Can Crypto Provide Universal Basic Equity?

24:36They didn't buy a graphic card so they can sort of have a physical benefit from it. They bought this expensive graphic card so they could have a virtual experience. So they could immerse their mind in something that was really powerful, that was more valuable to them. And then, of course, because of the GPUs, and because of that, we had initially the mining and blockchain, and then afterwards, AI, right? So gaming is the foundation for, really, I think, many of these fastest growing industries. And therefore, to us, it would not be at all a surprise that gaming is going to be what's driving Web3.

25:09Also, I think the gaming attitude and the fact that everybody who's young grew up on gaming dictates how they operate online, how they even mean coins. You know, it becomes a game. It's a gamification of the world, which is not good or bad. It just is because that's how they grow. I mean, the thing that we often say also is that, I mean, life is a game, right? And, you know, I think for many people, you could argue that's just a badly designed game for them. And I think one of the wonderful things about what we can do about Web3 and blockchain is that we can actually help design, you know, whether it's through DAOs or whether it's through this, you know, that differentiation with what we'd hope to see for some kind of equity share and universal basic equity, all sort of stakeholder, shareholder capitalism, stakeholder capitalism perspective in Web3 is sort of design life in a better way.

25:57And by the way, that is what society has been trying to do for, you know, centuries and centuries, right? Through political innovation, right? And change, right? Which is, you know, the kind of, I mean, the fact that we're sitting on a broadly democratic framework that is hundreds of years old, if you think about it, in its principles, is on one hand amazing, both amazing and a little ridiculous, right? I mean, shouldn't we have come up with some better democratic system that is more inclusive of the people in this day and age, right? And yet here we are. And part of the reason, I think, is because it's dangerous to innovate on political systems, right?

26:36If it goes wrong, as we have seen elsewhere around the world, you know, And by the way, that's what economists do to our nations, where they basically play around with economic systems, whether it's abandoning the national currencies like Argentina, or whether it's doing QA, whatever it is, whether you follow Friedman or Keynes, whatever system you are, these are still ideas. These aren't science. These aren't immutable things that are proven by one form or the other. They're theories based on ideas. And when you have the wrong theory, you completely screw things up, which is one of the reasons why I think democratic institutions have difficulty in innovating in physical space because it's dangerous.

27:17But I think this is where DAOs are interesting because with DAOs, you can start experimenting at the pace of technology. So we could launch hundreds of DAOs, thousands of DAOs, and then we can learn which ones are the best governance systems with a much lower cost than if we started experimenting on our country, right? I mean, that would be very dramatic if it went wrong. We're going to take another quick break to hear a word from our partners.

28:06or a week from June 3rd through June 9th, with over 150 side events that will make for unparalleled networking opportunities. Visit www.realvision.com forward slash super AI for 20 % off tickets with the code realvision or click below. I don't think many people have got DAOs right yet, if I'm honest about it. I think it's interesting, but I think people have struggled. They've struggled with... how to create direction, how to not end up with interest. You know, I watched the, with great, you know, I watched very closely the ApeDAO, which I know you're on the foundation of, right? I was, yes. You were, and I almost joined it for a while.

28:51And it did scare me a little bit because of how difficult it is. And unless you get the structures right, it's tricky. It's tricky to manage community interests plus project interests, keep focus without being distracted. Have you seen good examples of that? I mean, first of all, I don't think, first of all, I do think ApeCoin is an example of a DAO that works quite well. And the reason why I think it works quite well is because it has a somewhat chaotic but democratic discourse and ideas are flowing and nobody necessarily has to agree with everything. So in other words, a DAO, where everyone agrees on everything all the time, to me is a failure.

29:29Because actually there is no discourse, right? You may as well, you know, have top-down control and give it to a bunch of leaders and run it, right? That's not a DAO. that's a classic hierarchical organization right in fact the successful dows are the ones that are disruptive that are actually um that actually are maybe controversial that that debate ideas that don't agree with each other and that's okay because that's actually how ideas form right and by the way i think this is the unique formula of america because america is probably the only country in the world that it can think of or they safely say we're creative the sort of creative and as of destruction is a thing.

