Fall Movie Preview Part 5 with Clayton Davis, Plus Jake Johnson On a Long-Awaited Reunion

0:00I was talking to a couple of our fellow pundit colleagues and I mentioned like, don't sleep on Michael. And they looked at me like I had said like the F word to them. I was just like... Hi everyone, I'm Katie Rich. This is the Prestige Junkie Podcast. And today we are wrapping up our five part fall preview series with a whole bunch of great movies from a whole bunch of studios. All of the indies, basically, we're putting all in one place. Chris Rosen is back to join me to close out this wonderful series. And joining us is someone we, Chris, you and I have both known for what feels like a million years.

0:35We've been at it way too long. Clayton Davis, chief awards editor at Variety. I'm so glad that you're here to do this with us. Hi, guys. I don't know if you know this. I met the both of you in person the first time at the same time during RIP AOL Build. I was just wondering if that was it. That's the first time I met both of you. There's some Getty photos of us. They're all over the place. It's a very chubby Clayton Davis, and he was still thinking he could hold on to his hair when it just started. I think I had the same thing. It started receding, and it was a little after that I said, it's time to shave it, guys.

1:10See, I think I was young and gorgeous back then. My clothes might be dubious at this point, but I enjoy those Getty photos living on. So we've been talking about award season together for quite a long time, and now we just get to continue doing it because there's nothing more fun than that. I can't believe we're here already. I know. Well, yeah, we'll get into it. So we're going to talk about films from places like Movie, Lionsgate, Bleeker Street, Magnolia, Sumerian. Maybe another new studio will emerge by the end of this festival season. Then after all that, Chris Rosen's got the interview today.

1:41He talked to Jake Johnson, a longtime fave of the podcast. And what is he? What's he promoting, Chris? He's promoting The Sun Never Sets, his Joe Swanberg movie. but he also had a huge summer as I talked about with him. Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, The Dink on Apple, and he's got a new show on NBC this fall. So it's a busy time for Jay Johnson. I didn't hear New Girl Reboot or New Girl Sequel. Well, you have to listen to the interview to get that exclusive. So yes, all of that and more coming up. Welcome to the show. So Clayton, we really did save the best for last here, I think, because I think we're going to have so much fun talking about these titles.

2:18You said in the intro, you can't believe we're here. Just how you feeling? You feeling ready to jump back into awards season? Sure. I mean, Emmys have felt longer than usual. And I think going into fall festivals feels like, you know, it's a transition. But dare I say, movies feel good. Like, there's some stuff I saw early. There's some stuff I'm excited to see on the ground. I don't think this is a sewn-up year. I had people that love to call it in the summer that stopped calling it. We have a lot more road ahead of us. But it's good. It's good. I'm ready. I'm ready for some really good movies.

2:54You know, it's interesting. We started recording these in early August when Odyssey Fever was really at its peak. I feel like every episode of this has started talking about the Odyssey. And now things are a little bit quieter. But I guess I'll put it out of the way. Clayton, where are you in the Odyssey winning Best Picture at this point in late August? I mean, could it? Absolutely. It just needs. I mean, we got eight more months to go or something like that or nine more months to go. So, yeah, it could. We've never had a film like this from Nolan that came so quick after a win. He's like two years post-win.

3:27And he's president of the DGA. And I've been bringing that up as like not as like a hindrance or something to help him along. But president of the DGA, we've never had someone like Nolan at the peak of their filmmaking ability. And I wonder how that feels and looks throughout a season. Like the DJ say, here, King, like, please, you know, take another one. You were at the DGA Awards this past year, right? Where like everyone got up on stage and was like, President Nolan, what a set. Like they couldn't stop talking about it. It was incredible. Yeah, I think it's going to it's going to be it's going to be an interesting year.

4:04But can he win? Yeah, I don't think he has to do as much as he did last time. People, films just have to not live up to their expectations, I think. Yeah, well, we're going to talk about plenty of those. Wait, so Chris, heat check on you on Odyssey since we started this journey. Have you changed any on where you think it is? Still think it's got to be the frontrunner right now, but there's a lot of time left, and we'll see. I do think it is—I kind of have been saying, it is a little vulnerable because I do think people could be like, been there, done that, or whatever. And if something lives up to expectations or goes beyond it, I think it could knock off.

4:37But at the same time, it's going to get 14, 15 nominations, so it's obviously got to be the frontrunner. can I ask you guys a hot take on this with the Odyssey where do you fall because we don't know where she's going to go Anne Hathaway leader supporting where should she go I've been beating this I don't know if I have like an ethical like this is the correct place to go but I say she should go lead it's a wide open field she's great in it she's had an amazing year she is so great in the end of Oak Street I don't remember I had a great time I heard it's so much fun she's great in it but like Odyssey is so clearly her move unless verity is something that we don't see coming um but yeah i feel like she should go lead katie after so katie talked about in clayton i know you wrote about it and then i with the time i was like no way supporting she'd win supporting probably and now i'm like i think she should just go lead yeah we got you i'm like the field is is like thin or very like flexible like there's a lot of room there and i just think like it just makes sense for her to go lead.

5:38And while she's not like a traditional lead actress performance, she's definitely the lead actress of the movie. And you could kind of fudge it. And we've seen that with like Lily Gladstone and Michelle Williams historically. So I'm like, yes, let her go lead. And I think she would get in if she went lead. So I don't think it's like a matter of her not getting in. I think she could go in for lead and that'd be cool. Yeah. I'd be clear. I also don't think it's category fraud either way. It's not one of those clear cut situations. I think whatever she chooses, looking at the race, I think, yes, she can get in lead.

6:07I just think she can win supporting. But that also comes with, do you believe the Samantha Morton hype is real? And I don't know. I think Samantha Morton can win supporting. But also, I mean, we may talk about some titles here. There's a lot still out there to see in the supporting race, especially actresses where you're kind of like, well, we kind of can tell what's coming and there's just not any obvious. Like there's Julianne Moore, who we won't talk about because we did A24 earlier. But other than that, it feels open in interesting ways. Okay, we're going to talk about a lot of small movies in this because we're talking about some smaller indies.

6:35But we're going to start with Lionsgate in an enormous movie. Michael has crossed the billion-dollar mark, which is, what was it, the second of the year, first of the year? Like, it's after Super Mario Bros. I didn't look at box office. It was second after Super Mario Bros. It is a massive movie. And, Clayton, you have the unenviable position of you put up your, like, Oscar predictions charts in, like, June, which Chris and I don't have to do. So you have to put your money where your mouth is. And you were all in on Michael. and it looks like you, as of today, it's not in your best picture top 10, but I assume you think it's still very much in the mix.

7:06Definitely top 15, yeah. So it made a billion dollars. It's obviously a huge hit, but the Super Mario Galaxy movie, we're not considering in the same way. So why do you think Michael has the staying power? Because we've seen this episode before. It was called Bohemian Rhapsody last time. I just think we have the quote unquote Oscar villain every season. The minute I saw Michael, I was like, my God, this is the movie that film Twitter is going to hate. They're going to be so loud and obnoxious about it and be like, this movie is the worst movie ever. And they'll point to the Rotten Tomatoes score.

7:38Yes, it's a bad score. Critics aren't Oscar voters. I don't. Listen, we can argue about what movie we think it should have been. But people I've spoken to that have watched that movie, Oscar voters that have watched that movie were like, it was like really great. Like it was so fun. It was so great. The music thing is Michael's music really speaks to it. Jafar, I think, is remarkable. I just think it is when it gets a PGA nom and it like gets some stuff. That feels like a guaranteed prediction PGA nom. Like the pathway is just like there and people don't want to see it. So, I mean, right now it's sitting outside the 10.

8:20But like, you know, do I think it's the best picture winner? No. But do I think like it can get in? yeah like i i think we're also i've been saying this for years we are due for a film that's best picture and best picture only nominee and like i look for what film that film could look like what if it's just michael like michael just against best picture and that's it that is because we haven't had one of those i'm thinking like selma had to like there's been a couple that came close uh mutiny on the bounty i think it was like or yes or nice some of that yeah uh chris you're usually all over the predicting pga nominations i feel like the minute clayton said that you were right there with them to Clayton's point like the line like when you go through it if you're thinking about it like PGA nomination feels like absolutely secured Jafar at SAG seemingly would be a very likely nominee and maybe even the ensemble at SAG I don't think it's actually without like precedent or you could consider it there I'm like at BAFTA I just especially the way BAFTA is like at least long list mentions for like him and Coleman Jafar and Coleman and maybe even outside shot like a long list picture mention it like it's going to show up in so many different places.

