The big SearchNorwichXL 2026 preview

0:04Jack Chambers-Ward: Hello and welcome to this very special episode of Search with Candor. I am one of your hosts, Jack Chambers-Ward, and I'm joined by my regular co-host, Mr. Mark Williams-Cook. Hello, sir. Welcome back, Mark. It's been a little while since you've recorded together. It's nice to have you back on. It's been a long time since we, I don't think, have we ever done like a remote one together? I think this is the first time. I don't think you and I have ever done remote. Yeah. It feels weird. We're in Candor studio. but it's nice to have you back on and we're going to be talking all about our upcoming conference search norwich excel which is happening on the 24th of september and basically we're going to go through a little bit of a preview we're going to talk about some talks we're really looking forward to give you an idea of what you can expect on the day and all that good stuff and if you are listening to this on monday when it comes out on the 24th of august you have less than 24 hours to get our general price tickets.

0:57That's£125 before the prices go up to£175 tomorrow. So if you were listening or watching on the day, on the 24th, go to searchnorwich.org, find us on Eventbrite, I'll put links in the show notes, go and get your tickets now and save yourself 50 quid because it's worth it. And£125 is a great price for 12 amazing speakers that we're going to have throughout the day. We've got eight talks, a panel of four, which we'll be getting to in a minute and mark i think you wanted to kick off with our very first talk of the day right that's your first pick yes absolutely so it's going to be arnold hellman's and i must say i love that you pre-calculated when the show is coming out versus when the ticket price goes true professional true professional jack thanks so yeah i was like this is my job i wanted to talk about a few of these different speakers obviously we've got a great lineup um i just wanted to i guess go into some more detail for people especially that are thinking about coming or wondering what they might get from the event especially if they haven't been to this kind of thing before because it is pretty much at least for a long time the first event of its kind um in Norwich and a lot of the speakers are our friends or people we know in the industry and people we trust and people we've seen speak before and this is reflected I think in Arnaut's talk so Arnaut is not someone who's going to just throw together some slides to go to a conference Arnout has been texting me now for three to four months just randomly at 10 o 'clock at night I'll get a five-page document of output which is research he's been doing or he'll randomly phone me or something which just shows the amount of effort he's going putting into this talk so So it's obviously in line with the actual work he's delivering.

3:08So that's, I think, a commonality with a lot of really great SEOs, which is when they're presenting this kind of research, they're posting things online, you know, like when I share things on LinkedIn, these aren't just random, superfluous oddities normally that I find interesting. It's because it's generally involved with the work we're doing and finding new, better ways to do it. looking at data finding insight so one thing i'm confident about with i think all of these talks but especially this one from iron out because i've had so much direct feedback as to what's going into it is this isn't going to be a talk where you have seen anything like this before somewhere else his talk is called the serps hold more insight than you think and his kind of blurb was we spend thousands on software subscriptions, yet we often neglect the most important SEO tool, the search engine results page.

4:11So I don't wanna steal his thunder, obviously, as to kind of the key points, but the premise, I guess, of the talk is that there's some very, very important information that you can fetch at scale from search result pages around, specifically in this case he's using brands and you can tie this to a much larger picture which links to llms and ai search visibility about how that brand is perceived and as well what people are thinking about it so he sent me some examples um where he's he's run this kind of process he's done on a brand and he can basically produce a report just from the data that he finds on the SERP so in this example he's got this brand I won't name the brand but he's saying the feedback and this is the other cool thing he's doing this research in the US he's using also asked for this research because he's doing the research across multiple cities

5:23Mark Williams-Cook: because the us is quite vast sometimes the perception people have of a brand the even the things they want are different from one side of the states to the other much like how you know in in europe for instance different brands mean different things in different countries or rather the same brand means different things different countries so he's he's saying okay the first question associated with this brand in six of the cities is what is the brand name uh controversy and in five of those six google answers with a gov uh website which is like a product safety commission um the it's talking about which brands are regularly compared to this brand and which brands that they named as competitors that are never compared to them where that happens in different city in different cities he's highlighted what the deepest anxieties of the brand are um so it's not in this case about price or safety of this product most of the questions the anxiety questions around if it's been discontinued and what the rarest versions of this brand are and are they leaving soon so it gives you really interesting insight into especially when you go to a client and talk to them about their brand and be like what do you want to be known for what are your what's your mission what's your values because that's the thing that they're trying to as stole with all of their marketing right this is a way to grab essentially the zeitgeist and compare it to what the brand thinks it is and highlight the differences and therefore you can inform your strategy on a regional level so you can say well in these regions actually people are worried about this thing or in this country they're worried mainly about price and in this place they don't understand the heritage of our brand which is really important so Arnout has built constructed tested this whole workflow what data sources you need to do this at pretty rapid speed as far as I see so I'm really excited to see that because I know it's something he's been testing a lot a lot a lot and the data he's been sending me looks really really good like this is stuff you would have paid tens of thousands for from uh from another agency like only you know five six years ago so super super excited to to see Arnaut uh open the conference with that yeah I know something

