SoFi Co-Founder: Bet on Crypto or Get Left Behind ft. Mike Cagney

27:06But the first thing you can disrupt is the rail. And so dropping this in as the rail in lieu of ACH is a pretty interesting application. But outside of the US, where it's QR code driven, there's a lot of ability to just go straight bilateral peer-to-peer payment. So we think it's what the industry's needed. And the challenge that we've had historically is USDC is crypto, and the banks haven't been able to hold that. This is a security that banks can hold that. So barring any change in regulation and so forth in terms of the stablecoin legislation that's working through, you know, today banks can use yields because it's a security.

27:44It just happens to be on a public blockchain. And what about off-ramps out of that? You know, if people want to exchange it for cash or whatever their needs are, the fungibility within the real world has always been another issue, right? Because of regulation and banking. Right. So it's a security off ramp on an off ramp, just as if you were investing in a mutual fund directly from the fund issuer. So we have a set of financial entities that provide fiat rails during market hours. And then what we're working on with a couple of our partners are stable coin rails, non-hours. So on a non-US banking hour, you'd be able to turn yields into USDC to the extent that you wanted to do that.

28:27During US banking hours, you can turn in US dollars and ultimately into euros and other currency as well. So you've also built an exchange. Yeah. Talk about the exchange and why you did that. I'm trying to get together. There's a vision here of something much larger. You're building component parts, which I can see. So I'm trying to get to, okay, what are these parts and where the hell are you going? Yeah. So let me talk about that, and then I'll go back to the exchange and how it fits in. What we're ultimately trying to do is build what we would call the exchange of everything, right? The ability to have equity, fixed income, crypto, all under one venue and all seamlessly cross-collateralized.

29:10So if you went to a big sovereign like a Temeset, for example, they would tell you that if they could more efficiently cross-collateralize their assets, they would have twice as much capital to deploy. And so the first step of this is let's get everything under one roof where we have true perfection to the assets. We're not tokenizing a DTC security, for example. The security lives on chains. We know we have the perfection to it and the ability to liquidate it. Let's get a true blockchain-nated ecosystem of assets, securities, crypto, et cetera, and provide that ability to cross-collateralize.

29:46that opens the second problem which is if you went to a temesac or a gic or a big sovereign like that they'd say well if i could deploy a lot more capital i can't get it because i'm named full on the prime broker or they're named full on me right effectively that ecosystem's been topped out and that's where that whole democratized construct of it doesn't matter who the borrower is. It's people with money lending against assets that want money and disintermediating the constructible borrower and single name credit risk, et cetera. That's when we really create a massively efficient capital ecosystem.

30:26And that's what we're trying to build out. So if you rewind it, our efforts that we've done on lending and that ecosystem that we're building out. Again, there's first order benefits of why we did that. We save a lot of money using the blockchain. It's allowed to figure it to be a very profitable business, etc. But the real goal is that was just the first of a series of assets we're bringing on chain that allow for that cross-bitalization. And we're doing the same thing now with crypto. We're doing the same thing with a couple of different efforts on public equity, including why we're involved in this ionic situation, which was the miner that came out of Celsius.

31:08And what our focus has been on running that shareholder activist campaign there, because we want to get that stock listed on chain and start showing this ability to seamlessly cross-collateralize across asset types. And so within the exchange itself, it really forced us to think about how exchanges work. And the thing that I always kind of scratch my head on, it's ironic that Binance and Coinbase are as large as they are trading blockchain assets, but not in a blockchain, right? It's a true centralized exchange construct. You deliver your assets to them. They hold the assets. And the fact that we still do that after FTX is mind boggling to me.

31:51And so my view is that any exchange that's going to really work needs to be done in a true self-custody construct. And the challenge on self-custody and the challenge in structuring it this way, as you know, is these L1s are cross-compatible. Solana doesn't trade on Bitcoin. Bitcoin doesn't trade on Ethereum. And so the exchange is saying, well, I'm doing you a service taking all this in and allowing you to trade an electronic representation of this because you don't have to worry about this cross-exchange and wrapping and all this other stuff. But the reality is we have a really elegant solution that's come to market over the last one plus years, multi-party computation wallets.

32:35And these MPC wallets allow us to be able to represent Bitcoin on the Bitcoin network and Solana on the Solana network and figure loans on the provenance network. And it allows us to create a security entitlement against those assets that can trade on an exchange. And it allows us to do a decentralized MPC where the policy agents themselves are distributed, where you make it much harder to hack. You eliminate the whole key loss issue. You eliminate the exchange idiosyncratic risk where they no longer have your assets. They go bankrupt. You don't have to claim back to them to pull your assets back.

