Lisa Kudrow on Beating the AI Clock to Bring Back The Comeback

0:00Look, you can have the best script, the best actors, the best filmmakers working on something, and then something happens in the world and an audience doesn't want to see that story. Hmm. You know, so you never know. Hi, everyone. I'm Katie Rich. Welcome to a special bonus edition of the Prestige Junkie podcast. Today, I am so very excited to share with you my conversation with Lisa Kudrow, who returned for a third and what she says is a final time to play Valerie Cherish on the HBO series The Comeback. Lisa created the series alongside Michael Patrick King. They've been friends for a long time.

0:40And what they have both told me is that they basically would catch up for lunch over the years and realize that Valerie still had more stories to tell. The Comeback came back to HBO this year in time for Valerie to tackle things like AI and the constant fear that Hollywood is absolutely over. It's also still really, really funny, as you'd expect from Lisa Kudrow. So I was excited to talk to her about how the tone of the comeback comes together, how she and Michael Patrick King figure out together what is right for Valerie to do, how far they can push the cringe without going too far, and maybe a little bit of admitting that they might talk about what Valerie could be up to in the coming years, even if we may never actually get to see what it is that they're talking about.

1:19It was very fun, obviously, to talk to Lisa Kudrow, hear all of that and much more in this special bonus episode conversation with Lisa Kudrow about the comeback. I also talked to Michael Patrick King a couple months ago, and he told me the story of the lunch you guys had and all the many lunches, I guess, where he'd kind of talked about Valerie and what she could do. And he said, and I think you've said in interviews as well, that once you had the idea for AI, you had to sprint because the fear was that history and the technology would get past you before you could get there. That's the fear the entire until it aired.

1:55Yeah. Well, I'm curious about what that sprint looks like. Obviously, you know this character, you've worked together, but what did you have to do differently that you might not have if you hadn't had, you know, this worry that AI would surpass you? Some research because it's not something that we knew a ton about. So, yeah, we had to talk to some people who work in AI and are in the entertainment industry and know about AI, you know, where it is, where it might be going. So, yeah. And then, yeah, we just took some guesses, you know? Yeah. And then the writing fast part of it, it sounds like maybe that's just what you would do anyway, that you can, you know, get these stories out there.

2:40But, and yet, ironically, Michael and I wrote every episode this time. And so it, I don't know how fast that went, to be honest, you know? So I guess, no, within a year, we had written and shot all of it. That is really fast. That is really fast. Yeah. Never mind. You have the skills right there. Well, I think you'd said that when you were doing this AI research, some people were like, you got to try it. You got to see what it's really like. And you were both pretty certain that just like you really didn't. It sounds like there's no regrets on that. There are no regrets on that. I think one session we were both, we couldn't be in the same room and it was a Zoom session and either accidentally or intentionally hit the like Zoom AI.

3:33Oh, yeah. Or a summarizer. And then, you know, it was really useless. Like, we're both being various characters. We knew what was coming from Michael's computer and attributing, you know, a back line to Michael said that she didn't need to see that. Or, you know, like something ridiculous. And Lisa said, and it's a Mark thing, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you turn into like six people. Yeah. And so it couldn't, you know, it didn't know that we were acting, but it did make it useless. Yeah. Well, it has become such a major part of life, I think, even since the show started airing, is you accidentally click a button and suddenly it's all on top of you.

4:16It's impossible to avoid. Yeah. I mean, we were getting, I mean, I think a smart thing was really limiting it to writing. that what would happen if, you know, a mediocre sitcom, it was decided, would be written by AI. One of the other things I asked Michael when I talked to him is, the reaction that you guys have gotten from this show being done, from this trilogy being complete, as you've been calling it, especially since, you know, the first season airs and you're thinking, oh, we're really proud of this, and then it gets canceled and it comes back. It's been such a roller coaster. So did this one feel different in that way in that it landed the way you wanted it to were landed differently?

4:57Or how did that feel having that conclusive feeling to it? Oh, I felt a great, well, there's always a huge weight. Well, always. The last time, 10 years later, we felt the weight. God, the people who like this really like this, we better deliver. And then with this one, yeah, same thing. And plus, we were so happy with the second one in that final episode was a big deal. Yeah. And said so much and just seemed like a fantastic ending, like beautiful ending. Yeah, that it was this time we were a little nervous. You feel a little pressure. But I think early on, we knew that the end of this was going to be sort of a different reveal about Valerie Cherish in that, yeah, yeah, I saw everyone being mean to me, but what am I going to do with that?

5:58That doesn't help. So, you know, you have to agree to be humiliated. And, you know, she never did. And that seemed like that's, you know, one of the good ways. Yeah. Well, knowing that you had this, like, perfect conclusion to it, I wonder if it's some of these lunches you guys would have that you would say, we can't do Valerie again. Let's do something else. Like, you are so perfectly suited to this, but I wonder if it felt impossible. No, it didn't feel impossible. I think because we trusted the last time that it just, it'll come if we relax and we don't panic over, wait, it's been a week. We haven't, you know, fixed that thing.