7:54Jack Chambers-Ward: we've said about Arnaut before is I feel like every time I see him speak or even if I just have a conversation with him I'm learning something new obviously he's been on the show before and we've had many conversations with him at conferences and things like that and I remember him coming to us with the idea of like oh what kind of topic should i talk about i've got some ideas i remember both of us being like that one that sounds really cool and really interesting and he even was uh when he did a the video for us on our social media page it was uh still on holiday and still doing research which i appreciate about he's just always working always digging into the data which i always appreciate about now so who's uh who's your first pick.

8:36Jack Chambers-Ward: I'm going to kick off with another speaker I've seen quite a few times before and has been on the show before, Julia Panozzo from Neuroscientive. And it's a particularly interesting topic because I think Julia brings a different perspective than a lot of people when it comes to search and how user behavior affects what we do and how we search and how we convert and all that kind of stuff. The title of Julia's talk is Beyond the Query, How Emotional Brand signals influence clicks and conversions and having spoken to julia this is basically a study that she did where she analyzed how humans react to ai generated content versus human created content and actually it's less about you know the the wording or the specific like imagery or anything like that it's way more based on emotional reactions how your nervous system reacts to stuff rather than whether it's human or AI generated.

9:37Because obviously there's a huge debate in the industry right now, right? Oh, how much will AI content rank? I know Ahrefs did a study a little while ago that was 5 % of top three ranking positions were 100 % AI generated. Then it was top five was 80 plus percent and all this kind of stuff. But actually when it comes to things like conversions and buying products and services, it's still very much about how you viscerally react to things and how you emotionally react to things, which is marketing 101, right? Way pre-internet marketing. That is classic old school marketing. Get people to feel something.

10:15That's why things like clickbait and rage baiting work and all this kind of stuff. You're getting that reaction from the viewer, from the listener. And Julia has some, I had a chat with Julia the other day about some really interesting data that she's got about this study. kind of went wrong as well, which I thought was very interesting. There were some really interesting sides of what you might think would happen. And actually the opposite happens pretty much always in the case of like psychological studies and things like that. So I think it's bringing in a nice like psychological neuroscience aspect to search.

10:51I know you've seen Julia speak as well, Mark. And it's always a really interesting, I'm a big science nerd.

10:58Jack Chambers-Ward: I love this kind of stuff. and I think Tulig always brings a really really cool perspective and some really interesting data as well. Yeah I was going to say it's always interesting when we get like real scientists in to talk about neuroscience things like this because I think the SEO industry sometimes is a little bit guilty of not quite staying in in their lane in in terms of oh I've done this study and then you know again I'm not a scientist but I've seen some studies which I think that's a very generous term to call them those things. So yeah, I've seen Julia speak before. It's one of my favorite speakers.

11:36So I'm really excited. She's coming here. I was having actually the kernel of a thought the other day, which I wanted to discuss with Julia, which was this, I was thinking about AI search and brands, and there is a pretty well documented effect about when you're exposed to something like a brand over and over as long as you're not having a negative experience with it that helps build your trust right and that's i think maybe an evolutionary thing of you know you've encountered this flower this animal whatever before lots of times and it hasn't hurt you therefore it's it's okay i think that's tied in as well to um again it's super well documented the how people will put more effort into losing into risk aversion rather than gaining