33:14It's effectively self-custody, but it's a way that can actually work and qualified custodial construct for institutions and other things as well. And so one of the big focus points of standing the exchange up was building that back-end custodial framework, that MPC wallet structure, where we don't take possession of your assets, right? We run the exchange, you trade security entitlements, but the assets always stay with you. And that's kind of the genesis of why we did that. So then what's next into this plan? What else are you working on? Yes. So you surely have got to regret having such a big plan at this point.

33:55It's a lot of work. Yeah, it's a lot of work. And I apologize for going through six years of work and 20 minutes. But yeah, but it's exciting. And look, there's a couple of different efforts that we have going on right now. One is, as I said, we're going to continue to build that Lenny ecosystem out. We're going to build something that's closer to a Fannie Mae Freddie Mac construct and go wider on assets there. Two, we're beginning to build the crypto ecosystem out. So we have a US exchange, we have a Cayman exchange, we have an Ireland VASP, we're building geographic representation for the crypto.

34:31And we're bringing this democratized prime construct onto the exchange. So when I borrow margin, for example, on the exchange today, it's coming from people who put that capital up where we run a limit order book to clear the rate for that capital. And so So that infrastructure will continue to expand out. But what I'm focused on in a couple of areas I have some keen interest on is getting public securities onto chain beyond the yield stable point that I talked about. So we're about to launch our REIT onto the chain. And you'll be able to buy figures REIT and use as collateral to then buy Bitcoin.

35:08And that, from a trading standpoint, is a good trade because the yield on the REIT is higher than the margin yield on the loan. As I mentioned earlier, there's a transaction that we've been working on for a while where I bid on both FTX and Celsius bankruptcies because I wanted to restart those companies. Because in U.S. bankruptcy, there's a rule called 1145 that lets you issue public equity without an S-1. And so you can effectively create a public security without any SEC direct compliance or direct approval to do that. and this to me was a way to get public equity on chain and obviously FTX didn't restart which was disappointing and we felt that we put a good bid in for that and it was disappointing that the company didn't lean in to do that Celsius opted for a different plan than the one that we put forward but that plan blew up and the mining company that's come out of that called Ionic Digital has not, from my perspective, has not been run very well And so we're running a proxy battle right now to get two board seats in that company.

36:16And one of the first things that we want to do is provide liquidity through an ATS listing. And, you know, in fact, we make that one of the first public securities to be trading native on chain. No DTC registration. You're not tokenizing a DTC security. It lives on blockchain. And what my hope is, is that we can demonstrate with market making, with the ability to borrow, with the right infrastructure there, that there's sufficient crossover from Bitcoin investors to Bitcoin miners that we can drive more liquidity in this environment than you could in a NASDAQ. And then I would have ammunition to go to miners listed on the NASDAQ and say, look, you should be listed over here.

36:56And this is kind of the beginning of a concentric circle of how we start getting critical mass of equities on chain. Because I can't go to Goldman and say, good news, your next IPO is going to be on blockchain. Because they'd say, why? The NASDAQ works fine. Why would I take the risk and uncertainty to do a blockchain IPO? I'm not going to do it. So I have to demonstrate in a different way that there is liquidity and there is a market value in listing this way. Is there not a market for, we'll call it an ICO, but the IPO equivalent to take many of these private companies public but digitally native and on-chain.

37:39Because, I mean, well, whether it's Dan Tapiero's portfolio or whether it's a bunch of VC portfolios, there's a lot of these that we're kind of not sure what the equity value is because they've got equity in token. There's some way that it feels like a tokenized exchange for equity is a very big thing. Yeah, and you just have to be pragmatic about a couple of challenges there. One is having enough float and enough liquidity in a single name to keep prices constant and not go stale. But the other is I felt exactly this a couple of years ago. And when I first got the alternative trading system, the first thing I did is turned on a secondary for figure stock.

38:25And so I ran a 24-7, 365 marketplace for Figure Equity for two weeks where you went in and it traded and sold just like you would expect it to in a blockchain. It was real-time bilateral settlement. I encumbered my wallet with money. I faced off against you with the security. Boom, instant bilateral transactions. Everybody loved it. I thought it was awesome. I built effectively a cap table management business called Figure Equity Solutions and onboarded 600 companies onto that platform to be able to access the secondary market. And I did that just as the market turned south on the bankruptcies.

