CEO of Unilever Prestige, on Building Brands That Last with MC Gasco-Buisson

18:49Natasha:Yeah, what did you learn? Oh, how much I learned. A lot of it was not to do.

18:55MC Gasco-Buisson:But I also learned, and I'll be happy to tell you anytime about the things that I learned about not to do. But one of the things I learned was that when, you know, when I set my head up to something, even if I don't know anything about it, I can figure it out. So it was really affirming. But we also learned a lot around, you know, I always, probably because I grew up in a big organization like P &G, I always focused so much on the product. and making sure the product was great, I should have started with the go-to-market instead.

19:28Natasha:Yeah.

19:28MC Gasco-Buisson:And looking back now, all those years later, that's like obvious, right? But it wasn't obvious to me at that time. And on top of that, we were working on a category that we were not experts at because, of course, we didn't want to do anything that was conflicting with P &G. So two learnings there. One, start with the go-to-market. it and second make sure that you are working on something that you know that you really know because I think that's when you have the big the founder has the biggest power actually I think one of the people in your podcast were talking about that recently like do what you love yeah and what

20:05Natasha:you know and I think it's spot on advice frankly yeah yeah interesting it reminds me I spoke to someone yesterday I spoke to a man yesterday who was working on a female healthcare startup just thinking about ideas and I was like I don't know I I'm not sure I'd be there but it's just harder I yeah it's it is it's just harder um I so what you just talked about in terms of focus on the go-to-market it it strikes me that when you moved from like more FMCG or CPG world of PNG to something like Pandora and something more about lifestyle, that's almost the difference. Like, that's a big difference. Like, talk to me about, you know, was there a culture shock?

20:53Or how do you think about moving from something that's much more about product

20:59Natasha:to something more lifestyle and aspiration and quality, et cetera?

21:06MC Gasco-Buisson:You know, I actually, somebody asked me that recently, And it's funny because I didn't find it a difficult move.

21:12Natasha:Yeah.

21:14MC Gasco-Buisson:Perhaps because I have been loving, watching, wearing, and shopping for jewelry my whole life. I love it. Like beauty. Yeah. But jewelry, like if you were to look, I mean, I'm wearing like 50 ,000 bracelets. My mother used to call me Lolita when I was young because I had so many bracelets. So I've become a bit more reduced. But I'm passionate about jewelry, like you said, like beauty.

21:45Natasha:So I could connect. But from a business standpoint, I had to, of course, I had to step back and learn.

21:51MC Gasco-Buisson:I remember the biggest areas where I realized I quickly had to learn were, one, Pandora mostly has its own retail.

21:58Natasha:So it's end-to-end.

21:59MC Gasco-Buisson:And that's actually what attracted me to it is I had never worked in a company that had its own go-to market, right? So that was fascinating learning for me. It had its own retail. The second one was, yeah, it was a different category. So even though I love jewelry as a consumer, I didn't know jewelry as a manufacturer or as a marketeer of it. So I had to learn those things. And then culturally, the company is based in Copenhagen. So I've never worked in the Nordics. I've never worked in Copenhagen. So I had to learn the culture as well. So there was a lot of learning. But for me, one of my strengths, Natasha, probably from my upbringing, is I'm quite adaptable.

22:34MC Gasco-Buisson:I've moved a lot in my life as a child, as an adult, and I get a thrill out of change. Change is fun for me. So when I encountered that, when I had to learn all these things, that was for me fun. So what you like, you tend to learn to do, right? So I would say that the change wasn't as difficult. What was more difficult for me, surprise, surprise, is that growing up in P &G and then at Unilever, And I always, because I went to Unilever before I went to Pandora, right? So P &G, the Unilever, I was more used to marketing being at the center of the business strategy.

23:16Natasha:Yeah.

