World Cup 2026: England thoughts and the round of 32 begins

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1:28Musa Okwonga: Hello and welcome back to the Stadio Podcast. I'm Isokwonga.

1:31Ryan Hunn: I'm Ryan Hun.

1:32Musa Okwonga: Ryan, how are you doing? Doing all right, thanks, man. How are you doing? Very well, indeed. Well, heatwave notwithstanding, but yeah, I'm good.

1:41Ryan Hunn: Oh, yeah, it's really warm in Berlin, isn't it? It is, although I will say that I bought this fan six years ago and it's changed my life.

1:51Musa Okwonga: So, yeah. The second of two fans, I hasten to add. So yeah, that's changed my life and I hope it continues to help me prosper in these trying times.

2:05Ryan Hunn: How are you? Yeah, God bless the fan. I'm in London at the moment for the tournament and we were talking about the heat wave the other day, but it's cooled down now. It's down to like 25. That's fine. London has returned to a reasonable... Factory settings. ...reasonable temperature because, yeah, man, that was a struggle those few days. It was a lot, yeah. Anyway, we hope everyone's staying safe and well wherever you are and enjoying the football. The round of 32 has begun in the World Cup. We're going to look ahead to some of the round of 32 stuff today. We're also going to just wrap up anything of note from the final group games.

2:43Ryan Hunn: We might chat a bit about England, actually. But before we get going, a quick bit of admin. Don't forget, if you want to listen to every single podcast ad-free in full, go to patreon.com forward slash stadio. you can sign up for a podcast membership if you want just the podcast or if you want access to the Stadio Social Club Discord and many more perks you can sign up as a Stadio Social Club member. The Stadio Discord has been great through the tournament so if you want to join in go to patreon.com forward slash stadio and you also will hear episodes like we did one last week with Ayo Akamu-Moleri which was great.

3:14Ryan Hunn: Great fun yeah. So if you want to hear Ayo and Moussa reconstructing Lionel Messi post-match interviews in the style of African uncles then

3:22Musa Okwonga: yes that's the thing that happens one of the podcasts of all time

3:31Ryan Hunn: and you get all those episodes ad free info go to patreon.com forward slash studio and a quick shout for our Southbank Centre live show the tickets are starting to move we are doing our next Southbank Centre live show 23rd of July the Thursday after the World Cup and we're going to be joined by Nish Kumar so the tickets are in the podcast description if you want to go and buy and I reckon that is all the admin. But today, there is only one place to begin.

3:58Musa Okwonga: I don't actually know where this is.

4:00Ryan Hunn: There's only one place to begin, Moosa. I'm not doing it. I'm not guessing. I'm not. Why don't you want to guess? I'm not hurting myself. It's been a while since we've done one of these.

4:08Musa Okwonga: I'm not hurting myself. I'm not doing this to myself.

4:14Ryan Hunn: I'm traumatised, right? The place to begin today, the only place to begin, is to shout out Vermont Green's women's team have clinched their division in their inaugural season they've clinched the USLW North East division with an unbeaten record, 6 wins, 4 draws and that means that all of the playoffs will now take place in Burlington Home advantage Yep, so shouts to head coach Abbey Caccio and all the crew an amazing achievement in their first season North East Division champions, shouts to Vermont Green and meanwhile the men's side are currently unbeaten played 11 games they've won 10, drawn 1 and they're a point clear at the top of the North East Division but also by the way with a plus 42 goal difference the closest goal difference is 30 goals behind.

5:17Musa Okwonga: Can I say what a wholesome place to begin? What a lovely place to begin.

5:23Ryan Hunn: So shout out to Vermont Green and the crew. I'm so scarred. Right, let's talk World Cup. Let's do it. I think we should quickly begin with the first round of 32 game because...

5:32Musa Okwonga: Yes, absolutely, yes. Canada going through.

5:35Ryan Hunn: Yeah. Canada going through against South Africa. The stoppage time goal.

5:40Musa Okwonga: The interesting that's happened in this World Cup is that the base level, we're talking about the floor being much higher than, even if it wasn't at the start of this tournament, and that teams do the fundamentals very, very, very well. And so what you get is you get a collection of teams who are solid defensively and can do everything up until, like they could do two thirds of the game, you know, really, really quite well. And the final third, you'll see either an overhit pass. Actually, do you know what's funny? South Africa began this World Cup and ended it the same way. the game against Mexico is interesting right because South Africa's build-up was really good and the final third came and then they were over hitting passes punching through gaps or not taking their poise and that is a problem they never really solved and I think the reason this outcome ultimately I think was fair and not harsh is because it was just going to come down to execution and they got together Canada they weren't they weren't fantastic I think neither team was but ultimately Canada executed and that was the difference.

6:41Musa Okwonga: South Africa, for all their defensive strength, they never quite fixed. They never quite fixed that problem in the final third. Which is weird considering how good the sundowns were. Considering how decisive they were at club level. It's strange they didn't get the job done last night.