30:05Like you can build something in America, totally destroy an industry and emerge from it stronger through innovation, despite the fact that it is potentially destroying jobs and destroying economies, but creating new ones and survive as a nation and become stronger for it. Almost no other country in the world, I think, can do this. So they try to manage innovation in a very sort of, you know, like holistic and harmonious way. But here's the thing, change and harmony are actually not the same thing. You think about it, right? You choose who you want to be. So this is when people say, let me emulate Silicon Valley, for instance, or let me emulate what was happening in America.

30:41And I remember back in the day, that's what they all tried to do, but they didn't want the changes. They over-regulated because they were afraid of that on one hand. So you actually dampened the effect and then you have Europe. So you have these things where you desire that, but it doesn't come with that. And so to me, I think ApeCoin DAO is a success because it's a$2 billion DAO. But, you know, think about that, right? Two billion dollars of liquidity available for community funding run today by an entirely elected board, an entirely elected working steward group. You know, none of the original people who were involved in the formation of it, including myself, are, you know, we're community members.

31:19I participate in the forums, but I'm not in the special council. I don't have a say other than the tokens I could vote on. You know, we decentralize, by the way, a number of our token holdings to our community, the the Mokaverse, will become essentially like a super PAC. It's a demonstration of a political system. And you are right that, you know, the DAOs, there is no DAO that runs it perfectly. But you know what? I don't think it ever can, because it's an evolution, in the same sense that we can't say there's any democratic system in the world that runs perfectly either. In fact, I would argue a perfectly run democracy might not be democratic after all, right?

31:52So there's a whole element around sort of we have to innovate and make these changes, and there will be progress, and will always reach that point. It's kind of like Bitcoin mining, right? You get to that halving point and it gets better and the next halving point, next halving point, right? You get to a point where, you know, you're slowly innovating to the point and the rate of changes becomes smaller because of the fact that you're getting better at it, but you're never reaching, you know, 100%. I don't think that's possible. We're also human, so it's never going to be perfect, right? It's always going to be messy.

32:22Yes. And it's interesting, as you say, just to see the pace of innovation, people testing ideas, some don't work, some are getting better, somebody learns from it, keeps moving. And crypto time cycles are much shorter than almost any other industry on earth. So you get to go to that iteration. It compresses it, absolutely. And that's really interesting. So spinning on to a different topic, what's the state of NFTs for you right now? Where are you seeing that? I mean, it's been an NFT bear market. There's a bunch of, you know, it was the hot thing of 2021. I mean, I've been buying high-end NFT art in the bear market because I think it has extreme long-term value.

33:03But what are you seeing at a broader perspective in NFTs right now? So first of all, I mean, NFTs is a market. We're currently at a monthly run rate of NFT sales at around$1.6 to$1.7 billion a month. So, you know, I mean, I wouldn't call that too bad when you consider it. I mean, but I think what's changed about the NFT market is it's become more diverse. So the NFT market was very Ethereum focused back in 21. And today it's become much more diverse in terms of renewable ordinals, which by the way, I'm really excited about. Because to me, that is the true introduction of culture into Bitcoin for the first time ever.

33:43Finally. By the way, I also, yeah, finally. And by the way, that's the reason why suddenly Bitcoin miners have another reason to exist and also a more sustainable way for mining to continue because we can't hope for Bitcoin to really be worth millions and millions. I mean, yes, that'd be wonderful. But on the other hand, is that the sustainable path or is there actually an operating reason to do that? And ordinals have represented that in the same way, by the way, that ERC721 has done for Ethereum and all the other systems around. And so then when you mix in Solana and when you mix in basically the other ecosystems, I think, again, NFTs as probably the most direct representation of your stores of culture actually are the ways in which I think the ecosystem will grow fundamentally.

34:28Also, in 22 and 23, during the bear market, many people joined, at least in Asia, joined Web3 because of NFTs. So they joined for the culture. And so that's changed the makeup as well. So you will have noticed, for instance, that back in 21, the majority of your NFT collections are up for sale because everyone's just traded. It was literally the DGN traders game. And that's also because most of the people were in Web3 for the money. But in the NFT collectors of today or the people who hold Virtual Land or Bored Apes or hold Mochaverse or whatever, they're actually now looking at it from a sense of community, from a sense of culture.

