PSG retain the Champions League, plus Arsenal's trophy parade

0:00Ryan Hunn: Who knew Walmart business could help a thriving office motivate their employees? Pamela knew. She uses Walmart business to get the assortment of items her team needs at the prices she loves. As the office manager, it's my job to make sure my team stays on top of their game. I can get the basics like cleaning supplies and paper towels, but what they really care about, snacks. And she can get everything they need when they need it. Greg loves wheat crackers, Brenda craves sour candy, and Max, oh boy. He needs protein bars and milk and applesauce and jerky. Built for your business. Who knew?

0:55Musa Okwonga: hello and welcome back to

0:56Ryan Hunn: stadia podcast i'm me so quonga i'm ryan hun ryan how you doing doing all right thanks man doing all right thanks i'm fine i think i'm finally just got the last bit of red smoke out of my nose and lungs you're all paraded up i am i am how are you i'm very very well

1:13Musa Okwonga: very well uh very much enjoyed the champions league final yeah yeah uh i was it was funny i was weighing up whether to watch it with friends or like by myself in my in my man cave and sometimes just analysing a game I love having a single game to watch and analyse and just absorb everything because you just see every single detail and you talk about a details game this was a details final

1:36Ryan Hunn: it was a details game I'm really intrigued to get your take on it because I watched it at the Emirates Stadium screening shouts to Callum Jacobs by the way who sorted that out just interested to see your perspective on it as a as a neutral as well because it was really strange like we'll touch on it but I felt um weirdly calm throughout so I'm intrigued to see with maybe I'm remembering it in the same way as you were but um before we get into it let's do some admin quick we hope everyone stays safe and well wherever you are world cup schedule so our world cup schedule will be pretty much the same as our normal schedule so we're going to do a show on patreon just uh after the world cup starts so I think we're going to do that one on Friday the 12th and then And every single Monday show through the World Cup will be free on the free feed, which means you'll get a show after the quarterfinals and the final and stuff like that, but also just through the tournament.

2:37Ryan Hunn: The Wednesday and the Friday shows will be on Patreon just like normal. And that will slightly change in the final week of the tournament. I think one show might move or two shows might move around just based on the semifinals. But yeah, it's pretty much as it is at the moment. so if you want to sign up and get all of the World Cup stuff as well as every single episode ad free in full go to patreon.com forward slash stadio we might also be doing a couple of other bits and bobs through the tournament as well so you know keep an eye out for that but yeah stadio will remain unchanged pretty much and kind of mirroring what we or echoing what we usually do in international tournament and if we need to do bonus stuff we will do bonus stuff absolutely other bits of admin live show at the South Bank Centre July 23rd, the Thursday after the World Cup final Musa, myself and Nish Kumar are going to be at the South Bank Centre, if you want to get your tickets the link is in the description and I think that's all the admin there might be a Patreon newsletter going up this week with some final thoughts of the season also we're not going to talk about it today but we're going to address it quickly now Arna Slott parted ways with Liverpool.

3:55Ryan Hunn: But luckily enough, we'd already lined up a Liverpool-related guest for the next episode. So that's going to go up on Thursday before the news broke. We were going to do an end of season kind of like wrap up and a bit of a chat with Neil Atkinson from the Anfield Wrap. So Neil's going to come back on on Thursday and we will talk about Arna Shlott, Liverpool season, the more general big picture season thoughts for other non-Liverpool things as well. And hopefully by then will know who Liverpool's new manager will be. Yes. With it being rumoured to be Dandone and Raiola, which is wild. Reuniting with Kyrgyz, my goodness.

4:31Ryan Hunn: I know. So that's all the admin for now. So I reckon we just get on to the Champions League final. Do it. Who knew Walmart Business could help a thriving office motivate their employees? Pamela knew. She uses Walmart Business to get the assortment of items her team needs at the prices she loves. As the office manager, it's my job to make sure my team stays on top of their game. I can get the basics like cleaning supplies and paper towels, but what they really care about, snacks. And she can get everything they need when they need it. Greg loves wheat crackers, Brenda Crave sour candy, and Max, oh boy, he needs protein bars and milk and applesauce and jerky.

5:06Ryan Hunn: It's Walmart, built for your business. Who knew?

5:11All right, man.

5:12Ryan Hunn: So PSG won, Arsenal won. PSG retaining the Champions League after beating Arsenal 4-3 on penalties Kai Havertz taking a very early lead for Arsenal after 6 minutes and it was Manu Dembele with the equaliser for PSG from the penalty spot after 65 minutes and that was kind of the main stuff from the game but there was much more within that so as the neutral on the podcast Moussa give me your give me your thoughts

5:47Musa Okwonga: first of all congratulations PSG who named an identical outfield lineup to last year which is pretty incredible yeah talk about a statement of intent and also I would say although commiserations also congratulations to Arsenal who I think emerged with their reputations enhanced from this every player that had a question mark over them or had something to prove at this level went up a notch The Kai Havertz goal was peak Marco van Basten. What a goal. To finish at that moment, to finish like that, that early, that's a finish that any striker of an elite, that was a batter's three to finish. This was the final element.

6:27Musa Okwonga: If Kai Havertz can take that and his second goal now, Champions League finals, if he can take that goal and move on from here because he's got two really important, I think two of his most important goals this season have been in Champions League. If he can take this and push on and also the title-clinching goal has to be noted as well title coaching goal then that's really exciting for him I thought elsewhere I've just got to highlight Myles Lewis Skelly gave us what I can call this is what I call a minimalist masterclass right you have almost none of the ball you complete 12 passes you never get caught your entire job is defensive and you never get caught in possession right an entire game and of the passes that you do play normally this is the thing the thing that makes this performance so incredible most defenders most midfielders that play in a defensive capacity when they have a chance to make a killer pass because there's so much in the defensive mindset they don't pull off anything more than a small forward pass there's a moment in the first half when he's been under so much pressure defensively he spins off and he rips a ball he rips a 20 yard pass into feet rips it across and it it was such a momentum shifter it meant mind-blowing i saw this and i was like i think I might have texted you at the time and I'm like what the hell are we mind-blowing the only reason he's not player of the match I think there were a couple of players who shaded it because they had so much more of the ball but this is the football equivalent of Sir Anthony Hopkins winning like you know best actor like whatever like with like 20 minutes of screen time it's that equivalent in terms of you have like almost no possession and the things you're doing will not necessarily show up on the stat sheet but to do this as a teenager Champions League final put it this way If someone said to you two years ago that Zaya Emery will not even be the best double-barreled midfielder in the Champions League final, as amazing as Zaya Emery is, like the fact that Lewis Skelly has overtaken so much of the young field in Europe.

