Fall Movie Preview Part 3: Netflix, Apple, Amazon, and the Oscar Streaming War

0:00South Park has three Emmy nominations, including Outstanding Animated Program, Outstanding Music and Lyrics for Peggy Rockbottom's Christian Woman, and Outstanding Character VoiceOver Performance, featuring Trey Parker as Satan. South Park, for your consideration. La Bola Negra is strangely similar to The Odyssey as well, in a lot of ways. They are strangely similar movies. Interesting. So to some degree, I almost don't think that, I mean, even though they're obviously about very different things, you know, like no grinder notification goes off during the Odyssey. And one does during the Bull of Negro in a really smart example of cross-cutting.

0:46Hi, everyone. I'm Katie Rich. This is the Prestige Junkie Podcast. And today we are continuing our fall preview series looking at the streamers. That is Netflix, Amazon, MGM, and Apple. They have very busy falls ahead of them. One of them has a bona fide hit already in the Oscar race. Joining me to talk about all of this, once again, my colleague, Chris Rosen. Chris, welcome back. Let's keep going. Let's do it. Love it so much, Katie. And joining us today to look at all of this ahead of time is the award season reporter and columnist for The New York Times, Kyle Buchanan. Welcome back, Kyle. Always happy to be here.

1:20Chris and I keep saying this is our favorite time of year where all these fall movies could be great. and it's nothing but potential. Do you feel the same? I love potential. It's the same reason I love trailers, you know? Look, I love the movies and it is exciting to get excited for the movies. That's true. And, you know, I'm trying to forestall the inevitable disappointment of sometimes, you know, like your favorite directors or your favorite actors, they don't hit a home run. And right now, you know, anybody could. Right now, everyone's a winner. It's exactly what we want. So we'll look ahead to all of those slates from these streamers.

1:56And then after that, you'll hear my conversation with David Harbour, who is an Emmy nominee for DTF St. Louis. All that coming up and more. Welcome to the show. All right, guys, we have a lot to talk about from just three companies. And one of them, I guess, true to form, is busier than the other ones. I mean, the question of streamers in the Oscar race is always, you know, can they really play with studios? We're in a studio-heavy time for the Oscars themselves. Chris, do you think the streamers are as competitive this year as they have been in the past? Less so? What's the outlook overall for you?

2:30I mean, it's an interesting year because it does feel like, you know, Netflix is Netflix and maybe they've got less... Compared to last year at this time, we were excited about J. Kelly and Frankenstein and House of Dynamite. And this year, it feels a little more muted. But still, they're going to have a lot in the race. And then you have Amazon MGM with Project Hail Mary, like you were referencing, obviously, is a huge hit and like there. So it feels like both a soft year and then also like, oh, like Project Hail Mary is going to be like a big Oscar movie. So that's great. But like, I'm curious to see how the Netflix movies do, especially how the Apple lineup does and like what the rest of the Amazon one is.

3:05I just find a lot more, maybe a more question marks this year compared to where we were last year. Kyle, do you think it's fair for us to lump all these together, given that Netflix has like this huge slate? The other ones are a little bit different. Does streamers make sense as a category for the Oscar race even? Anything looks like a huge slate until the movies actually come out, right? I mean, not all of these are going to hit. So it could be slim pickings. What I would say is both Amazon and Netflix have surefire best picture contenders. We know that much. Amazon has Project Hail Mary. That's getting nominated.

3:36Netflix has La Bola Negra. That's getting nominated. So we know two are for sure making the best picture race. And then past that, you know, in about a month and a half, we'll know a lot, lot more. Yeah. So let's start with the company that we don't know if it has a best picture contender, because Apple, as far as I my math says, just two titles, both of which are going to be at TIFF. So really in about a month and a week, we will know a lot about them. Tenzing is premiering at TIFF. It's opening on October 16th. And then Being Human, which is Sean Hader's follow up to Coda, is the TIFF opening night film.

4:12and it opens in November. I don't know much about Tenzing at all. So I will punt to that and just go to being human. It's a best picture follow-up, which is something we have to take really seriously. But as I think we all know, the TIFF opening night slot can really go either way. I can't figure out how much we ought to put into this. And maybe that's the right approach for the follow-up to Coda, which kind of was strong because it came as a surprise. Should we just keep expectations at that same level as the right way to deal with this? Yes, I think so. I mean, the TIFF opening night slot is like a tough beat.

4:42I just feel liked a little bit. And Coda was such a big runaway kind of like momentum thing. And I don't, I, I, all, this one just feels strange to me. And I'm also like, where is Apple in terms of like releasing these movies? They've kind of moved far away from that as like a theatrical thing. Like they're just not interested in, in doing that as much. Now that doesn't necessarily mean anything, but I just feel like, I don't know. I find the vibes around all of this stuff, but it's a inspirational story. Sean Hader, you could say like coming off of Coda. sure but I'm not like believing it right now sight unseen again lots of potential but sight unseen I'm not believing it yeah we should say Apple had a best picture nominee with F1 but that very importantly had a distribution partner from a studio and neither of both of these are being distributed by Apple which is kind of an odd spot for it do you think that's an important difference Kyle no not necessarily um I think I think almost always it comes down to the movie um you know on paper, this could work.

5:40It is a biopic. It's the story of a disability rights activist. So there's a meaty central role. You have Mark Ruffalo and the supporting cast who can help fill out the fact that, you know, Ruth Maitley, I think is how you pronounce her last name. She's the lead. People don't know her, at least not yet. So, but it's always going to come down to how good the movie is. You know, studios, they definitely come into play at times, but I think what people don't realize, unless they're covering this, is so many of these studios are, you know, hiring the exact same awards publicists. So it's all the same to a lot of voters.

6:23It's just getting, you know, the movies in front of as many voters as possible. So certainly, like, you know, if a studio is having a great year or there's an upstart, there might be an additional narrative, but there's no narrative that swamps the movie's narrative itself. It doesn't seem like either of these are likely to be like, oh, you made a ton of money the way F1 was. Like that wouldn't be the distribution strategy for it. So why not do, yeah, the micro-targeting, like you're saying? Well, I mean, you know, Apple didn't distribute F1 in theaters anyway. That was Warner Brothers. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned Ruth Madeley, Kyle.

6:58It seems worth noting right from the start that we have a very wide open best actress field, it seems. So I think the potential for Discovery of this actress who has worked before, it's not her first role or anything, but is a new face for most people. That seems like a real power for this. I mean, maybe similar to, if you want to go back to Coda, Troy Kotzer. That's a different size part, but he was someone who had worked but was not a familiar face. That's a good strategy for this. I'm guessing they're already looking in that direction. People love Discovery, but wait, Katie, I want to press you on something because before we started recording, you said that it was a week best actress race.

7:35And now you're saying it's wide open. And I'm really curious to hear, like, what are your thoughts on this best actress race? Why does it have you so entumbled? I guess that I am being a hypocrite because I don't like saying week in public because then it feels like it's discounting the people who are already out there. But I mean, you saw this last like or last week as we're recording this when A Place in Hell moved off the calendar. We were like, oh, Michelle Williams seemed like she was going to come cruising in here. And now we've got because we've got what Julianne Moore in the debut. We've got a couple of Cannes titles, like all of a sudden Gentle Monster.

8:08What's the third best actress potential? I guess Sandra Huller in Fatherland. But I don't know. None of them seem none of the performances that we have so far from Cannes or anywhere else seem to have people saying, oh, my God, this absolutely has to happen. Seems like there's a lot of potential for things to go up and down. Do you not agree? No, I mean, yeah, I like when it's wide open. I don't know that we have necessarily seen the Best Actor winner, but we've definitely seen two that feel, you know, like strong shots to be nominated for sure. We also have like the giant stars in the Best Actor race, which Chris and I have talked about.

8:40When you got Matt Damon and Ryan Gosling and Tom Cruise all like most likely being part of that conversation and then in Best Actress, that star power isn't quite there and you can say what you will about how we treat our famous actresses. I think that's very relevant. But it's just a different scale in the race, I think. Well, I was going to say that we had a pretty similar season last season where Best Actor was incredibly starry. And even people who didn't get nominated were major stars in the Best Actor race last year. You know, it's very upside down. Like for the last several years, the Best Actress race was where all the action was.

