World Cup 2026 - Spain are world champions!

0:01Musa Okwonga: ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. The anti-Semitism capital of North America is now Montreal? That's what the New York Post reported. Hatred of Jews is now normal in Canada, and Jews are now the number one target of hate crime in the country. That's what the government of Canada says. I am a Canadian Jew, and I want to know, is all of that true? My name is Jesse Brown, and my new podcast is called What Is Happening Here? Find it wherever you get your podcasts.

0:40Ryan Hunn: Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.

1:13Musa Okwonga: hello and welcome back to stadio podcast i'm muso konga i'm ryan hun ryan how are you doing i'm doing

1:18Ryan Hunn: all right thanks man how are you not as well as spain tell you that much a few people are i was on the way back from um the tifo office last night just walking through london and coming across spanish people who were having a great time they kind of like look over to see you vibing or you're not vibing i'd be like congratulations they'd be like vamos and one of them was just like like he kept us like kept asking me spanish he was like you spanish you spanish i was just like no not yet just congratulations the beginning of your naturalization anyway we hope everyone's staying safe and well wherever you are a quick bit of admin so this is our final show on the free feed until the new season so if you listen to us on the free feed this feed will go quiet for a few weeks while Moose and I try and squeeze in a bit of a break if you're a Patreon member we're going to do another show about the World Cup this week and then what we're going to do is we're going to record a few episodes that will go out every Monday to Patreon members for just a few weeks.

2:28Ryan Hunn: I take a break, you take a break. But we wanted to make sure that members still got some stuff through the summer. But yeah, we're going to try and make sure that we don't overlap our breaks so we can, you know, someone can hold down the thought. So yeah, that's the schedule admin. I want to say, first of all, we hope everyone's staying safe and well as well, wherever you are. And also just a massive thank you to everyone who's listened to stuff through the world cup if you're just listening on the free feed or it's the first time you've listened to stadio we really appreciate everyone who's listened and checked our work out in the summer if you want if you're not a member and you want to sign up and you then please go for it patreon.com forward slash stadio get every episode plus loads more perks if you want to sign up to the stadio social club etc etc and also just a quick bit of admin as well anyone in london live show thursday still some tickets left yes yes you meet nish kumar at the south bank center so if you want to go and get those tickets go and get them

3:26Musa Okwonga: if anyone wants a world cup post-mortem the world cup catharsis a chance to breathe let off steam come and hear us do it ask some questions get involved and also hang around afterwards because it's such a great group of people that yeah you want we will be hanging around we will be very

3:42Ryan Hunn: excited yeah all right so should we get into today's show let's do it spain's men have won their second world cup they beat argentina 1-0 after extra time in the new york new jersey stadium in east rutherford new york to use its full title can we use met life now it's the world cup's done first of all what a performance wow this was one of the most it felt like one of the most dominant World Cup finals I'd seen. Spain were

4:12Musa Okwonga: amazing. They were amazing. We're going to get into this more broadly in this podcast. I want to just say up top, they were incredible. The stats actually don't show. The stats don't show how incredible they were.

4:25Ryan Hunn: Yeah, there was a point at halftime where I was chatting to someone, because I was working with the TIFO guys yesterday as well, and I was chatting to someone at halftime just saying, I don't think Spain expected it to be quite so easy for them in the first half. And it wasn't easy. That's not my point. I'm not saying it was easy, but I think it was easier than they thought it was going to be. To the point where at points, it looked like they were kind of playing with their food a bit in the first half. Just a slight lack of intensity. I was like, oh, you know when we always talk about, you always talk about that game that Messi, the Saudi Arabia-Argentina game in the previous World Cup.

5:01Ryan Hunn: Argentina kept playing as if they knew they were going to have more chances. It kind of felt like Spain. were doing that about midway through the first half unless I mean I've not re-watched the game but I felt at the time

5:11Musa Okwonga: I you know it's so funny I see it differently I Spain are the first team at this World Cup and the last of course whose intensity was not affected at all by the hydration breaks exactly the same intensity no I just mean that final the final two three passes there was something about the way they bypassed Argentina with so much ease. They were, by a galaxy, the best team at this tournament. By a galaxy. When I see by a galaxy, I mean the cohesion of this side. I cannot praise them enough. I cannot. The conditions, the pitch, Argentina's intensity, what Argentina were trying to do out of possession, none of it mattered.

5:57Musa Okwonga: The halftime show, none of it mattered. Spain came out as if the halftime break had been a minute long. They came out as if they'd taken their oranges on the pitch because the speed of the chance creation, as soon as the restart happened, they were like, bang, straight at the next again. And for all the talk about you can't mark Messi out of a game, this was airtight, airtight marking. There was one moment in the game where Messi's out by the flank and there were two players either side of him and one watching the out ball. Heavy supervision everywhere. And they somehow did it. They somehow managed to crowd Messi without being pulled across the pitch.

6:33Musa Okwonga: It's one of the most impressive footballing performances I've ever seen. But for a couple of missed chances and that's where I saw, I think, to your point, this lack of precision. There was placing the ball either side of Martinez, slightly sharper finishing. But for that, prior to the game, I thought it was going to be a two-goal margin.

6:52Ryan Hunn: Yeah, they should have been outside.

6:54Musa Okwonga: In normal time, yes. In normal time. They were spectacular. I want to say that as well. Let's put a pin in this because I also want to say to Argentina, the way that Scaloni set them up, I think was the best possible configuration. I think four across the middle, four centre midfielders, very much like a barricade. So you're forcing them to make the difference. But I was watching the game with someone who's not really a football fan and she was blown away by it. She just said, I'm not a football fan, but the way that Spain creates space, the way they create space, like the speed they're moving the ball through gaps, moving around, working around.