8:29If you think of where he was before the season started, the challenges during the season, you know, second season syndrome, but also positional, you know, changes and whatever, playing in tough positions.

8:41Musa Okwonga: Arteta trusting him? Arteta, as we know, is so tactically fierce that Eze struggled to get back in, even after his kind of Cinderella start. If you look at how exacting tactically a manager Arteta is and how much he trusts him in these games. It's wild, man. It's astonishing. I have to talk about him that much because I don't know how much he's going to be talked about. But this blew my mind.

9:06Ryan Hunn: You made the Oscars analogy, but it's Francis McDormand for Fargo. It is. 27 minutes of screen time in that. It was 27 minutes.

9:15Musa Okwonga: 27 minutes. He was unbelievable. I mean, he was everywhere in the best sense. He was great.

9:21Ryan Hunn: He was really, really good. He was very important for the way that Arsenal wanted to play because Arsenal taking that early lead was kind of a blessing and a curse in a way because if you looked at what happened before they took the lead they'd actually lined up in a really interesting way they'd basically done what pep had done to them in the carabao cup final they just lined up as a four in front of psg basically couldn't really do anything no they had a lot of the ball and i've seen you know i've kind of checked a bit of i've got reaction on carry on i've got thoughts and i think that there's been so much just x amount of possession i'm like yeah i get it but you know there's a real feel in temperature this was a 75 % but real feel 60 maybe 65 do you know what I mean yeah yeah yeah when Arsenal scored they kind of stopped doing that which I thought was a bit of a shame because that's the only thing that I meant look that I'm like minor minor nitpicking here but I just thought look it was very early in the game and I know it was only five or six minutes in but I didn't fancy Arsenal to hold out for 80 odd minutes just because PSG in an attacking sense is so good saying that though Arsenal have a very very good chance to make it too with Kai Havertz and so it wasn't like Arsenal just basically sat on the edge of their own box for the rest of the half or the game actually and they broke through a couple of times that time you mentioned with Myles' pass through midfield but yeah that was the only thing I was just like oh man it would have actually been cool to see if they could have stepped on it a little bit caveating that the times where PSG looked the most threatening were the very very few occasions that they kind of got in behind but that didn't really happen in the first it didn't happen it didn't happen in the second obviously it didn't really

10:56Musa Okwonga: happen in extra time and this is my hot take I don't think they were listening to Luis Enrique what I remember that is I think there were periods of the game when they were ignoring his tactical instructions and I say this specifically because if you look at Douay and Quarretz Scalier on the flanks I think they underestimated the quality of Barcelona's defence because some of the stuff they were trying the combination play was like a bit disrespectful I don't mean in a kind of like baller league I mean in a kind of like they were trying things that were just not going to work against defenders of Arsenal's quality so some of the flicks some of this it wasn't like look we I'm not saying about flicks that turn the corner I'm saying it was like ostentatious well three of that back four didn't play against PSG last season right so this was maybe that was part of it but they were trying stuff that I was like in the knockouts sorry like it was this this flicks and this showboating and I I'm not I love showboating what I'm saying is these defenders are too good for this stuff to work and you saw it was kind of like cringe to be honest because what i think arthur did so well quiet scaler and duet as specific spots they love the inside right pocket that we see duet score from time and again quiet scaler that was locked off locked off and one thing that luis enrique was talking about with vitina who i thought was excellent was really the the importance of patience i thought vitina was extremely patient but those two wingers weren't and they were told they were instructed to switch flanks very often but normally psg switching flanks is like a tactical thing this time i saw I saw it out of frustration actually and we were talking Mario was talking in the chat like why are they crossing it so much when you know Lewis and Riqui why is Lewis okay tell him to do that I don't think he's telling him to do that I think they are frustrated I think they rely a lot on innovation I mean this is a team that just blew away Bayern in the first leg trying everything and getting everything their own way and I think maybe they thought we can do this but you can't like I think they underestimated the quality of the defence and actually the crucial point came it's I mean I talked about this and not to sort of you know self-praise but the thing I always thought about was the concern I had for Arsenal is one concern I identified I think before I don't know if it was on this podcast but I was like they need to get Kwarat Scala going both ways right you need to have him turning as much as you can and Mosquera for all his defensive quality which is very high in this final he does not have the attacking heft to make Kwarat Scala constantly turn constantly turn constantly turn and I think ultimately that is the pressure that bore because down that right flank, you needed more impetus.

13:21Musa Okwonga: Whether it meant Timber coming slightly earlier, even using Timber as a winger or whatever, just something more unconventional to have Quart Scaler defending the halfway line instead of pushing into the final third, you needed something else. Because ultimately, if you give Quart Scaler that many looks, it turns that flank into a runway. And that is what happened. And it's a small margin, right? I just think that even 55 minutes, there should have been some kind of change. I think it should have been, I think some kind, maybe one or two changes and again these are small margins because I thought that I thought Arsenal were virtually tactically perfect yeah and that's

13:55Ryan Hunn: and also does it make sense yeah completely I think also I think both penalty shouts the one that was given for PSG and the one that wasn't given for Arsenal I think are so I think the PSG one is more of a penalty than the Arsenal one or the Arsenal shout but I think that if the Arsenal one had been given I don't think it gets overturned and vice and likewise with the PSG one. I think if that isn't given, I'm not sure they then award a penalty.

