Why the Spark Always Fades (& What Actually Lasts)

0:00Emily Morse: I am so excited to finally share this with you. I am going on tour. It is the best sex ever tour. And I hope you'll join me. And the show is all about you, the audience. Every night, I'm going to be answering your questions, win prizes, and leave with secrets to have the best sex ever. Every night is different because the show is all about you. So here's the dates. July 7th in Rosemont, Illinois at Zaney's. then heading to Philadelphia on August 5th, Nashville on September 29th, and Austin on October 7th. More cities to come. Come with your partner, your friends, fly solo. You'll leave with practical tools, plenty of laughs, maybe some surprises.

0:43Emily Morse: Well, definitely some surprises. Visit sexwithemily.com slash events for tickets and tour information. I will see you there. Can't wait to meet you. Hey everyone, welcome to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily and my mission is to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate conversation around sex. This show is all about you. It's about you having better sex, expressing your desires, and knowing exactly what you want. Also be sure to follow me on all social media. It's Sex with Emily everywhere. Subscribe to my YouTube channel for full episodes and my newsletter. You're gonna love my newsletter. I've been told I give really good newsletter, if you know what I mean.

1:21Emily Morse: It's sexwithemily.com slash newsletter. Finally, I am going on tour and I hope you join me. I'll be going all over the United States. And my first stop is in Chicago on July 7th. And the show is all about you. I'll be answering your questions live. We'll play in games. There's giveaways. It's going to be such a good time. You can find that at sexwithemily.com slash events. All right, everyone. Enjoy this episode. For me, freedom is safety. And so attaching myself to someone is unsafe because it's vulnerable. They could leave. They could hurt me, which in a sense, it's two sides of the same thing.

1:57Emily Morse: You're like, you're going to leave and hurt me if I lock it down. I'm probably like, I don't even want to go towards that thing. And also, I've always felt my conditioning around my survival was that I'm doing it on my own. I've got this on my own. It'd be fun to hang out, but I don't know that I need you around all the time to be like my only one. even though probably deep down inside I really would love that.

2:21Emily Morse: One question I'm asked all the time is, Emily, what products do you actually recommend? And that's exactly why we created Shop Sex with Emily. Every product in the shop is something my team and I have personally researched and tested or recommended because we genuinely believe it can help you have better sex, stronger intimacy, and just more confidence in the bedroom. Whether you're shopping for yourself, your partner, or both of you, we've made it easy to find products that actually work. Head to shopsexwithemily.com and discover your next favorite bedroom essential. Have you ever found yourself wondering, where did the spark go?

3:00Emily Morse: Like it used to be so good, the butterflies, the chemistry, the can't keep your hands off each other energy. It all just flowed. And now you're in the same room, but something feels off, just dull, disconnected. So what happened? And more importantly, can you get that feeling back? Do you even want the spark once you had, or is there something deeper, more nourishing, and way more sustainable that you're actually craving? Well, in today's episode, we're talking about the myth of the spark, what it actually is, why it fades, and what your desire for it might really be pointing to. I'm joined by someone who's not only a brilliant mind, but also a dear friend, Dr.

3:42Emily Morse: Scott Lyons. He's a therapist, trauma specialist, somatic healer, and founder of The Embody Lab, an incredible space to reconnect with your body, your pleasure, and your full aliveness. So if you've been asking, can we get the spark back? The answer might surprise you. Let's dive in.

4:03Emily Morse: Okay, but how is it going? Dating? Well, Amy had said to me, go on eight first dates. eight different first dates she was like don't have any expectations of a second date just go on eight first dates especially after a breakup like you gotta just sample you gotta sample what's out there and see what you like again because you've changed you've evolved even if you're in a relationship you're continuously evolving and that's why I love going on a first date again and again and again with a partner with different people or no just the person you're dating but right now because I don't know You're actually going on first dates.

4:41Emily Morse: I'm actually going on first dates. I like that. Yeah. And I think it's an interesting mix. Sometimes like it's such an interesting, great, like intellectual chemistry, but physically it doesn't feel there. It doesn't transfer. It doesn't transfer. Sometimes there's like this physical, like primal energy that's there, but it's like the intellectual or like the depth of conversation isn't there. It's like, and I'm kind of like, again, I'm trying not to ask the question too much at this point of like, does it all need to be there? Well, that is the question when it comes to attraction and wanting to have sex with someone.

5:18Emily Morse: Does it all have to be there? And I think when we put the expectations of, well, if it's your partner and it's your serious significant other, well, of course we want the intellectual and the physical. And the emotional. And the emotional and the relational. However, if we're just going on some first dates and you want to see if you're into and want to have sex with them, like you might not know if you have them all at once or maybe you have one and not the other. And depending on what kind of relationship you're looking for, maybe there is just one that you're like, every time I see them, I want to bang them and that's my person for sex.

5:55Yeah.

5:55Emily Morse: And this, but ultimately, maybe you want someone who has the all of it. Yeah, I think so. But also the reality that it can grow like not all of them have to be there at the beginning like i think we put a lot of emphasis on like whoa yes that primal energy there in the beginning but i've been with people where it wasn't there for the first two months and then all of a sudden i was like whoa i am so attracted to them i i don't even know what to do okay so when you say it wasn't there the first two months like you literally like this is my buddy this is my new friend maybe emergency contact but not someone I'm ever going to see his dick.

6:31Yeah. I mean, I was like, this person is really cool. They're special. There's something interesting about them. I could see myself hanging out and connecting consistently.

6:43Emily Morse: Okay. And I was like physically not attracted to them. I, there was an energy that was kind of a miss. It just didn't feel. And then even the first time we, first couple months of actually having sex i was like nah really i called you i know i know and i was like do i exit now because it's just not there but there's so many other features that are pretty amazing and it was like can i train myself to be attracted to them can i find what is the pathway to attraction um and it wasn't just an absence of physical attraction it was like a energetic attraction that was missing that makes sense because i think that there are so many layers to attraction yes there's the physical but then there's the is this somebody that i can emotionally connect with and really have great conversations with this can i actually learn to like the more i learn about this person i actually really respect them i like the way they move through the world i like how they treat their friends they've got really interesting people in life and so that's really hot oh i really like their values they volunteer on the weekend and do this really cool thing or they you know what i mean they've showed me kindness they've showed empathy and so there's no way which is goes back to this point on the first date you're ever going to know all of that no and so was was the point that go on a bunch of first dates and then actually see if you want a second one or is because i kind of think if a first date doesn't completely suck go on a second one that's my take yeah because there's more there's probably more to be revealed always but if you liked him enough what do you think about that i mean i think uh so i don't know about you but like when i met someone and i'm like yes on a first date or second date i'm just kind of all in and i can't date anyone else okay and so this is also breaking that pattern of being like okay it's our third date let's move in together yeah okay that's what you've done Yeah.

