Fall Movie Preview Part 4 with Tyler Coates, Plus Noah Wyle On His Triple-Duty on The Pitt

0:00I would love to have been at that meta screening Reverend Love, House of Dynamite. I wonder what that was like. Yeah, I mean, talk about a mass hysteria, Matt. I don't know what happened there. Sorry, sorry, but that was insane. It's okay. We decided that, you know, the Statue of Limitations is up on Oscar takes. This is a safe space to talk about the movies from previous seasons. Hi, everyone. I'm Katie Rich. This is the Prestige Junkie Podcast. And today we are continuing our fall preview series, talking about the indie studios that have won Best Picture in the last decade and are hoping to do it again.

0:32Joining me once again, Chris Rosen, back to talk about Neon and A24. What a long list of films we have to talk about today, Chris. It's going to be fun. Always so many. Always so many. And joining us to go through it all, returning guest to the podcast, beloved friend of the show, filmmaker, magazine, columnist Tyler Coates. Hello, Tyler. Hello. Thank you for having me. We will talk about what Neon and A24 have in store, including, as usual, a whole bunch of canned titles and some stuff we know absolutely nothing about, which is very fun to get into. After all of that, you'll hear my conversation, my last interview of Emmy season.

1:07And this is a good one. It's with Noah Wiley talking about The Pit. All of that and more coming up. Welcome to the show.

1:16Okay, Tyler, you've been doing this a long time, along with me and Chris. and to me it makes sense to lump Neon and A24 together in this conversation. They are kind of the great champions at doing the award season thing really in a different way. They've kind of forged their own path through it and they both I think I thought they were both had quieter years this year but oh my god they have so many movies. Why do these tiny companies have so many movies? Well no it's interesting that you you kind of talk about them as like they're kind of still upstarts in the grand scheme of things when you look at these other big studios that have been around for decades.

1:52And Neon especially came out right out of the gate. Their first year was the I, Tonya year. So I don't think like for a new studio to come out with a Best Picture nominee is pretty impressive. That was nominated for Best Picture, right? Alice and Janie won an Oscar for it. Yes, there you go. It did better than Spring Breakers did as A24's first movie. Correct. But yeah, the A24 is always kind of aimed for that cool, like transgressive young thing. Neon also has that cool cachet, but I feel like it's a little bit more grown up and mature in a way. They have the can thing going for them for sure.

2:36They sure do. They have so many of them to deal with this year. I mean, it is interesting that A24 has its own horror hit this year with Backrooms and Neon, which kind of really pioneered it. Doesn't. It didn't. I think, am I the only person who in my mind is like, oh, Obsession was a Neon movie, right? Just because it feels like it should have been. It doesn't feel like a Focus features movie. No, but God love them. They have it going for them. But Chris, I mean, just looking at these slates or just where they are right now, are Neon and A24 basically neck and neck? Are they having a good year so far?

3:08I think it depends. And so, like, I guess we'll see how the rest of the year goes. I do think they're neck and neck in terms of, like, the discourse and the culture. And Neon has found its lane, like we're saying, with, like, all those canned titles. And they really have, like, that internet. It feels like, I mean, obviously after last year, like, kind of locking down the international feature category that they have this, like, they figured out their lane. And then A24, one of the things I've been really interested in with them is that, you know, they have clearly gone more mainstream. You've seen that, like, with some of their movies, not just Backrooms, like Civil War or even Marty Supreme.

3:38but they've actually managed to stay kind of like awards irrelevant. And I'll be curious to see how they kind of blend that as they kind of like, is, is a 24 basically Miramax? Like when it was like Shakespeare in love, Miramax, or it was like they could release movies that make money and also get awards. It seems like that's, they're hoping for. I mean, maybe obviously without all the, the horrible baggage with Miramax, but at the same time, like I do think that's kind of like their lane a little bit. And I think Neon is still like its own thing. So it is great to put them together. But I like I do think now they've kind of locked into those two little lanes that they are both occupying.

4:16Yeah. When you look at the A24 slate, even just the movies that have already come out this year, like the drama, Backrooms, The Invite, Tony, which by the time people hear this will have opened in theaters. Like those would have all been Miramax, New Line, like 90s studio kind of backed indie releases. Like it's it's pretty mainstream compared to Spring Breakers or even more recent A24 stuff. And it's really working for them, too. Yeah. And I mean, they do. They have had that head start, I think, of figuring out how to do the cool stuff. And then, you know, Neon certainly wants a big blockbuster.

4:47I can't imagine they're going to turn up their nose against it. Yeah. They just haven't really hit that level yet. And they've yeah, they're dominating the prestige market, I think, right now. I mean, Neon has, you know, they managed to make over$200 million worldwide with Parasite. So clearly their strategy of making money this way happens. They also have their long legs thing going for them. But you're right that box office wise, like, I mean, let's start with A24 and talking about these two studios, because A24 has three really sizable early year hits in the drama, Backrooms and the Invite.

5:19I think the invite is kind of easily the most likely of the the Oscar contenders here. Shout out to Mother Mary, a movie I like a lot. I don't think it's part of this conversation. But before we just jump right into the invite, like, do you see anyone talking about the drama or backrooms as the year goes on? No, not really. I mean, I think the drama, I rewatched it a couple weeks ago. And I, you know, once you get away from the whole twist or premise or whatever that we couldn't talk about. It's such a funny movie. It is so, so funny. I think it's a great, like, original screenplay contender, whether or not it goes beyond that.

5:56Alana Haim is the villain of the year and best supporting actress I would love. Some critics groups got to be brave enough to do that. Exactly. Come on, guys. Yes. I mean, Indie Spirits, they're right there. Gotham Awards. Come on. So, yeah. Yeah, I mean, but, you know, then you also have, I mean, the leads, Zendaya and Robert Pattinson also have like 800 other movies coming out this year. Are they busy? It's hard. I'm not aware. Much bigger, yeah. So I don't know. I mean, I guess from Zendaya's perspective, that's like the most likely best actress contender for her. But still, like, I don't. It's a weird best actress year so far.

6:32So like maybe. Yeah. Maybe there's some smart campaigning that could happen here. I mean, like we talked about this, Katie, a lot. Like it's a wide, you want to say wide open best actress race, right? Or weak or what was the other, like how Buchanan on last week's episode described it? The room to grow, whatever you want to say. Permeable. Permeable. That was the word. It's a permeable best actress race, Tyler. And so with that, I mean, like, you know, Zendaya obviously now going to be the star of the two biggest movies of the year, right? Like Odyssey and Spider-Man. Maybe the three. Maybe the third, yeah.

7:02And it depends. Maybe Dune she could, I mean, who knows? like is what if she's the lead of dune and it becomes like an oscar thing and maybe she gets you know like they could run her in lead actress or that but like the drama yeah like especially it was a big hit i could see people coming back to it it certainly could get like regional critics groups or stuff like that and if the best actors field remains permeable uh i think there's room for her to like kind of slot in there as for this movie but like it'll be interesting to see if they're able to bring it back because it was a nice hit but like they didn't really it didn't really go anywhere beyond that you know what i mean like i'm thinking of like materialist where it was like hey this is a good hit and then it kind of just stopped so sure curious to see well i also feel like i was just so burned by challengers where it was like just get her in the best actress why not do this sure right happen and that movie was terrific so really a similar i mean zendaya and april i guess that's the power that she has here yeah but it's also like i mean there's an argument for like those movies are fine just making money i mean it's great that those movies like that those are adult dramas comedies that like you know that's like literally what we want more of and at the movies so i feel like it's okay if they don't also get you know we don't shoehorn them into this like oscar process too yeah i mean that's what i thought we were going to be saying for the invite which did really well it had a great june release date olivia wild really kind of killing it this year but if people really keep talking about it here we are into August.

