Why The Next Phase of Crypto Is Bigger Than You Think w/ Blue Macellari

25:28Raoul Pal:Yeah, I mean, I've talked about this. It's like, I don't know what computer you're on, what Wi-Fi network you're on, what operating system you're running. It doesn't matter. It just works. I click, you know, open on the video and you pop up and you don't know my end. So it needs to be that. That's interoperable. Yeah. And it needs to be seamless. For the most part, crypto has matured to a point where everybody who is going to get here through code is already here. Everybody who is going to get here through like sort of hardcore tech, they're already here. and they're willing to brave the, you know, discord at two o 'clock in the morning, whatever it is.

26:05I totally get that I'm not your typical crypto demographic. I'm okay with that. But I'm a middle-aged mom of three and I'm pretty willing to show up and try things. So like I run my entire family cell phone plan. We moved it all to Helium. Like, you know, I have a hive mapper and then au pair's car. like the whole thing. I'm about as crypto forward as you get for, you know, among the mom set. And you're not going to find that with the rest of the people. And so we are not making products, products, apps, utility interface that brings the marginal non-tech, hardcore tech person in, there is no path to adoption.

26:55No, no.

26:57Raoul Pal:Because in the end, it should be the rails for the entire financial system and a bunch of other things like identity and provenance. And there's a whole bunch of things that we've kind of even stalled on right now because nobody's really talking about identity properly. With all of the AI going on, it should be top of mind. people have stopped with the whole idea of web 3 the read write own idea that's stalled as well yeah um it's just a little sad i like i hope it picks back up but um but yeah no we have saw like we've solved on a lot of those things um identity and often the way that i explain it internally is blockchain is not great for everything it's not perfect for everything um there are plenty things that can and should be done on a database, right?

27:43Blockchain is fantastic for anything that is complex, difficult, or needs to be securely moved, transferred, and represented across internal and external parties, right? And that's a huge swath of things, like the identity piece um is critical and like yeah I've become very I become increasingly concerned about yeah I just become more and more concerned about AI pretty much every day but um but I just don't understand how we're not working more focused on identity I went through this realization what was

28:24Raoul Pal:coming in 2021. And I got together some of the kind of senior folks at Amazon, Meta, LinkedIn, Microsoft, which is LinkedIn as well. Who else? A whole bunch of them. And I got them on the call and said, listen, you're all kind of working on the crypto side in those big Google as well. And I said, listen, AI is coming. We desperately need digital ID. And it needs to be on chain. It needs to have a provenance, all of that. They said, absolutely. I said, because what is going to happen is we're going to have fake content looking like me, doing stuff that I've not sanctioned. And it's going to be the Wild West.

29:09Raoul Pal:And you guys are going to get sued like the banks did after 2008. And you'll be sued for a decade over this. And they're like, yes. And I said, so let's get together and build a common standard. And they said, we'd love to, but we're never going to agree each other's credentials. They don't want improbability. So Microsoft was saying, we're not going to take Amazon's credentialization. And I'm like, can you not agree something? No. So I said, do you understand where this leads is you will end up getting sued. And they're like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's really incredible. But not surprising, right?

29:48Not surprising, but I will add that to the list of other things that concern me, right? This growing list. But I also think it concerns me that I think many regular people who are outside this industry or outside AI or maybe even outside finance are not deeply and profoundly concerned about AI. I feel like the general public hasn't gotten to the point where they know to sue yet.

30:15Raoul Pal:They just have no clue of how far this has gone and how urgently important it is. And government's too slow for AI. I mean, we were used to Metcalfe's law in crypto, which was fast. You know, to go through that exponential curve is quite something. This is that squared. It's Reed's law. The first example doesn't appear in biology. It's happening in AI. I mean, it's staggering. And so no government can keep up with this. No, especially not our government, not the US government. But yeah, I think it's a little terrifying. One of my portfolio managers was like the leading analyst. It's good. We really balance each other out.

30:59But he has a master's in AI. And probably every fourth phone call, you know, every fourth call, we wind up like steering off into AI. And then I'm like, I like, stop, we have to like, we have to put a lid on it because I'm not gonna be able to sleep tonight. And I'm just going to be terrified about this like end of days. And, um, you know, and we saw the breakout, we saw that we saw the rogue attack. And I was like, so what you're saying is that the AI broke out, broke out in order to cheat on its homework. I was like, so tell me AI is like a teenager without telling me it's a teenager, but it's, um, the element of self-reporting that is required by the AI firms.