14:23Musa Okwonga: We have to mention that we saw the referee turning as well. Daniel Siebert, we saw the referee turning towards the end of the first half when he doesn't let Saka take the corner. He's like, you've taken too long. And there was a moment in the game where you felt the referee just going, you're just trying to buy anything.

14:38Ryan Hunn: However, I've got to say this for, I was very nervous about the Saka handball. Because in Europe, I thought that would have been a penalty. Well, this is absolutely,

14:48Musa Okwonga: and I don't think the referee was. I don't think it should be,

14:50Ryan Hunn: but I think in Europe it has been a penalty like that.

14:53Musa Okwonga: And I don't think the referee did a bad job. I thought he actually did a very creditable job. I think actually what you need to do, again, I keep coming to Clive's quote on the Arsenal podcast, Arsenal Vision, was it? He said, you have to play the game that's on offer. And I think that the game that was on offer changed in the second half and Arsenal did not adapt. And this is, again, very fine margins, but understanding there were calls you're not going to get. And I think the other thing I would say as well, tactically, Arteta, I'm going to be critical. The ball was not sticking to Havertz as much as it had in the second, in the second half as it had in the first.

15:23Musa Okwonga: And that's also tiredness. And just when they knew, I think they identified that the runners off Havertz weren't going to be, the ball wasn't sticking. I thought Eze should have come in because Eze is someone who has the ability to hold the ball up and Winfrey kicks high up the pitch. Like, you know, like Pete Grealish in the early years of City. Havertz moving the ball, Eze holding the ball up because what Eze was doing so well, under Arteta in the Premier League at the late stages was pushing the ball without pushing, without forcing the game. And I think that type of tempo in this match was absolutely key.

15:58Musa Okwonga: And to be fair to him, we're not saying anything that they're not going to say looking back over the tape because this was really, I think, in Arsenal's hands. And it was funny because when I was watching the game as a neutral, in extra time, I'm like, yeah, Arsenal should have won this already. This should be over. This should actually be over. And I think the PSG, to their credit, they regrouped once Mosquera got the yellow they really like they centred it and they started going down

16:22Ryan Hunn: that side aggressively I agree with what you said there about that because I think if Timber's fit enough to come in on 65 minutes then he's fit enough to come in on 55 minutes and it's so small it's literally a 10 minute gap it's tiny but also you have to say that before that Mosquera had actually dealt with Kravitz-Gelliot extremely well it's the quietest that that PSG by far front three have been look put it this way this is the side Have they scored a record amount of goals in the Champions League or something? They didn't score an open play. They didn't score an open play against Arsenal across 120 minutes.

16:55Ryan Hunn: A lot of people are talking about that Arsenal had one shot on target and that's a fair criticism as well. Yes, it is. I think Arsenal's major, I'm not going to say disappointment, but maybe you can clearly see the area that they need to elevate the next is to turn that front four into a little bit more of a technical, potent attacking force than it hasn't been this season. But I also, I think that's been a lot of a chemistry and an availability issue that has affected Arsenal through the season. That's not to make excuses. I think that if you look at the way that the two sides matched up, PSG probably the best attacking three or four in the world if you include one or two of those midfielders in that as well.

17:41Ryan Hunn: Arsenal the best out of possession team in the world I think because of that they do they don't get quite the credit for their technical prowess but you can definitely see that there's a there's just a rhythm to the way that PSG played that they have the reps in doing so and there's a rhythm to how Arsenal played that they've had to play this season and so you can clearly see the next evolution of where this side will come from Well I would say

18:09Musa Okwonga: put the last four if you look at the four semi-finalists of the Champions League and if you look at their front four or their front three and if you look at the room for like growth the room for development I think actually funnily enough this is a bit of a hot tape if you take almost if you take any one of those wide forwards or strikers from the other three semi-finalists and put them in this game for Arsenal I think Arsenal it gets them over the line I don't mean in terms of goals that are scored I mean in terms of occupying a fullback

18:38Ryan Hunn: because Saka had

18:40Musa Okwonga: in the first half Saka really had his opposite man in trouble had Mendes in trouble I think I thought he struggled in the second half actually I thought the second half there was a lack of shot the first half I think he was moving him out of position really really actually probably the best move

18:55Ryan Hunn: of the first half that little give and go it was the one where Havertz should have scored the second I think

19:00Musa Okwonga: exactly it's that so he was moving out of position really well Mendes likes to be on the front foot playmaking he had to defend so much in this game I thought Saka lost effectiveness in the second half to an extent you know, these again, losses, small margins, but I have to mention again, not for the first time in this podcast, not the last, Declan Rice, astonishing. Astonishing from start to finish. Two incredible hours kept by scoring in the shootout. And, you know, my, you know, from, from the, from the UK, you know, my football of the year, I just thought four fronts that Arsenal competed on and to be doing this after everything and I think it's he's one of those people that could say this is only the beginning and it wouldn't sound weird it wouldn't sound cliche because I think it is because I think that Arsenal are slightly ahead of schedule in terms of where they finished in this year's Champions League I think slightly ahead of schedule not much but slightly

19:57Ryan Hunn: oh no I think they're way ahead actually right right because I think it's coming back into the competition after such a time without it and going quarterfinal, semi-final, final, I think is kind of unbelievable.

20:12Musa Okwonga: It is unbelievable. My pre-match prediction to a friend of mine was actually 1-0 Arsenal. I thought pre-match that Arsenal would win it. I thought, and the only reason they didn't is because Vittinho, I thought, controlled things superbly. I thought that he... Charles Neves was very good as well. He was very good. I think those two, they were the two players that didn't get frustrated.

20:33Ryan Hunn: Do you know what? It's ironic I actually said that because one of the three of them was the most experienced one who kept getting... I was like, these guys need to have a word with Fabian Ruiz. Yeah, totally. We talked about the referee briefly before, but I think there were a couple of moments I think Fabian Ruiz could have been booked very early. I think Ashraf Akimi is lucky on Havertz because a more, let's say, main character ref might do something severe there because he kind of clotheslines him. Great point, yeah. I mean, look, if he'd gone, I would have been like, that was one of my players.