8:29And as we talked about, Chris, I think there aren't very many female directors in this race at all. And Olivia Wilde is really the face of that movie. And, you know, she's two for three on her movies she's directed, as far as I'm concerned. Like, I'm very interested to see where they take the invite. No, I think the invite, I think the invite is their biggest contender this year, at least right now, because it has, I mean, you can easily see it getting a Best Picture nomination, if not Best Director, then all four, I mean, all four performances, I think, are Oscar nomination worthy. I'm very curious how it will play as a screenplay because obviously Rashida Jones and Will McCormick are credited with the adapted screenplay.

9:13It's been adapted now five times from the same Spanish movie in five years. Wait, in five years? Really? Yes. This movie, the original movie came out in like 2020. That's crazy. I did not realize that. Yeah. It's been insane. But so much of the press tour was about how much improvisation there was, Ed Norton writing his own monologue. So I'm curious. And like Rashida, I mean, I think I saw Rashida at like one event, at least pictures of her. So I'm curious if like all of that press kind of works against it as a screenplay or if the screenwriting branch will just be like, that's okay. That's part of making a movie.

9:54yeah where are you on the invite right now Chris so it's a crowded adapted field right now I think that's true similarly with the drama where it's like hey people really liked it and we'll see how the rest of the year goes but I mean we talked about this on a larger scale with the Odyssey and Project Hail Mary where they're like you know they're good because we've seen them and now these movies that come later have to be better than them so now for the smaller movies we already know the invite's really good we already know we loved Edward Norton in it We already know Penelope Cruz is great in it.

10:26And Olivia Wilde is really great. And, you know, certainly a director too and all these things. So if certain things fall out in the fall, they could definitely bring it back. I do think like they'll absolutely bring it back for Olivia Wilde, probably for best actress and maybe best director. I don't think that's far-fetched at all. I think the screenplay we'll see. The other thing is do people think Olivia Wilde wrote the movie? Like, which, you know, that is a play into like where, oh, we think, you know, if you're not really paying attention or whatever, you're like, oh, well, we'll just get it as a screenplay animation.

10:53because we like Olivia Wilde. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing about, that's the thing that I'm fascinated by the screenplay categories general is that they way more often than not go to directors. Yeah, absolutely. Sort of, it's become like Best Director Junior to me in a way. So especially like, you know, a young new director has a screenplay. He kind of like, I mean, thinking of like Cord and even Sarah Hawley. Yeah. So if I had to guess, I would say like Best Picture, supporting actor, like on the fringe of best director and maybe she gets in if it's like some of these movies aren't very good or they kind of don't work out or whatever but like i think those like at least two nominations maybe three i think it's gonna be really strong for them and like that's that's great because it's good so supporting actors gonna be a barn burner this year like we got dune coming around the horizon and all the odyssey guys and edward norton killing it it's gonna be fun um have either of you guys seen tony before we get into the fall movies yes i have seen i liked I don't know how, I mean, it's an August release, so it seems like they're positioning it not to be something we need to talk about here, but I'm looking forward to seeing it.

11:57I mean, I think Antonio Banderas, especially, is a contender for that. Yeah, I mean, he just, everything about his performance just seems so effortless. And I think, you know, I think he elevates Dominic Sessa. I mean, Dominic Sessa's had the great fortune of, like, working with two of our great living actors at this point in, like, his two movies. and you're leaving on Now You See Me 3 which is also features one of our great living actors in Jesse Eisenberg sorry I missed that one you gotta see it not in on the Now You See Me franchise you can't be a cess ahead unless you've seen Now You See Me 3 but yeah I think I mean I think Tony is it feels like a very like you know it's produced by the guys who did King Richard Matt Johnson who did Blackberry and it's one half of Nirvana the Band the show the movie it's such a it is a really delightful you know period comedy that you know feels like it could be about any young jerk named tony it just happens to also be about anthony bernan um but i i think it's like a solid i'd be curious how far it would go beyond maybe banderas but yeah i'm just i'm just glad that it's good and i like it when good movies come out in august it feels exactly for maintaining the balance um so okay so looking to the fall I mean, Chris, you were saying you feel like the invite is easily a 24 stock contender, but they have what looks on paper.

13:19And, you know, one of these movies we've seen in Club Kid at Cannes and then that and primetime and the debut all seem like they're taking up a lot of oxygen. Like you could, you know, reasonably reserve best picture slots for all three if you really wanted to be ambitious about it. So it's it's crowded in there for the invite to stay a priority in the way that we're talking about. I guess that's true. I guess I would say, like, in terms of what's already out is their prior. I think of these ones you mentioned, the debut is certainly like the one that I feel like could be, if not a winner for them, like top level, like top five best picture contender based on paper alone.

13:52Because you have Jesse Eisenberg coming off a real pain where he didn't even get the best picture nomination for that, which was a surprise. So it's like there's room to grow there. And that was like a significant snub at the time where you're like, oh, well, how do we not nominate him? You have Paul Giamatti. We talked about this on the Who's Next Oscar draft, Katie, where I picked him and I was like bullish on him winning Best Supporting Actor for this. He's overdue. Very overdue and like great. And Julia Moore maybe winning Best Actress in a permeable field. So I'm like, if it's going to win two acting awards and like maybe Jesse Eisenberg gets in for screenplay again, like all these things, like it does feel like a top level Best Picture contender.

14:30Again, if it's good, if it's not good, we'll be wiping egg. I'll be wiping egg off my face at the very least. but I'm assuming it'll be good. It is sort of interesting looking at 824's lineup. A lot of them are kind of like comedy dramedies, which I kind of love. I haven't seen Club Kid yet, but Misty Green sort of has that vibe from the trailer. Primetime is the... The Chris Hansen one. Yeah, so that one's probably not as funny. But yeah, I don't know, some dark humor there. But no, I like the idea that like, I mean, because I think that that's the beauty of the 10. best picture lineup is that you get like you'll have the odyssey you'll have like project hill mary the big you know muscular blockbusters and then but that also gives you space for like the international contenders the the prestige costume dramas and then throw in you know an adult comedy of which we're getting so many good options this year it gives me as a comedy person and it makes me happy.

15:30I want to see more. And I think, and Olivia Wilde has said that. I mean, that was a major part of her press tour was that comedies deserve to be seen on the big screen. That's why she shot it on film. She wanted it to be something that people consider watching in a theater with other people, not just something that's dumped on a streamer, which is where we see a lot of these like kind of mid-budget adult comedies go these days. So it gives me hope that we're like keeping smart grownup stuff in the theaters that's, you know, beyond the Odyssey in Project Hail Mary. What are we making of Misty Green at this point after that trailer that came out?

16:04Right around the time it was added to the TIFF lineup as a world premiere. Directed by Chris Rock, Top 5 went there and it was like a really huge deal when it was at TIFF that year. That trailer seemed odd to me and I don't entirely know why. It's like either there's like a plot part that it's hiding or, you know, it's got Resident Eliezer who's kind of like a new Breaking Out star. It feels unfair to compare it to Ella McKay but when you have an actress who you're not that familiar with playing the titular role and you're like okay that's we did it once last year it didn't go so well but i and she plays an actress is that what yeah it seems like she's auditioning for dream girls uh based on the trailer i need to rewatch this trailer i mean that's certainly more believable than like a 24 year old mayor governor governor of a state no no the state you grew up in the state she was the state who was born and raised in.

16:55Right, of course. But yeah, I don't know what to make of Misty Green. It's, you know, Primetime has such an obvious hook. The debut does. And, you know, Club Kid has the can raise. Misty Green is hard to figure out where it fits into this list. But I like, you know, I like Chris Rock's directorial sensibility. It's very, like, I don't know, contemporary. I mean, he loves Eric Romer. I mean, one of them is like a remake of Love in the Afternoon, I think, right? So, like, I love this idea of, like, take, Like, I mean, because that's something I don't think of when I think of Chris Rock as someone who's like sitting at home watching The Green Ray or something.