6:57Ryan Hunn: Especially because they had so much of the ball. I don't know the possession is what it is. Like I say, it wasn't the most amazing game. you know I think I think after all that I think penalties would have been a fairly just way to you know or extra time and penalties but then I think if you think Cornelius had that massive chance for Canada was that early late in the first half and that was a better chance than anything South Africa created I just felt like I felt like South Africa were going to get one chance and that might have been it felt like that kind of game where Canada felt like they were creating more it felt like South Africa always had potential and I think that was just because the game felt so broken and just like no one really felt like

7:40Musa Okwonga: they had loads and loads of control I was surprised when the goal went in to be honest because it felt like it was drifting towards penalties um extremely I think disjointed there was some real quality I mean we're talking in the chat about Bokazi this um this tournament and how only 20 years old very accomplished on the ball punching the ball into the feet and it's strange You know, like South Africa, they're a bit like Severance. You know that TV series, right, where you've got like the day job, half of the guy is like at the day job, the other half is like at work. And this feels like a severed team, actually.

8:14Musa Okwonga: Because if you look at its build-up, if you look at everything until a certain point, you're like, oh, they should just be like this throughout the side. And I don't know what the issue is. I don't know because we've seen three games from now at this World Cup, and I still can't figure out how they optimize what they have. I just know that what they have is better than what they've given us. And that's disappointing. It's a shame because there aren't many teams at this World Cup, you can say, that went out that didn't offer as much as you expected them to offer. I did expect more from this team, actually, I've got to say.

8:49Musa Okwonga: Really? Yeah, I did. I did a little bit more, actually, just in terms of the individual quality that's in that squad. It's a shame. But again, I don't think the result was wildly unfair. And I think Ustakio's finish, it is the cliche, but it was a moment of quality that was going to decide this. Which isn't the case. It is not the case for all matches, actually. Like some of the World Cup games, there's more of a momentum ebb and flow to them. But this game, I think, felt like the measures, the countermeasures. I know that Canada created chances, but it wasn't wildly impressive what they did create.

9:25Musa Okwonga: I suppose what I would say is that South Africa's defence they really struggled in that first game but they really redeemed themselves in this one actually really really solid they converged on the ball really well particularly in the first half and Canada looked I think most dangerous there was some unbelievably timed tackles as well the recovery challenges I think it was on David in particular when three of them converged on him in the moment he took quite a good touch when he gets a square pass in defeat and then three defenders all come in perfectly including Satole who would have made a bad challenge in the first game or a couple of bad challenges and he was locked in so yeah credit to them for that they really came strong and even though Canada were playing outside Canada they still had I would say the bulk they almost had their cake and ate it because they had a bit more support than South Africa but they also didn't have that pressure of playing at home which I think is a bit I think that was a bit debilitating actually I wasn't convinced well yeah I mean to be honest

10:21Ryan Hunn: I think if they played like that at home, I think the crowd would have let them have it.

10:28Musa Okwonga: I think they could have got turned over at home, actually. Yeah. I think there's, I don't want, it sounds paradoxical, but I think there was something still slightly liberating about playing away from that expectation.

10:40Ryan Hunn: I mean, Jesse Marsh was so liberated that he ditched the suit and went for jeans in the first knockout, in the first knockout game in Canada's men's history. in a World Cup. You think he was trying to

10:53Musa Okwonga: transmit a bit more calm then? You know, there's always interesting kind of messages.

10:56Ryan Hunn: Dressed down Friday, but it was like dressed down Sunday.

10:59Musa Okwonga: Do you think he was trying to get, but do you think, yeah, but the dress down, you know how like, obviously we talk about outfits. Do you think he's trying to convey a sense of let's not be so highly strung? I'm not sure. I'm not a disministered. I have no idea. Who can say? Yeah, who can say? No idea. I'm sure there was a reason.

11:15Ryan Hunn: It was a choice though, but. It was a choice.

11:18Musa Okwonga: It worked. I guess it worked.

11:19Ryan Hunn: I think he kind of got away with what to put it in. I'd recommend maybe going back to the suit for the round of 16. Yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe. But on a positive note for Canada though, Alphonso Davies coming on and while you can tell he looked a bit rusty, he instantly gave them another dimension down that left-hand side. Yeah, totally. Feels like they've kind of been holding him back for a little bit and we've talked about this a number of times about squads who might be holding players who aren't fully fit back for last stages in the tournament. if they can get through and the fact that they have got through and they've given him some minutes now I would be very surprised if he doesn't start in the round of 16

11:56Musa Okwonga: yeah well I think he has to you know why because he's got Hakimi or Dumfries coming down that flank and you don't want that problem

12:02Ryan Hunn: yeah no

12:03Musa Okwonga: you're going to need speed if you're it's Netherlands and Morocco actually players that he's experienced

12:06Ryan Hunn: playing against

12:07Musa Okwonga: as well I mean that yeah absolutely a great shout and that you know again that flank is going to be decisive whoever lines up on it so yeah it's best that he's back if that's possible.

12:19Ryan Hunn: Yeah. All right, so the first round of 32 game has happened. Was there anything in the final round of group games that we missed that you wanted to shout out while we're here before we have a quick look ahead to the round of 32s?

12:34Musa Okwonga: Yeah, I suppose the obvious, we have to go with the headline of Leo Messi being the first player ever to score in seven successive World Cup games. That's quite wild. That is absurd. There's also another stat from the men's game, which is that I think only three players in the last few decades, I think this is from Miguel Delaney's podcast, he was talking about this, have scored twice in the first two games of a World Cup. And then you had Mbappe, Messi and Haaland all doing it, which is pretty wild. But Messi now has six goals. He's the first person to have six goals by the end of the group stage, which feels surreal.