8:43But it kind of like, you know, essentially it's about like getting to be more comfortable with the process of dating, which is meant to actually be slow and grow as opposed to this fast, heavy, like primal, you know, entry point.

9:02Emily Morse: That's really it. That's exactly it. That primal, you always hear those stories about couples like we've been on one date and we never separated for three months. We've all done that. But then I just think like, how well do you really know this person? Danger, danger. And that's when like either love bombing can happen or where they're just like, you're my everything. We're getting married. And when you meet my parents in June, this is going to happen. And they start dropping all of those things where you feel prematurely connected. but what you're saying is your pattern has been doing that because maybe that felt safe you wanted to be all in yeah it was a total trauma response i'm like say more about that though everyone yeah sometimes we so there's this like whole liminal space of like getting to know someone it's like the in between like we're not yet settled and all the like nerves are you know present in our stomach, the butterflies.

9:58And we kind of just want the anticipation to fucking end. And so we jump the liminal space. We jump the liminal gap and go, you're mine. I want you. This is settled. This is like, I want this. And part of it is like growing more tolerance for the discomfort of getting to know someone.

10:19Emily Morse: Right. And to say more about that, the jumping the liminal gap, it's because it feels so good, but it's so vulnerable to feel so good. So I want to lock this down and know they're my person so I don't feel unsafe. Yes. Yes. That is so interesting. So you're like, we don't really know enough, but you know that you have enough to feel that excitement. Yeah. And what's funny is, is that you're saying that excitement makes you want to lock it down. And other people's like myself, I want that to go on forever. And I don't want to lock it down because I love the excitement and the newness. And then I will, my pattern relationships has been like month three or four.

11:00Emily Morse: The guy's like, okay, like, what do you, we've been doing this long enough. Do you think you could be my girlfriend? I'm like, ah. So you love the intensity at the beginning. Yeah. And then the moment that it starts to get like contained or organized or like labeled, it's like, there's a fear of that going away or experience. I have a pattern of that. I have a pattern of that. Yeah. Yeah. For me, freedom is safety. And so attaching myself to someone is unsafe because it's vulnerable. They could leave. They could hurt me, which in a sense, it's two sides of the same thing. You're like, you're going to leave and hurt me if I lock it down.

11:37Emily Morse: I'm probably like, I don't even want to go towards that thing. And also, I've always felt my conditioning around my survival was that I'm doing it on my own. I've got this on my own. It'd be fun to hang out, but I don't know that I need you around all the time to be like my only one. Even though probably deep down inside, I really would love that at some point. I mean, look, connecting relationships, intimacy, it's fucking vulnerable. It has to be. We have to lower our drawbridge of ourself to be able to let people in and to meet them. And that's terrifying. And we have all these different ways of essentially like making sure we don't feel vulnerable because in the past we've been hurt or we've been hurt by other people or, you know, whatever it is.

12:27But ultimately it creates more havoc than it does connection. And like when we talk about like, ooh, I want that spark, that feeling of like the hotness in the beginning to last, it can if we continue to let our guard down, that drawbridge down and continue to build layers and layers and layers of connection.

12:51Emily Morse: Which is the slowing down process, which is what I think we're both saying is that there's like this rush towards the dopamine and the feel good chemicals. And I want to lock this down. It's so good. I want it all the time. and yet when you're caught up in that attraction phase you're not really like widening the lens to see all the other things that are going on so you're not taking an accurate snapshot of what this person is and you're like riding high on all that excitement but what it made me think of is like first off that's such great it's it's so interesting to think about the slowing down and the dating process but then it comes down to the age-old attraction response so this is going to be this is going to be like a stereotypical trope men this women so i'm just going to say it but often they i've heard this for years like well men know within 20 seconds if they want to have sex with someone and women they would have said say say like oh we take a little bit longer to get to know someone and and then it becomes the attraction can grow and i would say i don't know if that is i would say that for men maybe that's true but we're you're somebody who's also a little bit more evolved and a little bit more like understand all the nuance to it and yeah maybe you know if you want to sex or not but it's not just about that there's other things to know yeah and i would say like sometimes i don't even know if that's relevant anymore though yeah i mean i think people are evolving and they're like demisexuals and sapo sexual sapiosexuals like sapio like i'm i'm really turned on i don't want to say that part about men wanting to be in women Kate, go ahead.

14:25Where like sapiosexuals, like I'm attracted to your intelligence and that feeds these other forms of like, you know, primal energy or I'm like really attracted demisexual to your, this emotional bond. And that's what really gets me hot and bothered. And, you know, I think the question of like, can we train ourselves to be attracted to someone? It's more of like finding what is the organizing principle of your attraction? like what is the fucking thing that turns you on completely is it a real emotional connection is it intelligence is it something physical is it working out together is it what is it that then like opens the doorway for everything else i wonder if there's like a checklist of these are

15:09Emily Morse: all the areas that i have to figure out or is it different person by person or at the end of the day if you do pull out in the aggregate well i want to feel intellectually stimulated by them i I want to feel emotionally stimulated. I want to feel that we could have conversations, that you're kind and hold space for me and have empathy and compassion. But it seems like it all comes out in different ways. Like we don't ever actually know it all right away, but it does take time to figure it out. But I'm wondering if there's some like test we could give someone to know so we have to waste time. I mean, you know how we have like the love languages?