9:24And we didn't even mention like the Golden Globes, where I think it would do really well as well. It's going to go comedy side, I've been told. So like comedy, I think, is also going to present its way. It would be a musical, right? And there's not really any other. I guess the debut was kind of the only other musical we're looking at here. Yeah. And yeah, musical side. Yeah. And so you put all that together and it's like, how would it not be at least like top 15 for Best Picture or certainly maybe even top 10? I think it's very possible. And I don't think like even Jafar making it in for best actor, I think it is a great impersonation of Michael Jackson at the very least.

9:57Right. Like and I think the the problem I had with the movie is forget what the movie just the movie that it is. I don't think this like this script is just it doesn't feel like it's going. There's so many interesting things about that era of Michael Jackson, like making thriller, like all these things that I actually wanted to see in the movie that are just not in it. So it doesn't even tell like that era of Michael Jackson story incredibly compellingly. but everything that's not an onstage performance or a performance of some kind you kind of feel like there's something missing which is a great point and by the way like bohemian rhapsody like i always say everything leading up until live aid is so clunky right i'm always looking at the way you end your movie matters so much and i'm telling you i still believe this till the day i die coda won best picture because it ended its movie putting you in a puddle of tears and it didn't matter that hour and 15 minutes that happened before that so it's just about that moment so all that said like i'm like yeah i think it's definitely competitive and i'll be curious to see like for jafar to get in for best actor like that's obviously like we're not going to talk about many of the best actor contenders here but like we've talked about there's so many like very strong contenders this year right like seemingly and we've already seen like matt damon and ryan gotsling so it's just like a loaded field but like again like we know they like a biopic and like that really does stand out as like a different it's just did not there's no other performance like that and so that maybe has like an advantage too if it gets in or like some of these other movies aren't good i mean people will be incredibly angry like the whole time as it's being considered and there's a peter farrelly movie coming out this year like the oscar villains are everywhere i will say this i was i was at an early screening of paper tiger recently and i was talking to a couple of our fellow pundit colleagues and i mentioned like don't sleep on michael and And they looked at me like I had said the F word to them.

11:42So I'm like, I already know people are not even going to like that we're speaking it into existence. But at the same time, I think you have to take it seriously. So there you go. And by the way, you say something, Chris, and it reminded me, and this is an apt comparison, I could easily see Jafar being the Taron Egerton of the year, got everything but missed in the end. Justice for Rocketman, always. And people would be like, oh, you see, it was never going to make it. It was obviously close. Like, you know, I'm not saying it's definitely in, but it's it's top 15. And you're you're fooling yourself if you don't think so.

12:14It feels like the trick for it is that best actor is crowded and also best picture is crowded with big movies. Like if you had a year where you didn't have Dune and the Odyssey and Project Hail Mary and all these other ones, having kind of that blockbuster slot, which we usually do, would feel a lot more obvious for Michael. But it's been a good year. It makes it like even obsession is going to be kind of writing something of a similar way. and that might make it trickier in Best Picture than it was for Bohemian Rhapsody. Yep. Okay, so we have Lionsgate up on deck and I did want to talk about Hunger Games, Sunrise on the Reaping before we end this because I think I just looked at it and was like, oh, this movie's going to be enormous.

12:48Like, it's probably going to be huge and I don't know if anyone, any of us wants to make any realistic predictions for it, but I'm just flagging it. Anyone want to bite on anything on this one? I've always said, like, this, the franchise, like, costume omission has been one of probably the biggest things. Has it never been nominated for costumes? No, it's never been nominated for an Oscar at all. That's crazy. And I think the costumes have always been pretty impeccable. I think you could have made an argument for some production design love, maybe makeup here and there. But, you know, unless like it's really about to like create itself in this thing, I think it's probably just going to have to enjoy all the money it's going to make.

13:27Fair enough, Chris. Any hope for Sunrise on the Reaving on your own? No, I was excited the last time around they had a song, Olivia Rodrigo's song. I think it was Safe and Sound or something. I forget what it was called. Maybe that was a Taylor Swift song, but whatever it was. That was a Taylor Swift one that didn't get nominated. And neither did the Olivia Rodrigo song. So long story short, it's like, I love it, love it, but I'm not expecting anything. So there you go. Fair enough. So let's really move on to something completely different and talk about Mubi. I think I correctly got all of the titles that they're releasing for this year's Oscar race because their deal with international versus U.S.

13:57rights is very confusing. Like there's a lot of neon titles that are neon here and movie overseas. They had a bunch of stuff come out at Cannes. But let's start. And also I'll say, I want to talk about Critics Awards, Indie Spirits, the entire landscape of this stuff. Because like Teenage Attacks and Death at Camp Miasma, I would love for it to be in the mix for something for the Oscars. I think that's an incredible movie. I don't know how realistic that is. But I do think that's something that people are going to be talking a lot about at the end of the year. And I'm curious to see how far like Gillian Anderson, Jane Sherbrin's screenplay, the production design, something like that could go at some of these smaller awards.

14:30So either of you guys as bullish on it as I am. I actually, I haven't seen the movie yet, but I, what I, what's interesting about it is that it has this really undertone of like, the, I call it the leaners that people will lean into and be like, oh, I actually love that movie. Like, they'll just like say that and you see them get like really, really happy. And there, and there's some, I felt that with movies like The Farewell and The Farewell was in its run. Like when some things you clearly can see are small, but they have like life to them. And like, I know that it's going to play in a special way at one of the fall festivals that's coming up that, you know, it's already out.

15:11So I think the fact that it's going to be somewhere on the circuit is a proof that it's going to maybe have some legs. What it actually can do, I think will ultimately depend on how Mubi mounts this campaign. But I think it's a little engine that could. Yeah, I mean, to talk broadly, like Mubi had the substance two years ago it had this huge breakthrough. Die My Love did not really go as far for it. Like their campaign arm is somewhat untested compared to like Neon A24, all of that. But they have a lot of titles this year. I don't know that any of them are kind of as obvious a breakthrough potential as a substance.

15:43But like, Chris, do you think that movie can campaign these titles the way that they need to? Yeah, I think so. And I think a lot of times it comes down to the movies, right? Like Die My Love just was not the movie. I don't think. I think on paper, you could like going in before where people saw it it's like oh a Lynn Ramsey movie with Jennifer Lawrence this is going to be maybe pretty great and it just even it just wasn't what it I don't think it was the biggest success at least for me creatively even knowing like Lynn Ramsey makes polarizing movies it felt even more polarizing than you would maybe have even wanted so like this one I think like playing pretty like already out so we know like playing pretty broadly did like strong reviews and I think they could keep it up there like you said like not like as a best picture thing or whatever but screenplay certainly and like these smaller awards I mean I could be shocked if it doesn't like get into the spirits or like you know it gets a bunch of critics awards like regional critics awards for maybe Gillian Anderson or Hannah Einbinder and stuff like that so yeah I think they're capable and it just depends on the movies basically Hannah Einbinder an award for the Emmy she's about to lose to Kato Flynn uh and we'll get to Kato Flynn in a minute also um but what you were saying Chris about Die My Love is kind of how I'm feeling about Fatherland which I think I've probably said this on the air like I saw it the day I got to Cannes and have to see it again because I was jet lagged in a way I could not have comprehended and I think I saw it um but it is quiet it's Powell Palakowski it's black and white it's all the things that you know we know from him from Ida and Cold War uh Sandra Huller is a lead actress in this and I guess they have Rose also which I haven't seen which premiered at Berlin she's a lead in that as well um she's also obviously got Project Hail Mary and Digger um I think a lot of people have been looking at Fatherland as being like a Sandra Huller actress then she gets him for supporting somewhere else I just I can't tell how far I think it's going to go.

17:25And I don't know if I'm being unfair because I was so tired when I saw it. Clayton, have you seen Fatherland? I have. I see it tomorrow or Friday at the time of recording. By the time people hear this, you'll have seen Fatherland. Thank God. I do hear it's under 90 minutes. So already two and a half stars. This is why I thought I could see it the day I landed at Cannes and I would be OK. But I was just out of my mind. I keep telling people, man, you could be a snuff film if you're 80 minutes, man. Getting the bare minimum out of me. It does punch hard for those. I mean, Sandra Hewler. I mean, listen, like, how can you argue that this year is the year of Sandra Hewler and Penelope Cruz?

