World Cup 2026, with Nish Kumar! Bellingham again, Spain and Argentina wins and more!

0:22Musa Okwonga: Hello and welcome back to the Stadio Podcast. I'm Musa Okwonga. I'm Ryan Hunn. Ryan, how are you doing? I'm doing all right, thanks man. How are you? i'm a fool i absolutely cleaned out my knee playing um football on the second day of the indie football festival in berlin which shout out to andrew ebber and the team was absolutely amazing it was amazing oh my god and a joy a joy i didn't want to leave had to leave because i got crocked uh i crocked myself um but just for those who don't know any football festival was a collection of people from different parts of the football world football sphere people making fanzines, people running their own football teams, came from different parts of Europe and a few from the US as well and it was just a celebration of football over two days and was kind of euphoric really.

1:07Musa Okwonga: Still on the high about it, yeah.

1:08Ryan Hunn: Yeah, it was great, man. We did a talk on Saturday. I unfortunately couldn't make it to the football tournament but it looked very, very fun. England won!

1:19Musa Okwonga: Which may or may not be an omen. Wow, you never know.

1:21Ryan Hunn: Yeah, we're going to try and catch up with Andrew and a couple of the gang this week as well. in Berlin but yeah it was amazing thanks so much to everyone who checked our talk and everyone we met that was great sorry to hear about your injury though dude that's all good

1:37Musa Okwonga: maybe I deserved it maybe I had it coming

1:39Ryan Hunn: who knows the football gods well we hope everyone else is staying safe and well wherever you are and a quick bit of admin today we have a guest and we're very excited he's going to be joining us for our Southbank Centre show in London next week 23rd of July you can buy the last lot of tickets in the description. We're going to be joined by the great Nish Kumar. Cannot wait. Very excited about that. He's also got a tour coming up in the UK and Ireland, so we chat a little bit about that. But we'll put a link in the description to go and buy tickets for his tour as well. So we're going to talk about the rest of the quarterfinals.

2:14Ryan Hunn: We talked about France-Morocco on Friday's show. If you're listening to this on the free feed and you want to sign up to hear every show ad-free in full, you get multiple shows a week. Patreon.com forward slash stadio. You can sign up as a podcast member where you just get the podcasts. Or if you want to sign up for the Stadio Social Club, you get the podcast plus access to the Stadio Social Club Discord. Other perks as well, like advanced tickets, merch discounts when we do merch, stuff like that. That'll do us for the admin. Before we get into the chat with Nish, we have to start today with some sad news which broke over the weekend.

2:45Ryan Hunn: This is taken from a BBC Sport article. South Africa Mamelodi Sundowns midfielder Jadon Adams has died at the age of 25. just weeks after appearing for South Africa at the World Cup. Gator McKenzie, who is the South African Minister of Sport, Arts and Culture, released a statement saying that it is with profound shock and a heavy heart that I have learned of the passing of Jaden Adams. South African football has lost one of its brightest young talents and our nation mourns alongside his family, his teammates and the millions of supporters who watched him grow from a promising academy prospect into a full Bofana Bofana International.

3:23Ryan Hunn: The article goes on to say that police in South Africa said they had opened an investigation after the body of a 25-year-old man was found at a house in a suburb of central Cape Town on Saturday morning. And the cause of death has not yet been confirmed.

3:38Musa Okwonga: Utterly, utterly grim, man. Heartbreaking, 25, and an incredible career. In progress, cut short, but far beyond that, just a life, a young life. Yeah, so thoughts, and condolences to his family and his loved ones.

3:53Ryan Hunn: Let's take it on to some more positive stuff. And shall we get into our chat with Nish? Yes, that we should do.

4:01Musa Okwonga: We are joined today by comedian and podcast host extraordinaire Nish Kumar. Nish, welcome to Stadio. Good to see you, boys. What an absolute pleasure to be here.

4:10Ryan Hunn: Thanks for joining us. How are you? Yeah, I'm really good. I can't remember when the last time I did this was, but I definitely remember at one point doing it from the hotel that Jose Mourinho was living in. No, I remember that conversation because you were saying that your dream Man United job was to be Fred the Red. Oh, I'd love to be Fred the Red. Here's my dream football jobs. Fred the Red, substitute who's brought on specifically to be a draft excluder. These are my two ideal jobs. Those are the only two jobs I'm qualified to fulfill on the football pitch. Fred the Red or substitute like you know like the penalty substitute like you're brought on to take a penalty absolutely no value in that the prospect of taking a penalty in a football match makes me immediately spontaneously shit myself so like neither of those two but absolutely bring me on to be a draft excluder oh no one no one lies down better than me when I'm just in my house I perennially look like a beached whale and so I think I'd be ideal When people ask me what you're doing, you'd be like, I'm training, actually.

5:15Musa Okwonga: Do you remember when Messi did it? Do you remember Messi's face when he did it? I saw the PSG and he was like, he was so excited. He's like, I don't get to do this.

5:24Ryan Hunn: There's that amazing clip of Ander Herrera, isn't there? He's like, Leo, Leo. And the literal translation is, sleep behind us. Or something like that. Which is so good.

5:34Musa Okwonga: You know when certain parents get a night off and they just go wild? Because they always have to be responsible. And they're not the designated driver anymore. the babysitters are in those parents have a certain level of chaos and Messi's face looked like that he was like oh my god wow I get to play I never get to do this

5:50Ryan Hunn: this is amazing how's the World Cup been for you so far man because it's felt like someone reminded me the other day that it had been a full month already and then the games start thinning out a little bit and all of a sudden you're like oh I kind of miss there being so much football the first day without a game is always the hardest day of a World Cup you get You readjust your rhythm. But in that first sort of two weeks, the group stage of the World Cup is such a pleasurable experience. If you are, say, just for the sake of example, a childless stand-up comedian. If you're a childless stand-up comedian and you can sort of design your...

6:30I should tell you, it's in my work diary. The World Cup is in my work diary. Now, obviously, it's fine for you two to have the World Cup in your work diary because it's quite literally your work. It's literally. Why the fuck is it in my work diary? Why have I got World Cup in my work diary? Like I'm expecting a call-up slash I'm co-hosting the rest is football. Have you done any World Cup stuff on Pod Save the UK? I mean, we've had a bit of chat about the World Cup, but it tends to be in the kind of discussion of what we've been up to this week. And Coco has four or five things to say and I'm like, I've just been watching the World Cup.

7:09And the only other reason we've fought the World Cup is for bad political reasons.

7:15Ryan Hunn: Oh God, we'll get into those. It felt like quite a... Well, I don't know, man. I think actually, I don't know. When we were talking about the Balogun thing last week and the decision to overturn... Not overturn, because that's the thing. The red card didn't get overturned. Yeah. The suspension of the ban. The suspension of the suspension. Say it. The suspension of the suspension. That's what it was. The suspension of the suspension. suspension inception kind of thing yeah yeah yeah yeah the marine calm was on um tifo and she said something really interesting which i agree with which was the fact that i think we'd all been on almost like hyper aware and hyper vigilant of excessive trump involvement through the group stages and the fact that he was actually like quiet made the balligan thing almost be like oh yeah this is all of the stuff that we were reminded of like we thought it was going to be daily and I think that once the football started it actually felt quite nice to be like yeah actually it doesn't no matter how bad things are I think we said the term we found it was a bit corny but it's like football always seems to find a way just to be like no no this is we've got it if you lot all just like leave us alone the show is actually really good yeah the thing about the Russians in 2018 and the Qataris in 2022 is that it felt like they understood how to, they understood how you successfully sportswash your regime.

8:39The Balogun incident particularly is just a classic example of why you can't involve yourself in a lie with Trump. And it happens to, it's interesting because it happens to so many figures within American politics is that they think that they're involved in a conspiracy with Trump, but he will always blurt it out. So FIFA had to come out and say, well, no, there was no pressure. And then he literally in the middle of a press conference independent committee of course I called them up of course I did it yeah of course I absolutely did it

9:04Ryan Hunn: that was probably my favourite bit it was a bit of a you know like Charlie Murphy's Hollywood stories where I was just like why would I I wouldn't put my feet on his couch why would I put my and then it just cuts it's like so I put my feet on his couch well yeah my favourite thing and I don't know how we'll classify these people they're sort of the they're sort of the the sort of confused the confused wingers to Trump's chaos because whenever you look back and see these clips, there was always something else he was supposed to be talking about. And there's two people either side of him that are there to talk about something irrelevant.

