Fall Movie Preview Part 1 with Joyce Eng, Plus Jane Schoenbrun on Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma

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1:14We'll be right back. looking ahead at the movies that are coming in the fall and the releases from earlier in the year that will be part of awards season. Joining me to do this for all five weeks will be my colleague, Chris Rosen. Chris, it's the season. We're excited. Let's go. You ready? I love this time of year. It's the best. It is the best. And I think probably agreeing with that is our guest for this week, Entertainment Weekly's own and our beloved returning guest, Joyce Ng. Joyce, do you also love this time of year? I do, but beloved. Oh my gosh. Really? Beloved by all. I would say. Probably not by all, but I'll take it.

1:53Everyone has haters. Only nice comments, please. So we're going to be kicking off our series today with Joyce talking about the major studios that are part of the awards conversation. And because it's 2026, that doesn't leave us a whole lot of companies to talk about. We'll be getting into reigning champ Warner Brothers, Paramount in the news, Disney Universal, as well as Sony. And then after we do all of that, you will hear my conversation with Jane Schoenbrunn, the director of Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma, a title we'll be talking about in a few weeks in our fall previews, not a major studio release, but a really great one.

2:27So stick around for all of that. Welcome to the show. Okay, Chris, this is the most exciting time of year. We're hearing rumors about festivals. We got all of our festival lineups, but we're going to be talking about a lot of movies that are not going to any festivals because they are from major studios. But I still feel like this is kind of the right way to start looking at the fall. The studios are, in theory, what the Oscar race is all about and kind of ascendant right now, right? Like Warner Brothers is the reigning champ. Studios are maybe more relevant in the Oscar race than they've been in like a decade, maybe?

2:57They're back. Studios are back, is that what we're saying? I mean, sure, I think we could say that. Yeah, why not? And like you said, like Warner Brothers, reigning champ, and a lot of interesting, we're seeing here from studios, especially the ones we'll talk about, like interesting projects that I feel like are either big epic swings or kind of like question marks or whatever. And I feel like that's all from last year with Warner Brothers, where you saw like one battle in Sinners as like we had gone through the IP wars and now we're kind of still doing those IP wars, but maybe there's occasion for big scale movie making that could break through.

3:29So that's where we're at right now. Yeah. Joyce, you really, we gave you kind of your pick of topics and you went for the studios right away. What's got you interested in the studios these days? It was just the timing because obviously everyone is Odyssey-pilled right now. So why not? We'll get to the Odyssey. I know Chris and I talked about it on the podcast relatively recently, so we'll save it for last. But I think we agreed that we should start with our reigning champions, Warner Brothers, who, I mean, their year has been a little dodgier than last year. It feels safe to say. You didn't like Wuthering Heights or Supergirl?

4:03I mean, Wuthering Heights is, I put it on our list to discuss because I do think like ruling it out for some stray Oscar craft nominations is not out of the question. But yeah, it's been a rough road and really they have like two huge things on the horizon, but it's a little shakier, right? Yeah, I mean like I don't want to turn this into a Mets pod, but I was like, it does remind me like last year. Yes, you do. Well, I do a little bit. But last year was like the perfect dream year for Warner Brothers, right? Like Mike DeLuca, Pam Abdi, they had all this, everything they did felt like it hit, right?

4:35In different ways. They had all these hits, won battle wins. They have sinners as well. And then also like weapons, like, man, they had a great year. And then this year, it feels like the year for, it's slowly becoming the year from hell, I would argue. Like, you know, like - The Mets are way worse than Warner Brothers. The Mets are way worse than Warner Brothers. The Mets don't have a Dune Part 3 looming in the horizon, right? There's like, exactly. Like, so we still have to see how the whole year plays out. The Mets are not making the playoffs. No. Warner Brothers still make the playoffs. To this point, it's been a little rough.

5:02And like, I think Wuthering Heights is like, definitely was a hit. certainly like globally I think it made over like 250 million or whatever it did and like and I think you're right like maybe some crafts and people did like that at the time but like a lot of misses since and like even that critically was not a big hit and so and then the movies they have coming up like we're going to talk about like Digger boy I'm really excited for it but that could go either way right like that has the biggest variance I feel like of a lot of the movies we'll talk about where it could be the greatest thing or holy cow it's gonna be the most divisive and so that.

5:34And then you have Dune Part 3 where I'm excited for that as well. But like again, the expectations are so high that I wonder if it could hit it. So I think it's an interesting year for Warner Brothers, especially after the success last year. And yeah, like so far from what they've released, I'm not that confident in anything sticking around of these car movies, including like none of these. But then we'll see like in the fall what happens with Digger. You're saying none of these including Digger in Dune Part 3? No, no. None of them so far I think would even would register to me as like a serious awards contender.

6:05No disrespect to those movies. But I do think like Digger and June are there. But no love for the bride, Chris. No love for the bride. No love for bride. Remember when the bride was supposed to open last September? Would have been an interesting way for them to get buried it under one bottle after another and then just walked away and pretended to never happen, which they kind of did with Wuthering Heights. So, Chris, you and I have talked about Digger plenty over the last couple of weeks because we keep talking about Tom Cruise. but Joyce, we haven't talked to you about it. Where, now that we've seen the trailer, it's not going to Venice.

6:35You said it's going to be the most divisive, which seems like a fair take. Where are you on Digger right now? It's coming out October 2nd in Warner Brothers, we should say. I don't know what to do with it because, I mean, I think it can still get into picture, but I would not be surprised if it missed, you know? Like, if Dune Part 3 is the only Warner Brothers representative in picture. But what I find fascinating about the whole campaign, I guess, for Digger right now is like how everything is just a celebration of Tom's career. Like that's like that first trailer they put out that was three minutes of other Tom Cruise movies.

7:16Yeah, like the trailer is a retrospective of your star's career. And I just don't know, like, if that's the right tactic to take when you're trying to get him his first competitive Oscar. Okay. Tell me more. Well, because it's like, you're, you know, like, people want him to win one, obviously. But it's also like, the best actor is the most stacked of the acting races this year. For sure. And it's like, I don't know if it's smart to position him, like, not as underdog. Because if you're just, like, glazing his career right off the bat, and then you have, like, Matt Damon here, you know, and Aaron's like, oh, he can win for this.

7:55it's and like like he's I guess you could say he's the front right now because like that's a movie everyone's seen and you want to take down the big dog it's like but you can't say like Tom Cruise is the underdog here when you're just like releasing a three-minute trailer of his entire career and be like feel bad for this guy give him an Oscar you know um and then I I find like the some of the parallels fascinating to 11 years ago when we also had Matt Damon trying to get home and another divisive AGI movie. This is my entire theory of the world right now. With an overdue actor, you know, going for his first Oscar with a, you know, transformative in a different way type of performance.

8:37And he ended up winning. But do you think like that's a, do you feel like the Academy is different enough where Leo would have won? In this Academy, does Leo win for Revenant? In 2026? Yes. Interesting. Who do you think wins instead, Chris? Does Matt Damon win that year? I don't know. I mean, who knows? Like, maybe. But like. I mean, they snubbed Ridley in director. True. Yeah. I think that it's interesting, like, to what you were saying. It reminds me a little of, and I think I, Katie, I might have said this in our text chain with Joe Reed and Chris File, former guests and friends. Or it reminds me so much of like Sam.

9:10And again, we haven't seen it. Maybe it's going to be the greatest movie ever. And I hope it is. But it reminds me a little of like Sam Jackson as well for Piano Lesson where it was like. Oh, remember Piano Lesson? Well, yeah, because you kind of like went into the season where like he just won an honorary Oscar a few years before. It is like a career honor. We love Sam Jackson. He's done so many great things. Maybe should have won for Pulp Fiction instead of Martin Landau, whatever you want to debate. Has other performances maybe he could have been nominated for. And like it was like, oh, we're going to give like the career achievement Oscar to Sam Jackson.

9:38And then people saw the movie and they're like, eh. And then he kind of just slowly kept falling off. And like Kieran Culkin became like ascendant even before it was clear that like Sam wasn't going to make it. It just became like, oh, this is the movie people like. And I do think with like Matt Damon kind of has the same narrative as Cruise, but it hasn't been hammered as much already. And he's already an Oscar winner. Right. But I mean for acting, you know what I mean? Like he has that like same narrative where it's like we never – he's never won for acting and like he's this great star and like it would be great to have him win.

10:06And now he almost feels like the underdog even though the Odyssey is going to make like 1.5. Matt Damon is like the underdog? I mean a little compared to Cruise only because like – He doesn't have a trailer touting his career. And he also has the proven commodity. Like, right now. I know. I know. I'm just saying. People actually like him. I know. Now, I would say Matt is the frontrunner in July. Yes. When we're recording this. Yeah. So. Yeah. But I, so I'll be curious to see. And like, the movie could be great. And like, I could see in terms of both the Oscar narrative and like the movie narrative why they're doing the Tom Cruise thing, because it's like, this is not IP.