17:58Right. Like just multiple titles. What about Anne Hathaway and Zendaya? And when we go into Oscar talk, it looks like it's going to be. I mean, Zendaya, listen, go get a Dune nomination. I'll scream. The drama is right there. Crazy. But no, I think Sandra Hewler is it's going to be interesting because she's filming, I think, a bunch this fall. So she's not going to be as present on the early side. She seems to not love the campaign process either, which good for her. Yeah. It's going to be interesting to see what everyone coalesces around. And, you know, Rose is a foreign language performance.

18:30It's a non-English language performance. Am I correct? Yeah, it's German. And Fatherland is not. So it's going to be interesting. There are two non-English language going on. So two supporting English performances. Where do they split the difference? Or is it actually is a boat split situation they can't get? because I don't think Fatherland or Rose feel like Best Picture players but Palakowski's been the lone director before. I know, he surprises us. So you never know. Yeah, I mean, I think all the same things about Sandra Hula and then I'm like, well, who are we going to put in Best Actress?

18:58Like someone's got to get in there. So then you're like, how can I write off Fatherland? Best Actress is just like no man's land this year. Something weird's going to happen. Literally. And figuratively. So with the other movie canned titles, I haven't seen Minotaur yet. I think I'm going to get to that at Toronto. know um they have a long winter which is coming to i believe tell your ride quote unquote we don't know it is going to tell you right based on uh the designations of the festivals it's going to be there and i think chris i mean do we see all of our strangers together yes i think so tell your idea we're we i feel like we were talking and we were like when's our andrew haig moment about to happen like when is that really coming in because they tried really hard for all the strangers to be that and i really thought it was going to be and like he feels like in that maybe like west Anderson type of trajectory or Richard Linklater maybe is a better example of like you've been around for a while and people love you we're just waiting for the movie to do it for yeah so maybe well and Weekend may be his best movie and it was his first one he broke out with so we didn't realize how good we had it um but on a similar note like the Lucas Don't moment I think is on its way and I saw Coward at Cannes and thought it was really terrific I was really like bowled over by it and it's emotional in a way that a lot of these movies we're talking about are not necessarily the two lead actors whose names are Belgian and I'm not going to get them right.

20:16They won the they co-won the Best Actor Award. There's a lot of ties at Cannes this year. Oh, not great. Yeah. I mean, everyone needs to make some decisions. OK, especially when you have a director duo also winning anyway. But I just love Coward. It's coming out at Christmas. It's doing like the full festival run. I'm already getting like emails about it. Pre-festival screening. I think they're trying to get it in front of people. It had the weird thing where it premiered at Cannes the same day as La Bola Negro, which is also a gay war epic from Europe. It's bizarre that they did that. But I'm just going to keep rooting for Coward to really be able to stand on its own because I think it deserves it.

20:49I was a huge fan of Close. It was my favorite film that year. So I've actually been scared to watch Coward because I love... So I didn't tell you, right? Cried in a way I haven't cried in a really long time. Yeah. I think Coward's at Telluride. It should be one way or another because I feel like that movie could play really well there. I, yeah, I mean, I'm looking forward to it. I think, like we're saying, like pulling the heartstrings is great. The only thing that's holding me back just from the title, like the release date's late, but if they're running it, obviously at all these festivals, I think that's okay.

21:22But I worry about those. I don't know. I worry about December titles now because I'm just like, it's so late and people are already, you got to hope people are seeing it obviously like in October, November, because people have gotten, they're already ingrained in what they're thinking and they don't really have room for great movies that come now at the end of the year. typically. October's the new December. I kind of. I mean, Dune will be an exception, I think, because it's so big. Yes, because it's Dune. And Marty Supreme obviously was too, but even Marty Supreme, you could argue, underperformed in a lot of ways.

21:50So, not just wins. I mean, like in nominations. A24 tellingly is not putting any movies out that late this year. But also, like, that's a Sony Classic strategy sometimes, is they'll put a movie out really late in the year, and they'll qualify it, but it will have played every single regional festival. Exactly. And I think Howard could definitely do that. And I would say industry voters, and even us as pundits we are uh wired to make sure that we consider one movie from december that we say we're not going to go all in on what we're about to say is going to happen until that december movie drops and we've already said dune so we gotta wait for dune right it's hard to add others on top of that yeah 1917 did that as well and then still lost in the end yeah i mean it's been since million dollar baby i think that a best picture winner has pulled it off and that was may as well have been 100 years ago.

22:37You know, it works so differently now. So yeah, I think the Marty Supreme example will be haunting plenty of these people for quite a while. You guys ready to move on to a different studio? Yep. All right, let's talk about Bleaker Street. They are going all in on TIFF, which makes me so happy. They have a bunch of world premieres going to a festival that I think deserves more of them. And we have either not seen or are not going to talk about whether or not we have seen a bunch of these. But I do think the real obvious standout is that there's a new Mike Lee movie coming from Bleecker Street. Clayton, where were you on the hard truths devastation with Mary-Jean-Baptiste two years ago?

23:13You mean a person who should have won the Oscar Mary-Jean-Baptiste? Yes. The best performance of any gender of that year? Just murdered it. She was so robbed. I can talk about this because there's a Mike Lee feature in the magazine that is this week. So everyone's going to know that I have seen Tender Loving Care, Mike Lee's new movie that is under an hour and 45 minutes. Congratulations, world. This is the secret theme of this episode. I'm gonna keep on putting it out there so people know. And I do not say this lightly, what I'm about to say. I think it's Mike Lee's masterpiece. Oh, man. The man has made a lot of movies.

23:52Secrets and Lies exists in a very special place in me that I'm like, leave it there. It's always been his pinnacle. I kind of accept that he'll never hit that again. And our truth is great. And it was very close. But but this man is emotional. And this Cato Flynn timeline that we're in, I'm enjoying it. So she's going to win that Emmy and then win that Oscar. Is that what we're saying here? That is going to be we had the Anne Hathaway discussion before. I don't know where everyone's going to go. OK. You know, listen, there's two hats I wear besides this one. There's, you know, the pundit purist, you know, like, you know, where should you go?

24:31and then what strategically a studio would do. And, you know, if I'm honest with myself, I'm like, okay, this is Thelma and Louise. It's a co-lead situation, but we don't do that anymore. No, we need to. Someone needs, this is the year for it. If we're ever going to have two Best Actress nominees from the same movie again, this is the year. I know, but I don't know. We'll see what happens, but it is remarkable. And what's interesting is that Marion Bailey's in it. She's also a phenomenal, who's Mike Lee's real life partner. and then her daughter, not Mike Lee's daughter, it's also in the movie, Alice Bailey Johnson, and she plays Cato Flynn's best friend.

25:08And I swear to God, I say this, they are the dramatic equivalent to Romeo and Michelle. I want to be, I want my best, I'm going to call my best friend and tell them to watch this movie and we have to be just like these two women. That kind of reminds me of the daughters in Hard Truths, like the young ones who are so fun to be around. I feel like it's a sequel to that. He knows how to make people friends. It's great. Yeah. Chris, are you as hyped for the Mike Lee possible redemption as we are? I am. I mean, I was like now that I've heard more about it. Yes, I am. I guess I was like, I don't know what I was expecting.

25:38I mean, obviously, Mike Lee's great, but I was like not nervous, but whatever. But now hearing from Clayton and obviously other people we know have seen it, that it seems like a home run. And then also is an awards contender. Boy, it feels like it should be right there. Obviously, Marianne Jean-Baptiste probably just missed Best Actress, right? Like that two years ago and was won like the triple crown of critics awards and like was a completely egregious snub but like you can't sleep on how much campaigning mike lee did a lot of campaigning really did he was really came out and like obviously now he's older and his health is maybe not as strong as it was and maybe it wasn't even then it's probably his last film but i'm like all of that feels to me like just groundwork that he laid whether knowingly or not for this so it's like we already know like he is i think he's obviously known quantity but in like on the campaign trail all this feels great and kato flynn yeah like what if what if she's just like kieran culkin where she wins an emmy and an oscar and that's it like that kind of thing i don't know kieran culkin playing like a co-lead it sounds like and kieran culkin did as well busy at the golden globes and so there you go yeah yeah but but it's great i think you know it's interesting we bring up hard truths like bleaker did that campaign but you know there's obviously a big difference between bleaker and like a netflix spend on an awards campaign and they really were like grassroots hard truths.