9:39And you just, the looks of confusion on their faces. Like I remember when he said there were very fine people on both sides after Charlottesville. And there were just two confused people because he was supposed to be giving a press conference about infrastructure week. And again, with this Balogun thing, there's just two people who presumably are there to talk about some piece of American governance. and they're just suddenly watching this guy be like yeah of course i got rid of the red card i mean full disclosure i don't know what a red card is but i got rid of it either way and i'm i'm i think an important part of the sort of trump legacy is the two confused wingers that are

10:11Musa Okwonga: trying to make sense scorpion what's that thing the scorpion of the frog that story about like how the the uh frog is crossing the river and it carries a scorpion it's back and at some point the scorpion stings the frog and they both drown and before they drown the frog was like why did you sting me and the scorpion goes it's in my nature yeah yeah so many of these people are like it's like scorpion and the frog like i think it began with like chris christie who was like came out like cussing trump and then like two weeks later is basically like in a hostage video going yeah trump's great and it happens with a ton of people including a politician who's recently passed like they all went against trump even mit romney yeah they were all like oh man screw this guy it's horrifying it's such a morality tale because what it shows is how obsessed all these people are with holding power.

10:59Musa Okwonga: Like every country has its like bleaker elements, you know, England, of course, no different. The bleakest part, I think, of the American, you know, cultural experience is that obsession with power and money at all costs. And those confused wingers, the look on their face is when they're going, ah, this is the price of the ticket. This is actually what I signed up for, to be on stage and for it to be excruciating for like 15 minutes. but for those once these 15 minutes are done I'll go back to like a world of obscurity and wealth beyond imagination yeah if I may bring that's it that's what they're all yeah yeah just if I can just survive those 15 minutes if I may bring it back to the World Cup they both they always the two people who are either side Trump who have come there to do something and then he's completely derailed it have the look of Pedro Neto and Gio Felix either side of Ronaldo that's what that's what I was going to say talking of confused wingers that's what that's what they have the look of they have the look of two people who thought they'd come there to win a World Cup for Portugal and actually they were there to service the egos of a megalomaniac standing in between them

12:03Ryan Hunn: Before we go to the three games that we haven't covered since the previous episode did you see the Rafa Liao clip where he's running on the left wing and Ronaldo apparently is like screaming for the ball behind the play so Rafa Liao stops, checks passes the ball to Ronaldo and just watches him stand there for like five or six seconds and then play a pass backwards and it kind of like zooms in a little bit on Liao and I swear I heard the curb music play because it's just like, it's just like, what are we doing? It's so weird. But anyway, we talked about the France-Morocco game on Friday's show and we're going to talk about the rest of the quarterfinals and then maybe a look ahead to the semifinals.

12:44Ryan Hunn: Should we start with England? How are we all feeling about England? The football team, I should probably. The men's football team before we start talking about by-elections. I mean, yeah, it was... Listen, Tuchel is a very, very smart manager, and he called it exactly correct at the end of the game. You know, what he said is completely accurate. It was a victory of sort of mentality. I mean, and he did single out Bellingham and he was right to. It was not a, it was a very, it was not a good performance for England. And there is a universe in which we easily, we easily, easily, easily could and possibly should have lost that game.

13:37I was actually, having watched it through, was completely unaware of the sort of camera wire kerfuffle. And I only found that out the day after. But I mean, even setting aside the idea that one of our goals could potentially have been disallowed, it was not a strong performance. You know, there's still something, I mean, I just think it's very difficult to win a tournament if you change your back four every single game. And I know this is not like, they've not just decided to freestyle it every time they start a game. it's to do with injuries and suspensions but I think that it you can see that there's a real problem obviously defensively there's a real problem there's also a real problem going forward because it means that the build-up and the first phase is always very always feels very confused and especially in that first half hour where Norway were very much just sat in and had been sitting very deep and waiting for England it felt like part of England's problem was that they're not like natural coached movements in how the ball moves through that first phase like i yeah i thought that um i i thought it was i thought it was a step back after the mexico game which i thought was you know was a really really impressive performance can i say as well on that and i just add to that if you look at england's right side compared to its left o'reilly and gordon defense you know

15:01Musa Okwonga: defensive pressure attacking confidence and then Konza and Madueke neither of whom attack with any level of comfort down the right flank not that you'd expect Konza to but Madueke I think the pressure that applies to players behind him this is not a knock on him he's had a difficult few months not just a difficult world cup and the thing is his his inability currently to really penetrate and be threatening down that right flank is such a problem for England because then it's just an obvious flaw and a weakness so then what you have is the central defenders and this is the strange thing i will say about this there's a lot of conversation about bellingham being a one-man show that's super unfair considering that elliot anderson in particular is doing an astonishing amount of work yeah like his his numbers not just the past completion this was the closest to a tony crow's performance i've seen from elliot anderson yeah it was absolutely elite i know that bellingham gets all the headlines because of his two goals as he should as he should don't get me wrong what Elliot Anderson did in this game and I've been talking about Anderson and Kroos for a few months now but this was absolutely sublime and it had to be Norway were finding every single pressure point that they had to offer this was a mixture of like this was basically like a Frankenstein of all England's worst fears it was a mixture of Premier League players who know these players intimately well and also the Buddha Glimp team yeah who had exposed several teams better than them or better than them on paper at Champions League level.

16:28Musa Okwonga: This, in terms of a matchup, this was a far worse proposition, I think, than, not to name other countries or nations, but than other nations that might have been billed as, oh, England should walk over this. Like, Norway were a very, very tough opponent and I don't think they're getting full credit for that either.

16:45Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I agree with that and I think also you get to, there's just a reality of tournament football. When you get to a certain point, you're not going to, it's very, very hard to blow teams away at certain points of the tournament. Yeah. I think Norway are a bit of a tricky opponent for many, many teams, especially teams who have aspirations of going on and winning it or expectations to be in the Final Four because they've not been in the World Cup for so long, yet they have arguably the world's greatest, best current number nine.

17:17Ryan Hunn: And a playmaker who is the captain of the national side, the captain at club level, but I think is getting weirdly maligned and maybe kind of underappreciated about how good he was. And I think Martin Odegaard in this game, you saw there were moments where he just started to take control a little bit for Norway. And the way that he was just keeping possession for them and moving the ball around in multiple different parts of the pitch I think was a problem for England. But also another thing that I think a lot of people didn't really talk about in the aftermath of it, they talked about it a lot before the game, but no one really talked about how draining those conditions must have been and the effect that that would have had on the game as a whole, I think.

17:54Ryan Hunn: and that was for both teams right but I think that the problem with that is that teams respond to fatigue in different ways and I think with Tuchel what he does deserve a lot of credit for is that the changes I think actually all worked in parts through the game and the Madweke thing is interesting because I was actually having a conversation with someone the other day about Madweke. Eye test wise he is he can be super frustrating for people yeah but I think his purpose and why he maybe starts games for England in this tournament is the fact that whatever you say about him, he will consistently work the left back just over and over and over again.

18:30Ryan Hunn: And he will consistently try and beat them, consistently give them problems. And because he is quite unpredictable, that can drain a defender when you're constantly being run at by someone who is absolutely rapid. And no matter how unpredictable they are, if they get past you, they can create some danger. and then I think we saw that in the Norway game specifically for when Saka came on and he managed to find two or three moments of genuine quality when he got past them and created a there was that one where out of nowhere he looked like he'd basically been crowded out and then riddled past got to the byline cut it back and there was no one there or Harry Kane was a little bit on his heels what I think I've been really impressed with Tuchel is that it almost feels like Everything has a purpose.

19:18Ryan Hunn: It's all been quite methodical. I think he got one of his in-game changes wrong. I think that when he brought Eze on for the second half, I thought, that's fantastic. That's very punchy. I like the idea of bringing Eze into this game. And within two minutes, I suddenly realised, oh no, this is the wrong change. Because actually taking Rice out of that, putting Bellingham in the eight, always leaves us too open. It's the reason that Bellingham, And, you know, it's the reason that Bellingham doesn't play there. He doesn't have the positional discipline. And also, given the way that he's playing at the top end of the pitch at the moment, we sort of don't want him to have that positional discipline.

19:54We want him as close to Harry Kane as possible. And we suddenly look very, very open at the start of the second half. So I would say I don't think he got that. I think that was the wrong call. I think that was a moment where, obviously, we're suffering from a case of long Arsenal. Arsenal success. and Rice was also ill last week I think Rice was ill and he's knackered I also absolutely I totally I definitely agree with you Ryan in terms of what Maduweko brings but I think it's clear that obviously if Saka is 100 % fit there's no way we're not starting him you know everything that he brings he's so potent as an attacking force but also he's so disciplined he doubles up with his fullback so brilliantly and I actually think I think Norway might reflect on this and see it as an opportunity missed and I think I understand this kind of it's almost the over-Americanisation of the football tactics and the viewing of the game as four quarters the fact that they went into this with the idea of well we bring in Noosa and Oskar Bob in that final I think the Norwegian manager got that wrong I think that he I think that had they actually started one of Nusser or Bob, I think that they would have been in a much better position to cause us problems.

21:18And actually, England started to make headway in that first half because I think O 'Reilly particularly realised, actually, there's not a huge amount of running going in behind me. And I can start pushing further and further up the pitch.