12:31Mark Williams-Cook: something so you'll put more effort into saving x amount of value than you would trying to trying to gain it it's just kind of how we're wired we want to protect what we've got and we're a bit suspicious of new things and i was thinking about this in context to ai ai content whether it's images whether it's text because i was thinking about the clawed watermarking thing because I think lots of people have developed now that I don't want to call it sixth sense for when something is AI content right you can kind of it just feels very uniform you're reading it and you're like okay I think this is this is AI and it it felt to me almost like the antithesis to this if it's familiar it's safe it feels like it's turning that on its head in that when I'm seeing these images now because again you can still tell with images you can still tell mostly with text when they're at least when they're badly done ai generated and it feels familiar and now that feels a little revolting to me like i want the slightly every event poster around at the moment exactly the same yeah um and i was wondering yeah it was just a thought i don't know where that idea is going about if that um whereas before you kind of want your brand in in many different ways to feel familiar to make it feel safe now whether i think i heard tabby use this the other day friction maxing um yeah so you want to create a little bit of friction to make people stop and make it feel a bit different again that's always kind of been a thing in marketing that you want to like stand out um but i feel it's slightly different now because it's not just you want to do one thing to stand out you need to have a little bit of a sharp edge or whatever to to differentiate yourself anyway i will lend julia's ear about that when i see her at the conference i think

14:27Jack Chambers-Ward: definitely definitely it's funny you should mention the friction and the kind of slightly going against the grain thing if something came up when i had uh mark salisbury our design lead and Brendan Bennett, who I'll mention later on, there's a little spoiler for you, our principal SEO consultant as well, talking about how brand often feels like it needs to be a bit different and push out there and do something different, all that kind of stuff. Whereas a lot of times, if you're going very data-led, you can, like you said, what's safe, especially if you're using LLM and kind of taking that aggregated, averaged kind of data and stuff like that.

15:03Jack Chambers-Ward: And yeah, to really kind of, again it feels like we're coming back around to so many like fundamental marketing discussions even if it is at the kind of cutting edge of what what digital marketing is feeling like it's like yeah we're still talking about brand and how people react to things and and if do you need to be pushing the boundaries or being a bit safer and things like that um what's next for you mark what's your next pick i'll just tail off on that i mean it's one conversation we've had uh internally as well just in terms of of services so you know candor in its very very very very young infancy when it was still called applin skinner was originally like a design and brand agency and we've kept the design team and you know we've got um we still got a lot of specialism in brand and we've been having a lot of discussions recently about tying more of that brand skill set into the SEO pipeline just in the fact that especially like SMEs when we're talking to them about where they want to get to aspirationally kind of online they don't have necessarily the brand collateral and

16:11Mark Williams-Cook: understanding that they need to do that in a robust way it's more of kind of a vague idea so it's actually something now that's becoming integral to the start of the SEO campaigns rather than just kind of being like yeah brand is important do brand it's actually sitting down and helping them if they haven't got it figure out their brand identity get a proper tone of voice like make all these things uh come together so yeah and that's been driven i think as you rightly said by the the technologies kind of catching up with the 200 000 years of homo sapien psychology that's been gently bubbling in the background anyway at the other end of this discussion scale my second talk pick was by adam gent who amusingly describes himself as the best technical seo you've never heard of which i think is fair i think it's actually quite fair um to be honest that adam is is super smart but i can rarely recall seeing him kind of posting a lot um i don't think he's really speaking a lot at conferences.

17:20However, he worked on the technical side of SEO for like 15 years. He was a product manager at Deep Crawl, which is now Luma. So he certainly kind of earned his SEO stripes, links, whatever we want to call it. And his talk is probably the least kind of clickbaity title of how Google manages its index, which doesn't give a lot away, right? Why I'm interested in this, so Adam as well is now co-founder of Indexing Insight, which as you can imagine is all about how Google kind of indexes content, pages, documents, URLs, of course catch.text and why I'm interested in this is especially was I think it's the beginning of or end of last year I went to an SEO FOMO panel which are the informal free meetups run by later solis and she was jammy enough to get um gary from google to join a panel and