26:54They have hired strategists. They're like putting money behind this and I think like Martin McDonough versus Mike Lee might be the narrative in screenplay at minimum this season. I think it's going to be interesting to watch. Because Adapted is where there's so many heavyweights. Original is going to be a fun one to watch. And just as an overall, like you were saying earlier with Michael, how there's so many big blockbuster for movies for best picture like what if this is just going to get in for best picture too as like an another like an apple and an orange in a bag of apples or an apple bag and oranges whatever you want to say or it's like this small like kind of conversational movie uh versus like all these big movies with big hooks or big stars or whatever so i think this is like it seems like this should go really far if it's a tell you it's a tell your right and like all these i mean like oh yeah i was saying it was a tiff world premiere but you're like kind of like just roll right through that's also a great sign.

27:44So I don't know. Are you guys ready to just cry at Telluride? I feel like we keep talking about all these like heavy hitters. You know what's interesting about the last thing about Tenderloin for Care? I cried, but I didn't cry in the movie. I cried driving home because everything was sitting on my chest, like just sitting there. And then as I was driving, then it just started. And that's never happened to me before. I can't wait to hear your thoughts about it. Well, the press screening in Toronto is at 830 a.m. the first day of press screening. So that's how I'm kicking off my Toronto experience.

28:11I can't wait personally. And Chris, I think you'll still be on a plane. So I'll report back once you get there. But I'll have seen it at Telluride, assuming it's there. Oh, exactly. Which we know it is, but it's fine. Yes, you can report it back to me. So I think these are actual world premieres at TIFF, tell me if I'm wrong, because Bleeker has a talent for murder with Helen Mirren and Alden Ehrenreich, and then also The Liberation with Carrie Coon, which I think has an official January release date, but it's going to qualify in some way. They're just both interesting to think about in terms of the best actress race that we keep saying is wide open.

28:39Helen Mirren is playing Patricia Highsmith, and Carrie Coon is playing, I think a version of the director's grandmother who escaped from a concentration camp. But it's about after, I don't know a ton about the actual plot of this movie. I think she gets involved in a cult. I think that's what it is. I think she had escaped a concentration camp at some point. Yeah, she's a concentration camp that ends up in a cult. And Lily James is the head of the, is a cult leader, which I think just sounds so much fun. I feel like I would fall for that. I mean, Carrie Coon getting her best, inevitable best actress nomination feels like it has to happen at some point.

29:09So why not now? but we just have to see if those movies are any good as always also helen mirren hasn't been nominated since the last station in 2010 i just looked up so you think of her she's oscar royalty but she hasn't been in a while and almost two i think it was like pretty much we've seen her twice get every nomination throughout the precursors and i miss in the end oh for which ones uh trumbo and woman in love uh was like a run and then it was again during hitchcock you're really trumbo and Hitchcock is a lot to conjure from the 2010s. It's hard to be like Meryl Streep when you're the best and only thing about your movie that people are going to get behind.

29:46And it's hard to be that. So we'll see if talent for murder can be more than Meryl. It is hard to do that these days. The last thing Bleecker has that's interesting is Musk, the four hour Alex, give me Elon Musk documentary. Clayton is a fan of 90 minute movies. Where are you on Musk? I have not seen Musk. It's going to Venice. It's going to world premiere there. I've spoken to people that have seen it. Evidently, it's great. It's scathing. It is what you think it's going to be. Sure. But it is four hours long. I think that's... And one person that really loved the movie, their big criticism was like, it should have just been a miniseries.

30:25And there was actually a lot of chatter that was going to be broken into two movies. And Bleecker made the call to make it one movie. They said they would never be able to get people to come out to see part two. which I think fair. Yeah, I mean, that's a lot of time just have to spend thinking about Elon Musk, much less looking at him. Wait, sidebar, while we're talking about Venice, what do you make of the Venice lineup, Clayton, and how like fairly thin it feels? What's going on? You know, every year I kind of award of the big four, you know, Venice, Telluride, New York, Toronto, like who had the best lineup and, you know, whatever.

30:58And Venice has been, I think, pretty consistent top two at least the last like nine years. the fact that New York kicked their ass this year New York's got some good stuff this year my read is Telluride, New York, Toronto and Venice I think Venice just, it's hard to go to Venice man, it just really is because Jay Kelly is a great example Jay Kelly, if it didn't go to Venice and went to Telluride first, I think it gets more legs in the race once you get beat up in Venice and there's a red carpet. It's a whole different aura. It really can mess up your entire campaign. So a lot of people don't want to risk it.

31:41Frankenstein. This is one of the one I always bring up. You guys were mean to it in Telluride too. So we had to go to Toronto first. It was just too late at Telluride. It was at nine o 'clock on Sunday night, which is rough. But to that point, like if it didn't go to Venice at all, it would have been earlier in the festival at Telluride. It probably would have been like the first night and people would have been like, this is great. The first night instead was Ballad of a Small Player, which doesn't even exist. And like, you know, it was like, it just resets the whole festival structure. And I think like we've seen that.

32:08Obviously this year, like I know Inc. is going to be there for Netflix, but I think they picked it up after it was announced, right? So it's like, I wonder if they would have changed. I mean, that looks really cool and I'm excited for it. But using that as an example, I do think these studios are more reticent to do Venice maybe, especially after last year where we saw so many things kind of upend there. And the awards aspect of Venice also scares people because, you know, obviously, like, last year didn't matter at all. Benny Safdie won director for Smashing Machine and factored into the race zero, like, all season.

32:39But, like, you lose there or you win there, it can really just, like, lopside stuff, and it feels strange. What is Wild Horse 9 also going from Venice to Telluride? Going to Venice to Telluride, yeah. But, like, that movie, I feel like, can play at Venice, even if it's 9 p.m. on a Sunday night. Yeah, I think the crossovers that we know about that, like, obviously are reported out there, Inc Wild Horse 9 Primetime? Is it going to Telluride? No, Primetime's not. Bucking Faster is the only one that's going to every festival. That's right. And I think there's one more. And there's you at TBA on the calendar.

33:16Preview, we'll be getting a lot of dispatches from Chris from standing outside in line outside of a theater in Telluride. We'll be on YouTube. Come find us. Actually, I'll even tell you, because I have an interview with Julie Hunsinger that's going to run tomorrow. and I don't know what the movie is so this is something we can all discuss. There is going to be a true TBA on the Telluride that's not on the Telluride schedule that is a world premiere. And I've been trying to figure out what it is. Wow. I can't even, it wouldn't be something that's at New York as a world premiere. Well, I mean, could she steal something?

33:50Sure, but. That'd be a real dick move. I mean, they all steal from each other all the time. It's like whatever. it's not gonna be the game if I don't think like an already announced New York world premiere I don't think would do that although sometimes Telluride would be like a work in progress something like you could do like pretend it's not finished yet she doesn't do true to God secret screenings like that's a world premiere we get TV like after Sun came from Venice to Telluride she does that and there will be those but she says it's a world premiere there's some things I know it's not but I can't figure out what it's not Fincher and it's not social reckoning because that's what I really kind of what it was.

34:26Okay, we're getting close to the end. I do want to swing by Magnolia because they just have interesting stuff like Maddie's Secret, the John Early movie, I think could do interesting stuff critics wise, Indie Spirits, Gotham's, that kind of thing. I was a fan of Late Fame. I thought Willem Dafoe was excellent in that. And they also have I Want Your Sex, which is just going to be part of the Olivia Wilde year that we're going to have. And we're not talking about the invite. We already did that one. But I think it's worth keeping an eye on that. And when she comes back as part of the awards campaign, like Howard Cooper for Hoffman and Gregor Aki going to help Olivia Wilde in that campaign?

34:59Maybe that's the biggest for Olivia Wilde, man. Like, it came to this realization the other day, I think we're all underestimating the invite. I think the invite's going to blow up and make noise. I think that's very much right. And I think she's in play for director and actress and the picture, I think, as well. There's like five female directors this year that are going to be in play. So like, it's going to... And Penelope Cruz for that, I think, is like very much in play. I think she's like fantastic. I think that's the most likely of all her films. Yeah. I mean, she having now seen LaBelle Negra, she has like one fantastic scene and then she's like 11 minutes of screen time.

35:34She's in very little of it and she's in so much of the invite. And then Bunker, she's lead. Yeah. Oh, have you seen Bunker? That's a... I have not. We'll talk about it after. I'm intrigued by Bunker. Well, so we can wrap it up with Sumerian, which is the big newcomer because they picked up Josephine out of Sundance, which was, I think, kind of undeniably the most talked about movie, in addition to the invite, I guess. It's Channing Tatum, Gemma Chan, Mason Reeves. Mason Reeves. Look at me. It's coming to Toronto. They're doing a big push for it. We've never seen Sumerian do much of anything. So how do we feel about a full-on newcomer trying to do this?