35:07and the number of NFTs that are for sale actually are much lower because they're using it for utility. And utility, by the way, doesn't have to be gaming only. It's literally membership, right? You know, one of the powerful things about when you sell - We have a big, I don't know, 10 ,000 people in the Real Vision NFT community of membership, benefits, networking, all of this. Yes, correct. And imagine, you know, here's the thing, and this is about identity, what's so powerful about NFTs. When someone sells their board aid, everyone in the network knows. And they have to go out and literally apologize why they sold it.

35:41Oh, I need to buy a new house. Oh, my grandma's sick. And, you know, maybe it's true. I'm not saying you can't do that. But the fact that they felt compelled to do so means that they are connected to that community emotionally much more than just a trade of a fungible token. And that, by the way, is how nations are built because communities are that too. If I sell my house in my neighborhood, I immigrate to another country, I'm basically saying bye to a certain community. right? I'm leaving them. Whether this is abandonment or whether this is departure or whether whatever it is, or maybe you do it out of spite.

36:13Many people leave countries for all sorts of reasons. But the point is, it's a very public signal. And in Web3, that's amplified, right? Because everyone gets to see it, right? So I think that sort of hyper level of transparency actually creates stronger bonds and community as a result, right? Which is why tokens and NFTs have this incredible sort of power to form capital and community in a way that doesn't exist elsewhere. Because for instance, if someone buys a Louis Vuitton bag or a Birkin bag or something, only the person who bought the bag knows and maybe the person who sold it. The rest of the guys have no idea.

36:47And they don't know who they are and there's no way to build a community. So, you know, I know that we need platforms like social pie platforms to help make it easier to connect with each other in Web3. But in a sense, I think NFTs are a great representation of building the first social networks through basically a blockchain. I mean, one of the interesting ones is, obviously I'm an ape holder and a punk holder and all of this. But if I look at punks, I mean, I think it's 90 % haven't changed hands at all in the last two years. I mean, people thought Bitcoin was incredible, but these are like diamond hands.

37:22I mean, nothing trades. Yes, absolutely. And you wouldn't want to. I mean, again, I go back to the national example. I mean, if you are an American citizen and you love America, then why would you give up your citizenship, even though they tax you a lot or maybe whatever it is? There's many reasons why people might say, I don't want to be an American. But giving up your membership in America as in giving up your passport, it's a big deal. And even if someone offered you a lot of money for it, let's say America was a membership that you could buy yourself into. many people will never sell it because it means something much more to them than just simply the value embedded, right?

38:03And I think that's one way to think about how we think of NFTs because they are, you know, stores of culture. And what is culture? Culture is our identity. And ultimately, humans are social creatures, right? I mean, you know, there are many things that we're not, I mean, if you think about even some of the crazier stuff, like, you know, flat earthers, for instance, or like, you know, all sorts of conspiracy theories around them, right? You know, they get embedded to these communities, you know, probably for all the wrong reasons, who knows. But then they become so connected to them socially that leaving them, even if they know it's not true, is social suicide.

38:38And that's actually more expensive and more difficult than actually, you know, than sort of, you know, anything financially about it, right? And also, I think that in a world where AI agents are going to play a larger and larger role in what we do and how we operate, right? Firstly, universal basic equity is a perfect way of us participating in social groups. And humans, I think, will just end up being social creatures, whether that allows us to earn this universal basic equity concept or help each other out in DAO functions where we do similar-minded things. It feels like the world is going to push us this way anyway towards being more human, but just in a digital space.

39:20I agree. And I think, you know, the one thing when you think about universal basic equity as well, is that at the end, what's most important for us is to prove who we are and to be authentic. Right. And that's what the premium goes to authenticity. Right. And the only way to be authentic in at scale in a digital sense is actually through blockchain. But I mean, that's the reason why we launched Mochaverse and with Mocha ID, because that's a way in which you can have a sovereign identity layer that is yours, in which you can build your reputation. that you can't be taken away. Because think about today in Web2, where's your identity layer?

39:57It's on Google, it's on Facebook, it's on Apple, which they can take away, by the way, right? And then all your identity that you've created is gone, right? All the reputation you've built, all the benefits that you've accrued into your own networks disappear. You know, we have this sort of thesis around, you know, we first started talking about content being the platform. Basically, if you have a bored ape, that's a platform. But we also talked about how, you know, we as end users are platforms of our own, right? I mean, you know, you're obviously a bigger platform in the sense you have many followers, millions of followers and all that kind of stuff on your channel.