21:30Musa Okwonga: And central, central as well. Yeah, and central, yeah. Because there's nobody, there's no one tracking him. and the threat maybe wasn't as immediate as it would have been if it had been Oscar Bob that was running in behind him. And, you know, I mean, I'm sure we're going to talk about this because we were talking about it even before we started recording. But the bit where the game gets away from Norway is the two-on-one, where Sulla, there is a pass on to Haaland, but he doesn't even attempt it. And, you know, part of that is just because he's not a winger, and this is what happens when you are starting a centre-forward as your right winger and I do think that Norway handed some of the initiative over to England by not starting with certainly not with not starting with Noosa which they have done quite a few times in this tournament and but then I and so I think that we came out open in the second half I think that was a that was a moment for Kobe Mainu I'm sorry to I'm sorry to say I'm sorry to reveal my club loyalties by using the phrase long arsenal and bringing up Kobe Maino.

22:32No, dude, this is a safe space niche. But I think that was a moment for Maino to come in. You know, that's exactly the position he plays. Elliot Anderson was playing totally. Everybody is right to single out Elliot Anderson. He is, you know, I think probably the concern with the move and the stuff happening with City is that it would kind of heap an extra layer of pressure, which somebody who's playing in the number six position for England already doesn't need but Anderson Anderson looks worth it looks like he's worth every penny that Manchester City either have or are about to pay for him like he he understands the positional side of playing as a six he's composed on the ball he's got the physical side covered it's probably the thing that gave him the edge when it came down to either him or Adam Wharton for the England squad the physical side of Anderson's game is probably the thing that he still has over Wharton even though I also think Wharton is a brilliant player but yeah they I think that was a moment for Kobe Maynou but then again you realize with Tuchel that he's not precious and can acknowledge when he's made a mistake and he very quickly identified this is not correct and then brought Rhys James in to kind of sit in in that number eight position next to Elliot Anderson and again I felt that that was a moment for Kobe Maynou but clearly for whatever a reason to call doesn't trust him in that in that position and yeah and i but yeah i think i do think norway might look back on this i think that you know they i i saw harlan's comments after the game and he's right to sort of celebrate the achievement of the team and how far they've come i just wonder that in the cold light of day they might sort of reflect on the game and the way that the game shook down and like maybe sold back and might look back on this and think we were maybe slightly overcautious and our starting 11 was maybe a bit too conservative.

24:25Musa Okwonga: I don't think they realised that's a great analysis. I don't think they realised how open England might be in certain contexts. The Sirloch pass or the failure to pass it's interesting because I wonder if okay let's look at this you've kept possession what do you think you're capable of attempting in terms of a finish? Because are you going to hit this with your left across a keeper who's that good a shot stopper? Is that the plan, actually? Whereas if you put it to Haaland, he can finish across his body to his favoured position. It all makes sense to lay off at that point. It's just so strange.

24:59I think it's an adrenaline rush. Stones does well. He does. Because Stones doesn't commit himself either way. He sits in that kind of half space that means that he's technically covering the pass and the run. But that's, again, I think it is Stones, right? It is Stones that's the covering defender. But you see, you know, Stones is... Listen, and I'm happy to eat crow on this. I didn't understand why Stones was in the squad. I didn't think he played enough football. But, you know, shock horror, it turns out Thomas Tuchel knows more about football than a stand-up comedian. But you saw his experience.

25:33Like, Stones, in that moment, recognises the player that has the ball. And he recognises that, actually, he's probably not got the run on him.

25:44Musa Okwonga: That is a man that has marked Ellen Haaland in training hundreds of times. He knows the risk is the pass. Like, yeah. This is how you defend Erling Haaland, right? And it's the same with Messi. You don't, we've said this a thousand times, you defend him as a team. You do not defend him one-on-one. If you do that, you're cooked. Unless you are peak physical Antonio Rudiger, unless you are that, or let's say peak focus, peak physicality, peak technique, Dio Epamecano, right? Unless you're one of those two players, I think that it's very difficult to defend one-on-one. So what you do in that situation is with Haaland, you have to just close off angles.

26:18Musa Okwonga: You put someone in front of the winger that's about to supply it to him and you put someone in front of the playmaker when they're running a counter and you hope that person runs it badly. If that is Martin Odegaard in possession, it's 2-0. Yeah, 100%. Again, this is just what Sillat showed is the difficulty of running a counter. Because three or four different decisions are running through your mind at the same time and the best one would have been a pass with the outside of the left foot to maintain momentum because the gap does open up for a pass. It's not actually, I think the gap for the pass isn't as big as it looks, funnily enough, because the covering defenders come back quite well, but there is still a gap with the outside of the left foot.

26:56Musa Okwonga: It doesn't take it. And again, if it's Odegaard or even if it's Nusser or Bob who are more positionally familiar with that kind of, that sort of inside right channel that he finds himself running in, we're in real trouble. But yeah, I think Tuchel then subsequently got his in-game changes right. And I mean, listen, I can't, off the top of my head, conjure, like it doesn't come easily to me to name an England player, maybe Rooney in 2004, but it's very difficult to think of an England player who has ever been in the middle of the kind of tournament that Jude Bellingham is having, you know. yeah well can I go further than that this is wild okay so this is from it's a stat from FocMob only Kane and David Beckham have more goal involvements than Bellingham at major tournaments yeah Bellingham is the first player this is the wild yeah ever this is the wild yes yes ever ever now this stat is the wild I think you're forgetting how consistently bad we've been at major tournaments true or how good how good Bellingham's been two semifinals

28:10Ryan Hunn: in the last eight years this is normal get this two Euros final

28:14Musa Okwonga: this is the wild this is the wildest stat Bellingham is the first player to score two or more goals in successive World Cup knockout stage games since Diego Maradona in 86 wow and the youngest the youngest to do so since Pele in 1958 wow that's wild these are yeah that I knew I had to read that stat to you both because it just that is that's the scale of what he's doing and here's the thing I think people there's a few reasons why it's so difficult to absorb what Bellingham's doing it's because he doesn't come in the form we expected we expected bellingham to be like a freewheeling like you know greelish like off the calf like gas coin did it there we we expected him to be like someone who was in the english psyche lads lads lads like just a maverick who just goes and does this thing and like whoa not not a kind of like 99 % extremely media savvy and 1 % mind-blowingly spiky.

29:07Musa Okwonga: Yeah. He hasn't, he's not kind of, he hasn't done this in a quote, very English way. And this is what I think is so interesting about the Tuchel and Bellingham like discourse, right? Do you know what's so funny, right? If you look at what they've actually won, Tuchel and Bellingham are the greatest protagonists in this squad. Now I know that, I know that Rhys James has won a Champions League and he was man of the match, arguably in the final alongside Kante, but as protagonists who've won huge stuff, Tuchel with the Champions League who also coached at PSG and Bellingham who won that double of league and Champions League in his first season at Real Madrid this is what a winning mentality looks like this is how spiky these people are like as much as Harry Kane exceptional footballer Tuchel and Bellingham truly understand what it is to climb the mountaintop and one thing I want to compare them to you know I would compare Tuchel to Michael Jordan and Bellingham to LeBron James and what I mean by that is there's different ways to ascend the mountaintop, right?

30:04Musa Okwonga: And Tuchel's way is the Jordan way, scorch the earth, ruthless perfectionism. And Bellingham's more like LeBron James, more collegiate, won't really like cook a teammate in public. At the very worst, they'll send a passive aggressive tweet, but fundamentally the stuff is behind closed doors. It's unlike LeBron to come out after a game and be like, that player on my team wasn't doing X, Y, Z, or that he's much less likely to do it. And what we saw, I think, with Tuchel and Bellingham is just two different forms of slightly sociopathic sporting excellence. Yeah. But in a sense, they're both correct.

30:40Tuchel designed this game plan to work in humid conditions.

30:44Musa Okwonga: It wasn't like Tuchel sat there and said, it's not going to be hot in America. This is the game plan that will work in 16 degrees. Tuchel designed this game plan because he said, basically, this is a complex system of passing options that you should use if under pressure. But because Tuchel doesn't have the same amount of time with this team that Pep had with his Barcelona squad, right? It's hard to get these automatisms in place, right? It's hard to execute these complex passing moves. So what the England players do under pressure, in humidity, is revert to maybe their primal state, which is put it in the mixer.

31:18Musa Okwonga: A little bit of hero ball. Put it in the mixer and pray. And what Tuchel's basically saying is the coaching habits, the playing habits I've tried to give them haven't anchored yet. And Bellingham, of course, from the players' perspective is going, actually these aren't going to anchor because it's too humid. And I think they're kind of both right. Yeah, I agree. I think that maybe this is a slightly bigger, just because it's unusual to see a player descent from a manager's perspective. You know, Tuchel, like this is just a grand tradition. Like this is Ferguson in the Scottish Cup final in 1993 calling his players disgraceful after they've just won a cup final.

31:55You know, like it's like this is a sort of classic, this is a sort of classic management this is a manager's frustration and you know seeing the structural flaws of the team when you win is part of what makes an elite manager an elite manager you know part of what makes an elite manager an elite manager is not walking away from that saying you know at the end of the day it's a results business, it's walking away from that going fuck me we got lucky and we need to we definitely definitely definitely need to improve if we're going to go all the way in this tournament. And I think that, yeah, but I think what's unusual is when that's put to Bellingham, normally players would be diplomatic about it and say, well, yeah, you know, the gaffer this, the gaffer that.