15:41To me, this is about like safety language. So it's like if you can identify your own safety language your cues of safety, and then teach someone else, that's training yourself to be more attracted, quote unquote, because I'm like, you know, if I say to you, okay, my love language, and I say this all the time to people, my safety language, my love language is asking me follow up questions. And you might go, why is that important? Because I might share something really vulnerable. And if I feel like I'm on a cliff, which is what I feel like when I'm sharing something vulnerable, and there's no one there to catch me, which is a follow-up question, then I feel like I shut down.

16:20And then I'm certainly not going to be attracted. So when someone asks me a follow-up question, it's a physical sense in my body that I'm like, someone is there. And then I'm like, let's do it.

16:32Emily Morse: Can you give me an example of something you would say to someone and what the follow-up could be that would feel good and then what has happened in the past? it's honestly like anything to like a memory of my past of like this I did this when I lived in New York I uh used to take martial arts and it was a really big deal for me growing up in a really abusive household to this is actually a real story uh abusive household to like to to learn how to fight and I was with someone then who just said cool and then like oh my gosh I I could just feel myself shut down and I didn't want to have sex with them where if they had said to me wow that's really intense thank you so much for sharing it or um hey what feels so like what feels so different for you now than it did even then when you were training as a martial artist yeah like anything anything but you're like I just said I had a traumatic household and I used this this extra this method of healing modality and you're like cool what's for dinner yeah yeah That feels dismissed and unsafe.

17:41Emily Morse: And then you shut down. I totally get it. On a dating app, if someone's like, how's your day? And I'm like, here's what happened in my day. And I'm sharing. And it's really like, I'm testing the waters of like, can they show up? And if they can't, I just don't. Thank you so much. This conversation is, I feel complete in this conversation. Texting is hard too. Some people are. I mean, this vulnerability and holding space is so hard for people in real life. And then like the whole texting thing when people don't know how to do that. But I guess it is a way to know quickly. But I just thought of something.

18:14Emily Morse: So you know people talk about like the ick. Like I knew the second I wasn't into somebody, like the time, you know, they wore that weird sock or they scratched their – I don't know what it was. I can't remember my last. Well, I've had a few icks. However, do you think that there is an attraction ick? Like what would be the attraction? Ah. Or like when you're like, oh, I'm suddenly attracted to you now. Like these certain things came together. i saw your empathy your vulnerability you're hot i saw your penis i saw this and then you're like spark like is there a moment where you feel like because you said it can also build up yeah do you think there's a moment or can you place it in the moments you're like now i'm in so the opposite is a spark yeah okay and i think catching the sparks is so important because people always ask all both of us all the time it's like hey been in a relationship for five years where's the spark how do we get the spark back?

19:06Emily Morse: Number one question I get asked. And if you're not absorbing the micro sparks, how are you going to like, you got to absorb them. Like these little moments of like, they looked at you and you just felt like their gaze on you. And you're like, to take that in. It actually is more about the micro sparks. In the beginning, that macro spark is about the novelty of it all. The big, like the specialness, the uniqueness. Spontaneity. Spontaneity. You've never seen this person do this thing before, say this thing. you've never seen him naked before it's new spot in his friday that's what creates the physiological part of the physiological spark to maintain it find novelty is one part of it but take in the little moments that are those micro sparks that aren't and really take them in and then and then expand upon them and remember what they were because i think that this that when we lose attraction or we're not sure about attraction we want the spark back yeah i want to say like honestly fuck the spark you're probably not going to get that spark back no you're not going to get the spark because that spark that most people are referring to yeah is the spark that arose from the honeymoon phase when you were you were freebasing so it's called freebasing free free loading free spacing you were inundated yeah you were taking an iv of the most delicious cocktails feel-good cocktails, hormones of oxytocin and dopamine, serotonin, and they're all at once because of novelty, spontaneity, newness.

20:34Emily Morse: This person's amazing. You are the highest fuck if you've ever been in your life. And it's sparking all over the place. You can't even micro spark. You can't even find it because it's all a spark. It's all a spark. But like any great drug, it's amazing. And then it comes back down again. And you're like, damn, that was a good spark. can we get that spark back? And I just want to say, I don't know that you, that it has to be that spark. But what I love that you're saying is cultivate the mini sparks. Cultivate the mini sparks. Stop chasing the original spark because you actually can't get it back.

21:06It's not our physiology.

21:08Emily Morse: And why would we even want to go back? Yeah. Right. It's a new spark. And if we're chasing the old spark, then we cannot progress in relationships. And relationships are developmentally progressive, which means that at six-month marker, the one-year marker, more of our early childhood shit is going to arise. As we move through the layers of intimacy, more things are going to come up for us to navigate. And if we're not open navigating it, then basically you're not ready to be in a relationship. Yeah, you got to learn to navigate it and know that the fact that you're opening up to these patterns from childhood are coming up.

21:48Emily Morse: and I almost want to go off of what that is because I always feel like I say that and be like, what do you mean? My parents are perfect. Nothing happened. But it just does. It's how you were conditioned and you lived at home with some people and you learned a certain thing and it's going to come out in the relationship. Yeah. But the problem is when we're in that, we're both getting like having really big reactions to it. And when we have those big reactions, they come in the form of, I don't know, stress, worry, anxiety, spiking cortisol, which makes it hard to get aroused and feel a detraction.

22:20Emily Morse: So the spark literally can't, it's like you're dousing water on the spark because you're bringing in these patterns that are making you feel less connected. Well, they occupy your attention and energy. It's like if we have two, if you imagine at the beginning of a relationship, it's like two onions bumping rinds, you know? Bumping rinds. Bumping rinds. And then we're peeling away layers. And as you know, you peel away the layers of the onions and you get a little teary. and it's, you know, you get preoccupied with the layers. And that's part of the beauty of intimacy. That's what intimacy is. We're peeling the layers to become more interconnected.

22:58Yes. And as we do that, more things are going to come up, like our frustrations we might have, the annoyances that come up. That's also part of peeling away the onion.

23:11Emily Morse: And then we don't know even, yeah. But then most of us are not equipped to actually dissect all of that stuff and to talk about it in a healthy way without feeling, you know. And then what happens is the sex, yeah, the blame game, the resentments. But when it comes to sex, so if we're talking about the sex spark in particular, the challenge here is that for many is that we don't even know like a lot of times because our sexuality. And I guess I can speak this a lot for women, but for men, they need this too, is that we were sort of riding on those like feel good hormones and the chemicals. We didn't really have to think about as much like what we actually want.