13:13Musa Okwonga: I almost can't believe that number exists, but that's apparently a thing. Um, yeah, Messi just putting up the numbers and Lo Celso scoring on his World Cup debut, which is amazing because Lo Celso was the player who had the best combination with Messi going to the last tournament. They get his injury, get the hamstring to keep him out. So a huge road back for him. Argentina just looking, I mean, they rotated heavily against Jordan and still came out with the win. Um, and comfortably so as well, as you'd expect, but still like, they're looking dangerous. anything else from the group stages I suppose gotta mention the Algeria 3 Austria 3 right this was wild this game absolutely wild yeah yeah because it wasn't a draw fine for both teams it was and then and then Algeria were like actually no we're gonna leave here with not just something but everything and then Austria were like hang on a minute hang on a minute yeah that wasn't the plan if this happens we're cooked Kalajic scores like right at the very end and that puts Iran out.

14:16Musa Okwonga: Unbelievable all round, just a ridiculous, ridiculous game of football, but also kind of slightly ridiculous scenario in a way. There are criticisms, we'll go into them after the tournament's done actually, because, you know, we're in the flow of things right now, but there are conversations about teams that can afford to do this, to go through and effectively matches where teams are not incentivised to go for it. And I'm not sure I keen on those.

14:41Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I mean, And that is the interesting thing about the head-to-head, bringing in head-to-head records, because a lot of these, like the pathway felt closed to a lot of these, or in a lot of these final games. I'm not sure I like it.

14:59Musa Okwonga: I'm not the wildest fan of it, I've got to say. I think you have a proper think about it.

15:05Ryan Hunn: Because there have also been, there were also, you know, some dead rubbers in previous World Cups. It's not like, but whatever format you have, you have games that are um you know there are restrictions or downsides to any format they have i need to think about and have a look a little more because i found myself getting quite excited about some things but then uh realizing that the head-to-head meant that couldn't happen yeah also on the other side of that though it did mean that some things could happen based on the head-to-head where whereas maybe the goal difference wouldn't have been enough in previous

15:34Musa Okwonga: yeah true true i think the good thing about head-to-head as opposed to goal differences you can't just it's redemption if a score if someone racks up a score against you then it's a reset for the next fixture so I kind of quite like that in a sense but does anything stand up to you from the I mean I've got a couple more but I thought I'd pass you the mic

15:54Ryan Hunn: I was really impressed with DR Congo in terms of the comeback yeah because I thought they would win because I just think they're a better side but to come back as they did that stage in the game and then get the clincher in injury time at the end. This has been the good thing about this World Cup and the expanded tournament, is that it's given teams that maybe might have struggled to make qualification. It's got them there, and it's also got some of them through to the round of 32. They face England next, which is not... To be honest, it was DR Congo or Senegal.

16:36Musa Okwonga: Oh my goodness. England really dodged a bullet there on this game and to segue into England again. Shama Rudolph obviously giving Uzbekistan the lead with a beautiful goal and then Uzbekistan producing a defensive performance the like of which I think they wish they'd produced in the last game. I'm not saying that Portugal shouldn't have beaten them anyway but this was altogether more accomplished and they made Diol Conga really fight for this one. They had to really work for it. I dig this up. I'm surprised they made, I'm surprised they worked this hard for it, actually. And I think that's credit to the quality of the defense.

17:14Musa Okwonga: Just because the last game, they just lost so much intensity. I was a bit disappointed, to be honest. But I would say this, like, not that they are by any means straightforward opposition, because that back four, I think in particular, is going to be quite resilient against England. And I think in some respects, this team, it's not a better team than Ghana, in terms of the actual quality, right? The individual quality. but I think it knits together in a way that is quite concerning for England right it's quite concerning I think because England the Ghana team was maybe caught between two stalls because the attacking quality meant are we going to like counter or just sit really deep and do nothing and I think this this team actually because it's more limited in an attacking sense I think England might have even more trouble with it because they're not going to be tempted necessarily to come out and like take any kind of attacking risks for long periods so this could be quite frustrating for England I think as an opponent I do think at the same time that Senegal yikes because if that team runs hot they can cook they can cook you and we saw it against France like that miss by um who put over that was it Saar Saar's miss in the first half at nil nil when France hadn't really found themselves if Senegal get a lead then I think it gets quite sticky for France quite quickly.

18:32Musa Okwonga: And it could have affected the direction of the tournament, actually. Senegal coming out, even like claiming a narrow win or a draw, maybe more realistically, that changes everything, I think. So yeah, I think Senegal is still the one you don't want to face. And England will be thinking, it's going to be hard work. I think it could be quite similar to the England-Panamar game, actually, in terms of how it maps out. But on England, let's talk about them since we can make a bit of a segue if that's okay on england what are your thoughts on the

19:02Ryan Hunn: panama game in england so far it's kind of how i expected it to be to be honest i'm not hugely bothered i think this side is set up to play against sides that are also gonna we're gonna have a mindset of winning the game more because england were favorites in that group right yeah in terms of being proactive and actually going out to win the game this isn't criticizing any other side in the group by the way this is not what I mean but I mean for example they really struggled against very very good mid and low blocks of Panama and Ghana yeah and also the counter-attacking threat of both I think was actually Panama I thought I was really impressed with how they countered yeah for better finishing they could have caused England way more problems Ghana obviously they knew about that threat and they talked about it Thomas Tuchel talked about it in in terms of the defensive selections Croatia were the side that maybe left a little more space in behind because they were probably a little out of the three sides that England faced in in the group stage they were the most front-footed yeah yeah and England scored four goals I know that one of them was a penalty that had to be retaken and one was a corner but still especially in that second half the second half of the Croatia game I think is the thing that would be the most probably the thing that you would take the most into if you're going to get past the the round of 32 so for around round of 16 onwards I think the first half of the Croatia sorry the second half of the Croatia game is probably the thing that you would take as the biggest positive to apply to that kind of style.