32:40But obviously Bellingham, it just is a bit more of a headstrong character. And I think he is right that, Tugel is right in that the automations didn't come through, but Bellingham is also at least correct to point out that the conditions did make some of that hard. Also, again, what makes it hard is another reshuffling of the back four. You know, that's the foundational basis for a team. It's not just your defensive structure. It's the basis upon which you build your possession. And so it is really difficult. And taking Rhys James' fitness issues, the long Chelsea, if you will, is a real problem because not just because he is the best right back we have, but also because he is a sort of uncommonly gifted right back in possession.

33:30And again, it does really affect the build-up and it affects the way that the team plays. That coupled with the fact that they were playing in a full swamp. You know, Miami is a swamp. It's a brutal condition to play in. The humidity is brutal. And so, yeah, I think they are both right. It is that, you know, it is that it's a winner's mentality. it is sort of I'm sorry to be so Man United centric but it is sort of Keane and Ferguson that is exactly the sort of thing you can imagine and you know in a way it's good, you sort of want Bellingham who is the kind of one of the leaders of this squad kind of standing up for the players in that conversation.

34:18Ryan Hunn: I don't really have any problem with it to be honest like, I don't know, a lot of people I've seen kind of be like oh is this the drama that we you know everyone's like just waiting for drama with it i'm like i'm fine with it i think also i think i think like if you it felt like one of those things where managers ask something manager says something that thing then gets put to play it and the player's just like the bellingham like whatever thing yeah i think it's more about like why are you asking me this as opposed to what actually yeah yeah whatever it's kind of like the permer to saka thing after was it algeria 2014 when he's just like what do you want from me it's like a really famous like german interview where he's just like i've just done like 120 minutes i want to get in an ice bath what do you want from me we're through like actually here's

35:00Musa Okwonga: the question here's a question actually now i think about it we're talking about like florida and the playing conditions how difficult it was what's more arduous playing norway in a world cup game or playing donald trump for 18 holes what's the toughest sporting can i say on this can i say i'm i just want to i don't want to make i don't label the point because there's a lot of discourse around this. I'm going to say this just on a personal level. So please, my views do not represent the views of the official Stadio podcast audience. But when I heard that, when I saw Harry Kane's comments and heard that he played a round of golf with Donald Trump 18 months ago, about the time that Trump was just beginning to carve up some of the biggest global institutions known to humanity and had all this terrible stuff.

35:42Musa Okwonga: I can't lie to you. I was setting off to watch, this is some people behind the curtain. I was setting off to watch the game with a bunch of friends out in a bar and cheer on England. And the understanding of what Kane had done or the feeling of what he'd done was so deflating that I was running, I ended up running late and ended up just watching the game by myself at home because I just thought, I don't feel empowered to go and be like England, England, when I'm not even sure exactly what I'm cheering for. And don't get me wrong, like Kane and Bellingham close, great chemistry. Look, I'm sure I'm just being in my own little woke corner, like by myself, like sad and whatever.

36:15Musa Okwonga: but I will say this, it was really deflating in a way I didn't expect. I didn't expect it. Like I love Harry Kane as a footballer, all the stuff he's done. So happy for him at buy-in. But when I saw this and he was commenting, oh, it was surreal, you know? And I was like, you know, he's not a bad player. Actually, I thought to myself, a lot of people are going, oh, like, well, it's an ambassadorial thing. He had to accept the invite. Someone else said, well, you know, he's not the smartest guy. It's like, no, Harry Kane is a really smart guy. He's really empathetic, really thoughtful, cares about community.

36:43Musa Okwonga: And I thought to myself at one level, oh this is he invited you to play golf with him because he thought he's someone i see as a friend you took the invitation and you speak about it as someone you could be quite friendly with and trump's talking to you about you're like someone who actually yeah he's a cool guy get on with and i just thought to myself if i'm honest this is kind of gross yeah i can't like i don't know i found it gross and i when i say gross not a kind of like oh my god disgusting as in like really it was disappointing and it made me just look at my fandom and go wow are you really going to go to a bar and like be like whoa yeah harry when he rips one top corner are you going to feel that joy and i thought well no i'm not actually because i don't think we're aligned on how we're seeing all of this stuff right now yeah i mean part of the reason it's going is um just don't play golf with some fucking old man like what like yeah unless it's your dad or your granddad or a relative unless he's a relative but also it's you know I think there's two issues here one that he is just his administration has just treated the competition that you're participating in incredibly unfairly and also has treated your fellow professionals really unfairly you know Omar Artan is a co-worker of Harry Kane's you know and he was prohibited from entering the US to referee a tournament that he was qualified to referee in.

38:11The Iranian football team are your co-workers, right? So when people say we can't expect Harry Kane to have an understanding of geopolitics, you do have an understanding that this man has mistreated your co-workers, right? The Iranian team has not had a fair go at this World Cup. And for Kane to have no opinion on that is kind of disappointing because even if I don't expect him to understand the geopolitics of what's going on, I do expect him to have an understanding of how he would feel if the England team hadn't been able to stay in America and had to fly straight back to Mexico after every single one decade.

38:47No fans got visas. You know, I would expect him to have some professional empathy for the other people. So the fact that the only things he had to say were, yeah, I played golf with him and he was better than I expected is kind of disappointing. But it also does throw into relief when people say things like we can't expect sports people to have an understanding of geopolitics. we can't expect them to speak out on these issues it does throw in you know Muhammad Ali was a boxer like he was a boxer and he was a kid, he was much younger he was younger than Harry Kane was when he took a principled stance on the Vietnam War you know, John Carlos and Tommy Smith were also professional athletes that had an understanding of the geopolitics and the significance of what they were doing, so there's on the one hand where, you know we're We expect some people to have them.

39:39Kaepernick, we expect, you know, we're not surprised when Kaepernick. So there are people within the kind of infrastructure. If you look at the way Mbappe has spoken about the far right in France, there are people, and again, Mbappe is younger than Cain, right? So there are people that have an understanding of the geopolitics. So it isn't just that, you know, you can't just dismissively say we can't expect sports people to have an understanding of the geopolitics. But equally, on top of that, even if he's not commenting on geopolitics, your fellow professionals have been treated very very poorly by this administration so if you're going to comment on anything and you've played golf with him 18 months ago you should at least have a position on that that his administration under his presumably direct instruction has complicated the ability of your professional colleagues to play in the tournament that you were playing and has sullied a sense of the world cup's basic fairness yeah the i think

40:33Ryan Hunn: also the way that some athletes talk about things like that kind of gives you a little bit of a glimpse into how much they dip their toes into that stuff yeah whereas Mbappe you can tell like even just when he was talking about like gambling and betting companies and why he won't do that kind of stuff that like the social awareness about that or the impact that that those kind of things have he's fully on with and I think with Kane it's just like yeah it was just the thing that I got from that was this that in it's instead of being like okay Donald Trump who is doing all this stuff here and is like you know part of this whole like movement in the states conversations that us three would maybe have about what is going on there wasn't what was coming across it was the president asked me to play golf yeah and i was like whoa and that's basically it and that kind of gave me a thing and to be like all right okay and yeah it's super disappointing is it surprising not massively

41:22Musa Okwonga: yeah i i i will say i i i did find it surprising not because i expect them to give like a detailed dissertation on geopolitics but because it was like it was clearly an experience that he hasn't wrestled with and that he actually just really enjoyed and that was disappointing yeah that he

41:40Ryan Hunn: didn't seem to wrestle with it maybe just like a line or two about being like i feel like it's can be honest i just look at him i think i see jimmy fallon now i see jimmy fallon like everybody's

41:50Musa Okwonga: friend like i think his thing is i'm everybody's friend i'm cool with everyone i've got friends from here friends from there but i'm kind of everybody's friend and that's kind of the lane in which he has probably been his entire career we just didn't see it but like oh yeah harry good lad that's kind of his energy and look i can't go too much further than that because i don't know the guy but a white german friend said a bit that i could have could ever have done when i spoke about this i said man did you see this and he said look at how they treated meser ozil when meser Ozil had a few photos with Erdogan.

42:23Musa Okwonga: Like, Mesut Ozil was done after that. Yeah. He was done. He was done. And never came back from it. And I'm not saying that he should or he shouldn't. I'm just saying it's so different in terms of the discourse. No one made excuses for Mesut Ozil. No one said, he's not smart. No one said, oh, he's not that locked in. And everyone was like, this is a geopolitically engaged, smart, thoughtful individual. And we're going to give him all the pelters accordingly. But the excuses and the conversations I've seen around Cain in the last like, well, not excuse, rationales, explanations, but maybe put it differently, more charitably.