40:29But actually even on the micro sets, you know, your mom might have a network of 50 people. She's a platform. You know, how often does she recommend a restaurant? How often does she say this is nice or you should do this, right? She's a platform of her own, right? And what the Web2 platforms have done so well is disintermediate that and take away the value of that recommendation and that sort of value formation into their platforms and then sell it back to us in advertising when we are, in fact, the biggest media platforms of our own. So with Web3, you can now disintermediate this in such a manner where we can literally build micro-platforms, which I think NFTs have demonstrated.

41:06Like you have scalable, just think about that, right? You have scalable NFT communities at scale worth tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars, with really only 2 ,000, 5 ,000, 10 ,000 members. In Web2, that doesn't work. 10 ,000 of anything is nothing. You're not a business, right? But when you take it to the physical world, if you're a restaurant and you have 10 ,000 customers, holy shit, that's a big restaurant, right? I mean, that means you're doing well, right? That's actually how values form. And so we've been taught because of the zero property rights narrative in Web2 that somehow a digital user isn't worth much when in fact the digital user is worth just as much as a physical user in the meta sense, right?

41:47And so Web3 basically enumerates that. And that means we have to own equity in that space, right? Because it's not gonna be possible to own physical land for most people, but they can own virtual equity. And I don't mean that just in the form of land. It could be tokens, it could be NFTs. And it's in the very networks that you help construct and build. And that to me is how you build a fairer world and a more inclusive one. And you know, when you think about the economic growth that we've seen, really the balancing, the growth of the middle class is a evolution that really only happened in recent history, post-World War II, right?

42:20And in the last 20 years, it sort of fell off a cliff. Most of society actually never experienced this sort of more fairer growth, right? It didn't happen in the Middle Ages. It didn't happen in the 17th or 18th century, right? Or times before. So it's a recent phenomenon and we kind of tilted back into this sort of, you know, one percentile. And I think to me, this is where Web3 comes in. It's kind of like I view technology as the antidote of the problems we create, right? And so Web3 and the stakeholder capitalist way in which we can all participate with universal basic equity is now a way in which we redraw, but in a bloodless way, a new order in which we're able to basically participate and it gives more balance because we now all not just have hope, but we also own a piece in the future networks that we help construct.

43:06And I think to me, that is the big hope. With AI, if AI generates all this value, wonderful. But where does this value get distributed? To the owners of that AI, which you can tokenize. So when you go around the world and you speak to policymakers in countries, how much of this do they get? How much of it is a threat? How much of it they're trying to embrace? Where's your, I know everybody's different, different countries, different phases, But I'd just love to take your pulse on where the hell we are in that barrier, because that's the big barrier. And it's not just the standard regulation stuff.

43:42It's a mindset shift. So I would say, broadly speaking, funnily enough, I think Asia is on the, let's say, regulatory and governmental side is ahead. And I think part of the reason why they're ahead comes from a few reasons. One, they appreciate capitalism as a population. because just think about it. It hasn't got a dirty word over there while it got tainted everywhere else. No, it's not a tainted word. But the reason why is because we still know a time when capitalism and property rights did not exist. I mean, China did, after all, lift what's, I don't know, four or five, 600 million people out of poverty from a regime that had no property rights to one in living memory.

44:24My parents remembered that time, for instance, right? But South Korea had a GDP in the 80s that was lower than North Korea. Just think about that, right? And now South Korea is the 12th or 13th largest GDP in the world, right? So we all remember what that was like. And so when you see these opportunities, like for instance, why is Philippines and Southeast Asia so embracing of Web3 Gaming? Because actually they come from a world in which they didn't have anything, in which they didn't have property rights. And now they see the benefits of this and they'll embrace it. And I think the reason why this is resisted, more so in the West, particularly in America, ironically enough, is because I think we take in America property rights for granted and the ownership principles for granted.

45:09We don't, you know, we take democracy for granted because if we didn't, we wouldn't have barely 51 % turnout, right? If it was really that important for us, we'd be all go voting, right? But no, right? We don't appreciate it because we think it's helpless or hopeless or we don't value it as we take it for granted, right? So I think that's one of the narratives that's different about, say, Asia and broadly the West. But I think the other one also is that, you know, there is a real urgency, a sense of urgency to sort of break away from the, I guess, let's call it American digital hegemony that exists, right?

