannibalize even further A24 movies? That's what I'm like. Well, Club Kid's right on the horizon, right? Club Kid and certainly like the debut. I'll be curious to see how they do off of this because I just think so much attention is still with you can see everything. And like Sean is saying, no, people haven't seen it or dying to see it because the spoiler thing. And while debut, I think, is wonderful and Club Kid, I love like they don't have that like you got to see this because there's a big twist or something. You don't want it spoiled.

10:26And so it's just going to steamroll all these movies. You mentioned Fjord. I mean, that's kind of like completely come and gone. I think that's going to be probably on digital soon. I think I saw a tweet. Is it really? So a lot of these neon ones too are just getting like bowled over by you can see everything, which is just, again, lunacy on its face. I do think that it's like wild that this has become like a true box office phenomenon, but you know. Did it do in whale fall? Maybe whale fall. I never saw whale fall. I don't know if it did itself then. I didn't either. I did.

10:54Sean Fennessey: It's a fascinating movie that is 50 % the most successful movie of the year and 50 % very trite. I've seen all the movies that came out in October. It's been a truly amazing movie month. It doesn't mean every movie is amazing, but I think you're right that some movies have been wounded by it. And then there's clearly something going on with movies like Wildwood and Wicker where they're going to kind of slow burn their way to a kind of success in a way that I also find encouraging. So you can think about this two ways. On the one hand, one movie can blot out your art house crowd, but it can also draw more people back to going to see movies.

11:26Sean Fennessey: And that's been really the story of this year, right? It's just this kind of like we're going over 10 billion re-boom and the idea of people being more excited about revisiting movies. Because when you go to a new movie, like you can see everything, you see trailers for movies you might not be aware of. And once a movie like this breaks Contain, then you get more intrigued. Maybe you don't get intrigued by Fjord, but you might get intrigued by La Bola Negra or you might get intrigued by Cliff Booth or you might get intrigued by Werewolf or whatever other movies are coming out over the next few months.

11:52Sean Fennessey: So I think it's a net positive. But you're right that there are a few movies that were in its crosshairs and they've kind of fell in its wake. Yeah. I mean, so that's what you were saying about. So we're going over 10 billion in box office this year. Is that the prediction? First time since COVID? I think so. I think that's where we're headed. Yeah, certainly. So, like, it's been such an exciting year. And we've had so many Oscar years recently where it's been like, well, Oppenheimer is going to win. It's the box office story or Barbie. And this year there's multiple. There's Gigantic Odyssey.

12:18And then there's Wildwood, like you said, is not probably even going to be a financial success, but like it's doing well enough that it has enthusiasm to it. And I go back and forth on how I think that fits into Oscar narratives, because the highest grossing movie doesn't all rarely wins, honestly. And you don't even like Anora barely made any money. But just really broadly, like, how are you guys thinking about how money is figuring into any of these campaign narratives or if it all cancels itself out because there's so many of them to choose from? this you could have at least at least two right obviously project hill mary and the odyssey but then even like down the list i'm like what if mike michael and obsession are all in the top 10 you're gonna have dune in there these are all big movies that are also good i don't know what the point i'm trying to make this but i do think like these are like it is interesting to me i'm thinking

13:05Sean Fennessey: the same exact way chris i think um it would be only fitting in a year in which it really feels like the box office kind of came roaring back that there'd be five five hundred million dollar movies and best picture. And that's completely in play. That is absolutely in play. I don't know if Obsession is a little on the bubble right now to me, but Dune Part 3 and The Odyssey and Project Hail Mary. And what's the fourth one I'm forgetting? Michael, probably. And Michael, of course. Right. So if you consider, let's just say Michael and Obsession are interchangeable at this point. This is far away from the days of Top Gun Maverick and F1 kind of getting in on the merits of its box office success and not really, you know, and Kraft and not really a whole lot else.

13:42Sean Fennessey: Like those films were awarded because it was like this was really good for the business but now you've got Christopher Nolan and Denis Villeneuve and uh you know Lord Miller all highly respected filmmakers making big commercial movies and you still have your kind of Bohemian Rhapsody-esque Michael experience obsession would be the real indicator of like we're in a whole new academy like if that happens one year after Amy Madigan's win you know after the rise of Jordan Peele like I don't know there's not really any precedent for a movie like Obsession getting into Best Picture in the history of the Oscars it's more like the substance right like to bring it up twice in one episode of this like out bolt from the blue crazy movie that everyone was talking about but it's so it's not French it doesn't have any of those other indicators that you usually think about not a canned premiere not like a you know like the origins of that movie even feel different where Obsession is just like a down and dirty mean spirited independently made horror movie it's a comedy though you didn't hear the Golden Globes of D &D comedy I did hear that But kudos to the folks from Obsession who will get a chance to compete in that category.

14:44That's a whole separate. And Indiana Ready Who Will Lose to Julianne Moore and couldn't have won a drama. But that's, again, a whole separate conversation. I mean, looking through Box Office Mojo, looking at something like Wicker, which is a movie I'm so excited about by finding its audience. It's such a fun, like weird movie with all of its weird marketing things about it. And, you know, it hasn't made as much as Digger yet. and sometimes I think we get annoyed with the way that that people talk so much about like what made money for Warner Brothers and was sinners profitable and all of that stuff but then we're also kind of like choosing our champions and being like well Wicker hasn't made its money back but it's a hit like is there anything unfair about that or does it just make sense with the way that I don't know we look at a relative success of something and if you like it and it's doing better than expected that's enough whether or not it's like a profit I do think there is like an unfair like the way we talk about box office i do think is skews into like did you like the movie i think if people didn't like one battle after another they'd be like that was a big flop i can't believe warner brothers spent so much money on it and it lost like money it did lose money like it made it was a great movie and like it's got the value of the library because it won best picture and it's a pta movie and all these things but it was a money loser but we don't want to talk about that because everybody really loved it and for like a movie like that you don't love you'd be like, oh, screw this.

15:58I do think it is like there is an inherent bias or unfairness in how we talk about these things. To your point, like Wicker is a big hit. Now, Digger is different, I think, in terms of because it costs so much money, right, obviously compared to Wicker. But Digger is going to be like, you know, you're never going to give that movie credit comparatively, I don't think. Maybe eventually, maybe people will. But I do think there is like a little bit of a bias in terms of how we talk about these things.