43:02Musa Okwonga: I'm like, wow, you're really not treating this guy as a man in his thirties who is worldly, which he clearly is. Yeah, and I'll return to the streets of Rio on the night of the last Brazilian election and the hordes of people chanting Neymar, Neymar, pay your tax. So it isn't even just, oh, we're speaking defensively, we're being defensive of Harry Kane because he's English. Look at the way the Brazilian fans chanted. Look at the way the Brazilian fans chanted about Neymar on the night of, you know, taunting Neymar like the god of the last decade of Brazilian football. It was Brazilians on the streets in Rio taunting Neymar about his support for Bolsonaro.

43:43And, you know, so there are precedents around the world. It's also worth raising, you know, Jackson Irvine, the Australian guy, who, you know, has again been very outspoken.

43:52Ryan Hunn: Of course, of course he's been on Stadio. Yeah, of course, of course he is. We just refer to him as the captain. That's what we refer to him as.

44:03He is, he's the captain. it's worth highlighting he's about the same age as Cade as well you know and it's again there there have been players that have yeah that have sort of spoken out about this kind of stuff so you know it is we're not here to piss on everyone's chips obviously you know no no no because actually

44:21Musa Okwonga: to be honest if anyone look I I got the piss on my chips yeah I'm the one that felt it don't get me wrong like I I have been agonising over England's like successes or failures international level for as long as anyone on this podcast I think I'm the oldest person on this podcast, right? So I'm invested. And I think like, just like all the other England fans, I guess I want a fairy tale. And I want, you know, I've got, we've all got, this is the thing about the England team. We all have our own version of our fairy tale in our heads and to bring it back to the actual football, because, you know, we've got to go back there at some point and that's great.

44:58Musa Okwonga: What's interesting is all the conversation about the discourse, the Bellingham stuff, whatever, and Tuchel. If you just look at the interview, the interviews with the England fans they don't care about any of this they're like they know what they've seen they went to Mexico and saw Bellingham do that like yeah when England beat Mexico in that game I was like regardless of whether they win the World Cup or not this is a World Cup winning performance yeah yeah like as in when a team finally wins the World Cup they're all gonna have a performance like Bellingham against Mexico in the catalogue at some point does that make sense It's a bit like Bellingham, what Bellingham did to Mexico in its own context was what Mbappe did to Argentina in 2018.

45:37Musa Okwonga: Yeah, yeah. And the level of brilliance of what, I was re-watching that recently. And my goodness, Mbappe is so, he is, if there's ever been a human being as a footballer who has tormented, terrorized, who appears in the nightmares regularly of a nation, it's killing Mbappe in Argentina. That man is so anchored in their nightmares. It's remarkable. And Bellingham did the same for Mexico, I think. But yeah, and the last thing I will say about this and we will go back to the football the very last thing i'll say about this is a i i love harry kane he's absolute without question the best england number nine of my entire life one of the best number nines we've ever seen i would just say i would just ask sections of the specifically english media to have some consistency because when marcus rashford wanted to feed the children of this country we had a lot of people who have a lot of newspaper columns saying things like keep politics out of sport.

46:27And now Harry Kane has played golf with Donald Trump and I'm just asking for consistency. That's all I'm asking for. I know I'm not going to get it. I'm just asking questions. That's all it is. Just asking questions. Just asking questions, man. Just throwing that out there. Listen, man, I'm a stand-up comedian. I've got a podcast mic in front of me. It's natural that I'll go full Joe Rogan and all Joe is doing is asking questions.

46:50Ryan Hunn: Dish Kuban says, I'm a stand-up comedian. I've got a podcast and a mic in front of me. In the words of Javier Aguirre to Anthony Gordon, fuck you

47:00Ryan Hunn: the best moment of the World Cup by the way by a million million miles just the face the face that he makes after it it's just like heart like big big heart emoji and Gordon's laugh is amazing

47:14Musa Okwonga: beautiful beautiful segue big World Cup moments or member World Cup moments Dennis Zakaria begging the ref Arjunus Witson not to give Riel and Bolo the second yellow. That is, that sounds like HBO, isn't it? It's horrible. In the middle of the stadium, watched by millions of people and the silence when he's like, ref, no, no, no, because he knows what's coming.

47:38Ryan Hunn: This is the second time in the tournament that this rule has been implemented. And on the whole, people don't really know that it's actually being used, even though it was used in the Paraguay USA game as well. Like very early on in the tournament. One of those ones that feels, I don't know man I mean to be fair wild dive wild dive it's unbelievable I was looking at this being like I want to be so sympathetic to Braylon Bolo but it looks even like every time you look at it it looks worse and worse and worse it's one of the worst I can't actually understand why he's done it so the mistaken identity thing is being used for those who don't know there is that what they're using it for now is if there is a defense from an opponent from a player whereas actually the offense was committed by the opposition yeah they can implement that law right it's just weird to see it's weird to see var implemented i think we're not used to var being implemented for yellows yeah yeah yeah so i think it's still kind of bending people's brains a little bit yeah but it's kind of like it was quite bad and it was awful and the thing is as well can i

48:53Musa Okwonga: just jump in like the momentum was with switzerland right so we have like a swiss fan just going like this decision is one of the worst like one of the worst most consequential and it's so strange because it's not even it's like it's not even in the box it's just near the halfway line it's a nothing on the touch line yeah i've got a theory about this i think it was an intrusive thought the dive that he took is so it's so strange what's your take on it Nish? The thing that I'm slightly struggling with is and I don't I mean this in that I'm genuinely as in I would like somebody to explain it to me the distinction between so in the Congo game Kane goes down the penalty is given and then the technology is used to say that he dived but that isn't a booking because that's Kane not simulating but initiating contact and I think that that is a re they've created a really complicated gray area because it's really really hard to distinguish between the dive and the initiation of contact because you can make the case that Mbola like oh it is a truly hilarious and as we said as you both said I've got nothing further to add on it beyond it was so fucking unnecessary like it's there's no I don't know what he's doing, but he does flick his leg out.

50:16So there isn't, that law change is really a complicated gray area, I think now, where, you know, Mbolo could make the case that he is trying to initiate contact. I mean, it's, you know, I know that this is not, I know that the rules are the rules. It just feels, it felt bad. It felt bad to see him leave the field in tears. and to see him have to leave the field under those circumstances I'm not I'm not I'm not questioning the enforcement of the rules I'm just saying that just as a fan of the World Cup it felt bad to see a player you know in such a consequential game changing moment really because like you say Moose like Switzerland were really in the ascendancy at that point

51:07Musa Okwonga: This was his moment this was their moment I actually stayed up to watch the game and regrettably due to I believe between four and six pints that I'd consumed during the England match I watched the first half of this game and then had fallen asleep and I think another part of the reason beyond the and I cannot stress this enough four to six pints that I'd consumed earlier I like the way that you don't actually know

51:33Ryan Hunn: it's just

51:36Musa Okwonga: expected pints allegedly Allegedly. Yeah, my XP was very high. My XP was very high. It was also partially because, you know, Argentina are a goal up. You're thinking, part of you is thinking this game is, for all intents and purposes, over. And obviously, so I then woke up and watched extra time. And part of the reason I think I woke up is normally I would have just, you know, roused myself and gone to bed. But obviously the game was still on. and the scoreline and the presence of a red card functioned like a black coffee to my central nervous system. I was suddenly the most awake I had ever been because I thought, well, how on earth has this happened?

52:19And then obviously going back and watching it the next morning, it does... I know that we can't measure, you know, you can't build the rules off the back of this. It just, it felt bad that that was such a decisive factor. and also again the problem with Argentina is they once again looked really shaky they looked poor but we've been here before with them four years ago where they consistently looked shaky and poor and they do seem to find a way yes you know I mean there's a lot of people on the internet that have a specific theory of how Argentina are finding in inverted commas finding a way through this tournament they're having a way found for them through the tournament

53:01Ryan Hunn: This is precisely the thing that you've touched on what I was going to say, right? My first thought when that happened was like, I'm not again. I'm sick of seeing rigged. It's going to be the Oxford word of the year, rigged, honestly, because it's just everywhere through the World Cup. It happened in the England game, right? Which we didn't even touch on quickly, but before we move on, the disallowed Norway goal, where it's like, no, dude, the guy shoved another guy with two hands on his chest and pushed him over before the corner was taken. it's a foul I don't know man like everything is a conspiracy I can't deal with it it's exhausting also it's just I just think it's really hard to rig football is is anarchy like it's it's walled anarchy essentially like and it's like trying to rig spilled marbles you know like it's like it's so hard you know you're trying to rig a football match is really complicated and difficult you know you're trying to sort of stuff a cloud into a pillowcase like it's so difficult because of the like speed of the game and the nature of the collision so i mean yeah i also just briefly to return to the camera why i believe apparently that goal should have been disallowed i'm not i was not familiar with that rule but the only thing i can offer as a you know as somebody who is like he has directed filming like tell like filming of tv shows can i just say maybe it's not a great idea in a game where a ball flies around without people having real control of it to not have low flying UFO cameras like maybe we just don't need those maybe that angle is not one we need in the course of the fucking game probably it's fine to use those drone cans for the over the shoulder shots of the penalty takers because it's unlikely to affect the trajectory of the penalty, if the penalty taker manages to hit the ball behind them and upwards into the camera you can probably safely say that person was not going to score in the first place but like let's maybe review and we don't necessarily need the kind of drone the the cabled drone shots spider cam yeah it's so stupid man but anyway this is so fitting yeah but this is such a fitting

55:11Musa Okwonga: intrusion i think that yeah the presence of the cable of god are people are calling it the presence of that is so fitting because yeah i've seen people call the cable of god it's fitting because so much about this tournament has been about things that are external to football and not customised to football encroaching on the actual game itself yeah and this is just the perfect emblem of that and like who knows if Norway win if they go into the break at 1-0 up but there's a very good chance they do of course we'll get to know but the way they were controlling the game at that point and Bellingham just willing them back into it that's right I don't know you have to say yeah you have to say it's so consequential Can I ask, just to return to the game we were talking about, I'm fascinated by what you both think of Argentina, because early in the tournament I was quite bullish about them, because at the group stages I thought they have the air of a club team.

