Los Javis on the Ambition That Drove La Bola Negra, Plus a Look at TIFF's Big Winners

0:02Hi, everyone. I'm Katie Rich. This is the Prestige Jekie Podcast. And today, my colleague Christopher Rosen and I are back from the Toronto International Film Festival at long last. Who ever thought we would make it back? And Chris and I are going to run down the Toronto Film Festival Audience Awards because, Chris, we have awards. It's mid-September. We're back at it. You ready? I'm so psyched. after Chris and I go down Toronto memory lane, I'll be back with my very long on stage conversation with Los Javis, the directors of La Bola Negra, which as you're about to hear had a pretty excellent Toronto International Film Festival.

0:38Our conversation was about an hour. That'll be the bulk of this episode. But Chris and I will get into the winners first. All of that and more coming up. Welcome to the show.

0:49Chris, do you feel like you've been back from Toronto for like three months, as I just said before we started this. Yes. And the other day I was talking, I forget who I was talking to, but I was like, oh, Toronto's been over, right? And it's like, oh, no, it was still going on. There were people seeing films in Toronto at the Scotiabank Escalator, you know, the theater where all the press screenings are broke after we had already left. So that's how you know that Toronto was truly happening. But that's what makes it such a great festival is it goes on for a long time. It clears out the likes of us leaves.

1:18So people who actually live in Toronto get to stick around and see movies. and then they handed out some awards. What a time. I love it. I love awards, Katie. We finally have awards. I love data points. So this is a great time for us. We love data points. And so actually, as the data nerd of the two of us usually who remembers these things, the Toronto International Film Festival People's Choice Award is voted on only by people who attend the festival. It's not a juried award, but it has a very big Oscar history. Would you like to explain what that is? Yes. Typically, if you win this award, you're going to get nominated for Best Picture.

1:50And in fact, I think it was like 12 years in a row before Life of Chuck won and then broke that streak. I was at that world premiere of Life of Chuck. I don't know if you were there. I remember it well. And also, I actually wasn't there, but I still honestly, here's it. How about this? I'm saving this not for the take perch. Never even seen it, Katie. We haven't yet committed to doing a take perch episode. And yes, the best picture nomination history of it. I mean, you go back to recent past Hamnet, American fiction, Fablemans, Belfast, Nomadland, Jojo Rabbit. You get some best picture winners in there.

2:27You get a lot of nominees. It's a very, very strong track record. And also to like win Oscars, right? Like if you go back, it's like, I mean, you could go, I'm going back to 2012, Silver Linings Playbook won an Oscar, 12 Years a Slave won an Oscar, not best picture, but you know, 12 Years a Slave did. But I mean, these other, Imitation Game won an Oscar, Room won an Oscar, you know, these It's like, so if you win this award, good chance you're going to win an Oscar and a great chance you're going to end up as a Best Picture nominee. And then also, even if you place great or, you know, a very good chance as well.

2:58So that's kind of like the stakes, I guess. The interesting new wrinkle is that as of last year, they introduced an International People's Choice Award. And I have gone back and forth trying to figure out how all of this works, because I guess the spoiler alert, La Bola Negra, Spanish film, was eligible for International People's Choice, won the overall People's Choice Award. Meanwhile, Elsinore, also eligible for International People's Choice, won the People's Choice Award, despite the fact that it is British and is not eligible for an international feature Oscar. The confusion abounds. So this is the second year that we have the second category.

3:30I think a lot of us thought that LaBolla Nigra would be a shoe-in for the International People's Choice Award. What do you think it means that it just won the whole thing overall? I think it means, I mean, just basically that it like, boy, like incredible amount of enthusiasm for this movie. it premiered we we talked about this i guess together but i don't even know if we've talked about on like a pod or anything but like it premiered very late right like it was monday i think or tuesday yeah i was at the premiere after party whereas i oh god i don't remember where i said this out loud but uh everyone who worked for netflix that i ran into was very excited to tell me about the standing ovation that they got and i saw those on twitter people like very posting videos a lot of videos of a lot of standing ovations and it was like so they had like not a ton of like runway to win this award but screening this in like the biggest theaters and everything.

4:12And obviously the response has been so strong. And we kind of thought it would at least, like you said, like international award probably, or at least maybe place in here. But I mean, I just think it shows the enthusiasm for this movie that you kind of, we talked about from Cannes forward, right? And I saw this at Telluride. And it's just, people love this movie. They're really responding to it. So I guess that's what it means. When you saw it in the crowd at Telluride, not the same as a TIFF crowd, but did you get that sense of like, oh, there's a bunch of audience enthusiasm for this? I guess yeah I mean yes I think I did though at the same time like not as outwardly as I've seen like some of these like Elsinore I was like not to just jump around but I was like Elsinore I could tell the response to that movie when I saw it at Telluride you could just audibly hear people crying which I'm like I not really experienced maybe even during Hamnet honestly it was like last year's people's choice and Hamnet won so I was like okay so Elsinore will do like probably pretty well but LaBollinegra I thought like it was like people were locked in and then afterwards like most of the people I spoke to at Telluride at least were like, this movie is fantastic and I really loved it.

5:12And so like, you can kind of see that even if they're not like rip roaring, rip roaring applauding at Telluride. Like, you know, it was still like, oh, people love this. Sidebar, how do you feel about the standing ovations taking over TIFF? It was historically not a standing ovation kind of place, but it's really starting to take over. It's weird, I guess. I don't know. I was just like, are people trying to like, they're trying to do the Venice thing? As long as they're not keeping time, I don't care. I'm like, you know, respond how you want. I guess you could do a standing ovation. So I would love to know that, how the math about it works.

5:37As far as I can tell, La Bolle Negra got the most overall people's choice vote. So when you go and vote for people's choice, you just name a film. You don't like rank them or anything like that. So it's just the number of people who said, La Bolle Negra, one of my favorite films. You can vote for as many as you want. So one individual person could have voted for La Bolle Negra in 10 other movies, but it's a sheer quantity. I don't know if that means that Elsinore, which won the international people's choice, got the fourth most votes, like got fewer votes than I Play Rocky and Being Human, which are the second and third place in the main people's choice, or if there's something else going.

6:10I don't know how it works, but I do think that if you're Elsinore, you would rather get the top international one than second place to La Bola Negra in the main people's choice. There's a weird math about it that I imagine we can ask some of our publicist friends about how it works. I'm sure. And I agree with you, though. I thought like winning Elsinore winning anything was like a great boon for it, because I think like so like we could talk about like, what does this mean for Oscar? right like or the bola negra we were like that was getting in anyway yeah and like probably getting like 10 or 11 nominations right like it's like now and now i've seen now it's like is this the true the true like fighter against odyssey right i guess that's what you could say after this right like is this going to be the movie that wins netflix an oscar for best picture and can take down christopher nolan the odyssey hey maybe who knows right like it's only september 20th as we're recording this so like you know it could but i mean like it's a great sign that it won and then for elsinore i think like you know we saw this like that feels like a normie movie people really responded to it at telluride who were like you know like not me up for sure and i saw it and also responded this is not a judgment thing yeah no i'm like i i don't think that's going to be a critical fave let's say like i don't think that's going to win like new york film critic circle awards but i do think critics we know liked it like it's not like um like a bohemian rhapsody situation where critics are going to hate it.