21:13Ryan Hunn: Or the players of the team I support, I'd be a bit like, that's a bit harsh.

21:17Musa Okwonga: Also, what are you playing at? Yeah, exactly.

21:19Ryan Hunn: You just shouldn't give the referee that decision. I think there were a couple of early, the referee was not keen on giving out cards super early, but I think there were a few he could have given cards for. And with what happened later on in the game, they could have affected it in quite a dramatic way, actually.

21:34Musa Okwonga: Yeah. I think if we're talking about other individuals, I just want to mention, obviously, Ousmane Dembele for a superb penalty. And just selfless running. Tried a lot of things that didn't work. I thought some of the crosses obviously were not signs of frustration, but I think failures of imagination just because they weren't seeing gaps. And I think it's hard to express. And I think Fettino talked about this, what it's like when you've got basically a back six in front of you and to break through that is really, really hard to find gaps. Rye is not someone you're going to easily beat from distance, you know, and Rye outstanding again in the shootout.

22:10Musa Okwonga: So I thought, yeah, Dembele and now from a player that was, there's a lot of talk about, you know, how well Lewis Enrique has coached the side. I think the best example of that is still Ousmane Dembele because this guy at one point, we really thought for years he wouldn't achieve what he should. And now back-to-back Champions Leagues and will be a Ballon d 'Or finalist. Won't win because I think he's played too little football for that, but will be a finalist again. And is, you know, king of France at this point. One of the few royals I don't acknowledge.

22:47Musa Okwonga: But yes, many congratulations to him. And elsewhere, yeah, not much else to say really about this game. I just want to mention again the David Ryder save in the shootout because what a momentum shift that was. I don't like to dwell on shootouts only because I don't think they're really a bit of a crapshoot and I don't like to judge players on them. Credit to everyone that stepped up and took one. Safonov, I've got to say he's impressed me this season. I have to say he's impressed me. I know he was leaping early in the shootout, but to come in like he has after Donnarumma and get this done, he probably won't get the plaudits because of who's playing in front of him.

23:24Musa Okwonga: But I think he deserves them. So yeah, and that's it. PSG back to back. Congratulations to them. I mean, let's talk about just quickly on that.

23:35Ryan Hunn: I think because before we talk about some other stuff, but just on PSG, I think that what you're seeing now is the real maturation. of the PSG project. It's a similar thing that what happened with Manchester City but in a different way I think where slightly different way where what years of that kind of wiggle room gets you it gets you to the point when you get like a Tuchel who takes him to the final and then you know a couple of other managers in there then you get the you land the Luis Enrique who is perfectly positioned at a point where they've kind of gone through that Galacticos period they're still spending a huge amount of money but I think that combination of people are actually able to be coached like extremely talented like they've got a great youth academy anyway Paris is obviously an absolute hot bed of talent but they're also able to take really really good young talent from elsewhere in France and now you've got that point where Luis Enrique is a perfect coach for that and I think you're in that position with PSG where it's kind of similar to Pep at City right where if it's an undercoached they don't win these back-to-back Champions Leagues.

24:44Ryan Hunn: They just don't. I'm not sure they win one of them, actually.

24:49Musa Okwonga: No, no, they don't. They don't. And actually, can I just jump in there? Because if you look at the team that reached the final in 2020, the Champions League, Marquinhos is the only player, I think, that survives. I think he's the only player that is in the same lineup. He's a completely... I mean, look, for context, the last one was Kellen Aves, Telegra, Thiago Silva, Perez O 'Kanpembe, Ram Bernat, Ander Herrera, Marquinhos, Leandro Paredes, Angel Di Maria, and Kylian Mbappé. Wow. It's a completely different team, right? Yeah. Not completely, but you know, one player. Yeah, yeah. It's a big, big turnover.

25:20And I think the one thing I'll say about this,

25:23Musa Okwonga: and this is important to talk about, I think first of all, PSG, incredible support, incredible organic support. The fan base is exceptional. They were loud throughout and they just, they've been brilliant since the inception of that club. And Paris has a hotbed for global talent. Just everyone knows about it. What PSG, I think, has done really effectively is funding that talent. And like you say, they could afford to pay 50 million to get Desiree Douai from Rennes. That, within the French transfer market, that's an astonishing amount of money. Like the power of that level of finance, it's something else.

25:58Musa Okwonga: Now, there's conversations about state-owned clubs and wealthy people. There's a big difference between being a state owning a club and a wealthy person owning a club. There's a big difference. There's also a big difference between a state having a specific project and a state being disinterested and fickle, like and Qatar are locked in on football being the core of their identity, right? Traditionally, when states have had heavy involvement in footballing projects, it hasn't ended well, like more broadly. It hasn't ended well. Now, at this point, look what we're seeing. We're seeing astonishing football.

26:30Musa Okwonga: We're seeing a team that's optimized its playing resources. We're seeing a team with one of the highest imaginable financial flaws in terms of the salaries you can pay, the retention you can get, the amount you can outbid if you have to. We know all of that, right? And it is a factor. And I'm not saying this to be a kill draw. I'm saying this to put a pin in this because this will come at a cost. We don't know what the cost is yet.

26:56Ryan Hunn: I think from my point of view, it's just more like three of the last four Champions Leagues now have been state-owned ones. And it took PSG and Manchester City so long to get there. That's what I'm talking about, like kind of almost seeing like the maturation of that project.

27:10Musa Okwonga: Yeah, no, no.

27:11Ryan Hunn: I'm really intrigued to see what happens next season because I think if PSG win another one next season, you'll start seeing more people talk about it.

27:17Musa Okwonga: And the reason why you have to mention it, the reason we have to mention is because, and the reason I talk about it is because look, financially, what is possible for a player, for a team to achieve, the standards to which Arsenal are being held or any other club for that matter are going to be unrealistic if you don't talk about the financial resources because there's no way, Arsenal could not mobilise the resources to get to put out the team?