7:29Musa Okwonga: It was like rock climbing. Okay, we can't go up there. We can't ascend there. Let's shift it around. Let's pull it back. Bang, bang, bang. And Argentina just could not get out. And this is the thing actually to say about Argentina before I hand it back to you. They have, because Gradient Sports is looking to the stats for the game and they were looking at press-resistant passes. Argentina have some of the most press-resistant passes in world football. Paredes and Enzo Fernandez. and those players both lost their heads. That is how good Spain were. Like you rattle people.

8:00Ryan Hunn: Pass resistant, but just not that resistant. Yeah, totally.

8:05Musa Okwonga: You cannot withstand, you know when you see like these like brutal tropical rainstorms, the ones that come in off the ocean and they are hammering buildings that have been built. These buildings have been built to withstand tropical rainstorms and about five hours in, the roof starts buckling. That was watching Argentina. They just could not. live with that under any yeah I don't think but there's no team in world football that can live with that

8:30Ryan Hunn: It's interesting how I think Spain have done this through the tournament because Sid Lowe wrote a piece for the Guardian which was the headline was at the World Cup full of stars I'm sorry at the World Cup for superstars a team take home the trophy which I think is a really interesting way to frame it because if you look at some of the sides that Spain have come up against individually you may say some of those teams have had better players. For example, we talked about this after the France game. With Spain, the level that they were achieving, if you went through some of the players on paper, and I think, to be honest, a lot of them are like, amazing, amazing, amazing, amazing.

9:06Ryan Hunn: But I think, especially maybe part of that, some of that back four, or even a goalkeeper, compared to other players in the tournament that you would probably have in a side, I'm not entirely sure a lot of people pick the Spain back four, for example, if they were going to do best players in the tournament. And that's such a crucial part of the pitch. But Spain have been elite there. The way that the system functions with everyone elevating their level to a level that, even I think at club level, I think Cucurea has been better in this tournament than he was with Chelsea last season. I think Pedro Porra has been better in this tournament than he was for Spurs last season.

9:49Ryan Hunn: I think Pau Kabasi has been Pau Kabasi. And I was really glad to see him get... Did he get the Young Player of the Tournament award again? He did. I'm really glad that he did that. Because I think that they could have lent into the star aspect of it and given it to Laminia Mar, which would have been not correct, even though I think he's struggled a little bit in the tournament. I think that's just because of his fitness issues, not an ability thing. But Pau Kabarti was so good, and we talked about this after the France game, to see a centre-back, 19 years old, just lock down a position in a World Cup winning squad.

10:32Ryan Hunn: that's quite different I think to as amazing as it was but seeing Mbappe in the World Cup final in 2018 players like Laminya Mal coming in even Mario Götz scoring the winner for Germany this is a very very different level of responsibility because you can afford you can afford to you can afford to basically act out a little bit and still be taken home safely when you're playing further up the pitch but when you're when you're that young and you're playing at the back you've got to get everyone home safely and it's a different level of responsibility it's astonishing but there was also just one pass he played in the channel for Dani Olmo oh god for that chance where at first when I was re-watching it again and I actually remember thinking this in real time I thought Pedri was already on the pitch

11:18Musa Okwonga: but I don't think Pedri was line breaking passes like this is the thing is Pao we're going to call him Paudini from now on Paudini Paudini is he going to make being a centre-back as cool as, let's say, Busquets made being a defensive midfielder. Like, you know, there was a thing where there was a point where, oh, like people suddenly started enjoying being people that played out from the back and controlling tempo. The way that this guy has been passing, like ever since, I mean, I've not seen a defensive talent like this since Vincent Kompany came through for Anderlecht at 17. The way, the control, like the level of, I was watching Vincent Kompany like Anderlecht and was spectacular champions again I was like who the hell is that but this is even more so because as amazing as company was and is the thing that makes Kabasi so spectacular is that long passing right this guy's passing like an elite as an elite midfielder he completed 121 of 126 passes right and like that's wild but these are not normal the tempo the speed he is ripping the ball through gaps and now like Mount that Paudini, he's so good.

12:28Musa Okwonga: Pauco Barci is so good that there's something, you now have to make a decision of like, do we press this guy? Because he's going to hurt us from 40 yards away. Like he's giving them a really complicated problem, Argentina, because then it's no coincidence that someone like Julian Alvarez goes off completely frustrated. Because of course, Alvarez has to do more running because, you know, Messi can't run as much. That's fine. But Julian Alvarez went off just like, well, what am I supposed to do with this? Laporte is there, who's a brilliant footballer, like, you know, Laporte just looks in fantastic nick, is the real kind of like older cop, younger cop, like, you know, mentor, like, you know, and the young hand.

13:07Musa Okwonga: But Kabasi's like, his maturity at the back, his passing range means that Spain are like a threat from anywhere. And don't forget that Pedro Porro, and we praise Cucurreo who gets forward so well and defends so well. Pedro Porro, one of the best playmakers at the tournament as well, who scored the second against France. So now, you look at the Spain team and they're like, they haven't actually peaked. They might peak in a couple of years. They feel a bit like when France went in 1998, but then actually the real peak was Euro 2000, when everyone was fully fit and locked in and a bit more rested.