31:46Like, they share with us, okay, this has happened. Something's escaped the lab. And the fact that it's like sort of a voluntary self-reporting.

31:59Raoul Pal:Well, how else are you going to do it? It's moving too fast. I mean, you see the new frontier model every two weeks right now. Yeah. and from my measurements compounding, intelligence is compounding. It's like doubling every five months, the efficiency of intelligence output. There's no way. We've never dealt with anything like this. I mean, the only way to do it is have a holy shit moment. Guys, guys, this is what's happened to us, which is what they're doing. Elon spoke about this last week. He's like, what are we supposed to do here? All we can do is kind of tell each other we've got a problem with something.

32:38Raoul Pal:Tell the U.S. government and say, listen, or we've got, and you're seeing OpenAI doing it now and anthropically forwards, like, okay, we've got a new class of model. This is a lot more powerful. You guys need to check it out first. And in the end, the U.S. government will get to use it for a month or three months first to use it for their own needs. And then you release the model. Yeah, I mean, I think it just, but I think that we should all be, I'm going to sound like a crazy person, we should all be very suspicious, right? That it is all sort of self-reported and the assumption is that they're reporting things that are, like they're letting people know when something important has happened and something's escaped the lab, right?

33:21but there's a huge element of trust there that I don't I personally am don't really have at this point and I so I you know and I don't I don't know that there's a solution I don't I don't think there's any way to successfully or coherently or intelligently regulate it at a government level I mean I just don't think that that's a true option in a feasible way

33:44Raoul Pal:and there's so much game theory at play here I mean don't forget anthropic is the largest fastest scaling of revenues in any company in human history the game is so big and then it's the game of the us versus china that it becomes when i look at it from sort of game theory perspectives impossible to stop it is and it's a horrible outcome from a game theory perspective like it it's getting to the worst possible place as as quickly as humanly possible as quickly as possible by machine right it's that that combination so knowing in like a game theory context it's a terrifying outcome which is one of the things that keeps me up at night um but uh you know i so i i just um i think i selectively like choose to put my blinders back on and i go back to my like go back to my world because i don't you know what else what else do you do i'm the opposite i just kind of throw myself into it and say well we're along for the ride it's going to happen there's nothing i or you or any government or anybody can do about this even elon said he said i tried i gave up i just joined it and it's like so this is the most extraordinary time in human history to be alive we've birthed intelligence that is beyond our own and we're going to put agi into physical form into robots.

35:08Raoul Pal:And we are not ready for this because we're going to have smarter, stronger, faster, cheaper intelligence carriers with dexterity. And they're going to be scalable beyond anything we understand. And that's three years away. And no ethical, no ethical boundaries, right? um like optimizing without ethics is a terrifying idea i mean that's the piece that scares me right i mean if if you could if there was a way to include the ethics i mean without going off the deep end of all of this what are our ethics versus chinese ethics versus somebody else's ethics what ethics are these things going to have themselves the point being my my point being is I think all layers of intelligence are built upon each other and they, you need a symbiosis.

36:02Raoul Pal:Like we, if we destroy the planet, which is the layer of intelligence beneath us, we're dead. And if AI kills us, it's dead because you need the kind of compute of all the other layers. So it's a longer conversation about this stuff, but it is. It's not going to kill us. Now, one of the things I remember sort of at the fairly early on during the Iran conflict, there was a there was an Imperial War College study that was released on like AI across models participating in war games. Like nine out of 10, they like go nuclear. Like they haven't like and they get there within like three or four steps.

36:44that's like becomes the optimal outcome is always they just like go straight for the nuclear weapons and and it was across models um and and then even when you tried to input like you know this is bad for humans like like you would kill you know x many innocent people civilians that no didn't matter and that to me is like is is that piece that you can't to me it's still a leap of faith We don't wind up killing off the intelligence layer underneath us, which is a very dark thing to say, I think. Sorry.

37:20Raoul Pal:So a quick break in your regular programming. If you're serious about your future, grab my free report called Prepare for 2030. I think you've got five years to make as much money as possible. And this guide will help you navigate what's coming. The link is in the description. Download it now. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I just, I'm much more optimistic about the whole thing. While I see the risks, I think normally the good outcome is the one that prevails. Humans are pretty messy creatures anyway, or pretty messy compute. We like killing each other. We like taking each other's resources. We do all sorts of weird things anyway, which most other animals don't do, but we do.