7:29No, I don't think so. I think they're going to think it's fine. But I do think there's a real response to that movie and like showing up in the International Award, even though, like you said, it's like not eligible for international feature. It's crazy for Elsinore to qualify for International Award. Are American and Canadian movies considered domestic and everything else is international? I guess so. I don't really know. I guess so. I don't know either. But, you know, like fantastic for that. And I think like that shows that that is a strong contender. And I think as you're feeling as we're going through the season, I think more and more people may warm to that.

8:00Like, obviously, Andrew Scott is like a nominee and maybe a winner. But I think he could drag the whole movie into Best Picture, I guess. Well, like LeBola and Elsinore are kind of in opposite situations where everyone says LeBola Negro is this across the board contender. It's got all this craft. Those hobbies are such a, you know, I feel like an obvious shoe in for director. But can it get an actor nominated because it's this broad ensemble cast? It's not known people. Whereas Elsinore is like the actor is definitely getting nominated. Can anything else happen? And so it's kind of a boost for both of them in that way.

8:27I think so, too. And as looking at it, too, I was like, to your point, like, the biggest challenge, I guess, for Lobola Negra would be like an individual acting award. And then I was like, kind of, we've all seen the movie and it was like, oh, Penelope Cruz is not in it that much. Yeah. But I'm like, also, like, I could see her getting nominated, you know, or Glenn Close. But she's also got the invite right there. That's the huge challenge. I know. I know. She could do both this year, right? They changed roles. Or like, if they run like, Guitar Rica De La Fuente and Supporting Actor, maybe he could get in, though.

8:53Yeah. Who could tell? Like, there's so many different actors in the movie. To make them all supporting would basically be the play. Yeah, I don't think they've confirmed how they're going to play that. But I'm like, you know, like, can that drag in? And like you're saying, can Andrew Scott, like, drag Elsinore in for, like, a picture and, like, a screenplay nomination? Sure. And all of a sudden it makes him much more. Honestly, the makeup really stood out to me seeing that, like, recreating, you know, the effects of AIDS. And don't forget Dallas Buyers Club won a makeup Oscar a while ago for, you know, doing that on a low budget.

9:20So there's a precedent. Mm-hmm. I agree. Well, how do you feel about your friend, I Play Rocky, which I have still not seen. And you were there for the incredible world premiere where people are on their feet, again, with a standing ovation. Is second place a disappointment for them? I think it's hard to say yes, but I think maybe yes. So like we were saying before, like last year, Hamnet won. Frankenstein finished second. Wake Up Dead Man finished third. Frankenstein obviously got a Best Picture nomination and got in there. A couple of years ago, Life of Chuck won and Amelia Perez and Enora finished second and third.

9:51They both got Best Picture nominations. American Fiction won in 23 and The Holdovers for in a second. They both got Best Picture nominations. So like Fable Men's and Women Talking, those. So to me, it's like, okay, like one of these other two movies should probably get a Best Picture nomination. There could be an outlier. But then you're like, what if, so now these are two movies that I think people were not considering very seriously before TIFF. I play Rocky and Being Human. I play Rocky and Being Human. And even though I finished second, I actually think this is a bigger boon for being human.

10:21because I really was wondering, like, love I play Rocky, you know. So I'm like, that's my thing. But I'm like, how much will people care? I think if it's a different academy now, it's much more international. Is that 25 % or whatever it is of the international academy going to care about the making of Rocky from 50 years ago? Great question. And being human, while also a very American story, right, like about the disability rights and stuff, it obviously, Ruth Madley is a British actress. or so it's like you know there is more not an international feel to that but i do think it's more maybe a universal story in terms of like disability rights as a not just an american thing it's a global thing yeah and i was like okay so like being human does that get in for ruth because we've talked about like best actress being a little slim casting i think it should be like a shoe-in frankly no matter what because it's like we we talked about this when we were doing our live stuff but like man finding all these actors with disabilities and they're all so great and you've never seen them before it feels like a real casting coup yeah and i'm like does that just drag it in for best picture and are those the two best is it love olenegra and being human and i play rocky does well in other places but maybe not best picture that's how i took away from this because i was like i don't know i think i if i play rocky would have won i think that would have been much better for it finishing second feels a little light yeah i mean i play i play rocky is it going to be a tiff only phenomenon i think is still an open question for it um kind of like the Knives Out movies have, honestly, even though I thought Wake Up Dead Man was terrific.

11:46But, you know, Frankenstein came in second place last year and look how well it did for itself. So it feels like that's a, you know, that's a boost to keep it going forward. If it was 10 years, like, I'm just like, it's so great, but if it was 10 years ago, I think absolutely we get it. And now I'm not so sure just because of a different academy and like, we'll see what happens. But obviously like it needed, if it didn't show up, like we were to look back to last year, we kind of knew this going into the awards last year, But like Rental Family was like last year's maybe I Play Rocky or it's like this feels like a shoe in for an audience.

12:15And it just flopped. And it's like, OK, well, then now it's out. And so like it got warm, but typically received in Toronto. And that wrote the story for that one. Correct. So I'm like I Play Rocky getting in there is great for it. I think like obviously needed to show up here. But yeah, so well, so we talked about Elsinore winning the international contest, even though it seems crazy to call that an international film. The first runner up was Possible Love, which you did not see in Toronto. Not yet. It screened late. I remember like several of our press friends going into the screening and coming up being like, holy shit, this movie.

12:47As you know, I think we were both in the studio when the cast was coming through and watching the Venice Awards, where a lot of them, ourselves included, thought it might win the Golden Lion. It didn't win. It lost. Oh, my God. Anonymous woman? Woman Unknown? Is that what it's called? Woman Unknown. Oh, Lord. It's going to come up. Name a woman. Name a woman, she'll win Venice. So Possible Love came in with all this Venice heat. Winning second place in TIFF, I mean, it is a long movie. It is talky. It does not have any kind of, like, stand-up and sheer moments like I Play Rocky or even Elsinore does.

13:18So it winning is interesting. Like, it's less of a crowd pleaser even than something like Sentimental Value, which I think got in second place last year, or No Other Choice, which was the top prize winner. It is interesting that No Other Choice won last year and then Possible Love as well as the second runner-up, The Assassin, which I don't know anyone who saw and was not really on my radar. Also a South Korean movie. Big year for South Korean film. So Boss Will Love Winning is a big coup. But for me, there's also the movies that didn't make this list. Do you anything noteworthy that's not here?