56:05I'm not saying that they're nowhere near as good as the dominant Spanish teams, but the thing that they have in common with that 2008-2012 Spain vintage is that they look like a club team. and the running that DePaul does really reminds me of the running Matuidi did in that 2018 French team where he sort of was able to he kind of created a shape within the team that allowed Pogba and Mbappe to sort of float on the peripheries more and like the work that he's doing to sort of free up Messi particularly is really important now that being said since the knockouts they've been consistently shit and have essentially relied on Messi to bail them out.

56:49And then in this game, I mean, I guess if you have a player like Alvarez in the team, it feels like, it feels inevitable that at some point he's going to do what he did. You know, he's such a brilliant footballer. And, you know, part of the reason I think they went all the way last time is that there were moments where people like Ebi Martinez and Alvarez, and I guess most notably in the final Di Maria, did stand up and contribute outside of it just being the sort of messy show. But I would love the two of you to explain to me, or just answer me this question, are Argentina good?

57:28Musa Okwonga: Yes, yes, yes. But can I throw this in? They're Croatia 2018. Okay, yes. And what I mean by that is, so Croatia 2018 went to two knockouts, two penalty shootouts, and everyone was like, oh, they can't keep running. They can't keep running. And this enraged them so much as an analysis that when they went through to the final, they came out and were like, we saw all of that stuff. We saw all of that stuff and it made us enraged. And I think Argentina right now, this World Cup is perfect for them. It's perfect. Siege mentality. We've been talked down. We've got haters. Even the people that love us don't understand us.

58:07Musa Okwonga: No one gets us. No one gets us. Even some of the supporters get us. The only ones that get us are the people in that dressing room who are fighting for Leo's final World Cup. That is it. And they love this. And they are going to run like demons against England. Absolute demons to the point where people be like, oh my God, are these people like secretly triathletes? That is what's going to happen. They are good. And they're absolutely terrifying because all that Messi has needed in this tournament is a co-pilot, right? It's what he did in 2014. It's what he needed last World Cup. And he hasn't had a consistent one.

58:40Musa Okwonga: Last time you could argue it was Enzo or it was Alvarez. in this one it's been different people stepping up it's been Lautaro it's been Alvarez whatever but that's all that Messi needs and actually the last couple of games have been his least impressive of the tournament yeah but that hasn't mattered and that I think is quite frightening because they've still found a way despite Messi being you know March of Time whatever you call it or the scrutiny players being underwhelming given his own high standards actually. So yeah, they are they're very, very good. To win the World Cup they will need an element of luck.

59:15Musa Okwonga: I think they'll need more luck than the other three teams left in the tournament but absolutely they're a good side. I think it's right that they focused on the I think it's right that they focused on the refereeing decisions after the Egypt game because you know, it did rob us of I mean, I know they scored almost exactly the same goal about five minutes later but It did rob us of one of the great... We talk about the difficulty of counterattacking with the Norwegian 2-1, but the way that Egypt executed that disallowed goal and then the goal that they scored from Zika was so extraordinary. But the thing that I thought was remarkable about that game was yes, Messi was poor, and then in the last 10 minutes, he just decided it was 2009 again.

59:58And he positioned himself on the right wing and he started running at his fullback. and it was absolutely, it was such a bizarre experience because it really reminded me of the first, you know, there were points where it reminded me of the goal against Zaragoza, I think, in the Copa del Rey, which was the first time I ever saw Messi. It was the first time I ever saw him. Oh, wow. Like grainy TV footage on... Was it Guatafe? Maybe it was Guatafe. It's that... When he cooks everyone. It's the goal that he essentially recreated the Maradona goal. cutting in cutting in off that right hand side and it is yeah it is it did have some of that because he nearly tees up Alvarez like a minute before he scores the goal where he but again it's like it is sort of terrifying that he is still capable of conjuring that type of performance this wasn't like late period Muhammad Ali rumble in the jungle leaning on the ropes Messi like that was 2000 that was first era that was like Reichard Barcelona Messi like it was

1:01:06Ryan Hunn: yeah it was like watching a compilation number 30 number 30 Messi it was like watching a compilation of Messi against Athletic Club do you know what I mean just like I was like which goal is this he said Messi picks the ball up on the halfway line alright this could be any one of like 30 goals that we've seen but I think the thing for the last game the Switzerland game from Argentina point of view is the Alvarez goal the Alvarez goal I think could be if Argentina go all the way which I I personally don't think they will yeah they might get to the final yeah yeah I'm still not sure they'll win it but I don't I don't know I think at this stage any four of those teams can win the World Cup yeah yeah that's just a fact yeah I think if they do I think they will look back on the Alvarez goal against Switzerland because not only was it the goal that put them ahead in extra time but I think people were waiting for him to activate a bit yeah

1:01:55Musa Okwonga: this felt like Enzo against Mexico yeah yeah Enzo Fernandes against Mexico with the same kind of goal as well where you were like Like, Lo Celso's out. And Lo Celso at that point had been Messi's, like, chief co-conspirator in that team, like, even beyond Di Maria in terms of combinations. And Enzo stepped up and you're like, okay, that's all Messi needed. He needed Robin for his Batman and he got it. And I think Alvarez... You know, we've talked about playing with Messi being intimidating and who can take the stage. And I think Messi's relatively poor form in the last couple of games has allowed other players to actually just take the mantle and be like, look, Leo's maybe overwhelmed with coverage or all the rest of it.

1:02:30Musa Okwonga: I've just got to go and do this. And the goal, the catharsis, the way the players celebrated that was revealing, not just because naturally eight minutes to go of a very tight tie. It was also like they knew. yeah that that seeing that would make me very afraid as you know a rival of theirs yeah i will say that look france and spain still have the juice yeah of the four teams left those two i think are they're clear and they say what i mean by that is and i said this before in the podcast i'll say again in front of you nish like the other two teams france and spain don't need any luck to in the world cup but england and argentina absolutely do yeah they need they need luck France and Spain, what they're going to offer, and we'll get to like Spain-Belgium actually just after this.

1:03:16Musa Okwonga: Those two teams have exhibited a level of control, both in attack, defence, but midfield as well to an extent that is beyond anybody else in the tournament. Should we go quicker to Spain-Belgium? Just a quick look at that.

1:03:27Ryan Hunn: Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing about Spain-Belgium, the winning goals between Marino and Bellingham were basically the same. Yeah. Yes. Shots from distance, following up. And actually, this is, I think, one thing I was thinking was just that in tight games like this, having people who are really, really good at shooting from distance and people following up is such a handy tool to do. Crash the box. Crash the box, man.

1:03:48Musa Okwonga: What made people so afraid to crash the box? What is it? Is it unseemly? Is it undignified? Is it beneath us in the current? Why are people not sniffing from eight yards out? I don't get it. I think it's just, I think it is having that timing, like that sense of when to, like arriving in the box because, you know, a number nine, you know, You'd expect Ayasabal or De Quetelara to naturally be sniffing around in there, but the centre-back often has a sense of the number nine's position, and it's why throughout the history of the game, the people that can time their arrivals, whether it's Lampard, Scholes, these players are invaluable to a team, and they can be invaluable in tournament football.

1:04:36We've already seen with Mourinho, that goal against Germany, that was Spain's toughest game of that Euros. And Spain was so palpably the best team at that competition. But the best team, France have absolutely been the best team at this competition and they're about to have their first, it is going to be a true challenge this semi-final. I can rarely think of an international match that I've looked forward to more than this semi-final. And there is going to be a moment where you were put under unbelievable pressure. And in that pressure and that crucible of tournament football, that is where it almost goes beyond your team structure and your individual players' technique.

1:05:21And it is going to be about somebody either making a mistake or somebody being able to time a run. And Spain was so brilliant in that Euros. But the key moment ends up being the fact that Marino can come into a game and read the positions of the defenders and know when to make his move into the box. And it's not a fluke. Like, there are people who are clearly... Like, if you think about how many goals Lampard scored that look almost exactly like that goal, you know, it's not luck for players like that. And, you know, that's why I think Dele Fuente said something like, I'll take Mourinho to the World Cup even if I have to carry them there.