10:37It's an original movie. It's strange. So we want to be like, hey, people, you know, Tom Cruise, you love all these movies. Give this one a shot. Like, that's how they're going to try to get people to come see it in the movie theater, right? Like, so I understand, like, the career retrospective for Tom Cruise from, like, a butts-in-the-seats perspective. But I'll be curious to see how that translates as an Oscar campaign and what they do once people see the movie. And if it's going to skip all the festivals, that could be good. Like, that's what One Battle did, and, like, it works. So maybe they're going to try to run that same playbook.

11:06Yeah. Yeah, I mean, when thinking about them skipping Venice, like, I think we were talking about this, Chris, with some other people about, like, well, Bardo premiered at Venice and that kind of scarred everybody for life. So maybe that was a reason not to do it, but it does feel like more of Warner Brothers saying like, look, this worked out. We had a huge star. We've got a huge star this time. Like it made sense to me that they would do that. Joyce, did you see that as like a sign of strength or a sign of weakness or neither? I think neither. I mean, I'm not shocked at skipping. I don't know.

11:31I don't know why some people are shocked. That's my take on it. It was like, I wanted to see Tom Cruise on a gondola. Yeah, but it's just like, I don't know. I didn't expect it to hit. It just felt like it was just always going to open, just like it was going to do the same playbook as One Battle. You know, we're going to skip this. And, you know, we have like proven people, you know, like big names and like prestige names too. And, you know, and we're just going to open it. This is one thing I think will be curious too for us to see. If you remember back to last year, which I know is so impossible, but like we, One Battle didn't go to any of the festivals, like we're just saying.

12:06but it's screened like right before TIF. You remember this Katie, right? Right, the Friday of TIF. Joyce, you went. I went and people were there with their suitcases. And they were gonna go like David Earl Wright was going to - To be able to go. Yes. And so like when you got to TIF then, almost everybody I spoke to was like - This TIF is fine, but you know what's great? One battle. I remember talking to like Kyle Buchanan at like a party and it was like, he was like, it's so great. And like Sean Penn's gonna win and like all this crazy stuff that ended up being true. And you know, like that really helped the buzz.

12:35So I'll be curious to see with this. I guess you should start screening it early September. I'll be curious to see if it's... If it is really good, that is exactly what they will do. And then they're going to kind of come... They'll be in the conversation without having to go to the festivals. It'll be in the festival conversation without having to be there. Because, like, everyone's... Like, yeah, it's already in the conversation. So now, like, the next phase is just people seeing the whole movie. Yeah. And embargo time. Like, there's also the thing of, like, the social reactions to One Battle Last Future.

13:04Because people were being... When did they just drop it? I don't remember that part of it as well. It was like a couple days later. Like, while Tiff was still happening? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. It was the first week of Tiff. So we'll see if they do that again. Like, that's probably a good sign for this. But if Digger is divisive, which like, it's like every Inuridhi movie has that. And it's trying to do Dr. Strangelove. Like, it is hitting such a tight line. Can't you guys just, like, picture the anonymous Oscar voters next year just being like, what the fuck was this? I didn't get it at all. I turned it off.

13:36Like, can't you just picture that? Yes, yes. But I think that helps. To me, like, that also, I agree with you. It's going to have its shooters. It will have, definitely be, it'll be like, I could see the Vulture headline that it's the Oscar villain, like, all these things, right? Like, it feels like we're gearing towards that. That said, that's for picture. I still think, I mean, like, unless it's, again, like, I would expect it to get nominated for, like, picture and director. That would prevent it maybe from winning. And I think that divorces Cruz from it a little bit because, like, he could still win as best actor, even if the movie is divisive.

14:05You know what I mean? Like, but whether it would go all the way and win Best Picture again for Warner Brothers seems like maybe more of a reach just because we're assuming it'll be very divisive. Now, maybe it'll be like everybody loves it and it's great. And yeah, but like this, this day we've had more of the, the, the connection between picture and the lead acting winner. Yes. Yeah. Well, I'm wondering the same thing about John Goodman. Like he is so visible in that trailer. We keep talking about how overdue he is to finally get nominated. Like, even if the movie is not for everybody, does the career thing work better for John Goodman than it does for Tom Cruise?

14:35And he just, Kieran Culkin's his way through the season. He could, but the only, I mean, again, sight unseen, and we have so many other movies, but we already know that there's going to be, that supporting actor race is also filled, like, with so many. I mean, there's also, like, Riz Ahmed. So many people. Yeah, yeah, the same movie. He was in way more the trailer than I expected, too. Yeah, there's the Wild Horse Nine. Yeah. Well, there's the Odyssey, again, which we do. So it's like, but I think like, I do feel like Digger certainly, I think has the most, like I said, most variables could go in a lot of different ways.

15:06And then like Dune for Warner Brothers feels like much more stable in terms of like, we expect it to get several nominations below the line and probably best picture, right? Like that's like, it's four. Yeah, like I think it'll get best picture. So the first one got 10 and the second one got five. Right. Which is kind of nuts. The third one's going to get. This looks so much on Dune part two, I think. you feel like again in terms of like we we did this last week and we'll talk about the odyssey obviously here later but like i feel like like for like the odyssey like at least 14 nominations right it's going to like clear like all the craft nominations you could probably get and i feel like dune will be in the conversation for all of those as well at least like certainly like you know cinematography productions like costume design maybe editing or whatever and then the the big question mark then is like how is it how do they react to it above the line does dennyville new They finally get in.

15:55They haven't done it at all, right, with him, like, for this. So it's like, does he get in at all for director in a competitive year when there are, like, a bunch of epics, like, studio epics? Like, we have Odyssey and Disclosure Day almost said. But, I mean, maybe, not really. But Digger. We'll get there. That's what I was thinking of. Project Hail Mary. Project Hail Mary, like, all these. And then, like, does it actually get a single actor? And, again, sight unseen. Who knows? But they have been away from that, obviously, as an acting play so far. I think it's just going to be picture and below the line.

16:24just because, like, I mean, we talked about those, like, during Dune Part 2. It's like the Stan's hope was that, oh, like, maybe, like, for, like, the second movie, it'll go down and Nam's just, like, the two towers. And then it'll have his Return of the King moment with Part 3. And, like, they've just never have loved this franchise as much as Lord of the Rings. Also a different time, obviously. And those came out successively, like, three years in a row. there's bigger gaps with dune and yeah like i i just don't see it like i it could it could it could probably still win below the line just like last time you know like dune part two still won two out of five so but i don't see it breaking in above the line anywhere it's hard to do the return of the king thing in a year where the odyssey is already there like when there's already And you can already, like, sense that from, like, the Dune fans, like, when, like, Odyssey hit and everything.

17:23It's like, oh, like, it's over for us. You know? Like, that was, like, the vibe. I would really, I think rooting for Villeneuve to finally get nominated is not unreasonable. Like, those movies have come to feel like given more of an accomplishment. Like, he's doing Bond. He's so, like, in the firmament of the industry right now. Like, it would be, him and Nolan being nominated together, like, would make sense. I mean, other people as well. But the two of them as like the big visionary blockbuster guys at the moment, I would like to see that. I think it could. I mean, again, like it could happen, but they haven't done it yet.

17:55And it depends, again, on also like Dune has the advantage a little bit of being like the last big movie, which is maybe a positive or negative, depending on how you want to spin it. Well, we're going to talk about Doomsday in a moment, Chris. Don't worry. Oh, sure. Yes, I forgot. I forgot. It's Doomsday. I forgot about that. It's Doomsday. Yes, yes, yes. Well, actually, before we get to Disney, well, anything else from Warner Brothers. Like I wrote down that, you know, Clayface is coming. That's its own thing. I put up the cat in the hat on this list because there's just so many studio animated movies that like, I don't know why there's just this glut of them this year.

18:24And maybe they're all going to lose to this year's equivalent of flow. But, you know, throwing that out there. I really like the cat in the hat trailer, I will say. So I think it could be fun. We'll be there with our children. Yes. But we should talk about Paramount, which I guess now will not have yet bought Warner Brothers until after the Oscars based on the latest thing a judge said. but when you hear this, maybe things will have changed. But yeah, they got four movies coming out this fall. What do we think about Mr. Irrelevant, Chris? Dudes Rock? I would say Mr. Irrelevant, I think. Love a holiday dad movie.