39:04And all of a sudden, nobody wanted to see the price of their acquisition. and it's so fair like we're not going to list anything because we don't want you know we want to control the narrative of our equity and so you know there's just some realities you face in the private company land um you know that is one and then the ability to have a consistent like martin i'm more thinking about this we're talking about public and private i don't think that distinction needs to happen with the solution that you're offering, right? Which is they're just designated listed things. So it could be secondary in the case of a private company like FIGA, or it could be primary.

39:45It's irrelevant because the structure's changed. That's right. And the premise behind that business was that if we could show sufficient liquidity in private secondary, when those companies went public, we'd say, well, why would you list on the nasdaq right you have a venue here that's liquid you have access to capital people understand your equity um and it makes sense but but it was you know just some of the headwinds of of trying to do that from private shares true challenging yeah makes sense and yeah there's just not left liquidity it just take it just takes time how do you deal with the complexity of putting this together?

40:30And I've mentioned it a few times, but look, there's a lot of moving parts. People don't really understand. People wave their hands around and go, oh, real world assets, they're all retokenized. I'm like, you have no fucking idea how complicated this stuff is and how ingrained in old systems everybody is and how big a battle that is. Yeah, it's happening, but it's hard work. No, look, when we did the first blockchain loan, we went to settle with a large private equity firm and they said where's the Q-SIP I said well you don't need a Q-SIP we can call whatever you want they're like no I can't load this into my back office unless there's a Q-SIP and I said well can I make up a Q-SIP it's like no we need a real Q-SIP so you gotta pay$8 or whatever you gotta Q-SIP I was at a very high profile sovereign regulator talking about getting the equivalent of an ATS system.

41:27And they said, well, we need to understand the post-settlement process. And I said, well, there's no post-settlement process. It's bilateral. You face off, we transact instantly, it's done. And they're like, well, we don't know how to do that. And I'm like, well, but that's what blockchain is. There is no moving of anything. We did it when we traded. And so, you know, one last point, I'll belabor this. When I see things like DTC working on blockchain experiments, I'm like, the last thing DTC ever wants in the world is for blockchain to actually work in a marketplace because there's no role for DTC.

42:06And so the biggest challenge we have in affecting change is the entities that normally would be driving that change. It's so self-disruptive to them that they're not going to do it. right? DTC is not going to usher in a blockchain marketplace. ICE is not going to usher in a blockchain exchange. VISA is not going to usher in a blockchain payment rail, right? Because none of these things are consistent with their businesses because their businesses are categorically rent seeking businesses that blockchain disrupts out. And so that itself makes it really hard. And, you know, if you look at how we had to start, I couldn't get a bank to use the technology.

42:46I had to create a lending company and a blockchain and go convince the capital markets that these weren't like crazy things that were going to disappear overnight. Like I had to bring all parts of the ecosystem to the table at once to get it kicked off. And that's why you haven't seen a lot of this happen because, you know, we were in a unique situation. We had the relationships to do that and the technology problems to do that. But, you know, generally firms are really good at one of those three things. And so, you know, our unique situation, the team that we have being able to cut across all three got us to jumpstart the process.

43:24But that's where I think we're going to see a tipping point. And I think the tipping point is going to come from the fact that we've done so much on chain from a transactional standpoint, that the real economics are there, that the sell side and the buy side are there and participating, plus the regulatory change that I expect us to get over the next four years. I mean, look, we did$41 billion or$43 billion, whatever the number is, of real-world asset blockchain. And I don't like the real-world asset thing either. It annoys me. No, I doubt you. It annoys the hell out of me. It's just assets. Yeah, I know, but that's what we have to call it.

43:58So$43 billion of that in the hardest regulatory environment we could ever have, what do you think we're going to do over the next four years? I mean, it's going to take off, And, you know, especially when people can talk about it and not have to hide the fact of doing it and point to the value that we have in administration that's very focused on building and doing more on-chain and trying to take the leadership position there. I think, you know, this should be a good run for blockchain. So if you look ahead into the future a bit, what does the whole blockchain space feel like? Like, where are we going towards?