20:32Ryan Hunn: Yes, England's best

20:33Musa Okwonga: passage of football in the tournament. Yeah, exactly.

20:35Ryan Hunn: And I think that you would hope that that is the thing that is more transferable to those games when you will have teams who are actually looking to knock you out and going through. I mean, everyone is now, but you know what I mean, right? Teams that maybe aren't going to be massive underdogs against England. I think we've seen this in every tournament from every side that has expectations of going far in a World Cup. They struggle against certain teams.

21:04Musa Okwonga: Oh, I think that England's passage to this tournament is going to age very well. And the reason I say that, Ryan, is because if you look at all the groups, Panama are the team that conceded the fewest goals in any group. They conceded four goals in three games and they finished bottom. Three defeats, they conceded four goals. Like England's group was low-key, really quite strong. So is that like

21:27Ryan Hunn: they conceded the fewest goals for a side that finished bottom?

21:30Musa Okwonga: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Panama conceded four goals in three games. Wow. And some might say, oh, that's because... No, actually, Croatia defeated Ghana 2-1. And it's no coincidence, again, that Croatia were part of the games that saw the most open football, scored five, conceded five, because Croatia's star was the most open. And I think you're right. I think Croatia are more the type of team you're going to find from the round of 16 onwards and England just have to get there and then try their luck and the game opens up. But I've said this so many times on this podcast and others around this time, low blocks are harder to break down than ever for any winger.

22:06Musa Okwonga: They're hard for Dewey, they're hard for, we saw Quarret Scala struggle with them in Champions League final, obviously. We've seen Gordon struggle, we've seen Rashford, all the rest of it. But look, if you think of what the low block is, you have fullbacks who basically have to be capable of high intensity sprints, recovery tackles. These are areas where we've seen football become unrecognizable in the last 20 years, right? We know for a fact that footballers all over the pitch are better at sprinting for longer periods, are better at recovery. And in a fullback space where you have the smallest amount of room out by the touchline, you can dominate that.

22:43Musa Okwonga: If you're a really good athlete with decent technique and your aim is not necessary to play out from the back, but just to like close down space actually that that is some of the most contested real estate in world football the right back spot so when we're talking about wingers are struggling being effective well yeah they are but also it's just really really hard to do that there which is why England changed tack in this game went through the middle against Panama a bit more then things opened up but I like that they varied things up and I think that also you know for all we talk about Bellingham there's a lot of conversation I won't get too much into it but But I just want to say this, Jude Bellingham contributes throughout the match.

23:21Musa Okwonga: Okay. He doesn't go missing for long periods. He spent most of that game against Croatia making slide tackles and still managed to score a decisive goal or a goal that gave England decisive sway. He was brilliant again against Panama. And I think the thing that's interesting is if Bellingham had not scored and assisted, he still would have been close to the player of the match. Yeah, I agree. And again, I know I talk a lot about fixtures and results aging well, but I think this group outcome is a strong one, actually. I think England and a different group have a bigger margin of victory because of how teams set up against them.

24:02Musa Okwonga: I don't think, look, I'm not saying all the groups are easy. I think they would have struggled to come top in Group I, obviously with France, Norway and Iraq. France, Norway, Iraq, Senegal, tough group there. I think if they'd replaced, say, France in that group, we would have struggled to come top in it because it's just a really good group. But having said all of that, this is not the worst outcome, actually. So, yeah. I think, I suppose what I'm saying is, England are in far better shape than some of the reports would suggest.

24:34Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. You know? Right. Yeah, and they may go out. I don't think that it means that the approach is, you know, put it this way. I would love every team to just be wildly entertaining. But we kind of know that tournament football, especially international tournament football, is rarely like that. We've talked about this before, about it being kind of inherently conservative at points because you have to progress through. and especially when you get to the lockouts, the margins become so small. I think that the thing about England is that they are obviously still, you know, makeup wise, there's not a huge amount of difference from personnel or at least like for want of a better term, like the DNA in there in terms of, you know, physicality, technicality, kind of like very solid, but also some difference makers in there.

25:39Ryan Hunn: And when you have people like Jude Bellingham, Harry Kane and the options around them, like I thought Marcus Rashford was really good. Yeah, yeah.

25:47Musa Okwonga: I think maybe he should have scored the header, I would say. Yeah, yeah, I agree. But beyond that, I thought in terms of in possession, apart from that, I thought really quite good and a great option for them.

25:59Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I agree. But yeah, I think the thing for me is that it's the Thomas Duckel factor. like he's an elite tactician and I think what we saw in the Croatia game like I can't remember an England team coming out after a break and just putting the foot down like that in an international tournament and being capable of it yeah yeah you know because remember was it like we were talking about it I think that Croatia didn't have a shot until it was something like after the second half or after half times Croatia didn't have a shot until something like the 70th 71st minute or something it was wild they could not get out and England it was relentless from England and this isn't one of the all time Croatia teams we know that but still it's not like it's better than people I think it's better than exactly I think because those previous teams have been so good it feels very much like post you know post the golden era kind of thing but there's some really good players coming up in that who are who will be, you know, who will eventually kind of like be up there with some of the, some of the grace of that, you know, that Croatia side of the last decade or the previous decade.