36:13Sumerian is a music company that has started a distribution film arm. So it's going to be interesting. in the last year distribution places opening up I'm like wow distribution is on a rise that I wasn't told about. But then Black Bear and Roque are kind of like ooh it's been harder it's harder than it looks I guess. Josephine is like top five movies I've seen this year and in many ways I think it's a masterpiece in a lot of ways. I think it's for a movie that's so undeniably hard it's also pretty beautiful and even the the obviously the big talk is like the way it opens up it opens up with this horrific scene but the way it's filmed you're a little kid and i think there there's a way to access it that you know the the big the big thing that they have to do is get people to sit down and watch the movie yeah it's going it's always going to be hard to be like because it kicks off with a kid witnessing a really horrible sexual assault yeah and it is and and it is horrific it's a disturbing scene to nothing bad happens to the kid like it's not like but it's just a lot to sit down it's the loss of innocence and you see it and then it's the aftermath of parents yeah jemma chan my god like shatters my heart into pieces that movie channing's great i really hope it gets people consider it because i think once you watch it you're like okay that could be an interesting like fall festival thing too like not necessarily something you're going to come out of feeling good but like if you can sit with it and catch it in the right place like it can affect you because i think everything you said about that is right chris have you seen josephine i did see it okay sundance and i think like it's very much i think it would have to be considered to be in play right like i i know they're already screening it like i'm like i'm heartened by like so far because it felt like one like when you saw when it screened sundance premiere there it was like who's going to pick this up so marion picked it up i was like i never even heard of this play so i'm like that's a yeah it was way after it won yeah it was like way down the road this is like maybe a tough beat for this movie right but like i do think already they're showing that they're like it's screening a lot of places i think like you said it's going to be represented at these fall festivals to bring it back and it is a tough watch but i think it's got a great it's got a bunch of different hooks and especially with the young actress performance uh mason's great and like i know like obviously the oscars history with like young actors not the best.

38:36I'm not going to say she could get nominated, but I think she will be discussed a lot, and that's a great compelling... And you can't fraud her as supporting. She's a lead. No, she's de facto. Channing, I think it's been the big talk about where he's going to go. I think he should go supporting. He's in more of the movie than Gemma Chan is. Oh, for sure. And he's really wonderful. A likeness to it is also weird, obviously, because it's also a Sundance movie, but it's very Beast of the Southern Wild esque in that feel so um i i think i think it's i think it's i think it is great and i think i do i wish that like someone like focus had it like i think focus could have like they're busy man they got they got so much on their slate but everyone looked at it and and granted i think looked at it and said where's my box office for this movie and i think that is an honest to god yeah like you take a hit on this movie buying it yeah but you also are supporting like this one of the greatest We're just filmmakers that emerged in the last decade.

39:33Yep. Bete El Rujo is incredible. It's pretty exciting. Well, Clayton, so when Chris and I are doing our live streams from Telluride, will you just hop in and just like, you guys can chat outside and live? Chris and I have a tradition. We go always get pizza and burger and fries together. Katie, why don't you go? Do you just like, don't want to be around Chris that long? I mean, Chris is going and I got to go to TIFF right after. My husband's birthday is always around then. I don't know, man. I'll get to Telluride one of these days. I get Chris at Telluride and then I get Katie at Middleburg. Middleburg.

39:59I know. Oh, yeah. It's the Middlebury. It's the Telluride of the East. Are you kidding? I'll be there. We'll be in horse country. They are my top two favorite festivals for that exact reason. Weekend festivals, you can't beat them. I cannot wait to go back to Middlebury. Telluride of the East. Yeah. We'll be drinking in a horse barn somewhere and having a time. I can't wait for the barbecue. I know. So that will be delightful. This was delightful in the meantime. Clayton, thank you so much for coming to do this with us. I love hanging out with you guys. I love you guys very much. We're so excited to get back into the season together.

40:28So we'll see you in some far-flung locale before too long. Somewhere outside Mike Lee's final movie, Plane and Telluride. I'll take a picture of Chris crying. Yeah, we'll be out there crying somewhere. Everyone will know where to find us. And for those of you listening, stay tuned. We'll be back in a moment with Chris's conversation with Jake Johnson. Okay, Chris, I'm going to hand it over to you for today's interview segment. Because really, the minute you knew that Jake Johnson had a movie out, and it was past Emmy voting windows, so we had actual space. So I was like, OK, clearly Chris and Jake Johnson.

40:59This is like a bromance that goes way back, I think. It really does. I've interviewed him so many times. We talked about this, I think, before we recorded. But I think the first one was for Safety Not Guaranteed, which I really loved. Colin Trevorrow movie. And he's just great. Jake Johnson. You know who's great? Jake Johnson. He's very charming. He's charming on screen. And I was excited, not to be too much of a hack, but I was excited to talk to him because I do think like his performances in this movie, The Sun Never Sets, which is Joe Swanberg's first movie in years. I think he since win it all with Jake Johnson, maybe from 2017.

41:30But that and Maximum Pleasure Guarantee, which is an Apple show that kind of split the Emmy eligibility, but it's going to be eligible next year. These are great. He's like, it's a really different Jake Johnson performance. And he's kind of playing off of his charm in a way that he hasn't really done before because the characters are not super likable. And so I was like, oh, it was interesting to hear him talk about all of that. So that was when we got into a lot of that and a lot about like making independent film. I thought it was really fun. Yeah. So I'm excited for other people to hear it as well.

41:56I'm looking forward to hearing it. Let's hear Chris and his conversation with Jake Johnson.

42:04Anyway, I was so glad to talk to you because I was looking and we get to start here, but I was seeing maximum pleasure guaranteed in May and June to dink in July. Sun never sets now in August and September. I've been unofficially calling this Jake Johnson summer, but does it feel like that for you? I guess that was the first question. Well, honestly, it's the way it's lining up is a little bit much. But really, what happened for me was we had the pandemic and the strike. And then I had taken time where I directed a movie, Self Reliance, where I was I really produced it and wrote it. And so there was a long chunk of time where I wasn't saying yes to acting roles.

42:40I was more doing other stuff. And in that period, I realized how much I missed just acting. and the truth is if you're just acting and stuff i'm like yes i'm producing but i'm not day-to-day the way if you're really running a production so i'll work on something for such a short period of time and then when it comes out it seems like i've it seems like i'm the craziest workaholic in the world but i'm like guys i was on maximum pleasure guaranteed three days tops an episode i had multiple weeks off i just love to work so like i don't need two months off but i'm not working five days a week all day but it's coming out in a world where i'm feeling like it sounds like i have issues with addiction and i like just stop drinking and it's like so now i'm addicted to work but it is not the case you i mentioned that i was looking at your like you at your like imdb and stuff and like yeah you mentioned like kind of like not taking a lot of acting roles and like certainly like you could kind of see that i guess a little bit and i was wondering like did it give you a different perspective on acting and your performance at all i guess yeah i was trying to figure out what i loved it um i constantly try to figure out what i like about things rather than just being in it and the acting was such a childhood dream but then I realized I don't like just showing up and being told what to do.

44:11Like certain actors are really like clay and they really want to be molded by the director. Once I got into the game, I realized how little I liked that idea. And then I wanted more and more control. And then I got control. And when I had it, I realized how much I missed a director and how much I missed having a writer on set just to bounce ideas off and be directed. And so like, say, um, so like the sun never sets is a great example. Cause Joe and I have done three movies in the past and in those, we create this world together. He directs it, but I'm not really being directed in my performance as much in sun never sets.

44:52We did it so differently where I don't relate to the Jack character at all. I don't see myself in that world at all I would go to Joe And we would have conversations And after each take I would be like I'm trusting your instincts Not mine I'm just actually trying to act in it And I did the same in Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed And dink I was deciding to lean into Josh Greenbaum's tone more than mine At times And I was like It's embarrassing at my age But I was like Oh this is kind of acting well I mean as a fan well one of the things I think I love about you is like you know like the thing I love about you as a performer is like you're so I want to say like authentic or it seems effortless right like when you're watching it as for me at least where I'm like oh you embody these characters and like it just feels like a guy you would know and the thing I really loved about Sun Never Sets and Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed as well is it felt like there is like a weaponization of like the charm that you have and playing these guys who you're not really sure where they're coming from.