27:40Ryan Hunn: I mean, it's not really resources. I'm wary of using a resources thing from an Arsenal point of view because they are an extremely wealthy club. They're about to make a record amount of prize money and all of this stuff. So it's not really like a, you know, this isn't like a Freiburg playing Villa or a Rio Vallecano playing. It's more of the, and it isn't even a complaint. It was just literally just an observation. I think it's interesting that you're seeing now. I can say it.

28:08Musa Okwonga: I can say it. I can say it. I can say it. I can say it.

28:10Ryan Hunn: All right. But no one needs a whiny Arsenal fan after the Champions League final being like, guys, we got no money. That's what I'm here for.

28:19Musa Okwonga: And again, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it more that, I'm saying it more in terms of I spent a lot of money last year. Financial optimisation is possible. It just gives you more room for error. It does. It does.

28:30Ryan Hunn: And it gets you to this point where you, you know, if you don't come out of the blocks with a fully fledged plan, you come out of the blocks and you sign name off 200 odd million euros. I mean, that was actually, to be honest, that was too far into the project for that to be okay.

28:46Musa Okwonga: Also as well, can I be honest with you, I still blame Barcelona for that. I still blame the lawyer, the drafted. I don't even blame PSG for that. I blame Barcelona for drafting a clause.

28:57Ryan Hunn: Poor Barcelona gets straight. Come on, man. Look at that. What were you thinking?

29:01Musa Okwonga: That probably comes up in contract law, in law school, as like the single and most disastrous clause that the single most disastrous release clause in football history. Because again, I was going to pay that. I was going to pay that. Generally one of the turning points, one of the turning points in global football history, because how much of this happens? And to be honest, actually, I think interesting enough, if Neymar's not available, I think PSG go to this model earlier. I think they go to the model of, I think this, I think this, I think this version of PSG happens eventually because look, Oh yeah, of course.

29:37Musa Okwonga: There's a lot of smart people in that administration that run PSG. And at some point they were like, hang on a minute, we've got the talent here. What are we doing? What are we actually doing? Like we don't need to pay for, go there and find Neymar. We've got Desiree Dure.

29:51Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I'm just interested to see how long it takes if like a Man City or PSG win like another Champions League next season. I wonder then, I think if it's PSG and they win three in a row. I think people start to kind of go hang on a minute you know like more more neutrals start doing I think for now I think for now this conversation I think for now yeah I think for now they're just a bit everyone's just really delighted that Arsenal didn't win it and I get it Luis Enrique though I think Luis Enrique I want to give Luis Enrique some flowers because well two PSG personnel I want to give specific flowers to Luis Enrique because incredible coach I think that he has made he is weirdly in their most successful period in their history he's made PSG quieter as a as a kind of institution yep and it's very difficult to maintain the level that they reached in the back end of last season and they have done this season I think they've what he's done amazingly well this season and I think that it's it's just the right time for PSG to to capitalise on that is the way that he's rotated in the league specifically and I know they've had a few injuries but he's rotated so well in the league that he's I mean you look at the starts that PSG players have made in the league this season compared to starts that you know Arsenal players have made and it is kind of wild and it's but that's proper elite squad management.

31:33Ryan Hunn: Yes, it is. And I know that he has such a huge margin in the league because of the gap in wealth between PSG and the other clubs in Ligue 1. And just the general wealth of Ligue 1 clubs. But still, plenty of people haven't done that in the past. It's kind of what we were saying before. It's not really one or the other. I think one leads to the other or one aids the other, but it's not completely either or. The other person I want to shout out is Marquinhos. Because... The way that he went over to Gabriel after Gabriel missed the penalty, I think was one of my moments of the season. And I don't know if you've seen the video or if anyone hasn't seen it, but I think that...

32:12Ryan Hunn: Because he's standing there and everyone just flocks past him. Everyone just goes... He's the captain of that club and he's been there a long time. And I think that the way that he goes straight for Gabriel and then Martinelli comes over and the three of them kind of have a moment. It's actually quite moving. The three Brazilians.

32:30Musa Okwonga: but he knows he knows he's been there he lost in 2020 he lost in 2020 and he had to carry

32:35Ryan Hunn: what he said you know

32:36Musa Okwonga: yeah and I think there's a thing of the season that Gabriel's had and the journey that he's been on like we were I was posting a picture in the chat from one of the old lineups where Gabriel's the only surviving member of the Arsenal team and Marquinhos like no Marquinhos knows him well right like yeah they're good he's seen him that man like as much as Saka gets the plaudits for rebuilding this Arsenal. Gabriel's done it too in his own way. He's been there through the worst, like he's some awful times. And this, I don't think was the crowning glory, the culmination, because I think that they'll be at this stage again in the next two, three years, Arsenal.

33:12Musa Okwonga: It's more that, well, you know, the Champions League and the vagaries of it, but I think they should be back here in the next two, three years within that period. But for Gabriel to go through all of that and to be as brilliant as he has, to be as brilliant as he was in the final, actually. And it was so unfair. and you knew, I knew this shootout was going to come down to that. I knew it was going to be, there was going to feel, there was going to be an element of unfairness because no one really had failed in an outfield sense. There's no one that really deserved. Like there's sometimes people that have stinkers or come on, take a penalty alone and they're like, well, actually that person, you'd have no emotional attachment towards them.

33:46Musa Okwonga: But I thought that in this game, there was no one that was there that really failed in the two hours. Whether it was defensively or trying to attack and not finding options, finding gaps. Yeah. So really credit to Marquinhos because it was so much humanity. Yeah.

34:04Ryan Hunn: Just a really nice moment, I think. So much humanity, yeah. All right. I mean, you mentioned the penalties there. I think, you know, both of them, this is going to sound so, both of them were struck too well, the ones that Arsenal missed.

34:19Musa Okwonga: Yeah, yeah. As they sent in the wrong way.

34:21Ryan Hunn: I know, I know. I want to talk about those in a little bit with regards to the parade. But from an Arsenal point of view after this now, looking big picture, an incredible season. The parade yesterday, which I was at, honestly was one of the most joyful collective experiences I think I've ever had, if not the single most. Wow.

