The Power of Culture in Web3: The GMoney Story

27:49And I think that that is the beauty of stuff like this where it's not necessarily like, well, we have to call the API and we have to make sure and we have to do all this dev work. It's like kind of flattening out that stack and allowing the community to kind of be much more organic and composable across different layers. I also think it's, you know, you said before that you try and experiment because you can. And I think what you're experimenting with is something you and I have talked about and many of us have talked about is how brands can have a direct relationship with their customers. And that community can mean many things.

28:27It doesn't have to be just about the clothing. It can be about who the hell knows. Because what you're doing is accumulating like-minded people without the need of a middleman. And what does that lead to? Who can build on that network? What comes of it? And I think we've both been speaking to brands about doing this, but you're actually doing it to show the way as well. Right. Yeah. And it's interesting because I mean, I love it because when I see a big brand doing something very similar to what I'm doing, I'm like, that's great. Like I if if I can convince a big brand to do something like that, then they probably their competitors are watching them.

29:06And then that kind of starts the entire snowball effect. And I think that that is really compelling. And to your point of, you know, it's not literally just about the clothing like we're in discord right now. Now, like, you know, people are talking about meme coins, obviously, because that's what people are talking about. Right. But we're also talking about like healthy eating habits. And it's like all these other things that it's not necessarily just like, all right, well, I like clothes and you like clothes. And that's the only thing we're going to talk about. There's so many other conversations that happen.

29:36And like if I can, if people connect in my community because they're like, hey, we have this overarching commonality and interest. But hey, we complement each other perfectly for this idea and we have this startup idea and they start something great. Like I love using that venture fund as an example because I had never in my wildest dreams imagined that something like that would come from that. And when I heard that story, I was like, wow, I'm like, there's really something special here of not only creating like a really good experience of bringing the tech into the real world. And it was, you know, a very low lift, right?

30:16You know yourself to collect the POAP is not that hard. You literally just tap your phone and you enter your ETH address. And it's as simple as that. But now it's like people can start connecting and you can start bringing that social graph and that layer on chain, which I think is something that's been missing. Right. Because the problem that I've seen with a lot of the scalability of crypto is like, how do you verify that somebody is a human? Right. And now all of a sudden, if I'm kind of providing that framework of at least the people within my ecosystem that have collected PO-Ups are probably human beings, then I think that starts to work up like a whole new network effects like going down the road as we build on top of it.

30:57So what are you thinking of now? Are you thinking of growing the brand or growing the network? You know, what kind of order are you thinking of doing this in? How are you planning it forward? I think they grow together, right? I think because for me, like the brand stands for something, right? And the brand is something that I think people want to be a part of. I have felt, and I'm sure you probably have experienced something very similar where I've invested in a lot of deals in the space. I think at this point, I'm in over 100 angel investments. And one of the things that I always find a little frustrating is people are like, we're going to be the protocol layer that everybody builds on top of.

31:37And I feel like everybody, a lot of devs have built these 10 lane highways when there's like three cars on the road. And so it's like, great, you've built a protocol, but nobody's using it. So I was like, I'm going to build something that I want to see out there on the application layer and utilize all these protocols and plug them into, plug my application into them where I see fit. because that's how you're going to get, you know, that's how you're gonna get cars on the road, right? The only way, you know, a user doesn't want to say, you know, oh, this is great. Like TC, SMTP is a great way to send messages in real time to each other on other sides of the world.

32:14You're like, I just want to use Google mail and send an email to somebody. Right. And so I feel like what, what I'm trying to do is I think building the brand and building the network go hand in hand. But for me, the only reason people want to be part of the network is because of the brand, right? And so that to me has been the central focal point of what I've been building. And the bigger that the brand gets, then the network effects around that brand, I think, will follow. And how do NFTs fit into all of this? Because, you know, you're indifferent between physical and digital, really. I mean, that's the nexus that you exist.