9:19you could have made, you know, in almost any season, a just as compelling Best Actress race, you know, past the five who actually made it in. You could probably have done it twice over. But now in Trump's America, it's all about the men. It's David Ellison's fault somehow. Fighting for scraps of Katie Rich's attention. And yours. You have to see some of what we're talking about here. I guess with the Best Actress race, though, and you're saying like Ruth Madley, right, for being human, like, oh, this could be like a breakthrough. Like, and you're right. Like, obviously there are so many like famous movie stars, like Matt Damon, Ryan Gosling, like talking about them, obviously like maybe being in there, Tom Cruise, et cetera, et cetera.

10:01Does it matter that then for Best Actress, there's like multiple, potentially multiple actors vying for that like breakthrough, we don't know this person yet role. Whereas like how many, like how many realistically, how many of those actresses can get in? And maybe in a year where it's lighter in terms of like the big names, does that actually help? Like, because you could have Indy Navarrete, right? Navarrete. Navarrete, sure. Indy Navarrete, you could have Ruth Madley. Have you two seen it yet? Have you two seen Obsession? I have, yeah. I finally did. I'm so, I gotta get there. I'm still such a chicken.

10:32By the time this airs, here's my vote. It's not that bad. I will have finally watched it. It's a little bit. It's pretty, there's one part that's really violent, but it's otherwise not scary. It's really not that bad. She could get in, certainly. Like, I do think it's like possible, but I'll be curious to see, can they all balance like being like, hey, pay attention to this discovery. And I'll be curious to see certainly like being human, I guess, to see how it does. And, you know, whatever, if it's a crowd pleaser, it'll play well at TIFF. That seemingly is probably what they're expecting, right?

10:56Like opening night and sure. I would say, you know, as long as a lot of these actresses are willing to sort of like camp out in LA and New York for a couple months, it's to their advantage to be a discovery. You know, best actress, certainly more so than best actor, is incredibly friendly to young discoveries, young ingenues. You know, it's easy to work that room. It's easy to work those voters and to get in. And we've seen that pendulum swing back after, again, a couple of years of older actresses prevailing in Best Actress. I think we're back in the sort of, you know, discovery ingenue phase.

11:33And you guys can tell me if I'm overlooking someone. Like Jesse Buckley, this time last year, we were like, Hamnet's coming. We all know the book. This is a huge part. She's been due. she was like in that kind of pole position to get launched up to winner status. I don't know that any of these discovery, like certainly not Ruth Madeley or Indy Navarrete, you know, Sandra Huller, maybe you could say that for, but I'm not even sure anyone has that kind of obvious like, oh, well, their time is coming soon spot that Jesse Buckley did this time last year. No, I mean, Jesse Buckley was going to be like the overdog season long swamper.

12:02You know, as soon as we saw Hamnet, that was clear. Yeah. You know, could that be Julian and more in the debut, we'll know soon. Yeah, I wonder if you can do that for your second Oscar. It's a real Frances McDormand. Yeah, you can if they like you. If the performance is great and, you know, if it feels right. The whole thing with the second Oscar, I mean, we really tied ourselves up in knots about like, I don't know, is it time for Emma Stone to get her second Oscar over, you know, Lily Gladstone getting her first? And the answer was that, honestly, voters didn't really care about time. If they like the movie the most, they'll vote for it.

12:42And they liked Poor Things a lot more than they liked Killers of the Flower Moon. So if the debut is strong, Julianne Moore is somebody who probably seems like by the end of her career, she should have two Oscars. And I don't think that they'd skimp. Yeah. Well, while we're talking about Apple before we move off of them and discoveries in acting races. We should say Tenzing also stars someone whose name I'm going to be working on how to pronounce. Jendon Fonsonk is my best guest, playing Tenzing Norgay, the Sherpa guide for Sir Urban Hillary, who's being played by Tom Hiddleston. It's an Everest movie.

13:17There's a lot of mountain climbing movies this fall. Have you noticed this? There's like two documentaries, I think, that Sinetic is representing, and both of them have huge mountain pictures in the slate. I was like, oh, we're really doing it this year. Tenzing is another Tiff premiere. Again, We don't know a lot about it, but do we think there's room for a total unknown in the actor race that's full of so many movie stars already? There's always room. God bless any young unknown who tries to make their mark in actor. It helps if you have an accent. They love that. But, like, you know how it is.

13:53I mean, I think it depends. I guess any of these people like that actor, certainly who I will not try to pronounce their name or any of these others. I mean, like at this point last year, we were like, oh, this again, that best actor race was like very starry and had like the rock and George Clooney and like all these movies ended up like not being what they what we had thought here in August. Right. So like you never know what's going to fall out. Like we have Matt Damon and Ryan Gosling, but if Digger isn't great or if something else doesn't work, like all of a sudden maybe there's room in there for somebody to pop up.

14:24But it is definitely harder, certainly, as Kyle is saying. Yeah. Wait, Kyle, another sidebar on this. Where are you on Digger at this point? A movie none of us have seen and that is promoting itself with a giant shovel and not a Venice premiere. Not a Venice premiere. How many chips do you have on Digger and Tom Cruise? All the same sad about the fact that it's skipping Venice. There are a lot of movies that, you know, once upon a time we would have expected to see at Venice. And I do appreciate the incredibly dishy, borderline gossipy report from the president of the Venice Film Festival as to why those films were not included.

14:59Yeah. But yes, Digger's skipping. You know, to some extent, I'm not shocked by that because Inyoritu must still be smarting somewhat from launching Bardo there. As I imagine the entire Netflix publicity team was as well, since they had to do that launch. Although Digger is not a Netflix film. Netflix and Inyoritu were going into that season thinking that they had, you know, a potential picture winner. And boy, didn't it. No, they did not. It bombed there. It basically was like a abandoned ship situation. And that's not, you know, an easy thing for for people like that to deal with. You know, look, always, always, always, you should not launch at a film festival unless you're certain you have the goods.

15:42But like, it's easy sometimes to think that you do. And then people will tell you quite, quite vociferously when you don't. At Venice, maybe more than other places. It seems to have been the reputation. So I do understand from whatever perspective, whether the film like is good or not, whether it be polarizing or not, why they might not be at Venice. But as somebody who traditionally goes to Venice, I'm sad to miss it. yeah I wanted Tom Cruise on that gondola real bad okay let's move on to Amazon MGM and we'll start with Project Hail Mary which Chris you and I just feel like we talked about like every other week for the last couple months so I will just go directly to Kyle you already said it has a guaranteed Best Picture nominee I certainly don't disagree with that Best Actor is competitive I feel like Ryan Gosling's in there I mean my big question with Project Hail Mary now and I don't think this is original either is that in this sharing the space with the Odyssey and Dune Part three, how is it going to fare coming back around in the fall?

16:38The Odyssey is something that, you know, you keep your eye on. Dune part three, I think people are assuming some sort of Return of the King trajectory for Dune part three, but Return of the King was a one of one situation. If anything, recent history has taught us that Oscar voters lose interest in an ongoing franchise. Dune Part II was, in my mind, the high point of the franchise so far, but it did not get the nominations and love that the first one got. You really can't point to a recent example of a film accruing more power as it goes. This was not shot. Top Gun Maverick, I guess, is your one exception, which is almost not at all the same thing.

17:25It's not the same. That's akin to Fury Road. Yeah. In that it's it's so far removed from the original as to be practically new again But like an ongoing series, you know whether it's Dune part 2 wicked part 2 whatever you Black Panther Wakanda forever, you know the the films Whether you'd say they were as good as the predecessor or not Just they simply like Oscar voters are ready for the fresh new thing. So they have I think the Dune part 3 team has a challenge ahead of them to say like, now you've got to start paying attention and you've, and we've got to revitalize this narrative, uh, in a way that did not happen on the second one, which, you know, the second one is great, but that didn't get the move any closer to a best director nomination either.