18:55A holiday dad movie. That feels like a Golden Globe content, or at least who knows anymore. I feel like with the way the Golden Globes have changed. I mean, like David Korn said, definitely would have gotten a Globe nom, like a decade ago. Yeah. But that's what you can't now. And maybe SAG, if depending on, you know what I mean? That feels like a SAG-friendly movie. as well for him, maybe. It's just, it's late, so they need to get the screener. Is it a Philly movie also? Where is he playing sports in this one? Joyce, do you know? He's a giant. Okay. Okay, because I was thinking about, I play Rocky, if it's just like, because Corn Sweat is a Philly guy.

19:27Like, I'm not wrong about that, right? I don't think so, yeah, no. And LeBron's going to the 76ers, like the Philadelphia... It's a Philly time. No, it's Nick's time. Where's Bradley Cooper? Always Nick's. how much do we need to fear Johnny Depp getting a Golden Globe nomination for Ebenezer following that Comic Con stunt I think if the HFPA still existed they do not care they do not care but I could still see it frankly it depends on the movie but I mean I don't know is that an Oscar contender for hair and makeup will they have that out there that's not a bad call that's one of those things that gets in like like, Kukuo's a bad example.

20:07Suicide Squad or what was the other one that did hair and makeup that was terrible. Yeah, well, because it's like, I think I'll definitely make their short list. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good call on there. Did you guys see the tagline that they put on the poster for that? Like, before he was Scrooge, he was Ebenezer. Yes. But like, those are both his names. Like, that's just not true. It's fantastic. It's such a great, it's a great moment in cinema, Katie. Yeah, and this is the company that's going to take over Hollywood. it feels feels great I I mean I will know before we move on from Paramount that the Heart of the Beast trailer I've seen so many times and like I don't really get where Brad Pitt's going with this but like that movie could be could make a ton of money and it just some I'm maintaining awareness of it yeah I mean I don't think it'll be like I mean no it's just it's a dog movie so that's it um well then so we move on from Paramount maybe to Sony another major studio that I guess as of this, when this airs, we'll be on top of the world with Spider-Man.

21:08But as far as we can tell, has just one movie in the Oscar race. And will it stay in the Oscar race? Is the Social Reckoning coming out this year given that it is shooting right now? That's, I mean, like, it seems like they're doing pickups and reshoots, right? So, like, it's supposed to come out in October. So, yep. It's July as we're recording this. I think it'll still come out. I don't, it's their big movie and, like, they kind of made a big splash about it. It's not like it requires a lot of posts. Another great potential for Oscar villainy, right? Like, certainly a Sorkin movie about Facebook.

21:41I still think it looks good. I don't know. I don't know why people were so weird about it. I mean, I don't know. Maybe we're too, like, Sorkin-Pill. I thought people were weird about the trailer. Joyce, where are you on the trailer? I thought it was fine. I don't know. Like, I mean, Bill Burr, like, get him nominated, obviously. Sure. So it's just, I mean, honestly, like, my only reservations is just Aaron directing. That's it. He's very spotty. It's a tricky, tricky history. We can acknowledge that. But how many nominations did Being the Ricardos get? Like, we need to— It got the acting nominations.

22:10It got three acting nominations. I mean, I think Jeremy Strong certainly would be a strong— if it's a strong contender. But he would be if it's good, and he's playing Mark Zuckerberg and looks as fun as he does in the trailer. I don't think you'd be able to write him off as a supporting actor contender. I don't believe that Mikey Madison playing that kind of part doesn't seem to me like she would get, like, an Afterglow nomination. I don't think. And Jeremy Ellen White has not shown that he's able to break through either yet as an actor. And again, he's playing the, like it feels like the actors who would get nominated for this are Jeremy Strong, Bill Burr, and like Winnie Masako, who plays, I think like Mark's producer maybe or something, right?

22:50Like what does it look like she's doing? Like a consultant or whatever? They're both kind of like doing a producer thing. That whole part looks like Steve Jobs to me, which was great and I loved. And so I'm like, if this is like that, maybe it'll be good. But, and again, maybe screenplay for Sorkin, I guess, could be in play as well. I mean, this is bleeding into other studios, but it does feel like with Ink, the Rupert Murdoch thing, and then Artificial, like, there's going to be a loser of those three. Like, we're all going to decide one of them is the weak one, and the social reckoning is in that position now.

23:16But, like, that doesn't necessarily mean it will stick. But, like, all three of them cannot succeed, it feels like. Yeah, I think so. And then also, and everybody playing, like, real people, like, doing stunt things, right? So like Baron Holtz is playing who? Elon in Artificial, which feels like that could be like an Oscar-y thing. And Guy Pearce's Rupert Murdoch in Inc. I'm like all of these guys playing real people who people don't like. This reminds me of, remember like BlackBerry and like Dumb Money? Like the same year. Oh, wow. Sony Studios are cringing for you to bring these up, Joyce. No one wants to be compared to Dumb Money and BlackBerry.

23:52but i mean blackberry is um matt johnson who made the gourdain movie right yeah i'll be curious to see if like sony so sony typically like dumb money was at tiff right like they brought that there and then it opened in september they're not so far we don't know is recording this but so far like social reckoning is nowhere right it's not going to any of these fests i mean it's still shooting so right i mean like i'm not as i don't know i'm like i'm less i'm less nervous about that and that than maybe i should be but i'm just like it probably is fine that they're doing like a couple of pickups, but I'll be curious to see if it goes to any of these fests and what that means.

24:25And like, I don't know. It's probably too late for Venice. Like that, like TIFF is the one. No, TIFF would be the one. And like it could play a TIFF. I can see that. And Sorkin brought Molly's game to TIFF, right? Or, you know, and New York too, maybe. So I'll be curious to see how it, what they do with it. I'm not writing it off yet, but I'm like, it's definitely, it's coming from an, it feels like people want it fairly or unfairly. They want it to flop. It seems like in the discourse. So I'll be curious to see if it's able to overcome that flopping by being good. How different do you think the conversation around it would be if Jesse Eisenberg never said no?

24:58I think it would be good. And I think if it was Fincher directing or somebody other than, like you were saying. I think a lot of it is him directing. Fincher directing would be a big part of it. I just think Jeremy Strong as current Zuckerberg makes so much more sense. Like you don't, you can't get Jesse Eisenberg to do the like weird, creepy version of Zuckerberg that we have now. It's 22 years later. And just watching the performance in the trailer, which again is dangerous, but watching like 30 seconds of his performance, I was like, if that's what they're doing with Zuckerberg, which feels more akin to what he is like now, I don't think Jesse Eisenberg could even do that.

25:33You know what I mean? No. The thing that he was good at doing Zuckerberg in the social network was like, that was like prime time. Yeah. Being a human being. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't blame Jesse Eisenberg for not doing it. I also think they made the right choice with not having him do it, but whatever. It is weird that everyone in the social, like Fincher's got a movie. Jesse Eisenberg's got a movie. Andrew Garfield's in our, like everyone, all the key players have spread to other locations. Like where's Max Minghella? Is he also. He's in Clayface, Katie. There you go. Perfect. Armie Hammer had the U of Bo movie.

26:03Like everyone's, everyone's coming back, obviously. Okay. Should we talk about Disney before we get into Universal? So again, they have a lot of movies that have come out this year. I mean, I don't know if we want to do an animation sidebar, but like, is Toy Story 5 going to go win everything? Is there, like, do you guys have a read on the animation race? Because Disney's got Hoppers, Toy Story 5, and Hexed coming at Thanksgiving, which is interesting. Is this going to be a good year for Disney that way? I don't know. In terms of winning, I don't know. Like, I think Toy Story 5 will get nominated.

26:39Hoppers 2, probably. But I can see, like, Wildwood winning. just based on trends. Right. Yeah. Because that's being released by Fathom Entertainment, right? Like, it doesn't have a studio partner on that, which is very strange to me. But it looks good. Yeah.

26:55Jane Schoenbrun: I need to get that for my kid. Okay, so, otherwise with Disney, like, okay, I put Send Help on this list because it's a 20th century movie, not technically a Disney movie, but, like, I do think the sickos are going to come back around for Rachel McAdams in some way. Not necessarily, like, a full Oscar campaign. Like a Critics Award? Like New York Critics? Like, yeah, or like a Critics' Choice nomination. Like, how far do we think that this can go? In the world of Aunt Gladys, how far can we take this? I definitely think a Critics' Group will do it. I don't know if it'll be New York, but like I could definitely see some Critics' Group going to bat for her.

27:28Is he a runner-up or a nominee? Gotham Awards probably, right, could get her in that 10. I mean, there's like 10 spots. Yeah, they could get her in a field of 10. We keep saying it's a weak Best Actress field, guys, so dream big. I mean, she could definitely get in, I think she'll get like, she will not be forgotten, let's say. I don't think it'll go all the way, but I think there are definitely spots where you can get her in. I think she'll probably replicate her run for Are You There, Margaret. Mm-hmm. God, what a great performance in that movie. Mm-hmm. Did she win a major critics award for that?