13:47I mean, I guess you could say Fjord, right? Like it's a Palme d 'Or winner was eligible here. We saw like on the ground in Tiff, the response is polarized. I would say to be polite. Which is certainly the purpose of the purpose, but like one of the goals of that movie. And I don't think that's like a negative in terms of it's Oscar bona fide, certainly at all. And I'll just be like, it would have been nice to show up here, I guess. Like, let's say that. And like, is like Impossible Love, I have not seen yet, but you obviously I know from you, it's like really strong. And it's like, can that like kind of be a serious contender, certainly for director, maybe picture?

14:23And does it like kind of sneak in? Because I do think if it gets like a wave of critical support later this year and like the critics groups, I think that will go a long way to helping it push through. And maybe this is like like you're saying, like it's not a crowd pleaser, but like it's also must it just must be really good then. Right. Like because that's the other thing. Like it doesn't just have to be a crowd pleaser, but like people are just like responding to like, you know, movie I really love. possible love. Which I guess Club Kid, we talked about as a potential audience award winner and it didn't come through.

14:52I don't know if that means anything. The movie's just kind of small in some ways compared to what made it in there but maybe that just means there are too many good movies. I mean, if we're talking about what missed, there were a lot of good movies this year for sure. I think going into it, we didn't even mention the debut people thought was maybe going to win. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was not surprised it didn't even show up though because we were talking about this on our group chat with Joe and Joe Reed and Chris Weill are good pals. But it's just like, it did feel like is that, has that, is that, I think the people who love that movie will love that movie like me.

15:22And like, I know like you liked it also. But like, you know, like people love it. I think it might be East Coast, West Coast battle. And I definitely think it's like, you love Julianne Moore. If it was an audience word for a person, Julianne Moore probably would have won based on the response in Tiff. But it's for the movie. And you know, like people, maybe it'll be a little softer on the movie than they are on her. And then for Club Kid, I do think it was like, it's not like a, it's not bad that it didn't show up here, right? It would have been great, but it was not necessary. Yeah, the debut as a Best Picture contender, I think is an interesting question and was regardless of this award because it is divisive.

15:56It goes in a lot of directions that are not evident in the trailer. And I think some people are going to say, oh my God, I'm not on board for this. And some people are going to, you know, go along with it. And it'll just be interesting to see how that shakes out overall. It's a bigger movie than A Real Pain, but I just keep going back to like A Real Pain felt like it should have gotten in for Best Picture and it got a lot of precursors. And then when we got to Best Picture, it just missed. And I don't know that that'll happen here. And I think the debut is actually better than A Real Pain, just like, but that maybe doesn't matter.

16:24But I do think it'll have better reviews even. And we'll see. I think it should still get in, but like, it'll be interesting to see how the rest of the season plays out. And especially if now we've seen a lot of movies, but now we have a lot coming up, right? Like Digger and Artificial and Dune and Cliff Booth and any of those and Behemoth. if any of those end up like really strong too as a movie then that's going to hurt like maybe some of these other movies that are like debut and club kid probably putting them together just being like can they hang on yeah to the early buzz if these new movies come in and like push them aside here's something i'm thinking about and this is not a fully firm thought but maybe to to wrap us up here so we have kind of the international slot in our heads of saying like there's an international director is going to get a best director there's going to be some international hit that makes it through like basically Parasite onward.

17:10And then there's the years where Netflix has the big international movie. So you have the All Quiet on the Western Front year where like it's the Netflix movie. It's going to go through and win a bunch of Oscars. And then there's a secondary international feature. So it's Triangle of Sadness that year. Or then you have the Amelia Perez year, which has all kinds of external factors, but it goes gets a ton of nominations. But then the substance kind of sneaks in alongside it. And so I think this is clearly going to be another one of those years like last year in the best picture lineup is sentimental value and secret agent they're kind of a similar level of scale and probably still actually no sentimental value got a ton nomination so maybe that's the netflix one anyway what is the other international movie if we're saying there's the huge netflix one that sucks up a ton of nominations that's la bolo negro what is the second one going to be and i don't i don't know i can't figure out what it might be i don't know either i won't i i keep i'm like i lean towards all of a sudden just because like Drive My Car was such a like a breakthrough and like I know and obviously I think all of a sudden could have like an acting nomination too which maybe would help yeah but I'm also like it is so long like and like maybe a little like not I guess maybe a little restrained or something like will people push it through I'm like I keep waffling on Fjord where sometimes I'm just like it's definitely going to get in and director can get into and then I'm like man it should just be doing like it should be doing more it should just or is it like should people just be more excited about it like you know what i mean like even though the i think like the polarization of it and the discussion around the movie is like the feature of the movie right like even you like sebastian stan said this to you right and christian triangle of sadness right like trying to provoke you and it is but i'm like triangle of sadness had more like would you say it was more not fun maybe like a little more like this is definitely more fun like so i'm just like does that like hurt fjord and like is it like something people are being provoked and like kind of want to talk about but not enthusiastic about it and then does like possible love or all of a sudden one of those get in with lobola negra which i think you're right like will kind of be like the big like 10 11 12 netflix nomination movie for international feature this year yeah i mean the substance is kind of the evidence that the movie that gets people passionate one way or another um might get you in there so maybe that's an argument for fjord or maybe that's an argument for the you know what i really loved possible love kind of thing and that's two netflix movies in the international slot which is fascinating to think about because their other i mean cliff booth being the giant question mark but those are i think those are their two big contenders at this point right am i missing something no i think that's right because everything else was i mean i guess ink too but i don't think that's going to be like a bigger best picture play i think for them no and and i think that helps like to be like at this time last year and we saw like there were kind of cracks in the in the foundation of some of these movies but they had so many movies last year where it was like this could be like a best picture contender this could be and this year no disrespect to the movies it's like they are fully focused it feels like on lombolone negra as like their number one best picture contender.

20:01Yeah. And that's good, I think. With good reason. LeBola Negre clearly has passion behind it. It clearly has, you know, directors who, as you're about to hear, are fascinating to talk to, are great advocates for this movie. All these stars who are like excited to see and like see in a room, they're going to have, they're going to be able to do the Koda thing where all those guys are going to show up in a room as you saw in our studio. And you're going to be like, oh my God, look at this Spanish handsomeness all around me. It's dazzling. The one thing I'll say too about this is I think this was the first Netflix movie to ever win an audience award, right?

20:31Oh, really? I'm scrolling through. I know. So Frankenstein placed, Amelia Perez placed, Glass Onion placed, Power the Dog got third place, kind of wild in 2021. What a weird year. Marriage Story got in second place. Roma got third place. Yeah, you're totally right. So to me, I'm like, I think that's a sign. But the other thing I think we can't really sleep on, especially because we're always like, oh, Netflix is going to have a ton of nominations. We know they're going to do great mobilizing a campaign. And then when it gets to being the win, like they kind of either they just don't have the movie or whatever it is.