6:42And then we just say, well, maybe because we can't fix it and we need to let it go. Oh, interesting. There's a, I know. I mean, the good thing is that there's a process that we really trust with each other. It's a general writing question, but, you know, for this one in particular, knowing you were wrapping it up, like, what was hard to get to? What was the thing you knew needed to happen, but you couldn't figure out how to get there or had to, you know, hack through that? Yeah. It was the balance of how much of this is the AI story and how much of this is the Valerie story and this time we want mark represented with something and and um and jane yeah is gonna go from a to b and the end pulled her in really well really nicely too yeah it's jane's revelation Mm-hmm.

7:42And also Jane getting sucked into this thing she hates. The award she got, she uses it as a doorstop. Yeah. You know, the first opportunity to do something interesting. And also that, like, entertainment isn't enough for her. She's got to be saying something and doing something. It's got her, you know, like this guilt about wanting to be in the entertainment business, you know. I don't know. we love all that stuff. So it's fun. And we don't have a requirement that everybody get absolutely everything. Yeah. Yeah, you don't, I mean, the show is Valerie and whoever is going to be part of Valerie's story kind of can come and go in there.

8:25But it sounds like you really willingly said, you know, if we're going to do this one more time, we want to check in on as many people as we can. Like there's an ensemble world of this that felt like it was important to have. Right. We've seen them, you know. Yeah. And then also Mickey getting the recognition. Yeah. You know, that Robert Michael Morris was due. So, yeah. When you get to that ending you're talking about with Jane, it's such a lovely place to land Valerie. Like, you've extricated her from this mess of AI, without solving the AI thing. Like, it seems to have only gotten worse in the world that you guys are imagining.

8:59But how happy, how did you figure out that that was her happy ending and that you wanted it to be a pretty happy ending for this character? Well, you know, early on it came to us and we were talking about Valerie and then I remembered the first season, people would come after the first season, people, you know, actors and other people would say, how did that must have been so hard to do to inhabit just so painful. And I would just go blink, blink, painful. Uh-oh, I don't know what you're talking about. Because nothing to her was, if it was painful, it was like as long as an injection, you know, like it didn't last long.

9:41Then she redefined it, reframed it, you know, or ignored it completely. so we were talking about that and then it just sort of came to us oh because she rejects humiliation I mean she'll spot it coming or someone's intention but she knows that it's not practical she's ultimately really practical so even if it's a misguided attempt to troubleshoot something and then she makes it worse or, you know. And so I don't know. It just seemed like, oh, that's what this ending is. This is she is good at adapting. Yeah. And when you feel like you're about to hit an extinction event, if you're good at adapting, you might survive it.

10:38Yeah. Well, that's what I liked about her being kind of a good boss on this set that's, you know, plagued by having no writers and all this messiness and the cast bonding you see there. And this is another thing that Michael said when I talked to him is that it's giving Valerie everything she wants and all the spotlights she can possibly have and seeing how that goes. And there's awkwardness to it, of course. But I love seeing her thrive in that way without not being Valerie anymore. But that's a tough balance to strike, I'm sure. Yeah. She I mean, she was still Valerie. You know, she still worries about the same things.

11:08And, you know, but but she's, you know, she's 60 now. so she has learned some things she does have experience and she knows who she needs to defer to right they're showrunners so she's not going to try to tell them what to do it doesn't she's gotten slapped for that before she was sort of suggest just suggesting like that joke free and barbecue i don't know not a good you know and uh and that was a different issue like those guys don't want you telling them so maybe someone else could but not you and but now it's past all that i mean it's past her you know being hated because she's not sexually uh you know um attractive option or you know or available or you know I don't know um yeah well you're saying that you said she's 60 now and not not to assume your opinions reflect Valerie's but I just wonder if that comes from any kind of personal places saying you get to a certain point of age and there are things that you learn and take with you kind of regardless yes you do yeah but you know one of her problems when she was in her 40s and even and 20 years ago right around that time, it was like, ooh, 40, then what does an actress do?

12:36She's too old. She's aged out of being like sexually interesting or a female love lead, you know? And that's what I meant by she's aged out of that. So, I mean, there's some freedom in that. And I don't think it's like that as much. Yeah. It was. Well, I mean, I just feel like TV especially, and the comeback's honestly part of this, is like parts for women throughout many different phases of life and a career are so much more visible in TV than they were when the comeback started. And it feels like Valerie's world is part of that, too, and reflecting our reality in some way. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

13:18Yeah, I agree. Well, you said extinction event, talking about this AI, and I think that's what the comeback is. Reality TV felt like an extinction event 20 years ago. And so much of, you know, just reporting on this business and talking to people, there is this kind of like, oh, we're at the end feeling that people will just say like this idea that it's like truly all over. And I think that's there in the comeback, but it doesn't seem like you guys believe it. And there's a there's an element of this is kind of saying, you know, what you were saying about how you can survive it. I mean, did you guys kind of try to look at that despair that feels like it's part of the industry and find a way to include that as part of this?