32:48How are you thinking about all of the integration there? So, yeah, so I think one is all of our garments are chipped, right? So even on this hat, there's an NFC chip that's right here on the back that you can scan. And so when you scan that, that takes you to a page, a web app, right? Because I don't want people to have to download an application in order to interact with it. Because if you're anything like me, like I have probably like 300 apps on my phone that I should just delete, I'm just too lazy to delete them. And so, but like when you scan that, you basically have two options. One is you can collect the POAP, which is basically proof that you met that hat, right?

33:28So that that connection begins to exist. But then there's also an NFT that is tied to that hat that acts as the proof of authenticity that travels with the hat, right? And because like, to me, like anytime you buy something, right? And I'll use watches as an example. if you buy a watch with paperwork, it's worth significantly more than buying a watch without it, right? Because that certificate of authenticity is super, super valuable, right? And so maybe in a hat, maybe it doesn't matter, but maybe it does matter to some people. But I think the more higher value the item is, the more valuable that certificate of authenticity that travels with it becomes.

34:06And so I think that that is one, a very simple and easy use case for NFTs, right? And so that's really simple, right? And that's kind of bringing it out into the physical world. But I think as you start going into the digital world, right, that one, the composability of what does a wearable look like in the future, I just don't think we're necessarily there just yet because I think the hardware needs to catch up where we're having this conversation in your boardroom in the metaverse as opposed to on a Zoom call, right? I think when that starts to happen, then wearables will probably become more of a thing.

34:39but you know maybe apple comes out with an amazing product that blows our minds in the next 60 days or maybe it takes another five to ten years i really don't know but i think that ultimately you want to have that ownership in a digital format and there's no better way to to express that than with nft technology also i think you know what you're doing is is the proof of you meeting that hat i think is a really good concept and i don't know if you've seen stuff like club divan they're doing it with wine so super high and wine and they're doing it that's proof of drink and proof of ownership and proof of transport and all sorts of stuff but kind of if you drink a bottle you kind of get to boast that you've drunk the bottle and it appears on chain it then destroys that bottle from the marketplace and nobody can then create a counterfeit one really clever it's around the same idea is is proof that you've met an object is is something i think that's that people haven't got their heads around yet right yeah and i think that that to your point right is like that's that's the wine equivalent of saving that ticket right exactly right now right the only way or before nfts the only way that exists was somebody taking a photo to commemorate that occasion right but outside of that that that was it right or it's or it's what i've got is wine that i've drunk that only sits in your studio at home right like how how like and this is like the scalability of the internet, right?

36:04Like this is why, you know, we're all sitting here collecting JPEGs. And that was my initial thesis of if I was going to spend$150 ,000 on this picture on the internet or a Lamborghini, right? Like the scalability of me showing that off, like the internet is a million times higher than me just driving my Lamborghini around my neighborhood, right? And so I think as humans, we want to kind of one, show off like our accolades and show off our experiences, right? And that's why I've got my token frame behind me, right? We're humans, we're ridiculous, but that's what we do. Exactly. Let's talk a little bit about the NFT space right now, and then we'll move into what else interests you.

36:47But NFT space, firstly, what's interesting to you? And the other thing, I saw you talking a while ago about blur and the issues about the royalties and stuff like that. How do you think about the structural issues that's going on in the NFT space? And then also after that, we'll talk about some of the projects that you like. Yeah, I mean, I guess I would also, I'd love to know what you think about it. But I guess I'll start with my thoughts of, I ultimately think that not honoring creator royalties is net negative for the current NFT space. More and more increasingly to me from the actions I've seen from Blur is that they're not necessarily here to help transact in JPEGs and art.

37:35They're here. What I think that they're setting up for is creating a financial system that you can onboard a bond, right? Or you can onboard credit of some sort where they're creating that ecosystem so that they can bring a real world asset on there because obviously the pictures don't even matter on Blur. But they do, like NFTs are a real thing, right? Like when I first found out about NFTs, I was like, I mean, like every credit desk at some point is going to be brought on chain so that you can see like what is your exposure to somebody like all these bank failures and everything, right? The reason why there's panic is because people have no idea what their exposure is.