21:03Right. There's a million reasons why they haven't won Best Picture yet, despite like a lot of great movies and nominations. But I do think you can't sleep on the fact that this is going to have like a real theatrical release. Yeah, absolutely. They're going to report box office for the first time. And I think that matters. And I think that'll be like a big feather in their cap, no matter how it does. And I'm sure it'll do really well in like limited release. It'll probably have a great platform release and like maybe, you know, the highest per per screen average of the year or whatever kind of numbers they could throw out.

21:29But I mean, like a lot of if we assume that there are Oscar voters out there who are like, I'm never going to vote for a Netflix movie for best picture because they're not like in the movie theaters. And it's like that kind of voter. This is kind of like, yeah, now it is. And so Cliff Booth right behind it doing a similar thing. It's a really strong statement from them. And I do think that'll be like, that's why I think like a lot of the the bias that we think they maybe have against Netflix will not be applicable this year with these movies. And so that's another reason why Bola Negra, I think, will be really strong.

21:58And whether, who knows, if it's going to, we don't need, again, it's so, it's end of September. We don't need to say, like, what's going to win or not. But I do think it is a very strong contender for them and maybe their strongest ever. So, well, that seems like a perfect place to lead into my conversation with Javier Calvo and Javier Ambrosi. Los Javis, the directors of Lola Negra, live on stage at the TIFF market last Monday. I mean, Chris, you I think I came back and told you that how delightful they were and fun to talk to and to spend like a full hour. And I feel like we didn't even get to everything like you.

22:28You talk to them, too. You know how like great and eloquent and like fun they are. they're so great i have to say like i love all your interviews katie but i'm really excited to sit through and listen to this one i'm so excited i think it's gonna be really good and to have so much time with them i think it'll be really cool so i'm very excited it was a total gift i hope you all enjoy it as much as i did so hang on for a moment i'll be right back with my conversation with the directors of la bola negra tiff people's choice award winner los abis

22:58hi everybody oh wow it's a loud microphone we could we could just project all these guys pretty easily if we wanted to. Thank you guys so much for being here. How's your tip? Thank you. I know your film hasn't screened yet, but how's Toronto? Tomorrow. Tomorrow. We have been in hotels, in cars. In cars. Well, yesterday we got to walk from the gala to the hotel. It was a 10-minute walk. It was nice. Fresh air. It was nice. Wow. Such a beautiful city. So I guess... Those 10 minutes. We saw Toronto. Beautiful. Two streets. but they were nice. You'll have to come back properly and see the city. Well, you're about to have the experience of seeing your film with an audience again, but you had a pretty memorable time at Cannes where La Bola Negra premiered.

23:42And we've got a lot of time to talk. We get to really rewind backwards. But I wanted to start at Cannes at the awards ceremony where you won the Best Director Prize together. It's been a few months. Have you processed it? How do you think about that moment now? It was such a magical moment. Best Director. You know, Isabella Perchette, très chic, when we got out of the stage. And I really think it's a chic award. But, you know, we're used to see this man winning director, you know. And we, yeah, I never crossed my mind that was a recognition we could have. But then we go back to what this shooting has been.

24:33It's been crazy. Like under the rain, storms, things flowing out, thousands and thousands of extras, three timelines, many, many actors. And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was hard to direct this movie, so thank you. It was like some encouragement words. Like you're doing all right, yeah. Wow. So that award is that, even though it had premiered already, you'd had that moment of seeing a crowd really respond to it. That moment in can of an award. I mean, it means something, right? To have that kind of recognition. It does. I feel peaceful with this movie. It's like the first time I don't think I have to push.

25:18I'm very used to push in every direction with every project because we are directors that we learn by ourselves. and we are producers and writers of everything. So we are used to do everything. And we are the ones that we were with our first play in Madrid. We were just putting the posters in the wall and selling the merchandising, the t-shirts to the audience. So we're very used to want to be liked. And suddenly Cannes was like a new way of thinking. like the movie it's speaking for itself so it has been very very very very nice to feel that the movie works and you don't have to be like all the time trying to explain it or being nice or that it doesn't depend on who you are.

26:12That the movie is itself and you've done your job in some ways. And I think that award really is specific for the directing that of course we did so it's very yeah I feel peace inside the movie it's itself and also it speaks it's a part of us so we put our souls in our heart every part of the team, the crew, the actors so it speaks for itself because the movie it's part of us and when we are in crazy situations like being in festivals or being with a big crowd we tried to think about the purpose it's a movie with a purpose and with a message and we are here to talk about this message and I love that I love to go back to why we wrote it and that's always it's like that really grounds you it's like the movie is a message and a tribute to the LGBTQ plus community that went before us and they fought and they couldn't be able to love.

27:24In some cases, they were killed, like Federico Garcia Lorca. And yeah, when you remember that, suddenly nothing else is very important. It's like you're the vessel for a message. Yeah, I love to think that. And I learned that from a TV show we created called Veneno. that Veneno was very useful in that sense that I was like, okay, I'm here, but I'm telling this story. I'm not telling myself. Less ego. No, because you can be involved in an egoistic situation when you're in all the festivals and everything. So you try to remember. Yeah. Well, we want to talk about Lobolo Negra, and I know some people probably haven't seen it, so we won't spoil anything.

28:17But I do want to rewind because as far as I understand it, you both started off as actors, but it wasn't too long after you just met each other that you knew you wanted to work together also, which is, you know, not all actors make that leap to wanting to create their own thing. So what do you remember about meeting each other and having that spark of saying we can create things together and what did you bond over that made you think that was possible? I think I was an actor because, well I have this creativity like need creative need but I wrote when I was a kid a lot and I thought actor was the best way to get into this world because I just had to audition.

29:00I didn't know how to do writing scripts directing. It was something that that was really far from me. And when I was like 15, 16, I went to auditions and auditions to get in touch with that world. And then I got cast in a television series as a gay teen actor. Never worked again after that. So that's why we have that political statement in our movie. We want to cast gay actors as gay characters because after that, I never had an audition again. But my passion was to write and my passion was movies. I actually, when I was in the show, I asked, I said I wanted to leave. And they said, no, stay. The show is very successful.

29:46And I said, okay, let me direct one episode. And they're like, you're 17. So, yeah. Do you think you should have been able to direct it or were you not ready yet? I think they should have let me direct one scene. I agree. At least try. What's the harm in trying? Good marketing, you know. That's true. this kid teen director makes you yeah but yeah and then I didn't have a job after that and we met and he was attending actor waiter waiter common job I've heard of that before I mean waiter not actor and you know it was a 2009 economic crisis so in Madrid there were a lot of theaters that there were like little houses or little like small places making like a lot of small places making theater because we didn't have jobs.