13:40Musa Okwonga: And I'm not saying that the Spain team was not incredible because they were, but as wild as it's to say that, there's even room for slight improvement in this Spain team. But Dele Fuente as well. Can I just say this? Every adjustment that he made... Masterful. dude how many there was talk before about are you are england can't stop off certain players this guy just takes off rodriguez nil nil the guy takes off um fabian ruiz one of the best players in the tournament on an hour takes off ayah thought about on an hour like so the scaloni is also going scaloni is one of the few players in the stadium one of the few people in the stadium not surprised by delafuente's proactive nature but if scaloni was an ordinary human he'd be like how can you be making these changes at this point changing the pack and both of them like this the two best coaches in the tournament in terms of just shuffling the pack bravery the bravery to take off Chudon Alvarez knowing full well that you can't have him for penalties

14:38Ryan Hunn: I don't think they're expected to get to penalties no I don't think

14:41Musa Okwonga: I don't think he did I don't think he did but he was really just like you just have to bet the house at a certain point

14:47Ryan Hunn: I think the pattern of the subs was really interesting because it was wasn't it um I really liked how apart from those because De La Fuente makes those two changes on the hour but by that point Argentina would already make three and then De La Fuente just waits for Scaloni to make those two subs on 70 and he's basically completed his five for the 90 and then he just makes those two more adjustments of Marino and Williams five minutes later Brilliant which are decisive Just the patience the patience of it well Williams had a couple of chances Marino had a chance in extra time should have scored in the first half of extra time yes and Williams was integral to everything for the goal like he he assisted for the Torres goal in extra time which you rightly commented in the Stadio Social Club Discord that it was the angry goal of the year which I think I think it would take some beating

15:42Musa Okwonga: there's a part of Ferran Torres who's been waiting to score that goal ever since he entered professional football like what I mean by that is the doubt over him over his finishing it's been there ever since he returned ever since he got to Barcelona there's been questions oh like is he a consistent finisher and like the numbers haven't been the greatest for Ferran Torres we'll get to him more broadly in a second but what I love about this victory for Spain and we're kind of jumping around but I want to just sort of cap this and then we'll return to the rest of the game was that it was a progressive victory in that Spain were chipping away in shifts at Argentina like when they when they had that by the time they entered extra time I was like this is something close to Spain's best attacking 11 not completely because Rod was off the pitch but when they had Nico Williams there running with freshness we always said like they had to get him a little bit more fresh for him to affect games as brilliant as Bayern was Bayern actually creatively was really quite good in this tournament but there's something Nico Williams gives you and you saw that both when he messed up a chance and when he created one his unorthodox style of play his ability to see angles that no one else sees there's almost no one else on the pitch that can create that assist for Ferran Torres the vision the technique the athleticism to be falling back and head across and angle to angle an assist like that so good do you know what that was that assist I'm going to throw this hot take in there that assist was the direct descendant of the Fabregas pass for Iniesta you know when that gap appears in 2010 and Fabregas just sees it and just does that little bounce pass to look up and just see the whole pitch and be like, I've got to not only get this back to Ferran Torres, but give him time and the cushion on it.

17:30Musa Okwonga: Like there are so many people that have headed that back and like put it at his waist, but he just, he just, it's like a,

17:36Ryan Hunn: it reminds me of a touch pass. It's like a lob.

17:38Musa Okwonga: Yeah. Yeah.

17:38Ryan Hunn: It's like someone's catching it in midair and has released it before they've hit the ground and everyone's still moving. Brilliant point. When the ball comes across.

17:46Musa Okwonga: Yeah. It's amazing, isn't it? It's incredible. It's genuinely, it needs its own mini podcast that just the quality of the assist and to do that the timing everything and it was again rather like the 2010 we're going to keep referring back to that victory i think because there's some there are some similarities and some differences but there's there's so much overlap just as in 2010 it was a goal absolutely worthy of

18:13Ryan Hunn: of a final well i think they could have they could have been ahead earlier to be fair because yes I think they I think Argentina doesn't matter now but I think Spain got Spain got unlucky with the goal that was disallowed the Nico Williams one did he drive it in yeah because it was like yeah Otamendi gets it's tricky it's one of those do you know what though hell of a gamble from Otamendi to go down it was wasn't it it was it was a big gamble and at first because I wasn't watching it with sound erm it was I was asking in the Stadio Social Club Discord if the whistle had gone before the ball had crossed the line, but I watched it back this morning.

18:53Ryan Hunn: It actually hadn't. So I feel a bit... I think it was... I think Argentina got away with one there.

19:04Musa Okwonga: Well, actually, I suppose they didn't get away with that much.

19:08Ryan Hunn: They didn't get away with much, no.

19:09Musa Okwonga: They did 11 saves by Emi Martinez, which was one save more than Unai Simona made the entire tournament.

19:18Ryan Hunn: well Spain was it Spain I think their combined XG for the total conceded was 2.4 and they conceded one goal on the tournament which was that the Catollero goal

19:29Musa Okwonga: this was the problem that Argentina had nobody actually knew what a goal no one knew what a goal no one knew what a goal this is it this is the thing

19:36Ryan Hunn: we've talked about this before about when you build that aura gradually through a tournament when you start when you don't get looks like Argentina didn't have a single shot not a shot on target a single shot until the 117th minute they broke a record it's the new record for the longest that a team has gone in the Men's World Cup final without a shot and to be honest I think it's going to take some beating because that's nearly two hours sorry just to check Moosa did you know that 117 minutes is nearly two hours I could feel myself saying that do you know what Moosa that's nearly two hours and then they had a second shot their second shot of the game was in the 122nd minute genuinely you know you know i can't praise