27:16Ryan Hunn: And so - I just think the three teams

27:18Musa Okwonga: in the England's group showed a level of tactical guile and defensive intensity. Not necessarily so much Croatia, but tactical guile, I think in Croatia's case, and defensive intensity that, that was above average in this World Cup. Actually, because if I look at other teams if you look at teams that came bottom in some of the other groups let's say like Tunisia for example they were a lot more lax defensively I think the floor in this group defensively was actually quite high yeah yeah and the quality level but still just my view just asking questions just asking questions yeah I mean I

27:56Ryan Hunn: kind of I'm all right with it but I think that I don't want to sound like contrarian or anything like that but I sometimes find the discourse around England just kind of weird anyway you can't win the tournament in the group stage like you go through top of the group clear room for improvement but also some people who are just very like not fit yet

28:13Musa Okwonga: either can I tell you something else as well you know obviously with the injury to Rhys James the conversation then became about Trent Alexander-Arnold should he have gone and all the rest of it but you know what happens of course you know what happens in like football like this if Trent had gone and you get like the last 16 round of 16 and he gets absolutely torched by a wide forward, which is not impossible if you're playing a more progressive style in the late stages and it wouldn't necessarily be Trent's fault. You know, that becomes the conversation. Why did Tuchel do it? And there was a big conversation about should Bellingham even go to the World Cup because Rodgers is right there and Rodgers is having a great season.

28:53Musa Okwonga: And it's like, I don't think Morgan Rodgers would have thought that was a good idea.

28:58Ryan Hunn: No, I mean, did you see what he said after the game? He was basically just like, oh, we just need to get the ball to Jude as much as possible because he's so good.

29:06Musa Okwonga: Yeah, yeah, like, they see it, there's like, some of these discourses, I mean, luckily, I mean, there's such a range of sources to get your football analysis from and there's some great analysis about what Bellingham and Kane are doing in that, in the England team, in the England midfield, let's be honest, the role Kane's playing at times. But I think that has kind of created a bit of a tidal wave that swept away a lot more of the, the less, I would say, intellectually honest discourse about the roles of different players in this England team. I just think it's a really good team. I think it's really well coached.

29:42Musa Okwonga: I'm concerned that it will fall a little bit short just because of Spain's superior match control and France's superior firepower. I'm still not sure, Ryan, which of those is going to win out. I don't know if it's going to be like a firepower World Cup or a match control World Cup. I'm still not sure. I still tend to Spain.

30:01Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think it also depends on the matchups going to the final. Exactly. Yeah. Matchups. Yeah. Like I've been doing some stuff for TIFO through the tournament and something they've been talking about is who is the arsenal of the tournament and it keeps changing. Right. And I find it quite funny that that's so interesting. That's the discourse. I actually think it's England because. No, I think, I think it, yeah, I think it is. I think it is. It is because they do so many things really, really well. However, if you look at the absolute elite front lines in some of the tournaments, I think that maybe, you know, you look at France, France are, this is very stereotypical, but France feel like the PSG because their front line is, I think their front line is unmatched, right?

30:42Ryan Hunn: I mean, you've got Messi, but in terms of like a three or a four who are up front, we've talked about this before, right? That France, I feel like they're this season's, I think France are this season's Man City.

30:55Musa Okwonga: Really? Do you know why I say that? It's the midfield. It's the midfield. The PSG midfield is just lights out. That's the thing. I know what you mean. Like the front line is definitely PSG level midfield.

31:05Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I think the thing that is going to stop France from winning, and this is one of the reasons why I don't think they will win it, I think is the midfield. And this is why, yeah. I think that's the midfield and the variations that they can throw in there. It's just... Totally.

31:15Musa Okwonga: This is why, this is the only reason I make the Man City comparison is that Man City's midfield in this season, I think actually was, I think it was a weakness compared to the attack. And I think the attack bailed them out. And I think France's attack still bails it out a little bit here, especially when it's clicking. But you can turn France around. You can get a handle on them. I still think, you look at the Portugal midfield, I think it's probably still, Portugal and Spain have the two-mess midfields, I think, at the World Cup in terms of teams that can clamp down on you. I'm fascinated to see what Portugal do and how they do because Cristiano Ronaldo against a promising showing, after promising showing as Uzbekistan, I think reverted to kind of old bad habits quite quickly.

32:01Musa Okwonga: His movement wasn't as good. And I don't mean like he wasn't sprinting as much. I mean like his actual direction wasn't as good in terms of the positions he was taking up. Yeah. So I think, look, I still think it's going to be Spain just because of the control issue. But also, can I say this as well? Because I got mildly cooked by some people on my Argentina comments. I will only say this. seen the comments with it i i think there are some people you can't i think sometimes talking about um argentina there are some people who believe that they can't be praised enough and some people feel they're being i think slightly underestimated this tournament i don't think it's that i think that the question i always have with these things is if the game gets a bit open if argentina take an early lead let's say again matchups they take an early lead against anybody then i think it's very difficult to break them down.

32:52Musa Okwonga: I suppose my thing is with their opponents knowing that I think teams like France, for example, have the firepower to go for them early. I'm not sure if they can actually match up at the moment, if they can meet each other. They've also got quite a nice draw, Argentina, I think. Their half of the draw is not the worst. It's quite favourable.