13:53Well, we know that the perception of this as an extinction event is real. That's what people think. But with reality TV, what we call entertainment expanded. Yeah. So I think it'll be the same with AI. And then it's just always up to the audience if they're going to watch it or not. Is that why the strikes were important to kind of have in that first episode, too, the idea? Because, you know, those were so much about a lot of the specific stuff of saying, like, we got to fight or otherwise this business is going to go away for us. Yeah. But I don't know that—see, Michael and I don't—I don't think we believe it's going to go away.

14:39Yeah. Because entertainment is way too valuable and necessary for human beings. I mean, it'll look different, right? I mean, yeah, younger people are basically only watching YouTube. so that's different yeah um so that but that's business wise it's different um so there's that but if that's what you want to do though there will always be a need for entertainment yeah and and what are your requirements and human storytelling and i feel like what you guys are getting at is you know you have this you know the bradley whitford character who emerges late in the season of being like, he's been really good at what he does for a really long time for a reason.

15:23And I love that kind of pivot back to, you know, the old ways of doing things still work, which I think so many people are so ready to overlook sometimes. Yeah, well, and also look at the Odyssey. I mean, right? One of the hardest things to make. I've, you know, understood how they interview us correctly, you know, but yeah, without CGI and things like that, So, yeah, it's like it's artisanal entertainment crap. Yeah. Yeah. And there will always be value in that. And I think, you know, we deliberately had, you know, Andrew Scott, who played Brandon, the head of the new net, say, no, no, there will always be a place for, you know, the auteurs, the geniuses.

16:17Always. And I do believe that. Yeah. I think there will always be a place and work for them. Do you think he believes that or does he secretly think that the AI can replace them? It's hard to tell with guys like that. Oh, no, I think. Well, for now, anyway, no one's thinking past these days. I don't know how many. You feel like that's always been the case that everyone with these existential crises you're talking about, that everyone says, OK, this is the end. We can't see five years into the future. Not saying that you can, but is that like lack of seeing what's around the bend just always happening?

16:53Yes, but that's look, you can have the best script, the best actors, the best filmmakers working on something. And then something happens in the world and an audience doesn't want to see that story. You know, so you never know what's going to get in the way of, you know, and I don't know. It's a Wonderful Life was completely mismarketed. That's a great example. You know, like, hey, it's Jimmy Stewart. And boy, that was a pretty serious examination of what's a human being's inner life and what they think their life is worth. And yeah, woof. Saddest Christmas movie of all time. It was, but so good.

17:42and true. It's, that's like a forever always worthwhile story. It's always true. Gonna be true, yeah. The way you say that the, you know, there's always gonna be audience for stories and people are always gonna want these things, but also sometimes audiences aren't there when you need them or don't see it at the time or like with the comeback where it grows slowly and slowly over time. Do you just kind of learn to hope that something lands where it's supposed to and even if it takes time you can live with it? That seems like a very hard thing to learn how to accept. You know, that's one thing I have to say that I'm proud of, and I don't even know how it happened.

18:18When we were canceled in 2005, five, six, I don't know, right after the Emmys, I was not depressed. I was surprised. I was really surprised. But all I could think was, wow, that we did really, I'm really proud of that. I thought we executed that exactly the way we wanted to, I don't know how to feel anything but proud. And someone made a mistake. You felt confident about it then. Yeah. Yeah, I did. I just, and just accepted it. It was, I couldn't have imagined that I would have that attitude. You should teach classes. People need this wisdom in their lives. Well, I just knew that we did something good and I was always going to be proud of it.

19:10So, you know, and that's the way it goes. I mean, I remember every pilot season, you'd read a great script. There'd be such a great pilot. And then it wouldn't get picked up. And who knows why? But that human beings, sometimes they make mistakes. Yeah. Well, you see, like, The Long Life of Romeo and Michelle, you know, has this, you know, like, surge now. It's like sometimes time and something will rise up to be seen by the people it needs to. Yeah. Yeah, you never know. I mean, boy, and the comeback, sure. Yeah. Every 10 years, which was a gift because it became an event every 10 years based on what was happening in Valerie's world of the entertainment business, which was very different every 10 years.

19:58Yeah. Well, and you said, you know, this is the end. It's the end of a trilogy. But I just, you know, I have to imagine at least you guys are going to have lunch and talk about it, whether or not any of us ever get to see it. Like Valerie's version. It's going to have to live in your head somewhere. right? I guess. If it does, you won't be telling us about it. It's just between you guys. No, I don't know. But look, to me, it's that's the best validation was we got to do three. That's a trilogy. That's a whole story.

20:29That does it for today's episode. We will have more Emmy season conversations to come. In the meantime, this podcast is edited by Brett Fox and produced by Brett Fox and me. Our theme music is by Dave Gonzalez. You can find the Prestige Junkie newsletter at theankler.com. You can watch this podcast on YouTube. You can also subscribe there on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere else that you get your podcasts. We will see you soon.