30:46We didn't have anything so we made like we made what we could and there was like a little scene there and that's how we started to write theater and then the rest is history. Yeah, then everything happened. Okay, your turn. In my case, I'm a director I'm very influenced by literature. I was a kid that read, that was my thing, books. Like I started reading when I was very young and it was always with me. So I'm very influenced by literature and acting, starting my life like a coincidence, but never worked out for me. I had to say goodbye. I loved it and it was very I dreamt about it, I was obsessed about getting it, but it was not for me and I assumed it in one moment I said no, it's not going to work, I have to say no, this door is not opening and I remember the kid I was and how much I loved writing and when we met, we were like let's write a 15 minutes play for 15 people and let's see and we instantly felt a connection with the audience.

32:03And that same audience, the 15 people suddenly were 30 and 100. And then we wrote for our off-scene small musical for the stage. It was big. And then we had the chance to direct the movie based on our musical. And then, so we were like climbing the stairs like step by step. and learning every day. So in my case, it was very natural. Yeah, and acting, studying acting, that training helped us with the actors nowadays. Of course. And also with the dialogues. We never leave a dialogue on the script. We can't act naturally when we're reading it. And we respect so much the actors. We try to generate atmospheres on set that are actors-oriented.

32:57all the time. Our crew, they know how important is the silence on set. That is not something that you get. And they know, working with us, you have to be, when I say actor on set, it's actor on set. And they know that it's important because they have to believe they are doing something. They cannot hear someone talking. They know they have to be not in the white and not looking. If you're seeing the actor, you're not in a good place. That's always a line I'd say when I'm directing. So we respect them so much and put so much effort in casting, researching, working with them, adapting dialogues for them, taking care of what they feel need.

33:46Not only the characters, the humans. And that's very special. There's so much music in La Bola Negra. it's not a musical but there's musical influence and knowing that you started as a musical why musicals? Why was that kind of the spark for the two of you to make and how has it kind of stuck with you as you move on to make other things? I create through music every time I'm stuck writing a script I just would go for a walk with my headphones and listening to songs and then a song would open me a new world and a new scene and I would understand something. I think it's because music has two things that are important for us.

34:34Atmosphere. It has the power to create an atmosphere. And we have all the time speakers on set just play music to get that atmosphere, to take care of that atmosphere. And then poetry. Like one line can mean a thousand things and every time I listen to a song, I find a new meaning and that leads me to a creative thinking and I can understand something new from a scene. And it's something that happens in La Bola Negra, like the power of the polysemia in poetry. Then I think it's a spark for inspiration for us. Yeah, and for example, When we were shooting La Mesías, it was an episode that is supposed to be Christmas.

35:28And we were having Christmas carols like every day of the shooting. But it's sad. At every moment. Did you drive everyone crazy? Everyone was crazy. When we ended that shooting of that episode, everyone was like, oh my God. Imagine like a quiet house. And then, holy night. It was so scary and so sad. But we tried to make it easy for the actors. Music has the power to really connect you. And we always ask the actors, tell me your favorite songs. And what songs are special for you? What makes you remind your mother or your childhood? And we have a list for every actor. And writing, if you read one of our scripts, the songs are there.

36:17like all the cuts, all the details all the wardrobe and the songs so we really write with songs in mind there's a rhythmic quality to La Bola Negra too with the editing and the way that you have these three stories you're twinning together, do you think that that comes from music as well? And from literature it's like a novel and it's like a musical in a way it's an opera I think more operistic Yeah, I can tell the influence that I had from big books that I love, like Bolaño, that amount of things, of characters, of themes. And literature is very unapologetic and very free. And I don't get to see that many movies in that way.

37:07You know, that movies, they have big budgets and they have to be for everyone. That's what people say. And then that's why sometimes the weirdest things or the craziest things or the big things is, no, it's not going to be for everyone. Let's cut it. But literature has this that is an author and screen. So the imagination is so big that and no one is telling you, no, write for everyone. that's not happening so yeah I think that Lanegra is very influenced by by the poetry and literature in general and regarding rhythm we have the best editor Alberto Gutierrez he's amazing and he has a really good rhythm and sometimes we have to take a step back from good rhythm in order to make it a little bit less you don't want to make it like you want to make it easy to watch and for the audience but also like take a step back with music also we don't want the music to support the narrative all the time we want it to be like another layer of art and yeah it's a work we take a step forward in rhythm then we take a step back and it's like a balance a dance we make You're talking about this ambition of what you can do in literature and go really big.

38:37And Le Bolognese, I think, is a perfect encapsulation of that. And to repeat the origin story that I know you've talked about with this before, it starts with a play that is a pretty simple story about Sebastian and Raphael, the two main, I think, the central characters. You can tell me if I'm wrong. And it's not like you saying, oh, I've read this short play about these two guys. Let's make that. I think it was you, Javi, who said, no, let's make it enormous. Yeah. Because that's really ambitious and kind of wild to say, look, we don't have to tell one story, we're going to tell three. Why was it so clearly something that should be huge when you encountered this one story?

39:11When I read the play, it just came to my mind that it had to be big. And the play is so small. It's like so fragile and it's about the relationship between them that I don't know why I had that thought. I think it's because the context of Sebastián and Rafael's story is the war, what made me thought, oh, just, I want to see the context of the relationship. But at the same time, I was like, but I don't want to do that movie, a movie only about that, the civil war, characters and war. It was like, I was missing something. And at the end of the play, Rafael asked Sebastián to keep La Bola Negra. and I was, what's that?

39:59And it's one of the unfinished plays by Federico García Lorca. And the four pages are so, so, so magical because there's only four pages of La Bola Negra because Federico was killed. So Rafael is asking Sebastián to keep those four pages and we were trying to research and to understand what Federico wanted to do and he was having, for the first time of his career, an explicit gay character. He wanted to do that and he was killed. It was like, oh my God, I need to reimagine or in a way finish what he wanted. And so we were adapting a play. We were revisiting, reimagining the four pages, like what would have been.

40:46And we suddenly knew that it was the story of our grandparents. And so it was like, oh my God, it was 90 years ago that the people was killed in Spain. And it was very emotional to discover that. And we needed to write a present storyline to talk about how we felt about that. And it was working and working and researching. And suddenly intertwining everything. We knew we had something. I think adapting is like when you read something and you tell it to your best friend. you get the things that touch you and sometimes you also imagine new things so the journey with this play was because it was like a lot of talking talking, talking, talking it was like a really long conversation the original play it's the last night of Rafael the journey was this play get the essence make it small in a way in order to make it big So when you get the essence and what they need to talk about, like what's the only lines you need, because the rest is just looking at each other, gazing, peeking.