33:12Ryan Hunn: Looking at the bracket, it's starting to look very interesting. It is, right? Two unbelievable games today, by the way. Brazil-Japan. That is perilous. That is perilous of Brazil. It feels like a proper... I do love the group stages of the World Cup, but there's something when all of a sudden you get, all right, you've got Brazil-Japan in... I was going to say, there's something about Brazil-Japan in the round of 32, but actually we've never had a round of 32 before, so it's not exactly heritage. I tell you what, Brazil-Japan. Brazil-Japan is heritage.

33:50Musa Okwonga: they're gonna hate me for this but the food's gonna absolutely slap oh dude yeah like the just just a moment of oh do what it needs to be they need to be they decide this if it goes to penalties they should decide it on like it should be cuisine and the first course should be seafood it should be like two rounds and there should be a seafood course and then like a rogue option like a vegan or a meat option i don't know maybe they can do a vegan to be honest Brazil, Japan, seafooder than vegetarian, I think would absolutely slap. That should be the decisive. And I'm happy to adjudicate. If anyone wants to fly me to Houston to adjudicate on...

34:33Musa Okwonga: I had to ask, right? There's no way they're letting you read it. It's not the moment. It would get me out. There's no way. On the bracket, we were talking sort of jumping around like Argentina's half of the draw. But it's all quite interesting, actually. These matchups are, I know I put myself out there, I know. I know I've talked about Spain a lot in this tournament, but the big teams have really shown up so far. And they also seem to be solving problems as the tournament goes on. Like, with the exception of Germany, right, who I think have, I think, gone sideways and maybe slightly backwards in my estimation.

35:14Musa Okwonga: All the other big teams that I was expecting to show up have kind of been doing it. yeah is that a fair estimation

35:21Ryan Hunn: yeah I mean I can't do I can't get a Spain Germany final now I don't know how I managed to get it before in my bracket something must have happened in my bracket I don't know how that happened

35:36Musa Okwonga: I'm a bit concerned for Germany I would say that

35:39Ryan Hunn: yeah well the furthest they can go I think until they face Spain is that they will face Spain in the semi-final if they manage to get that far yeah if they get past Paraguay Yeah, if they get past Roiguaia and if France get past Sweden, which I assume they will, then they face each other in the next. So you could be looking at that side of the group, that side of the bracket, you'd expect France-Spain to meet in the semi-final. Right? Yeah, yeah. On the other side of the bracket, it's kind of, I think it's Argentina plus, I don't know, man. Because if England get past the Arcongo and Mexico get past Ecuador, then England face Mexico at the Azteca, which is just horrible.

36:28Musa Okwonga: Horrible.

36:31Ryan Hunn: I mean, it'll look amazing, but. It will. It will. Yeah. and I don't know and I think so I'm really really excited about this Brazil Japan game me too

36:42Musa Okwonga: really excited I can't explain why I think it's because Japan's strengths match up with Brazil's like weaknesses so Brazil will have to like overcompensate and attack they'll have to go big and attack they'll have to really deliver they'll have to use that pressure punch through the gaps Japan I think will enjoy their possession more than Brazil will because they just have more cohesion as a team. This is where Vinicius knows he has to catch fire, whether he's scoring or assisting. And I think this is a way, it's quite simple. I'm not saying it's going to be hero ball, it doesn't have to be that.

37:18Musa Okwonga: But Brazil, I think they know that the only way they're getting through this game, I think, going toe-to-toe with Japan, is their attackers have to go lights out. So in a way, that makes the job easier in a way. like they kind of have to play with attacking freedom to win this and I think that suits I think that suits their profile of attacker actually I think it suits Ancelotti yeah yeah

37:45Ryan Hunn: I'm so excited about this game and it's only in a few hours I'm so hyped for

37:47Musa Okwonga: cannot wait cannot wait

37:49Ryan Hunn: any other games you're super excited about

37:51Musa Okwonga: that is the one that stands out that's the one that stands out to me Netherlands Morocco is oh my god Amsterdam is going to be Amsterdam is going to be so hype. It's ridiculous. Like the Moroccan diaspora there, like it's going to be, they'll be turned up for that. So yeah, Amsterdam is going to be an absolute vibe. I'm so glad that we won't get a Germany-Turkey game

38:18Ryan Hunn: in this World Cup.

38:20Musa Okwonga: Oh dude, absolutely. Absolutely. Although, part of me is a little bit glad because I don't trust our commentators here in Germany to be as respectful as possible. With the disc, with the discourse.

38:32Ryan Hunn: Yeah, yeah. There feels right, do you know what, there feels like every single tournament, a former Germany legend or a Germany legend just absolutely fumbles it. This time, it was Bastian Schreinsteiger's turn this time. But you know what's awkward for him though? Just to be horrific, like say some horrific stuff about African football.

38:51Musa Okwonga: Yeah, but you know what's wild about that? When you have nine out of 10 of the African nations going through the round of 32 and then you're like, oh no, you're like, it's almost like, okay, it's like not not organized okay let's let's let's look at the data that's oh that's off what are the most impressive defensive performances of the tournament so far oh there's what garland did and there's what cabaverde did so i have no statistical data

39:13Ryan Hunn: or factual data to back it up i'm just kind of like trusting my eyes what does that say about my eyes and maybe what does that say about me or how much football i've been watching in the last you know 10 years you know and oh my god like you know did we not just have a succession of

39:28Musa Okwonga: astonishingly effective low blocks at AFCON. Like the defining feature of AFCON was the defensive strength of the African teams. Like they were brutal. You had nations where strikers were turning up from European leagues, expecting things to be much, much easier and going, what the hell is this? Like with complex attacking systems, the like of which they don't necessarily encounter every week, even in some aspects of the Premier League. So I just think, look, I was asked to talk about the Shrine Stigers of stuff. And I was like, I'm not going to do this because I'm not going to adjudicate what was in the man's heart.