18:17So after that branch has rejected him twice, suddenly they're going to nominate him and he's got like winner potential. I don't see that. Um, But I am looking forward to that film and I think he's fantastic and he deserved nominations for those prior two movies. So again, there's a big battle ahead for Dune and that is not a battle that I think Project Hail Mary has to worry about. it owned its cultural moment it wasn't up against any other movie when it came out so it has a big piece of real estate in this awards calendar in this movie year um and you know they'll have to be smart about how they relaunch it but i have uh complete faith that they will do so well and to me the question you know isn't uh project hail mary versus dune it's like can Lorda Miller do what Dune wasn't able to do in the directing race and get in.

19:19That's a good way to think about it. I mean, I was going to ask you, Kyle, who literally wrote the book on Mad Max Fury Road. Chris and I have been talking about this race in terms of 2015. And you've got The Martian and Project Hail Mary right there together. The Odyssey. Is it The Revenant? Is it Mad Max? You can make up your mind. But does Project Hail Mary get overshadowed the way that The Martian did by something bigger than that? Do you think there's a lane for it to to win something and be able to make its mark uh what could it win hmm well look right like like let's be real if there was a win a best picture case for to win a best picture for project tail mary it's not gonna happen in the same year as the odyssey um this is the thing yeah well i mean yeah that is a thing uh you know you can't be like this is the big um uh financial success this is an example of studio filmmaking done right, et cetera, et cetera.

20:15I mean, you can and you will, but it's just not a winning case because you have an overdog that has that exact same winning case. This is something that Sinners came up against last year because so much of what you could say about Sinners, you could also say about one battle after another, you know? So it is a little difficult when another movie is working the same narrative as you, but is like bigger essentially. Can it win anything? To take to the governor's awards. So that's one advantage. You can't bring the Cyclops out on the campaign trail. Maybe there's a visual effects case to be made for Project Hail Mary.

20:53But I don't know. I mean, well, let me ask you two both. I mean, do you think there's any stopping the Odyssey? Chris? I mean, it would have to be like La Bola Negra, which we could talk about, or something smaller, I think. It seems like that would be the movie because we're saying Project Hail Mary is not going to beat the Odyssey at the Odyssey game. Dune Part 3, you're totally right, is a question mark and now has to come up against, we already know the Odyssey was good. We already love Project Hail Mary. So you're like, you got to compare it to those two, not just Dune Part 2. I don't know.

21:26It has to be something smaller or something like Coda-esque that's just like people love it. and it kind of, they get swept up in the moment and it becomes like kind of almost a social contagion of we have to win. This is the movie we want to win. But I don't know what that would be. On paper, maybe it's La Bola Negra, but I don't know. You have to Shakespeare in Love It. That's the other history we're repeating. Is it Sam and Prime Ryan versus like Shakespeare in Love, right? Well, this is something that we can get more into once we start really talking about La Bola Negra in earnest. But like La Bola Negra is strangely similar to The Odyssey as well in a lot of ways.

21:59in the way that it is cut, in the way that real locations are used, in the minimal or at least invisible usage of CGI. They are strangely similar movies. Interesting. So to some degree, I almost don't think that... I mean, even though they're obviously about very different things, like no Grindr notification goes off during The Odyssey and one does during La Bola Negra in a really smart example of cross-cutting. But they're more alike than you think, is all I'll say. So it's not a contrast. The debut has to be the Shakespearean Love or something. I don't know that there's as much daylight as you'd expect.

22:39Yes, the debut is a better example of that. I mean, the last time there was a Nolan overdog in the race with Oppenheimer, I actually did think that there was an example that could work there of Oppenheimer being the head movie and the holdovers being the heart movie. but it just never quite became strong enough to really challenge Oppenheimer. And I would say to the favor of the Odyssey, the Odyssey is more of a heart movie than Oppenheimer was. It's also more of like a guts movie. Like it's a very galvanizing movie, especially in its third act, which plays like gangbusters. There are moments that like could potentially bring a tear to your eye when you're watching them.

23:22So if anything, I feel like some of the weaknesses that Nolan has had in other awards contenders are not as glaring this time. Like, he's got a really, really strong contender. And like you were saying before, Kyle, too, if they like it, all this stuff is ancillary because if they like it, they'll just pick it. And if they like the Odyssey, to all your point, even though it's like, oh, is Nolan going to win again? We just did this with Oppenheimer, blah, blah, blah. They like Odyssey. It's just going to win. Like that would be it. But we'll see if something can beat it, I guess. If there's something that like more.

23:56We will. I mean, I'm very curious because I think this could be a cakewalk. But, you know, we'll see what the fall film festivals present. But there's the oppo narrative, the narratives Chris has been predicting is that you can go around saying, yeah, but is it as good as Oppenheimer? I mean, that's like the only thing I can think of. I know there are some people who think that. I think many people would say yes. Okay, so there you go. All right, well then. I mean, it's more successful than Oppenheimer. Certainly financially, yeah. Well, yes. Although, I mean, to be fair, like who would have ever foreseen like as big a box office as Oppenheimer did get?

24:26You would hope that the Odyssey could do as well as it did. But I mean, I've talked to people who like it more than Oppenheimer. Yeah. All right. Well, Chris, you're going to have to walk around doing your whisper campaign. No, I liked it. I liked it. I like Spider-Man more maybe, but I liked it. I still haven't even seen Spider-Man. I can't even argue with you about that right now. Why are you all not seeing these big popular movies? I'm going to. I was out of town. I will say this. You're acting like you're being dragged to the theater at gunpoint to see Obsession and Spider-Man. Here's what I'll say about like...

24:55Movie podcast host. I'll say this about Lord and Miller. It feels to me like a DGA nomination for sure. And then I don't believe... I don't know if they would get in for Best Director. I mean, look at that branch of snobby. That's really strong. Yeah. And if they get in, then it shows how strong it is. The other one we were talking about, in terms of winning the two, just to go back, like, I think you could say Screenplay maybe, right? And even though it's up against the Odyssey, Nolan didn't win for Oppenheimer. Now, maybe he has a narrative there to be like, oh, I didn't win for Oppenheimer.

25:23I should win for the Odyssey because it's so great. But who knows? Maybe people will be like, oh, it wasn't, it's not a writerly movie or whatever. But what if, like, if Sandra Huller gets in, I can honestly see her winning for Project Hail Mary because I think it's such a lovely performance and people love her. And if that's the one, like, we were saying that for Anne Hathaway winning for Odyssey, like, that's the one for her big year that's, like, the one thing. but what if it's Sandra Huller for Project Hail Mary if she somehow gets in she gets in at the Globe she maybe gets in at SAG and then gets in at the Oscars and wins I don't know I don't believe that but that would be like a toss.

25:55If Digger doesn't work for her even if the movie works or her parts aren't big enough or whatever like I I don't see Fatherland as being super strong for her and Best Actress I think other people like that movie more than me I don't hate that theory Chris I think it's very Digger dependent though. Her best performance that they're going to strongly campaign for is fatherland the movie is obviously not as like strong as project hail mary and i do see like an easy path for her to like get coattailed in as a nominee but as a winner it would be i mean i know it'd be tough kyle i know how fun i love surprises you gotta get anne hathaway in lead first and then you get uh wait but i know we keep talking about the odyssey and other things but kyle real quick anne hathaway leader supporting what do you think she should do i think she should go lead.

26:40I agree. I think why not? But I mean, like, but also this is dependent, like they're waiting to see how strong lead is. If it's not that strong, then they could run her in lead and open up like a little bit of ability to get Samantha Morton in for supporting. And I think, I mean, again, this is not none of this is set in stone, right? Like otherwise, they would have told us already but maybe Anne Hathaway doesn't want two supporting trophies maybe Anne Hathaway's like can I get a lead nomination I would love that you know I think she should so we'll see uh well we keep talking about other movies and not the rest of the Amazon slate which is maybe says something but Amazon has a bunch of other movies many of which are going to tiff as world premieres um there's a lot of them fit into your category of what you said Dudes Rock, Chris?