16:20Sean Fennessey: I think so, too. But I think some of our bias is generational in that when we were kids and we started getting obsessed with the Academy Awards, the films that were winning were typically commercially successful. And then also were able to have these long extended runs through the Oscar season where they were making money. So like Rain Man is the one I always think of where that was the number one movie in the country that year, which is just stunning to think about in retrospect. And now for a movie to be number one in the country, it needs to be more like Dune Part 3 or Spider-Man or, and so like, because those metrics have sort of shifted and we all observed the shift towards what I'll say is like a more independent minded academy, you know, that sort of is more interested in like smaller films, especially in the onset, you know, the aftermath of a film like Moonlight Winning, where it wasn't really about the film that made the most money.

17:07Sean Fennessey: It was about the film that needed the most attention and deserved the most attention. And so I feel like this year is kind of a fascinating conflict in that respect, because you're going to have movies like La Bola Negra and Wild Horse Nine really competing hard for Best Picture that are probably not going to make a lot of money, you know, and I, I, you know, if either of those movies exceeds$10 million in U.S. box office, maybe Wild Horse Nine will do that. I think it depends on how widely it goes. Three Billboards probably did, right? It did, for sure. And that played as a very commercial movie.

17:36Sean Fennessey: But, you know, Banshees was sort of trapped in the Project Popcorn era. And, you know, John Malkovich is not exactly like a box office draw, although that movie is wonderful. So, like, how we think about rewarding a movie with, is like, is it that's what the money is for? Or is it that like, if you can do both, if you can be Dune Part 3 and make a shit ton of money and be the highest level achievement in IP storytelling, is that also worthy of an Academy Award? It's an interesting question to ponder. It's funny that you're saying Dune Part 3 when the Odyssey is right there. We've seen it. And we know that it doesn't.

18:10None of us have seen Dune Part 3. You were saying Rain Man. Mine is always, and it's not even that long ago, King's Speech made more than Thor. I mean, it made like$400 million worldwide. And it's like, that's not even that long ago, but we've obviously changed so much in terms of like what the movies that are making money are now like full IP and like all these things. And so it is a different thing. But like having Odyssey in tune, which I know is IP, is like nice, at least at the top. Can I just throw out, I looked at three billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri, made one hundred and sixty million dollars worldwide.

18:37That is crazy, crazy. I wanted to ask about Lobo and Agra because Netflix is very excited to tell us that they are reporting box office for the first time. It's in limited-ish release. It's not like only in New York and L.A., but it's small enough theaters. It's done really well in Spain where it's not being released by Netflix. It's like a traditional distributor, but more or less hasn't played anywhere else. Do we think it's going to matter if the box office thing about La Bola Negra makes a difference at all in how it's considered in the Oscar race?

19:05Sean Fennessey: I think it will still be identified as a Netflix film. And so we're not quite acculturated to the box office of a Netflix movie. and that's not, we don't quite know how to, like we don't know what the language of that is. And I think Narnia will really be the movie where that is a little bit more coherent because it will have a proper wide release. Even Cliff Booth is only going to be on those IMAX screens for two weeks. So the reporting around it is just not going to be as widespread and we're not going to feel like we have the language for it. But you know, La Bolla Negra is also like an old school Miramax style play and those movies also only would make five, 10, 15 million dollars in theaters in America anyway.

19:41Sean Fennessey: So I think if you use that mentality, I think that's probably fine. It's just, it's a little bit of a like, I don't know where to tell my stepmom to go see that movie. Cause like on Long Island, I don't know where it's playing right now. Yeah, I have no idea. I just looked it up and Shoke a lot made$150 million worldwide. Just really throwing all the old hits out there. I'd love to know what it made in its first two weeks though. Yeah, no, like$10 basically. Yeah, I just, I mean, Chris, we've talked about LaBella Negra a lot. We've been told not to spoil it again. So I'm just going to try to be, I don't think we're going to get into the plot of it at all.

20:15But it feels I think I heard someone from another distributor saying, like, it feels like Netflix trying to get all the credit for going theatrical without actually having to have any risk because no one really cares how much money it makes. And, you know, the industry resentment around Netflix is something we debate in the awards season and never really know an answer to. And I'm curious if some of that will linger around that movie specifically. I feel like it will. But I do think it's interesting to think about, like, the release pattern in terms of the promo for it, because, like, we've seen, like, it's not on Netflix yet, obviously.

20:41But they're all like they're doing stuff. It's just the keeping it as a traditional release, I think, helps with that aspect of it. Because one of the things I think with Netflix is always it feels like they're jamming these things right down. Like they're just really aggressively like promoting these things and jamming them into your face. And sometimes people don't like that for the awards movies, at least because I know they don't actually promote their other movies. They don't really even promote promotion. But for the awards movies, it feels like. Sorry, I'm never going to. I feel like awards movies, it's like, oh.

21:09But having it be like a traditional release, I do think is interesting in that it's like, okay, it's a slow roll. You're kind of doing, they're doing press and doing different things. And I see them doing interviews and screenings and all these things. And I don't think it'll help the resentment that's out there, because I think people are just going to always resent Netflix. But to your point too, in Spain, I think it's like the third highest grossing movie or maybe ever in Spain. Or it's certainly like, it's like very incredible, doing incredibly well in Spain. It's like a lavish big movie. And so like all these things put together, it does feel more theatrical than a lot of their recent awards movies, whether or not that it actually makes any money.

21:45So I think that helps in some ways. I also wish it could play in theaters until February. Like it seems like the kind of, and I have no idea if Netflix would ever do that. Cause you know, I've been assuming that the Odyssey is going to come back again or, you know, Neon can keep artificial as long as they want. But I don't think Netflix has any apparatus for that. Or I don't know if they have any interest in it. It'll just be all FYC screenings.

22:05Sean Fennessey: I think it kind of runs counter to their strategy, right? Which is that seeing it on the service is sort of the primary thing. And we're in the midst of this pretty dramatic shift, right? Where, you know, the announcement that the new Joel Cohen movie will be getting a proper theatrical release in fall of 2027. Unmistakable to me that the theatrical part was included there. And I do think you'll probably see somewhere between six and ten movies next year that get closer to a real four-wall theatrical release. Whether or not they're going to get credit for it yet, probably not. The thing about La Bolanegra is at the risk of sounding really dumb and simple is it's good.