42:02And then when we have this essence, then we put the other, like the big elements. And it's not a queer story in the original play. You added that? I read it like that. I mean, it's... You can feel it's queer, but they don't... No, I think it's not supposed to be. He washes... Like, the only queer thing that happens in the play is Sebastian washes... Rafael? Rafael's feet, like Jesus Christ, in the end. That's the only queer thing. You can build on that. No, no, but when we read it, it was, like, very obvious. It was like, oh, I know what is going on. So we wanted to make it more explicit, like Lorca wanted to do with La Bola Negra, and we wanted to do it big.

42:53In order to pay tribute to Federico, it's like, he deserves big. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're saying you're going to immediately connect to this being at your grandparents. Clearly, you grew up in Spain. The Spanish Civil War is their presence. But how much had you guys thought about it as artists? Did you ever really think that this was something you wanted to tackle? Was it calling to you as a subject before you encountered this play? When I read, when I took the book of La Bula Negra, I read the first monologue, and it's... La Piedra Oscura? La Piedra Oscura, sorry. I read the first monologue, and it was Sebastián talking to the audience about the bombing of his town.

43:33Which is a sequence you'll never forget when you see the movie. And abandoning his mother. And I immediately started to cry. And I didn't understand why. Why was this touching me? And it's because it touched a wound I didn't know I had, like inherited pain. And it made me understand the inheritance of pain, shame as LGBTQ plus community, and also how art is inherited and passes hand to hand, like an object, like a real thing. So, yeah, it was like, oh my god, why is this touching me? And I don't know, I have this unresolved thing in me. And it's because we haven't sat down to resolve our differences and to understand what happened.

44:29The civil war is a messy war. It's chaotic. And we haven't agreed between all, like, us Spaniards in what happened and to resolve it. It's not closed. It's like Alberto and his mother, Carlos Gonzalez and Lola Dueñas, all the storyline is about that. As a family, they're not able to talk about the past, so and communication is the easiest way towards violence, and they always are angry and screaming because it's like, why don't we talk about what happened in our lives. Like war, but all could be our childhood or LGBT community in the past. I mean, yeah, we were killed. We weren't allowed to love.

45:20And suddenly we are free. But no one explained what happened. Like, it's like, okay, at some point it was forbidden to be me. Now it is okay to be me. And in the middle it's like, no one said I'm sorry. no one said I was wrong it's like no let's change it and forget it and I think war, our community families, childhood they need to be talked I mean I want to talk about my childhood with my parents but they're like oh my god that was so many times ago it's like when the mother says you were a happy child and he's like what? I wasn't a happy child that happens all the time in families Mom, you never listen to me.

46:07Me? And in a funny way, that happens all the time. So imagine in our community, it's even bigger. It's like, oh my God, it's happening all the time. The debate about trans people is like constantly, constantly being killed in countries. What's going on? No one talks about it. So you have this chance to bring the past back. So much of this is about the past is not gone. It's right here. These people are our grandparents, but they're just like us. You have this ambition, and you have, I think,$15 million around there to make that happen. 50 million euros could be a little bit more dollars. Not a lot of money by any war epic standard.

46:49For Spain, it's better. It's one of the biggest you can get. The scope of it still, when you see this film, is pretty remarkable. How do you approach that? How do you say we have these ambitions, we're going to make this happen? Where do you start to make sure that you can actually realize that on screen? How do we make La Bola Negra with that budget? It was a lot of work. It was a whole team just dedicated in his heart and soul to this movie. But also, it was about creative decisions. so it was like okay I always ask my godfathers of cinema and I understand Tarkovsky or Angelo Paulus they sometimes would compose a beautiful shot in war just with mist and bodies perfectly composed so sometimes yes we can have a bombing we can have many things but sometimes it's about just a room a wall, Rafael sitting with a nurse, washing him, and nothing else.

48:03You just need, like, it's about compensating and trusting the poetry of the simple things. And you don't need to build this whole hospital. You can have this abandoned building with a beautiful texture on the walls, have people, and compose things in a beautiful way. So, yeah, it was about how you get creative solutions. And, you know, when you said, let's have dinner, how was it? No, no, no. The art department, at some point, we don't have any more money. But let's do it outside. It's like, I cannot build a place where the soldiers could eat. And it's like, okay, you have a table. So let's go outside in the dark, a spotlight, and just put them all around the table.

49:02And we will find out how. And it's beautiful. All the soldiers are on the table. It's so beautiful. or we use a lot of empty spaces and like know exactly what we have written in the page. We always tell the departments that they cannot say no. It's like, just find, no, we are very flexible. They know that. So we will find out how. You figure it out together. Yeah, let's make it. It's like, no, we cannot. It's like, I don't think that's an answer. No, I mean, we can do it. Maybe it's not what I imagined, but let's find out. Maybe it's just a super, super close-up of the eye and the sound of, I don't know, of a train.

49:51You don't have to be in a train or in a plane. If I don't have the money to be in a plane, just, I don't want to see the plane. Cinema is about ellipses, you know, and what you put together. So just cut the line you don't need. Trust the eyes of the actor. And if you don't, for example, with Carlos, when they shouted at him, Niño de Nieve, you have this fire of the revolution, we didn't have time to get him. So we were like, okay, the camera is going to be him. And people are going to look at the camera. So this kind of decisions and trying to get the audience to put together the pieces that are missing is, for me, cinema.

50:32So you're talking about the faces of the actors. You're collecting a couple of people doing their first screen performances in this. And to start with Guitirica de la Fuente, who's playing with Rafael Sebastian. Sebastian. I think you said you wanted his sad eyes. That was the key for bringing him in. Did you know him? I know he had a career as a musician. Did you know him before bringing him into this? We were fans. That's a way of knowing somebody. Yes. And we wanted to choose someone that you want to look at. And he has that. And we wrote the movie for him. We were starting the process of writing, and we had a meeting with him.

51:10It's like, we're going to adapt this play. I don't know how it's going to turn out, but it's going to be for you. So will you be ready to do a movie? And he was like, okay, I will do it. Just like that? That easily? And I was like, where's the script? He was like, we will write it for you. But you have to say yes, because I'm writing for you. And he was like, okay. and I was like can you sign because I'm writing I'm putting so much effort that's how specific we are we adapt what we want to make to someone and we want to write for him so he was like I will do it so we write it for him and adapt the good things of the play for him to say and with him in mind and watching videos of him that's going to be okay that I think that emotion could be inside of him.

52:08And we were right. He's such a great actor. We could try to imitate. So I would see all his interviews and understand who he was and how he reacts to things. And we would write, yeah, making him like a suit, trying to understand how he would do things. So he puts so much faith in you guys. Well, you're putting faith in both ways, that you're going to write a script that he wants to do. and then you're trusting that he will be ready to do it. I mean, he's a performer, obviously. You have that in there. Do you think him being a musician, going back to talking about music, made you know, like, even if he's never acted before, he's going to understand what they're trying to do here?