20:22Musa Okwonga: this performance enough you look at the way everyone contributed defensively laminia mal was disciplined he didn't force the game i really liked this actually like he didn't have his in quotes big moment but he didn't force which was great by a tharbell dropping in very very well Rodri just I mean what can you even say it's the way that he he baits you into like rushing onto him you're like oh like he's not that big he's not that fast come on like how hard can it be and then just every single time just bang two people drawing in the balls around the corner and they're just advancing up the field and there was just nothing like Argentina trying on someone said like how could this Argentina team beat England and I'm like I don't think this is giving credit to what Spain unleashed actually because this stuff it works on teams that play you at close quarters it works on teams that can't control the ball and rotate it like Spain can it's a control thing

21:19Ryan Hunn: yeah it's control no one could control the game no one could control games in the tournament as good as Spain could and they end up winning the game they end up winning the tournament because I think if you look what happened actually at the final five minutes of extra time Argentina have done that in pretty much every game that they've played in the knockout. They went to extra time in every single knockout game, by the way, apart from the England game. Yes, yes. Which followed a similar pattern though, right? Where they have this level of intensity that they can crank it up to at a certain point of the game.

21:55Ryan Hunn: And when you have someone like Lionel Messi, who even at 39 years old, has been one of the best players in the tournament. Yes. That's such a unique thing to happen. and it almost got Spain.

22:07Musa Okwonga: It almost did because you can tell that Messi has been rationing his sprints. You can see when you know that

22:13Ryan Hunn: when you know that it reminds me a little bit of that Nike advert you know when Haaland it's just like no not yet not yet not yet yeah totally totally I know it's different and you know I think Argentina probably had to do that by necessity especially at that point when they're down to 10 which we'll talk about in a sec but I think that's the thing about the England game like not wanting to go back on that because I think literally they finished third we saw that game on well I didn't actually watch the game live but the game on Saturday seemed like a fitting end to the tournament for everyone and just it was really nice seeing the French and England players afterwards just you know kind of in a huddle together I think some of the lads who were praying kind of did it together which a sharp contrast at the end of this game last night there wasn't much peace and meditation at the close

22:59Musa Okwonga: there was an amazing video of Luminium on his knees praying and in the background and ask them to the players just go, they need to slow that down

23:07Ryan Hunn: and play classical music score over the top of it. This is the thing about Spain World Tournament, right? Just when they can lock down a game defensively and they can lock down a game with the ball, that's just, the longer the time goes on, it's like the kind of boa constrictor analogy. For example, do you remember we used to talk about those Man City teams? I remember like the Leipzig Champions League game where we're just like, you're watching something happen for an hour and a half and they know that it's happening i.e. RB Leipzig or whoever it was I think there was a Gladbach season as well when Manchester City did it and we talked about it was just like the boa constrictor just being like relentless but it wasn't like exciting it was just it just felt cruel and relentless at the end do you know what I mean?

23:57Ryan Hunn: and then it almost just like almost like impenetrable from a Manchester City point of view and I know that Spain are literally kind of defensively impenetrable well apart from one goal but it feels like maybe because maybe because it's international football maybe because I think not a lot of the players on there are quote unquote superstars by the modern superstar standard I think the general consensus kind of feels like you can still get at Spain when you actually can't which I think is such a lovely little sweet spot for a team to be in because they're almost they weren't underdogs for the tournament but through the tournament more people were talking about another team winning it and they were just there being like alright

24:38Musa Okwonga: I mean not to sound smug but I was always very very frightened by a team that could afford to leave players like that on the bench

24:47Ryan Hunn: Dude same we talked about their depth early on right and we read out the depth and we were like It was absolutely

24:53Musa Okwonga: terrifying like what they could deal with. Gavi played five minutes at the World Cup no way he played five minutes at the World Cup against Austria Grimaldo did not play a single minute

25:11Ryan Hunn: Zubimendi came on in the final that was his first appearance in the tournament

25:14Musa Okwonga: you see what I mean this is the thing like with a system where Spain's floor was almost everybody else's ceiling and the Cabo Verde result I think some people were like what the hell is this but that game Spain were on their necks and Vosinha if it wasn't for Vosinha and some slightly errant finishing including Ferran Torres hitting the bar from six yards away or whatever it was which weirdly enough that result was a blessing for Spain because people took their eyes off them I think to an extent they're like oh my god Spain Cabo Verde god like Spain oh oh oh what's the fuss about but again the parallel with Spain Switzerland in 2010 I know we could come back to that parallel but it's there like Spain locked in that game actually they were very impressive for long periods Cabo Verde just were incredibly resilient defensively but Spain had it so much of their own way in that first game and by the time they beat Austria they looked absolutely just in a different level a different class like Austria a good team and Spain just bounced them out like they were nothing bugs on a windshield and the France game as well like again that could have been 3-0 like if Luminium wasn't a fraction offside and then that would have been the signature result.

26:30Musa Okwonga: Yes, 2-0 is still quite a close result but I think 3-0 as such a sort of like statement would have been like, oh my God, oh my God, Spain, Spain, Spain. And everyone was like, oh my God, like France-England meant to be the final. No, it wasn't. It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't. Because Argentina were the world champions and as good as England were, as good as they were, unfortunately for them, their weaknesses matched up extremely unfavourably with Argentina's strengths. Extremely unfavourably. So let's just talk about Argentina briefly because the way they lined up...

27:01Ryan Hunn: Just before we move on to Argentina, can I just say, this is the first time that the men's and women's World Cup holders have been from the same country.