22:39Sean Fennessey: And like sometimes that matters, you know, sometimes what really matters is like that movie moves people and is very powerful and big. And I liked it a lot. And it's the kind of movie that I think if I had more information going in, I might have been more skeptical. But I'm glad I saw it in the way that I saw it. And I can kind of have a pure – the way when I saw you, Katie, and Ken, it was like the last movie that I saw there. and I felt like I had been waiting for a movie like that at my first Cannes Film Festival and I'm glad that I got to see it in that environment. Watching that movie, Amanda and I just talked about this with Possible Love too.

23:11Sean Fennessey: Like I watched Possible Love on the service and I'm like, it doesn't work the same way as seeing it in a movie theater. And I think that Netflix should be conscientious about that when they have these big, sophisticated, sprawling, often international features and how they're letting people see them and seeing them on the big screen is always gonna work better than asking them to fire it up at home while looking down and folding laundry. Well, they have gone out of their way for me specifically, and I'm sure other people read about awards. Like I saw Possible Love at the Netflix screening room.

23:37I saw La Bola Negra there, Gentle Monster. Like they really make sure you see it in that way, which to me, you should say like, well, if you want me to see it that way, why not have everyone see Possible Love in the same way?

23:46Sean Fennessey: Couldn't agree more. I mean, all of a sudden and Possible Love are the two like international movies from like everyone just set aside three hours and somehow make the time. But now that everyone's seeing you can see everything for three hours, like you got the time. We figured it out. Well, no, you have three hours less time. I mean, that's the thing with that movie is like I only have a certain number of hours for screenings per year. And I'm like, now I have to see you can see everything three times to continue to talk about it. It's sophisticated. I want to see it again. I have yet to figure out how to make that happen.

24:15OK, I asked you guys to kind of bring in any other box office stories that are interesting to you at all in terms of like what is or isn't making any money. And again, we've talked about how we have a different standard. It can be a two million hit or a 200 million. Like what what is sticking out to you in terms of what's doing well and how it might affect how we keep talking about it in awards? I mean, I thought of two Pattinson movies just to go back to A24. One is the drama and one is primetime. The drama made so much money. And I'm like, is that going to can that stick? Or I don't know. I don't think it's going to stick around.

24:45But I was like, we've talked about best actress. Certainly, like Zendaya is going to be up for maybe running his lead for Dune. Fascinating. What if she comes? I mean, like, I don't know. I'm just not ready to kill that one yet in my head because I just think it is – it made enough – like, because it made money, and I think you could throw the invite in here too. These movies that made money over the summer, they're all A24 and in primetime into the fall. But I'm like, people saw them and responded to them. And so they didn't just die off like Fjord, which is going to be a struggle, I think, to get like more people – like for these neon movies or even other A24 movies, whatever.

25:18If they kind of really drop off, it's just a struggle to get people to go back to them. But I'm like, we know that these are there. So I think those are interesting stories. Like The Invite is another one where I'm not sure how bullish to be on how well it will do. Like if you told me it got four acting nominations and Best Picture, I would actually not be totally surprised. But at the same time, if you told me it only got like Penelope Cruz and Olivia Wilde, I also would not be surprised. So like but the fact that those made money on a different scale, certainly than like what we're talking about, these other big hits.

25:50But I do think that really helps their cause as we get here into November and December. You know what's crazy is the invite and primetime have made almost exactly the same amount of money domestic,$26 million. And I think the invite gets credited as a hit more than primetime and maybe unfairly like because it was a summer release or because other like indie stuff hadn't come out and done as well. I feel like we talk about the invite as a big hit when it's kind of a medium sized one. And I wonder if at some point someone's gonna be like, wait a second. I like the invite a lot. You just did it. You just did it.

26:19Wait a second. it.

26:20Sean Fennessey: My big brain theory about that specifically is that The Invite is such a millennial film, and we're in this moment of millennials really seizing power, both in politics and in our media that we are creating right now. Did John Ossoff see The Invite? I think he used to rank Best Picture nominees on Twitter. I mean, did he have a night like the two couples in that movie? You know, that's something we'll start asking ourselves in our political climate. But I think there's something about just like, for me personally, The Invite, I don't know if it hit hard, but I was just like, yes. Like I just loved that movie.

26:48Sean Fennessey: I knew exactly what it was attempting to do. I thought it nailed all the beats that it was going for. And it felt, um, situationally relevant, I would say. And a lot of the, the punditocracy that you hear from in podcasts like this is like a bunch of people in their forties who are like, I've been thinking about the Oscars and a movie like this should be in the Oscars. And that comes at the expense of another movie. And that's sort of related to how I'm thinking about stuff like this too, which is, you know, I heard you guys talking about Tender Loving Care recently and a movie like Behemoth. And there's a handful of movies that are still coming in December that in all likelihood are not going to set the box office on fire.

27:24Sean Fennessey: And in years past, those movies, there has always been one or two slots for a movie like that. You know, Sentimental Value didn't make a ton of money in America. But it was a movie that was very strong throughout the entire awards race. And I'm not sure if we have the same thing this year because a movie like Fjord, if you would have asked me in May, I would have said Locke for Best Picture nomination. And now that feels completely in jeopardy. So I'm kind of curious to see if, in fact, the flip side of the case, the movies that you're saying, Katie, that, you know, haven't done very well, but there's some that are still to come.

27:55Sean Fennessey: Like, do they have any chance? Is there like a movement that's going to happen that makes them more relevant? I'm not sure. I've been wondering that about Elsinore, which I don't think is coming out. Good example. Thanksgiving. I lose track on these things. But like, I think I think Andrew Scott gets nominated no matter how much money that movie makes. So we've kind of talked about it as an outside best picture thing. And I think that only happens if there's some energy behind it. And that movie should do well. It is accessible and emotional in a way that Fjord absolutely is not. So if it doesn't catch on, you wonder how much that dings it or how much we just say we like this movie anyway.

28:25We're just going to stick with it. I mean, Elsinore is another one. Like, I'll bring up I Play Rocky a second time. I think I get paid for I Play Rocky references on the pod. I think people write in angrily if you don't bring it up, actually. Elsinore is a movie that if it was like 2010, that's going to make like$150 million. Be the king's speech. You know what I mean? like it would be like a huge hit. I do think that because it is so like old school in that way. And now to your point, yeah, like I have no idea. If you told me it made like$10, I'd be like, that makes sense. But if you told me it did really well, I'd be like, okay, cool.