34:42Musa Okwonga: Wow. That's, yeah.

34:44Ryan Hunn: It kind of almost started the day before really. But from Arsenal, quickly before I get onto that, from a football billing point of view, an unbelievable season from them with real adversity as well I think in terms of some of the some of the injury struggles that they still had it's a big summer for them I think you'll see a couple of players go I think you'll see two quite big either midfielder or attacking signings I think maybe you'll see one fairly superstar level signing and two really really smart ones and that's clearly the next evolution of this arsenal team and i think what's different to this year than 2006 is that this very much feels like not the beginning because you're not at the beginning you know the beginning was a few years ago but this doesn't feel like the you know like when the ajax group got knocked out in 2019 and everyone was just like right that team's just going to break apart now right right it doesn't feel like that for this arsenal team it feels like a lot of people will be looking at it.

35:48Ryan Hunn: They're the Premier League champions. They're in an extremely wealthy league now, which means that they can compete financially. They can outbid the majority of teams, like just the Premier League in general, can attract players and pay more than a lot of other places elsewhere in Europe. So that gives them an advantage there. Also, buying into a project, it feels like a really good place to be. And so there will be players like even... Look, I even think people like... They may not sign, but in the past, players like Jude Bellingham or Kylian Mbappe or Kravitz Skelia or Usman Dembele, whoever, or even Pedri or Lamin-Yemal, would never even think about going to Arsenal.

36:36Ryan Hunn: And they probably still won't go to Arsenal. But the thing that's different now to in the past is that none of those players are looking at Arsenal as an actual step down. Totally. That's huge. It's just different. It's different. It's not a step down or it's not like, why would I go to Arsenal? Yeah. You look at the people who departed after Arsenal lost to Barcelona in the Champions League in 2006. Ashley Cole left, Pascal Sigan left and now that might not sound like a big deal but he played a lot in that. Perez left and Sol Campbell left and Jose Antonio Reyes went to Real Madrid on loan. So there were like big departures out.

37:14Ryan Hunn: Huge. Yeah, yeah. And they also left Highbury it felt very much like the end of an era and the dawning of a new one that was really uncertain what's what feels like at the moment for Arsenal is that I suppose the crowning of how good this group really is and I think a lot of the world has fully seen how big this club is now that's

37:32Musa Okwonga: right and I think wanted to be part of that I think look there are going to be some very interesting conversations this summer some of which will not end in transfers but conversations that I think Arsenal fans would not have thought possible I think what's really interesting is I think for PSG, what's interesting is do you twist or stick? Like, who do you add? Because this team has got you there so well right now. For context comparison, Desiree Dwayne scored seven league goals this year. Dembele scored 10 in 22 and quite a scale, I don't think, broke double figures. Like that midfield, that attack is...

38:16Musa Okwonga: well-rested and it's being optimized for, and that is not a criticism. It's being, again, it's squad rotation. Like they have the quality and they have the depth not to rotate. I looked at their bench and someone was saying in the chat, like, you know, what's the, who shifts the needle for PSG? And it's interesting because there isn't a huge amount of attacking variety on the bench. And by Mayulu, Lee, Barculler, who came on, who was brilliant when he came on, there isn't actually a huge amount of variety in the PSG. squad in terms of the attack, because I think the system is what it is. I don't think they need to do a huge amount more.

38:52Musa Okwonga: I think maybe one more midfielder, actually. I think one more midfielder, to give them a bit more depth at that position. Zaya Emery came in and was brilliant, but I think they need one more midfielder. And I think that's kind of it. I don't think they need to change anything else, actually, PSG. So for them, I think they should just run it back. I just think, you know, Lewis and Rick, another year of coaching them. I don't think there's a vast amount more they have to do. And Drey Fernandes is right there, too. it's a lot it's a lot so I think they're good but like again from the Arsenal perspective I'm just fascinated by the transfer window for them I think it's really interesting

39:26Ryan Hunn: and one of the things I think like we mentioned before is I think what's happened with the trophy win and also the parade which you know I think a lot of I saw a lot of people trying to banter I mean there's been loads of banter this weekend a lot of people trying to banter being like why would you have a parade after losing the final and I think what being there because being in the stadium watching the game on Saturday and it was really interesting at full time where once PSG won on penalties worth pointing out by the way sorry technically this means Arsenal went unbeaten in the Champions League this season which is wild yeah yeah yeah unbelievable there's such love for this team this specific group of players and people were clearly disappointed afterwards but there was no real like there was no one kind of like shouting at the team screen or anything it just felt a bit you know some people hung around some people got out of there that we we we got out there just as psg were about to lift the trophy i think i was a bit like no i'm good but the parade on sunday i think was a really important moment for the club and i think it was a really important moment for the players especially ez and gabriel who have been so important this season and one thing i noticed was that the two individual player chants that i heard the most all day with the Gabriel and Ezra chant.

40:46Musa Okwonga: So interesting.

40:46Ryan Hunn: It was loads of generic Arsenal ones, but I remembered hearing the Ezra chant and the Gabriel chant all day. And the parade was unbelievable. There are estimates all over the place, but they think it was upwards of 750 ,000 people. Huge numbers. Potentially a million in points. And Jack from Gagin was there, flew in that morning, 2am start, from Berlin to fly to London just for the parade. Incredible. People flew in from all over just to go to the parade. yeah you had to

41:13Musa Okwonga: yeah yeah

41:14Ryan Hunn: shouts to Alexis from Kooligans like I was with Alexis all day a load of New York crew flew in for it and for the game on Saturday as well

41:22Musa Okwonga: first league title in 22 years

41:24Ryan Hunn: it was honestly dude against that Manchester City it was unbelievable the parade just as a just as a day it felt like almost like a turbocharged carnival and I don't know it just felt I got there really early because I got down there because I was I just thought if I'm not down there by 12 you're not going to be able to get there and we were at the point outside 181 Holloway so it was it was really cool because you saw the bus come out and go up the road so you got the initial beginning of the parade and then you got the very end before they turned back into the stadium but just hilarious like seeing the evolution of people the first person to go up on the roof and then oh hang on a minute now the roof's full people everywhere the fire brigade had to take a load of lads down off or get the load of lads down off the shell garage because i don't think that that we could see there was only one of them on there and he i think he stood in the worst spot and it was already wobbling that roof and we're like this guy needs to get it's not long for this world yeah but just um a hugely diverse crowd of all ages like but but notice it was like quite a young, there was a lot of young fans, because you've got to remember, like I think a lot of these fans have grown up not seeing Arsenal win anything.