27:07Musa Okwonga: Do you know what's so fascinating about that? You can see that they were educated at the same place. It was like when you're watching debate teams and they all have a certain style, a rhetorical flair. Or when you see people who come from creative writing class, like graduates, and they've all gone and written brilliant novels. you can see the lineage. Like there's a, such a Spanish style of playing, isn't there? Like you look at the Spain women winning the world cup and we talk about like Lucy bronze going infield that time. And then like the bear trap, the midfield bear trap and Spain just will pass you to pieces.

27:45Musa Okwonga: There's been lots of conversations about like, you know, national team DNA and all of that. But I think there is something about philosophy and the thing I was saying, watching with a friend yesterday I said the thing about the Spain team it was still nil-nil and I said look Argentina might win this but this Spain team are in dispute to be the best team on the planet and also if you're teaching football to a group of young people you know godchildren whatever like your own kids if you this is how you teach them to play football like this is this is such a sustainable way to play football to keep possession and not just to keep possession but to enjoy it with your friends.

28:23Musa Okwonga: This is like, this is a masterclass. And I felt like, the thing I loved about this game was, we've seen a lot of individualism in this World Cup and that's been thrilling, don't get me wrong. But a lot of that stuff you can't really replicate. This, you can replicate this. There was one pass that one of them played across the box to Kukurea. And I said, that pass is so dangerous. To play a square pass across the A.T. On Yacht box and to tempt two forwards in that you're baiting them to come in and both of them are watching them all go across them and they can't help but go after it, right? They're like...

29:00Ryan Hunn: But it's chill to them, right? Everyone else goes, but it's chill to them. It's like watching...

29:04Musa Okwonga: Cats going after a laser pointer. You have to go for it, but for them it's chill. And you've taken two people out of it and then you're all of a sudden 10 against 8. Sorry, carry on.

29:13Ryan Hunn: I was going to say, it's like watching those... It's like watching window cleaners doing skyscrapers in their little thing. Everyone's like... And they're just like...

29:21Musa Okwonga: No, no, we can handle the heights. No vertigo here. In the wind. In the wind. In the wind. Talking of in the wind. There was one piece of control that Laminia Marl pulled off on the flank. Do you remember the high ball when he brings it down over his shoulder? And I'm like, almost as if to remind us of the levels.

29:39Ryan Hunn: I was actually really impressed with Laminia Marl at this World Cup. And the reason for that was because he clearly didn't have his A game. He was clearly recovering still from that injury. And he could have really forced it. and I think early on in the tournament there were one or two moments where he did and he learnt really quickly and I assume that Dele Fuente has probably had a word with him as well about that but that shows quite an impressive level of maturity at that age where you are the hype man in terms of everyone is looking at you as the next one to take over as the kind of Mbappe is later in his career still but he's hitting his peak and yeah I think the ability just to not force it and actually be like look you know what i i don't i can't do this so i'm not going to try and do the highlight reel i think he did that early on in the tournament and he adapted really well to i'm going to give him a compliment here which is one of the highest i can pay i talk a

30:36Musa Okwonga: lot about when mesut ozil played basically as a left winger in the 2014 germany world cup run and just pulled out wide and his job was just like retain possession and have the ball stick high up the pitch and then Germany could build an advance behind him. And I think this was a similar kind of role or like get the ball high up the flank. Yes, make your incursions. If you lose it, don't lose it in dangerous areas. You know, it wasn't a situation where like if he lost the ball, he would lose the ball in their half on the flank. He wouldn't cut infield and then concede it. And then all of a sudden you're faced with this brutal counter where all of a sudden Fabian Ruiz and Rodrius staring down the barrel.

31:15He never allowed Spain's physical, but slightly

31:21Musa Okwonga: less mobile in terms of speed. Neither Fabron Ruiz or Rodrius are fast. He never allowed a situation where they were countering, which other players with that level of skill, that skill profile would actually do. He never did that. He was very, very disciplined, tidy in where he took his risks. And Dele Fuente, to credit him as well, very clearly, and he just cannot praise that coach enough so many times where he was just like we have the best team in the tournament we have the best players and you could tell that his instruction was so good like pedri starts the world cup as a starter goes in the subs bench a couple of games comes in on the hour mark no ego creates the most chances in the game and you saw the difference arrested pedri a rotated pedri pedri not with something to prove but pedri with a bit of urgency some of the passing combinations through the middle with Rodri were just on another level.

32:12Musa Okwonga: Like no one else in the tournament was putting that together. The way that he would accelerate the ball through the middle of the pitch, we talk about, um, Lissandra Martinez going off really unlucky, but we talked about the importance of attacking the centre-backs directly. And Spain were the first team I saw really going at them in that area. Like, like from a static position. I don't mean Egypt, of course, incredible on the counter, but Spain were the first team that went to Argentina through the middle as a subtle defence and played through them time and again. Could not cope with it. And, you know, Argentina, I suppose, if you look at them in the same way that Spain were a tribute to the 2010 team, Argentina, unfortunately, it's kind of a carbon copy of 1990.

32:55Musa Okwonga: Got an ageing number 10, defending the World Cup, you lose one nil to a late goal and you get two red cards. I mean, it was like a carbon copy. And I think this is the interesting thing because if you saw those two red cards, right, for Argentina, they both came out of losing gamesmanship. They came from losing a game that those specific players had created. Like, I don't think, don't get me wrong, I don't think Scaloni, he doesn't say to his players, go out there and initiate this, this, this. He doesn't do that, right? That's not what, he's not interested in that. This is, I think, on those individuals, Paredes, who obviously, and Enzo Fernandes, who've both taken Argentina to a World Cup, I think they have to look at at what point does the mask eat the face?