28:52That's awesome. But I don't know. Sean, you just said there about the, do you think, so then you're saying that millennials in the Academy are, are going to be ascendant this year. No question.

29:00Sean Fennessey: No question. As in politics. And so then that leads, leads me to like, you can see everything in the invite then should be like top, top of the top of the charts here, I think that if they both get in, you can get just I will probably write something very long and stupid about that, because I'm kind of obsessed with this idea now. I've been working through this for the last couple of years. And the way that we were seeing it initially is in our mainstream entertainments. If you look at the the idea that a Masters of the Universe live action movie came out this year is absurd. Like that that's a toy line that inspired a cartoon in 1985.

29:34Sean Fennessey: Like, why is that a movie made for 10-year-olds in 2026? It's because the people who loved it when they were kids now have power. And that is the way that a lot of culture works. And mainstream culture runs downstream into smaller cultures. And if you start to see a bunch of movies made and starring 42-year-olds getting into best picture consistently, you will recognize that like a shift has taken place. Now, maybe it won't happen. There's still a lot of 60 and 70 somethings in the Academy too. And there's still a lot of people obviously who are not living in the United States who don't have the same interests and the board could be shuffled completely.

30:06Sean Fennessey: But that's why I'm a little bit less bullish on obsession and a little bit more bullish on movies like The Invite and The Debut because those feel like movies that are made by a kind of contemporary cohort that have really announced themselves in the last five years. But A24 can't have nine movies in Best Picture either. So we'll see what happens. Well, then let me bring to go back to the box office, Katie. I'm going to bring up your favorite, one of your favorite movies project is project Hail Mary like the platonic ideal of what we're talking about it's a huge box office you gotta do the full take though how does it connect to the midterms Chris well because it's like it is it is a movie that's like beyond millennial cringe because it's like yes it is about how because the movie is really about it's like Obama era hope but like actually the world is fucked we like at the end we're at the end of the world ends like in the movie we see like I'm spoiling project Hail Mary I'm so sorry on the pod here but the movie ends like we do see like the we it does not a big six he succeeds but like at such a cost it's clear like that they're like in an ice age at the end but there's still so much hope in the movie and i do think that's like what this election almost was which is like even in a downtrodden ruined world you could find glimmers of hope and there's no reason to give up and so this is like a millennial movie it is a hope movie and it's a huge hit so is project hill Mary going to win Best Picture.

31:22Is that where I'm at? And the directors are obviously like millennial filmmakers of the highest. I just looked it up. They're Gen Xers, Chris. You can have. They're born in 1975. But I think millennial of spirit, if we're allowed to claim that, I would say so. I think so. And Gosling

31:36Sean Fennessey: is a true millennial star. I mean, he's somebody who millennials really grew up watching and kind of obsessing over. So is this the movie then? Is this it? And it hits all these boxes? No, it's not going to win. But I love I love what you cooked up there. I think it's super special. And I do think it's success. There's something to that. I think, I mean, God, I had not really thought about before how similar it is to Digger in that way too. I mean, they're, they're sort of mapped onto the same ideology. And, you know, another thing that Amanda and I were just talking about is a movie like Wild Horse 9 having maybe not the most optimistic point of view and whether or not a movie needs to have an optimistic point of view to lean into this moment that for the first time politically, if you're a progressive person, you feel a little bit more hope than you have maybe since 2012.

32:24Sean Fennessey: I mean, it's been a long time since people felt like the arrow was pointing in that direction. And of course, that is a component in the Academy Awards and in Hollywood in general, that feeling of are you rewarding something that feels like it is matching the moment? And Project Hail Mary could be that or could actually be seen as too pessimistic. So I'm not sure. Or the Odyssey could split the difference as something that is kind of reckoning with the faults of the past. And honestly, not dissimilar to Way to Wild Horse 9. Someone should write about those two things. But they sail up into a brighter future.

32:51Again, spoiling the end of the Odyssey. I'm so sorry. We really got to set some rules for ourselves. so mad at us. Spoilers for a many thousand-year-old story.

32:59Sean Fennessey: People who haven't seen the Odyssey and Project Hail Mary who consistently listen to this show are deranged. They've made it this far. Why are you listening to this show? I don't know. We're really, we're doing our best here. No offense to them. I just like, those movies made a billion dollars. Please keep listening. We love you guys. But this is a question I ask myself a lot that in 2024. I wrote about this in the newsletter. I'll keep writing it. I was like, oh, God, this election went so badly. How was what is Hollywood going to do? How is this going to affect the Oscars? And the answer is like it didn't.

33:26Nora won Best Picture. It was everyone just didn't want to think about it. And I don't know if that's going to be the same this year. I'll be at the Governor's Awards this Sunday as this is coming out. I'm very curious to see if anyone says anything. Christine Vachon presumably has got some thoughts about how the election went. It might be a shift in that. And I don't know if I agree that Project Hail Mary will win Best Picture, much as I love it. But I think the vibe shift could be real and could affect some things that we maybe don't see yet.

33:52Sean Fennessey: Are there any other movies that hit the vibe shift that like fit the political atmosphere right now? I asked this about artificial. I think I said this to you, Chris. Like, is anyone going to want to see these guys at all? I mean, as I think Andrew Garfield is great in that movie. But are you going to look at that performance and be like, oh, and move on? Same with Digger. Like, we wondered if Digger was going to have a comeback. And I wonder if now its pessimism is going to feel not in step with things. Yeah. You know, it's so funny, Chris, you and I were both at that artificial premiere and I loved that movie.

34:23Sean Fennessey: I thought it was so successful with what it was trying to accomplish. And I did feel like it was meeting a moment. I really felt like it would be it was going to be the most urgent movie in the awards race. And then the astonishing thing about this political result that we got is like in Texas, if that's a blue state and they have shut down the building of more data centers in that state. then all of a sudden our emotional health around the concept of AI and its incursion into all walks of life feels like it's been tempered somewhat. And so that movie suddenly just feels less urgent than it did one month ago when we first saw it.

34:57Sean Fennessey: And then does the movie just not work as well? And is it exactly what you're describing, Katie, where it's like, you know what? I just don't even really want to be around these people. Like that was a blip in history that we're trying to pretend never happened. You know, that's a very kind of bifurcated and an oversimplified way of looking at that issue. But I think you're right that it could have that kind of impact on that movie. This is why I haven't seen Musk yet. Just the same thought process. I will see it someday, but I don't want to spend four hours with him. Sorry, Chris. No, it's funny because Sean's exactly right.