38:04Yeah, I mean, I...

38:08Raoul Pal:But we haven't managed to destroy everything is the point. Correct. I was at Lehman during the bankruptcy. And then I went on to do distressed debt. And I come from like a debt, like a fixed income debt background, not an equity. Equity people are like, it's going to be okay. Let's all look on the upside. It'll be fantastic. You know, like everybody will have lots of extra time because the AI is doing your work. And I'm like, the machines are going to kill us all. That's like the fixed income. That's like where fixed income people go. and especially distressed people are like you know like it's like armageddon is where you go well because i was the same in macro i made all of my money in bear markets and i had to retrain my entire thinking process when i realized that this this kind of technological trend because i kind of scoffed at nasdaq and stuff and like oh these guys are all kind of they're smoking the hopium and then after a while i realized that i was so wrong and i actually had to flip my entire mindset from looking for crashes to looking for buying opportunities and looking forward to when the market fell uh it was hard exactly exactly i am i had a cio um at elliot and he used to always say the most expensive thing you can be in our business is rigid and it's like it's so true like you have to be able to sort of take the opposite view you need to be able to push yourself, you cannot get wedded to a position or viewpoint or an outlook where you just can't, like, it's just too expensive to be rigid, right?

39:47That's the most important lesson, I think, that, like, I learned in that process.

39:52Raoul Pal:So when you're looking out across crypto markets, which have been kind of low volatility, sort of boring sideways markets for a while now, where are we, where's the opportunity? So I think... On the investing side, not the building side, yeah. Yeah, I think I very much like and continue to see a lot of opportunity in, I'm going to call it, on-chain finance, on-chain RWA slash tokenization slash on-chain finance, like the whole umbrella. Yeah. And. And this is also actually, I think, part of one of the reasons that markets haven't been great the past year is I think that we told told people for ages, institutions are coming, institutions are coming.

40:39everybody's going to tokenize everything institutions are coming and then we said oh my god the institutions are here because we've got like you know big announcements people are doing this people are doing that and and they haven't i think the average sort of investor or the person in the crypto market has not seen that translate into like increased network throughput increase right um which is try to move super slow like institutions are here and institutions are building we're just not fast right um and and crypto markets are not necessarily that patient. And I think they've not known for their patients.

41:13And so we haven't seen it translate. But it is so clear to me the extent to which things are moving on chain. So all anybody wants to talk about is how we're getting to 24-7 trading in US equities. And guess what? You know how that's going to happen it's got to be on chain because people don't understand that the dtcc clears

41:42Raoul Pal:i don't know a quadrillion two quadrillion stupid numbers this is what's coming for block space is all of this and there's like there's a lot of work to be done right like these are these are all sort of like people are figuring out the pilots and like they you know there's it's a slower process, especially when we talk about sort of functioning mainstream traditional markets, being able to transition on chain, everything has to be done as like a sidecar, as a pilot, because you can't mess with the stuff that actually works and like literally powers the global economy. So you can't tinker with it while it's in action.

42:16So it's got to be over here and separate. And you have a bunch of firms, again, much like your example of all of those like big tech firms, they have to come together and you have to agree industry standards, right? So you You have dozens of broker-dealers, you have dozens of asset managers, you have so many different people who have to come together and agree on what that industry standard looks like and how we sort of do that collectively in order to transition. And so it's not going to be fast and it is not going to be incremental. It will be experimental and then sort of all at once. but between that so it's like payments tokenization like chain suited for for tokenization i love you know hyperliquid um i think the number of phone calls that i've gotten from sort of traditional hedge fund managers or cios they're saying like oh yeah like oh i hadn't spoken them in six months and they're like hey so i'm watching this hype what do you think about this hype stuff You know, so I think that we have hit a point where much of traditional finance is beginning to understand and see the functionality that has developed in crypto markets that would be phenomenal to introduce to traditional markets.

43:41I mean, think about think about the way mainstream people are getting excited about perps. Right. Think about the way. Right. So all of these prediction markets.

43:50Raoul Pal:I mean, that's one good thing is I've seen, to see the rate of innovation and speed of adoption that Robinhood has been doing. Vlad has done an astonishing job there, astonishing how fast they're moving. And that's pushing everybody else to move faster. It's pushing Coinbase to try and move faster because they're pretty slow for what should be a more nimble organization. and then it's causing others to as well, which is good. And that came from hype. Vlad is obviously very aware of hype and everything else. But yeah, it's coming, but it's coming from retail again. It is. And I'm a huge fan of Robinhood.