33:43Musa Okwonga: Because there are some things I was doing very well on this pitch, but I allowed the kind of supervillain persona to overtake the things that I was doing on the pitch that were very, very good. Like Enzo Fernandes, one of the best passes under pressure. Paredes alongside him. And they wasted, I'm not saying that Argentina could have won this game, but if you look at that late, late miss, from Simeone, which he should have scored, really. You just look back and think, with a bit more discipline, could have Argentina forced some penalties? Could they? You know, you have to ask. Because they play that, look how long they played with 10 men, actually.

34:24Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I mean, it was ages, right?

34:25Musa Okwonga: It was an eternity.

34:27Ryan Hunn: Yeah, and that's the thing about the red card that was so troubling when it happened. To be honest, it's such a, it's a really bad red card, I think. Because to be honest, I think he was lucky technically to get away with maybe not being sent off earlier. Paredes, I thought, was really lucky not to be sent off earlier as well. And I think that it was just completely necessary. It wasn't in a high-risk area of the pitch. It wasn't a high threat. And it made the... To be honest, if I was an Argentina player, seeing another player on a yellow make that... I would have been really, really frustrated with Enzo.

35:01Ryan Hunn: because you've just made a very, very difficult situation even harder. Yeah, yeah. And it wasn't cool. It wasn't clever. It wasn't heroic or anything. It was just a bit crap. To use the words of Wayne Rooney when talking about the halftime show, he said, I love all those artists, but that was crap.

35:21Musa Okwonga: This was iconic, iconic, iconic.

35:25Ryan Hunn: Listen, man, I'm not talking about that today. We'll maybe talk about it on the epilogue Big Picture Show but look, not into it at all. Completely unnecessary but I don't like how they brought the Muppets in because they knew they might have got us with that.

35:41Musa Okwonga: That's true.

35:43Ryan Hunn: Disappointed with the Muppets but I'll let it slide. But yeah, not for me. Just completely pointless. I think I said in the chat, do you need it? Will anyone miss it? And does it make the spectacle better? If the answer is no to all the three of those questions, you don't need it.

35:57Musa Okwonga: Exactly.

35:58Ryan Hunn: And we will talk about this on the next show because I do want to get into this a little bit, but it's just, there are so many things about this tournament that, we said it, it's quite cheesy, right? But the whole football finds a way thing.

36:11Musa Okwonga: Can I say, can I say this? I love that you said this because I made a note last night, just in case I forgot it this morning, about this, about the Spain victory. Spain winning the World Cup in this fashion, in this final, it felt like it restored this to what it should have been all along, which is merely an excellent football tournament. it was almost like Spain rebalanced or restored some I don't know balance to the force every but the way that they won this game they took out any possibility of this couldn't be rigged this couldn't there was no sense in which people watched this and thought oh this is unfair this could be affected they they won it by such I know it was only a goal to nil I know but they won it by such a clear margin in terms of it was like watching a boxing match where the opponent's not knocked out, but it's a unanimous verdict and the boxer wins every single round, like the technical excellence.

37:04Musa Okwonga: And the opponent isn't like, you know, bruised. It's not nasty. It's just like, yeah, I just, that person was just too quick for me. They were just too quick in all areas. And it was almost like Spain administered a footballing lesson to a very, very good Argentina team. I mean, this Argentina team is, a lot of people draw the comparison with Atleti, which is quite a fair comparison, I think, not only because it's got some Atleti players, but also because the midfield four of four centre midfielders, the defence of strength, the way they fought for every possession and all of that. Like Argentina came into this game with an exceptionally high floor.

37:41Musa Okwonga: Having defeated that England team and looking fresh, looking ready for everything. And Spain came in and were like, they somehow managed, it was like a noise reduction.

37:52Ryan Hunn: Yeah, that's exactly what it was.

37:53Musa Okwonga: It was like watching someone, like watching a pianist in the middle of a crowded airport terminal with their headphones on, just like, and everyone was just rushing around, just like Spain was in there.

38:03Ryan Hunn: Like watching Luminium Island at the end where it was all kicking off. Oh.

38:09Musa Okwonga: Yes. That was a metaphor for how Spain moved through this tournament. All the noise. Calm in the chaos, man. Yeah. Calm in the chaos. And something fitting about that, maybe there's a lesson in that. Like... Just like focus on your plan and mind your business. And that's how you come through this all. They didn't get caught up in any of it. And it wasn't like they were just like saying nothing politically. I mean, Borja Iglesias came out and said what he had to say in the tournament, you know, straight up with all of that. Like people just, people said their piece. Also wild what got allowed and what didn't get allowed politically.

38:46Musa Okwonga: Do you know what's so interesting about this? And I was, it's almost like they're making it up. Can I be, can I be honest with you as well? Like, But when Spain won, what Trump was trying to do with all of that, he just couldn't get into it. He doesn't have any purchase on Spain. The politics of the Spain prime minister are completely opposite to his. He couldn't co-opt this in any way. You could see him even on the stage at the end, we'll very briefly talk about that, trying to hang around as Spain celebrated. But there was no way in for him. There's no way in for him spiritually. He had no in.

39:19Musa Okwonga: This was just about Spain. it was almost like he had no concept of it. It was fascinating on a very, we'll talk about this elsewhere, but in terms of Spain's achievement, they're European champions, they're world champions, they're favourites for the Euros already because they have to be after a performance like that. With Messi obviously ageing out, I think Argentina now return to the chasing pack of teams in the world just because, you know, by virtue of Messi's age, Argentina have to go away and reconfigure and rebuild and work out what their next team looks like, but they're Argentina, they'll find a way.

40:02Musa Okwonga: So Spain kind of stand alone now in the men's game.