27:54She should have. No, because Dave Vine swept everything. Right, right, right. But we did just keep talking about it. Yeah, she won some regionals. Yeah, I think she had a Gotham nomination or something like that. Is Send Help eligible for the Indie Spirits? That feels like it would be. I mean, what is it at this point? That's true. There are no rules. Who knows? um alright in Devil Wears Prada I put on there too again a 20th century movie Meryl again no but like I don't know why I feel so confident about that the movie was a huge hit but like it just doesn't seem like that's gonna happen it feels like a costume thing mmm that's a good call costumes for Oscars Golden Globes maybe in comedy categories and maybe like there's the there's a bunch of original songs they can double nom Anne Hathaway at the Globes oh sure and maybe one of the songs I think the songs could be in play because it's not just the Lady Gaga song, there's a couple of other ones that are like original to the movie that I think they could probably run.

28:45The original song race is another fascinating situation that, you know, maybe that's a different sidebar episode. That just brings us to Avengers. I'm skipping over Dog Stars and Whale Fall. I'm reading the Whale Fall book right now. It is gross. I'm very interested. I mean, he gets eaten by a whale. Yeah, it's super gross. Sounds awful. No, thank you. I mean, Hex, we should say, Like that's a Thanksgiving animated release. Like that's the frozen slot. That could be anything. That could get big. Right. Certainly. Yeah. And dog stars. I just, not that we need to spend a lot of time on this, but they, and they've never really liked, they are hitting hot and cold with Ridley Scott, obviously the Oscars.

29:24But I'm like, if that was good, don't you think it would be coming out at a different time? Like a good for an Oscar. And not August 28th. Yeah. Like, I don't know. So I'm like, that's just a tough date. Like I want there to be more movies in August. Cause it gets so boring, but like late August, is just such a tough date. And isn't Resident Evil coming like a week after that? Like, you know, just to like swallow any attention you might get. Yeah. Tough date. And well, fall, who knows? I mean, the trailer looks kind of crazy and I love a big swing. I'm not reading the book, obviously. I think you don't read.

29:55You don't read. Yeah. It's not a hard read, I gotta say, if you want to try an easy one. If there are pictures of them getting the book, well, you'll read it. Is it on the Kindle edition? So I don't know. I'll have to go get a hard copy. I'll let you know. If it's a photo book, I'd love to read it. Look, I read the graphic numbers of the Odyssey, to be clear. Like, I support you in your desire for pictures. So, yeah, let's talk about Avengers Doomsday. Sure. It's sticking with its release opposite Dune. I still, like, I can't tell if I'm in the bubble thinking that Doomsday is going to be done in because Dune looks so much better.

30:25Or, like, if it's vice versa. Or do both of them succeed? How did this happen? How have we let it come to this point? How did this happen? Yeah. Like, why did no one blink? Why did we do this? I think they're just holding, they just want to like hold their ground, you know? Yeah. And that's it. I do think they'll be able to both make a ton of money. I don't think that'll be a problem, honestly. And even with Dune having all the IMAX screens, online, definitely the tone on Avengers has shifted, I would say. And Marvel in general, it's not as cool. And certainly people are going to be like, oh, whatever.

30:56But I mean, like in real life, I think the movie, people still go see an Avengers movie with like Captain America and Chris Emptor. I would say, yeah, I would say it had a successful Comic-Con. Okay. So I actually completely missed. I saw that there's a new Black Panther, but other than that, I was out of the loop. David Johnson. What was successful? Yeah. Well, yeah, people were excited. I think I, let me rephrase that. I think the general public was excited about the announcements. What Ryan Gosling is also a ghostwriter. This is like irrelevant. I did hear about that. How much money does that man need?

31:29Like that's a lot of franchises. I mean, he's got to raise some kids, I guess. So good on you. I mean, Ryan Gosling, love Project Hail Mary, love your work. Listen, that household just does Ghost Rider movies. I also think it's like, he's at the age where with his kids, I imagine, and Ben Affleck said this like often about like Batman, where he's just like, he just wanted to make something that his kids wanted to see. And so I'm sure like, this is like, you know what would be cool? Yeah, his kids are like nine and 11. You know what movies my kids like? Project Hail Mary, which is good. And Star Wars.

31:58And now this. It's like, yeah, he's going to do Star Wars. and then this. It's great. He's just hitting every franchise. Just like Harrison Ford. So, you know, here are the Blade Runner. What's the best movie Sean Levy has made that, like, would make any sense for any of us? We're on a real sidebar here, but God, that guy, he's in charge of everything. But for Avengers, Doomsday. Yeah. I think that, you know, they played another trailer in Hall H that's not released yet to the public, but, and that went over well. And I think people are just kind of like the general, the general public is more hyped about it than film Twitter is about it.

32:39Who could have guessed? I know. Shocking. I know. So I think. But also that for Oscar purposes, that means the exact same thing. For Oscar purposes, it will just be, it'll get visual effects. Visual effects is the one, right? Like that's it. So. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, visual effects, I think we said this in our Odyssey conversation, Chris, is an interesting race. Like I think Project Hail Mary is an interesting part of that. but yeah I mean for the Marvel Oscar breakthrough like sort of happened and sort of didn't and it feels like that moment is so far past this now I just can't imagine them like I mean for Endgame they made a push for RDJ and supporting actor obviously but there's not going to be like there's not going to be a push like that for Doomsday you know so it's like we can just like forget about acting and it's like what it no way unless it's like the best I mean they never got in front of these other ones other than Black Panther like why is this no it is crazy how many people were in that trailer who I just completely forgot and do we know sorry do we not know who any of the X-Men are like do we know who's playing any of these people other than like it's the original X-Men from 2000 oh it's like like Rebecca Romijn is playing Mystique yes yeah she's Mystique James Marsden is Cyclops that's incredible we just went we just pretended I'm gonna guess not to spoil it for anybody I'm gonna guess that there will not be long for the movie that would be my expectation I mean like you know like the rumor about Sadie Sink in Spider-Man.

33:56Right. Because she's, by this point, we'll have known. Yeah, we'll have known. But she's supposed to be playing, like, Jean Grey. Jean Grey. Because, like, no one knows who she's playing in Brand New Day. And so, like, so the one thing people were upset about was there was no X-Men cast reveal at Comic-Con. And it's like, they can't do that if she's playing Jean Grey. Correct. Because the movie's not out yet. So they're gonna do the X-Men cast announcement at D23. Yes. And so, like, this will be, like, I think this will be, like, again, this is for comic book purposes, this will be, like, a culling of all these timelines.

34:23And then they'll just say, like everybody's dead and we're going to start over again new. That's that we might expect. Yeah. It's RDJ like being Thanos this time. There's, there's incursions of all the different timelines and. I understand all of this. I definitely do. Okay. Let's wrap it up with universal. Is there anything non odyssey with universal that you guys think is, will be relevant for our purposes in four months? Joyce, what do you think? Um, you know, I enjoy minions. All the film knowers loved Minions and audiences said that. I've only seen two Minions movies in my life. You might also have only seen two.

35:03Yeah. I mean, Disclosure Day is also another divisive one. And when it came out in June, there was like, for like a brief spell, there was like a big push of like, oh, like Emily Blanc, like best actress. She is great in it. She is great in it, though. And like Steven could get in and picture. I'm like, I don't think so. like just knowing like the Odyssey, the Odyssey is coming up, like that's going to be their priority. And I just, it just felt like the disclosure day discourse felt similar to kind of like the doing part two discourse where people were talking about like Austin Butler for like months and then just kind of faded away.

35:40And obviously it still got into picture, but like it only got five nominations. So I don't, there was more enthusiasm for doing part two. I do think that Emily Blunt, again, if you're like gaming it out, like a SAG nomination that I don't think is out of the question for her. She could do like, remember when she got in like in a bunch of places for like Girl on a Train like that? Like that. Like Golden Globes. Remember when she won for A Quiet Place Part 2? Yes, because they snubbed Regina. Like BAFTA, she could definitely be on the long list, I think. It is a good performance. So I think she'll be like kind of, she'll be hanging around the awards season until like it ends, phase one ends basically in my mind.

36:16Like they'll have it and if, we'll talk about The Odyssey in a second, but assuming they're going to run and in supporting for Odyssey, they don't have a lot of other, as a major student, they'll have Indy Navarrete obviously for focus, but like they don't have a lot of other best actress contenders to like be pushing. So they could push her as their like number one best actress contender and bring her out, get her on like the actors on actors and do like THR round table and all this stuff. And like, I don't think she'll make it in, but it is a great performance. And I do think like, if anything is going to make it in from that movie, it would be that.