42:46Ryan Hunn: They don't remember the Invincibles. They don't remember the doubles. And they've basically just been like, they've just had the piss taken out of them for ages. And you could just see this collective outpouring of joy and just loads of different people talking to each other, having conversations, people offering each other stuff, like going to get some food, do you want any food? No, I'm good, thanks. You know what I mean? Like, does anyone want a drink? Like, just, it was just, it was honestly amazing, man. And it's an extension of what you saw on the Tuesday that Arsenal won the league. That was obviously like an organic, people just turned up at the stadium and it was this party.

43:21Ryan Hunn: The world is like on fire, right? There is just an infinite amount of horrific shit going on. And we're constantly being pitted against each other in a football sense, in a political sense, in a geographical sense, in a religious sense, in any way you want sense. it was just really fucking cool at the moment that a load of people could come together like that and celebrate something and a lot loads of different types of people you know i'm gonna

43:46Musa Okwonga: go wider i'm gonna wider i think it's actually quite culturally important to have those things and i say this because with reference to another club so i bumped into um shout out to ruben i bumped into a rayo varicada fan um at the weekend watching my local team uh so he's friends of a friend lovely guy and he was at the final um and he said it was amazing he said the whole run that rio had to the final the respect they had from other fans yeah you'll never forget that he said the palace fan shout out to them so they were so cool after the final it was amazing it was a really lovely gathering and they were so cool he said also shout out to the aak athens fans because they beat him in the semi so he was at the three nil the first leg rio won and they go to like athens and he said oh my god that fan he said they're incredible like they were three nil up a k and then they get like a late goal rio to go through and he just said the respect the love like what we stand for and i said you don't you have no idea rio as a fan base you didn't win that trophy but i said i hope that in time you reflect on that journey and how much love you've got along the way because your your fan base is like the gold standard what you go through your ownership yeah the effort you go to to to represent something bigger than yourself so it's like all of this matters and i say that example because i want to kind of you're not just saying from an arsenal perspective it's important because it's bigger than that like fan base community something more than football i think i think all of that and also just and like

45:12Ryan Hunn: neef said this neef york um and he said this after the uh sorry my voice is going it's a good job that yeah we don't have to do a podcast for a few days and he said that he'd never seen london like that after the title win so on the Tuesday thing he's never really seen London like that and he said this time as well he said he'd never seen like this is actually the parade was just he said maybe the England Euros final but he was just like we also heard a load of EDL chants of that not like this like this and do you know what was wild was so we're walking back into town and you couldn't get on a train people getting turned away from King's Cross dude honestly in my life I have never been in London where it's been busier.

45:58Ryan Hunn: There were people coming out of Kings Cross Station with luggage so they clearly just got into town and they must have thought like what the hell have I walked into? And this was a few hours after the parade had finished and miles, I mean not a huge amount but like miles away from the stadium and just still Arsenal fans everywhere. But also you had the Challenge Cup final on Saturday so you had a load of rugby league people down for the final on Saturday. You had the Women's FA Cup yesterday as well at Wembley and Soccer Aid right oh my god so it was just this obscene amount of stuff going on but it was just Arsenal fans everywhere it was wild if I support a team that really hated Arsenal I would have gone a friend who was a Spurs fan I would have gone to Edinburgh for the weekend or something like that put it this way I've got a friend

46:43Musa Okwonga: who's a Spurs fan here in Burnham he went to ground he was gone to ground you couldn't see him unplug the wifi unplug the router I just don't want to see him you know what that is that's self-care yeah I respect it. I respect that. I respect it.

46:56Ryan Hunn: We're having a no phone weekend.

46:58Musa Okwonga: Let me check if he's still answering messages. Still got the one tick. Still there. I just want to say, look, soak up the entire summer. Can I just say, like, you don't get this. This here isn't normal. No, it's not. A month of, like, I think for Arsenal fans, I think it's going to be easy to beat. And I said, this is for any fan that's not won a trophy in a while or whatever. Probably me in 15 years. I would say this. it's like um these moments it's easy to get caught up in like discourse and like you're not not don quixote just soak it up it's always i don't i don't want to be in my 60s the next time

47:33Ryan Hunn: i'm asked to win the league no i will be if we have to wait that long and here's the thing and

47:38Musa Okwonga: frankly like even if you are this every moment of this every barbecue every like house party of whatever just like it's pure vibes this is what it's for this is literally what the journey is for this is and actually it's funny because i feel like the champions league final funnily enough not an arsenal fan and i'm not saying it wasn't gutting for for them to lose but i still feel like i would have been a bonus i still feel like it would have been a bonus to win the champions league as well as important as it was um i'm not sensing the sort of the dev the deep devastation behind this than there would have been if they had lost the league.

48:19Musa Okwonga: I think that's just a different, I think something shifted actually. Yeah, I agree. I'm glad for it.

48:23Ryan Hunn: I agree and I think because they've had a habit of gradual improvement, I think that they feel, I mean it is really, really difficult to get to the Champions League final, it's extremely difficult to win it. It's extremely difficult to win

48:36Musa Okwonga: the league.