27:32Was that your theory? September was like Dudes Rock? Yeah, because I think Your Mother, Your Mother, Your Mother with Rahershal Ali is an action movie and then later on the calendar you've got I Play Rocky coming to TIFF and then Madden set for a Thanksgiving release last I looked up. Is this just Amazon trying to get that Reacher audience to come into theaters? Are they leaning on on Dudes, Chris? It seems like yes. I think Madden might end up being just prime streaming even. I don't even know. I thought that's what I saw. But the other ones, yes, it seems like, I mean, I Play Rocky feels like a movie I would absolutely love.

28:05And they're running back the Green Book playbook or the greatest beer run in the world playbook. Probably they would prefer the former versus the latter because it's a Peter Ferelli movie. I don't know. There's a version of that movie that would have been a big Oscar movie. And I think like an enjoyable thing with the previous Academy. I have no idea how people respond to it now, but they do like crowd pleasers. So if it is a crowd pleaser, then maybe that would work. I don't know. And then you have Anthony Ippolito, I guess, as the discovery actor, Kyle, but that would be tough to get in. But maybe he does the Stallone impression as he's going around.

28:40That would help. Well, but Stallone is so unpopular, as we learned when he lost that Oscar. But he's not involved in the movie. Exactly. I think that part is very important. Kyle, you ready to have Peter Farrelly back out there? Sure. No, the Stallone thing was interesting. I was just reminded of like that season when uh you know when you look on paper when you saw creed and you saw their performance you're like oh wow there's like something really potent here and you could go all the way and then i just started talking to so many people in la and hollywood who did not like him yeah one one like major player was like there's not a single person in my country club that likes that man and i was like well specific specific and wondering but also very important.

29:26Yeah, I mean, that's a demo. That's an Academy demo. This is again 2015. We're just really just running it back all over again. We are. But Kyle, what do you make of the TIFF world premieres for so many of these? Also Love of Your Life, we should mention from Rachel Morrison with Margaret Qualley is also going to be in there. Not a dude movie. But why did Amazon MGM go so hard on these TIFF premieres? Well, I'm hopeful for Love of Your Life because I think Rachel Morrison's previous movie, The Fire Inside, was really underseen. It's a really good movie that isn't exactly what you think it's gonna be as an inspirational sports movie it's kind of like what if the inspirational sports movie ended halfway through and then it's like well what do you do after when you thought all this stuff would happen for you and you still got to go on living your life which I haven't quite seen a movie quite like that so she's very talented I'm looking forward to what she does next what can we make of TIFF premieres hell if I know isn't that the vibe I think we're all like TIFF premiere that means we get to see it, but it doesn't necessarily tell us anything anymore.

30:27I mean, I think the crowd pleaser, what Chris said, the idea of like, if you want a movie that's going to play well with like people who might not go to a Venice premiere. And it seems like all of these have the potential to do that. But the question going forward is, I mean, yes, yes. If I had like a populist crowd pleaser, I'd take it to TIFF. But does that mean that the movie can draw crowds anywhere but TIFF? Look at Christie from last year, which played through the roof at that premiere. Like wow wow wow it couldn't have gone better But it never again was able to assemble more than 10 people in a room to see it Yeah you know glass onion for that matter or not glass onion um wake up dead man like really Well, I mean those movies always do well and obviously, you know that was much more seen than than christy Yeah, but yeah, so it's look yes Uh there's there's definite strategy involved in what you're taking where if you have a kind of like intellectual but like large scale awards blockbuster, you take it to Venice.

31:27If you have like the smaller one that you'd recommend to like your Oscar voter grandma, take it to Telluride. And if you have the big populist movie, take it to Toronto, whether it's good or not. That I think is the, well, no, that's the big question mark when it comes to Toronto is that you know that Toronto will program bad films that have stars in them. like the the there's a c there's a high ceiling but there's a much lower floor i think when it comes to toronto so you just don't know what you're gonna get never forget the strike year where all the films are that distribution that were independently made that had stars and then were allowed to play and boy were there some rough rough times directed something especially if that actor should not have directed anything it's playing a tiff watch out uh important question do we all wish we were seeing verity at tiff i'm imagining how fun that press screening would be if verity uh starring anne hathaway was on this lineup i think it'd be a blast

32:27i'm not uh i as i think i said before we were recording i'm like exactly the demo to read colin hoover i'm not a fan of her books but i'm a fan of anne hathaway and the year that she's having and i feel like i've seen that trailer a hundred times and it looks wild like maybe i'm just writing off the housemaid like vibes i had such a good time with that one um i mean it seems like her anne hathaway's year has been so good even this movie's a disaster it's not going to hurt her but i'm hoping it's just like a little extra fun trashy boost to the great year she's having it's fine yeah i mean but look the housemate is great the housemate is like a movie that completely understands what it is and we'll see if verity or any calling hoover movie can be that Is this, is Michael Showalter the director of Verity?

33:08Yes, yes. What a strange career. I can't make heads or tails of that one. Director of a Oscar winning, best actress winning performance. So more credit to him. I think they see Michael Showalter in, I mean, you know, again, to bring up The Housemaid, this is something that Paul Feig thrived on to some extent. I mean, Paul's one of one. He's very specific. But I think that a lot of the time when studio executives are hiring somebody to direct their movie about a woman, they're like, but can it be a guy? Just so that we're not double underlining something. And that is why, like, a lot of Anne Hathaway's, like, more, you know, sort of like traditional female aimed films are directed by men.

33:58And Michael Showalter, for that matter, because he's directed her before. What did he direct before? Ivy of You, but he also did countless movies. Oh, no. I mean, I know he's got the big stick. For me, for the Baxter, which I love. He did Tammy Faye. Like, you know, he has carved out a very unlikely reputation as director of women's pictures, as they used to call them. That's true. I'm still going. Okay, so that's Amazon. Let's get to Netflix. And let's get to Kyle. I'm trying to remember if I saw you make this prediction in person at Cannes or after the fact, because LaBella Negra premiered after I'd left.

34:33I still haven't seen it. Chris and I are getting there soon. But you said 10 minimum best picture, or I think double-digit Oscar nominations for LaBella Negra. I mean, since then, there hasn't really been, hasn't done anything since Cannes, right? Like, it's screened for some press. It's going to really have its big fall launch. So nothing has changed your prediction on that front, it sounds like. No, that's a double-digit nominee for sure. um you'll see when you watch it that like you know independent of the fact that the movie is really wonderful the tech elements are so superlative it's it's one of those things where it's just like you name absolutely every tech category and it's a major contender for all of those um you know can it win in the year of the odyssey perhaps not but like like costumes production design, like scores, like it's, it's, it is loaded.

35:26So yes, it's, it's in a really good spot. Since you saw it before Netflix picks it up, did Netflix feel like the right place for it? Do you think they can give it the push that this movie deserves? Everybody assumed it would be Netflix, which is not to say that Netflix didn't fight hard to get it. Um, you know, Netflix certainly has a history with international films that sort of over-deliver, that get into Best Picture and a bunch of other places. Netflix doesn't have to worry about the theatrical component as much, so they can create the appearance of an incredibly strong contender without any of the minuses of how it's doing in theaters.

36:10So, yeah, I mean, and obviously, people will draw comparisons to previous Netflix movies that are not in English. You want to name any in particular? Like Roma and Amelia Perez. Yeah. So, you know, there's a precedent for this movie to deliver on what they're planning for it. But this seems stronger as like a, you know, across the board Oscar player. I don't want to say traditional Oscar player because the definition of an Oscar movie has changed so much but both Roma and Amelia Perez had their challenges in terms of being divisive and appealing to all audiences it feels like Lobo La Negra again I haven't seen it it's just kind of more of an across-the-board player um uh what made you feel that Roma was divisive I'm curious I mean I like I saw Roma twice and tried to love it both times and couldn't quite get there I think it had like some historic sweep and then felt kind of limited see it's okay now enough time has passed.

37:07The statute of limitations is long gone. I think we're fine on that. I think we can admit it. It's a respect, don't love Roma. Well, and Roma was a head movie, not a heart movie, like Power of the Dog. Well, yes and no. I mean, like a lot of people bawled while they watched Roma. I guess that's true. And I think Emilio Perez has to get it incomplete because I do think if it was in a bubble and that Carla Sofia Gascon did not happen. I'd never tweeted. It probably would, I mean, I don't think it's impossible to say that would have won. I still believe that. Like, I think that would have, that was on the trajectory to win.