44:39Because, look, it's been a stop-start journey, but it's actually been relatively consistent. It's taken periods of time longer, periods of time faster. Where do you think this is all going? Yeah, I always view it that under the surface, there's been a steady progress of development. And then on the surface, there's these headlines that we just, like, can't get out of our way and shoot ourselves in the foot, right? You know, we have the ICO debacle. We have the FTX debacle. you know we just had the libra now everyone's back to oh you know blockchain shit it's just for fraudsters and scammers and you know blah blah because they're not seeing the real we do this to ourselves clearly i know the industry shoots itself in the foot it's it like it can't resist an opportunity to mess up and you know so be it but but there is real work happening under underneath that's not as sexy and high profile but it's meaningful um what what i'm most concerned about or where i tend to be most pragmatic um you know is is the reality that that the nasdaq can process 250 000 transactions a second right um visa peak load can can process 680 000 transactions a second um the idea that that we're at a point technology wise where a blockchain could displace the market it doesn't have the processing capacity to do that right now and and so getting close now fire dancer solana sui there's a bunch of these getting close we're getting closer and and but we're getting remember we're getting closer to being able to displace one market right like like we'll have enough tps to displace the nasdaq soon right at some point, but that's not the capital markets.

46:24And so what I think needs to happen is some deep seek equivalent of improvement in TPS. Because at the end of the day, you probably don't need lots of public chains. And this is where I vacillate back and forth. Is this a blockchain to win them all or will there be lots of different disparate chains and interoperability will matter. But even in the latter circumstance, we're still not at that point of disruption. And so what I think will happen is people are going to double down on the TPS side, native L1 TPS, not L2 or L3. And that will pave the way for a meaningful discussion about, hey, let's displace an entire system.

47:12Right. And so I think I'm encouraged about what I see now in terms of getting there. And obviously, you know, Salon and Sweet have done a really good job, you know, getting towards that. But we still have work to do on that front. So I'm just pragmatic about that right now. One of my views is that ETH overbuilds capacity, right? block space, which is fine because over time, let's say the financial system moves, you know, you go to any bank, any hedge fund, any asset manager, they all use Microsoft. Not one uses Apple or Google, right? So this weird way the financial system works, it's like once the decision is made, they do that.

48:01It was the same with the IBM mainframes. It's the same in all of this ship and i have a feeling that it's it's to lose because it is battle tested has the lindy effect it has the layer twos you can spin up a private ish blockchain but still public you know you've got control over the ecosystem everything there so i kind of get the idea that yeah solana could that be used for exchanges or sweet yeah sure because low latency uh high tps but for the kind of big stuff that you're doing it feels difficult not to be on it yeah i i think that so it's a constant debate that we have and and you know if you look at why we built provenance blockchain back in 18 and then rebuilt it in 20 um it was because at the time what we had was was eth uh and ethereum you know it wasn't even that it was slow and expensive it was the predictability right it was certainty of being written and you know when i when i left an offer hit it did i expect to be done i don't expect to hear that my block wasn't written and come back in 15 minutes and and then the proof of proof of stake networks were coming up or in slantest case proof of history and the challenge we had there was they were functioning like golden data sets right so i put a loan on a network like that the loan would go to the validators and be written and i couldn't let my customer pi information or anything else be exposed to a network that i couldn't control and what we ended up doing with provenance is build a structure where it acted as a data validation agent but not a golden data set.

49:38So what goes to, when I put a five gig loan on provenance, the five gigs goes in an encrypted object store and what goes to the validators is the 256 character hash of that data. And when I trade that loan with you three months from now. So it's sort of like a zero knowledge. That's right. It's action, right? And when I trade that loan three months from now, it will validate that that loan is true. If it's not true, it can't tell you what's wrong with it, but that's okay. We opted for that to build into that. At the time, we were overly focused on TPS because the reality is when you're trading loans and asset-back securities, you don't need high TPS.

50:17No, they're single transactions of big size. I mean, we might do 100 transactions a day on that ecosystem right now. It's not high frequency yet. But we certainly want to stand up a TBA market, which would be high frequency, and that'll come out of the guarantor. So if I reference that back to Ethereum, obviously Ethereum going from proof of work to proof of stake was an improvement. I think it is overbuilt. I think it still has a lot of challenges. And I think it's still a hard network for a regulated financial institution to participate in. Now, I think what will be interesting is my guess is JP Morgan will launch JP Coin on Ethereum before the end of the year.

51:09And that would be very interesting if they do that. JP Coin doing what? Basically just being another stable. But I don't think that could happen ahead of the legislation. the stablecoin legislation. They're trying to get that legislation done ahead of the August recess. So it would be, you know, fourth quarter or something like that would happen. But, you know, it'll be interesting to see where the Trapi leans into Ethereum or not. I don't know where else they go, to be honest. If you're JP Morgan, right, you're unlikely to go to Solana or it's because they're more closed ecosystems, right? The monolithic chains versus, you know, the others, it just feels that it's almost impossible to make that decision.