52:45Yeah, of course. I think the singers, they're the good ones. They have an ability, extraordinary ability, to be near catharsis because they work with text. They work with emotions. They work with rhythm. and they have to find the connection to the song in a personal way because there's only them saying something. So they are very good finding where they are in a text. And once you learn that, you're not afraid of singers. Singers, the good ones, they are actors. And Alara said to me, I don't know how to act. And I'm like, well, when I see you sitting there concentrating for a song, just putting yourself in the place you need to be to tell the story that it's a song.

53:34And then you decide to give one line louder, then one line softer, then look on the spotlight, then look on the floor, then think, that's acting. So you're telling a story through a song. So it's the same. It's like a cover. When they cover a song that is not theirs, they're acting exactly the way we want them. It's like our own technique. It's like a cover. It's like, it's not your song. You didn't write it, but you have to find your way to feel it's yours. It's Sebastian's song. Yeah. It's like a song. You have to make a cover of Sebastian, but it's not a song. It's a text that Javier Mee wrote.

54:15Yeah. So you have him and Miguel Bernardo who are playing the central story, and Miguel is a more experienced actor. Yeah, he's very... So putting them together is interesting. They don't feel like they're coming from different worlds, but the characters kind of are coming from different worlds. So knowing that you both have this background as actors, how do you approach putting them together and making this a lot of ways unspoken connection that has to exist between these characters? We needed someone with a strong technique like Miguel has to support Guitar Rica's wildness. And we make them become friends, like go have dinner together.

54:50OK. You know, and what do you like about him? What do you like? Like we may like try to make that connection they have. through dynamics and through, you know, it's a good thing to shoot outside Madrid because we get to kind of camp, live together, get to know each other. Hey, we're going to have dinner here. And we got to rehearse a lot in the sets, the sets we were going to shoot. So we like to be alone with the actors, just feel how is it to habit the place without the stress of the shooting, hearing the sound of the sea outside of the window get to work with them and get to understand and get to have a relationship between them we learn by ourselves to be directors like I said before so we need space and love to create and we need time that's our technique our technique We are surrounded by friends, and all the chief of department there are good friends.

56:01We have been working with them since forever. So we need that. And exactly that's what we give to the actors. Like space and time and a real relationship with us, and having the chance to meet each other, and we don't rush things. and the first scene it was like, I just want you to think about one thing you like about the other. Like, what specific one thing you like? And they told me. And it's like, think about that one thing. Like, you are opening your eyes and you will see someone. It's like, oh. And the thought is like, something that I like. One. And that was a very good starting point. Like, to find someone in the other that you like.

56:46One thing, they're enemies, but they are human. And the whole movie about empathy is like, other people even is like far away of what we think of the world. They're humans. Yeah. In a way and in the other. So you said that's a lot of the same collaborators you've been working with previously, but obviously this is a different scale, a different focus of what you've done. Do you find yourself changing the way that you're all working together with each other, with your actors, with your collaborators? or is it more similar than we might think making a war epic compared to the TV projects and everything else?

57:21It's fun how similar it is. It is so similar to the first thing. The result is so different. I feel like we've learned how to make cinema together. And it's a beautiful thing because we know each other. I would say, I'm going to have the script in two months and my team would say, you're not. You're not. You're going to have a year. I won't change a word from the script. You are. I will keep it simple. No. No, it's going to happen. People who know you best can know how to guide you. I will be in budget. No. I will be on time. No. But, you know, it's good. They know us. And we respect and admire each other.

58:09And it's a good thing because we like to think as a movie as a collaborative thing. and I would ask everyone, hey, what do you think about this scene? Do you like it? Or I peek, I see other people and if it's a funny scene until the guy with the microphone is not laughing and trying to like, or if it's an emotional scene, I need to see my script crying. Like, you know, I need the people to feel what the audience is supposed to feel on set. I need that magical thing to happen And I only get that when we're family, we're relaxed, and everyone wants the movie to be as good as possible. To ask a really basic question, on a set, is one of you by the monitor and one of you by the actors?

58:56Is one of you looking at the script? How do you divide on a day-to-day basis? To be a director, writer, producer, to me, is attached to work with him because we didn't do it separately. And so it's like we are connected. It's like all the times we directed, we did it together. So I think we have found out a technique together during these 13 years directing. And Javi's very good in the specific. He is great with the camera, the cuts, the music, the exact line, the rhythm. I guess very, very, very, very specific on everything he wants. I'm very obsessive. It's like, that's what I want. Exactly what I want.

59:49And I have to get it any other way. And I guess I'm more emotional oriented. I'm very open and try to understand atmospheres and emotions and the big purpose of the movie or working with people and trying to adapt to them, I guess, yeah, I have a macro mind. Javi was a micro mind. It doesn't make sense. He's like the oracle. Like the guy who knows how to find water in the desert. So I would say this actor, Javi, is not saying the lines properly. I'm worried. And he would say, no worry. he's got it inside. He's been through the same thing. He will have the catharsis. He will have it one day. And I'm like, well, I'm waiting for that day.

1:00:43But then that day comes and everything is different. And he would guide me. He would say, I'm like, no, I need this. And he was like, You don't really like that actor. And he was like, you got the magic. You got the magic. Maybe it's not perfect, Javi, but you got the magic moment. So just move on. And I was like, okay. I'll move on. You know, like, he feels, oh, he was like, I would say, I want this line, I want this, and then he would say to me, then you want to talk about this. You know, like, yeah, he's like connected. But you need someone who can do both, right? You need someone to say, like, this water glass isn't where I want it to be, so it has to get moved, and someone to say, in the big picture, in the final edit, it won't matter.

1:01:25But we collaborate, and we talk a lot, we are always together, and so that micro and macro conversation finally was like, So we're doing this. And we have a decision in every department. And, yeah, we are very good speaking with people and collaborating with people and having horizontal communication with every department all the time. So we are not afraid of having doubts or not knowing or having different thoughts. Like maybe he thinks something, I will think opposite. I'm not scared of that. directors have been always portrayed like one piece people like I know exactly I'm the leader that's going to be done now and like sometimes I don't know and sometimes we are confused and sometimes we need time and sometimes we try both it's like here no here and what do you think and sometimes it's not my decision as the actors like I mean we work together as a big team from the moment we are two we allow everyone to communicate and to be open because we are discussing everything so suddenly the atmosphere is different because the actors they know he thinks one thing, I think another they can have their own thoughts it's allowed to think differently and the whole movie is about thinking differently and I think that's why it's so raw about ourselves the movie becomes a conversation because it's a conversation between the two of you so then it spreads to everybody else We're different.