23:51Emily Morse: A lot of our sex has been more performative. And so a lot of our sex, a lot of female sexuality has been in service or more performative towards male sexuality only because that's what most pleasure and most sex education has been focused on penis goes in vagina that is sex when we know that only 20 of women are having orgasms or pleasure that way so at the beginning it was amazing howdy moon phase six months to two years and then women are like i don't even know if i yeah not all women but many they're just like oh now i and then their partners like this is not to blame men like men i my hookah how could that to men because men have to like there's so much for them to they're supposed to know everything about sex there's just a common hard there's also the note that they their pr is that they always want sex and they're horny all the time and want to be hard and ready to go and now yet they should know what they're doing and they should whatever and then and then in women's is like well i gotta like sometimes please a man or i should be able to get turned out when he is but i'm not because my arousal was is a mystery me so then they're trying to navigate learning this entire spectrum of their own sexual turn-ons, desires, and wants when maybe they grew up in a home or there was like a lot of shame around sex.

25:13Emily Morse: So there was a lot of like, I don't feel great if I masturbate. So what I'm saying is this spark is really just like a biochemical, neurological conditioning that happens early on that is a mystery and not really based in something that is sustainable. Yeah. Until you look at all, When I say sex is wellness, you have to look at all the areas of your life and all the areas with this person that could contribute to really hot sex again. Because I'm not saying it's not going to be amazing sex again. You're going to expand. You're going to grow. You're going to learn nerve endings all over your body.

25:47Emily Morse: But it just might not be like that. Yeah. I mean, essentially, if you think about it, the honeymoon period is you are drunk. Like you are literally drunk on that cocktail. And then you get to sober up. And the question as you sober up from that cocktail and the relationship is, how do you find that excitement between each other organically? How do you find it in different ways that's not reliant on keep drinking the cocktail? Because you can't. You can't. You cannot keep drinking the cocktail. You're not designed for it. You run out of the cocktail, and at the same time, the cocktail's coming out of your system, you now have new things coming in, which is this partner's patterns and how they didn't really show up for me and how they didn't ask follow-up questions or how they didn't follow through things that they were going to do.

26:34Emily Morse: So now the question, do we get the spark back? And what, in this 20th year of doing this podcast, there's like so much that I have deeply been thinking about because if these are the same questions every single day, no matter where you live, your gender, what country you're in, It's like, once for all, I want to amplify this information and have people understand that this question, maybe people are asking the wrong question. Getting the spark back isn't the question. It's how do I really learn to deeply understand who I am as a sexual being with my partner or without my partner? What kind of touch do I like?

27:17Emily Morse: What times of day do I like sex? when do I feel the most sexual? Is it in the morning? Is it at night? Is it after I work out? Is it a certain food date? Is it after we have this really like intense emotional bond or a really intellectual conversation? And then you start to look at all these factors in your life. Like we have to become our own sex experts and start to build that knowledge. Like I tell people like put a note in your phone. Like every time you notice something was hot or something got you, made you feel more attracted to your partner or actually yourself, made you feel more aroused, collect that list because it's almost like okay think of it like food like think of it this way like you go you go to you i've been scott is a very particular eater like scott i just like scott knows exactly what he wants and exactly does what he doesn't want no matter how many restaurants you go to no matter like how many michelin stars you go to like you're particular yeah because you've had so much food in your life and experiences and you've lived a life of many different cuisines and cultures and lived all over the world here's the thing was the sex menu for the majority of people yeah it's very very small it's like on a little fucking postcard and it says like i should be aroused when my partner is penis erect vagina should be wet i should be on top or the bottom or have doggy style and a blowjob and oral and then fall asleep and go to sleep and oh wait i wasn't really really even browsed like that's literally it's five things and so people or maybe you know every every birthday but what i'm saying is the menu of sex has not only not been built on i actually tasted this souffle and i developed a taste for it and i know that i like or i know i like my steak medium rare because i've had so much steaks with sex most people have had sex where they've been really unconscious or disassociated unconscious they've been a little disassociated they might have been in people-pleasing mode where they They weren't even feeling what they wanted.

29:09Emily Morse: And then they also, if they haven't had a lot of sex or they felt bad, then there's the whole pillars of sex IQ I talk about. If they were never really feeling confident about the sex they've had before, then they don't feel great about it. They're not really building the tools. So then you bring in porn, which is how many people grew up. Well, sex is what I saw in porn. And so that's what's on the menu is like that. What's that? There's a menu of porn. or that's like what someone told me once, but it's a very small pool. What am I trying to say? The sex menu. So then we're asking people, I want you to decide what your biggest turn-ons are, how to get the spark back, how to connect with someone, but you're not even really sure what feels good to you yet because you've never really taken the time with yourself or in relation to someone else.

29:54Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I really hear in that is like, you have to get to know yourself. You have to get to know your partner or partners. in terms of gaining back that spark and like discover and explore. And like, if, if, if the, like the menu is so limited.

30:14Emily Morse: For many. Yeah. For many, then of course. And it's not like you have to go do crazy shit on the other side of that. Notice. Notice. Be attuned to what you actually like. And over time you'll build, that's why I like say, write it down. Like, oh, I liked when this person kissed my neck for like a few minutes. I'm going to take note of that. If that's something that actually got me turned on. or I really liked that we had that long, that dinner or that walk on the beach or whatever it is. I guess this going back to the spark, that's going to be the like how you're going to, because no matter what stage you're at, you're going to want the variety and the newness and you're also going to want to be able to figure out what are the elements that are going to be required for us to keep this spark alive, especially if we want to be in a long-term relationship with someone.

30:56And I think we've been looking at the wrong places

31:00Emily Morse: or trying to go backwards in time when saying presently in this moment, What do I know has been great? And what am I interested and curious? And what do I want to learn about? And that's why we have thousands of podcasts, books. You've got shows. We've got a lot that people can learn. But again, we don't usually explore this area. You're tracking me, right? What I'm saying about the sexual menu for, because again, that's in my knowledge is that like I'm constantly saying like people like, they literally are so afraid to talk about sex. Doggy style, like kiss, make out, penetration all over in eight minutes.