36:49I feel like picture is harder. Director, I don't believe. Maybe like John Williams for score, if they're very sentimental. I think he'd make the long list. They do love nominating John Williams, yeah. Or short list, as it were. So I don't think it's like out of the question, but it's definitely challenging because it wasn't a flop, so it's not a cross off. It's not a big hit either. It's kind of like in the middle a little bit. So it's like, that's maybe tougher. But I'm sure they'll, Spielberg is the best. So like, they'll just keep, I'm sure. They love having him. I hope he accepts a fake award at the Gothams.

37:20to keep it in the conversation. Visionary. Icon and visionary. Oh, my God. What are the fake titles that are going to come up with this year? I can't wait. That's another episode. There's always Ensemble. That's another episode? That's another episode. Oh, yeah. We'll just predict the fake awards. The fake awards. That's a draft we could do next time. I'm going to pull up my thesaurus. Get ready. How many words are there for Icon? Oh, just endless. Like legend. We can make some money doing this, you guys.

37:46Jane Schoenbrun: Let's get a consulting business going. I put Other Mommy on our list because did you guys see that trailer before the Odyssey? I didn't see it before the Odyssey. I didn't see it. People out in my theater at the Other Mommy trailer. Like, it was genuinely fun. Like, I don't know. Who knows what's going to happen? But like a Jessica Chastain, like, SAG campaign for Other Mommy would be fun. That's awesome. I think she's really going for it in this one. It seems like, yes. The memes will be great regardless. Oh, yeah. I mean, I've already seen the, like, screenshot of, like, the thing that scared the absolute hell out of everyone in my row.

38:15Like, people, like, I think I said this on the podcast. Like, when it was over, everyone in the theater, started laughing like they'd just gotten off a roller coaster. Like everyone was so hyped for the Odyssey and then got so scared of other movies. My friend, like she saw it like, you know, with Normie so she saw the trailer too and she said like she and her friends were freaked out and like they couldn't like settle before the Odyssey started. That's crazy. That's so funny. It's a weird headspace to be in for when the Odyssey starts. That's awesome. Oh, I also throw out the Forgotten Island, which is opening in late September, which is the Wild Robot spot.

38:44I don't know. Looks cool. The trailer looks fun. Yeah, it's interesting animation. There's a lot of animation this year, right? Yeah, there really is. And like Netflix is going to be in the mix with two of their own. We'll talk about them later. So putting a pin in that. Okay, so the Odyssey. Is it going to break the Sinners record? Chris, have you changed your opinion on this since we talked about it two weeks ago? Unless it, I don't think so. I think it'll top out at 15. I don't think, there's no way this song is going to, I don't believe the Travis Scott song would get in. We can save this if it does, but it just does not like seem like something they would nominate.

39:14It's a credit song and it's not super catchy. I don't know. So maybe that's just my personal taste, but I don't think it would get in. But it could get at least 14, and then if it gets additional acting nominations beyond Ann and Matt, it would be 15. The problem is, like you were saying in your newsletter this week, Kate, or as we're recording this, is that there's so many supporting actors. Who is going to break through, if any of them, or do they all kind of knock each other off? Is that going to happen? And where it gets none, maybe it gets none of the actors beyond Ann Hathaway and Matt Damon.

39:45What do you think, Joyce? About the supporting actor specifically. I, well, in supporting actress, I think Anne will get it. I mean, I think I could pull a double with her and Samantha. Yeah. And like supporting actress is the friendliest to double noms. So. That's more than supporting actor? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Interesting. They didn't have, they didn't have one in supporting act for 26 years until three billboards. So. Yeah. Okay. So do you think like Samantha, do you imagine her being like Elle Fanning where she just, everybody kind of like talks about it early and then she kind of fades and then she's in at the end i think i think she'll be a little bit stronger because like l was kind of invisible yes largely so i think i think i think um like she'll get like a critics push samantha i can see her winning one of those um and just getting like random nominations here and there i can see her getting in at critics choice um and even like the globes you know um bafta too and like she's also like she's already done like a ton of press for it like a lot of them were like embargoed you know like until like first weekend and then they could run so she could talk about it all and um so and like i think she's also like a lot of her answers to like they're like you know to invoke tom cruise it's like she's like looking back on her career uh-huh uh-huh and just like how you know she was shocked to like get this part and she's talked about like you know she started acting when she was 14 and you know like she didn't have like a proper home life and everything and she didn't expect to get this part and then you know like she she's had like these like brief like really great like single scene performances the last couple years like and she said you know so everyone's favorite movie she said yeah she said yeah she was it was a good movie another free idea for variety if they're listening actors on actors tom cruise and samantha morton get it done minority report yeah that's a good one how much do you both think this like matters that she's great in the movie, but it also is maybe the best scene in the movie because of the visual effects and how cool it is.

41:42Does that really help her? And everyone is like, how did they do that? And Nolan doesn't want to be talking about it yet. Does the scene itself help? They'll talk about it in six months. That was my argument for Elliot Page that the Hades scene is the other scene that everyone comes out of it talking about. And he is essential. I mean, Elliot Page and Benny Safdie, I guess, the stars of the best scene and the best movie of the year. But yeah, I think I think having that scene that everyone wants to talk about is huge. And Elliot Page, like you said, definitely has the heart and soul of the movie narrative, I think, that you could drum up for Elliot Page.

42:14Unless John Linguazamo goes and runs away with it. I mean, speaking about press tour, like, his interviews, he's been all over the place. He's the one I think could actually get into supporting actor. Yes. Like, because he's the veteran and who's never been nominated, you know? So, and I think, like, if they were going to do, like, just one supporting actor, it would be him. and not Robert. It's so hard to get past the star like that. Like getting past Pattinson and Tom Holland, who like I think is not the performance I mean talks about, but he kind of has to be campaigned in that spot. Well, yeah, like all of them will be, but I just think like it's like in the end, it's like Judd Hirsch getting in.

42:54You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's actually a really good comp for that. It's like Judd Hirsch and then like, I don't know, like Delroy getting in or like America for our, like those people who are just like, who love it in the industry and going to be campaigning. And maybe now we'll take John, I feel like there's more people taking John Leguizamo seriously at this point than there was ever for America for our at this point. Or like Delroy Lindo at this point. The Sinners comp, like he's Delroy and like Robert is Miles. Yeah. It's like Miles is the one, like Robert is the one like everyone wants to get in online, but like the voters are going to go with the veteran.

43:28So Robert gets in at SAG and then John Leguizamo gets in the Oscars. Pat and Singh is if he really pops in Dune and like that can be the vehicle or primetime, you know, like if you can give him one of his other movies and kind of take some of the pressure off the Odyssey, then you make room for like Leguizamo and Paige just throwing that. I'm just I'm going to keep beating that drum forever. Or does that become Leguizamo and somebody else? I mean, it could, but then we're talking two supporting actors, two supporting actresses and Damon. So then that's five acting nominees. And nothing an actress.

43:57And nothing an actress, but that's fine. Five acting nominees. Then it would break the sinners. You know, what are you going to do? And it would break the sinner's record. But yeah, no. And at this point, in terms of picture, like it's got to be the front runner, right, to win. Yeah, and director. And director as well. And like we've talked about either, I mean, certainly Katie Newton, like being the leader in the clubhouse is very valuable because now everything that comes next is going to have, especially these big movies like Dune and Digger and beyond, it's going to have to be like, well, was it like, I already know the Odyssey was great.

44:27And is this as good as the Odyssey? Like, I don't know. experienced this with Oppie. Oppenheimer. You know, like, it was, like, the exact same thing. And then that still had Killers coming. And, like, Chris, you and I saw Killers before we saw Oppenheimer, too. Oh, interesting. I didn't realize you guys did that. Yeah. And we were both like, it's gonna be Oppie. We know it's gonna be Oppie because it's just like, Killers is fine. I mean, sure. But Oppie was like, I saw better. I just had to see Killers three times, just to be sure. I still don't love it. But I'm like, you know, Oppie, I think, is great.

44:55Yeah, he tried. But, no, I think that's right. Do you think that Oppenheimer gets in the way Chris and I talked about this too. Yeah, that's the other thing. The hardest thing, the biggest thing in its way is Oppenheimer because he just did it. No, I don't think so. I think like, like people make this argument too when someone, like an actor has already won an Oscar. Like this was the argument against Frances McDormand, right? It's like, oh, we just gave her one for three willboards. Like she's not going for Nomadland and then she did it. Or Emma Stone. Yeah, Emma Stone too. That was like a bigger gap.