45:42When you think about Europe, even as an example, I will argue that Europe is completely digitally colonized by, you know, basically fact, right? You know, Facebook, Apple, Google, you know, or Meta or whatever you want to call it. I mean, it was only like a few months ago when Facebook basically, or Meta as they call it now, basically sort of deplatformed Canadian news companies because, you know, Canada wanted to sort of charge of tax. The fact that a private institution that sits in a democratic country ostensibly can actually censor and mute, you know, democratic media of a democratic nation is insane.

46:21and here we are. And by the way, that threat is very visible to the rest of the world. So if you're an Asian country, if you're a country in the Middle East or whatever, you look at that and you go, wait, I don't want that. So that's one of the reasons why there's been also a big push. So both including China and has put out a Web3 policy paper. Hong Kong has been very forward on Web3. The Japanese prime minister has made Web3 in the metaverse. One of his national agendas, right? Because they all also recognize that essentially they can no longer be in this kind of world, right? Outside of broader other themes like de-dollarization, obviously, is another macro theme.

46:56But it comes down to the same thing, to the sovereignty. And the other big one, I mean, people haven't really picked up how big this was, but the Russia-Ukraine, we get it. You can penalize Russia all you want in all the ways you want. Firstly, taking away the reserves meant that your dollar has less value than my dollar, okay? That did not go unnoticed in the Middle East or China. But the big one was the abandonment of property rights and taking all of the yachts from a bunch of people without due process. Not one person has gone to court. Now, there could be bad guys, or there could be good guys.

47:34Nobody knows because not one of them has gone to court for anything. And that changes the balance. So when you're in the Middle East and you've spent a lot of time there now, are you picking up that there's a sense of embracing this, that it gives some sort of neutrality within this global system? And at the end of the day, I think, you know, Middle East, you know, we recently announced a partnership, you know, with Neom. And also, you know, actually literally just a couple of weeks ago, we did an announcement with PAST, which is basically, you know, the Saudi sort of, I guess, science and research center to open up a Web3 hub with their facilities in Riyadh.

48:15So it's not just obviously UAE and Dubai, and of course, Turkey that are sort of, you know, big in Web3, you know, even Saudi, which I kind of view as sort of like the China of the Middle East, because of its sort of influence and power in the region, is now looking at Web3 and blockchain as a really, really important driver for growth, right? And you can, by the way, also see geopolitically where that's changing. Because, you know, when you go online and search, as you can see, you know, Saudi is technically, and still is, a U.S. ally. But they're also closing up to China, right? They're doing partnerships and deals with them.

48:46And a big part of that is to have a form of independence, to be sort of, you know, and again, this is, I guess, what every, you know, from a national sense, you want sovereignty, you want freedom, and you want to have the liberty to make the decisions that are in your national interest, which are, in most cases, in the interest of your people, right? I think this idea that my culture is imposed on you, right? Whether this is American culture or whatever culture, is not something that works everywhere around the world. And I think people have said, you know what, that doesn't necessarily work for us.

49:17Maybe I'll take certain elements, but I can't take all of that because it doesn't work for where I am right now. And I think this is it. And then we go down, by the way, from a national level to the individual level. It's the same thing. You know, what do we as individuals want? We still want our freedoms. We want our liberties. We want our sovereignty at the end of the day, right? And so how do we safeguard that? Best way to safeguard that is, you know, a form of decentralization. I think the ones who understand that best are the ones who are deepest in the space. Yeah, I think that makes total sense.

49:47Right, final question for you is, We talked about it beforehand. I mean, we could keep talking for hours because there's lots I want to talk to you about, but education. We've talked about that a bit in the past. So Web3 and education. What's in your head there? And what are you seeing? Well, first of all, I think education is probably one of the most important things we as an industry can do to put it forward. I think you said it quite well in one of your channels, I think, you know, when crypto was coming back and emerging, you basically went and you said, don't fuck it up, right? That's my T-shirt.