1:06:01You know, like, he is so important to that team. I wonder if it maybe is a bit frustrating for Mourinho that he's still, he's not a starter, but at the same time, you know, he's already kind of written his name in the kind of, he's written his name on the history book, in the history books of Spanish football with what he did at the Euros. And it is so potent to be able to bring him on. I think for Spain, it's, I think if Spain can get Nico Williams back, that's going to be massive. That's the one, isn't it? Yeah. They need that.

1:06:34Musa Okwonga: They need him starting, really. Can I say this actually about, I love that you said on Mourinho. Let me just throw this in as well. I feel like he's a very different player to Fabregas, but I feel like he has the Fabregas role in this Spain team. Like Fabregas might have been frustrated to be on the bench. Having said that, Fabregas was self-aware to know enough that you don't start ahead of Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets. You just don't. I think Mourinho is also self-aware enough to know that if you look at all those midfield options, I'm probably the fifth or sixth option. And that's fine. What Marino has in common Fabregas is the ability to get right to the pace of a game.

1:07:12Musa Okwonga: And to understand what's happening. You could argue actually Bellingham and Marino defy analytics in the sense that the analytics of following up after shots from distance aren't in your favor. Most players will have had that coached out of them because that player is not going to mess that up there. In the same way that when John Stones is playing out in the back, there's no point pressing him because he's not going to mess it up. And the thing that Bellingham and Mourinho have is the decision to kind of defy the expectation and be like, actually, yes, all the analytics say that, but it's late in the game.

1:07:43Musa Okwonga: These players are tired. This player in particular, like Lammons, hasn't had like a good run at the ball yet. He hasn't really had to handle anything, right? So if that shot goes in, I'm going after it. And you see this at all levels of football. You see amateur football, grassroots. how often do you see in a grassroots football Sunday league someone shooting from like 40 yards after like five minutes and it goes in the top corner because the keeper's just not expecting it and I think that one thing I can give credit to Bellingham and Marino for is this kind of like it's a kind of Sunday league mentality I'm just going to go after everything yeah I'm going to gamble on everything I'm not going to stay within a sort of tactical concepts or a team tactical concept I've been sent in actually to find the solutions that other players in my position can't do i think that's what that is the unique genius of these players i think i felt for lamins you know having watched him all year he's done nothing approaching that you know he's been so calm his handling has been brilliant his decision making of when to catch when to punch everything he's done has been so so brilliant and i i i really hope that he this isn't sort of this i really i really hope that he's kind of young enough still that he's going to be able to shrug this one off because he is a brilliant goalkeeper and yeah I mean I think yeah it was and listen you know it just it depends on when you make the mistake you know Pickford has been a brilliant keeper for England and but the cross shot that he essentially pulls his hand away from in the Norway game could have been definitive I mean that's that's why being a goalkeeper is such a brutal way to make a living as a professional footballer you know it's yeah it you know we could be sat here talking about pick for taking his like pulling his hand away at the last minute and that's true you know we're now not talking about that and we are talking about san alamans you know so hard where he's had such a brilliant season for united he is the heir apparent to courtois on that belgian team so that i mean that's a that's enough pressure you know courtois been the best keeper in the world for the last half decade and you know you you it is it's really it it's a brutal brutal sport when it shines a light on because also Unai Simon was not having a particularly good game he was making some very odd decisions and Spain weren't to be honest no Spain after Belgium scored after Belgium scored Spain looked absolutely imperious until the Belgium goal which I think knocked them sideways.

1:10:15Musa Okwonga: They attacked a bit more actually after that goal but the energy, the swagger wasn't there and I also thought Della Fuente kind of got away with this because some of the selections I won't lie I found slightly strange. What was... I'm not here to question I'm not here to question like too much of his judgement but and I'm sure there were good reasons for leaving Pedri on the bench. I'm sure there were good reasons. I will also say this.

1:10:37Ryan Hunn: Fabian Ruiz scores the goal Pedri comes on and basically changes the game and helps create the second one so I don't that one I'm a bit like I'm all right with that.

1:10:44Musa Okwonga: I'm not saying that I get that. Fabrizio's great, don't get me wrong. But there were some players where you don't start Pedri and you don't start Ferran Torres. Okay, fine. But both of them, both of them, Baena over Torres, I didn't like that, actually. I didn't like it because you don't have the thrust. It's quite safe. One of them on the bench is fine, right? But two of them, and again, to come to my point, Pedri on the bench, I get it, because he knows what he's doing. but two of them against that Belgium that's just done that to the US and the US obviously are a level below and we won't get to the US anymore because they're out of the tournament and fine but I thought that those two players being absent I think weakened Spain quite significantly against a team that had a really high level if you gave them a look and I think as it proved to be honest as I was really impressed with Belgium like I did I did think through the game you know I was really disappointed i know it's hard because saibari is such a good player and obviously you've already talked about this so we don't want to return to it too much but i i get that saibari is such an important player for morocco but i was really disappointed with the meekness with which it felt like morocco went out the lack of ambition that morocco showed and obviously that's it's it's easy you know at the end of the day morocco have gone out 2-0 whereas it had they maybe gone for it more aggressively and left that amount of space for that front line they could have been absolutely you know it could it could have been murder you know it's like that we we watch teams park the bus have 11 players essentially on the goal line against spain for two years and we wondered why and then italy went for them in the final and lost four nil you know and like i think i think that game cassius was basically saying maybe we should keep maybe we should call it because so I'm not unsympathetic to that but I did think it was I did think Morocco really Morocco are a really really good football team and they've got a lot of really brilliant players and it was a shame to see them wilt and I think the one thing I would say I would definitely say Belgium did not wilt and they came at them and I think that when you look at it's obviously they're talking about the passing of this this is the sort of end of that golden generation this is probably the last we'll see of uh de Bruyne at a world cup Lukaku Courtois maybe even Trossard as well like the but uh you know if you look at De Kuyper if you look at Doku and if you look at De Ketelara there are reasons there are definitely definitely reasons for Belgian optimism um yeah and I was I I thought that they really they definitely definitely had a go and they really put Spain under quite a lot of pressure and I was I was enjoying the sort of Doku, Lamine, ding dong you know and like who's you know Doku kind of losing like not tracking Paro for the first goal I think is it was really interesting and then but then the way Belgium came back at them I thought it was yeah I thought it was just a really impressive thing like to Ketelara for a guy who kind of doesn't really play as a number nine but he's actually just tall that's not really his game he's done a pretty passable impression of a number 9 over the course of this tournament I think he's been

1:14:09Ryan Hunn: probably their best player in the tournament I think just in terms of what he's delivered as well so we've got the semi-finals set what do you think the final's going to be? oh my god really? my point is I think that anyone at this point saying that a certain team is definitively going to win the world cup i'm not sure about that to take it at face value and take the performances over the course of the tournament all of the logic suggests it's france england like over the course of the tournament because if you look at the way that france have attacked you look at spain at points having sort of slightly malfunctioning at points they haven't quite hit the kind of top level i think there's a number of reasons for that.

1:14:55I think Lamine not being fully fit has been an issue for them. I think that the absence of Nico Williams is massive because those two holding playing high and wide at the top of the pitch creates so much space for players like Olmo. They kind of, you know, the sort of classic brainy Spanish midfielder, it creates so much space for them to operate in because those two wingers are consistently stretching the play and they are just to go back to what you were He's been amazing, by the way. He's a brilliant player. But just to go back to what you were saying, Ryan, in the heat for a fullback, just being consistently pressurised in the way that, like the idea of just, like Laminemar just consistently running at you over and over again.

1:15:42So that's an interesting point. Like, is it going to be Dini? Is it going to be Tia Hernandez? Will, how is, because I guess the fact that they brought Kone off in that game suggests to me that Chumeni is not going to be fit. And Kone, I think, has done a really good job in that position. But he is... Phenomenal. Him and Rabia have got a lot of work on their hands restricting that space that Lamine is going to be cutting inside into. There's a huge pressure on the central midfielders to help the centre-back and the full-back because Lamine Imal is not a two-person winger. You can't put... He's a three-person winger.

1:16:20It takes a full back, the centre back and the six and the eight. That's how much it takes a village to raise a child. And it takes a village to stop this specific child from burning it to the ground. You know, like that's the issue with him. It's going to be so complicated for France. The thing that I just looking at the way that that Spanish team is set up and looking at Poro and Cucurella flying down those wings. and then just looking at that green, green space that they're leaving in behind them and thinking about Desiree Adoué and thinking about Osmond Dembele and then thinking about Michael Alisse.

1:17:01Alisse is taking the ball off the fucking centre-backs. Alisse is not playing like Mbappe in 2018. Alisse is playing like Zidane in 2006. He's not even playing like Alisse. three months ago he has turned up and decided that he's going to he's been workshopping his Zinedine Zidane impression and he's decided this is the tournament to turn up to it and the idea of Elisse picking the ball up off the centre-backs because it doesn't matter if you close him down you can't close him down he's gone, by the time you've got to him he's gone the pass that he Mbappe puts one over the bar that he should have scored from Morocco when I think he was still in his head about the penalty.