38:17But if that was who owns what, a derivative market's a nightmare. And so like what happens if that's all on chain? So you can see in real time, it's like, oh, well, this is my counterparty. and this is how much liquidity they have left, right? Like even FTX, the failures of everything that's happened in the last year wasn't from decentralized infrastructure. It was all from centralized points of failure. And those points of failure turned out, guess what? Like you actually couldn't trust that person and you shouldn't have trusted that person, right? And so I think from what it looks like to me is that Blur is trying to set that up.

38:53And I think today the issuers are NFT projects, But in the future, I wouldn't be surprised if it was like commercial real estate or lending products or whatever have you that come on and trade on a platform like that. And probably NFTs and art probably go off it just because there's going to be better experiences for collectors. But there will be the people that are market making and providing that liquidity for people that want it. I ultimately am more of a creator first person in the space. But I guess as I've seen Blur iterate on what they've been doing, it seems to me like they're just trying to set up for probably a much larger TAM of bringing real world assets on chain.

39:41Just to cover my thoughts on it is getting rid of royalties is the complete opposite of why we started Web3 in the first place. It's as simple as that. You know, we all believe that people should have participate and have their fair share of a market and not be exploited by others. And it feels exploitation. I don't like it. And I think the space can self-organize to say we're not going to go there. But like to that point, right, is I think what creators have to do is incentivize people to pay royalties. Right. Like why why do I want to pay royalties? And I think you can look at the high-end car market and the luxury watch market for ideas, right?

40:22Where it's like if you get a Lamborghini or Ferrari and you're able to buy it from the factory, there's like rules around like if you flip it, good luck buying one ever again, right? They're like, nope, you're off the list, right? And the same thing with watches. If you get a good deal on a watch that's like highly coveted, that's great. If that ends up in somebody's hands over the next five years, you're never getting a watch again. Right. And so I think that type of that exists in the legacy world. But I think what just has to happen is like think of something like and I'll use Artblocks as an example where, you know, what happens if the people that get access to the drops are the people that pay royalties all the time.

41:05Right. And so that the less you pay royalties, the lower you fall down on like the allow list or whatever. Right. And so now you're incentivizing people to pay royalties because they want access to the next thing, right? And so I just think we're going to see some sort of framework like that. Uber kind of solved it with the scores. Yeah. You know, if you've got a good score because you're a good community participant and the artist is the same, then that match is a good thing and everybody benefits. And if you don't, you keep falling down the list, as you say. Exactly. And then you have longer wait times and you get lower quality drivers.

41:42Right. And I think the same type of thing is probably what we're going to see over the next few years in the NFT space. I just it just I think the infrastructure to build that out is much harder than it sounds. So it just takes time. Right. And so when you have devs that are building a marketplace and have different incentives, then, you know, if an artist is very prolific and successful, that's great. they have the resources to try to combat it. But if they don't, then all of a sudden they're at the mercy of a marketplace that might not have their best interests at heart. And the other thing I'm trying to think through is whether the token incentive system for Blur is a good thing or a bad thing.

42:21It brings liquidity, but I don't know if that liquidity is a net positive or not, or whether the art market should be illiquid. right yeah i i totally agree with you i i actually just had a call with uh with some people like a few hours ago where we were debating whether uh the blur incentives are actually net positive or net negative that they probably could be paying away less and still be getting the same people participating right i don't know if it's necessarily bringing new new participants into their ecosystem that wouldn't have already been there yeah exactly And, you know, I think that art has a liquidity premium or illiquidity premium, as many rare things do.

43:10And, you know, I think if art blocks solely sold like punks, you can only buy it by the punks website. There's actually some value to that, that you actually don't want a marketplace for everything. Or if you do, you want a private marketplace. It needs to be the Sotheby's auction. It needs to be a private place. To that point is, and I'll pat myself on the back because I convinced Eric and his team to start working on their private marketplace because I built my own using Reservoir. And it was, I mean, we had a live beta test up in like 20 minutes, right? And so I do think you're going to have community-owned marketplaces where it's by the community for the community because that's what we have in the real world already, right?

43:57I want to curate that experience for my community so that when they come in, I don't want them maybe necessarily having an experience that I don't deem fit, right? And maybe on OpenSea, it's not the experience that I want my customer to have, right? I want them to have a better one. And so I think we're going to see probably and I'm trying to work on this and solve it of like, how do we incentivize people to trade on the marketplace so that you start getting that flywheel effect of if you want the best price and the best liquidity, then you just go to that marketplace for that community. Yeah.