48:37Ryan Hunn: It's very much

48:37Musa Okwonga: like Klopp's Liverpool to be honest. If you look at Klopp's Liverpool at incremental improvements, everyone laughs about the team that Henderson was in in 2011-12 and they look at the Champions League final and like the evolution. I mean, Henderson went in a very kind of Gabriel type journey actually as someone that came from outside the club and then like became an emblem of the club, a symbol of the club. And you look at like Klopp in the Europa League final when they lose and everyone was like laughing at Klopp but I said they're only laughing because they know what's coming. People are only crowing because they've understood that Klopp and that team that lost to Seville in the final 3-1 that he'd maxed out, he'd optimized it.

49:11Musa Okwonga: and I think this is I think Arteta's done a similar thing they look it's a very different looking team and style but the principle of incremental improvement to the point where by the time Liverpool won the Champions League in 2019 you looked at every position on that pitch and the suspension you were like my god like it's unanswerable what they've created so yeah credit to them and bring on next domestic season yeah I mean you know do you know what

49:40Ryan Hunn: I'm going to sleep this week

49:42Musa Okwonga: oh god

49:45Ryan Hunn: I'm looking forward to just you and I you and I agreed on our holidays post World Cup and we were just like oh that is circled in the calendar alright so that'll do us for Champions League final who knew Walmart business could help a thriving office motivate their employees Pamela knew she uses Walmart business to get the assortment of items her team needs at the prices she loves As the office manager, it's my job to make sure my team stays on top of their game. I can get the basics like cleaning supplies and paper towels. But what they really care about, snacks. And she can get everything they need when they need it.

50:21Ryan Hunn: Greg loves wheat crackers, Brenda Crave sour candy, and Max, oh boy. He needs protein bars and milk and applesauce and turkey. Built for your business. Who knew?

50:34Ryan Hunn: Just very quickly, we shouted out the Women's FA Cup. Manchester City completed the domestic double, a 4-0 win over Brighton at Wembley on Sunday, thanks to goals from Bunny Shaw, Alex Greenwood, Ioba Fugino and Viviana Miedema. Gave Man City an emphatic win and they secured the domestic double after their double-sled.

50:54Musa Okwonga: And by no means, that was by no means a sure thing, given that Brighton gave them real trouble just a couple of weeks earlier. Yeah. In a decisive game, in a game that City were desperate to win. So I think for the City, this is a real kind of, I wouldn't say it's a revenge mission, but I think it was like reasserting their power because Brighton made them look distinctly human just, you know, a few days ago. Brighton started pretty well in the final. Yeah, yeah. From that concession, the Bunyshaw goal, the defensive laps that led to it and then the free kick, Greenwood free kick, I think. I can't drive the free kick too much.

51:24Musa Okwonga: I think maybe if there's, if we're going to split hairs, I think the defensive laps that let them in for the first. But again, it was by no means a sure thing. I mean, the fourth goal arrived actually very, very late on. And Brighton acquitted themselves well. City just have too many playmakers, too much firepower.

51:42Ryan Hunn: A quick shout out for James Milner, who has announced his retirement from football. Maybe we'll chat a little more about him with Neil on Thursday because it'd be good to get a Liverpool perspective. But what a career.

51:55Musa Okwonga: An incredible career, by all accounts a model professional. We'll probably go on to be an outstanding coach.

52:00Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I can imagine.

52:01Musa Okwonga: Whoever ends up with him is going to be lucky, I think whether he's on a coaching staff or a head coach job, no doubt that whatever he does, he'll do it. Upmost professionalism. That is a guy that hasn't skipped the gym. You know, those guys that like they stop playing football, they carry on like doing their workouts, just like to always be ready. Milner sort of strikes me as that kind of character. And again, like he won't start a podcast because he's probably too busy for that, but he would have all the best. James Milner guaranteed has all the best stories. I bet. All the best stories. Incredible.

52:32Musa Okwonga: Incredible. career. Should we roll? Yeah, let's roll. Let's roll. Quick shout.

52:38Ryan Hunn: Pride month. Oh, wow.

52:39Musa Okwonga: My goodness. Already. Starts today. Right again.

52:42Ryan Hunn: So if you're celebrating Pride this week or this month, have a very happy Pride.

52:46Musa Okwonga: You know, this speed this year, honestly, man, like it feels like I was, I just got out my sort of planner for the year and I was looking at the next three months as a chunk. There's a ton of stuff to get through. And I've kind of been taking this year in sort of chunks, but the fact that we're in June already dude i feel like i've only just stopped wearing my big coat just dude wild goodness me while you're at the parade um i was at a friend's uh birthday party and it was so weird we had like three seasons in a day yeah but yeah but yeah on that happy pride everyone yes absolutely yes yes get out there take care of each other uh you know difficult times obviously pride's always been political and you look at the budapest pride i think was last year and how pivotal that was in terms of just people asserting themselves and being themselves and being true to themselves much easier said than done these days um more so than in previous years it's fair to say so yeah just get out there and take care of each other wherever you are it's really important

53:47Ryan Hunn: more than ever all right everyone we're gonna leave it there for today don't forget if you want to sign up to stadio if you're not a member already go to patreon.com forward slash stadio and pick your membership next episode on Thursday. Yeah, I think that'll do us for today. Until then, check the Stadio Atos place on Spotify. Speaking of which, we're playing out on Emma and Ugne Uma, a track called A Little Bit of Sun. Anything you would like to add, Musa Okwanga? I think probably. Alright everyone, much love. Have a great week. We will be back with you on Thursday. See you then. Bye.

54:25Ryan Hunn: Nourish the self, nourish myself

54:49Ryan Hunn: Nourish the self, nourish myself I really did sell myself

55:03Ryan Hunn: Treating myself

55:11Ryan Hunn: A little bit of sun That I could saw Fuggery for love

55:29Craving for love

55:39Nourish this health

55:45Ryan Hunn: Treated

55:50Ryan Hunn: Treating myself

55:59Ryan Hunn: A little bit of sound That I could soar I loved the sound Treating myself

56:42Ryan Hunn: paper towels, but what they really care about, snacks. And she can get everything they need when they need it. Greg loves wheat crackers, Brenda Crave sour candy, and Max, oh boy, he needs protein bars and milk and applesauce and jerky. It's Walmart, built for your business. Who knew?