45:23But like, I don't think they care if they like the thing. They like the thing and they'll vote for you. Do people like it as much as they did? I mean, I know the reviews and everything, but this is Chris's whole thing. It's like the Oppo research is like, well, it's no Oppenheimer. I wonder how real that is. I liked Oppenheimer more personally. I think they're both great, but I would be like, if I was running an Oppo campaign. Yeah, you still have to find something else that they liked more than the Odyssey this year, though. It's not running up against Oppenheimer this year. We need to know what is this, whether it's La Bola Negra or any of these other smaller movies.

45:56What is the pseudo-killers? or like what is something that people find like they're going to really love? I don't think it'll be like a big movie. I think it'll have to be if someone were something were to take it down it'll have to be like a coda thing, you know? Like something small. Even though the Odyssey is not the power of the dog, it's much more well liked. But like that's the frontrunner. Just in terms of like the frontrunner race, like it's the frontrunner. It was Shakespeare in Love actually. We talked about this. Like that's the perfect situation. It does remind me a little of Odyssey in terms of like Spielberg coming off Schindler's list, not consecutively, but like, oh, we can, he's going to win again.

46:30And like Tom Hanks, great. Like this is great. And then it doesn't win these because Roberto Benigni wins and Shakespeare in Love wins. So like I could see that happening. Congratulations to Gitarra De La Fuente. Is that the guy's name? Is the star of Bola Bola N 'Gra? Or I don't know, Sebastian Stan or somebody else is in one of the international movies. Well, I'm excited for the Odyssey Awards campaign. Joyce, are you ready to talk about it for eight months? Yeah. It'll be our own Odyssey. so our own journey through awards season well I'm excited for what these studios have I love this moment where the Oscars get to pay attention to studio movies again and studio movies are good and to keep talking to you guys about it so Joyce thank you for helping us kick off this fall preview series it is always a delight and a privilege absolutely just like our just getting on this boat together and sailing up into the Mediterranean and for those of you listening stay tuned I'll be back in a moment with my conversation with Jane Schoenbrunn

47:30This podcast is supported by Netflix presenting The Diplomat now nominated for seven Emmy Awards including outstanding drama series Variety lauds it the finest chapter of The Diplomat to date and AFI hails it the TV program of the year starring Emmy nominee and actor award winner Carrie Russell alongside dynamic performances from Emmy nominees, lead actor Rufus Sewell, supporting actress Alison Janney, and guest actor Bradley Whitford. With Emmy-nominated writing from Deborah Kahn, Decider calls The Diplomat a masterclass in storytelling.

48:18Now let's hear my conversation with Jane Schoenbren, whose new film Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma world premiered at Cannes earlier this year and is now coming out in theaters. It was very fun talking to Jane about having a Cannes premiere after premiering their first two films at Sundance and really the difference of what that experience was in the sense of having really made it. They also talked to me about how their first two films, including I Saw the TV Glow, a really big breakout hit a few years ago, came from a pretty personal dark place and teenage sex and death was really more of a chance to have fun.

48:53They based it on their childhood love of seeing slasher movies, of walking the shelves at Blockbuster to discover something new. And we even talked about why candy felt like a really important part of this story. The film stars Hannah Einbeiner and Gillian Anderson. It really is one of the best films of the year. And my conversation with Jane went all over the place talking about this amazing film and eventually why we have to destroy capitalism. So you might want to stick around for that part as well. Hear all of that and so much more in my conversation with the writer and director of Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma, Jane Chodron.

49:29To start with kind of an obvious question, but kind of an interesting one to me, what was it like premiering this movie at Cannes after doing Sundance twice? And especially at this Cannes where everyone was like, the Americans, where have the Americans gone? We have so few of them. And you're kind of like waving the flag, whether and where you want to or not all the gay ones are still i mean there were some good movies so it

49:51Jane Schoenbrun: worked out but yeah well how was it uh can was crazy i mean that was like that's that's like a dream you know like there have been a few things where it's been like if you told me that that happened i i wouldn't i would i would just be like like a previous version of me would like overheat You know, like the smoke would start pouring out of my ears. And I feel like it was like Martin Scorsese liking TV Glow. Recently, like K-Stew talking about this film. That made me overheat for sure. And playing at Cannes. I don't know. I just never thought I would. And I, you know, I had good experiences at Sundance.

50:33Jane Schoenbrun: And I'm so, I'm very like aware of the festival landscape because I used to program film festivals. And, like, I used to go to lots and lots of film festivals, and I understand that world. And it's just, like, a childhood thing maybe that, like, can mean something really, really special. Or it's the, like, the thing that everyone else is impersonating or something. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So just, like, getting to be there and screen in the Palais and feel, like, that level of surreal achievement. I try to not like live my life based on getting those kinds of thrills but like I allowed myself that one Yeah when they come you gotta embrace it And crazy yeah and like I remember before it being like I just really wanna like stay as present tense during this as possible like Hannah kept saying this thing that whole week she would just be like you know that feeling where it's like this is already the past as you're living it and I was like yeah totally And it's like a struggle just to be like, let me just like soak this in because it's so crazy.

51:42Yeah. Did the film play differently than, I mean, I know you had virtual sentence for the first time you did it. But like playing for that audience that's in Europe and, you know, has, you know, alongside another Christian Monge movie. Like, did it change how you think the movie like landed or what you thought the audience would be into?

51:58Jane Schoenbrun: It was a really warm audience, which was awesome. I had no idea what to expect. And, like, I think I had, like, an inside joke with myself about, like, that was probably me, like, hedging my bets of, like, it would be kind of cool, though, to get, like, booed at Cannes. Some great pictures have been booed at Cannes, you know? Very true. And, but that didn't happen, which, you know, if you asked me to choose, I would definitely choose the not booed at Cannes option. but yeah the film played I think really warmly although I also like then going home and the second time I got to watch it with just like a public normal audience was at Newfest which like started like a string of screenings that I went to that were just like filled with gay American people yeah it's been on such like a roadshow which is such a cool way to play I mean When I think Roadshow, I think, like, Sound of Music, and this is, like, a much smaller movie than that, but it's such a cool way to do it and for you to get to see it firsthand like that.

53:01Jane Schoenbrun: Yeah, we've watched it at a few screenings, and the crowds are really raucous, and the movie wants that. You know, that's part of it is that, like, I remember watching World's Fair for the first time at Walter Reed in New York. Cool. At New Directors New Films. That was, like, literally the first time it played in public because it was pandemic. Yeah. And I remember just sitting there feeling everyone in the room, like being really like anxious and bummed out by the movie. And like, that's what the movie is kind of asking for. So I was like, job well done. But this movie is like made to be enjoyed and made to be like a really good time in a dark theater.

53:43Jane Schoenbrun: Surprising, like it encourages audience interaction in certain ways even. And so to get to be in rooms of people who are, like, stoked to see it and then feel them, like, yeah, just like you came out, you know, maybe you've been looking forward to this. And, like, I think a lot of them dig the movie and just, like, have a really, like, you know that feeling when, like, people want to laugh? Yeah. It's really nice with a movie like this one. And especially for me, having made some bummer movies, it's like cultivating that joy and then feeling that joy in those rooms has been really, really wonderful.

54:23Jane Schoenbrun: And yeah, there was a bit of that at Cannes. But I do think like even if that was there, maybe it was like the French thing of it all. It was a little more serious. But it was also like I was just so like, holy shit, I'm at fucking Cannes. Yeah. I didn't like, it wasn't until New Fest that I was able to just sort of like kick back and be like, oh, this movie is kind of a crowd pleaser. I like that. Yeah. Well, I like the way you've talked about TV Glow and World's Fair kind of coming from like, this one is personal too, but coming from this personal dark place like you were talking about. And this one kind of felt like, all right, now let's do a fun one.

54:55And I don't know if that's because it was just the idea that stuck with you and the time worked out or if it's like you kind of got something out with those first two and it kind of made it possible to do this and have fun.

55:04Jane Schoenbrun: No, I mean, those movies came from a really specific explosion in my life. World's Fair was like the getting ready to puke. You know that feeling when you really, really need to puke? That was five years of needing to puke. And I was working on World's Fair that whole time. Puking being, I guess. Making the movie? No, no, transition. And then TV Glow is like a movie that I wrote right after the veritable puke about how terrifying coming out was. And it was. I blew up my life. I was 32. I was straight married. I had to tell everyone in my life that I was going to transition. And that essentially ended my life as I knew it.

55:57Jane Schoenbrun: And I wanted to make a movie that, like, didn't simplify that experience. I wanted to make a movie that, like, just shouted, you know, like it was like a whale of a movie, not like the sea creature, like a cry into the void or something. And, look, I think they're funny movies also. I'm, like, a goofy person. And so there's a lot of dark humor sprinkled into those movies. But this movie came from a different place and it came from like the thing that I needed to transition because it was broken, even though it was going to be a really scary thing to do, was starting to be less broken and was starting to feel.