17:30So I love that. I love that concept. So I kind of I'm kind of into it just on paper that way. But, you know, again, like as much as I've liked his previous movies, they were kind of ignored in this way. And he has a weird relationship with the Oscars now, having been assaulted on stage. So I don't know. it's very weird to think of him going back a very specific oscar comeback story i'm not sure anyone else can quite hold a candle to to chris rock's oscar history um right where are you on missy green i i was very excited for it until i saw the trailer which is a bit of a nag but because i do love top five and i think chris rock is really smart and i like all of the people in this movie are great like adam driver daniel kaluuya all these like supporting actors who i'm like great to have daniel kaluuya back it's been way too long but the trailer definitely was like i agree it felt like a little off.

18:19I'm not sure. Like, it seems like it's much more serious, maybe. Not that that's a problem, but it did feel like I'm tipping into almost like melodrama at times in the trailer. I think, like, looking at this A24 slate, if we're like, oh, the debut is like across the board contender. Primetime, who knows? Like, we could talk about that in a second, obviously, but it does seem like this is Robert Pattinson kind of, maybe not that that's not the only thing, but that would be like the priority of that movie to best actor Robert Pattinson. And then you could say Misty Green would be like, we were saying like Rosalind Eliezer as in this permeable best actress race, maybe she's like a breakthrough and you're like, oh, here's like a Star is War performance and going from there.

18:55So I'll be curious to see how it does. I mean, like the Tiff was, I was at that, were you at that screening to top five? The top five, I don't even remember, probably. It was great. It blew the roof off. Like it was so, it was like really like one of the bigger movies that year. And it was like, oh, this is really cool. And so I understand why they're going back there when Chris is going back there with the movie and we'll see how it is. It doesn't, it does seem like, did you get this vibe from the trailer especially with like the Daniel Kaluuya stuff it felt very old fashioned in terms of like it's like oh he's like the brother who's got problems also part of Ella McKay it felt like really old fashioned and I was just like this is so unlike I guess that was what threw me off it felt very unlike an A24 movie because even like these like we're saying like they're bringing back like studio comedies or like adult dramas they still have like an edge like the drama it's like she was planning a school shooting right the statute of limitations is over for that spoiler it's the premise of the movie That's a premise of the movie.

19:45And the invite has obviously got its own little twisty premise. So I'm just like, this felt very straightforward to me, just looking at the trailer. And that was maybe what threw me off. Well, if A24 is a new line of the 90s, then maybe that makes perfect sense. Let's talk about Primetime, because none of us have seen a premiere at Venice. And with Venice, the Venice slate being kind of thin, Primetime really has a moment to shine there, I think. And there's just, everyone's kind of asking the question, like, after this great year, how are Robert Pattinson, Zendaya, and Hathaway, like, all of them going to find their lane.

20:17And if primetime is great, it's kind of a very easy decision to make. If it's not, I don't know how we handle Pattinson. So it feels like there's a lot riding on this one in that way. I feel like that's how Venice is every year. There's a lot riding on what comes out of Venice. Like, last year's Venice was Frankenstein and Jay Kelly, right? Like, was there anything else? House of Dynamite. Right. Well, no other choice hit big at Venice. Right. Went nowhere with the Oscars. Very unfairly, I think. But that was it once again, like Neon was trying to pull off all five nominations. You know, Hind Rajab was always there waiting in the wings.

20:53Yeah. Yeah, then House of Dynamite. Talk about, I mean, talk about film festivals being... I would love to have been at that meta screening where everyone loved House of Dynamite. I wonder what that was like. Yeah, I mean, talk about a mass hysteria event. I don't know what happened there. Sorry, sorry, but that was insane. It's okay, we decided that, you know, the statute of limitations is up on Oscar takes. This is a safe space to talk about the movies from previous seasons. You can say you didn't like. I won't get a call. You mean I can't, I can't, but no, I mean that that's, I, and that's always, that's always, it feels like that's been the case for the last couple of years.

21:28There hasn't been a huge breakout of, from Venice that I can recall. I mean, Frankenstein went, yeah, Frankenstein, which went much farther than I think people expected at Venice. last year. People were horrible to it in Menace and Telluride. But I think that, yes, but I think that that proves that sometimes the audience is there for a certain filmmaker, and the audience will get what that person is trying to do. Frankenstein should have premiered at TIFF. I'll die on that hill. Yes, I mean, that's the other thing. I think TIFF is a very, of the three, is the much more populist thing. The People's Choice winners are sort of like, okay, yeah, I can see that.

22:09That makes total sense every single year. Maybe with the exception of Life of Chuck, which sometimes things happen. That was a moment. Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like whatever comes out of TIFF doing really successfully is going to be the popular choice at the Oscars that may not ultimately win, but it will have a lot of goodwill and good spirit around it. um but Chris we talked a lot about this best actor race and how crowded it is with all these like huge legacy stars and Pattinson's kind of a weirdly middle ground he's not a breakout but he's not Matt Damon or Tom Cruise so maybe is that an advantage maybe I kind of think it is and I was also like the fact that we really don't know a lot about this movie right they released that like very like teasery teaser where you're really not seeing very much and I was like that could play to its advantage too because we won't feel like a like it's a little silly to say but I'm like, at this, like, we've already, like, with Digger and stuff, it's been, we've been so overloaded of being, like, this is the Tom Cruise moment or whatever it is.

23:13And, like, this one, we're like, oh, maybe we don't really know what it is in this Pattinson. What is he going to be doing here? So I think it could be an interesting play, especially if it's good. It does feel like the kind of movie that on paper would play really well at Venice because maybe it's a little more offbeat than you're expecting, like, a straightforward telling of that tale. But then would it play well at other festivals or how would it go? I'll be curious to see if it's at... I don't think it's... I haven't seen it rumored for Telluride. I don't know if it would... I don't think it's at TIFF based on what I just found.

23:42So maybe the next place would be New York Film Festival, if it does that. Or maybe not, because it's coming out in September. So who knows? Oh, yeah, there you go. It won't be at New York Film Festival. It's just at Venice, and then that's it. And so, I don't know. It'll be interesting to see. The release date's a little strange, but that was when One Battle came out last year. So who knows? I'm not saying from a box office perspective, just from a visibility perspective, I guess. Like, we'll see how it is. But I'm excited to see it. I think everyone is rooting for Robert Pattinson in an interesting way.

24:10Like, everyone is—I feel like every movie that comes out, everyone's like, this is the one. This is—we'll get Robert Pattinson, like, the recognition he deserves. Because he's been, you know, he's—like Kristen Stewart, had to overcome this, like, you know, badge of dishonor being in Twilight. Like, being, like, too populous too early. and what he has done like her, I think since then is being like, I'm going to make movies with the people I think are interesting because I have the power, I have the power to help them get these movies made. And so I think that that brings a lot of goodwill with him.

24:44I mean, I think, you know, scene stealing in the Odyssey. I mean, just the Odyssey, like acting question is just, I think everyone has so many, it's just such a, it's so, such a free for all. It's so funny how in all of these preview episodes we've done, Chris, eventually we all just talk about the Odyssey. I mean, it is the thing. It's the movie, yeah. It's the movie that everyone knows is going to be the leader. We've now done three of these already. And I'm like, oh, now I've gone from no way Anne Hathaway is going to be lead to like Anne Hathaway is definitely running lead. I mean, that's fine.

25:15You've convinced me everybody else has. Yeah, it only makes sense. We were talking about this with Kyle and last week, Katie, and then Netflix of it and like Leia Seydoux as their like best actress play like with Gentle Monster. And you look at the A24 slate for Pattinson here and obviously the drama we were just talking about. But I think even though he's really great and it's not like a thing that was taken seriously as his performance. He's got so much else to choose from. They don't really have another best actor in their list here. No disrespect to like Jordan Firstman for Club Kid. I don't believe that that will gain as much attraction.