45:53I was thinking about it, like, in terms of like, swingers, where it's like, you want to be the guy, you're the PG-13 guy, and you want to be the guy in the rated R movie, we're not sure where this guy's coming from. And I was like, but I like really enjoyed seeing you do that in these, in both of those projects. And I guess like, yeah, like, getting, I was, which one went first? Was Maximum Pleasure first, and then Sun Never Sets? Or like, how did you kind of like, how did that work? I think Sun Never Set went first, I believe. the math in my head's getting a little screwy but yes I think we did Alaska uh before okay but really I think kind of what's happening with me on it a little bit is um you know and you know this where we're both living kind of the dream we wanted to live and when you want to do something it's so hard to get in it and once you get in it a little bit my real instinct was just make sure it works.

46:44And I always would think less as an actor and more for the project. So rather than me going, I'm so excited, like a guy like a Nicolas Cage, for example, he's just thinking about his character and he's so good at it. But sometimes you'll be like, that was wild for the rest of the thing. And you go like, I love that you did that. That's the opposite of how I've always viewed it. I'm always viewing it as the team first. And what does this offense need? Because I just want to make sure the thing works so that we get to make more of the thing. And I think in the little break I took, I realized there's a whole part of the art of just acting that I haven't given enough credit to.

47:27And so I've been deciding to give that work. So maximum pleasure guaranteed was all about like the joy of acting opposite Tatiana and Jesse Hodges. and worrying less about it's not my job to make the whole thing work it's just my job to play carl here and being like ah that's what other actors are doing and being like but that's really joyful to not be thinking about production not be thinking about the writing not be thinking about how they're shooting it not talking to the ad about the fucking schedule but to be in a quarter just thinking about the scene and just thinking about my character's intention it was like so it's so like self-insolved is the wrong word but like you're so singularly focused and when i did a movie called ride the eagle with uh jk simmons we were doing a scene together and i was also producing and the sprinklers went off at the place we were renting and me and the director trent and joe hardesty our producer were out dealing with it and talking to the owner and then we came back and he said like you're focusing on so many different things man he's like let them do that we just do the scene and i really didn't get what he was saying i was like well we're filmmakers we're making the film i financed this movie i brought the fucking food man it's in the back of my truck the the drinks the sodas are literally in the back of my car oh and so that has been a big the reason there's a lot of jobs right now is i'm not doing that i'm just showing up and acting in projects did it so they're coming out easier i mean it's great i think you could see that in these performances and the thing too like you said like i think that's a totally different vibe as well and i really yeah like i really enjoyed that too but sun never sets obviously like you said you work with joe so much and like kind of like those earlier movies like drinking buddies and win it all i guess was the last one before yes right and i think you did some easy with him too right am i right about that yeah yeah of course so i guess like going back and then i guess going back with all this perspective in terms like i guess did that change like how did that change for you and how did that change the vibe between you guys in terms of like because like it felt like when at all you you were like kind of like very connected right In terms of what you're talking about.

49:49When it all was very much, Joe was running his and I was running mine. And we were a team and we trust each other. Working with Joe is one of my favorite things, being on planet Earth. I love him. I find him so talented. He runs the best sets. But I think what happened is he took a long break from directing films. He was more producing. And so when we came back on this one, we just both had naturally changed. It was almost like dating somebody for a long time, breaking up, and then you get back together. And you're like, we're just different. And so there was like, for example, the scene where Dakota and I are fighting in that parking lot after the art show.

50:35Well, the way Joe, I mean, everything's blocked out. And Joe and I had like outlined this whole story. And we both know that scene has to, it's a fight. that leads to them kissing, that leads to them sleeping together. So in the first rehearsal of it, there is a natural tone of which Dakota and I played it. And that is, we're trying to charm the other. We're trying to be very kind and sensitive to the other one. Remind the other one that if we were really these people, we like each other. You're safe. Let's go home and have sex. Joe said, that's just not the way it is. And he wanted me to be fighting and yelling at her.

51:15And I was like, Joe, this is crazy behavior. And in the past, I would have creatively fought with him to prove that my tone is right. And he would have pushed his and we would have met somewhere in the middle and both been happy. But I thought my job was I need to protect the tone. and if we go your way and it doesn't work the movie fucking breaks but i've realized like then don't take the movie if you don't trust the person because it's his movie and i'm just so when he said do it rather than fight it i just like took a deep breath and i was like okay man then tell me if it's working for you because it's not emotionally working for me But then when I saw it, it was, it's just not the way I would ever have done it if I were directed.

52:11And that, and it's really basic to most actors and it really shows how part of my brain is dead. But these are huge realizations for me where I'm like, oh, I'm not. Cause I came up writing and producing and doing all the plays. So acting was always just a part of the whole machine. is so i'm like oh some people are just chefs they don't know the books of the restaurant i mean like do you think then i i i mean i guess i would like leading the witness a little bit i'm like do you think you're like getting like do you think your performances in these roles are better i guess than maybe you had like or more like do you feel like that it's something like you're getting deeper in these characters or something i wouldn't i wouldn't say better i would say and this is the wrong way of putting it um because i don't have the right vocabulary for it but it's more it's more acty it's more like acting so i would say the parts i've done in the past i believe they're strong performances they're great but but i'm thinking more in terms of what does the thing need rather than what would this character do in this moment And so there are times I'll go like, well, rather than do this bold move that might not fully work or the editor is going to have a really hard time.

53:34Like I did a movie with Sam Rockwell years ago with Joe Swanberg called, I can't remember right now. Digging for Fire was it? Digging for Fire. Yes. Thank you. And we were shooting a scene and it was a fight and we were inside a rented house and it was getting tense and tense. And I was thinking in my head as it was getting tense and I felt all the emotions. So I can always feel it, but there's always a voice in my head. That's also thinking about when we're going to be sitting in post-production together. So I know where the cameras are and I know I'm like, I'm in it with Sam, but I'm also thinking in my head, like what's the out?

54:11And if Sam took an, a glass ashtray and threw it against the wall. And what I thought was, hey, homeboy, this is a friend's house. If we damage that wall, that's going to cost us as the production. And that's where my head went. And at the time, I thought like, all right, so what we need to do is make sure there's nothing in here for the actors that could damage. And now I'm thinking more, oh, Sam was just in the moment. and i'm like i've been thinking like a producer the director's partner rather than just that's your guys's job and so it's not better but it is fundamentally different so if i'm doing a performance and it's not great for camera rather than being like i need to help you i'm not even thinking about that i mean i think that comes through i just think that's like really great You would talk about like Dakota-ing this, I guess.

55:13I was going to say like you've done so many movies with Joe and like what's it like bringing someone new into that fold? But it does sound like also like it was maybe new for you in terms of like the way we're working together. So like that maybe helps you guys. You're coming in maybe on equal footing, I guess. I don't know. Like what was that like? Joe and I have a real shorthand and a real love story between each other. And it's – so having people come in is really – when it works, like it works with Dakota and Corey. It's really joyful for Joe and I, because we also do so many jokes and there's such a rhythm.

55:47And it's also the same crew for the most part that it's been for 15 years. So the DP used to be the camera operator. It's the same sound department. There's so many familiar faces. So we've all been doing certain jokes forever. And one of the jokes is I play a character named Garrett, who's, you know, basically Steven Seagal. And Garrett doesn't realize that Joe's movies are like small Chicago indies. Who cares? Because Garrett thinks he's the biggest star in the world. And everybody needs to kiss Garrett's ass because I'm in the movie, it's going to sell big internationally. So there's just a rhythm of bits that we all get into so that literally the DP will start and be like, Hey, Garrett, do you mind standing on that Apple box so that you're not so short?