44:30And what is fascinating is they are transforming both sides of the aisle. So they're coming for everybody, right? So they're coming for your traditional platforms. They're coming for your crypto side. So they are applying pressure on both sides and have accelerated movement on both sides, on the TradFi side and on the sort of FinTech crypto side.

44:59Raoul Pal:And the wealth management side and the asset management side all at the same time. It's like... Yeah, and their customer base is maturing, right? So they're starting to move into like, okay, well, how do we offer services for people who are now maybe married and have kids or like are actually thinking about retirement. And so they are expanding into that territory, historically very much dominated by more traditional shops and more traditional platforms. And like when you look at the numbers, like one of the things that's just absolutely amazing and it's consistent study after study after study is the way that the demographics split on sort of who has traditional brokerage accounts and who has like a FinTech, right, app account.

45:44And as you skew younger or more people, like their first experience is digital. They hold like more digital assets than they do, you know, mutual funds. All of these different things. And it's been really interesting to see that demographic component sort of play out very much through Robinhood. And I think that the pressure it's putting on the rest of the industry in all directions is fantastic for the industry in terms of evolving.

46:16Raoul Pal:What is it? What signal do you take from that from what you should be doing at Tiro? You know, because you have retail, you have institutional products, you have all of the things. What signal do you get from all of this that you need to do? Because on one hand, you're crypto native and you'll want to move faster. The other hand, it's quite difficult to move. But this product innovation can come. there's a lot of kind of complexity in this it is um i think it's so we have um we're also sort of in the midst of of really being thoughtful about how we approach tokenization um and up until now so for the first several years when you saw like 28 2018 2019 like sort From all the way through probably last year, the technology continued to get faster, more efficient, cheaper.

47:09So essentially, you could now tokenize something. What would have cost you$15 million, 100 people in two and a half years to do four years ago, you can, I always say, if it's like a Build-A-Bear workshop or whatever, and it's like you can go to Securitize, you'd be like, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, and this chain, and it does this, and boom, boom, boop, and out pops the tokenized fund. So tokenization as a service has really advanced, which makes it a really interesting question, which is why are you tokenizing what you're tokenizing? Like, who are you trying to reach? What do they want? It is a tool.

47:43And so it is much more about thinking through who you are trying to reach in the right type of product for them, rather than saying like, oh, it's like a huge, it's not an ops conversation. It's not a tech conversation. It's a business strategy conversation. them. And the other piece is, is that much of the legacy, sort of what is the bulk of business now, and then ultimately over time becomes sort of the legacy business is not going to go away. You can still go out and write and mail a paper check in the mail if you want to, like you could get out a checkbook and send someone a check. And the whole thing, I mean, somebody asked, like, we were buying a house and I had to find a check.

48:29And I was like, Like, oh my God, I think I had to call the bank and be like, can you issue me new checks? But, because who has that anymore? I can't remember the last time I wrote a check. Yeah, exactly, right? You're like, where's my checkbook? I was like, and you can still do that. And banks, it is still going to be probably decades before banks eliminate that capability, even though nobody uses it, but you can't just mothball it. So you have to maintain these things that sort of phase out as legacy. modes of operation. But one of the things I'm very much focused on is thinking through when people operate on-chain and when people prefer a 24-7 on-chain experience, people who are used to trading from their phone, who are used to settling instantly, who are surprised when they find a mutual fund and the money's not there for three days, they think something went wrong and they're calling in, right?

49:29What do those people want to invest in?

49:32Raoul Pal:But what's also weird is I see the other way around, which is, what can I force down the throats of retail investors by tokenizing? Because I've run out of buyers for credit funds or private credit and stuff like that, right? And I worry there's a mismatch. It's like, I've never met a real estate guy who has not said I'm interested in tokenization. But on the other side, I've never met a retail investor who really cares about buying tokens on a share of some illiquid building in wherever, but they're just looking like they just want to dump their assets into a new market. So we've got to be careful.

50:13Raoul Pal:I think the point being is who are you developing product for, why and how? There's real innovation, real opportunity, but it's not just tokenizing everything that exists no and i i mean i do think that's important i mean i think people people have since the dawn of time tried to introduce liquidity into things where there is no liquidity yeah we see that a lot every time every time in fact it blows up in the end yes and it just can't be done i think um there is that question of like oh well this is you know this is how we reach these like additional marginal retail investors who want who want juicy yield and we put it in a tokenized format and one of two things happens.