1:17:49But when you watch it, you have to watch Elisa slow down. You need the horse racing cameras like the Muhammad Ali punch because he pulls the ball in with his left foot and then immediately plays the through ball with his right foot. That is undefendable. It's the Martin Odegaard thing. It's the fucking prestige. He's showing you the trick and then he's taking it away from you in the second. Like that is the thing that I think, that's the thing that you'd worry about with France. is that the fullbacks pushing up the pitch versus the, and the thing that we know about those PS, the fear of going back to PSG training on day one and Luis Enrico saying, I watched a lot of the French games and I'm afraid to say you were not tracking back sufficiently so you've both been dropped for the whole season.

1:18:37So like the fear of that for Dembele and Douay and Barcola, I think that's where that's obviously where the game could be won for France, I mean it is, if Nico Williams plays I think it is a you know, I worry that I'm I'm worried about overhyping this game but it really has the ring of PSG Bayern, like it has the ring of that when you think about the quality of attacking players in the game and then also you think about like, you know, Rabiot has had a brilliant, brilliant, has had a quietly brilliant tournament you know and and and in and in the end like i feel like i'm obsessed with blaze matuidi but i sort of am because matuidi's role in the 2018 work matuidi and kante in that 2018 world cup are such an important part of why that that french team shouldn't work on paper and i think rabiot and kone has done brilliantly you know it's not easy filling in for too many because such a good footballer but yeah i i i i find it very difficult to call logic would suggest that it is a France-England final.

1:19:39But I think my gut is telling me, it's, my gut is saying Spain-Argentina. But that, I think that's partly because I'm overthinking it.

1:19:50Musa Okwonga: Can I say, that's the stylistic one. That's the final I think I would most like to see in pure football terms, right? Not emotionally, but in terms of the football, I would most like to see. That's the game I'd like to see most. What I would say is this. This is the first time I think since 1990 that the World Cup semifinals have both been either ongoing or historical beefs of the highest magnitude. That is, we haven't seen... Generational beef. Generational beef. We haven't seen it. Does that make sense? We don't have to... It's changed the name

1:20:25Ryan Hunn: of the tournament from now on. It's now renamed as the Coupe de Boeuf. This is beef wrap.

1:20:30Musa Okwonga: This is beef wrap. You're about to get your teeth capped. It is, man.

1:20:33Ryan Hunn: The Coupe de Doom.

1:20:35Musa Okwonga: Listen. it's the mf it's the mf cup from now on it is it is it is you're right man you're right i'm two two two amazing semifinals two amazing west germany england 1990 right as they then were west germany and then obviously italy argentina fucking hell the needle the head yeah exactly italy argentina maradona against let's be honest the nations the entire nation state of italy yeah and even a bit of naples if we're honest yeah the amount he was beefing even even a bit of Naples if we're going to keep it 100 and then you've got like in England Messi has not played against England yet yeah that's wild that's wild yeah unbelievable how he's managed to duck it he's been ducking beef it's been ducking his beef his whole life it is wild and then obviously France Spain I mean it's just so the needle in these games is what makes it so unpredictable because you don't know who's going to run hot you don't know who's going to come out afflicted by these beef and just be like I'm going to claim this

1:21:30Ryan Hunn: can I just say can we just think of the front pages if it's an England France final oh my god horrifying like Derby de la Brexit or something like that it's just going to be just oh no it's going to be they are just Napoleon against Churchill it's going to be awful it's going to be the discourse all time everyone's going to everyone's just going to get so carried away anyway

1:21:52Musa Okwonga: do you know who's going to pop out Nigel Farage is going to pop out he's got bigger things no Nigel

1:21:56Ryan Hunn: yeah I would say he's got to go to Clacton and get something he's got bin face to worry about

1:22:04Musa Okwonga: you can't beat bin face in a Brexit playoff you can't I would love it if he beats him I think yeah I mean it's the historic beefs are incredible the interlocking historic beefs but it is interesting because we obviously talk about you know Messi has achieved everything there is that you can achieve in the game, you know, multiple European Cups, then two Copa Americas, a World Cup. Has he achieved the one thing that he really needs to confirm his place as an Argentinian great, which is revenge for Las Malvinas? Has he managed to get... Is defeating England the final thing that he needs? In fact, I'll go further.

1:22:46Is it more important than winning a second World Cup?

1:22:50Musa Okwonga: To be clear, they were singing this in the dressing room. This is not just us. And again, look, we know that Las Malvinas, we know the context of the conflict, right? We're not excusing any of it. It's more that this is something they were specifically singing about. And again, this plays into the grievance culture, which is driving so much of this run. Like, oh man, Argentina, they disrespect you. That has not happened. All of this stuff has been confected. This is one of the biggest confected beefs and siege mentalities. A lot of people root for Argentina that maybe shouldn't because of Messi.

1:23:19Musa Okwonga: And like the demeanor, I'm just going to say this, of some of the individuals in that squad, it's not appealing to me. and having said that I've still rooted for them because of what Messi's achieved historically and because of some other players like Alvarez who I think are fantastic and I absolutely love and would love to see someone near my club but it will never happen it's never going to happen Nish we've just got to resign ourselves Alvarez he will never wear a United shirt and it's devastating it's a massive game for it's a massive game for Elliot Anderson just to go back I think it's a like for Elliot Anderson this is you know Moussa you were so right to single him out and he's been so brilliant but that space in the field and it's a massive game for him and Nico Riley as well because they are going to be policing the space in the field that Messi is going to want to occupy and yes and it would be worth them going back and reviewing because what Messi does to Guardiola in that game in the Croatia semi-final in 2022 is absolutely unreal you know and it's worth it gets caught in a cat's 100 % and it's worth reviewing that tape because you realise actually the age difference doesn't matter.

1:24:25Guardiola's about 12 years younger than him. It really is irrelevant and it's going to be about, it's going to be such a big test of Stones, Anderson and I guess Stones, Anderson and Nico O 'Reilly because that's the area of the pitch. And again, in the same way as Lamine, it isn't a job for a full-back, it isn't a job for a centre-back, it isn't a job for a six it's a job for all three of them and collectively shutting messi out of that game is is the thing that's going to define and you know someone like elliot anderson this is this is a moment for him like this is a moment for him to rise to and you know but that's where that game is going to be that that's where that game is going to be decided because i i think i think i don't i don't i think england probably will score against argentina you I think unless England completely malfunction as a team, which is also completely possible, it's the semi-final of a World Cup, there's huge pressure on them.

1:25:24But if England play to their level, if both teams play to their level, you struggle to see a way that England don't score against that Argentinian defence. I mean, if everyone plays to form, you struggle to see a way in which Romero leaves the field at full time.

1:25:41Musa Okwonga: Without a card.

1:25:43Ryan Hunn: It's going to be like Romero might go up full full Okwonga's journey right own goal equaliser red card oh man right before we before we let you go dude because we've we've kept you long enough you've got some well you've got you've got a very very important gig coming up very soon before the the tour yeah you're going to be joining us at the Southbank Centre which first of all thanks so much for doing this I can't wait I'm so excited it's going to be great we're going to be in the Purcell room and then you've got a tour yeah that's right I'll be all over the UK and Ireland from September to December with my show Angry Humour from a really nice guy which I think we can all agree is a deeply stupid title and I'm very pleased with it but yeah I can't wait for the South Bank Centre it's going to be it's going to be so fun we're going to well it'll be fun because we're I'm actually going to be held immediately accountable for the things that I've said like the stadium on stage on stage Nish look I could do some stuff in post but I can't do that we're all going to have hang on our face when England A don't score against Argentina and the World Cup is won by an inexplicably reinstated United States of America due to pressure from the president yes but tickets are on sale for the tour right yeah at nishkabar.co.uk and where can people get tickets for Stadio Live in the podcast description god damn it or on the Southbank Centre website.

1:27:14Ryan Hunn: Nish, thanks so much, man. This was a joy. Thank you very much. I'll see you guys on the 23rd of July. See you soon, man. See you then. Oh, man, that was fun. Always a joy, man. Always a joy. What a dude. Really looking forward to the Southbank. Cannot wait. It's going to be so fun. All right, everyone, we're going to leave it there for today. We're going to have two shows, short ones after each semi-final this week. So make sure you go and sign up to patreon.com forward slash stadio if you haven't already to get those and every other show we've done through the World Cup we're going to be back on Wednesday so until then don't forget to check the Stadio at Just Play Us on Spotify speaking of which playing out on Dazzle You by Dazzle anything you'd like to add

1:27:55Musa Okwonga: Moose Hawkewango? Just to say that Nish knows ball and it's a joy to talk football with him yeah listen

1:28:01Ryan Hunn: he knows ball alright everyone much love and have a great week back with you on Wednesday see you then

1:28:12You remind completely Don't be shy Come with me And you will see

1:28:30Ryan Hunn: Sweet harmony It may take a while

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