23:17MC Gasco-Buisson:And at Pandora, historically, marketing was not at the center of the business strategy, either retail or design where. Marketing was almost a support function. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was a big change. And why the role was interesting to me, however, was because the CEO who hired me, Alexander LASIK, he was the CEO at the time, he came from P &G and Racket. So he understood the role of marketing. And so I said, OK, the company may see the role of marketing differently than I do, but at least the CEO gets it. So I'm going to be able to impact beyond just marketing. I mean, when I showed up there, some people literally said, oh, you guys are the pretty picture people.

24:01Natasha:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:02MC Gasco-Buisson:I was like, oh, just wait and see. I'm going to show you what we're about.

24:05Natasha:Yeah. Everything is media. Everything is media.

24:09MC Gasco-Buisson:Nothing like a challenge, guys. Nothing like a challenge.

24:12Natasha:Yeah. No, amazing. So I'm curious. I mean, for me, what's interesting about someone like P &G is that I almost think of them as more product focused than marketing. And I know that sounds crazy, but like Unilever is more marketing to me. But like now that you're moving into more kind of luxury prestige space, there is more less, you know, rational product differentiation. Like, how do you think about the transition or moving into those kind of more lifestyle kind of marketing roles? And what needs to change? Or does it need to change? Maybe the same principles are like, how do you market a brand in the luxury space versus the CPG space?

25:05MC Gasco-Buisson:Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, I think your observation around P &G being very product focused is true. It's also a fantastic brand building company. And Unilever, similarly, also another fantastic brand building and product company. I do think that they tend to lean one way or another. I do agree with you that I think Unilever is more naturally inclined to marketing and culture. Where B &G, my experience of it from when I was there, was a bit more leaning towards product. But they both, I think they both do extremely well on both things. But they lean a little different.

25:41Natasha:Yeah.

25:42MC Gasco-Buisson:But most people don't observe that. So I think you're very astute, actually. Yeah.

25:46Natasha:No, I think they're very different approaches. But yeah.

25:49MC Gasco-Buisson:Yeah. But it's very interesting. And I've definitely learned from both, right? Yeah. Luxury. So my first prestige experience was when I went to Prestige Fragrances. in P &G many years ago. This is right before I met you, the role I had in Geneva before we met. And actually, you can see the range, right? I've sold dandruff shampoo, 50-cent barrel soap, Prestige fragrances. I did ventures with you from zero to nothing. And then I'm doing this. So really building a range of experiences. But back to your question about what sticks. So when I first encountered Prestige, one of the biggest ahas that I had was that now emotion played a much bigger role.

26:34MC Gasco-Buisson:So we know from neuroscience that emotion plays a huge role in all decisions we make, right? We think we're more rational than we are. And, you know, there's loads of economists that have written on this. Daniel Kahneman and many of them that we know that. But what I saw was that at the prestige world, that was even on steroids. That was even more so because the value equation is not just driven by do you perform, do you do what you say, but do you make me feel that I belong to a certain identity? There's a lot more identity in fragrances than there may be in a, you know, that there is in a 50 cent barrel soap, okay?

27:17MC Gasco-Buisson:And that's just by the nature of the product and how we use it and everything else. So I learned that importance, therefore, the importance of storytelling and brilliant execution, the attention to detail. I remember I used to be in shock at my team in Fragrances. They would spend hours retouching one image, but hours and hours and hours to a level that I had not really encountered before. So I learned the emotional storytelling executional excellence. But what I also learned is that a lot of the fundamentals still matter. So are you building a brand that has longevity and means something, or are you just building a product?

28:00MC Gasco-Buisson:Are you building a, are you attracting people to a product that they are not only going to buy, but love and come back to and create a repeat loop? Or are you just acquiring people and licking them out endlessly? Because it all matters, right? So are you innovating in a way that really makes a difference and adds value to the category that you're in? Or you're just adding noise? Those things are fundamental, and they are true in all the businesses that I've been in. Let it be jewelry. Let it be soap. Let it be fragrances. Let it be lipstick or, you know, hair treatments. So a lot of the fundamentals that Unilever and P &G and companies like those two master are still really relevant.