56:38and it's kind of, yeah, I don't,

56:42Jane Schoenbrun: I can try to put it into words. I think it's a hard thing to explain if you're not trans in transition because like, it's like if your arm has been broken since you were 13 years old, but you didn't even realize it had been broken and then it gets like not broken and you're like, whoa, I can throw a baseball. And this is the baseball, maybe. Baseball is maybe sex. which is also what this movie is about fixing a lot of metaphors here today well i like the way you talked about this and this is part of tv glow too obviously like your childhood being part of it but it's not about the nostalgia trying to make it look like a nightmare on all street movie but making it feel like what it's like to be 11 and watch these movies and when people talk about like hearkening back to how you felt as a kid it's like that spielberg-y childhood wonder thing and that's not really what what any of your movies have been like at all and I wonder how you kind of nailed how to visualize that like it's such a hard thing to to translate to somebody else and that's what these movies have done and how how have you figured that out it comes as naturally to me probably as the Spielberg thing comes to Spielberg because I think it like it is my experience of of of like the memory of being a kid is um it's all in there like the Spielberg stuff is obviously in there too like there there's a I think I try to explain it as just like when you're a kid and you're born into like the Burger King ball pit, you like find a way to find that beautiful, you know?

58:15Jane Schoenbrun: Like because you have to because you're a human being with a heart and like you're still alive and there's magic to being alive. Yeah, being raised in the suburbs, it's a very artificial environment and it's an environment that's been created to seem normal and natural and everyone around you is telling you that it is perfect and safe and idyllic. Yeah, the 90s, this end of history thing. Growing up from within that, not having the political or sociological context of that this is this constructed like pre-millennial but still quite like late capitalist. That we didn't actually fix everything to get to this point and things aren't necessarily going to be like this forever.

58:58Jane Schoenbrun: But I still like, of course I found it all romantic because it was the only thing around me. But I think I also was like a sensitive enough kid to like sense the way in which it was sinister or the way it was like false in some way. Like simulation I think is something that I've always been like quite sensitive to. And so now when I like think back on the world I came from or like the feeling of like wonder or magic that you like try to grasp in childhood, it's like there's, yeah, like it holds all of it. You know, it holds the like the Spielberg stuff and like idyllic like front lawn stuff. But then there's like something unreal or something like decaying in it too.

59:49Jane Schoenbrun: It's just like it's a happy place, oddly enough, for me to go to and very easy to like conjure. Yeah, and I think I have like read enough theory to like kind of, you know, like Beaujolard was really helpful at first. And, yeah, like Mark Fisher and his ideas of like hauntology, of being like instead of nostalgic for the past, kind of haunted by the past because the future is foreclosed. So the only place you have to go is to the ghost of an idea of the past. Like these ideas continue to really resonate and come quite naturally to me because it's just like that's a language that I can like feel in my bones.

1:00:30Jane Schoenbrun: Yeah. Well, here I was just thinking about the ear in Blue Velvet, which is, you know. How old were you when you saw that? Did that feel like it was named everything that you were thinking of? My parents talked about Blue Velvet like it was the scariest movie ever made, actually. I think that they saw that and it really, really upset them. So it was kind of this forbidden, really forbidden thing in a way. Did that make you only want to watch it more? I think in a way, yeah. But in a way, it like, yeah, like I think I had this idea of it as like so hardcore that like it was an object to like be very, very cautious around.

1:01:12Jane Schoenbrun: Blue Velvet in particular. I think the first, I mean, I saw Twin Peaks so young. And then I saw Mulholland Drive in theaters when it came out with my friend's dad. I must have been 12 or 13. Yeah, yeah. And I remember that one, like, feeling weird and bad in this way. You know, like, when you see something, and maybe this is a queer thing, I don't know. Like, when you see something that's, like, depicting sex and sexual desire, kind of, like, before you're, like, really even aware of it as a thing. And then, like, when you, like, think back on it, you're like, there's something in that movie that made me really uncomfortable.

1:01:49I don't get it.

1:01:50Jane Schoenbrun: when I saw Mulholland Drive again in my like early 20s I was like oh that's my favorite movie I watched it like four times in a weekend I was just like yeah but I had this like weird memory of being made to feel like probably like both like turned on and bad which is clearly the intention well that's sort of what's in at least in as a picked in can't be asked like the slasher movies too is like you watch these movies and they stick with you and I don't know if that's how you felt if the slasher movies were kind of more of a straightforward thing that you enjoyed. But like that, that combination is so, and so present in the way that you're recreating these.

1:02:27Jane Schoenbrun: Yeah, it was, I asked for one scene, like as we were prepping the movie and getting towards production, I added, I try not to do this because everyone gets mad at you for good reason when you do this. But I was like, guys, I think we need like one more scene to shoot in the schedule. I think we really need to see young Chris, like, watching the movie. Like, it was referenced in the script, but it wasn't something we, like, actually visually saw on the page. And the more we, like, dug into, like, the physical kind of, like, reality of making the movie and the emotions of how it was going to feel and play and Hannah and Jillian's dynamic in it, I was like, yeah, I thought a lot about this idea of, like, the primal scene.

1:03:13Jane Schoenbrun: which is like a Freudian concept for what maybe we're talking about, this idea of seeing something, seeing your parents have sex in Freud's estimation before you know what sex is. Sure. It kind of like does what can did to my brain. It like overheats your brain a little bit. What the hell am I even looking at? Yeah. And then it sticks forever. It's like that becomes the primal scene is the thing that you are remaking over and over again in the same way that like Chris is remaking Camp Miasma is like she's trying to like remake that feeling she had seeing that thing that she wasn't supposed to see too young and it just kind of like overheating her sensors and probably like, yeah, as she says, like I saw too many movies and it fucked me up for life kind of.

1:04:02Jane Schoenbrun: Yeah, I think there's something really powerful to that and there's something really moving if you think about like not that as like an individual experience, but that as like a cultural experience that we all have. And that like, and how many people had that watching slasher movies, you know, and like, then what are the implications of that coming via the slasher movie? What does it make you as an adult to have that? It's a particular melange of like, or miasma of violence and desire and gender and all that other stuff. Yeah. Well, as you were saying before, like this movie is about sex and that part of it, but it's also about candy and movie theater candy.

1:04:41And I don't know how like, you know, specific you want to get in explaining the presence of candy in this movie, but it's so vivid and hargling to childhood for me and also just felt like from such a specific place. So why was candy so inextricably tied in with all of this?

1:04:58Jane Schoenbrun: Um, I mean, a few different reasons. And yeah, like there's like an idea, right, of like junk food and like this slasher genre, which may be like is it can be sometimes like evaluated as like a junk food of cinema and finding like pleasure in yeah in play and in sugar and in like things that aren't quote unquote good for you in the same way that like I have found a lot of pleasure in the excesses of the slasher genre I think it's also like like the movie is interested in watching horror and enjoying horror not because it's upsetting but because it's comforting in some strange way, that there is like ritual to it, right?

1:05:42Jane Schoenbrun: Like there's ritual to like the sleepover where it's like midnight and the parents are asleep and you and your friends are like, oh, we really shouldn't watch this thing, but let's put it on. And like seeing Chris in the first 10 minutes of the movie dump a bunch of Raisinets into the popcorn and like be in her PJs, excited to watch like a shitty slasher movie, It just felt like that was an important signal to the audience that that's the mindset maybe that, like, I want you to be. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I think there's another element that does have something to do with sex, which is that, like, it's a form of aftercare in my experience.

1:06:22Candy, specifically?

1:06:23Jane Schoenbrun: Yeah, yeah. Like, um, maybe also like pre-care. I don't know, like that, um, it's, it's a movie about, or like where it came from was learning how to be comfortable with something that felt really, really scary and vulnerable to open up. And obviously, like, in order to get more comfortable post-transition with sex, like, I needed to feel really safe. Safe in, you know, the ways that, like, we talk about in terms of, like, consent, but also safe in terms of, like, being around people who didn't feel like strangers, who felt like friends and who felt like, yeah, just people I could completely trust to hold.

1:07:03Jane Schoenbrun: Things that I was really scared to open up about myself. and knowing that there's just some, like, you know, there's that moment where Jillian is just like, let's make some s'mores. Like, you're having a freak out right now. Like, sexual trauma. Like, it becomes a form of care of just like, yeah, this is sexy, but it's like, yeah, there's something queer, I think, about being like, sex is play and it, like, we can sort of, like, come in and out of it with some, you know, comfort food on the side. Yeah, that like good and plenties can be part of it because who's who is there to tell you? I don't remember if there's good and plenties in there, but that's a classic movie theater candy in my mind, at least.