25:44I don't think that's an actor play. And then like Seth Rogen would I guess be the lead for the invite. Well, you're assuming Giamatti is supporting in the debut, which we don't really know. supporting and debut and then you have Pattinson lane cleared for them to just focus all their attention on him getting a best actor nomination for primetime and I've seen we've seen worse ideas I guess I would say so like yeah I do think it's possible as much as I think Timothy Chalamet is a great movie star Pattinson is so much better at the press game than Chalamet is I'm just imagining A24's trauma of doing another best actor campaign and I think Pattinson's got the tools and think about all the people that they could bring out with him right and like we're saying with all these other movies the odyssey and dune it's like the amount of people they could do like events with and say like yeah we're gonna interview pat like last year at chalamet doing like matthew mcconaughey which didn't really work or the dwayne lebron james right yeah those were cool but like not for oscar voters like pattinson could be like chris nolan yeah right okay yeah right exactly yeah claire denis will fly out kristin stewart right like they could do that I'm like, there's so much to do with him.

26:49I am so ready for their reunion. There has to be, I mean, I don't know what their lives are, but they have to be past any bad blood from that insane breakup that they had. Like, come on, guys, get back together. We need, we need not in like a, not a parent trap, just like in a, come on and have a reunion. Even Zendaya, right? Like all of these people, I didn't help Pat and Sidney, like Tyler, you were saying, like there is such an affection for him, I do think. So like, we'll see if this. Yeah, but it has to be a good movie. Yeah, it has to be good. If it's not good, it doesn't matter. but let's expect it to be good.

27:17What's interesting about you saying he feels overdue, Chris, is like he's never really had the movie that felt like it was going to be the one. Like he's made, you know, I thought it was tremendous in Mickey 17. I understand why that movie didn't work. You know, he's great in Tenet. That didn't, like there's been interesting stuff he's made but like The Lighthouse is maybe the closest he's gotten. So it is, there's not an overdue, he's overdue in that he's a major star but it's not like they've done him wrong in the past. We don't really know, I guess, if the Academy loves him or not. Yeah, that's true.

27:44Right. Yeah. I think it's interesting. In my mind, I always assumed Paul Giamatti was lead of the debut. Because I see it as like the two, it's like a two antagonist. Yeah. And I can see the argument. I mean, especially because the most supporting categories are so insane. Yeah. It would make more sense for him to run lead. And I think that people would rather see him get best actor than supporting actor. There is something about that. But he's like the ultimate supporting actor, you know? I don't know. I think of him as a lead to me, Holdover versus Sideways. I mean, still upset about Sideways.

28:23Yeah, I know. It's true. He's John Adams himself. So let's talk about Club Kid before we wrap up A24. I'm the only one of us who's seen it, I think. I haven't seen it, yeah. I do think that that movie just plays. Like, is it crowd pleaser in so many different ways? Let's see. I do believe it is going to TIFF, which makes perfect sense. I think I saw that, yes. I think it should play. Oh, it's in a Canadian premiere. So then maybe Telluride too. So enjoy seeing it in Telluride, Chris. Yes, I can't wait. I think the movie is so wonderful as this object of its own. And then Jordan Firstman is an incredibly complicated...

28:54He is the opposite of Pattinson, I guess, in terms of doing press and just finding ways to make people mad. So I just can't wait to see how that goes. I think you were right, Tyler, that it's not really an acting play for him. I mean, Diego Calva is good in it. It's a pretty small part. So it's kind of a picture screenplay. you can make a director campaign. And I'm curious about how a movie with that kind of like tight scope can go when you've got like something like the debut or, you know, these other movies that are more of across the board players. Right. And are, I mean, I find it so difficult to imagine him getting a best director nomination.

29:30It's not a best director kind of movie either. It's very well made, but it's not flashy in any real way. And he's not known. I mean, I'm trying to think of like like, the actors who have accomplished that, and it's, like, Bradley Cooper, obviously, who, you know, he's just collecting nominations at this point. They refuse to give him an award. Poor man. He was on my Who's Next Oscar draft, I believe, in the next 10 years. And, like, Redford won, like, for his first movie, but still he had been around for so long. He was still the number, you know, it was Robert Redford. So, I don't, I mean, I don't even think, you know, I could see Olivia getting a nomination.

30:07I don't think that she would win. I can't imagine any or even Jesse Eisenberg. I can't imagine any actor directors right now who could pull that off. Not that I don't think that they are deserving of it, but I just don't know who could do it. Maybe like a Ben Affleck. I mean, if he directed another movie, I don't know. Yeah. Our current best director is the best director race is kind of the snobbiest. The one that is the most like, you know, auteur and auteur inclined and internationally minded. and that makes it tough for the, yeah, I'm like, I'm looking through of who the actor directors in the race even are.

30:43So yeah, I think that's a good point. My hot takes on Club Kid, which I haven't seen and I can't wait to see it until you're right, assuming it's there, is A, I feel like, it feels like the most neon-coated movie ever. I don't know how A24 ended up with this, frankly, but good for them. Neon had too many movies. I know. We'll get there in a minute. Neon-coated. And then B, I guess like, you would hope the best case scenario for it probably for them is like past lives maybe where it's like a picture and like a screenplay. And then the worst case, which is worst in quotes because it did really well and was talked about the whole season is something like Sorry Baby, which was Ava Victor's movie last year.

31:18And then they didn't get them in for screenplay, but it was like at least talked about as like a contender. So I mean, Julia Roberts. If Julia Roberts comes out on stage and is like, Jordan Firstman's my hero. You never know. Award season can take us in strange directions. Let's talk about Neon then, because as we said, they have an incredibly busy lineup. I don't think anything they've released so far this year is really part of this conversation. As much as I love the Christophers and I love Boosters, it's just it's a fun movie to be able to talk about. Great costume design contender. Oh, my God.

31:52That would be fair. And production design. I mean, the crafts there are insane. But really starting in September, actually, No Sheep in the Box, the Coriata movie is already out. but they're going to have a ton of Cannes titles coming very early in September with Hope and then just to run it down, Fjord, the Palme d 'Or winner, Paper Tiger, the James Gray movie, all of a sudden the Hamaguchi movie Clarissa was a Cannes and The Unknown all coming out from Neon Is this too many Cannes titles for one studio? I mean this is like the second year in a row they've done so many Cannes titles, I mean I remember when they won last year with, God, what was the Cannes winner last year?

32:30Cinnamon of Value. sentimental value. No, it wasn't. It was just an accident. Yes. Yes. But I remember someone from a rival studio being like, well, yeah, of course you're going to win if you keep buying all the movies. And when they bought Paper Tiger in the middle of Cannes, I was like, okay, guys, you're probably okay, but thank you for buying a James Gray movie. Paper Tiger is my number one right now. I love it. I think it is incredible. I mean, I'm a huge James Gray fan. I think it is. I think he's a great American artist that is completely overlooked and i you know this movie as someone who can sometimes bump against miles teller as a persona he's really good in this movie adam driver is really good in this movie scarlett johansson you know she's given a full bodied she's given accent i mean she's doing a lot um it's a really it's kind of i i've compared it to i mean i i say it's like armageddon time if the kids get into some real problems.

33:31If they meet some of James Gray's old characters from the 90s. The Russian mob from We Are the Night. That's where it is. After Paper Tiger rudely won Zero Can Awards, it did kind of feel like James Gray is just the constant Charlie Brown of the football situation where it's like what is it going to take? I liked Paper Tiger a lot. I need to see it again. I love James Gray also. It wasn't my immediate number one James Gray movie the way it has been for a number of people. It's opening the New York Film Festival, I think. Yes, which is perfect. So that will be a great audience for that. I feel like the next round of that movie has a lot of places to go.

34:07But I am curious, if the Academy is finally going to pay any attention to James Gray, can this be the movie that gets him there? Ito, it's interesting because I do think it is, it feels to me like a culmination of a lot of his ideas, and visually and storytelling-wise. And, you know, we're now we're seeing this trend. I mean, last year, Paul Thomas Anderson finally getting the recognition that he's deserved for all of these many years for a great movie. I don't know if it's my favorite Paul Thomas Anderson film, but One Battle was incredible. But the Academy knew he existed in a way that they don't know that James Gray exists.