28:46MC Gasco-Buisson:But there's just a whole other level of value in the performance expectation, in the sensorial expectation, and in the storytelling that prestige must master that, you know, simply because you are paying more for this. So it needs to perform at a higher level in every kind of sense of the equation. so efficacy but also experience and how I feel by using this product so but honestly I'd say that it's easier to go from in my opinion easier to go from CPG to prestige than the other way around

29:19Natasha:that would be my experience interesting I'm sure luxury people would would disagree but

29:24MC Gasco-Buisson:yeah I'm sure they would and I will tell you and the one caveat where they would be right is that there are some people just cannot do it.

29:33Natasha:Yeah. Why do they do this? What don't they have?

29:35MC Gasco-Buisson:I mean, I hate to say that because I'm a believer in human spirit and the humans can do anything they want, right? But if you are not appreciative of the art of storytelling and if you don't appreciate that cerulean blue is different than indigo, than teal, you know, you got to really appreciate those things because that is important in prestige and in luxury, or just the way something sounds when you open it, or just the depth of story and heritage and history and craftsmanship. If you don't have appreciation for that, then you can't make that move. But what I'm saying is if you're a person who can appreciate those things, I think it's easier to move from CPG to luxury than the other way around, because later in life, if you haven't learned some of those foundations, it's really hard.

30:27Natasha:But that's my opinion. I'm sure lots of people disagree with me. I think that's right. It's interesting thinking, is it just storytelling? But yeah, I'd love to hear some of those, a quick thing on what are the foundations that you think makes a good brand or good storytelling? Well, a good brand, at the end of the day, I think has to have a reason to exist that resonates at a human level, right?

30:54MC Gasco-Buisson:And ideally, that is universal. Because when I talk about a good brand, I'm talking about brands that have the right to scale, okay? I'm not talking about a brand that is okay at 100 million forever. I'm talking it's my world. I want brands that scale, right? So with my lens, it has to have a reason to exist, a DNA that is making an impact at a human level. It could be an emotional impact or it could be a performance impact. So if you look at K-18, for example.

31:21Natasha:Yeah, amazing.

31:24MC Gasco-Buisson:I mean, I owe my healthy hair to K-18. The mask is an incredible, incredible product. And that's just the beginning of what they do. They're amazing products. But that's it for me, my relationship with K18 is, oh, my God, you really save my hair. You make my hair like new, which is what they promised me. And I love this brand for that. On the other hand, we also have the brand Tatcha. Tatcha has incredible products. But what I can't resist is the way I feel. Yeah. When I do my nightly ritual with the essence.

32:01Natasha:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:01MC Gasco-Buisson:And the rice wash and then the essence and the dewy cream. I mean, the feeling I get, I literally feel like I'm self-caring. And I'm nurturing my skin, but I'm also nurturing myself. And you can see those two relationships are quite, quite different. But they both connect with me in a deep level, and they add value to my life. So I think the brand has to do that. I have to be differentiated. So otherwise you get lost in a sea of new. There's always new stuff coming. So I still have a differentiated point of view. Those are two fundamental things. And then, you know, the game of brand building is a daily game.

32:41MC Gasco-Buisson:It is like you got to have an organization that just will not stop innovating and learning and growing. Because how we go to market, how we reach customers is changing constantly.

32:55Natasha:Yeah.

32:56MC Gasco-Buisson:Right? The standards of luxury are changing. The channels are changing. So you've got to have a real strong DNA, real, you know, consumer value proposition. You need to deliver that. And then you need to constantly grow, learn, and adapt to the environment that you're in. And then we could go on and many other things that you have to do as part of that. But I think it's foundational that the brand has those elements and that the team has that, you know, agility and ability to navigate what is a very, very dynamic place.