1:07:44Jane Schoenbrun: Interesting. I don't think you see that much anymore. I don't either. I'm trying to remember where I've seen them. I like the way that you've talked about the opening montage of kind of showing all the like this franchise begat sequels and merch and all this like the kind of capitalist crap that comes around these things. but with all like, with like a deep level of affection that like these things mean something. And therefore they're going to be part of like best case scenario. I want all the Kami has emerged to be out there, but like capitalism is such a complicated thing for everybody, but though it didn't, it doesn't seem that complicated in this movie.

1:08:19It seems like it, you know, it's part of this machine. Chris is getting hired to make this reboot for like pure crass commercial reasons, but there's such like a genuine meaning for her in it. Like, is it not that you have, you figured out capitalism or anything, But does it feel that straightforward that like you can find something that's good within the system that may be causing all this bad? Did you kind of have to work that out to figure this out? I think I've arrived at quite the opposite, which is I think of it as just pure suicide.

1:08:49Jane Schoenbrun: You know, like capitalism as a system and as like a practice that we're all trapped within. Yeah, like very much trapped in a machine that like is in charge. All it needs is like somebody to want power, which of course they're always going to find somebody and that power is going to be built on exploitation. Like, isn't it fucking crazy that the people with the most money and power are clearly the evilest people in the world? Doesn't that seem a little off? Like, it's pretty clearly just, like, literally destroying the world and trying to make everything soulful, which there will always be in this world, soulful things, into, yeah, capital.

1:09:41Jane Schoenbrun: Mm-hmm.

1:10:11Jane Schoenbrun: of rot on this world.

1:10:18I didn't mean to take us down this dramatic road.

1:10:22Jane Schoenbrun: But, you know, that's not slasher movies' fault. That's not even slasher movie merch' fault. You can have slasher movie merch under communism. So if it's an ethically produced slasher movie merch in which the workers get to share in the profits, then that's the... No ethically produced slasher movie merch under capitalism. I mean, you've also, like, in the process of promoting this movie at Cannes, I am imagining after that, you've been really honest about the process of making a follow-up to TV Glow and this capitalism of Hollywood of, like, getting something made was not the straightforward process that it should have been.

1:11:02Like, is that part of your thought process to just kind of say, like, to be more frank about how this works and who it's not working for than I think a lot of people would be willing to. I think it's more just like, yeah, I've always had a hard time

1:11:19Jane Schoenbrun: not saying the truth as I understand it, you know? And I, yeah, almost like I'd rather build my career, quote unquote, as an artist around like being someone who just does that. Sure. Except the consequences, if there are consequences of it, then like lie, you know, or like be a politician. That's what so many filmmakers wind up doing is being politicians about it. Like it's such a it's kind of the obvious path that I assume some people have been trying to push you down this whole time. I don't know. It's a funny thing, right? It is. It's I don't know that any no one's like called me and been like, you better stop or else we're sending someone after you.

1:12:10But like the horse head on the bed is coming your way.

1:12:13Jane Schoenbrun: They probably call my agent and say I want to talk to me directly. But I think I also like, yeah, there's it's like I'm not so interested in like purity, you know, like. I want to be really honest about like how rotten and rotting this world is. And that's pretty clear for those with eyes to see. Like, I don't think I'm saying anything radical and saying that like we are on a collective path towards like cultural, ecological suicide. But I do think the more we can all say it and more the more we can all like yeah like once once the sort of like middle class realizes that um their interests aren't being served by like late capitalist fascism and in fact this is like entering the late stage of like extractive like um apocalypse the the more we can start talking about like how to start healing a little bit i don't know it's like, if you're an artist, you want to speak truthfully and I'm an artist and, and that's the world that I look around and see.

1:13:30Yeah. Do you like, not that your movies are like, you know, you can cut at your movies for changing things, but like when you, when you put something truthful out there, when you make something, you know, you've talked about how there's not really a point in making movies that are not the ones that you want to make. That's, you know, that that's a different path of career that you're not taking. Does it, I don't know, does it feel like it's pushing back in some way of saying like, it doesn't all have to fall apart. We don't have to give up entirely if we can, you know, make the movie the way we want to make them?

1:13:57Jane Schoenbrun: Well, I think movies are unique, right, as like an art form. And, you know, like the sort of like post-internet era has really found a way to like decimate and make it really hard for like artists to find their way into the world in every industry. Like the tools of like production have gotten more accessible, but the tools of distribution have all actually like, like constricted, you know, like if Spotify isn't promoting your album, because some publicity firm is paying that company to do you know, it's it becomes harder and harder to like, reach people because the channels are all kind of like owned by these like mega corporations.

1:14:44Jane Schoenbrun: But film is a particularly tough one just because of how much money it costs to make right it's like the proposition of me writing my book is a very huge proposition in terms of like how many people i need to convince to let me do it than making any movie let alone you know like a movie for 10 million dollars or whatever this one cost um and this is not you confirming the budget of the movie uh sorry where what was the question i don't know about making movies at the end of the world and making it all worth it uh no no i was gonna say there's um uh um yeah like the the idea of like being a good example for people i don't know that i believe in i like like and i do think it's like I look to, I have like artist idols, you know, like when I'm feeling like it's impossible, I'll go reread James Baldwin, you know.

1:15:50Jane Schoenbrun: And yeah, like setting an example of like working with some kind of integrity, not like I said, purity, because I do think it's like there's no way to be completely outside the system. And like, obviously I am like choosing to work within these systems and take the money and try to do cool things with the money. And does that taint me? How much does that taint me? Like, these are all questions that I think are like interesting, um, that I think about that I invite others to think about and talk about and critique about. But at least like, yeah, I don't know. Like I don't, I don't, I don't want to be like defensive about any of it.

1:16:34Jane Schoenbrun: I want to like be in dialogue with how to be honest, like live an honest and meaningful life as an artist in this, in this time. Yeah. I mean, it's like question for you as we start to wrap it up thinking about your book, which is coming out in October. Feel free to plug it. October. Just like writing a book, like you said, not having to get a bunch of millions of dollars or getting a bunch of people to do that with you. Like, what does that give you as an artist of knowing that you can do that? Either, you know, making you want to write more books or make more movies or just knowing you can exercise a different muscle.

1:17:08Like, what have you come away from that process with that you didn't have before?

1:17:11Jane Schoenbrun: I mean, first of all, like a daily creative practice, which when you make a movie, like you get to on you get to in like the writing of it and on set and in the edit to a certain degree like enjoy yourself creatively every day but it so often can feel like um like you you get to like do a little bit of the creative work to make the plan and then the executing of the plan is like starting a company um there's just so much responsibility and like managerial responsibility that you spend years on because you like want to see the thing through. And it's enjoyable in its own way. I do like it. But the book was the first time and the book, yeah, in many ways was a reaction to being exhausted after TV Glow and being like, my dream is to just wake up, make coffee, sit down and like play with the action figures in my brain.

1:18:06Mm-hmm.

1:18:09Jane Schoenbrun: And so, yeah, it was really the first time when I got to have that in a way that felt like, oh, I could do this every day for my life and have a really good and happy life. Because you can write all morning and then take a long walk and think about what you're going to write tomorrow and then cook dinner and hang out with loved ones. And have no meetings as a result of any of this. But I think also to your point, it was very empowering to realize that I could always do that you know and it was really the first time that like I felt the terror of the rejection of like the commercial forces of the film industry like stop having a little bit of a hold over me because like I mean it's still the worst nightmare right that like you write I write a script and I'm like oh my god I need this is the thing I need to make it that like that fate would be in the hands of this other system and that like you're always kind of, yeah, that's always hanging over you.

1:19:13Jane Schoenbrun: Whereas writing the book, yeah, and I loved writing the book and I think the book will mean something to people hopefully and I can always do that, you know? I can like disappear to my living room and do that. Which isn't to say that I don't want to make lots more movies, It's just like knowing that, yeah, I think I, as a person, just have a deep creative need to be expressing myself as an artist and knowing that like there are avenues that I have and skill sets that I have through which I can do that without fear of suppression or something. Yeah, options outside the capitalist machine. It's all any of us can ever hope for.

1:19:51Jane Schoenbrun: On the side of the capitalist machine. Someone's going to print the books, I guess. In the corner. in the corners.

1:20:01That does it for this week's podcast. We will have a bonus episode coming up this Saturday with another fun conversation with an Emmy nominee. Stick around for that. And then next week, we will have our regularly scheduled episode continuing our fall movie preview with another beloved return guest. In the meantime, this podcast is edited by Brett Fox and produced by Brett Fox and me. Our theme music is by Dave Gonzalez. Thanks again to our guest this week, Joyce Eng. Subscribe to the Prestige Junkie newsletter at TheInkler.com. Watch this podcast on YouTube if you're not already. You can also subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere else you get your podcasts.

1:20:40We'll see you on Saturday.