31:32Emily Morse: Guy came, she probably didn't. Maybe he finished her off with oral. Then we fell asleep and went to bed. It wasn't like there was anything new, fun, novel to try. And that got really boring after a while, even though it was really hot in the beginning. So part of the spark is that even if you're still doing those things, that's not the whole menu of what could feel hot.

32:02Well, do you feel like when people ask us, how do I get the spark back, that they're only referring to sex or they're referring to like this total intoxication? Because that's not always the same thing. You know what I mean? We call that passion.

32:14Emily Morse: I think they want the passion. They want the passion. Yeah, I think they want it all. Yeah. I think that they're co-mingling it all together because it all happened together. Yeah. the great sex and the spark, and that it all, the all-encompassing, whatever was happening in that time, they want that feeling again. And this is what I also hear from couples all the time who've been together for so long. They're like, you're so lucky, Emily, because you get to go date and experience it all the time, and I'll never have that. They almost have this death of that experience you just described. They're like, I don't know that I'll be able to feel that for someone again, and that newness.

32:52Emily Morse: It's like we put that on this like aspirational or this pedestal and we want it again. Because we're chasing intensity instead of intimacy. Yes. And it's like if we are so numb in our life and all of us have some level of numbness, that's called survival. I'm numb right now. Well, hi, numb. I'm just kidding. It's cold. And if we're trying to rise above the threshold of numbness, then all we can feel that's above the threshold of numbness is intensity. And we go, oh, that's living. That's what living is if it's on a volume of 10, the decibel is at the top volume. But life is full of these subtle, sensual experiences.

33:36They're delightful and tasty. Like when was the last time you tasted, took the time to taste an apple? That might sound so dumb, but when was the last time you slowed down to really enjoy something?

33:50Emily Morse: Savor. To savor it. And in a relationship in the beginning, we're so over inundated. It's on like a decibel of 10 passion, but actually that's still there. It's just become the norm, you know, and underneath it, it's like, okay, well, what's more important passion or safety? And can safety be the foundation, which is what grows over time for more variations of passion? That's exactly it. I think that we, like you were saying, we want the passion, but then we skip over the limerence to get the safety. Because now we got the safety. But then how do you still cultivate eroticism in the safety? Because when you're safe and I know this person's predictable, I trust them, I know when they're coming home, I know how everything's going to be.

34:38Emily Morse: That cancels out the passion and the arousal. And so the work, I hate to even say work in the show. I hate to be like, yeah, work. but truly the work is knowing, like I just would love to like put a billboard everywhere when someone's going about to get married or maybe we pass out little flyers at wedding chapels and be like, hey, by the way, the work that you're going to have to do is like the fun work is like continuing to prioritize your connection over everything else. And like, it is literally our jobs to find ways that we continue to connect with variety, with spontaneity, like you could still do that and just still stay curious and open with each other and promise that we will always like be on this self, this sexual exploration journey together.

35:28Emily Morse: Because another thing that I find if I just go off on the spark is that I want to see if you found this. Typically, when I hear from couples, there's usually one person who is very into like fixing the sex life wanting it to be better looking at the time of this the frequency of sex and the pleasure of sex and worried about it and they can't talk to their partner when they try to like there's one person pushing this giant sex boulder up the hill and another one's like we shouldn't talk about or i don't have time or i'm fine and then that's where i just think it should be a collaboration so tell these people like please prioritize put this in your wedding about is that we are always going to collaborate on and prioritize our sex life we're going to both agree that we will have a growth mindset around sex and just like we do about our health or our values towards parenting or saving money we're gonna we're gonna also do that with our spark our sex life because that's where the problem is which is why like i think most most couples get to this point and they're like i don't know what to do about it and then that's when they're like, well, I bought a toy or I listened to this or I did that, but it's multi-layered facet and we're trying to nuance it out for people here.

36:48Yeah. And where else can you find passion together and let that passion bleed into the bedroom or on a bus or in public, wherever, whatever, you know what I mean?

36:58Emily Morse: That might be the thing. On the bus. On the bus. Sex on the bus. Sex on the bus. Is that the new podcast? Sex on the bus? Maybe. We're trying to think so. Not a bus, maybe a plane. sex on a plane have you ever not sex is defined by penetration there's a little bit of like masturbation action oh on a plane yeah hot you uh come on it was supposed to happen once it was there was a whole setup for it and this and it didn't work out oh what's like the setup you put a blanket over you and you get some lube well that's what i thought it was but the other person made it very sophisticated and when i couldn't understand the sophistication they were upset and so oh my god like roses and moves no anyway no it was like a seatbelt and a pillow and on top of that a blanket oh he was like ergonomically it was like all of this fucking complex shit and I was like can't we just can't we just touch each other can we just bone I've definitely done that on a moving train that was fun that was fun but on a yeah you know it's and I you know I can appreciate that it's a felony on a plane I was gonna say that I'm like remember sex on a plane and outside is illegal so you know So all of that and more.

38:06So no, not on a plane, on a train. On a train. And a few other places. But I think like sometimes, you know, and I've experienced this in partnership, after a certain amount of time, like going out to a really nice dinner where we're talking about it and we're like unpacking all the flavors and we go home and have sex. And that sex is so much more flavorful because we're carrying that into the bedroom. or like we go to a pottery class and we're like using our hands and we're creating and we feel like really satisfied and like, and we just bring that on in. You know, it doesn't have to be straight on into the sex.

38:45It's like find the things that you can be impassioned together around. I love that.