37:39Despite all the other complaints about the movie from the trans community and from people who are from Mexico and all these different things, it felt like that was still the movie that Hollywood loved until they had to not love it. So I think they could have won with that. Yeah. I mean, I said it last season, but, you know, Amelia Paris was not regarded as polarizing by the industry, by Academy voters. They thought that was the most progressive pick in the race you know the social media bubble is not the same as as the oscar bubble as the industry the musical part of it like there are plenty i'm sure you've talked to plenty of these oscar but like i mean like plenty of people really did but there's a there's a cap on a musical for some people not me but um yeah i mean there is and and just as unfortunately there will be a cap on like a gay story uh which you know la bola negra i mean for me it's energizing and galvanizing to watch something that is made in this sort of like classic Hollywood epic tradition, but is so strong and assertive in its gay themes, because this is a movie that looks like if you made it in Hollywood, you know, if you made the American version of it, that it would cost$100 million.

38:51Like it's that lavish looking. And I've never seen anything, you know, any major gay movie that It wasn't essentially like kind of intimate by necessity, you know. Do we know how much it cost? They haven't said it. I mean, essentially like 20 million dollars converted. It's pretty impressive. Working at the absolute peak of their powers and they shot in real locations and it looks incredibly expensive, this movie. so before moving on for La Bola Negra Penelope Cruz seems like of the you know the name brand actresses in this her England clothes it feels like she has the biggest part in this is this her movie and not the invite or bunker or is it going to be a tough decision well we'll see bunker right we haven't seen it yet um the invite depends on how strong the invite ends up being at the end of the year um it had it had a good moment this summer though and you know there's there's opportunity for it to relaunch um i mean it's definitely a great year for penelope and she will be fronting this movie and helping introduce it to people in a way that is probably going to recall jamie lee curtis with everything everywhere you know again not not a big role in that um but certainly a juicy one and penelope she has about a 10 minute stretch of la bola negra but like they're such a good 10 minutes.

40:15They're really good. So if you love this movie, it definitely feeds into a narrative that could get her nominated. You know, I don't know that it's substantial enough that it could win against, you know, like a really big performance that ends up in supporting. But like, yeah, there's an ability to like get her in. What I'm curious about is, Netflix is going to have a lot of these people in all seasons. So if they can do a great job introducing us to or introducing the town to other people in this movie, there's room. If people really love this movie, there's room for like Guitarra de la Fuente, especially because you can have him singing a song and he's a really emotional performer.

41:04So if people are coming to go see him at a, you know, something where he'll be performing songs from the soundtrack, you know, you fall in love with this guy and that helps build his candidacy. And I think a supporting actress that people are maybe sort of like underrating because maybe they haven't seen it or, but who I think is really juicy in this movie is Lola Duenas. she plays one of our lead's mothers and she's got really juicy scenes and she's in it a tad more than the other supporting actresses so I do see like a path where she could kind of get in if the movie over delivers that's cool I like the idea of Penelope Cruz and Anne Hathaway trying to get their second supporting actress when when they're both stars who should have a lead actress but yeah well I mean listen you know like both Penelope and Sandra Huller there's there's room for them to to, you know, be amongst the double nominees in a category, you know, let's test that out now that we've decided that's, that's something that can be permitted.

42:09Let's see if one of those two women can do it. All right. So Lobolo Negro feels like Netflix is obvious number one priority for the season. And obviously these things change over time again, Jay Kelly. But Chris, if you had to guess, like looking at what else they have, do you think there's an obvious number two in this list of what else is up there? I mean, I guess I would say Ink. I feel like they're very high on that. They just picked it up. It's going to Venice. It seems like kind of a timely thing where maybe they feel like they could get it more because the other ones feel like more targeted, like Gentle Monster feels like an actress play, right?

42:42And so I just feel like Ink maybe has more crossover beyond that best actor, best supporting actor category. But I don't know, Kyle, what are you thinking there? I don't know. I mean, I haven't seen Ink. I think Inc. is going to be a good supporting actor play for Guy Pearce. Beyond that, we'll find out. Gentle Monster, that is definitely going to be a big best actress push for Lea Seydoux. She's really good in it. I really liked that movie and felt that it deserved a little bit more love in Cannes. I thought it was really strongly directed. It stayed with me. And there's like no women directors in the race.

43:20So that's a strong lean for it to have as well. Yeah. I mean, like, look, I'd be I'd be so happy if Marie Kreutzer, who directed that, ends up getting awards traction because it's really amazingly directed. But she got like no notice for that at Cannes. So but I but I know how much Netflix believes in Lea Seydoux, like Lisa Tabak, who runs their award shop. Like she really, really believes in Lea and will be pushing her hard. And if the best actress race is a little bit permeable, as it seems to be right now, like definitely don't count out Lea Seydoux's ability to get in there. You know, she's been around for a while and has, you know, amply proven herself.

44:04And she hasn't quite had that one vehicle that that Oscar voters can latch on to. But if Netflix contextualizes this well, then it could be that. So it's OK to call it permeable, but not weak is what it was what you're telling me. Yeah, I'm doing the like real estate upsell. room for potential but then obviously i think the big question mark is uh cliff booth yeah you know which you know uh they haven't seen so like netflix can't project anything you know confidence or uh uncertainty like one way or the other so not until that movie actually reveals itself to even the people inside the company will we really know what we're getting there when do we even think we will see it like it's not it doesn't even feel like it can last minute possible like one battle after another did that like tiff sneak thing where it played while everyone was on their way to tiff but I don't it seems like it might not even be done in time to do that no it won't be even if it's great they don't even know if that's the official title there's no okay there's a lot of there's a lot of like it'll be ready and it when Fincher says so and it'll be whatever Fincher says it is and until they know it, like, we don't know it.

45:19Like you were saying too, like with Dune Part 2 being even better than Dune, but like, I feel like we're all, I love One Battle. I mean, One Battle. I love Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I'm very excited for Cliff Booth, whatever the hell it's called, whenever it comes out. But I'm like, do we actually think they're even going to, like the Academy will like want to revisit this whole thing again? I guess if it's great, sure. But like, maybe not. I mean, Dune, like you said, Dune maybe 2 is better than Dune Part 1 and it dropped in nominations. I don't know. I'm like not concerned about this movie because I think it's going to be really good, but I question in terms of how, I don't think it's locked in for like 10 nominations, like immediately sight unseen.

45:57If it's right, maybe, but like, who knows? I don't know. And this is such a unique scenario, right? Like another major director taking over and shooting it like he'd shoot it, which is completely different than how Tarantino would. But, you know, both men have a history of their department heads getting nominated. and are incredibly persnickety about how they put together the aesthetic of a film. So you'd think the tech elements would be superlative and at the very least, it's going to contend in those sorts of categories. And that the fact that it is a completely different vibe, you'd expect at least, that Fincher would bring might actually be a refresh that would help it get nominated in, you know, the same categories as before.

46:49But that's the question mark. To feel more like a Top Gun Maverick than a Dune Part II. Yeah, I mean, like Dune Part II, it's like, you know, it didn't get as many nominations as the previous one because they're like, well, we've seen that already. We know what that is. Wicked Part II style. We already know. We already did this. That's the nightmare scenario. I was not supposed to mention Wicked Part II. Netflix, I'm sorry for bringing up Wicked Part II while we're talking about Cliff Booth. I apologize. So it's a big old question mark. While we're talking about things that they're high on and Chris and I have heard a lot about this from them internally and I bet you have too, Kyle, is Possible Love, the Li Cheng Dong movie that's going to Venice which none of us have seen as far as I know but that's another auteur he directed Burning seven or eight years ago.

47:27It's been a while since he's got a new movie. And that just feels like someone who a lot of cinephiles really love who if this movie hits well could really have a breakthrough moment. Have they been talking it up to you too, Kyle? Maybe. Yeah, no, I have not seen it. So I'm very curious, like, you know, just as somebody who was super intrigued by Burning to see what he has come up with here. Kyle, we were talking earlier about how the Venice lineup is a little bit thinner than it has been in past years. Does that mean that like if possible, Love or Inc or Wild Horse 9, for that matter, which we didn't talk about here.