40:03Musa Okwonga: I just want people to watch the actual games. I don't think it's asking much. If people are talking about tactical trends among teams, I don't think it's asking much to watch the actual games. I think that's a fair witness, watch, listen to discourse, take in, analyze, just look at what the football is showing us. And the football is showing us that nine out of 10 African teams got through to the next round. And the funny thing was, I wasn't even thinking, this tournament has been one where I haven't even, I haven't even necessarily been looking at teams in terms of the continental input. I haven't been thinking, oh, this is a South American style or whatever style, because what's impressed me across the board, actually, regardless of the origin of these nations, is like just the defensive intensity.

40:49Musa Okwonga: It's forced the elite players, there's teams attacks to find different solutions. And we've seen Argentina finding a range of solutions, playing quite narrow, but they've got the set piece situation worked out pretty well. No one's calling them set piece FC, but let's not get into that.

41:07Musa Okwonga: You're seeing France shuffle the pack and find some joy from Dembele. And France had to do it. They had a lot of work to do. They had to fix what Senegal was throwing at them. So for me, the defining problem, sorry, the defining conversation in this tournament isn't about like which continents are showing up or not it's really about who is solving problems um and that will be the case that will be decisive i think anthony barry was saying how this would be a tournament decided by moments because you know the level is basically so high that technical quality moments of technical quality will be decisive i think that's a fair shout i

41:45Ryan Hunn: I mean, we probably had the World Cup final. Decided like that, yeah. Yeah, in the previous one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, I think the Euros final as well against Spain was very much that.

41:57Musa Okwonga: Definitely. Look, I mean, look at Gertzwein 2014. You know, all of that. You don't get, at this level, it's rare that you get like a masterclass in the final. That's what makes the 2012 final Spain-Italy, it makes it such an outlier. and I think maybe even only that happened because Spain had had such a good look at Italy in the first game, like up close, they were like, okay, we either run this back or go for a game plan where we'll flood the midfield in a way they didn't do necessarily in the first game in that one all draw and the final, of course, it's 4-0. I think that's the only reason we get an outcome like that.

42:32Musa Okwonga: I think in all other situations, to get a major final, a World Cup final, that's an actual procession and actually justified For Argentina, they'll rightly point out that that first 20 minutes is the best football I've seen to start a World Cup final in my lifetime. What Argentina unleashed against France last year, well, last time around, last tournament was off the scale brilliant. That first 20 minutes is, but again, that's unsustainable. You can't do that for 90 minutes in a World Cup final. Anyway, yeah. So those are my takes. Hopefully not as spicy as Schweinsteiger's. Don't come for me.

43:10Musa Okwonga: Yeah, I don't think so.

43:11Ryan Hunn: I don't think so. I think that, yeah. Because yours were factual and well-reasoned. It's the first time for everything. True, actually. Yeah. Also, we've got some other great games in the round of 32. Portugal-Croatia will be a big one. Yeah. And I'm actually quite looking forward to Ivory Coast-Norway. That could be quite vibey, actually. Yeah. because I think because of where it's fitting in the calendar I don't think it's getting as much love maybe as oh people are looking at that as being like I'm kind of like I'll watch this and then I'll you know

43:50Musa Okwonga: and they can both counter quite well they can both counter attack quite well that could be quite a fun game that to be honest yeah

43:58Ryan Hunn: and Belgium Senegal too close to call I mean the final one of the round is Colombia Ghana which just has pure I mean it's arguably the best food as well you can't say this for every you can't you can't go and do a bit and then yeah but you can't all I will say is right

44:15Musa Okwonga: all I'll say is I'm not going to disrespect that's my favourite no that's my favourite I'm not going to disrespect cuisine but there's obviously there's games I haven't said that for in the tournament I'm not going to name those games but there's games I haven't said it for I'm saying it for Columbia Ghana is all I'm saying and Columbia Ghana I I, Colombia are interesting because they haven't really put it together yet. And I can't, they're quite evenly matched. Funny team, I think. Yeah, yeah. Really funny. I just don't know which Colombia is going to turn up. That's the thing. Whereas Ghana, I have a better sense of what I'm getting each match, actually.

44:58Musa Okwonga: Colombia's range is one of the widest in this tournament, actually. It's one of the widest. I feel like they're the team that could catch fire if they get, if they go through this one. They go through Garner, I'm not saying they will because we know what Garner's quality is in attack.

45:13Ryan Hunn: I think they will go through.

45:16Musa Okwonga: I think they will, to be honest.

45:20Musa Okwonga: I'm slightly disappointed what Garner offered in attack, I'm not going to lie. I thought I was going to see slightly more from them. Maybe that's because their central striker isn't at the level of the two wide forwards, I don't know. But I expected slightly more in attack. I do slightly tip Colombia for this because I feel like they're still moving through the gears I thought they had the better of the game against Portugal actually which I think was very positive for them because they matched up well with that midfield they made chances through that midfield quite well and I think with better finishing should have taken that so yeah I'm tipping Colombia for that but again don't listen to me I'm not a betting man thank goodness frankly for everyone involved and for you to be honest yeah yeah yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

46:01Ryan Hunn: All right, man. I reckon we leave it there for the football today. Is there anything else that we need to chat about?