38:51Emily Morse: Those are like part of your like arousal runway might be like knowing that once a month or once a week you like take a pottery class and cook a meal together. and and and it's it's the incredible thing is it seems simple enough but i think the problem that most couples get into is that they just don't they're like for whatever reason we know that like all the research has shown that date night once a week is a non-negotiable in couples who do that report more sexual satisfaction but what if we just make it fun it's like one month you plan something that i plan something you think with couples who are committing to their life together and they're living together and they've I think it's kids babies fuck couples up for a bit they're like we don't even have time to like sleep do anything and like now you only play a date night fuck you Emily but I'm not even saying that I'm saying like it could just be like a a morning off or a three-hour drive or something that gets you even if you're tired like I just think that what happens is couples so much time goes past and they can't remember how to do those things anymore so the advice is to keep doing them like put that in your marriage or your yeah put in your vows put in your contracts put it but put it in your calendar for sure because calendars are huge reminder you know i think there's something around like safety again that then we become a little stale because of the safety it's like i know you'll be there but it's like i know you'll be there as a friend but i still am like let's go do an adventure yeah but i love that about you scott's the you're the most adventurous friend like i did was it paintball what we did we did laser tag laser tag yeah i was like hell no i'm not a game person i'm not playing laser tag like i just not hell no i just felt like a strong like can't we go back to that place and had that really good gluten-free dessert to just stay there for a while but but also it was so it was out of my box yeah oh and also as a kid i was always pick last and not great at games so i have a thing about team sports.

40:49Emily Morse: A lot came up for me. But what I love is you're like, we're in, there was like 15 of us. And we all freaking did it with a bunch of other young 12 year olds, young kids. And it was such a blast. So you naturally bring that thrill and excitement to friendship too. So I can only imagine what it's like in the bedroom. Well, there's other problems in the relationships. So you're high on the active skill. High on the nudist activities. I like doing things that are like co-creative together. Co-creative is the key term. Yeah. Like maybe we don't have to bond over our trauma. Maybe we can bond over shared fun activities.

41:26I don't know, y 'all. That sounds a little more fun.

41:28Emily Morse: Yeah, totally. That's true. A lot of times we spend so much time because of our brains and survival mode and whatever we were trained, we spend so much time with like what's wrong and what the problems are. And like, what if it simply is a pottery class, a new class? I mean, again, okay, I have a side note, real inside, what's it called, like, breaking fourth wall, whatever the fuck, like, after I have these things now, being the 20th year, I'm going to bring this up a lot, is that I think, like, I hear voices going, oh, yeah, date night, oh, yeah, da-da-da, prioritize relationship, but I'm like, like, legitimately, I want to yell at everyone.

42:03Emily Morse: It's like, you're writing me every day and calling in and saying you don't have it, and 99.9 % of couples have not even done one of these things. They have not ever, like, played a card game, like the Esther Perel card game that you, like, ask you fun questions. Or we have this, okay, Aria is this really cool new company I'm working with. It's like an AI dating coach that you, it's so cool. I want to do it with you. You need a partner because I'm not, like, sleeping with anyone in one person right now. I'm not sleeping with you. But it asks you questions. What are your turnoffs? You each get this, like, AI concierge.

42:37Emily Morse: It's an app. And then you both get to talk about what you like and what you're into. And then they send you like a sexy box once a month. So it's sort of like a sex coach, therapy coach for couples. And it moves at your pace. So like it was like I really would be into temperature play. So they sent me like a massage candle. And since it's using an AI concierge, who's lovely. I would love to invite this to dinner. They really keep track. Like, how's it going? But it's not pressureful. Like it would message, hey, Scott, Emily answered the questionnaire. Will you answer it? in it. So anyway, I'm just thinking about the spark and thinking about also recognizing how hard it is to develop new habits, to make time for anything else other than survival.

43:21Emily Morse: Because going back to your point, when you get into a relationship, you feel safe. If I'm safe, one area I don't need to work on. This person's safe. They're not going anywhere. I'm not connecting that that safety is also canceling out me wanting to suck your dick or whatever. so then I'm focused on all these other areas so if there's a tool or a reminder or a calendar invite or an app like Aria that can be like once a week you can set it oh babe here's a reminder tonight we're supposed to give each other a massage for 10 minutes it might just be those kind of outside reminders because I just know how hard it is to develop new habits on my own I get caught up with things too where I'm like oh I haven't called a friend in a while you know what I'm saying it's a tool we're going to do it together Looking forward to it.

44:05Emily Morse: Okay, I'm going to send it to you after this. Can I throw a wrench in the spark conversation? Please, do always wrench it up. The thing we often don't talk about is that spark that you feel in the beginning might just be something we call a trauma tingle. Ooh. So a trauma tingle is the same type of hypermagnetism attraction that you're like, fuck, yeah. But the reality is, is you're not even centered in yourself. You're like, you're obsessed with them. You're constantly focusing on them as opposed to being in relation with someone. It's totally different. It's basically where like you're tripping over yourself.

44:47And it's, again, you're chasing the intimate, you're chasing the intensity. And -

44:53Emily Morse: But can you explain how that relates back to trauma tingle? Is it because in childhood, maybe you had someone in your family that was unattainable or wasn't there for you? Yes. So then you're like, oh, I'm actually getting tingly, but it's in my trauma space. It's in your trauma space. Not in my perineum. It's basically like the red flags are your spark. And so often that's... So nuanced. It's so nuanced. And so, yes, there is this whole biological period in the beginning where it's like, you know, there's a lot of energy. There's a lot of passion. There's a lot of attention. There's a lot of wetness here and there.

45:32And it's a big difference between when we're meeting someone and we're finding that passion and it actually lasts longer versus a trauma tingle when it's like this hot, like, I don't know, I'm just so attracted to them and I can't stop thinking about them. That's more likely a trauma tingle because we're chasing the familiar red frogs.

45:54Emily Morse: How do we know? Is there a great way that we could teach people whether it's a trauma tingle or it's a real tingle? Yeah. Or like a route, like a, you know, a healthier tingle? Yeah. I don't like using the word healthy anymore, but like the tingle that we want. Yeah, the one we're looking for that's more sustainable. A sustainable tingle. A sustainable tingle. Bliss, please. Do you remember when we first met and it was kind of like a love at first sight? We did. And we canceled the whole rest of our day and we just spent it together. and but we were both centered in ourself we could feel our own breath we could feel like i'm there wasn't anxiety of like will we still be friends after we meet do you love me enough do you like me am i attractive all of those insecurities i'm also not chasing you and even if you don't call me back i'll be like okay i'm gonna feel what that's like in my body and i'm gonna be like hey I'd love to connect more and the trauma tingle it starts to spiral and the old familiar shit starts to come up of like do they like me?