40:05Ryan Hunn: I think France are there and I think that, you know, I think that France will... They'll come back for the Euros. Yeah, for sure. I think just very, very interested to see what Argentina looked like post-Messi. what that does for maybe like the team setup, maybe what that does for leadership, who they look to now. Because I think that this team has been so used to pulling in the same direction for an individual who is going to lead them to glory. It's going to be just really interesting to see what happens next, who the main people are of that 11, who they kind of build the team around, what it does for them psychologically as well.

40:44Ryan Hunn: It's going to be interesting.

40:45Musa Okwonga: Yeah, like you say, France to watch they might appoint Zidane there's talk of that but we'll have more analysis of that later but for the time being I mean just Spain Fabian Ruiz played 50 hasn't lost once in a Spain show

41:01Ryan Hunn: that's wild man that is so wild hey last team to beat Spain Scotland Scotland man in a competitive fixture Scotland in a competitive fixture yeah incredible incredible they've only lost that friendly to Colombia in the last however long it was Was it three years? Wild.

41:18Musa Okwonga: It's sometimes in football, the obvious answers or the more clear answers are the ones you want to avoid. Like, oh, like a Spain really the favourites. It was easy to say, to look elsewhere, to look apart from them. But the way they won the Euros, they won the Euros and they hadn't peaked yet. That was the thing that was frightening about it. And the way the goal they scored, this is the thing, the quality of their winning goals. Iotharbo's winner at the Euros, the way they constructed that was just brutal. They just peeled them apart. The way they constructed this goal, this is the thing. Spain win tournaments in ways, they generate football, they generate chances that other teams just can't.

41:54Musa Okwonga: It never seems hurried with them. There was some commentary. It was interesting because I was watching the English comms and the German comms at different points because I was trying to get a different contrast. The Spanish comms were really, the German comms were really interesting, right? They're a lot more, they analysed the game as it is, as they think and not as they want it to be. And there was a thing I think with the UK comms, maybe they were trying to like generate more interest because they knew a lot of people are tuned out after the England game or whatever. I don't know. But they were saying stuff like, Ooh, as the game goes on, you feel that Argentina are going to nick one.

42:22Musa Okwonga: I was like, no, I don't. Spain are the one, they're the one team in world football where the game goes to a hundred minutes. And I'm like, they're going to make more high quality chances. They're not going to slash it. The one time I saw them slash at the ball, I think Rodri hit one sky one over the bar when he slightly rushed it and Naminia Molle rushed one. and I said, those are the only times in the game when Spain rushed to finish. Everything else was kind of just like process, process, system, regroup, process. Just the process, man.

42:52Ryan Hunn: Yeah, yeah. But I think it was thoroughly deserved, man. And the only side stopping Spain's men and women from holding the Euros and the World Cup at the same time? Serena Vigman's England, man. Yeah, exactly, England. You'll never sing that. You'll never sing that.

43:09Musa Okwonga: I have a jacket. I have a jacket which I got on the TIF offices. I've got a jacket at the TIF offices. It's a beautiful jacket, but it has it's coming home written on the back. And I'm like, uh... Maybe. I might just walk very fast and wear that nose. Use the logo, hopefully.

43:24Ryan Hunn: You should just scribble it out so it says, I'm coming home. I'm coming home. Then no one could ever come at you for it.

43:30Musa Okwonga: Tell you what, I might wear it at the South Bank, actually.

43:32Ryan Hunn: Do it.

43:33Musa Okwonga: Yeah. Can I just say, on Spain, I mean, we can't praise them enough. If there's any lessons from this tournament, more broadly for other teams, give your squad players that you're planning to use later, give them reps in that third group game. Or at some point... Gamble a bit more. Gamble a bit more. Like, we talk a lot about like Cobby and Mainu not being rotated, not to make it about England, but one thing that Dele Fuente did really well was that he knew that when he called on his players, they'd be ready. Right? Pedri was in and out.

44:01Ryan Hunn: He went from starting Pedri to bringing him on for just to lock stuff down and control. And that was amazing. He knew that Gavi would give him energy if he needed him.

44:08Musa Okwonga: he used Pedri as a closer we even

44:16Musa Okwonga: do you understand do you understand terrifying Pedri came on the pitch and I was like do people do people understand what was happening here

44:28Ryan Hunn: it just doesn't seem fair does it

44:30Musa Okwonga: do you know what I love about Pedri actually can I say this we're going to praise him so many more times in this podcast in the years to come we will wrap up in a minute we will wrap up in a minute It feels fitting to wrap up with Pedri because he feels like the spirit of this team in such a way, even when he doesn't play or start, his presence is so important. He feels like to me, and I know I make a lot of analogies with musicians and with actors and all the rest of it, but you know those actors who are just going and picking their roles and making the career they want to. like pedri's body of work if you look at the trophies he's won he's won a lot of trophies right but that doesn't tell the story of what his his impact on football it's been he kind of just does his own thing he's not too concerned with numbers or whatever he just wants to be part of

45:17Ryan Hunn: something like i've talked a lot about john pedri the ultimate hey guys what you up to football yes

45:24Musa Okwonga: i know i know i've mentioned this guy a lot i've mentioned this analogy before but john kazali the guy that was in five movies and i think three of them were nominated or won one best film at the oscars he's that he's john kazali he's just in the mix he's freddo he's like if he's in there

45:41Ryan Hunn: it's better pedro makes everything better i want to hear his entire filmography yeah go for it before he sadly passed away the american way mypd the godfather the conversation the godfather part to Dog Day Afternoon, The Deer Hunter.