34:45Exactly. The year before, you have Sean Baker for his seventh film, I think. nothing had been I guess a couple of his movies had been nominated in various things but Florida Project Florida Project really yeah yeah yes and I think maybe a screenplay nomination he had received before I'm not sure but it's possible I feel like you know we're yeah I think it's like we're trending towards the I mean we always kind of go back and forth between like a newcomer versus veteran especially in the acting races lately but I feel like with directors and writers we're starting to see like okay this person's been doing this for years top of their game this is like you know this this thing represents so much of what they've done in the past i could see that being the narrative there and i think that they have i think that it's i think neon if anyone can get james gray in i think neon can do it uh you know he he's gonna have a lot of support from i think at least three different agencies this year because he's with, personally, he's with strategy and then the movie will be with, like, maybe split between two other agencies in LA.

35:56So I think that, like, there's a lot of people. A lot of manpower. A lot of stakeholders in the James Gray camp, I think, right now who want to see this happen. Yeah. Which I'm excited about because I want to see it happen, too. Well, so of these young movies at work, I saw Paper Tiger and Clarissa there, which Clarissa I really like and I'm very interested to see where it can go. Oh, Sofia Canedo really in it. But Fjord, I think, is the big overdog of this lineup because it's the Palm winner. And I haven't seen it. I missed it. I've told the story of the podcast before, but I had to choose between Fjord and Club Kit at Cannes.

36:27And it felt very rude that I had to do that. But, I mean, Chris, where do you think Fjord is in the history of Neon Palm winners? It doesn't feel, I mean, it was just an accident, ultimately didn't go as far in the Oscar race as we wanted it to. Where does it feel on that, you know, the spectrum of that to Parasite? it feels like kind of like if sentimental value won the palm which i know is very reductive to me but i'm just like that's what it kind of feels like right now because i just feel like it feels really strong i think it does feel strong i think you'd have to put it in for best picture just based on that i'll be curious to see if like uh who gets in i think renata rindsville again in terms of like the permeable best actress race feels like a lock sebastian stan maybe less so because like it's a very crowded best actor field but he has so much goodwill from the apprentice and it seems like a transformational performance in terms of like he's bald and it's like you know he's speaking romanian like all these things so but i do think it'll be really good i i'll be curious to see how i mean again we i think we talked about this and i haven't seen it obviously either so i'm just going on what the the reports are in the reviews but it does seem like it's a movie that at least confronts the idea that conservative politics and progressive politics on either end of the sphere on the spectrum are maybe not the best way to go through life and i'll be curious to see how a movie that is like could be weaponized in terms of like is the jeff wells of the world gonna be like this is a great anti-cancel culture movie versus like you know people being like this is a great you know what it'll be interesting to see how it's weaponized i think neon will do a really good job with it and there are probably people in hollywood that would love it to be weaponized like we've seen like you know what i mean like certainly older people are conservative more conservative minded former progressives who are like the progressive mood.

38:09It's too crazy for me. So I'll be curious to see how it goes. I do think it'll be very interesting. And like, I haven't, I definitely would say pencil it in for at least best picture I can see and best director too, probably. Yeah, I've seen it. I saw it here in LA. I was not a huge fan. But, and so I was sort of perplexed by the win, but I think so much of it takes place in court proceedings. And we know that international court does well for people. I mean, we love the French lawyers and anatomy of a fall have stuck with me. I mean, even like the Amanda Knox TV show, it's like Italian court.

38:44It was like the Italian courts were like, hold my beer. They think our court is crazy. I know. So this is, you know, it has that like, you know, that international court thing a lot. You know, the third act is very is very much focused on that. I yeah, I mean, I I can sort of. You've seen it, so tell me, am I, like, take wrong? No, no, I think that that is the underlying point, is that, you know, the progressive nature of, you know, I mean, the whole thing is like, you know, these people are going to be deported because they may have slapped their kid once. No. Is the sense of it. I don't think it's a, it feels like a supporting performance for Renata.

39:28Interesting. But there's also a very solid supporting female performance. I mean, Renata is good in it, but compared to her last few films, it's a much more smaller and subdued role. I mean, Sebastian's really more of the star. But, yeah, I'm very curious how far it will go for all those reasons. I think that it's kind of a stretch to say that this is an anti-cancel culture movie, but that's not going to stop anyone. but also the idea that like you're gonna have like the the american conservatives in this field be like the norwegian movie is the one that we're really putting all fjord we're really putting all of our starring the guy who played donald trump like this is really where we're gonna put all of our like political energy and i think they're gonna stick with the odyssey unfortunately because it's much easier and lower hanging fruit uh to be mad about that um i do feel like the fjord like kind of the not a shrug but a little bit of question around fjord is the vibe i was getting at can some of it's like this is not as much of a sentiment value like oh my god this movie is gonna play and that's one of my questions about it sentimental value i mean fjord is bleak sentimental value had uh i think what joe kim trigger is so good at is just like making something so deeply emotionally affecting and this is i don't think this really has it i don't think that that's the point of Fjord at all.

40:48It is more of a morality play. And, but I think that that, you know, it very much speaks to a lot of things that are happening in our time that I think that there'll be enough juicy discourse around it to kind of keep it bumped up to the top. I'm going to rush us to the finish line a little bit just for my own schedule purposes. But Once Upon a Time in Harlem is the doc that premiered at Sundance. It was at Cannes. I haven't seen it, but the people who've seen it cannot stop raving about it. So I feel like in the doc race, that's going to be interesting. But we got to talk about Artificial before we're done here.

41:20It got rescued by Neon after every tech company in town said, no, thank you. We don't want to mess with this, especially as we kind of wonder what in the world's going on with the social reckoning, which may still be doing reshoots. Artificial seems strong to me. I guess a lot of people have seen it. You know, it's screened around town for buyers. There's probably people who aren't like telling us what they really think of it. But it doesn't have a release date yet. But when A Place in Hell moved off of Neon's schedule for this year, it did seem like maybe they were clearing the decks for Artificial.

41:48So I don't want to say I'm bullish on it. I know nothing, but I'm still so intrigued by where this can go. Yeah, I'd be pretty bullish on it, too. I think the when you saw like the reactions from people who had seen it at first, it was like this movie stinks. And it felt like that was like fake, like astroturfing to make it seem more likely like why Amazon like ditched it or whatever. right you know what I mean like it did feel like a little like they're trying to cover for them a little like a little narrative playing with but then because afterwards it was like oh actually people really like it and we've heard like I've talked to I've talked to one person who saw it and they were like it's really funny and like really good so I do think it'll be good and I think you know it's such an obvious narrative right like we saw that with the just talking about Sebastian Stan before but with The Apprentice where it just is like yeah this is the movie that you were actually told you shouldn't see and like it has this great star in Andrew Garfield doing a great performance argument let's just say for argument's sake like that feels like an obvious like why can't he get in for best actor and maybe the whole thing is like a return to form for luca after after the hunt wasn't exactly what people wanted last year i don't know i agree with you i think it's it would be it would be kind of foolish to sleep on it as a top contender for them especially like with all the discourse around it yeah yeah i mean it's so i i love luca generally, despite After the Hunt, and it's so funny to hear Luca returning to form because I'm like, what is Luca's form?

43:15Great question. I mean, look, that's what I love about him, but the only thing that the Academy has ever embraced from him is Call Me By Your Name, which some would arguably say is more of a Merchant Ivory-style film. I mean, even Challengers got only a screenplay nomination because that which was perplexing to me. But you also had Queer that year, which kind of canceled it out, canceled Challengers out in a way because it was a different studio, but all the same people worked on it. So, you know, they just didn't really know how to handle that. And then Bones and All and Suspiria, you know, he's just not.

43:56He has it all over the place. He's all over the place. I mean, he's making a biopic. He's right back in their wheelhouse. Right, right. Which, you know, he is a documentarian. So, yeah, this does feel like maybe this is like the mainstream Luca that we're waiting for that we keep being promised. And then it sort of goes off kilter a bit in the best way. I mean, I love most of his movies. Even the messy ones I think are very fascinating. Like Queer is a fascinating movie to me. Whether or not it's good, I don't know. But I enjoy it. Yeah. After The Hunt, another Venice premiere from last year that we left out of.