46:57oh my god am I enough? that is material that's more like

47:01Emily Morse: and that can also happen in friendship it absolutely can happen in friendship when we're chasing the familiar like I mean because we fell in love we fell in love but it wasn't but there was no but there was no we weren't disorganized we weren't disorganized around that connection, that bond. When it feels like a roller coaster, that is much more likely we are in, like, here's a great example. I was so what I thought, like in love with this person a couple of years ago, like four or five years ago. And I was like, oh my gosh, they are my person. They are absolutely my person. And like, wow, wow, wow.

47:43I'm so attracted to them. and they said to me like two dates in, they're like, you know, I'm pretty avoidant. I'm not very attractive. I'm not very available. And I was like, that's okay. The fact that you even said that means you have some sort of awareness, which I'm attracted to. All right. And then I couldn't stop thinking about them. And we'd go on some dates and I was like, oh my gosh, I am chasing love. I am fueled by the history of having to chase love to be loved. And this person replicates their own inability to meet me. It replicates my own history of being unable to met. That is a trauma tingle that I think is love, that I think is passion.

48:31It is not. Right.

48:32Emily Morse: And that rollercoaster you described was them not being available, basically telling you not only not being available, but saying like, I'm avoidant. I'm not always going to text you back. I'm not going to call you back. It's almost like we know these things, but it sounds like that was a really powerful one for you where you're really, you're like, I'm really going to not do that again. Try not to. Yeah. Like I would think about how long do I have to do between text or waiting for them to text me back. All of those things. Or even like I find myself closing off and then I find them coming closer to me.

49:06And like, that's exciting to me. That's a trauma tingle. That's not passion. Yeah.

49:10Emily Morse: that is such a great way to can yeah yeah it's tricky but you know what it made me think of and i want to see i want to see what you think about this so when you're talking about our relationship which has blossomed into a beautiful friendship the last few years yeah we just sat down we did the show you were on my podcast we were sitting here yeah and we were like yeah fuck it let's go spend the day together and it's always felt safe with you and just grown grown grown layers and I my belief is that dating when you're meeting someone new you should also feel more of that like and I would even argue to say not that you become best friends because there's more when you're dating you're looking for more things and for us it was safe because we didn't have the romantic element we knew we could be friends however I would say just that kernel of like this is someone that I think is cool and I'd want to hang out with again I don't know if it's romantic or not but we had this great feeling rather than I would use if you had any like, do they like me?

50:07Emily Morse: Do they not? They didn't call me back. They had, they said they were going to, they didn't. That's almost grounds for like, maybe not a second date. Like, don't you think there's enough there? Or like, I just feel like we should at least have a motocron of this is really, really more good than bad. Well, again, the trauma tingle, the trauma tingles is going to rush us into things. It's not going to really allow us to get to know someone. Yes, in a natural occurrence of all the cocktail hormones, we're a little drunk. We're a little like, was that a red flag? I'm not so sure. Maybe it was yellow.

50:37Maybe it was green. I can't quite focus yet. But certainly during the trauma tingles, we are ignoring the red flags. We are looking. We are seeking for that passion, which is just intensity. It's not intimacy. And that's such an important thing to say.

50:53Emily Morse: Intensity, not intimacy. Intimacy is not intense. Yeah. And at the end of these relationships that are so, that begin with the trauma tingles and are basically continue to be that through the relationship. And I'm moving my hand like a roller coaster because that's what it is. And then we have to, and then when it destructs and it always breaks down and it always is so dramatic when it deconstructs and we go, but that was the love of my life. and what we have to do is we have to reframe it from that was the love of my life was that was the love of my early life that I'm trying to repeat and that's such an important distinction because we are trying so fundamentally to come back into the familiar of our past and that's not what love is that's not what love is and that's not what intimacy is and the thing here that I want to say too and this is probably for another time but what I feel like because this work why I love talking about this stuff is I think it's listen another thing in 20 years we've learned a lot more about somatic therapy about trauma about how things live in our body that a lot of things we're being diagnosed as are really just nervous system regulation there's a lot of interesting things going on but then we tell someone like well it's in your body or it's childhood things that still takes like I know that's taken me so much work and so much therapy to finally like understand what it means.

52:22Emily Morse: Like, oh, I have daddy issues or I have disattachment. And I wonder if there's a way that we could like, I want people to have it like, I don't want people to have to do all the work that we've had to do to get here because I still feel like, I'm always thinking about the audience. I'm always thinking about people listening and I, cause I know them so well. I know everyone so well who's been here with me for so long and been here, you know, listening. It's like, I know that we talk about this cause we've been in it. Yeah, yeah. But for some people they're like, again, they go to like, oh, but my childhood was perfect.

52:52Emily Morse: Or it's hard to get to that. Like, it's taken so long to realize that your parents did the best they could. It's generational. They didn't know how to attune to your needs. No one's parents really did. And when it comes to dating, I didn't even get this for a while. Like, I realized that for me, that pattern wasn't maybe just because I was telling this because I want people to understand it. It was like, my conditioning is that lost my father young age. He was my rock. Suppose I lost him at 20. And that so when that happened, I felt very alone. I didn't have like the family that came in. This is a common story for people.

53:26Emily Morse: I'm going it all alone. I can do everything. I can't actually rely on anyone else to be there for me. So I'm going to do it all. And in that doing it all, it's going to create a lot of chaos, a lot of busyness. So I'm actually not even really open for intimacy. It's because I'm shut down. And also I'm not open for intimacy because if I actually love someone again, as much as I deeply loved my father, say, this pain is too much. I don't want them again. So there's layers to that. So then what for me, I might try to do is, I'm just working this out, I'll find someone and then I'll think a glimmer, not consciously, oh my God, they could probably can, we could create something here.