44:29Also, if we go back to the traditional world, there's department stores and there's the Gucci store. You know, they're two different experiences. You can still buy some Gucci merchandise in the department store. But what you get in the Gucci main store is exclusivity and a certain sense of exclusivity. And you know that everybody in there is kind of is a fan of Gucci or whatever it is. Right. So there's definitely the examples are there. Not everything has to be a massive marketplace. Right. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I'm not sure what the exact percentages were, but I bet if we went back to 1998, I'm sure eBay had the lion's share of GMV on the internet at that point.

45:10Right. And today it's minuscule and nothing compared to everything that gets sold online. And I think the same thing will happen with these like mega sites, right, where there's a specific type of person that will go there and buy off of there. But I don't think long term, like any brand is going to want to list their products for sale on something where they can't control like every piece of that experience. Yeah. And maybe, for example, you have token gated entry to the marketplace to show you've been a long term holder of something, of certain types of assets. that's a pretty easy way on chain to verify that this is a person worthy.

45:51You know, that's the security guard outside the Gucci store. You know, you're not dressed like you've just come off a construction site. Of course, you can come in, sir. Right. Exactly. Yeah. No, I mean, that's that's like a great idea. Right. And again, that's some sort of reputation. Right. That you can then is transportable where if, let's say, your community and you're doing an NFT drop, somebody from my community, you'd be like, oh, well, this person, oh, they do pay royalties. They're an active member in the 90CC community. Yes, this is the type of person we want in our community, right?

46:26And I think you're going to start seeing more and more of that, especially since all the data is on chain. So what's interesting you in NFT space right now? Because it feels a bit dead. There's been the meme coin explosion going on last year. What's interesting to you out in the whole kind of world right now in terms of collectibles and stuff like that in terms of things that i'm looking out there i i'll say this is i haven't necessarily been uh that actively collecting uh as a whole uh just because i've been trying to to take my time and i've been working on 90cc but i guess from the pfp side of things the two projects that i probably have the most that I'm the most bullish on is probably Pudgy Penguins because I think what Luca and his team over there are doing is really cool with IP and I mean I just think it's like it seems really family friendly and they've scaled businesses before in terms of like direct to consumer and stuff like that and then I mean I really love the energy around D-Gods and Utes as somebody I mean I think I can just identify with a 20, 25 year old guy, um, you know, that's like wrote out and like, you know, trying to have fun and stuff like that.

47:42So I, I love what they're doing there. And I think that there's a lot of energy around those projects. So it's been, it's been exciting to be watching them and, and seeing what they're doing. It's also been good to see stuff happening on other chains, like this mad lads. I've not been involved in it, but it's just, it's good to see something different happening, something new. Cause it was, everything was feeling a bit stale. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I totally agree. Right. And I think that I'm sure you saw this stat where I think there's three auctions currently going on on SuperRare or Foundation or something like that, where it's like there's just been like this lull in the market.

48:20At some point, something's going to give. And I think, you know, your guess is as good as mine is like what starts, you know, the next bull market and like what causes it to happen. And it could just be, you know, do CryptoPunks bottom and, you know, they start leading everything higher. Right. Like I'll just leave CryptoPunks and Squiggles out of the conversation of things I'm bullish on because I think I'm perennially bullish on those two. But I think, you know, the opportunity is trying to find where is the energy, where is the excitement now? Because just like in the stock market, right, like the leaders of every new bull market are going to be different than the ones that led the previous one.

49:00And so you just kind of want to try to identify what those leaders are. and what's your thought process on where yuga labs is because it's getting increasingly complicated they've got a big ambition but it seems to be very focused around gaming right now what what are your thoughts on all of that um to be honest i haven't really been paying that much attention to it because um it to your point is it started like there's more and more assets coming out like every single week. And I just don't know, like if I had$5 ,000 to spend on the Yuga ecosystem right now, and I've been saying this for a while where it's like a lot of these ecosystems get so complicated so quickly that you could have somebody that's like, I want to spend $5 ,000 right now.