35:26In terms of when that movie, the movie ends with a postscript. I'm spoiling. It literally comes up to September. It's like when you're doing your newsy thing. It's not a spoiler. It just is that's how timely the movie is. And yet now in November and December, it does feel almost dated somehow. It's just, it is a crazy, like, it's just so, it is very crazy to think about. And it's like, it would, if it came out earlier, I know I probably couldn't have it for all these things, but if it did come out earlier, it almost maybe would have been better to have that in the clubhouse and be like, okay, well, we weathered this like vibe shift a little bit, but yeah, I don't know.

35:59I don't know how the people are gonna respond to it. And if they're gonna be as excited about that movie as I thought we were out of the New York premiere, because I thought it was awesome too. I think it's like really good, But now I'm like, I don't know about this at all.

36:11Sean Fennessey: Well, one thing about it in its favor is it's just real mean spirited about these people, you know, which is how a lot of people feel. You know, a lot of people are just like, fuck these guys. You know, what did they think they were trying to get away with? And the movie completely is in tune to that. It is completely if you are skeptical of this moment in technology, then regardless of what the political outcomes have been, it is going to touch that nerve for you in an interesting way. You know what this is great news for? Is the only living pickpocket in New York? Is that a timeless movie? It would play now.

36:40It would play in 10 years. I don't know what else has that. I mean, Elsinore maybe has a similar quality of like not connected to anything in the political reality. Maybe that's what gets the biggest boost out of all this. Or maybe it's just the Odyssey. Maybe we're all just like, that's it. Well, isn't that what we've been saying since July is maybe it's just the Odyssey and we've made months. I've still got it at number one.

37:01Sean Fennessey: I do too. I mean, I think we all do, right? Me too. I do. Wait, so as this episode is coming out, Sean, I know they're doing a bunch of Odyssey, like relaunch award season stuff this week. Are you going to be there watching Robert Downey Jr. moderating or any of this stuff? Yeah, I'm going to go on Wednesday and see the movie again. I saw it twice when it was released and then haven't seen it since. So I look forward to seeing it again on 70 millimeter and listening to all the participants talk about it. I love that movie when it came out. There's a lot of movies I love this year. You know, I try to like as much as I can because that's my experience of viewing movies.

37:33Sean Fennessey: But I was pretty blown away by that film. And now it has become this sort of like, oh, well, is Nolan going to win again? Or is that all that exciting? And I got to remind myself of what it was like in July when it hit and how powerful it was and how beautifully crafted it was and his adaptation being what it was. And so I think we're going to hear a lot about that. So, yeah, I'm going to go on Wednesday and hopefully I dig it just as much as I did in July. Yeah, I think they've done a really good job of laying low for the right amount of time and are coming roaring back right before the governor's awards.

38:02They're doing all these screenings. I'm also going to try to see it in 70. I didn't get to see it in 70 the first time. So there'll be my chance to revisit. And yeah, Chris, you'll be in L.A. for some of this, too. Everyone should look out for all of us. We'll be pounding the pavement at FYC events of choice.

38:17Sean Fennessey: Are you both going to the Governor's Awards? Only me. Chris is coming to town to do an Angler event. OK. But well, I don't know. We'll get to see all the FYC board culture in L.A. Like I haven't been back yet in the fall. And it teaches you so much about how hard everyone is working for things. I'll tell you, in my neighborhood, a new billboard, like literally a billboard display, was built and was displaying a billboard for Wild Horse 9. Is it for you? Is it like how studio execs have billboards aimed directly at them? I'll tell you what. It's down the street from Vidiots in Eagle Rock, which is a theater that I frequent and has become a bit of a hub for the Eastside film community.

38:55Sean Fennessey: and something that I've been begging for for 10 years is happening, which is like a part of the awards apparatus is shifting eastward. And for the longest time, it has had strongholds in Beverly Hills and all the way on the West side. And now the LA awards community is getting larger, which is cool. I did some Q &A to the List of the List 3 last year. But because like anytime I interview people, millennials ascended, anytime I interview someone roughly our age in the business, They're all on the east side. Like it's the more Academy members that there are. Well, I'm really excited that you got a personal FYC billboard.

39:31I feel like that's how you know you've made it in the business when they're buying outdoor advertising for you.

39:35Sean Fennessey: I can't claim independent viewership of that billboard, but I like the idea of being catered to. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Well, everyone look out for us in L.A. Sean, thank you for coming on to talk about all this. Wait, before I throw to the interview, have either of you guys seen Clarissa or Mouse? Sofio Canedo, truly terrific in both of these films. Yes, I saw Clarissa. I have not seen Mouse yet. Clarissa was beautiful. Yeah. I've also not read Mrs. Dalloway, so it was a little bit confusing to me. I've seen The Hours, which I thought was the same thing and is not, which I learned most of them while watching Clarissa.

40:07Yes, well, I got to talk to Sofia Canino about both of those films, so now you can hear it.

40:14Holiday drinks are now at McDonald's. Like the new Red Bull Frosted Cranberry Energizer,

40:20Sean Fennessey: it's Red Bull meets cranberry flavors topped with cold foam and sprinkles made to charge your holiday spirit. Now at McDonald's. If you don't mind me starting with just some real unvarnished praise, I was going back and looking at the last 10 years of credits, and you have been in, I think, five of the best female-driven, independent, fascinating films from fascinating directors that I've seen in the last decade. I mean, going back to Wild Rose and now this year with Malice and Clarissa. And I know as an actor that you cannot guarantee a movie is going to turn out great, but there's just some great taste being demonstrated.

40:55And I wonder if it has felt that way to you, too, that you've been on this great streak of these fantastic indie movies. You know, I don't really look back much. So I didn't I did notice the last couple of years that I was like from Janet Planet, the last three, you know, that I was really. And that was a kind of conscious effort because I have, you know, over the years been attached to quite a few. But because I've either run out of money or I've had to take on money, you know, I've had to take a job. What happens is that they're about to go and then they don't go and they're about to go and they don't go.