56:41because we need to make you look like a big star and you start the day with that so when someone like dakota comes in and is instantly in the rhythm in the game and then great on camera it feels like oh perfect and i think her performance in this is so extraordinary and we felt it there where in joe's movies uh cory and i did an interview yesterday where i was talking about what I love about them and that is your performance can't get saved in post-production and a lot of actors and I'm not judging good or bad it's everything that I've realized since 2020 we all have different opinions about obvious stuff so that's why I find like awards and good and bad so insane um but you can see when someone gets saved in post and you go like a lot of crazy cats for that big emotional line they were on their back then you go like wait that one person that was a two shot then whenever that other person's seen there's like 19 edits it's like a michael bay movie all of a sudden all of a sudden it's like i want you to know i'm in love with you you're like okay they didn't nail it and in joe's movie going in you cannot be saved there is not the coverage for it so you need to be able to do a four to five minute scene that starts somewhere has an emotional arc has some comedy has a peak and then fades and what i loved about it with when you watch somebody like dakota and cory right away you know as doing this with joe like oh we got a movie because they're not only able to do it but they're fucking great and so for me that's such like a great part of it that's awesome yeah i love cory too he's so good i love so talented he's so good i loved him in saturday night and the uh jesse armstrong movie the mountainhead i think it was called yes he's so good in that too he's about to have a big moment i think he's got a couple projects coming out nice do you have like you mentioned like before like this character not like somebody you necessarily like i don't know i'm not putting not to put words in my mouth not somebody you'd vibe with maybe or like you know like it's a character like you know like and i guess like and i'm i'm gonna assume maybe maximum pleasure guarantee too in there where it's like guys kind of a jerk right in certain ways do you like i mean is that kind of cool to play act like is that like i guess you're not like actors not supposed to judge their characters but is it cool to play a character you're just like man i don't get this guy but i'll like figure out how to do it and like kind of like try to get in that headspace honestly it is and it's the opposite it's not what i was doing for a long time my big thing was that i need to i need to understand who this person is and enough that i would want to play him and now i'm realizing the me part of it is the wrong approach so i don't really like carl uh from maximum pleasure guaranteed um i don't like jack from alaska um i think he's fine but like what he values and what he thinks and what he's trying to do that's just not what i find that interesting now in watching the movie i love him from wendy dakota's character's point of view that's a simple shift that i think most people knew but i didn't see it that way i saw it more like a i saw all the characters you play rather than each piece mattering like they're all part of like a jd salinger novel right and you know like those characters would like jump from short story to book you're like i thought the through line of it all really mattered and that was the game it wasn't per individual project it was when all was said and done you've got a novel and all these chapters and now i'm like now i'm just naturally seeing it differently.

1:00:32I mean, I think it's cool. The project's certainly maximum pleasure guaranteed. I think, like, Sun Never Sets, he's a little... He's definitely a dumb ass in time. I was literally watching it, like, what is this guy doing? But that's based off Joe's real life. It is. Like, Jack is not Joe, but this arc, this emotional arc started because Joe was telling me what was happening in his life and he was the Jack. Crazy. And when he told me, it was like all based in Chicago and it's been, it's so different. Yeah. Yeah. But the seed, when he told me, he was like, I had, I was so in charge of the relationship.

1:01:09And then she started dating the one guy and he's like, I was the biggest goober in the world. And I'm like, that is so funny. The scenes where you're just like, I made a, you literally like, I made a, you just say basically. And I was just like, it's so funny. You're just like, just your face, the way your face is exploding. Like it feels like, you know, like you're just, it's like really, really funny. That was the scene when he pitched me the first idea that I was like, to me, that's why it's worth doing for Jack. This whole, like, you want wine? Oh, can you please not be here? And then it's like, I'm dating my ex-boyfriend.

1:01:43And it's, excuse me? It's a crazy premise. It's so good. But also, I think these projects get a lot of mileage out of, like you were saying there, too, about, like, the past characters where you're just like, I think as an audience, you're like, I've seen Jake in, like, New Girl. or whatever shows, right? Like all the things you've done that are really great. And then you're just like, oh, and I really like that guy. And then like watching you like in these, you're just like, I don't really like this. And it's like kind of, you're coming in, you're kind of unbalancing the audience, I think, which is really fun.

1:02:12Well, I think I, you know, and I've just realized that partly after this pandemic thing, that break was, I was like, oh, generations have changed. I'm now a veteran who's been in it. People who are in the game great, grew up watching me. and i was like oh audiences come with an expectation so i'm like oh so now we can play with it now like what a fun serial killer i would be it'd be great it's so good i'm like oh right it's like because now the audience is at ease so i'm like oh so now if i because i'm realizing my i don't have the passion i thought i did and that is of writing my own show and doing into eastbound and down like i love danny mcbride's path and that was always the dream and then i've just gotten a little bit too old i'm tired and i'm like i don't want to show run which is embarrassing to admit it's such a hard job and i don't have an infrastructure of partners where well we'll just run it i'm like i don't have that built and i don't have that thing but what I would love to do is if somebody else has a bill to come in and play this character.

1:03:27But, and I'm like, but now the audience could come in expecting one thing. And I'm like, we could try whatever we want. And that feels very exciting in a way that I didn't think I'd be excited about that. Do you have, I got a random thing about the movie. And I was like, when you're coaching basketball, you have like the glasses, you have like the old, like fifties look. I thought of like Tom Hanks. I was like Tom Hanks and catch you if you can, for some reason, but I was like, was there any, Like, was it just like an old Hoosier look? So Gene Hackman for me, he's always the North Star. There's nothing in my performances that ever connect to him, unfortunately.

1:04:05But I love him. I wish I had more of him in me on screen of like just the way this is a type of man he is on screen. And the command he has and the vulnerability and intensity. and so Hoosiers was I was like I want to go that old school look I want those it was like it's a good it was like that feeling and then the game it became the my character's son in it the little boy who was such a sweet guy I pitched a joke can he dress exactly like me and follow me around and say all the same stuff it's good you mentioned Gene the thing with Gene Hackman not to going to total tangent but i'm like he oh he looked he looked 55 years old whether he was 30 always and you still look you know like not 55 so it's tough to play gene hackman when you're not gene hackman's 55 for like 40 years it was like oh there's gene hackman that's a very good point he is a young man people are like you're an old grizzled son of a bitch and he's like i'm 28 uh i know i know you're coming up the other one i know coming so i guess this fall then you have sunset pi right like there's another show coming and i guess like i was looking at i was looking at that one i saw inspirations of moonlighting in the pit i saw it thrown around which i'm like that sounds great already i'm like totally in but i guess like what appealed to you about doing that kind of network show especially now in like terms of like you know like being a working actor in la i guess too like how much does it matter i'm sure that shooting in la right is that the idea for that so like how much does that matter i guess i mean tons i mean i just i I'm not going to do a series elsewhere.

1:05:41Right. I love shooting in LA, not just because my family's here. It's also the best crew. It's also this is where it's meant to be. And so, but apart from the LA of it, which is a huge part, and also I want to shoot at Universal. I grew up watching NBC. Yeah. I always dreamed of being on NBC. What came on this one was, Dan Gore and I have been flirting for a long time. so i loved what he did with brooklyn 99 uh samberg's a buddy i'd heard how talented dan is how how strongly he runs a show how hard he pushes the writing so that the scripts are great how he is a guy who does not quit and i've always also wanted to play a pi colombo for me peter fall is gene hackman to me so good i love peter fall like don't like him love him woman under the influence, his performance in that.

1:06:43I just wish I did it. It's not even that I like it. I'm just mad. I didn't do it. And so the way he's Columbo, I was like, well, that's what I want to play. I want to be, the big thing for me is my character, Mickey, he's a good detective. I don't want to play a bad detective. I don't want to play a sloppy. He doesn't care. and i don't want to play he doesn't care but he's a genius right so rolls out of bed doesn't do any work and then goes like before i go xyz and the audience goes like shut up i want to play the way i took colombo as and that is he's the hardest working detective and my pitch to dan and luke was almost the way like pete rose played baseball what if that's how mickey's a detective we're like he's just going to not stop, but he can make a lot of mistakes.

1:07:40Like he's a wreck as a human, but as a detective, he's not going to stop until he solves the case. And that felt really exciting. Well, let me ask you this. I had a question about, you mentioned awards before, obviously, this is a prestige junkie podcast. So we care about awards here. Like, do you ever think about that? And now maybe as you've been kind of like shifting your perspective on acting, is that something you're like not chasing but like maybe considering more seriously i guess because like you've had shows like i mean minx i thought was great too and like you could have got like contention for that too maybe but like obviously like i don't know what is your perspective on that um i don't give it a lot of thought to be honest okay um i think it's a hell of an honor i think it would be really nice to get i don't see myself campaigning um but i don't know um i it's um i don't watch the award shows and i never have so and i didn't some people grew up and they all watch the academy awards as a family and i'll see people now like even like people i wouldn't expect who are like you going to an oscar party i've never done that that like there's i found out lamorne won the emmy i forgot the emmys were that night and i saw on my phone a bunch of texts and it was the new girl text group everyone's congratulating and i literally was like fucking yeah lamorne but you know like any other vanity thing if i got it i'd be thrilled sure of course put up a little shelf behind you or something yes and then my speech would be roasting lamorne um but it's i i what i really feel is i feel like la makes picks and la picks who their emmy and their award winners are who their cool actor are who their uh commercial actors are and I don't think it's real.