44:30Yes, of course. It was a weird year last year. Well, I'll wrap us up knowing that there's just so much to come from both of these. And it sounds like we'll all be at TIFF cramming in as many can titles as possible that first day. That's usually I'll see it. The Fjord 10 a.m. press screening on Thursday. Usually how this thing goes. I'll have to see something like, yeah, I'll have to pick the other club kid. Maybe. Hopefully. I kicked off my TIFF two years ago with Flow. And it was a fantastic. Yeah. Anyway, Tyler, thank you so much for joining us to do all of this. Thank you for having me. Everyone from Find Your Filmmaker Magazine.

45:04And for those of you listening, stay tuned. I'll be right back with my conversation with Noah Wiley.

45:12Now let's hear my conversation with Noah Wiley. He is nominated for three Emmys this year for his work on The Pit, for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Drama Series, of course, as an executive producer of the series, and as the director. This is a lot of hats to wear for one person on a TV show. And we spent a lot of our conversation just kind of talking about how you make that work. I'm kind of endlessly fascinated by how someone steps onto a set when they know they have that many jobs and step into the character of Dr. Robbie and then step out of it to talk about what's going to happen many episodes ahead.

45:44He'll be on the set playing his character. He won an Emmy as an actor last year, of course. And then go into the writer's room where they're still writing future episodes of season three, which they're currently shooting. We, of course, did not spoil season three. We talked about the work they did in season two, how they really built on what they had in season one, how they felt like they could expand on it in the second season, both in what the characters are able to do and the look of the show. I really liked getting to dig in with him about his work as a director and how the pit looks. It's very consistent from episode to episode, but there's a lot of visual language in there that you're not necessarily thinking about as you watch it.

46:20Noah Wiley has his eye on basically every aspect of the pit, and it is one of the most talked about shows on television. So there is a lot to get into. It was really lovely to catch up with him. I had seen him in person at an FYC event. You'll hear me reference it. But we really got to dig deep in this conversation. Hear all of that and much more in my conversation with the director, executive producer, and star of The Pit, Noah Wiley.

46:46So, Noah, at the HBO FYC event that was happening yesterday, I was kind of hanging around backstage doing other stuff. and just had the best time watching the pit crew roll in and in and in because there were so many people and then when you showed up it did have this vibe of kind of like it was a family reunion and you were the organizer like you had i know you hadn't brought everybody there but there was kind of a everyone greeting process do you do you have that kind of like camp counselor leader feel when this many members of the cast are getting together in one place and kind of shepherding everybody that's a great metaphor camp camp counselor or family reunion i think i did too yeah either one works because it presupposes that there's a group of them that want to be organized and a group of them that probably don't nonetheless that is my role at this function um yeah i mean i i just sort of slip into it i don't you know feel particularly paternal to anybody, but I do feel sort of responsible to and for this group coming together to a degree, along with Scott and John.

47:46You know, we take that responsibility really seriously and want to keep everybody employed for as long as possible, especially here in LA. So celebrating, you know, the recognition this show has had now for two years in a row validates our concepts, you know, in the most glorious way. So I was thrilled to be there yesterday and probably being like a proud parent, even though I have no right to be a parent. Well, there are some people, you know, Tal Anderson, who's been acting not, you know, not quite as long as you have, who's new to this, but, you know, someone like Jeff Kober, who you bring in and has so much experience in the business.

48:23And obviously that's people's navigating this in different ways. But I wonder if for some of the newer actors, you do feel a sense of like, all right, here's how you do this thing. And here's what this is going to be like, especially because so many of you guys are now part of awards this year as last year there was a recognition, but it's just like exploded this year. So there's, I wonder if there's that, that guiding part of it. I remember a few years ago when I became conscious of being one of the older people in the room and I was actually on an indie movie once where I looked around and was like, holy shit, I think I'm the oldest person on set.

48:50Like there isn't even an old teamster here or an old prop guy. I'm the oldest person. And I called my dad and I said, you know, the world's getting younger. And he said, well, newsflash, it only gets younger. And if you want to stay relevant, if you want to continue to work, you have to figure out a way of working with young people. And you can't say, you know what you should do, or you know what we used to do. You have to say, what do you think we should do? Or what do you think in general? And you have to make it an open-ended question. And I really do try to do that with this young ensemble and you know i'm an open book and i'm a 24 7 resource if you want that but if you don't want that then i'm not going to um try to dictate your road to you because the roads are always singular and everybody's experience is unique especially when you're dealing with all the life-changing things that this ensemble's been through in the last 18 months going from relative obscurity to global fame, having, you know, a tremendous amount of professional responsibility put on their shoulders at a relatively young age and stage in their careers.

50:01It's a lot. Yeah. So I think we're speaking on a day. I know the show's in production. Were you on set today? Okay. So I know, you know, we're not gonna talk about what's happening in season three, but knowing how many different hats that you're wearing, I wonder if just like today as an example, How many different jobs were you doing today? And maybe more broadly, how do you balance a general day of work when you're on the set? Some episodes you're directing, you've been part of the writer's room, you have all these responsibilities. What does that balance look like day to day? As diverse as I can make it, I really enjoy being involved in all aspects of the process.

50:35So today I was, I came in, I was in the second scene of the day, but I always get to work early. I always get there as early as I can. and get an overview of how everything's going and rehearsed our scenes. We had a table read-through of the next episode. So I had a meeting with John discussing that script and talking about the cuts of episode three that I directed and wrote that is now locked into the network. Congratulations. That's big. We're kind of weighing in on pre-production. We did a lot of casting today. We had some callbacks for a chemistry read for a character that is going to have some scenes with Patrick.

51:16you know, it's a diverse set of things, but they all ultimately are having to do with the same show. So it doesn't feel taxing. It feels kind of informative. I really enjoy it. How does that juggling work when you have all these different jobs, you have to focus on all these different characters, chemistry reads, bringing in new characters, and then at some point you've got to go on camera and just be one person focused on himself, being the character of Robbie again. I realize acting is one answer to that, But just wearing all those different hats, where do you do you have to do more to focus to kind of bring yourself back to that kind of single minded place as a character?

51:51It's going to sound a little, I don't know, overly stoic, but I sort of chunk my life down into extremely manageable, attainable treats and goals. To me, getting to act means I'm in a hermetically sealed environment where my entire outside life doesn't get to have any presence whatsoever. I'm only focused on the situations that we are creating in that moment with the people that I'm working with. And that feels like a vacation from the rest of my life. And at a certain point, I get tired or bored or want to find out what the writers are doing. And I get to go into the writer room and look at this broad sort of sweeping tapestry that we're trying to weave and go from micro to macro with it.

52:37And I just enjoy that versatility. I enjoy, you know, the variety. And each one sort of feels like a break from the other. And if I'm really good, I give myself a Werther's Original. Very doctor's waiting room of you, honestly. You know, if you make the gifts small and attainable, you can get through the day. I feel like if you have a job where you're on your feet all day, as I imagine you are, the word is original. It's just like that's fuel to keep you going. You know, you got to get from one scene to the next. Yeah. So do you have moments where you'll like finish a take and then someone comes up to you says, hey, can you come look at these callbacks we had for this next episode?

53:18Or is it more do you protect the space around the performance more than that, where you kind of can block it off more? I tend to invite it more than it's thrust upon me. You know, there's always email to answer and there's always questions that need to be addressed. So if I get a break and I feel like I can take the break, I will immediately go and see what I'm behind on or what I can weigh in on or go ask people what they might need of me. I mean, it sounds like a lot, but it really, you know, when you're directing, it's a lot. It's a lot. You are there all day, every day, and you need to be sort of the ringmaster of the entire circus.

53:54When you're acting, it's quadrants that you're responsible for, moments that you're responsible for, and tone as the number one on the call sheet. But it's not like heavy, heavy lifting. I don't know. It hasn't been debilitating yet. And I'm asking my wife to keep an eye on me. So far, she's not. Well, we've watched Dr. Robbie kind of have to learn to maybe set some boundaries. So it doesn't seem to be getting that bad in real life yet. I had stopped in therapy a lot earlier than he did. So I've got tools in place. That's really key to it. Well, I know that you did your first directing in TV a while ago in a different show that you were on.