51:54They're not going to go to somebody brand new either. Right. Not Jay Van Orkden. So it's kind of like it's ETH, shit or bust. That's why when I get to, when I think this thing through, I'm like, I don't see any other solution that's possible at this stage. Yeah, well, and that's what the next 12 months will show us is how these platforms evolve. I think, you know, the challenge Solana has is, you know, the situation that we have with Libra and the meme coin thing, those are things that don't induce TradFi to come and play in your ecosystem. They're not bad things. I mean, they generate huge amounts of fees for the network, and I don't begrudge them that at all.

52:33But that's not going to get JP Morgan or Goldman excited to start trading on your platform. Although, if they can spin the story differently, I mean, look, it's been an ugly shit show and it's been a bit too grifty, but crypto's been grifty for a long time, right? but um you know at the extreme because it's a wild west and it is experimentation so i get that and i don't really have a massive issue with it but the trump coin to me was really interesting because it shows how fast capital formation can happen amongst a large group of a decentralized entity amongst a large group of people who have a commonality of idea we saw the consolation the constitution dow before that was another way it was another holy shit moment for for capital formation.

53:20There was a very big signal. I mean, memes and stuff have a lot of signal about a bunch of stuff, attention, economy and stuff. But for capital formation, I think it was a big moment. Yeah, it was. It also illustrated the problem we have with fiat rails, right? Because they just couldn't get the money in to support the bid. And this is where, you know, I talk to people and they talk about Aave or compound. They're like, okay, there's $3 billion of USDC on Aave being land. And I say, you know, in the securitization market, that's insignificant, right? I mean, you need hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars.

53:56And so, you know, but the fiat rails have been so sticky to do that. So I think the potential for capital formation is there. But right now, what gated an even faster acceleration of that Trump coin was the inability to get dollars on. Probably saved people a shit ton of money as well. It did. And, you know, so some people, instead of yelling at their Fiat Rail onboarding partners, should be thanking them. But, you know, but it demonstrated some of the weaknesses in the ecosystem. And we want to scale this to prime time. Exactly. So, Mike, what's next for you guys? Or what's next for you? Yeah, look, I mean, we would like, you know, we would like Figure to be public this year.

54:39I think we've publicly said that we had a confidential S1 of the SEC last year. We pulled that because we just could not get a process in place where we could use blockchain effectively. I think we'd like to re-engage and push that this year and continue to grow. And I think on the market side, continuing to add product, being able to move into public equity, and really beginning this democratized prime, which I would say is a competitor to an Aave or a compound DeFi construct, but in a more way that you have control through a limit order book of the rates that you lend at, the ability to either fully deploy or not deploy your capital, some other things that I think are enhancements to the DeFi protocols.

55:26IPO, that's a long process again, right? And we don't really have the clarity that we're going to let people get to market because there's you guys, there's maybe Kraken, there's Circle, there's a whole bunch of people kind of queuing up, but it's been painful. Yeah, look, I mean, the process last year, I ended up having to split figure into two companies, figure and figure markets, because what was in figure markets was absolutely a non-starter from an IPO standpoint as it related to the regulators. And what I'm most likely doing now is recombining that company and taking that combined business out.

56:03Because everything that was a headwind last year, the regulatory headwind, the public market headwind, is now becoming not a tailwind yet, but at least not a headwind anymore this year. We're hearing grumblings there's going to be support and push for IPOs, blockchain companies. But we haven't seen that tangibly yet. But I don't think we're getting the same pushback, especially in terms of iteration of the SEC. And you can't use this word. You can't say public chain, et cetera. I think that's going away. I think the public markets there, I've had a lot of reverse inquiry from public market investors who are like, look, I want to invest in Web3 companies.

56:39You don't have a lot of options in the public market right now to invest in a Web3 company. I would argue outside of base, Coinbase is a Web2 company. It's analogous to like a Robinhood. MicroStrategy buys Bitcoin, but that's not an operating business on Web3, right? There's just not a lot of blockchain opportunities for people to deploy capital too. And I think that there's a lot of money out there that wants to deploy to it. So when there's money that wants to go somewhere and there's businesses that need to take it, a way will be found. A final question for you. When are we going to get some more depth of understanding of what the new administration is going to do?

57:25because I guess that David Sachs is probably speaking to Mark Andresen and A16Z and a whole bunch of others. They tried to form that committee, and typical of crypto, they disbanded it because nobody could get on. It's like, really, guys, once. You just had to once get on with each other. When are we going to get something a bit clearer? Yeah, and I think going back to your first point, I think the crypto community is kind of realizing that they might have changed something in a way they didn't fully comprehend. So, you know, the crypto community, the participants have benefited from a regulatory mode for the last four years.