1:03:01We can talk. He has to pass through our filters. Everything. I like this. I don't like this. So the ending is more... It's decided. It's a dialogue. It's not like the director is the only audience of a movie. And it's like, okay, I'm God. So when you've done a scene and the first AD says, okay, are we done? Can we move on? Both of you have to say yes. It's not one person gets to say it. And you're standing next to each other. Sometimes Javi gets frustrated. I always say no. And it's when Javi says, enough. He's like, we are done with this day. Let's go home. I'm like, no, no, no, one more shake.

1:03:40And he would say, Javi, you got it. Leave it. Let it go. They dragged me out of set. And he would be crying. I would cry all the way to the car until I sleep. And then tomorrow is a new day. It was my chance to shine. And I was like, OK, the day was over. Bye. The day is over. Have dinner. And sometimes in the shooting, like twice per project, I will be like, oh, we need to do it again, again and again. And I will be obsessed. But it's Jing and Yang. It's always Yang and Yang. Compensating. Yeah, that's exactly it. So to drill down on one, the bombing sequence that I was talking about earlier, just the enormity of a scene like that.

1:04:20And you were saying before that on the scene, no one can see the actors. They are in their own space. how do you pull that off on a scale like that where you've got so many moving pieces the camera's got to move, the production bombs have to go off how do you still make that a space where actors can do what they need to do the way you want them to? First of all we were like how are we going to do this we need to bomb a town we want to make it harsh we want to make it like real like war movies like you know come and see it has to be real and we're like, okay, do we build a set and then destroy it?

1:04:57We don't have money for that. Do we go to little towns, beautiful towns in Cantabria? Let's go. And I'm like, I can't bomb this with a lady living in this house next to you. What am I going to do? I'm going to destroy everything. So one day we said, why don't we go to an abandoned town with two houses, like two houses and then we rebuild, like, reconstruct the parts that are missing in order to destroy them. And I was like, okay, we can do that. That's easy. We're going to have... Easy. Easy. It's the easiest of the solutions. Of all the bad options. And with the budget. And then let's get people there.

1:05:39Let's get all the bombs. And let's... We talk to them, okay, there's going to be a bombing. You don't know what the bomb is. you just know you have to run for your life. So that's the way you make it as real as possible. People were like, it was like a game for them. But it felt real. And then the bomb was there and they were like, oh my God, and they ran that way. So it was creative solutions all the time. But always actor-focused and we want to surprise them. and we taught them how to die all of them with a choreographer they were like how do you do it? they were like weeks training how to fall down and it was like a week of shooting and when I am obsessed about that that you're asking I always say to myself frame by frame so I know what I have to do in every single frame everything is ready for every frame so I know if I'm doing this the team has to be there that's what I need and so everything will be frame by frame and like exactly chosen so it is a lot of work and our scripts are crazy like they're like collage like with all the cameras the reference, the movies, the tone like crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy because everything is really, we thought about that, it's like my brain will go to everything that's possibly wrong.

1:07:15In every direction, I will be like, oh my God, if I'm doing this, it's not going to be able to do this. That's why I always stress. You know what I'm remembering? All the meetings we had for the bombing. It was like, another bombing meeting. It was like, okay, but what kind of planes are they arriving? Are they Italians? Are they shooting like this? Are they shooting down? Exactly what model of plane was it? How many bombs. How many people of security should be like being aware that no one of the extras will be near the bomb being... But the planes are coming this way, they're going around. Are they five planes, six planes?

1:07:55Are they shooting? It was like crazy. And we're like looking at all the planes of that time. For example, if a bullet hits you, do you fall backwards? Exactly where's the plane? you know? Which plane shot who? We are masters of war now. We can go to war. We know how to bomb a town now. But with 37 tools. You gotta go back in time. It's an old-fashioned war, but we can command it. Did you ever think you'd be those kinds of filmmakers? You think about James Cameron. You think he just lives for that kind of logistical detail. Is that what you thought you would be doing as filmmakers? Or was that a new thing for you?

1:08:39We are not afraid of challenges at all. I like them. And in order to be able to get obsessed about a project, it has to be a big challenge. If it's easy for me, I will be like... I was the kid that was not studying at school. I was, oh my God, I will do the test. It will be okay. And I was thinking about other things. If it's not a challenge, I won't be paying attention. So I think we are always looking for that. bigger, different and that's why I love doing this movie it was such a challenge every single day for the 12 shootings natural locations, under the rain in the snow, in the sea nights it was very very very very very difficult and I loved it because every single day you will be like super focused I have to do this, this, this, this, this, exactly and to me that's the passion we have, we want to learn I mean and I cannot learn without a talent.

1:09:43Your teachers in school probably wanted to remind you of that too. We're about to run out of time and I'm going to ask a big question to end it, I think. But I think it's valuable. So this is obviously an LGBTQ plus story. You're revisiting history in that way. But I think there's something queer about the way the story is made. There is the ambition of it and the differences of it. And I wonder how you guys think about that. that it's not just saying there were gay soldiers in this war, but there's a queer lens to put on history that this is doing differently. How do you think of that? The other day a director said to me, well, I have a lesbian character.

1:10:19I make queer cinema. And I'm like, no. That's a bold thing to say to directors of La Bola Negra. You get it wrong. There's a queer spirit in the movie. and I think what queer directors we have in common is we don't see genre as a binary way. Genre meaning movie genres. So every director, every author I like, Pedro, in every dramatic situation, he would find a moment of comedy, of light. So it's like you bend genre, you play with it, and you get this mix of, you know, I think LGBTQ plus community I used to collage to get from everywhere since we're really like pushed away we just take the rest that were given to us to make our own gone and I think what we make with movies and yeah it's a queer soul when it's like a mix of things you love I think queer people are focused on like we like the things we like.

1:11:33We love things. We love our pop stars. We love our movies. We love our music. And we're in contact with the things we like. And yeah, I think that's the queer artists I like. They show on the screen things they love. I mean, the passion driving this film I think is pretty evident from the stories that you're telling and on the screen. If you're going to make room for Penelope Cruz to have a showstopper musical number in the middle of your movie, that's passion in the middle of that too. We have two musical numbers. Thank you so much for being here. Everyone, please go see LaBelle and Agra tomorrow.

1:12:06You will look forward to it. Thank you all.

1:12:14That does it for this week's podcast. We'll be back. Next week is award season officially. What a great time to do all this. In the meantime, this podcast is edited by Brett Fox and produced by Brett Fox and me. Our theme music is by Dave Gonzalez. Thanks as ever to Christopher Rosen. And thanks to everyone at the TIFF market and Netflix for making it possible to have my live on stage conversation with Los Javis. It really was such a treat. You can subscribe to the Prestige Junkie newsletter at TheAnkler.com. Subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, where you should be watching the video versions of this if you're not already.

1:12:47And you can find us also anywhere else to get your podcasts. We will see you next week.