18:38Mark Williams-Cook: if you haven't seen gary kind of speak or be on a panel or be in public around seos it's always a treat um he's kind of how in public how he acts online which is um obviously very sharp super intelligent guy um but very brutal short answers which is absolutely my vibe love love seeing it and the thing that stuck with me um that gary yesh said out of everything was someone asked him about what's google going to be kind of focusing on caring about in the kind of short medium long term and gary's answer was just original we're going to be looking at originality a lot which and he just kind of let that sit in the room and I think I've mentioned it a couple of times on the podcast like it really got me thinking about because when you get into these topics and you have to be specific I think it's hard to even define originality because a long time ago in SEO originality just meant a different order of words on the page so you could take content spin it say exactly the same thing but you use a different string of words to say it and google would treat that as original content now um where we are now is semantic seo with factorization that's not definitely not what we would call original anymore and there's a lot of discussions around things like information gain but the to me the kind of top of this hill is all about ai llms ai created content the speed at which people can create content now good and bad even though i would what i would call bad outweighs goods like by a terrifying magnitude it's become clear to me that google's i think one of google's biggest challenges now is sorting through what is good looking crap versus what is good content because the difficulty they have is llms can generate good looking crap whereas spam before was very or i wouldn't say very easy it's probably short changing some very talented engineers but it was a lot easier to algorithmically detect what was automatically generated now because of the ways that llms generate text we're essentially reliant or at least most public tools are on the how much does it match the token prediction and again there's loads of people showing that it doesn't take too much tweaking to break that so google's obviously falling back on all kinds of other methods and i think we see this when we see sites hockey stick in traffic and then several months later whatever google's doing don't even want to get into that discussion right now kind of catches up and starts deranking and de-indexing them and a lot of the leaks that we saw from the dojs doj trial was around google systems that essentially are reducing the pool of candidate pages at various stages for a query so you know i search for this keyword okay these things are relevant these sites make this quality score cut off the twiddler removes these ones and reorders this ones and it's getting this ever and ever smaller set that job is harder the bigger the set is you have to work from for i imagine all kinds of reasons to do with scalability speed quality the the compounding of a small chance of a bad answer getting through so i think google's biggest challenge is how do we keep a tight index of good content and that's been reflected i think with what we've seen in the webmaster still calling webmasters so people that manage websites um in the discourse which is this oh look i've been you know such and such but not indexed it's been discovered but it's not getting indexed or these pages have been de-indexed and i think to me that's one of the hot topics because obviously if you're not indexed i think you're going to struggle to appear everywhere including ai answers and google bing and the traditional search engines are going to be the primary gatekeepers of what kind of gets through into these models.

23:20So I'm really interested into Adam's insight into how Google is doing this because I've got again some ideas, I've got some technical routes that we use but really excited to see this because it's always a thing that I'm applying to whatever strategy is being suggested or pitched is what am i thinking about indexing in terms of this are we making too much you know too much content is there enough is google and judge as well how's it going to age in two three four five years so um low key title high key expectations for adam for

24:04Jack Chambers-Ward: me yeah it was a great conversation with adam i had a couple of months ago about this very topic and he really opened my eyes to a couple of things i think what he's got a lot of data on like you said from indexing insight about google really trying to be more selective with what they're indexing especially what they're indexing long term and that was really the thing adam drove home and i know something that's he's going to discuss in the talk as well is sure you might get indexed, but there is a roughly 130-day rule of indexing where you can get short-term index. You might get a couple of clicks, whatever, like you said, the little hockey stick kind of moment.

24:44But then after a while, if you're not doing anything interesting and it is kind of determined to be, like you said, maybe good-looking crap, then you might drop out of the index and then you'll struggle to get back into it for your new content and things like that. and I think that's something I've not really heard much people talk about and and Adam is a perfect example of like you said somebody who is maybe not as well known as a lot of other people that are having these kind of conversations but he's got the data he's got the insights he's got the the backup to to really get into the nitty-gritty and I appreciate that about him who's next on uh your hit list I'm gonna be cheeky and get four people in one I'm going to talk about our panel, which is the future of search and SEO.

25:31And I'm sure, again, we're going to cover a lot of AI search stuff. We're going to talk about a lot about Google and all that kind of thing. But it is a pretty all-star panel. We've got our own aforementioned Brendan Bennett as part of the panel. We've got Daniel Foley Carter joining us. We've got Charlie Marchant joining us and Emma Jane Stockton as well. And I think it's a really nice mix of different opinions, different perspectives, different personalities coming together and i'll do my best to moderate it i guess is this is my job i was gonna say that is quite a eclectic mix of people from all different kind of walks of seo and and backgrounds so uh yeah your work cut out there i think that that was purposeful that was perfect when you and i were picking the lineups and stuff we definitely wanted some you know so often i think you can either get a panel that is dominated by like yeah i kind of agree yeah i I agree.