48:05Do you get Venice to yourself in some way as opposed to having to compete if it's a more stacked lineup? yeah um i mean i think that the way that venice is laid out it's like the most it's it's a very civilized version of can can is such a like insane 10 car pile up um you know where where often the scheduling is is not advantageous i mean i think this past year at can you know Bola Negra screened and then like truly right after that was Lucas Donne's Coward. And I think Coward is the strongest film Donne has made. But, you know, if we're boiling it down to like a double feature of Gays at War, then La Bola Negra won that battle.

48:54So there are fewer films in Venice and there tends to be just too big, too big for our purposes, movies a day, sometimes just one. Uh, so it's, it's a lot easier to own, uh, a day of Venice, uh, than it is at other film festivals. What I think actually would be more advantageous to some of these movies would be to have, you know, some of the bigger movies that people might've expected, whether that was a digger or social reckoning or what have you to get more attention on Venice so that when you had your day, everybody would be paying more attention. It'll be interesting to see who We saw the Telluride attention instead.

49:34Maybe that's where the social reckoning emerges. This is a shocker at Telluride. It's actually finished and here it is. I mean, I'm expecting the debut to be the big one at Telluride. Yeah, that feels right to me. Well, OK, we did all the streamers. This is very exciting. No one has a thin slate. Everyone has so much to get into. And Kyle, we'll see you in Toronto to see if being human fever takes over the entire city. It's going to be fun. I can't wait. I can't wait to turn some of these question marks into exclamation points. And hopefully not like a womp womp thumbs down sign. Just excitement.

50:08Yeah. Dot, dot, dot. Ellipses. Let's move on. Well, we will see you there and everyone should go read your awards season coverage in the meantime and we'll see you back here soon. Bye. Please stay tuned. I'll be back in a moment for my conversation with David Harbour.

50:25South Park has three Emmy nominations, including Outstanding Animated Program, outstanding music and lyrics for Peggy Rockbottom's Christian Woman, and outstanding character voiceover performance featuring Trey Parker as Satan. South Park, for your consideration.

50:49Now let's hear my conversation with David Harbour, who is a double Emmy nominee this year, both as supporting actor in a limited or anthology series for his role on DTF St. Louis and as an executive producer of the series. As you will hear in our conversation, the show, which is created by Stephen Conrad, was really David's labor of love as well. He helped push it through years of development and worked with Stephen Conrad to have this vision of this really tragic comic show about people living in the middle of the country, getting involved in weird sexual escapades, but also a show that's just about people and sweetness and the desire to be loved by somebody else.

51:29David's character Floyd really embodies a lot of that sweetness. It was also a big leap for him, as he tells me, coming off of 10 years of Stranger Things and carrying a gun and fighting off supernatural creatures, he wanted to do something really different and really interesting, which is exactly how DTF St. Louis became so special. Hear all of that and much more in my conversation with the Emmy-nominated star of DTF St. Louis, David Harbour.

51:57So, obviously, I want to talk about your acting work on DTF St. Louis, but I kind of want to start with your executive producer work, because... Hey, I love that. Wow, nobody wants to talk about... Look at that. I mean, sometimes the EP is like they put their name on something and they walked away. Clearly, that is not what you did here. Wow. You've done your research. I love it. Well, Jason Bateman, I think he said, like, this was David's baby. And, you know, Steve Conrad's obviously part of that, too. But I like that. I think you described this in another interview of your thinking, you know, Stranger Things is coming to end.

52:29What is something really cool that I can do? And your character, Floyd Smirnich, is maybe the, like, wonderfully least cool person on television. But this show is very cool. So, I mean, it's kind of the basic origin story question, but why was this the cool thing? Why did this come to you and say, oh, yeah, this is this is the cool thing I've been looking for? I mean, I don't I don't love the framing of like cool because it makes it seem like I was trying to pull one over. Like do like let you know that like just because strangers think I'm going to show you. It's like it wasn't that wasn't the impulse at all.

53:05It's like I, you know, for 20, for 30 years, I've been like an actor and been, um, but doing like small plays in New York and really exploring lots of stuff. And then I did get really famous sort of from stranger things. And so, um, for a lot of people, that was like a discovery of me, but it's like stranger things in my life is really just a continuum of a lot of different work, you know? So this was really like four years ago. I got this article and it started to make me think about like middle age and the things I like to watch on television. Was it sent to you like as a, hey, would you want to adapt this?

53:47Or was it like a, hey, read this New York, New York article, right? Yeah. Yeah. The gestation of the idea was from that article. But there were other articles as well. And there was like other sort of thematics and stuff. and it was more just like i was looking to be honest it's gotten so hard for me to watch stuff anymore like i i um i like i really like white lotus season one i remember like losing my mind about him in the pool like being like an ape and sort of this thing where you can express something uh very primal and biological underneath the cover of the societal thing that's happening the civilization thing that we're all trying to do and how we're all just like a bunch of animals like tearing each other apart that's sort of what i felt like that that that piece was about and i was like god and also just the fact that it's so funny and the characters are so rich and i was just like i'd love to do i just want to do stuff that i want to watch sure and this seemed to have like a container or like a framework of something about middle age but it also had this coen brothers like wackiness to it where the characters are larger than life and there was like a heightened reality to the whole thing um and i you know i just wanted to live in those worlds um and i think the other thing that's really sort of became important was this idea that you know I think I've felt like we live in a cynical world or the world's becoming more.

55:27I just see it even in terms of like simple ways. Like I grew up in the eighties with like a James Bond who was, you know, doing weird stuff with sharks with laser beams and things like that. And then it's become like Daniel Craig, like really beating the crap out of people with machine guns and stuff. And you're just like, OK, we've strayed from James Bond's light that we had. No, it's just that we've, it's just, and not to say that that should be the, you know, like there's waves of culture. I love Daniel Craig James Bond, but, um, but it does like have a certain point of view, which is that the world is a dark place.

56:02You have to be hard to live in it. You have to be a strong, only the strong survive. There's like a, you know, and I think, um, there was something about, um, wanting to get some whimsy, uh, into the world and to subvert. the dominant narrative that people are worse than they appear to be. Because I tend to find that people are better than they appear to be. Well, and that's kind of the like, it's not a bait and switch of the show, but you start off the show, you're like, here's this sad guy. He's dead at this pool. Like these people all have their pitiful suburban lives. And you kind of go into it thinking it's going to be like an excavation of the sadness here.

56:42And there's a lot of sadness, but there's so much heart to it. And that's what your character Floyd is. It's like the more you know about this guy, the more like genuine and open he seems to be. And I wonder if that's something you and Steve Conrad, the showrunner, like talked about. It's like, we're going to get people in in one way and they think they know these people, but that sweetness kind of becomes the dominating force, even though it's such a sad story. I mean, I think that's the dominating thing in the whole thing. And Steve and I did speak about it. It really is, you know, really, it really is his genius that created this, but I definitely love this ideology that you start with the concept of i don't want to ruin it for as this is this is might be spoilers for a while i mean okay okay we can we can talk about it right okay so the um it starts with a this narrative of suburban noir which is that there's a sex app and people are going to be on it and they're going to be cheating and then there's a murder and like and they usually in stories like this in like the new york post or whatever it's like you know the oh and then we realize later on he had a whole other family or like he was in a cult and like, and I think the, the fun thing about our show is that the sex act is really a dud.

57:55It's like me kissing Peter Sarsgaard and like, that's it. And then the, the suburban noir is a dud because there really is no murder. The murder is middle age or the murder is shame itself. So, so the, it's, it's always fun to, and as you say, Floyd gets sweeter. Also Jason's character gets sweeter. So does Linda's. Linda's who you frame initially as pretty cold, like gets to be, you understand the survivor nature of her and how much dedication she has to her son and how beautiful that is. So I think that like, you know, in this particular world, I think it's an important cultural narrative that goes against sort of a mainstream media vibe of like, you know, we're going to attack everybody in this and there's going to be heroes and villains.