54:35It seems like there was kind of like an itch that started then that you were building up to this point. But was it a thing where you were on the set of I think it was Falling Skies and saying, wait a second, I'm done. My scene's over. I want more to have to do. Was it like kind of the wanting to look behind the curtain and see what else was going on there that that drove you to start directing like that? I think it was always profoundly curious and aspirational about it, but put it on an extremely high pedestal. had a lot of imposter syndrome about not believing I was smart enough or educated enough to try.

55:05And Falling Skies was an interesting situation because we'd had so many different showrunners blow through there in a relative lifespan that I inadvertently started weighing in on the writing way more than I ever had before to keep a certain line of continuity and started pitching things that I thought would be interesting to get into and even wrote a couple scenes that found their way into the show. And that was really encouraging. When I realized that, you know, it wasn't just that I had an idea, it was an idea that everybody seemed to think was a better idea than the one that we had. That was enough to sort of get over the initial hump of imposter syndrome.

55:42And then the cast nominated me to direct an episode. When that episode's director fell out for a personal reason, they said, Noah should do it. And so I don't know that I would have even volunteered or how long I would have waited if they hadn't done that. But I'm so grateful that they did, because it really opened up a whole new passion for me. You know, I became instantly addicted, because it was the first time I went to work, absolutely engaged on every level, intellectually and emotionally. And I was scared, and I was unsure, and I was required to be totally present and flexible. And, you know, that's an interesting balance to have, do your homework, but be willing to throw it out at a moment's notice is an interesting point of improvisation to engage in hours and hours a day.

56:32And I just loved it. Well, I think about the pit, because, you know, the way that the set is constructed and the way that it's, you know, consistent, it's real time. There's a well-oiled machine quality to it, obviously, where there's so many things that are put into place, but then you're bringing in different directors. And as you're saying, as a director, you have to keep your eye on every single thing. So what do you feel like you're just taking the reins of something huge that's already moving ahead and you have to jump on or do you I'm curious about the consuming nature of directing something like that when it's in a building that you know it's this team that you know but being a director seems like it's a totally different way to approach that space it's not when you're the protagonist of the show because being the protagonist is about moving energy around in the story you know now I'm throwing the ball to you now I'm throwing the ball to you now I'm reacting to the way you threw it to me and now I'm throwing it over here and that is basically what you do with the camera you're putting the camera where you want the energy and the audience's attention to go and sometimes it's a misdirect and sometimes to clue and sometimes it's you know um you know it's whatever you want it to be but i find that being a player coach being on the floor and being the first one to notice a moment isn't being captured but if they just turn the camera five degrees they would or if an actor just lowered his right hand it wouldn't block the shot we're trying to get so in the the castmates will tell you like in the middle of takes.

57:48I'm constantly just adjusting people and moving things around while I'm giving the performance I'm giving. I'm able to sort of go in and out. So I remember seeing a clip of Barbra Streisand directing a scene with Mandy Patinkin and Yentl, where she was literally directing him and acting with him simultaneously. And she had such presence of where the camera needed to be and how the stakes needed to be in the performance. And I thought, oh, So some people can do that. And I would love to be one of those people. Do you think if you weren't playing a character who was also in charge of the space, that you would be able to do it in the same way?

58:24Like if you were playing a less powerful character than Robbie, that it would work as well? I think it's taught me how to sort of move the energy around. But I almost look forward to some opportunity. I'm going to have to direct something where I don't have to also go to my marks simultaneously. And you have to have a lot of trust in the people you're working with. You have to trust your operator. You have to trust your script supervisor. You have to trust your DP and your first AD implicitly and your fellow actors. But in terms of performance, I've been doing it long enough. First take goes to the left.

58:55Second take goes to the right. Third take goes right up the middle. And I'm pretty much when I'm in the zone of what I want to do. And if you get the nod from the people whose opinion you trust, you feel pretty comfortable about moving on. And I got over being embarrassed or self-conscious looking stupid so long ago publicly. that it's not hard for me to play or act the fool and, you know, make everybody feel comfortable about it. How has the show evolved in the way that it's shot or the way that it's directed over time? Because as a viewer, it seems so consistent from season one to season two.

59:30But I know that you guys learn and you adapt and you change things. So I guess in making season two, which we've seen, what were you guys able to do differently? Well, we had a lot of lofty notions in the beginning about the way we were going to go about it. Some of them blew up in our faces. Some of them got validated like crazy. Like the idea to do no music validated like crazy. Really helps with the sense of immersion. Photographically, we had a decision. We weren't really ever going to photograph the patients' faces. We were going to almost show them as bodies and only focus on the practitioners.

59:59And very early on, we recognized it's very hard to have empathy for people you don't see. And you can't really get involved in a storyline that you can't see register on a human face. So we moved off of that very quickly because it didn't work. But it, you know, every year we have a sort of gut check meeting where we talk about the photography and everything else on the show. Season two at the very beginning, John came in and said, it's looking too good. It's looking too polished. You guys are landing your moves. You're composing in too pretty framing. You know, remember, this is you don't have the best seat in this house, but you're trying to get the best view.

1:00:37so the camera's constantly moving to get to the angle where it can see the most of the information. But you always want to withhold something from the audience, otherwise they're too sated in what they're seeing. You want to keep them curious and slightly voyeuristic. Like they shouldn't be here, but they can almost see, almost see if they leaned a little bit more to the right. So we have to be vigilant. We all have artistic impulses and come to the table with tastes and things that we think would be appropriate. But like I said at the outset, we were given a very specific set of golf clubs to play the course with.

1:01:13And there's variety in how you employ them, but you really need to just stick to those clubs. As the characters have been changing in season two, it's, you know, the camera's objective. It's, you know, someone who's visiting the ED, like you said, but is Robbie's state of mind or someone else's state of mind affecting the way that the show looks in any way as it goes on? Oh, absolutely. And directors can't help but to put their own imprimatur on something. You know, I describe directors of two camps, hunters and gatherers. Gatherers often come from editors, script supervisors, DPs, and they're looking to gain, get footage.

1:01:49They're going out there almost with a big basket and saying, how much can I collect so that when I get back into the editing room, I can build my tapestry out of as many pieces as I can. And I'm better served by getting as many takes, as many pieces as I can to build that tapestry. Totally legit. Then there's the hunters who go, no, no, I know what I want and I'm only going to shoot what I want and they're only going to be able to cut what I shoot. I'm coming in with such a singular point of view of how this scene is going to be played. They're all talking in the corner, but this is going to play on the little boy's face and that's what you shoot.

1:02:22That's a very strong point of view, but that's a hunter with a, you know, very clear idea of what he wants. Both work on the pit, you know, Damien Marcano, hunter all day long. Uta Breswitz, gatherer of the highest degree, you know, and yet their shows have a textual similarity, but they really aren't. If you watch them stylistically, Damien goes way more for the emotion of the scene. Uta tends to go way more for the aesthetic balance of the and composition, framing, photography, telling the story as opposed to the words. I see a lot of variety within it, but I'm also watching this stuff in every stage of its incarnation.

1:03:04So I can micro - Which kind of director are you, hunter or gatherer? I try to have the confidence of the hunter and the conservative nature of a gatherer simultaneously. I try to recognize when I could get myself in trouble if I don't have the pieces I need, but also have the confidence and a strong point of view or take when I feel it to trust that, you know, it'll be right or wrong. It'll be my right. I think that's a sensible balance to try to do some of both. Similar question, but about from the writing point of view, when you head into season two, you realize what works, what doesn't work.