33:26Natasha:Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's a crazy landscape. like just thinking about ignoring AI for a second, you know, I do think there are more and more kind of disposable brands and products, like they're just there, they're not even meant to be that. They're just like, especially in beauty, you know, beauty, probably one of the most noisy, you know, things into niche trends and niche segments. And then, you know, some, you know, something's just drop shipped made for kind of tiktok it's it's a crazy environment so having that kind of anchor of who you are i think is is important how do you think um brands that are starting out should think about creating that brand you know that the fundamental like thing that's going to help it stay, have longevity versus be a disposable brand?

34:30MC Gasco-Buisson:I mean, I think nobody sets out to build a disposable brand, but it does happen. I mean, it does happen that people build brands that are just, they don't have enough depth to withstand the pressure of the categories. I would say it goes back to why are you building this brand in the first place. Are you building this brand because you happen to, you want to work for yourself and, you know, you like, you know, pink and blue and nice fragrances and that's, and you can't, you can't afford to do it. You can get money either from yourself, your parents or some VC. That's not a good enough reason. You know, to build a brand that lasts, it has to meet a need or a desire that is not being met already in a better way.

35:24MC Gasco-Buisson:So it starts to me, why are you building it? Some of the best brands are built from the founder feeling a need. There's something is missing in the market that I think could make a difference for people like me or for people like my mother or my friend. So it needs to start from the right reason for existing. And, you know, we hear the story of Dermalogica. I don't know if you ever heard the story of Jane, the founder of Dermalogica. It's one of the most exceptional women I know. And Jane built Dermalogica because she was a skin therapist and she was committed to empowering skin therapists in the U.S.

36:03MC Gasco-Buisson:to have their own business. So she started training them. And then she realized, oh, they need product to be able to have their business. That why is so big and so impactful that this brand is thriving and loved all those years later. And she built a brand based on values of how do we support this community and Dermalogica remains a leader in supporting, you know, skin therapists globally. That's a big why, you know, and we could tell you the stories of all the founders that I have the privilege of working with. That's a big why. That's why she did that. And so I think that's the beginning, I would say.

36:42MC Gasco-Buisson:Really, really interrogate yourself on why you're doing it and make sure you attach yourself to something that. So in a way, I tell you, I did the same mistake when I started my other company. I did it because I wanted to start a business. And I saw a need, to be honest. I saw a need. But I didn't dig enough to make sure that what I was doing was a need that I could meet better. Funny. Right? And there was many, many reasons. I learned a lot of lessons from that. But I really think it's important to make sure that the need that you are going to meet is truly something you can do better than the other options already out there.

37:16MC Gasco-Buisson:Otherwise, it's going to be an uphill battle, you know?

37:18Natasha:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just quickly, and we don't need to spend too long because I'm going to go on to the – we're already running out of time. I am curious. So I'm thinking a lot about AI at the moment, partly because I have a big presentation to give in a few weeks in Seattle. But yeah, I'm curious how you're thinking about AI and its use in marketing. I think in business, like there are so many obvious great uses. How are you thinking about it in terms of how do you think it will impact how consumers shop or how retail works?

38:03MC Gasco-Buisson:I mean, I think everybody says this, but it's impacting everything. If you think about the way consumers shop. So I really now search for everything on Claude or Charged EBT, okay, or one of them. We have several in the company that we use them. But I'm always now researching there. And I am very happy to shop straight from there. Because by the time I click that link, I've already decided this is right. So it saves me a ton of time. And I, you know, I trusted enough because it starts to know me. So I think it's definitely disrupting that in a big way. And we see it. It's still emerging, the amount of conversion happening.

38:46MC Gasco-Buisson:But it's going to really, I believe it's going to take off because it makes life better for us. Talk about why you launched something. It makes life better for a certain consumer. So that's what is going to disrupt that massively already is. In terms of business, there's so many places, you know, supply chain inventory, so planning, marketing, creativity, testing, life testing, you know, research, how we do research, how do we edit for different languages. It's changing all of that. So I fundamentally think that the trick is going to be like any big technology is to make sure that you apply it to something that matters, that you're solving a problem that matters to you, that is really central to your strategy versus just like throwing it at everything.