58:07And, you know, if you were Coinbase, you had a war chest and you could say, you know, screw you SEC and fight them off. And your smaller competitors couldn't do that. And if you were a custodian, Boney didn't want to go into the custodial business because they were told they couldn't. And you're a stablecoin provider. JP is not issuing JP coin on Ethereum because they've been told they couldn't. That's all changing. And you're getting, ICE is pushing for a centralized global crypto exchange. So the idea of it living in all these individual Coinbase and Binance and OKEx, et cetera, they're saying that's ridiculous.

58:40It's just being one exchange. The big custodians are coming into the cost-e space. Bank of New York will be cussing crypto extensively this year. JP will issue JP coin. We're getting a lot of stuff. And so when you talk about our inability to sit work coordinated, that's going to be a problem as we deal with a different level of competition over the next 6 to 12 months that we had to deal with over the last four years. Four years, we had to deal with the regulators, but we didn't have to deal with the banks and the heavily capitalized incumbents coming in and competing with us. And that being said, I think from the regulatory standpoint, Commissioner Pierce is driving the crypto task force.

59:19I think that's a great, great thing for the industry. I don't think they've been super active yet meeting with folks. They release publicly. It's a handful of names. Bo Hines is David Sachs' crypto appointee. I think he's getting his arms around what's going on and looking to lean in. But I know the administration is looking for both market structure legislation and stable coin legislation no later than the August recess of this year. So, you know, I'd expect you're going to see significant legislation happening over the summer. And, you know, hopefully we do it the right way. And do you think they either collapse the SEC and the CFTC into the same entity, or does this all switch to the CFTC, or do we just get a separate kind of vast regulator and just build it from scratch?

1:00:16Well, the government certainly indicated that they prefer less than more right now. And so I think the idea of consolidation makes sense. I don't think you're going to see that happen before an August recess I think that's a much longer discussion although as I said they want market structure legislation defined by that August recess so at least the entities as they exist today it will be very clear who regulates what by then and then I think it's a longer term discussion for them in terms of does it make sense to have a CFTC and an SEC for example perfect mike ever so interesting thank you so much for your time good luck for 2025 it's going to be quite a year i think you're going to be busy as well so there's no there's no rest for you i'm afraid my friend no there's not but i appreciate i appreciate the time today thanks for having me on yeah not at all good to see you you too so look lots to take away from the video is a the complexity of what mike is trying to do the magnitude of what needs to get done These are not simple things that people just think we turn on tokenization and everything works.

1:01:26As Mike explained, there's so many interconnected things and so many people that don't want it to happen. But I think it's interesting. The big one for me was Mike just casually dropping this JP Morgan coin, the JP coin or whatever it's called, as their kind of token and their blockchain to be built on Ethereum. That was something I hadn't really heard. And Mike seemed pretty confident with that. But overall, you can see that this space is going to continue to grow. We can see that the financial system over time will either have to disrupt itself or get disrupted. And finance is the largest use of blockchain of all.

1:02:06So it was set out to do this when blockchain and Bitcoin came. And it's going to continue that relentless journey over time to disrupt and rebuild a parallel financial system. Anyway, I'll see you next time.

1:02:24Yalla Habibi! It's good to be here at the main Belochian event of this year. You get to speak to the smartest people, people like you trying to figure this out, but also the people on stage. They're the experts. What more can you ask? It's a brilliant, brilliant event, and you'll come away with lots of new ideas and a better understanding of this incredible exponential world. So we get all of that all in one place, See you at Token 2049 in Dubai.

1:03:21register and start practicing with their free and unlimited demo. See a trading opportunity? You'll be able to trade it in just two clicks. Feel ready? You can move to real money with as little as$100 once your account is approved. And the great thing is that in addition to crypto, Plus500 gives you access to a wide range of instruments, S &P 500, NASDAQ, gas, and much more. Explore equity indices, energy, metals, Forex, and beyond. With a simple and intuitive platform, you could trade anytime, anywhere. Experience the fast, accessible futures trading you've been waiting for with Plus500. With over 20 years of experience, Plus500 is your gateway to the markets.

1:03:57Visit us.plus500.com to learn more. Trading in futures involves the risk of loss and is not suitable for everyone. Not all applicants will qualify. Plus500, it's trading with a plus.