41:27And really, if you want to really do those movies, you kind of have to just stop working. You know, so which you can't always afford to do. So, I mean, certainly, you know, for Clarissa, I had to really get some time. And, you know, it's because it kept going and then falling apart again. So that's really why, you know, my preference would be to do these sort of movies all the time. Well, has it been kind of luck that these projects have come together instead of falling apart the way they so often do? or have you kind of made yourself be more patient and say, okay, I will wait six months. I will see if I can do this.

42:09Yeah, I stayed unemployed for quite a long time. So yeah, I stayed out of work. So yeah, that is definitely part of what happened. And then also you get a bit of luck that it just happens at the right time. But yeah, I didn't work very much for a couple of years other than doing these. So yeah. Was that for Clarissa and Mal specifically? Yeah, more for Clarissa. The Mal's happened actually a year before. But it's been a bit delayed coming out. And so now it coincides that they are both coming out together, which is kind of a happy accident, I feel. Because they're both low-budget films and independent films.

42:46And actually, the conversation about both of them helps each other, I think. Oh, absolutely. Well, and having, so Mouse premiered at Berlin. And then a few months after that, you have Clarissa at Cannes. So you kind of have this spring of these big, beautiful European film festivals where you have these tiny movies kind of getting onto that big stage. and I don't know if you can avoid psyching yourself out ahead of something like that, but how do you prepare for a moment like that knowing that so many years of work and waiting are going to be out in the world within a few months like that? I mean, I didn't know that was going to happen.

43:16I mean, the sort of Berlin, we got in and then I just didn't, I had no idea about the reception it would take and I think when you just get, when you've been around for quite a long time, you don't really sort of anticipate how anything's going to happen because nothing happens how you think it's going to happen and that's just life And so there's just no point really thinking ahead. You know, normally what happens with me is I think, well, we got to the end of the movie, we've wrapped. And so far, it's a wrap. We've got it in the can. Brilliant. And tick, we've done that. Anything else that happens is extra.

43:51Do you know what I mean? And then when it got into Berlin with Mouth, I was like, oh, absolutely fantastic. Some people are going to see it. On top of having made it, now some people are going to see it. And then reception we had when we got there, and then consequently the reviews afterwards we were it was just like one big party we were just sitting around all of us in the in the um we were all staying in the same hotel and we all we basically commandeered the lobby as our kind of office and we were all just shouting out when things came in and you know the the team on mouse so it's it was an ensemble way of working and really the kind of whole experience right until sort of berlin until now it feels very ensemble from the producers to the writer to the directors to the actors.

44:34They all work as a kind of, we're all in on it all, all the time. There's no sort of separation, which has been also wonderful. That sounds like the old-fashioned, the way you think about when Broadway shows open, that they would all go to a restaurant and kind of wait for the newspaper reviews to come in. That's what it sounds like, you guys in the hotel in Berlin. Because you know what? I don't normally read reviews. and I definitely don't read them when I'm doing stage work. No way, it's not useful at all. But I got so caught up in it with it all and we were all having such a good time that I just thought, well, you know, why not?

45:11And I think also I'm more invested in them when you do an independent movie because you are quite reliant on a kind of word of mouth and things getting out there, you know. And also like selling it to a distributor and things like that, you know, it's kind of someone buying it. those things you know we hadn't it wasn't sold when we were in berlin so you know or whatever the expression is i don't even know i'm so not technical about filmmaking but like yeah yeah well i was also thinking that about about janet planet or like katherine called birdie which you read a few years ago where you have kind of these smaller supporting roles and in and mouse and especially in clarissa like you are a central figure of like you said these movies that have to get sold they have to find an audience for that and it's a big responsibility but obviously also was so exciting.

45:55I've been waiting for a long time for that to happen. I mean, my goodness me, I mean, people often think I've played loads of leading roles and I'm like, I really haven't. I really haven't. I just shout from the back and hope people will notice. But yeah, no, I haven't. And my goodness me, it's taken a lifetime career really to get to the place now. And I'm just enjoying every minute you know and I've really walked a long path to get here so you know I've done a lot of leading roles in theatre but it's been much slower for it to happen in film and there's never a moment where you say like oh wow I wish it was someone else's job to sell this I don't want to have to be have all this be on me not at all because and I was just saying I was just saying to a couple of the guys years are saying can you imagine I mean I I haven't been I've never done this sort of thing like this you know and when I was younger and things were going say like even with Hotel Around it was a much smaller uh kind of circuit of going around it was nothing like what I've just gone through in the last couple of weeks and I'm just like I can't imagine um doing a film that you don't like you know I mean these are two projects that I love so much that I would go to the end ends of the earth for both projects separately they're my I if I could look back on my life up until this point these are my two favorite things I've done and for them to just be in the same circuit and then it's just crazy it's like a crazy time it's really um I don't really get like I was thinking the other day I was yesterday I was doing a you know one interview after the other on those kind of um zoom things and the time went really quickly and I remember doing this before and you know i've done this on a couple of shows and i've been not not into it but just it's neither here nor there and it come it really drags and then the day went like that because i felt always there was something fresh to talk about because my experiences had been so big in my life with mouse and with clarissa that i didn't i can't well maybe ask me in a month and i'll be bored of talking about them but i'm not bored talking about them at the moment yeah that's great well i got to at can i got to talk to you and arian chuko the directors of clarissa and David Oyelowo.