45:57Musa Okwonga: Thank you. That's Pedri's career. It's all bangers. That's, I love that. You see, you look at Pedri's career and what he's won and you look at the teams he's been part of, the squads he's been part of, and it's just quality all the way down. I think he's won the Olympics yet? He won the Olympics, didn't he? Yeah, yeah, all of that. Won the Olympics, won the World Cup, won the Euros. There'll be a Champions League in there at some point, I imagine. even if there isn't even if there isn't it doesn't matter it's beyond numbers

46:30Ryan Hunn: he's so good that like you know it's kind of yeah man I mean he's I think like weirdly I think if there was one player I would probably have in every single side I supported all the time I think it would be Pedri weirdly because just I think what he gives you is just yeah unbelievable amazing but man also just a quick shout for Rodri because I think the Rodri that we're seeing at the tournament is not a Rodri we're expected to see at the tournament and the only person who knew was Pep yeah of course Pep's a genius yeah yeah but he he was amazing this tournament and Spain the thing for Spain which is wild is that you have Pedri like that midfield transition is going to feel kind of seamless but also Rodri and Fabio and Ruiz are only going to be 32 at the next Euros frightening they could realistically to be honest style of play wise play at the next World Cup definitely one of them but then you have Pedri or Gavi in there as well and it's Zubimendi's there Zubimendi yeah it's just looking really good for Spain yeah yeah I think worthy worthy winners of the World Cup man incredible incredible

47:42Musa Okwonga: and look I know a lot of people it's not their cup of tea some of the games like that but for me the thing I love about World Cup winners watching them is that they always solve problems. Someone look at this victory, 1-0, like Spain just like overwhelmed them. No, like this had to be, this was a very patient deconstruction and De La Fuente becomes the oldest coach to win a World Cup. Really? There was a stat about this, which surprised me. I was like, really? That's like, yeah. 65. It's not that, not that, not that old. But like his ascent, he's so funny he said a really funny thing before the tournament he gave an into for the final they were like will you man mark messi and he said funny story he said i think that sid low told the story funny story he said i was coaching a team of teenagers um against one of messi's teams gets a bar stoner team i think it was when he was at seville or something and it was nil nil and we had a man marker and we took the man marker off messi and he scored four goals the last 15 minutes so no we're not we're not man marking messi i liked your thing that you said

48:50Ryan Hunn: when the first drinks break came around in the stadio discord you said Rodri's followed Messi to the drinks machine.

48:57Musa Okwonga: He did this tactical foul. He did a tactical foul on Messi on the halfway line and I was like Rodri is playing all the hits today.

49:09Ryan Hunn: Quick one on transfer march. The previous holder of the oldest World Cup manager or World Cup winning manager was Del Bosque who was 60 years old when he won with Spain.

49:21Musa Okwonga: Del Bosque looked like 75, didn't he?

49:23Ryan Hunn: The thing is, it's really funny when you start going back into the, you know, when you were like, oh wow, like Alf Ramsey was genuinely only 46 years old when he won the World Cup. And you're like, just don't build him like they used to man. Zagala was 39.

49:39Musa Okwonga: Alf Ramsey was 46 when he won a World Cup and I'm doing a podcast. You're alright.

49:46Ryan Hunn: alright man we'll leave all the kind of big picture stuff and also some thoughts on the World Cup in general for the next show later on in the week which you can listen to if you are a Stadio member on Patreon let's wrap it up there congratulations to Spain worthy worthy winners and yeah just again thank you to everyone who's listened to all of the episodes in the World Cup if you either on the free feed or on Patreon we really really appreciate everyone who tuned in and yeah we do really appreciate the support and we hope you all enjoyed it we hope you all enjoyed the World Cup despite some of the really gross stuff going around it at the end of the day like we said man the football always the football always does its bit you know yeah absolutely and yeah man we'll talk more about that on the next show later in the week any other thoughts you want to add before we nothing further

50:40Musa Okwonga: congratulations Spain just an absolute joy to watch throughout the tournament and setting the standard once again alright everyone

50:47Ryan Hunn: don't forget London listeners tickets are in the description go and get those last tickets for the Southbank Centre with Nish Kumar and ourselves it's going to be this Thursday the 23rd of July and also don't forget to check the Stadio Archers playlist on Spotify speaking of which we're playing out on My Life's Alright by Shira Small anything you'd like to add Musogwanga listen man

51:08Musa Okwonga: my life's alright what can I add

51:10Ryan Hunn: alright everyone much love have a great week if you're listening on the free feed thank you so much for listening to us this season we'll be back with you in a few weeks at the beginning of the next season if you want to listen to more episodes through that time come and join us on Patreon patreon.com forward slash stadio Patreon members we'll be back with you later in the week with another episode and we'll save your big thank you for that one much love everyone have a great week see you then

51:38Musa Okwonga: My life's okay.

51:39Ryan Hunn: I've seen the highs of freedom, highs of loving, highs of living. My life is fine. Through my pain and tears, I am not fighting time. Live to laugh, live to cry. Wonder why.

52:12Thank you.

52:43Thank you.

53:08Thank you.

53:39Ryan Hunn: Live below, above, beside, smile a while Go and slow, we'll let it ride Just my style

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54:17Musa Okwonga: Here's a show that we recommend. The anti-Semitism capital of North America is now Montreal? That's what the New York Post reported. Hatred of Jews is now normal in Canada. And Jews are now the number one target of hate crime in the country. That's what the government of Canada says. I am a Canadian Jew, and I want to know, is all of that true? My name is Jesse Brown, and my new podcast is called What is Happening Here? Find it wherever you get your podcasts.

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