1:03:40What can you expand on? What can you do differently writing season two than you could in season one? It's tricky when you have to cut for length. And, you know, we tend to write long scripts because everybody talks fast. But a 77-page script cut down to a 47-minute show is difficult to execute. You end up having a little bit of too much. And in a show that is really already kind of metronomically paced, what you take out can cause that house of cards to fall. So when you get in the editing room and you have to make these Sophie's choices about which storyline is going to be sacrificed off of its elegance because it's now going to be anemic and not elegant, it's hard.

1:04:24And you try to apply those lessons the next year. I would say the biggest one I learned this year, not to talk too much shop here, you want to write a balance of medical and personal. So you tend to write, here's a trauma scene, and we all talk medicine trauma scene. And then we come out of the trauma scene, hey, how was your night? oh my god i had the craziest night last night we learned a little bit about the character when you're long you don't cut the medicine you cut the personal it's just a rule of thumb because the medicine tends to track the narrative of the story better and those are the big load-bearing storylines the other stuff tends to be more frivolous and so you cut it but we end up cutting this character so the lesson applied is put the personal in the professional have the trauma scene also include wherever possible and asides and ancillary conversations that give you that same kind of texture not robbing you of the stakes of the moment but giving you a greater complexity to it and then get around the half the problem of having those seem uh not germane to the story of telling or ancillary well the cutting for time thing like if you're making er like you have like like a very set specific amount of minutes that you get, you're on HBO Max, you have, in theory, unlimited time.

1:05:37But it sounds like you guys are cutting it not from like what someone's telling you to do, but from what the story, or like what the episode needs to feel like. Well, this is also kind of inside baseball, you know. But HBO is not the last - We love inside baseball, please keep going. HBO is not the last distributor of the pit. They're going to sell the licensing fee around the world to various other channels who may still work off of a commercial model and need that to come in at 47 minutes, or they're going to cut an extra 10 minutes off the show at their arbitrary choice. So if you're going to control the quality of your show and you're going to protect it for a global market, you should bring it in on an airtime that works for all formats.

1:06:17And I think that everybody's saying that the viability of that model works better than delivering an hour, 10-minute episode of a really great, this is us, but that can't play around the world in the same way that a 48-minute episode of The Pit can. We also, oddly enough, when the show's on other streamers and things, they don't necessarily cut the commercials into the act structure that we write to. They cut them in on the time code that is on their algorithm. So it could be very inelegant when those commercials get interrupted. That you can't foresee. But to the best of our ability, we try to shape the show so that you could put it on another network and you could cut commercials into it and have it almost feel like that old breath of air that you would get when you'd go to the bathroom or go get something out of the fridge and come back and keep watching.

1:07:05Have you watched it with commercials cut in in other markets and just kind of have to grab your armrest? You know, we get on an HBO show, you're like, yeah, we could say fuck, and yeah, we got an hour to play with, you know? And then you realize, okay, we could say fuck. You know, that's now becomes our discretion how and when to use that freedom. And similarly, you know, sometimes art is created by its frame. You give something a 48-minute frame and it becomes its own discipline. And delivering a satisfying viewing experience that is multifaceted as the pit is in 48 minutes becomes a really wonderful creative and technical challenge.

1:07:46One that I think we're all up for exploring. And instead of feeling like, wow, you know, be great to have one that felt like a two parter and like, well, let's see if we can make this work before we break the rule. Let's let's make it work. Or even the frame of being within the building, because I feel like in second season you explored that, you know, go across the street, go on the roof. There's the parking garage like there was a little bit more of that. But I imagine there was a really careful consideration of how far you can stray before I came in. I came in the writing room and I said, I got the best idea.

1:08:15This 15 hours is so unwieldy. What if we just take the first hour and show how everybody wakes up and goes to work? We take the last hour and show how everybody goes home. We get context for the day that they can't share. And we get context for the day that they have that they won't share. And everybody looked at the round table like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Scott goes, yeah. I mean, maybe in like season four or five when we have to. But if we don't have to, we shouldn't. Like this is we've built ourselves a puzzle that can be infuriating, but we haven't figured it hasn't been impossible yet. So let's not open it up until we have to.

1:08:53As the show scales globally, let's keep the narrative really, really tight until it's necessary to give greater and greater context. But then do you have Robbie on the bridge and that opening shot is saying like, OK, you think you know what the show is. We can do this. We're not going to do it. but just kind of reminding audiences that there are options if you choose to. Well, that was an interesting conversation because Rob was going to ride to work on the motorcycle and it was always going to be with a helmet on its head. I took a motorcycle training course to get my license and I learned how to ride around the back lot of Warner Brothers and in the hills of Hollywood.

1:09:27Everybody was very nervous about me riding the bike, the helmet, the helmet, the helmet. And then we get to Pittsburgh and I said to John the night before we shot that scene, I don't know that he wears that helmet. and John goes, what are you talking about? And I said, hear me out. If he tells everybody he does and doesn't, and we see that he doesn't and tells everybody he does, we know he's lying and we won't know what he's telling the truth about. We won't know quite where he's coming from all season long with the first visual clue being, why is a doctor riding to work on a motorcycle without a helmet?

1:10:01That will be so discordant in everybody's mind. And that not being mentioned or him lying about it will really bother people. And, you know, we went with the other choice, which ended up being, you know, really provocative in exactly the intended way. Yeah, you were like, I'm going to make really make some people mad with this one intentionally. But boy, I bet they got mad. That's episode one. We didn't shoot that until the weekend after the Emmys. We didn't shoot that until September. So we had plans half the season, shot half the season before we got to that very pivotal moment and decided to make that slight course correction, which then went back and informed everything we'd shot in a totally different way.

1:10:44So it's interesting how you can apply these things. And when sometimes in the 11th hour, it's not too late. Yeah. Closing question, because this is another thing that you guys brought up at the FYC event, where you kind of at the end of the panel talked about the unsung heroes of the show, which there's so many different departments. It takes so many people to make a TV show. But I wonder if it's possible among the Emmy nominees. And, you know, there's, again, so many more nominations for this season. Was there any department or person who got that nomination? You're like, thank God they've finally been recognized.

1:11:12Like, this is someone who is essential for making this. It's getting that moment. Last year, we did not receive nominations for our set design or for our editors. And this year, Nina and Mark have been, I think, have been nominated, which I think is really phenomenal. I do feel that Jojo Calejo, Joanna Calejo, our DP, is doing some of the most revolutionary camera work in TV right now. And I would have loved to have seen her work recognized with the nomination. but I bestow on her daily an immense amount of gratitude and praise and hopefully that makes up for it. And it'll be rectified in subsequent seasons.

1:11:52Yeah. We'll get it. You know, when you put a show in Los Angeles and you say, we're going to do 15 episodes in LA and get you home for dinner every night and we won't kill you on Fridays, the level of talent that is willing to sometimes even work for a smaller rate to get a better quality of life is extreme. and it is a deep bench. So one plus one equals three every day when you've got really talented people grateful for the opportunity to come to work and do work that is meaningful and respected. So it's not laborious. It's just, it's sometimes challenging, but it's never not fun. Yeah, and you hope that every studio is paying attention to the work that you guys get out of filming in LA and get a lot more people to be able to sleep in their own beds at night, which is all anybody wants.

1:12:43It required, you know, basically taking a light on to our transportation budget, which, you know, I'm sorry to my Teamster brothers to say we had to basically shrink the footprint down to something that never left a soundstage, except occasionally. But in success, like we talked about, you can begin to open those types of things up off that, you know, anemic economic model. And hopefully more shows will take advantage of it. Yeah. That does it for today's episode. If you're an Emmy voter, get your ballots in. Time is almost up. In the meantime, we'll be back next week. We'll close out our fall preview series.

1:13:25And as you might know, it's about to get very busy with fall festival time. So lots coming up, even as Emmy voting season winds down. In the meantime, This podcast is edited by Brett Fox and produced by Brett Fox and me. Our theme music is by Dave Gonzalez. Thanks again to our co-host today, Tyler Coates. Subscribe to the Prestige Junkie newsletter at theankler.com. Watch this podcast on YouTube. If you're not already, you can also subscribe there or on Apple or Spotify or anywhere else you get your podcasts. We'll see you next week.