49:47And that is a high value customer, right? That's like, this is how much I want to spend right now at this moment. And you're telling me I now need to go and do like six hours of research to figure out what I'm going to do. As a consumer, if I'm going to be spending that much money on something, I kind of want the good, better, best to give me the quick little list. How much am I willing to spend and what are the difference between those three things? And cool, let me make my decision in 15 minutes if I want, or five minutes if I want. But then if I want to research it, of course, I can go down that rabbit hole.

50:20And I just think this has happened this happened to a lot of nft projects right i think uh yugo was fortunate and i think they did a really good job of especially out of the gate it was pretty much like three tiers um but now it's like as they expand the ecosystem things start to get a little more complicated and i think until you have a game that people can see the value of you know what an asset is worth in the game then like it's just like pure speculation right now right yeah but to be honest yugo's done a pretty good job they haven't really failed anything they've done so i kind of i'm just interested in seeing it um but the same thing as you i just find it overly complicated i'm like i don't want to spend 17 hours plugging different wallets doing a game something just to get involved in something to that point right it's like there's some people and i think this will be like in every ecosystem right you're gonna have the people that will dedicate a lot of time right that might not spend as much money but then you're gonna have some people that are like hey, I'm super busy.

51:21I want$20 ,000 worth of exposure to this ecosystem. Just tell me what to buy. I'm going to buy it. And you have to solve for both because I think both of those participants in the ecosystem are important. And so I think everybody is almost like they're mini fed for their project because they have to manage inflation, manage expectations and all of these things and try to make sure that everybody in the community is happy. It's very similar to the position that Jerome Powell is in. Not jealous. And also to build network effects or Metcalfe's law valuation, you need a number of participants. So your TAM needs to be big and you need to have a lot of depth to that network.

52:09So I guess But Ugar are doing that. They've got everything from the ape coin through to these mad fanatics who will play the game 78 times a day to try and get an extra benefit. So let's say it's just fascinating to watch, right? Because it's all an experiment. So final question for you. What are you most excited about over the next 12 months? I mean, honestly, just the things that I'm doing with 9DCC, I think that integrating the tech into our real world lives, to me, is probably the most compelling and interesting things. I think one of the things that we've definitely seen over the last few months is that as the world has opened back up, we're definitely spending less time than when we were all locked up at home in front of our screens.

52:56Even though, you know, compared to 10, 20, 30 years ago, obviously, we're spending more time in front of screens. But I just think that bringing the tech into our everyday lives and doing it in a way that is seamless, right? So that is as close to seamless as our current technology experiences, I think is where we need to go to if we're going to get crypto from where it is at the fringe to something that's mainstream. And I think tech will evolve over time, right? Because I think just like in 1998, if you wanted to share a picture with me online, it was pretty much impossible. And now, you know, you can share a picture online and I can like it with Instagram and my grandmother can do it at this point.

53:38And so I think the same thing is going to happen with the crypto tech where the rails will be hidden. Right. And we're not going to be talking about, oh, this is important because you want to you want to have sovereignty over your assets. And people are just like, oh, this is just really cool and it's easy to use. is to kind of get us to, this is really easy to use, and this is something cool and I want to be a part of. And that's kind of what I'm hoping to do with 90CC. Final, final question, using your trader brain. We're in crypto spring. Where are we in the market? So I - Are you still nervous?

54:13You sound more nervous than I am. No, so like, I think that time-wise, I think we're close to a bottom. I think that we probably need a couple more tests of the Fed's resolve to get them to be like, okay, we got to bring out the bazooka. The question is, is the S &P 10 % lower, 20 % lower? I don't know, right? So that to me is where I think time-wise we're maybe like two, three months away from wherever the bottom is. it's interesting because even with the failures that happened yesterday, right? Like crypto started rallying. So I think a lot of people are starting to see that. And that reminds me, it's starting to remind me a lot of the 2008 bottom where gold and silver rallied really hard six months, like the weekend Lehman went under, that's when gold and silver bottomed.