50:17There we go. Don't fuck this up, right? And to me, one of the areas in which we need to focus our time on is education. Because the lifeblood of any society starts from training, from understanding, right? And one of the reasons we have this problem for Americans being anti-crypto, anti-NFCs, which by the way is ironic because I think Web3 and crypto is as American as it gets, right? It's liberalism, it's freedom, it's property rights, right? Tell me what's not American about that, right? It's free markets, right? It is as American as it gets. And yet so many Americans are like, I don't understand this and I reject this, right?

50:52That because they don't have education, they don't have training, they don't have financial literacy, right? And so this to me is a big thing. And to me, you know, I think the macro is that if we move people from web, properly onboard them to web three, they become financial literate. If they become financial literate, then we don't have to worry about sort of many of these financial frauds because they'll know what's going on, right? Like no, very few people nowadays get scammed by email scams, but you know, 20 years ago they did, right? So it comes down to education. So I think that's one macro And education is a$5 trillion space today, right?

51:19And, you know, Web3 is barely in it. With Open Campus and EDU, we're very active in trying to build that space as a foundation. But also I think most people around the world are not still educated enough. And I think Web3 provides powerful funding mechanisms for this. I mean, if you think about things like student loans, you know, all the financial instruments that exist around the educational space, actually these are not optimized at all. You know, I'm currently doing college tours with my daughter and I'm going through, you know, these universities. and one of the stats that blows my mind still today is how they're proud that in their last graduating years, 21 % of their student populations, whether it's 70 to 21%, are first-time students from their family generation.

51:59Now, on one hand, that's admirable and I love that. But to me, that America still potentially, actually not potentially, has a significant population that has generational parents that have never gone to school or university is insane, but it just shows you where we are in the world, right? And, you know, if we live in the privileged class, we don't see it, but that's the world. And that's basically what we want to fix with Web3 Education, bringing capital information with digital property rights or educational content to teachers. And just as a side note, and it's kind of funny because it was completely unprompted.

52:32You know, I think education is so important. CZ actually just recently tweeted and he said, oh, you know what? I think education is something we're looking into, stay tuned, right? And again, this is how I see it, is that it's such an important thing to society. And I think every business leader ultimately will understand the value of education. I think if we make educators and teachers generate value from Web3 and crypto, that's how we win over hearts and minds because you want your teachers to do better and you want our society to improve this way. At the end of the day, gaming is going to give us growth.

53:05DeFi is going to be amazing, but it won't win the hearts and minds of people because it still seems to benefit a crowd of people that most of them can't associate with. Like most parents don't want their kids to play more games, even if it makes them money, for instance, right? But they do want better education. They do want their teachers to make more money. They do want more equity for the people who provide basically learning to all of us. And so that's one of the big reasons why I think we should embrace Web3 education as much as we can. Yeah, I mean, that's been part of my mission ever since I discovered all of this, was, listen, this is the biggest macro trade of all time.

53:38This is the answer to the set of problems that we've been given. And really, the key thing is, yeah, don't fuck this up. It's like, here's the opportunity set. Just learn what you need to do. It's actually not that difficult to get this bit right. Yes, it can be difficult to navigate everything. But just overall, to educate as many people as possible, that's what Real Vision has been doing as much as possible. I don't know. Yes. I'm probably onboarded more... people than almost anybody else in the world just by just doing an amazing job thank you just by talking we've had education about nfts education about web3 education about everything just to get people to understand and not be scared of it and embrace it because it's there to change their lives and i don't want anybody to feel left behind and say we didn't get involved we missed it because then we've all failed.

54:36Then we've failed in everything we should do, which is on a level of the pain, Phil. Yes, and there's still a lot of work to do, but I think there's an incredible opportunity for everyone. And I think the beautiful thing about Web3 is that everyone can get involved right now with almost no friction and no hurdles, if you think about it. Fantastic. Yeah, as ever, fantastic. Thank you for catching up with us. Really appreciate it. We could have spoken for hours. Absolute pleasure. One day when you're in one place for a period of time, and we'll sit down for longer. Yeah, let's do that. And hopefully the internet connection won't be an issue.

55:08Yeah, perfect. All right, my friend. Thanks so much. What a great conversation. I know I'm feeling a lot better about our futures after that. And tomorrow, there's more reason for optimism as Beth Kindig and Jordi Visser join us to discuss how tech and AI investments might just be another key in the puzzle of all of us on fucking our futures. But make sure to tune in as it's not quite as simple as you may think. Thanks for watching everybody.