26:23Yeah, that's fine. But actually having different opinions and being able to discuss them is what is unique about panels compared to a talk, right? And I think for me, that's where a big topic like the future of search and SEO is going to obviously inspire some hot takes, some perhaps interesting takes from the group. And I think for me, that is hopefully going to give the audience

26:48Jack Chambers-Ward: and attendees some new ideas and new perspectives to start thinking about sort of projecting, you know, where is it going in the next year or so? Then think about two years, five years. What do we think? Because it has changed so much recently in the classic, you know, oh, the search landscape has changed and all that kind of stuff. We've said so much over the last 80 months or so. I'm intrigued as to with how much it has changed and how different Google feels now as a company and as a search engine, what will we see actually emerge? A lot of people comparing the different AI search tools, comparing what we think the 10 blue links in traditional search and local search and Google, you know, the SERP features, all this kind of stuff, indexing.

27:34There's so many different directions and elements. And I think I'm going to do my best to kind of dig around and find some interesting perspectives and points. And I think, you know, Charlie, Daniel, Emma-Jane and Brendan and they're going to bring some between them. I think they have, I think I did the math. It was like 80 something, you know, the classic thing of like 80 years of experience. Like, yeah, come on. Our team has 1 million years of experience. My point is they're all very experienced and they all have a lot of experience. I know, again, Brendan, who was on the show a couple of weeks ago, talking about, you know, his background in graphic design as well.

28:10And I know Charlie comes from a different background as well. Dan's been around since before Google. like since the building websites in the 90s and things like that and i don't know emma jane don't say it like that no no that was a compliment absolutely um and emma jane has gone through you know being in film production and content creation and all this kind of stuff and there's a really i think some some really interesting directions we can go in i'm going to try and come up with some not generic not boring questions and really kind of steer the still the conversation in some interesting direction hopefully this was going to be one of

28:46Mark Williams-Cook: my comments actually and why i'm excited that you're moderating which is especially for a topic like the future of seo it's very easy to give quite generic open questions and i know as a panelist having been asked similar questions it's actually quite difficult to give a good answer because it's such a big question so if you're giving the specifics around like local search and what's going to happen with 10 blue links and specifics like that i think that tends to be a lot more interesting because you get you know specifics out of people and what would the goal for me of that panel is with those specific answers the audience can start to cobble together like awaiting for their directional thought about where uh things are going in seo so okay i see these three or four changes people are agreeing on so that means we're kind of moving in this direction which i think is hard to get from a single speaker that's trying to talk about a single topic so i'm yeah i'm i'm excited about that panel i'm excited about your moderation of that panel no no pressure um yeah slight sensitivity of me there to the uh building websites in the the 90s i was there when front page was there um so i think that wasn't a dig mate that was that was it no no no i'm saying you know i think you triggered some defensiveness in me there i got um so i'm doing i'm doing a panel uh at brighton seo in october um and the the title they sent over was uh what will seo teams look like in 2030 right and i was like 2030 i was like why do they want to know about the far far future of 2030 it was like i want no idea and then i was like we'll be living in space okay wait it's like three and a bit years i was like oh oh no so that gave me a bit of uh yeah i hadn't it still feels like super far in the future to me but it's it's really not

30:59Jack Chambers-Ward: um talking about i'll be turning i'll be turning 40 in 2030 so that scares me already oh wow welcome yeah i'm not even gonna i'm it's an easy calculation but i'm not even gonna do it don't do the math don't break it out wait it's fine i'm gonna move swiftly on to more future things which is i am also very excited to see uh miriam yesier who is technical and uh brand and visibility consultant. I've known Miriam for quite a while now. And Miriam is also a person who has a endearing habit

31:40Mark Williams-Cook: of suddenly texting me with a million things about SEO, which I love. And we've got a really nice, what I would define as asynchronous communication style, which is I will receive 52 texts from them about immediately really deep SEO kind of research. And then I will look at them and go, oh, that's a lot and carry on doing what I'm doing. And then 10 days later, when I've got a moment, I sit and read through all the texts and I send 45 texts back or two, depending how we're feeling. And then this tennis goes back and forward. And what I've learned about Miriam is they do think about SEO quite differently from a lot of other people.