55:07And then the S &P took another like five or six months to bottom after that. And to me, it's starting to feel really similar where crypto bottomed before crypto is going to bottom it topped before the market top and it seems like it's bottoming before i i think i think people are starting to front run that trade of like you know i i don't even i don't even know if the fed raised rates today but yeah they did and crypto's uh flat but yeah so it's you know people are it's you know no more rate hikes at this point you know the only the only the only way rates are going right now is down and people are starting to front run that trade.

55:45And we had three of what the largest bank failures in the history of the world happened in the first quarter of this year. And we think that's it. So I think we're close. Time wise, I just don't know where it is price action wise, because we haven't had that oh shit moment, right? In equities, but we had it in crypto. Oh, for sure. In crypto, yes. But I think when it happens in equities, I think everybody's going to sell everything for liquidity. And I'm using 2008 as my analogy there because I remember the trade was you wanted to be long gold and silver into all that fiasco, but gold and silver got hammered along with everything else as people raised cash.

56:30So I'm hoping we don't retest anywhere near the lows because of that massive deleveraging that ended up happening that probably keeps the low. But, you know, is it 20 percent lower, 30 percent? I don't know. But I think we're close. I assume you're thinking the same. I think I'm through the other side and thinking all that's coming is stimulus. And so that's why I feel, you know, I use a lot of liquidity measures. They all bottomed in June when ETH bottomed. And then I thought it was a huge signal when this entire space blew up in October and ETH didn't even get close to making a new low, which was like a nice divergence.

57:10And that's always interesting to see. And then it feels that, you know, we're seeing liquidity around the world starting to improve. The Fed balance sheet started growing a bit and crypto has done well. So, yeah, I'm actually more bullish, although we've got this. We've got a real risk of a default in the US because of the debt ceiling and the fact that the Republicans and the Democrats are like on a different planet from each other. Right. So there's a lot more risk than the market imagines there. And the banks are still a mess. Yeah. I mean, so I guess I'll throw in the cabinet. I'm also like probably the most long crypto I've been in the longest time just because there's nowhere else to put my money, right?

57:51Like I don't want to hold the dollar, right? That's super crucial, yeah. Even when, you know, I think the first bank started going under, like I was like, well, I don't want to hold USDC. I don't want to hold USD. Like I just I want to hold unlevered long ETH, right? And that's, you know, it's like there's nowhere else to put money. You know, and I first bought Bitcoin in 2013 at 200 bucks because I'd gone through the European banking crisis and the sovereign crisis. And I had the same realization a lot of people in America are having now. It's like, oh, fuck, I don't own anything. You know, what I think I own in a bank, like money, I don't own.

58:32The bank owns my money. And once you have that realization, it's very easy then to switch into crypto and say, fuck this, I'm just not getting involved in that game. Right. No, I totally agree. So I'd say we're probably on the same, we're definitely both on the same side of the trade here. I think you're just, I'm just like, I think it's just like, just me, it's like, I just haven't seen that like max pain yet. but I don't think we get there in crypto. I think it will be relatively better than obviously the clusterfuck that we saw last year, right? Yeah, we don't want to do that one for a few years.

59:09We've had enough of that. Listen, my friend, fantastic to chat to you. Really enjoyed it. Good luck with everything and we'll touch base on it all again soon. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. Well, that didn't disappoint. G Money, lovely guy, a real pioneer in the space. You know, I love the fact that he didn't kind of believe this is all going to happen to him. But he really is, even though he's very humble, he really is thought of as one of the OGs of the whole kind of NFT Web3 movement. Because not only was he an investor in the space, he saw the opportunity, but he's been working with brands, driving brands, advising brands, now building his own brand.

59:48And I love the fact that he's built his own brand as a Web3 native person, but he's built a physical brand and then built Web3 around it, which I think is a different way than we've seen many people in this space. So look, it's super interesting. I think he's wrong about the equity market, but, you know, he can't get everything right. Anyway, hope you enjoyed it.

1:00:18The investment newsletter service highlights the next winners coming in cryptocurrency tokens and equities. Get special access today at phenomcrypto.com slash realvision. That's phenomcrypto.com slash realvision.