39:29MC Gasco-Buisson:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's the danger is that we get excited about it, we start throwing it at everything, and then it just creates distraction and noise. What we want to do is say, okay, which big problem can this technology help us solve?

39:41Natasha:Yeah.

39:41MC Gasco-Buisson:And then we go after that. So we're focusing it right now in a couple specific areas for that reason. But hey, it's early days. We're all learning, right? Yeah.

39:51Natasha:I think it's a bit like the need for the brand in the first place, isn't it? It's like, can you use it to actually make it a process better or to help a consumer experience it? I mean, I think, yeah, versus just doing something because you can.

40:10MC Gasco-Buisson:Yes, exactly. Okay.

40:12Natasha:All right. Last, we're going to go into quickfire questions. I've missed out hundreds, hundreds of questions I had written down for you. Very overly optimistic. What would be your desert island beauty product?

40:33MC Gasco-Buisson:Desert island beauty product. So if I'm stuck in a desert island.

40:37Natasha:Yeah. What's the one thing that you have?

40:39MC Gasco-Buisson:It would be hourglass concealer.

40:46MC Gasco-Buisson:Quickly followed by the mask from K18, but it's hourglass concealer.

40:52Natasha:That's amazing. Amazing. Okay. Best career advice, worst career advice you've ever had? The best or the worst? Both.

41:03MC Gasco-Buisson:The best and the worst. Yeah. Wow, the best. I've got so many incredible pieces. Okay, one, it's a guy that I don't know if you ever came across, but he was my general manager when I was in LA. He said to me, and it's actually, I think it comes from Mario Angelo or one of the poets, the big poets. He said to me, people don't remember what you said. They don't remember what you did. They remember how you made them feel. That really has altered the flavor of my leadership. and how I lead. So that I think is the best. In terms of the worst,

41:45MC Gasco-Buisson:worst career advice. You know, this is one that I am very, very torn about. But I will still use it as an example. Somebody told me, set low expectations so that you can over-deliver. And I know that that person benefited from doing that. So the advice was given to me in good spirit. And there is some truth to it. You have to carefully manage expectations. But if you consistently are focused on lowering the expectations, you lower your own expectations and those of your team. And I do not think that's the way to live.

42:28Natasha:Yeah. Oh, my God. It sounds the anti-MC to me. Sort of, yeah.

42:33MC Gasco-Buisson:But I do know that there was some good intention because if you don't manage expectations, you can end up in a situation where people don't give you the time to do what you need to do. You know, because they don't understand that maybe instead of taking six months, it's going to take a year. So you do have to manage expectations, but I don't believe it's about lowering expectations just so that you can always look good. I don't think that works.

42:56Natasha:Is there anything that you're trying to work on and get better at? I mean, yes.

43:04MC Gasco-Buisson:The obvious one is I, like most people my age at this point, you always feel like, wow, marketing is moving so fast. AI is coming. How do I keep up with this? So I'm trying to become better at staying connected to key things that matter while still managing my job, my family, my, you know, all my health, all of that. So trying to get better at figuring out what are the one or two things that I need to stay on top of and not worry about the others because I can't keep up with everything. You know, I can't spend the whole weekend reading business like I used to be for my child. You know, so that's one.

43:45MC Gasco-Buisson:And then the other one is I have learned as I get into more senior roles that there is something in my approach which I'm extremely adaptable and collaborative. I like to collaborate. I like to adapt to things. There are times when you need to be a bit unreasonable and say no. That's not going to work. Yeah. And obviously, I can do that in many, many, many places. But there is a couple of situations where that has been harder for me. And yeah, and I'm really building that muscle in the last few years, I would say. So, yeah.