32:32Mark Williams-Cook: And there's a few rabbit holes Miriam has gone down that I find particularly interesting. And they've really been digging into researching the whole kind of multimodal approach to content. and Miriam's kind of talk description was or I should say description of what they do is making the web more human and bot friendly and the current hyper focus is multimodal content strategies for search why I think this is particularly interesting and I'm guilty of this is when certainly I think about search engine optimization I mainly think about text and even when we talk about video and youtube i think about how bots just turn that into text and then you know do stuff with the text because that's kind of what's happening you know um search engines aren't watching youtube videos and based on what they see doing stuff with that they are transcribing it and understanding the the um contents within that way however that's not true of images anymore anyone that's used google lens will know this you can point your camera at something and ask uh gemini about it now and it will recognize what's in the image and talk to you about it super useful now i think it's kind of it's one of those features i think that so many people don't even know exists or they don't understand what it does because i use google lens all the time now uh when i'm shopping when i see a bug that i don't know what it is um you know when i need instructions for for something i did i did something when i unfortunately um i was trying to sort out a broken down car the other day and i was literally asking google questions about the engine block and getting helpful information so we've reached that level and to me it's obvious that future kind of ai is going to be ingesting all kinds of different content video is at its core just lots of still pictures shown to you very quickly um and you know we've got ai generating videos already we approach you know it's very um processor power hungry task at the moment so again we're not at the stage where search engines are watching videos and surfacing that way but you know as moore's law has demonstrated fairly consistently for a long while we will get there where the machines that are helping index rank serve content for us can experience them in the same way or in a i should say in a similar method to how humans are and i i actually think that's key to search engines and their related services becoming better because they're trying to serve the human experience so being able to understand what they see in a video is a lot more nuanced than just understanding the transcript so even things like being able to understand sarcasm and jokes for instance because that's a classic problem with llms right in the llms do not get sarcasm right so and they'll regularly pull back things that they think are just facts and information where someone's obviously being sarcastic which you can tell as a human and then that's compounded when you can actually see someone talk by the you know the body language and the movements they're making in their faces they're pulling and Miriam's been doing all of this research around images and how to make search friendly like product packaging and it's a whole area that I haven't myself thought deeply about and it's Miriam that's pushed me in that direction to start thinking about that and also think yeah well a lot of these things especially in bigger brands take many years to actually make it onto the shelf and onto tv and wherever to change so this is something very likely I should start thinking about now and start having those discussions about because some of these ships these brand ships are very big and they take a long time to turn so i'm again really excited about this and it isn't because it's miriam i know it's not going to be like a up in the air kind of very vague talk about brand miriam is a very technical um and detail orientated person and they've done a lot of research so very very excited about that talk as well

37:37Jack Chambers-Ward: yeah i think miriam is one of those people in seo that is as you said always thinking differently always pushing boundaries always going in a different direction where the rest of the industry is kind of thinking about one thing the amount of conversations i've had with them where you have that like i would never have even thought of that that's a really good point actually and multimodal being a perfect example of that and how the example i use all the time because miriam mentioned it when they were on the show, I think it was earlier this year, was the, like you said, the packaging, the readability of packaging and things like that.

38:12Jack Chambers-Ward: And I know Miriam who has talked about the mentioning a product and displaying it on the screen at the same time while you talk about it. So if you're doing a video about your product, actually show the thing you are talking about. So you can be like, this amazing microphone does this thing with these switches, but it's just me talking to camera. No, show the microphone, show the switches, show the things, like actually connect the audio to the visual. Because as you said, as these systems get more and more connected and more and more sophisticated, we're going to need to have this more multi-channel, multimodal approach to it.

38:50And I think Miriam is going to blow a lot of people's minds with a lot of stuff in their talk, because not enough people are talking about it. And I think it's going to be a really, really cool, yeah, just introduction to a lot of people i think to how you should be thinking a bit more about multi-modality absolutely i think we've got time for one more one more let's let's finish off with our keynote speaker mr martin split from google i know right who who no big deal we've just got martin from google martin has spoken at search knowledge before i know you know martin very well mark and just the nicest coolest guy who always has brilliant delivery in his talks he's like one of them legit one of my favorite speakers i mean he did a talk about javascript and like rendering and indexing issues at brighton and it was like one of the funniest talks of the entire thing like if you can make javascript rendering and indexing an engageable topic where i'm laughing and smiling and learning stuff as well.

39:56That's like, you know, proper good speaking right there. And I think Martin came to us with an interesting topic. I think kind of tying into a lot of what we're talking about, obviously we're looking forward, looking into the future and things like that. Martin is in search for a better web. I think not even as SEOs or even necessarily Martin as a Googler, but as a user, where are we going with this? What are we doing right now? What is things that we are doing now that maybe we could be doing differently or trying differently? There was a great talk at Hive MCR done by, of course, Jenna Walderson, who has been on the show before as well.