46:09Musa Okwonga: No, I think that's about it. One... Yeah, go on. Something to keep an eye on. I think we're going to say the same thing. Something to keep an eye on. This is... So, news has emerged. I think the New Zealand Herald primarily, but in other... It's coming out to American sports outlets as well. Allegations of a sexual assault against the Cabo Verde captain, Endes. These allegations date from March and have not been addressed by the CEO of Cabo Verde Football Association or other senior officials who have apparently been aware of these allegations for a while. So that is something to watch because as much as Cabo Verde have been a feel-good story in this tournament and as much as this investigation has not been concluded and it's ongoing, like we have to talk about this at some point.

46:55Musa Okwonga: This is all we know so far. The allegations are there. they've been leveled they've not been responded to but this obviously pretty grave stuff and just when you feel the tournament was approaching clear skies the skies are looking they're looking bleaker than they were a few hours ago so yeah there it is there it is

47:17Ryan Hunn: yeah we'll keep an eye on that and we'll address we'll address it if there's when as more develops yeah because actually the first I think it was reported in Brazilian news. Oh, right. The Brazilian news outlet first maybe on Saturday, but I only saw it after we published the episode. Yep, yep. Yeah, man. I just wish... Yeah, yeah. Grim stuff, eh? Grim stuff. Grim stuff. All right, everyone. Well, we... We'll probably leave it there for today. Oh, dude, I forgot to tell you, actually. I went to see Backrooms yesterday.

47:53Musa Okwonga: Oh, my God. Oh, my God. That movie.

47:56Ryan Hunn: I loved it.

48:00Musa Okwonga: I love this director's vision.

48:03Ryan Hunn: Loved it. It was the youngest, came past as the youngest director to have a number one movie on their debut movie.

48:14Musa Okwonga: I'm so happy for him. You know, his interviews are just, he's so funny. He's also really intelligent. He's a smart dude. Oh my God, he's amazing. We're so blessed. We've got a golden age of directors, right? who give not only incredible vision, but their discussion of their process. And they're just so funny. Ryan Coogler went on a run that was incredible recently of interviews that you're like, oh, this person's even smarter than they thought they were. You watch Coogler's movies and then you hear him talk and you're like, oh my God, he's even more of a genius than I thought he was. And Kane Parsons is the same.

48:48Musa Okwonga: And coming through a YouTube community and making it like this is just, it's so feel good. it's not often you get like feel good stuff like that in film uh but yeah he's doing it and it's it's amazing man i'm so glad you liked it too shout out to gen z

49:05Ryan Hunn: the kids all right moose and i are old but we think you're all good man like don't listen to those other old people so old us keep doing your thing you're if we're gonna if we're gonna survive it's gonna unfortunately it's gonna all be on you lot so best of luck and root for you talk about

49:22Musa Okwonga: I was doing some stretches the other day and I woke up the next day I felt like someone was standing on my back

49:31Ryan Hunn: Dude I had to run for a train the other night across Waterloo Bridge to get to Waterloo Station and I was wearing a pair of Sambas and I made the train it was fine but the next day oh my goodness I felt like I'd ran a marathon I was like what the hell is going on what the hell like I need the muscles are like

49:53Musa Okwonga: really the muscles like we're still doing this well I really miss playing football man

49:56Ryan Hunn: because I can't anymore and I need to actually go and I need to go and try and like fix me knee but but yeah like oh man bad vibes listen bad vibes

50:09Musa Okwonga: dad vibes dad vibes yeah

50:11Ryan Hunn: yeah definitely oh dear anyway right let's roll let's do it we hope everyone's staying safe and well wherever you are and don't forget come and join us on Patreon oh two shows this week we're going to do Thursday and we're going to do Saturday just so we can just because of the way the fixtures fall in if we can do Saturday that means we'll we'll catch all of the round of 32 games and the England game is Wednesday night and also the USA game against Bosnia and Herzegovina is on Wednesday slash Thursday morning our time so we'll do those on Thursday and yeah patreon.com forward slash stadio if you want to sign up and get involved and listen to every single episode ad-free in full.

50:56Ryan Hunn: So yeah, we'll be back on Thursday. Until then, don't forget to check the Stadi Archos players on Spotify. Speaking of which, playing out on the Tech N9ne mix of Flavors by DJ Randall. Anything you would like to add, Musak Wonga? Nothing further. All right, everyone. Much love. Have a great week. And we'll be back with you on Thursday. See you then.

51:20For the ground.

52:04Thank you.

52:28Thank you.

52:52Thank you.

53:27We'll see you next time.

53:56Ryan Hunn: Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hello, American podcast listeners. Max Rushton here from the Guardian Football Weekly, which I think you should give a listen. It is good. It comes out three times a week, and the podcast delivers you analysis, news, both the good and the bad from the beautiful game,

54:14Musa Okwonga: and maybe even the occasional laugh.

54:16Ryan Hunn: He's angry about everything.

54:18Musa Okwonga: He doesn't have a great poker face, does he? I would like to play cards with Bruno Fernandes.

54:25Ryan Hunn: You can listen to The Guardian Football Weekly wherever you get your podcasts. Hopefully see you soon.