58:42to go like, maybe nobody's at fault. Maybe like we can, it's just a tragedy. And I think it's so beautiful. Did you feel like you were working also against this idea of like flyover state? Like, you know, everyone in here has like these sad pitiful lives and there are things, you know, like a cornhole party, like it's just a funny phrase, even though many of us have played cornhole and enjoyed it. So you're like, you're playing with some of that, but it's not falling into a condescension trap. I think, you know, that can happen a lot of times. Like, how'd you guys work around that? I mean, that was really important to me.

59:12I'm like, you know, I'm a, I mean, I'm, I was born in, uh, Yonkers, but my whole family's from Houston, Texas and my whole extended family. I used to go down there and I, you know, I, uh, I don't have that same sort of attitude of, uh, as you say, like the discounting of those people so it was always very important to to me to ground them i mean even floyd's goodness to ground that in moments when he's mean or moments when he's you know whatever to really three-dimensionalized people because yeah you know everyone you meet if you start talking to them for at least 10 minutes you'll find that they have the same similar tragedies to you um similar uh successes to you they might be on different different worlds or different realms, but like, we're all, we're all just people.

1:00:05And I do think there's something out there very much in our culture more than any others that is trying to divide people. But I think that at our heart, when you really just talk to anyone, I think you, you find common ground. I know you guys didn't film in St. Louis, but have you gotten a read on how St. Louis, is there like a pride of being represented or like, why don't we have this sex app? like what's the feedback i've heard a couple i've heard a couple people fromst louis say they really like the show but i've never i went after we filmed it uh just because i'd never been to st louis and we filmed the whole thing in atlanta sorry and chicago for a little bit for the i spent a lot of time i mean that's part that's part of the that's part of the joy though too is like the crews down there i know very well and in fact a lot of the crew on dtf were similar the same people who shot stranger things oh yeah and they um they watched me be a really hard you know hard machine gun toting hopper going after you know demogorgons and stuff and then dancing around my underwear with jason bateman and they were they accepted me on both realms i have to say they never rejected me it's gonna be easier to dance around in your underwear when you have the crew that you know i didn't think about that not if that crew's been watching you play like a tough cool chief hopper for 10 years you're like oh you're like oh geez guys watch this this lives inside me too um i was very pleased that they didn't reject that now you're even closer i went tost louis for like i went there for three days just to check it out just to walk around and stuff and uh it was very interesting but um the show hadn't come out so nobody had seen it i don't know what they feel about us inst louis i really have no idea gotta go find out I mean, I feel like someone else from the middle of the country is like anytime you get mentioned, you're just like, yeah, we're here too.

1:01:55Everyone gets very, probably Indiana probably feels similarly after Stranger Things. So, yeah, everyone gets to be proud of something. Yeah, I don't know if they love it in front of DTF. I don't know if they love like second billing to the phrase DTF, but maybe. Let's hope. Yeah. To go back to the executive producing part of it, you know, part of shepherding a show is just like sticking with it and dealing with things changing. and this show in particular evolved so much from your original idea of it. So just what was that process for you like? Was it revelatory in any way about what it takes to get something new or what, you know, compromises or changes or all of that part of it?

1:02:29What did you take from seeing it through from beginning to end like that? Yeah, it was a complete neophyte and I had no idea how hard it is. But also how fulfilling it is, you know? I think, you know, I think, I think what it comes down to is like, I can get very, you know, I, I have a certain taste and a certain standard. And I can be very hard on myself. And I like that. I like that. I like that in other people too. When I work with other people that have those high standards and are really intense about what they do, I like it. But I did notice I was like things actually do develop and get better if you give them time.

1:03:20And if you just take your foot off the gas, you don't have to. I push sometimes too hard. And I guess I learned, you know, there were times even during this when I was like, you know, we were because you guys four years a long time. Right. So you're like, you know, there were times during this where I was like, oh, it's just never going to be, never going to add up. It's never, nothing's going to make sense. Even though the initial pitch made sense, we'd get in whirlpools and it's just the worst thing ever. It's going to be the death knell of my career too. I'm going to be playing like, you know, this weird fat guy with a weird penis and I'm going to think I'm an idiot.

1:03:57Oh, so you were like, the show will get made, but it'll be the bad version and like all of this will have been for nothing? I don't know. Like I went through all of that. Yeah, like the show will never get made. The show will get made. It'll be humiliating, like all of it. And I was just like, you know, and then you start to realize that there's a process to everything. And I think that when you get, if you let go of the hardlineness and go like, okay, it's a C right now. I want it to be an A, but it's going to take six months to just work on it a little bit, talk about it, leave it alone for a week, work about it, talk about it.

1:04:33Yeah. And things actually do get better. That faith I didn't have, now I really have. And as I'm working on stuff, producing stuff in the future, stuff comes in, you're like, this is not good. I was like, it'll get good. I know where to go. We'll figure it out. And I think that faith is really nice. Is there a part of it where you get a note from the studio or producer, whoever, and you're just like, no, absolutely not. This can't be what the show is. And then eventually you're like, oh, wait, that actually, you know, the notes process can be so fraught. I mean, I'll tell you, honestly, I'll tell you a big one that was, um, I had a problem with and I was wrong.

1:05:09Um, I fought with Steve about, um, the tiger, tiger, Jason, when Jason creates a tiger, tiger profile, I was like, it shouldn't be a man. It should be a woman. It can be like a woman who's not very attractive or like whatever, but like, it shouldn't be a man because we don't want to make him. He's not gay. Like he wouldn't go. And Steve was like, no, no, that's the point. but the idea of the boner became very important. Like the physical expression of a man's validation of someone's attractiveness. The biological representation of that. And I was like, I argued, argued, argued. And finally I said, okay, I trust you.

1:05:47And I'll let go. And I let go. And then it was, I think he's absolutely right. Like some of those monologues that were so mysterious to me, even as we were shooting. Like he has one on the basketball court where he talks about like, you know, even as I say it, it's so funny. Like the dialogue is so funny. Like nobody writes like this because I've been thinking a lot about penises. Penises? Penises how? Penises like boners. Boners how? Boners like how they're honest. And like there's something about that where I was like, you know, I do think that stuff really reads out of me. There's a level on the show where it's like the biological as opposed to the societal.

1:06:26and I think that Floyd, it's the reason why Floyd dies is because he can't reconcile the fact that he has this biological need for closeness to someone that he can't find with his wife and it kills him. So the male thing and the boner thing was really important. And so do you just start pointing me like - It's a funny word too. I mean, you just can't help it. You're just like, oh, who uses that word? Children use that word. You're at work arguing about boners. You're like, really? Like, is this what my job is doing? For sure. There were funny things with, like, HR and stuff where you have to do those HR meetings with corporate and stuff.

1:07:11And they're like, you know, you can't talk about it unless it's related to the show. And I was like, whoa, this show, man, we are screwed. Like, it's nothing but, like, all we're talking about all day is, like, boners and stuff. Yeah. Well, yeah, you got Richard Jenkins trying, like, writing the initials for ass play on his pad instead of writing it down. Oh, my God, that's an amazing moment. That's an amazing moment. Yeah. AP. AP. I talked to him a couple days ago, and he was like, does this seem like what the guy would do? Like, the most straightforward way of thinking about it. Oh, my God, that was so genius.

1:07:39I saw that in the cut. I was like, I can't believe he did that. So you're in, I guess, as, you know, the EP, you're in the edit room. Like, you're working with Steve, like, in the post-process, too, of putting the show together. Yeah, for sure. So how, I mean, the tone on this is so tricky and all shows are tricky tones in some way or another, but like the comedy and the sadness and the heartfelt, it's like, it's a lot to string together. How much of that came together for you guys as you were putting the pieces together and kind of realizing how to grade eight, you know, grade eight that and make it work?