1:09:48I just think like, I'll see certain people who I don't think are very good. They're fine. Like, but in terms of like getting in the mud as an actor and doing scene work, I was like, I think they're very good at PR. I just don't think that's a big part of it. Right. And I'm like, but they're great at it and they pay the money and they have the right push and the, and they do the type of projects that the people who care about a certain thing in LA they're playing the game wonderfully but I don't think that means the work is great it's not like sports like you're playing and there's a winner and a loser so I'm like if there was an actual thing then I would really care about it but I'm like it you know for me 2020 changed a lot because what I saw in like I really thought we as a people saw like I used to think there was a good and a bad right and when i would watch a movie i'd be like that's good and then i'll watch something that i'll go oh that's a miss and i won't think about it again and then it'll be like nominated for nine emmys and i'm like i'm not even being mean and i'll never mention it because i'm not a hater everybody tries their hardest myself included but i'm like that's not good i'll watch a movie i'm like a streamer that i'll have never heard of i'll be with my kids i'm like jesus christ that's dog shit and then i'll look and i'll be like 93 on rotten tomatoes so it's either my taste is so different than that circle and so that's what i really think what i'm really happy is when people i love like a lamorne or people in my circle a few years back jason ritter got one anytime there's somebody who i know personally who i love i'm so thrilled for them because it is an honor but it's not something i can think about while i'm doing the work because i don't know who the judges are right and it's not like you said it's not like sports where there's this like you could like have subject it's like very subjective it's not like you say x like this happened like you're gonna win like i won this game because i beat this team or whatever right even if the people didn't even if the league didn't want us to win our team won then that trophy really would matter right but like you know max winkler for example the direct he's just did you know edgin and the he's doing all the ryan murphy stuff the fact that he didn't get nominated for any of that stuff when you look at how beautifully that was shot i was like oh there's just pics and like i get cool that's fine you mentioned you i wanted to before we wrap up you mentioned you so you worked with the tatiana fantastic actress obviously so good on the show Thinkably good.

1:12:29So good. And you guys together are just like exploding off the screen. I feel like in like this great way. And obviously Dakota, you have Mary Steenberg and I couldn't resist. I thought like the man, like just so good. And the stuff you guys do in the dink, I just absolutely loved. And I loved that relationship and I loved your performance with her and like the way you kind of played off each other. And I guess like, what was that experience like in terms of like getting to work with her? Who's obviously a legend. It was a dream. Yeah. Okay. It was a dream. I mean, I've been, you know, parenthood meant a ton to me growing up.

1:12:57um my my dad was a little bit like uh uh uh Joaquin Phoenix's dad with like the Dennis scene so I remember watching that and being like like I get it man and so seeing the her and that with Steve Martin those scenes then Step Brothers was for me like one of the all-time greats and so you have her in Elf she's just in all these movies where she's so strong um Last Man on earth I loved um and so then everything that happens with Mary and everything you've heard about her is backed up she's such a pro she is so good in between action and cut and she is so kind and fun to be around that you're like oh you just make the whole day better and some people are like there's this new thing that people say all the time now like no assholes allowed on set which is you know a really cute new term but what gets left is is i'm okay if someone's a bit of an asshole if they're good for example i would have gene hackman on my set sure i heard he could be an asshole seems like it i've heard stories certainly guess what assholes allowed on set if it's gene hackman now mary steenburgen is the perfect other because she's so great but then when you call action she's also so great so yeah loved that loved that whole experience loved the writing of the dink loved how it was like we tried to make a movie that almost felt like yacht rock it was just like an easy listening fun movie i thought everybody was funny aaron chen i thought was incredible i never i've not really seen him before absolutely incredible and the bi-play between you guys was so good.

1:14:45It was unbelievable. Yeah, really good. But I really, for me, you know, with Sunset, the Sun Never Set's coming out. Yeah. I really, I truly love it. And I really love movies like this. And I feel like when I'm seeing indies these days, I was just on YouTube the other day and I just got in a run of like watching different trailers and they're feeling all kind of similar like they all have the same look they the first 40 seconds the trailers all feel the same again and i'm like and i don't know if that's you know obviously you've got these huge studios and these big corporations paying for a lot of this shit now and movies became amusement parks and the big goal became like the same way like the movies became if it's not this huge franchise and blah blah and you go like all right so those are those movies and let those be over here but then indies i feel like they're also all becoming a thing so what i love about joe's movies is he's so distinctly him and his movies just feel like his movies and nobody else's and i'm like oh you're watching a joe swanberg movie the other thing too is that like a to what your to your point there like a it looks great like it looks great because it's obviously shot on film you know what i mean like it looks like in alaska like it looks really great like in a lot of movies now i think do not look great like they do not look like movies and they don't look like movies i always say i'm like this doesn't look like a movie but this does and then in terms of like to the indie aspect of it i think we've seen like a lot and you don't have to agree with this or not but from my perspective is like i think a lot of indie stuff now is not really in you know what i mean it's like i totally agree it's like Back to indie roots in my mind, especially watching, you could tell.

1:16:32Could not agree more. Indies now are, they just mean no one's getting paid. But I mean it. But it's a huge package. Going back to awards, it's a big package product for actors who are in big studio franchises to come play a super intense character that is rough around the edges and it looks really 70s and it's really gritty. and it's fast paced and dark and the editing is really cutty and choppy and the music's really hip and they get to put on a performance of playing like a super dark crazy intense psychologically fucked up character but i'm like but the machine is behind it so therefore the part of indie that i always loved was that it was like fundamentally punk rock right and i was like that's what it feels like and that to me is going away where i'm like oh that's just changing like we made this movie myself my brother and this other woman financed it and joe swanberg is producing it truthfully doing all of it like we're having financial issues because things didn't get paid so it's joe emailing me being like 2500 bucks and being like how many more man you're how much can you take yeah but it's it's just making a little indie right and i'm like but in the 90s that i used to i remember when i watched like trees lounge i went to like a theater in the north side of chicago and being like i didn't know movies could feel like this when i watched like slackers i was like this is weird and so i love that joe's movies are still There's no studio.

1:18:20Right. No. It's a crew of 20 people in the middle of Alaska. Like when we shot that stuff in the restaurant. Yeah. We did not rent the restaurant. Christopher, it was open. You could hear him doing orders in the background. We're just literally, I would be walking up to do a scene and somebody, I'd be in the background. Somebody's like, what's up, Nick Miller? I'd be like, not right now, please. that's actually crazy though literally on camera my king but you it's like but you're just you're in it you're making a movie it's like it's going fast it's trying it's if if it rains today we're literally fucked we don't have a great backup plan and i'm like that's what i like about an indie like this and an ifc came on board and wants to put it in theaters and i'm like well this is exciting and the movie's good so i feel like yeah this so but here's the thing in terms of awards joe will never be nominated for anything for some reason probably not but that idea is so insane why wouldn't joe swanberg has not been nominated for an indie spirit award therefore why would i ever watch the there'll be some new filmmaker who comes in who's like oh they're using this because they want him or her to direct this next big franchise so they need them to win the indie so that they can pay them nothing to go direct superman versus batman right it's hard like it is yes there is so therefore why would i care if our thing isn't nominated to go in that tent yeah we i don't have an army behind me saying here's our big strategy my strategy is i really like to make this stuff and I want to keep making it.

1:20:16Well, as a fan, I'm watching it. I like watching it, too. So this is great. Jake Johnson. Sun Never Set, you can see in theater, like you said, in theaters now from IFC. Maximum Pleasure Guaranteed, please watch on Apple. And the dink on Apple. You're just Mr. Apple here, too, which is great. That became an Apple year. It did. It did. But this is great, Jake. Thank you for doing this. Christopher, great speaking with you, man. That does it for today's show. We'll be back next week with a dispatch from the busy weekend of Tile Right in Venice. Chris, you're still here. I'm so excited for you to tell me everything about Telluride.

1:20:45Can't wait. And we'll be doing, for those of you following us on YouTube, we'll have some special dispatches coming over the weekend that'll just be on the YouTube page. So please make sure you subscribe to us there so you can catch those. We'll recap everything on the podcast after that. In the meantime, this podcast is edited by Brett Fox and produced by Brett Fox and me. Our theme music is by Dave Gonzalez. Thanks so much to our guest host today, Clayton Davis. Subscribe to the Prestige Junkie newsletter at theankler.com. Subscribe to us on Apple or Spotify, anywhere else you get your podcasts.

1:21:14And again, find us on YouTube. You can watch episodes of this podcast and subscribe for special bonus after-party dispatches from the Telluride Film Festival. In the meantime, we'll see you next week.