50:58You either don't change the underlying terms and conditions of what is a non-marketable fund, i.e. like it's a quarterly or monthly redemption and there's a gating and that is how those funds work and that's how they should work and that's how they're able to generate the returns they do. It is that sticky capital structure.

51:13Raoul Pal:And you can put that in a smart contract. You totally can. But then people need to understand that that is what they are getting. Just because it came out of blockchain doesn't mean that it changes the underlying. Or what's even more concerning is people will buy that, right, and structure it in such a way that they are packaging the economic interest, right, and they are essentially trying to create a secondary market where you don't have an abstract every day, where you don't know what the underlying value is. And I think we'll see. That doesn't end well, especially when you introduce infinite looping.

51:55Then it becomes like a real powder keg. But you are going to wind up, this is where people introduce counterparty risks and take on counterparty risks that they don't know about or don't understand. around. And the piece that I think is really interesting is if you talk to a portfolio manager at a private equity fund or an alternatives fund, they do not want their stuff to mark to market daily. No, no. Right? Like that's a big part of what they do. That's right.

52:26Raoul Pal:It is to have a zero volatility structure with things that actually volatile underneath is the arbitrage. Exactly. And then they don't want to send an investor letter to like every guy who held the token for 30 seconds one day. I mean, they don't like, right? Like you get an investor letter is like stamped to you. Like they are very protective of that intellectual property of the underlying, like of what their activity is, which is not a fair use. It's how that type of investment works. And so I wonder if we at some point see pushback from the actual PMs themselves. but you just can't safely introduce liquidity where it doesn't exist.

53:09Raoul Pal:No, but anything with liquidity, anything fixed income related that's relatively liquid, you know, yield products, fantastic. You know, a lot of those products are going to be better than, as you said, the looped, you know, yield farming products that are on DeFi. And people can then have a choice about where they get yield from, what the risk factor is, all of equities anything basically homogenous should be on chain it's the fastest most efficient way of transferring and custodying assets you know all of that should come um but we don't have to tokenize illiquid real estate um as the first thing yeah and it's funny because still when you see like still oftentimes people say um oh well like one of the main sort of compelling arguments for tokenization it brings like it brings greater accessibility and liquidity to illiquid asset classes.

54:00And it was like, well, it brings greater accessibility and the illusion of greater liquidity, but it doesn't actually create liquidity where there is none, right?

54:07Raoul Pal:And are you finding that there are now institutional clients who will take tokenized stuff? So, you know, like, you know, I talk to Sandy Call a lot. She's a good friend at Franklin. And, you know, it takes a while because you tokenize some yield products. And now you've got to get your customers to actually buy it because they're not retail-led, they're institutional-led. So they have to then build the crypto rails to actually get used to this stuff. I mean, everyone's doing it, but it's slow, right? It is slow. It is slow, and it's a lot of education, right? When you think about sort of the due diligence rubric that any of those sort of, especially at the institutional level, any of the terms would go through, it's a big lift.

54:54one of the things that I have found really interesting is I want to say over the past six months I have probably done 15 or 20 board presentations on tokenization and staple coins so what kind of companies like very like our large institutional um our large institutional clients so we have a a very very big part of it so we're 1.8 trillion dollar asset manager a large portion are retirement assets where we had, you know, people have 401ks and we administer the retirement program. And what is happening is that these companies, their boards are like hearing about tokenization and like it's become like a buzzword and they're sort of not really sure what it means and they want to get up to speed.

55:39And there has been a real movement for different, and it's all independent of each other. It's been like one sort of inbound, hey, somebody from a board called and they want to know if you can come do a teaching on tokenization. And I have been surprised by how much the sort of pace picked up very, very quickly. Like I was like, I had never been asked to do it. Six months ago, it was asked the first time.

56:04Raoul Pal:And then it's just like, I imagine that the treasury operations of large corporations are also, I mean, I spoke to, I don't know, a whole bunch of them in the past. And they were starting to get interested in this. And the other people who are so obvious to me, and it's not really happened yet, is the massive commodity trading firms. Because they have assets tied up in Angola to Tanzania to French New Guinea, all sorts of places. And they've got capsule controls to get around. They've got vast amounts of money sloshing around. And they might as well just have an internal stablecoin rails. And they can move money around from entity to entity.