48:12And I loved your kind of answer to a question I asked about working with these directors who had made one film previously, but you didn't know them before. They're fairly young as filmmakers. And you kind of said like, well, if it doesn't go right, then whatever, nobody dies. You may as well take the risk, which is such a great attitude, but I'm not sure that many people have it. I wonder how long you have felt that way about it. You've redescripted, it's great. And you say, okay, okay. So how did that happen? It comes with age. And also you get a sort of a perspective you know I think when you're younger you feel like you've kind of got to get somewhere and do something and then I don't remember when it really happened I mean I've always had a bit of that attitude if I'm honest I mean because I do know people that right at the top end of their game that still feel that they have to crazily go on this sort of treadmill all the time and everything's life or death um how I choose where I put my energy in my art in what I do is a utmost importance that is really high but the outcome of it is lower if that makes sense yeah when that i assume that there's something when you meet these directors you haven't worked with before in the case of both of these films and say you know we'll see what happens in three months but right now i see something in you that makes me trust you and say that we can do something together and two of them so so with clarissa i'm i met shuka and ari on um like in two 2021 like quite a long time ago and um on in that meeting they took they talked about several things and they'd reached out saying you know we really love what you do and we've watched you for a lot many years and we'd like to work with you and and then they sort of proposed they hadn't he said they said at the time we have this idea about doing um an adaptation of virginia wolf's mrs dalloway and reimagining it in nigeria and i immediately went i'm doing it that that was i didn't even think and that's part of my good quality and sometimes it can get me into trouble I often just have a very quick instant result the instant an instant sort of response to something and um that was my response actually Chico has said since I thought they hadn't got a script then but Chico said he had written the script but it wasn't ready to show me and then about within a year they came back with this script but I'd already said I wanted to do it I mean I don't know when in my lifetime I'd get a chance to work in Nigeria and to be doing a film there a kind of art house film there which I was presuming it was going to be that you know sort of thing and then I also had watched their first movie um which I thought was incredible so it wasn't like totally blind you know I could see they were they were um directors to watch with oh yeah I mean straight away from the first movie it's like you know again it's a piece of art you know it really is fantastic and um and right sort of thing that I love so and then um with uh with Mouse I just the script was already fully formed and they sent sent me as an offer and I hadn't watched um Ghost Light at that point and I as much as possible I tend to just read scripts cold I kind of don't like knowing too much about who and what when I read them because I just want to see does the story hold and then if it doesn't quite hold then I might start asking questions in case it's going to get better later on or something like that but on both these occasions I read Mouse and I read it in one go and I'm a very slow reader and I've got a very very poor attention span.

51:56So if I read something in one go, it's usually because it's really good. And then immediately got to the last page and I rang up my agent's like, I'm going to do it. And he said, well, you need to watch one of their films. And I just know. So both of those had an immediate response. And then I watched Ghost Line. I was like, oh my God, I'm in heaven. These directors are, these two directors are fantastic. And it's weird because they're both coupled. I mean, Chico and Ari. Well, I was, or brothers, yeah. I was going to ask you if there's something about co-directors who are family to each other in different ways that, I don't know, makes a movie work better or makes them more fun to work with or anything.

52:32I don't know. I mean, I think script is all. That's me. I mean, the starting point, if you've got a fantastic script like these two, I mean, Chico, and also in both pairings, one of them is the writer and then they both direct. Sometimes you get a pair and one's the writer, and one's a director, but they both direct in both pairings and one is a writer in both pairings. So they're such a kind of mirror of both films. I have no idea whether it makes it better or worse, but, you know, you started off with a golden script and so you've got every chance to then do something. And that will always attract good actors, you know, if you want to cast them, you know.

53:12I'm imagining you getting the script for Mouse and saying it's okay, it's about teenage girls, it's in North Little Rock, Arkansas. like where am I in this? Because you're playing this character, this woman who has found herself in Arkansas kind of entirely by accident and has made a life for it, but is this outsider. And just curious about that process of reading something that is, you know, outside. I assume you've never been to Arkansas before. Maybe you have. But that it's, you know, it's a different world. You know, Legos, I want to talk about Clarissa, but for Mal specifically, as you're reading this, how do you find yourself fitting into it and figuring out how this woman got here?

53:42That's the kind of fantastic thing about Kelly's script is I thinking, because I didn't ask anything about it beforehand. I said, no, no, I'm just going to read it cold. And I started reading and I was thinking, oh, right, this will be maybe a coming of age. I didn't know, you know, what coming of age story, what's it going to be. And then I saw my character come in and I thought, what's going to happen here? You know, I didn't even know what was going to happen to my daughter at that point. I'm reading it and then that happened. I thought they're going to be the main, that's the main character.

54:12So every turn on this, I just wasn't expecting. this relationship to form between her, between Helen and Minnie, is the most unlikely of friendships and relationships in the movie. And you think it's going to be one or the other, the kids together or something like that. And I didn't expect the movie to be about what it was about, which is what makes it so beautiful and huge in its scope. Well, the relationship that you're saying is so unexpected, but it also feels so much like any adults who anyone grew up around, you know, reminds me of my friends' moms from when I was in high school. So I wonder if you felt that too, you know, you're surprised by it, that there's a universality in the dynamic between some of these people.

54:56Yeah, I think the universality is there probably in the themes. I wasn't, it was quite different from my childhood, so I didn't relate to it in that way. but I wasn't really in fact I think Helen's probably the furthest away from me of any character I've played she's really really far from me she was much further not Clarissa who's in this like beautiful fancy world in Legos Clarissa is my age looking back on her life wondering if she's made the right choices and that is something when you get to my age is a thread that runs through. You know, you make these decisions when you're younger that seem so small and not consequential.

55:49And then they have huge consequences to your life and the path that you choose. And they don't seem at the time, you know, I wore a red jumper or a blue jumper. And then also just the thoughts that she has and the going back in time, rethinking of a moment. that's where I'm at that age. So I really relate to that. Yeah. I don't, I didn't grow up in that sort of household. I didn't grow up in Lagos. I mean, my father's from this. I didn't have that experience, but that I really relate to. Whereas Helen felt very different, very different from me. I mean, I always use myself. You know, everything I do, I use myself and then things occur.

56:30I mean, I find it really hard to intellectualize how it's all happening, but. um like acting like how performances happen yeah um I sort of know the kind of route the routes I take I'm not particularly I don't have habits that I always do I it's kind of different every time but um you know I was theater trained I've done theater all my life so where I can the script is the bible so I start from that place with the script very very closely when and with as much time as I have and work my main my main job is to ask as many questions so I understand what's happening in the script and then work out how that person ended up where she did right now when the film starts you know and that's usually where I start from yeah um what was the learning curve for you of of knowing this place that's in mouse because it's so similar to how I grew up like that world and that time period is very familiar to me and it's so spot on and I believe I think Kelly O'Sullivan has said it's where she grew up.

57:31But what was that learning curve for you? And maybe for Lagos, the same thing, but, you know, winding up in Arkansas and saying, I got to understand how this place works. I had to ask Kelly, and you've reminded me, I had to ask Kelly a lot of questions about because even though she's an outsider, Helen, and she has still been there for like 20 years or 18 years. So she is familiar with it now. So I had to ask a lot of questions about the school system, about what she's doing on the parents committee. You know, what her role would be, what that meant. You know, what's the senior year? I mean, I didn't know any of those things.