40:37Again, another person who is always pushing boundaries and coming up with cool ideas about where he thinks a lot of the websites we're currently building will be in a few years and how we should be building websites now and things like that. And speaking to Martin about this, I think that is kind of trying to end with a bit of optimism and hopefulness and thinking about, you know, what we can look forward to in the future and what we could be doing now to better put ourselves in a position to be ready for whatever is coming up around that corner, whatever is next for the internet and the web as we know it, let alone SEO and search, right?

41:14I think it's going to be a really kind of nice way to wrap up the whole day, finish off with Martin bringing his perspective and talking about hopefully some optimism and some hope for the future of the web. Yeah, I think that's especially cool because Martin's obviously got the view from the other side of the optimization fence as well. And obviously he's from a developer background. So I think that's going to be a really nice balance between what we hope will happen and what will probably actually happen. Yeah, he's a really, really great guy as well. When I saw him speak last at Athens SEO in the summer, and like you said, I was in stitches watching him talk about rendering, which yeah which is a skill because it's not the typically the most fun topic um so i think we're probably in for a treat in that he'll have fun with this one as well

42:19Jack Chambers-Ward: definitely definitely like i said folks you can check out all of these talks the panel and plenty of other talks i've only got eight talks in total go to search and orange.org you can find us on eventbrite just type in search and orange you'll find us on there or you can click the links in the show notes or put everything down there as well and like i said if you are watching or listening to this on the 24th of august when it comes out you have less than 24th at midnight as it turns into the 25th of august prices will go up by 50 quid so if you want to save yourself 50 quid you want to come and see people like arnold miriam martin julia the whole adam and all the panelists we mentioned save yourself 50 quid and come and see us for 125 pounds let's let's sweeten the deal even further let's make a 24-hour vote voucher code for people that are our listeners so nice let's say um if you use the voucher code monday swc as one word so m-o-n-d-a-y swc for 24 hours from this podcast going out you'll get an additional 20 off because if they've made it through to the end as well of this episode thank you for listening we learned you you've earned it there we go use code monday swc and put the stick that in on eventbrite and you'll get an extra 20 off there you go folks what more could you want where can we follow you mark what you're up to at the moment have you got any other speaking events coming up or anything like that a couple yes so uh september is a particularly busy month even outside of Search and Origin.

43:57So on the 2nd of September, I'm in Kluge speaking at Search Evolution Summit and followed by on the 18th of September, I hope I'm getting all these dates correct, 18th of September, I'm in Serbia speaking at the brilliant Belgrade SEO. obviously then we've got search and origin on the 24th and then in october right at the beginning of october we have our friends at search and stuff who are running their antalia conference i will be there i'm actually not speaking at that conference but i'll be there if you want to hang out so i'll be super relaxed there just enjoying some of the industry's best speakers there as well and again October is busy so as I mentioned I've got a panel and I'm speaking at Brighton SEO on the 8th of October so that's the obviously the UK edition and that's going to be a super technical nerdy talk for people that are interested in that kind of thing it's about wiretapping the SERP and it's all about watching network data in your browser to learn more about about how Google, ChatGPT, perplexity, and all of those tools are working in the background and how they give you the edge in optimization.

45:24And finishing off October, we've got SEMrush Spotlight on the 13th. And I'm doing the NES, which is the news-based kind of SEO event. I'm talking about how we're using AI at Canada on the 14th of October.

45:43Mark Williams-Cook: so that's what like seven events in the next eight or nine weeks yeah so busy busy it's kind of the season for for conferences and then the year's ending off i think with uh we've got in november and andrew coxnartley i'll give a shout out has restarted his optimizy events which is in cambridge on the 18th of november i'm really proud of myself these have been top of head so yeah i did spring this on you i am impressed with you just right and all the data so yeah i've just been doing some of the decks recently so the the dates were top of mind but um again andrew if you're if you're in or about cambridge so in the uk that's a great event it's free um it's a local meet up so it's a really good chance to to chat to people as well if you're not kind of a fan of uh at the other end of the scale i'd say something like semrush spotlight which is very big it's in london there's hundreds and hundreds of people stalled it's like the opposite of that so whatever your bag is there is something for you before the end of the year amazing thank you so much for

46:55Jack Chambers-Ward: joining me mark it's been a pleasure like i said folks go and check out the links get the discount code monday swc in the show notes if you want to go and get that exclusive 20 discount thank you for joining me thank you for watching and listening everybody and we'll see you next week bye