56:48Raoul Pal:no problem. I'm surprised that's not happened at scale yet. That one does surprise me as well. Brazil has started doing it. Brazil is actually unbelievably crypto forward. It does not get enough credit, but incredibly crypto forward. I actually have a friend who's a head trader for LATAM for one of the like very big commodities firms um and he's in a trading role obviously and and a few different times i've been like why aren't you guys using so like i what is the rationale like are you guys having conversations about it like are you like are you thinking about it but you just haven't gotten there or and and he's like nope nope we're not nobody's looking at it um well well well louis drafus and a bunch of the soft commodity houses have did it in 2017 they basically or 16 they basically use smart contracts now for all the letters of credit the shipping the whole lot so they can move this stuff around really fast but it's not taken off elsewhere yet it's bizarre yeah um there was actually like a i don't know if you remember there's a really interesting it was city it was city and it was um trade financing and they had the smart contract triggered by i'm gonna forget which canal but whatever canal it was um they like it was triggered by the gps like essentially like the the oracle brought in that um the ship had passed through the canal based on like the gps reading so that was like the verification and then the trade financing was released in to me um especially especially when you have um multi-jurisdictional pieces uh and the cost of capital is so high internally as a result i don't understand why there hasn't been a greater adoption there in my previous life as an equity derivative salesman And early in my career, Cargill were one of our clients because they run this huge balance sheet and have so much excess capital.

59:08Raoul Pal:And one of the things they were doing was doing something in South Africa and they get stuck with rand that they couldn't move. At the time, there was the dual rand system, the financial rand, the commercial. And so we used to do the index arb for them because they would be stuck with this capital. And it was a way of getting capital out. All of these things they have to do. And I'm like, all of this could just go so quickly now. I know. And yeah, I mean, like you look at historically like Argentina with the blue ship swap raid, the same thing. Yeah, it's it is interesting. I mean, I don't know why more firms haven't adopted it as a really effective internal cash management tool.

59:46And I wonder if it's more so that the people who are typically in those roles are not, their coverage from like Southside banks is just not in a position yet to be pitching those as products. Like there's not an opportunity there that they can capitalize on yet.

1:00:08Raoul Pal:And there's always somebody being paid to therefore recycle the capsule in a different way. so there's somebody making the money out of this arbitrage in South Africa or you know so I mean they're very smart people as we know they figure out how to get their cost of capital down as low as possible so there's a bunch of people's jobs that don't want that to happen I guess as well yes exactly right so I mean they'd be cannibalizing their own their own business um but yeah it's you know it's usually you're especially when you have a huge like multi so you know uh multinational global sort of conglomerate that does something that operates across so many different, you know, 20 different currencies.

1:00:45And they have enormous sell side, like bank relationships. And those are the people who are sort of constantly coming through the door, pitching them on cash management and all of the tools. And I think that maybe, it may be the case that stable coins are not in that arsenal yet.

1:01:02Raoul Pal:Well, because you make more money selling currency options. Of course. Exactly. Of course. So if you're watching from a large global multinational company, please call us and we'll do a walkthrough on why you should be doing this with open interoperable stable coins, and you're going to save a ton of money and time. Blue, listen, fabulous conversation. Really enjoyed it. I think we could have talked a lot longer, but let's see where this goes. It would be nice to get a bit of liquidity back in crypto because I think we've all taken our penance for getting overexcited. earlier, as you said. And maybe it's our time again soon.

1:01:39I think so. I think so. Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure to talk today.

1:01:44Raoul Pal:Yeah, fantastic. We'll get you back on at some point and catch up with where you are. Sounds good. What I love about somebody like Blue is this commonality of language of understanding. She's lived through the emerging market crisis. She understands the lens with which to look through crypto. It's volatile. It's nascent. It's an emerging market itself. It's a frontier market. And so once you use that lens, you understand it better. But she really understands the space itself and also where it should go, where it's going. She shares the frustrations and also the joy of seeing where it is today.

1:02:18Raoul Pal:But I really enjoy these conversations. I hope you did too. And I'll see you next time. You obviously enjoyed the episode because you're here with me at the end. But listen, don't forget to go to realvision.com forward slash join and grab a free membership. It's an incredible community packed with alpha, great investment ideas, and the research that you need to help you unfuck your future. So get started now. Go to realvision.com forward slash join.