58:03Yeah. Homecoming. What is this party happening in a gym? She sent me loads of things about homecoming. You've reminded me, you know, and I looked online and then, but my kids actually, because particularly my youngest, they grow up with American culture in England. So as soon as I mentioned Homecoming and Senior Year, they all knew and they were like, watch this movie, watch this, watch this television show. That will explain it. Well, so another thing that's great about seeing these two movies of yours together, so the world of Mouse is very familiar to me. The world of Clarissa, not at all. I don't know anything about Legos, but both of those worlds feel so alive.

58:40I feel like I have been to both of those places. And I think that Legos, you said you had family from there, but hadn't spent time there. And what kind of immersion do you do in a place like that to help all that come alive through your performance too. Yeah, I had to do quite a bit there, actually. I got a bit of a fright because I hadn't been there for like over 20 years. And also even the Lagos that they are describing in the script wasn't the Lagos that I remembered from when I was young. It's changed so much, like these emerging cities. They change so much, you know. you know which you go to say Bangkok now to Bangkok 30 years ago it's like you know or anywhere they really they change a lot so it's it I didn't recognize it so I actually just got on a plane and um I Chuko was there staying living with his mum like in Lagos and um Ari was in New York and I just got a plane over there and stayed with them um just to kind of you know get reassociate myself and you know one of the things they said when I went out when I was when I first sort of got involved in this film I I said to Chuko you know I I have quite a an estranged I was estranged from my family there and I don't I have a relationship that I don't know if I really know um Nigeria well enough you know I don't know what's it's been a big gap you know I didn't grow up there and my I was brought up by my mother and so it's a kind of it's a sticky area for me I don't know what how I'll be able to do it and he said don't worry if nothing else I'll we will bridge that for you and so one of the things that really appealed to me about this whole film is just on a personal level I thought oh I'm going to go on a sort of voyage here of discovery and yeah it I mean I could get emotional talking about it it lived up to that and more and we got to create some art all along the way so even if it just the kind of the journey of the last few years to getting it made I it was so fulfilling in such a kind of meaningful and deep way which is not this is not the time and place to describe why or no one's really interested anyway other than me but that was it was um i'd already kind of won you know i already had everything yeah that's how we started filming so starting a film from that place it's just like you're in the wonderment every day you know it's just fantastic yeah like you've gotten something from to start with and then you can only because i got very comfortable at Shuko's mum's house.

1:01:27And then for the filming, I just didn't move into the hotel. I just stayed there the whole time, which was great because, you know, I got to really eavesdrop on their conversations about how they were going to shoot and stuff like that. And I never, I'm not technical. I don't even ask what lens people are using. If you could see how I'm on set, considering how many years I've been doing it, it's amazing how little I know. Because I'm usually just in this world of doing the acting thing. And it's not like I'm method-y or anything. I'm not particularly, but I do stay in a sort of energetic thing about just having a sort of sense of what's happening on the set.

1:02:03And I don't stay in character in particular, but I do keep some energy around me so that I can let it all out on action. And so I don't really get into asking technical questions or, you know, stuff like that. And I'm not very technical in my real life. and I never watched things back or anything like that. But this time I was sort of listening in and it was interesting because it's on film, it's on 35mm. So you don't have time to, you can't keep saying, oh, sorry, let's just jump over there. It's this precious commodity that's so expensive. It was really interesting hearing how they were going to do things and I got a sense of, it was so lucky that I was there because I got a sense of what they might need from me and all I wanted to do was facilitate.

1:02:47That's all I wanted to do is facilitate the story. you know yeah did it make you want to get more technical on future projects and ask about lenses now that you've had that uh insight into it well maybe because you know i am actually learning a little bit about so much more because i'm not a cinephile at all i don't know what i do with my spare time but i seem to waste a lot of it just looking out the window like i'm doing now but but like um i don't know i'm people always think because of my british accent i'm going to be more intellectual than i am they always think i'm better red than i am and i am none of those things i'm gonna say it right now and i work in a kind of visceral instinctive way um i don't know how i manage to do the things i do sometimes because i wasn't particularly good at school or anything you know and i left quite early so you know to all those that they're out there it's a learning experience yeah yeah well every time you go make a film i mean even you know traveling this place you've never been before you're learning right yeah i have an instinctive reaction to scripts like it's an instinctive thing and sometimes when i'm asked even in interviews describe why when i don't sometimes find it hard i'm learning now on this this this uh press tour of how to speak eloquently but it's i just instinctively know when something feels correct and sometimes it doesn't which means that sometimes i feel like i'm pretty rubbish in things where i don't really believe i've got a really quick bullshit um you know thing so if i I don't really believe in something.

1:04:11I think it shows in my face because my face reveals everything. And so I find it hard to say crap lines. And when I do, I look crap. That's why you've got to keep making really good movies. Yeah, please. That's the only key to do it. You've got to send them to me first. I'm not sure that I'm a boxer. What do you call it? When bankable, you know, when they have to have a name or something. Oh, sure. So I'm not really at that place, you know. Well, I was going to end, though, by congratulating you because the Gotham nominations came out. It's the first awards of the season. Clarissa did extremely well with that.

1:04:47So who knows where that takes it? But, you know, it came out at Cannes. It got great reception at Cannes, but it's been six months. You're kind of sitting there wondering, where is this movie going to go? I wonder what that boost feels like of saying, oh, wow, this is landing. It hasn't come out yet, but it's got this attention that you would hope for. Yeah, I have no idea how the film companies like Neon and how they work. I have no idea how it works. But when they say, come and do the interviews, I just get there and do it, you know. But yeah, it feels like a real boost to get that, to get the nomination, which feels like for movies like this, it's quite important.

1:05:24Otherwise, you don't hear the conversation doesn't happen. And for Mouse, too, to get in that movie category, it feels really important because we don't have a huge machine on mouse behind us, you know. And so you really need people to be talking about it. People like you. Well, I'm doing my part, I promise.

1:05:49That does it for today's episode. This podcast is edited by Brett Fox and produced by Brett Fox and me. Our theme music is by Dave Gonzalez. Subscribe to the Prestige Junkie newsletter at theankler.com and subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget there's a video version that you should watch if you're not already. We'll see you next week.

1:06:15All new holiday drinks are now at McDonald's. Like the Frosted Cranberry Splash with Sprite, the Red Bull Frosted Cranberry Energizer, and cookie butter coffees. Tis the season for seasonal drinks at McDonald's. We'll be right back.