44:25Natasha:I guess especially as you move into a CEO role.

44:28MC Gasco-Buisson:Yes.

44:29Natasha:That's where actually saying no probably becomes even more important.

44:34MC Gasco-Buisson:Yeah, and I'm talking, you know, you say no a million times a day in things. But there are some things that the no is a big no. It's a strategic no. When that way, we're not going that way. And these are much more difficult conversations. And I think I've been practicing that over the last few years and it does get easier with practice.

44:58Natasha:What's the biggest misconception you think there is about marketing luxury? That only people who grew up in it can do it? Yeah, ex-PNG personal Chanel now as well. It's Unilever. Oh, it's Unilever. Ex-Unilever. Okay. Yes.

45:18MC Gasco-Buisson:Lina, Unilever through and through, and we're very, very proud of her.

45:22Natasha:I love that. I love that. Yeah. Let me know if you can introduce me to see if I can interview her. I'm sure she gets one or two requests. I'm sure she's being asked a lot. Anything that you wish you'd learned earlier in your career? I mean, yes. Like the whole thing with the startup.

45:46MC Gasco-Buisson:So maybe I would have been able to scale it. Yes, I think that the importance of having your market defined and how you're going to reach your customer in a cost-effective manner, that would have saved me some pain. But of course, you know, that was, that needed to, you know, sometimes we have to go through these things. Like, that's the other thing is you have to go through this micro failure so that you can have the big win. So that was a micro failure. And here we go. I have no regrets, but I had to go through that. So that was one. What else would I like to learn earlier in my career? You know, I would say this may sound weird, but a bit more spending more time promoting what I do.

46:32MC Gasco-Buisson:I am such an engineer on this, Natasha. Like I was telling you last year, I didn't want to talk to anybody about anything. I had my head down. And I'm like, until the business is a double-digit growth, I don't want to look at anything. I just want to do this. And what happens is that everybody around you is doing all the promotion tours. And I think there's a balance. And, you know, I'm never going to be a self-promoter. It's not who I am. I'm never going to do it. It's counter. I believe in substance. but at some point it is important also because you attract talent so me doing these kind of things is part of the role as well so so balancing those two things better I think probably would serve me well but hey here we are I'm doing it here I'm talking to you okay amazing I'm so

47:16Natasha:grateful and we've got the last question um all right who or what are you professionally jealous of?

47:25MC Gasco-Buisson:So it wasn't hard to think of this, Natasha, I'll tell you, because I am most jealous in a positive way of founders who have built a brand that has lasting power and that we love. And I tell you, I am so lucky. I work with several of those founders. I mentioned Jane earlier, Vicky from Tatcha, Carissa from Hourglass, Subin from K18, Paula from Paula's Choice. I mean, those are the people that for me are the ultimate heroes. They build something that matters, that lasts, that makes us happy and that they themselves love. And so there's a bit of a founder in me that is still unfulfilled. Do you think you'll ever do something?

48:13MC Gasco-Buisson:it would have to be after I stepped down from these careers you know this kind of job because these jobs are all consuming but you know we're living long so maybe I'll be the oldest 75 year old founder

48:25Natasha:love it I'm looking forward to it thank you so much for your time I think there's so much so much in our conversation that I think people can learn from I think it's a masterclass in creating a career that builds and you've figured out what you need, what you want, what you want to learn and how to get there. And I think it's so inspiring, you know, making sure that you actually start learning many parts of the business, being open and empathetic and strategic. yeah and I'm looking forward to seeing your late stage founding idea

49:16MC Gasco-Buisson:hey maybe you can help me grab the strategy for that I remember your superpowers

49:21Natasha:anytime anytime all right we've run out of time so thank you so much to anyone listening watching please do share subscribe you can find the professional jealousy podcast wherever you get podcasts get in touch if you have any questions feedback or anyone that you would like featured thank you