54:03Emily Morse: They could help. Maybe they're going to save me in some way. Maybe I am going to finally be able to feel safe and loved. And then that's unfair, maybe in a way, even though, but then I'm still distant. I don't know that was happening. Yeah. I mean, it reminds me of like, does that explain it people's yeah i mean it reminds me when a friend of mine lost his mom a couple years ago and then he more recently broke up with his girlfriend and he was like yeah she she just wasn't there for me enough and i was like were you looking for the love of your mom and your girlfriend because they're not the same yeah we'll never provide that and your girlfriend isn't your mom and could never provide that sense of eternal connection and bond and he goes oh shit yeah i just broke up with her because that's i wanted her to enact and be my mom right so basically when our partners to be our parents we're complex we're human and you know to go back to what you're you were asking about like how do we simplify it yeah yeah yeah i want to like i want like an acronym yeah i want like a 10 minute morning exercise figure out your pattern here's like two really good easy ways is when I'm with someone, can I breathe?

55:19Can I literally feel and breathe? Is everything constricted?

55:24Emily Morse: Like meaning like, yeah, like, yeah. Am I like shallow breath? Yeah. Things like that. And it's like when I'm in the trauma tingles, for example, I'm not deep breathing. I'm not grounded in what, what do I want for dinner? What do I want to, um, watch tonight on television, it becomes about them in the trauma tingles. And if I'm like, oh, I want the spark back. I want the spark back. I would go back to when was the last time you slowed down, took the time to taste something like an apple. Like if you can't be in the nuance of flavors of something you get and have in the everyday, how do you expect to do that with a partner?

56:03Emily Morse: I love that. And like lead into, because usually when we can't lead in with a partner, we're sort of numb to a lot of things. So just starting with what am I tasting or what am I smelling? What am I seeing in my environment? And grounding in all of our senses will help us get back to our sensuality and our connection. Yeah, we got to wake up every possible receptor in us to be more receptive to what they have to offer us. Yeah, because what percentage of people you see are walking around numb? 89 to 100. I mean, we're all, most of us are. I mean, I think that have some level of overriding or numbness, like whether it's from work or our asshole boss or our neighbor who's too nosy or whatever, that we feel conditioned to not have a full emotional expression with, to like process all of that.

56:52And so we just kind of shut it down. And that shutdown layers over time. And the onion that we peeled away before.

57:01Emily Morse: Oh, the onions that were bumping up against? The onions that were bumping right that peeled away to reveal more of ourself and feel that connection. Those layers get put back over time if we're not in a safe place, if we're not emotionally processing, all those things. And then we get back to shallow zone. Yeah. Without the spark. And that's when people complain. There's no spark in the shallow zone. In the shallow, traumatized, yeah, building resentment zone. So how do you think that you've learned to avoid the trauma tangles. Yeah. So one of the things I had to learn how to do personally is like being more comfortable with what we might deem as boring because...

57:45Emily Morse: In a human or in a situation or in a moment? In a relationship. So it's like, it's not a sparky spark. That might be actually okay. And a deeper like impassioned spark actually might emerge from what we were calling boring. If we're used to going on roller coasters, then simply going for a really beautiful walk may seem boring. But it's that beautiful walk that's more sustainable and we can keep going on it where it's harder to keep going on the roller coaster physiologically. Yeah. And, you know, I think for myself, like I'm really going on more dates and I'm not looking for that ultimate spark.

58:26I'm looking for.

58:27Emily Morse: That's the shift. can I invest do I want to invest my energy attention and emotion do I get a multitude of things from this like did I get a couple laughs out of this did I get to feel or reveal something more in myself did I get to know them and something that they don't often share did we get to have an interesting experience like those things will build more of the ultimate spark early on will build more that ultimate spark that we're looking for that's sustainable and i know it's not the trauma tingle yeah yeah and i went on someone with date with someone recently where i was like oh this is my trauma tingle like i named it because they started like saying oh my gosh i'm so into you and then the next day they were like oh i'm not sure and next day they were like i'm back in and I just said, no.

59:20Emily Morse: See, that's when we know we've actually made steps towards healing patterns. When you're like, oh, I didn't go, I didn't take the bait, I didn't go back into it. I hadn't noticed. Yeah, when I was like, I'm not afraid of losing you because I'm more afraid of losing myself. Yeah, which is the greatest act of self-love to be able to make that change. Yes, and before, how I knew it was a drama dingles is I kept losing myself. Wow, look up for her. That's good. This is really, really, really inspiring to notice, to see our behaviors and to be able to change them. We're not stuck in any way. We don't have to be stuck.

59:56Emily Morse: It's really just like awareness, attuning, paying attention to how people make you feel, what you value, and how you want to feel with somebody. Like I said, what I started to say is we felt great. I feel like if you meet a new friend or a new job or a new place and you have a feeling that feels good in your body, we should be looking for that in partners too. So yeah, when you're feeling this, It's probably time to walk away. Bye, rollercoaster. Bye. Chasing love. Hello, sustainability. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what else? One more thing. The boring thing was interesting because, you know, I have a lot of experience with boring.

1:00:29Yeah.

1:00:29Emily Morse: And I think that boring, meaning that I have a hard time with that. But there's also, there's like, I want the kind of boring. I think that there's the boring that comes with stability. No rollercoaster. We go on walks. We take pottery classes. There's the boring with this person is just doesn't make any. effort effort doesn't do anything shallow nothing interesting like that's boring too that's a different I felt that was a personal thing I had to say to people important important oh okay well thank you Dr. Scott Lyons for being here this is so fun that was a fun little roller coaster of a show we got the can we have the spark what's the spark about what's the healthy spark don't let it be a trauma tingle in your pants let it be the good kind of spark let it and how to keep it sustainable And maybe even F the spark because there are other ways to create a more sustainable, healthy, loving relationship that actually can go the distance and feel good in your nervous system.

1:01:26Yeah, fuck the intensity. Let's roll on into intimacy. Yes. I love that.

1:01:31Emily Morse: More intensity. More intimacy, less intensity.

1:01:39Emily Morse: That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to Sex with Emily. If you love the show, please like, subscribe, and leave a review wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, share this with a friend or partner. It just might spark something. You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok, and X. It's all at sexwithemily. And I've been told I give really good email. So sign up at sexwithemily.com for free guides, articles, and more ways to prioritize your pleasure. Have a question about sex, dating, or relationships? call my hotline 559-TALK-SEX. That's 559-825-5739 or leave a message at sexwithemily.com slash ask.

1:02:22Emily Morse: And hey, was it good for you? Email me anytime at feedback at sexwithemily.com. I'd love to hear what you're thinking.