1:08:10Well, I think that was really like a constant zhuzhing, you know, in the writing, in the development, and then in the shooting, and then in the edit, is that because you really do have to walk this fine line of

1:08:28you don't want to gild the lily, right? You don't want to like point to it. I found it even in terms of like, you know, Linda Cardellini came in and read for Carol and she just nailed it in a way that I hadn't seen before. And I stole so much of her performance. I was like, oh, she gets how to do this tone. Like there's something about, there's something about if you play too hard into it, it breaks. But if you just bend it a little bit, because the dialogue is so specific, like even what we just talked about, that little chunk of like, I've been thinking about penises. Penises how? Penises how they're honest.

1:09:10Honest boners. So it's a lot of like, it feels rhythmic in a certain way, but if you lean too far into it, it breaks. And I think that we found that in the writing, we had that. And then even in the shooting, sometimes Jason and I would improv, kind of go off, do our own thing. We'd break up big scenes. And then sometimes we'd stick right to it because it was so good. And then in the edit, you know, I think Jimmy does such a good job of shooting it in such a beautiful, like, artistic way. um and then yeah it was just constant like okay do we need we only need one joke here we don't need two yeah like it was constantly like refining that and that and that's a testament to the brilliance of the hbo executives too oh interesting hbo has their own cadillac brand that they understand very well and they kill it those people franny orci and chris and tala and casey are just like really good at what they do.

1:10:13So sometimes we would have to push back on them because they have their strength of their brand. And we had to go like, guys, our thing is different. But sometimes we'd go like, yeah, you guys have this great taste. Like we should let you zhuzh this a little bit. Yeah, it was interesting to do this on the same network as the White Lotus you were talking about is, you know, sparking your mind. But it isn't really like the White Lotus, but it kind of is. And I don't know if that's like an active conversation you have to have, because they don't want it to be a copy of the White Lotus either. but it kind of has to sit on the shelf next to it.

1:10:42And that's a tough thing to figure out. Yeah, it definitely is its own. It's definitely its own thing. But, you know, it has it's got tonal quality similar somewhat also to the chair company. Like they're doing a lot of stuff that's kind of on the edge. Like you don't know if it's comedy or drama. And you're sort of like, I think that's a ripe. I think that as we move forward in terms of long form entertainment, entertainment, I think it's actually really important to start to genre bend more and more, because I think people can go on their phones and watch something funny, or they can go on their phones and watch someone cry.

1:11:16So it's like, what are we really sitting down for TV to do? Like, I think we're sitting down for a real positive heartwarming thing, to be honest, which is like an old school idea. But I also think we're sitting down to not know what it is, to not understand it. Do you think of DTF as heartwarming in the end? i do people tell me it's just super dark people are like oh my god i bawled my eyes out like it's super dark your kid is like i was like what it's nice he's super nice he's got a kid he's like his kid is psychotic it's like throwing milk around they bring up all these things that i forget and i just remember the sweetness of like me on the on the swing with jason bateman going like i got a hit it's a guy but it's a hit it's so nice to get a hit um so i think that it i think it's sweetness like sweetness is a product of its tragedy is that it's it's not tragic in terms of like oh jason murdered him it's like oh he he couldn't live with the complexities of this world and that's fucking sad but there's also something at least it's it's original for this you know a lot of times a lot of times i guess what makes me sad is the banal sort of copy of a copy of a copy that I see promulgated through our media all the time.

1:12:35And at least there feels something very original about this guy's journey and about us watching him and about watching what makes all of them tick, really. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I've seen the show talked a lot about in terms of like the male loneliness epidemic that we talk about. Yeah, for sure. And that's what these characters say out loud. I think, you know, I'm just really lonely. And at the end of the show, all he wanted was to be loved and he really was. And it was not enough. But like, who among us doesn't want just like that level of two people who like love you that much right yeah and i think that those scenes with him him and jason are so um like so i just giggle in a way like a little like a little boy like there's just something so vulnerable about these two men who are trying to communicate in this way and who and you know and there's just such beauty like when he saves the kid at the pool and like just their openness around each other's needs and each other's wants and who each other are and accepting of each other.

1:13:34And I think the weird thing is, yeah, I mean, I guess the real tragedy is that Jason's character sort of bails out on him in the end. Yeah. Not that he doesn't accept him. It's just that biologically he can't get aroused or whatever. Back to boners. It's just, yeah, it's just biology. And then his son and the whole thing. But it really is, it's a funny thing about like, they're all well-intentioned. It's just that biologically there's something going on that's more profound. Yeah. So as we get to wrapping this up, you're talking about doing more development. Obviously, there's plenty of things you can't talk about.

1:14:08But I just, I wonder about your thought process about, you know, having learned from doing this. If it's, you know, wanting to do similar things, wanting to do different things, wanting to develop things differently. Like, where do you go on from this in terms of backing stuff that you want to make and want to watch? um i guess like yeah it just is about um you know i certainly meet sort of creative partners along the way um and i think that i just fall in love with them and i want to do more with them i mean i know that steve conrad is one of those guys and um you know we have stuff that we're talking about that uh really excites me um and then i just honestly like it's it's about that surprise like and it's about that originality more than anything else there's not a thematic like you know i have something it's been announced that i have this thing with millie and jack thorne at netflix uh that's a spy thing but it um it's really exciting but the reason why it's really exciting is because it again it's very genre bending like it's the it's the dtf of the spy world like it's like it's like what is you know i got i got tired of um in terms of these genres like i grew up with them i've i watched so many films and so much tv it's like i'm tired of the guy like screwing the silencer into the you know into the sniper rifle and like out the window it was like what can we do with this genre that'll feel that'll give us the satisfaction of the genre i think like like dtf does with suburban noir but that also will elevate it and lift it for a modern audience to something weird and new yeah and uh so that's really what i'm the focus is it's more of a an idea-based thing but it crosses i'm going into all sort of departments there's that thing there's totally different there's like half hour ideas is totally different things all across the board.

1:16:07But the constant thematic would be like originality. Yeah. Well, movies do this too, but I just feel like what TV is doing so interestingly now is that genre thing you're talking about of like, here's this thing that you know, here's the framework in which we can get you to say, oh, I'll check out this spy show. And then you're in, and then they can get you to go in all kinds of different directions. And so many shows in different kinds of ways are doing that. And it's, you know, TV goes through periods of being more and less interesting. But I just think it's such an interesting place with that right now.

1:16:32So you're saying I'm unoriginal in my desire. No, I'm saying that you are in the medium that makes it possible to do this. I mean, it's also like the best way to do it. You know, the oldest idea in Hollywood is I'm going to come and tell a fun story in a way that people haven't seen before. Right. You're the tradition of the Wizard of Oz up to. Yes, I was just watching the Wizard of Oz on the plane back here. And I was like, can you imagine when that came out? people must have just been like, what is this? And they embraced it. They were just, they just loved it. And I was like, that's, that's to me, the, the penalty.

1:17:10I mean, that to me is the ultimate of what you can create. Were you watching it as like related, not to spoil what you're working on or just like, Oh, I'm on a plane. I want to watch the Wizard of Oz. Uh, there was, um, I wasn't watching it related. I just, I love David Lynch's love of it. And so I was like, sort of watching it with that lens too. But also it was like, it was funny because I was thinking a little bit about Millie and the thing that we're working on. And she reminded me a little bit of Judy Garland, just in certain shots, like just the structure of her face and stuff. And I was like, there's big eyes.

1:17:42There's something there that you can express for both of them. Well, that's very, okay. So it was a Millie Bobby Brown as Judy Garland in a spy show that Ben John. Now we're building the yellow brick road right now. We're literally in construction of the Bellabook Brook. If you're bringing back old school MGM set design, like, great. I feel like we need much more of that. Whoa, those big pyrotechnics, the fire in front of the Oz guy. The hundreds of people in the background, but all inside a soundstage. That's what we need. You're giving me ideas now. This is good. I'll take it. That does it for today's episode.

1:18:21More bonus episodes to come as we wrap up our series of conversations with Emmy nominees. In the meantime, this podcast is edited by Brett Fox and produced by Brett Fox and me. Our theme music is by Dave Gonzalez. Thanks again to our co-host today, Kyle Buchanan. Subscribe to the Prestige Junkie newsletter at TheAngler.com. Subscribe to this podcast on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify. You can watch it in full on YouTube if you're not already. And we will see you later this week.

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