Ashes Extra: England’s Tactics, Stubbornness and the Pink-Ball Debate | Stick to Cricket

0:00Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners Betfair. Hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show. Geoffrey Boycott's line was... I think he's lying with something along the lines I can't take this stupid England team seriously anymore. It's the stubbornness. It's like, this was our plan, we're not deviating, we're going down with a ship. You're allowed to change your decision as the circumstances change. It's actually a strength to admit that you actually need to do something slightly different to what you planned for. It's going to be a long, long five weeks. That's what my gut's telling me.

0:29If you're losing two and a half days by eight weeks, it's kind of done. Two days, son. Two days. You've given another half a day. That's a lot. I completely understand the mental switch off and the life, but there's a balance and this feels completely off kilter. I think because of the colour of that ball, it's pink. It's different. So you never know with this England team. They have a great habit of turning things around and making you look stupid, so you go hard on them and then they turn around and win the next game. When we started mentioning the last turn was when they actually came in by belt.

0:58Planes hadn't been invented. We've got problems.

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1:18Phil, come on, sit down. Yeah, I'm coming. We're going all journalistic now. Oh, good. Come on, let's do it. I'm looking forward to this one. I'm Chief Cricket Writer for Coach Sports. Yep. Great to see you. Nick Holt, chief correspondent at the Telegraph. Or is that Will McPherson? No, that's Will. That's you. You're the boss. So Nick Holt is the boss of the Telegraph. Let's start with you, Dan. Australia's weak. How did you sum it up? Well, up and down. But I suppose, actually, down and up. Up and down and up. No, it finished well. It finished exceptionally well. I mean, if you'd said this was probably what the most vulnerable Australia was going to be, I would say when you go in without Pat Cummins and Josh Hazelwood, I think this was the one where they thought they might be gettable and there were long periods of that.

2:06Well, not long periods because there weren't any long periods in that test, but relatively long periods in that test where they were in serious trouble. But thanks to Mitchell Stark, Scott Boland in the second innings, Brennan Dogger did a good job too, then obviously particularly Travis Head and then with the help of Manus Lavashane, They got the job done and from 1-0 up in the Nashor Series, when you hold the urn and the other teams on the road, they're coming with a clear plan and it hasn't really worked. It's worked to a degree, but ultimately they're 1-0 down. That's the only way for Australia.

2:39They've got the prospect of Pat Cummins coming back. Do you think he'll play in the next game? I reckon not. No, I think they'll think about it. I thought he was a dead sir. I thought he was definitely banged. He was bowling all right the other day. Yeah, look, he's looking good in the nets. Yeah. Look, and they would say that the result doesn't make a difference, but I think you give him an extra couple of weeks, particularly when he's 1-0 up, why would you risk it? You know, the attack would look pretty good without him. Not perfect, but, and obviously makes a big difference. But I think particularly with the pink ball, he's less critical because the conditions, he's very good with the pink ball, but others can do the job.

3:18Whereas you wait to Adelaide for a day test where potentially it's a more conventional-looking test and he can bowl those bulk overs if needed. And what's your honest view of England, of what they delivered over the two days? Some of it was breathtaking, even with the batter times. There were times in that first innings where they threatened to take the game away. Clearly, Australia took regular enough wickets and then the tail collapsed. In the second innings, there was the middle order collapse from one to five or six. But there were moments where they certainly, Scott Boland looked all at sea on that first day.

3:52You see where it can all come together. And it's a bit like the basketball era from my view, and I'm interested in your perspective. You guys have seen more of it than I have. But, you know, they're not far away. They're not far away, but it was just the shot selection there on that second day was just baffling. And it just seemed a bit pig-headed. It's like you come to Perth, you know not to drive on the up. That's not to discount the bowling from Australia, But, and particularly when you come with an attack that's all guns blazing pace and then you don't give them enough time to bowl at full pace.

4:27And we saw the pace and the speeds were down in that second innings. So you can see the template and if it's refined, I think it can work. I think it'd be devastating, but it's a long way back from 1-0 down when you don't hold the urn. Haltie, I've seen a few pieces from back home. Generally, are the knives in? Mostly from former players like yourself. Yeah, and Geoffrey Boycott have certainly got more. Geoffrey Boycott's line was. I think he's lying with something along the lines, I can't take this stupid England team seriously anymore. So he wasn't pulling any punches there. I think we've seen this play out before, so we're going to hold back, I think, for a little bit because you never know with this England team.

5:08They have a great habit of turning things around and making you look stupid so you go hard on them and then they turn around and win the next game. It happened to me in India, actually. I remember halfway through that first test in Hyderabad, My day one report was over-promoted and undercooked, writing about Tom Hartley. And he took seven wickets. I learned my lesson there, so I'm going to be a little bit careful. What's your gut instinct feeling about this England side? You mentioned that they're quite a hard team to be a pundit against because they do do things that not many other teams have done in the history of the game.

5:44But what is your gut saying about how this plays out? My gut is telling me that we're heading for another pretty difficult few weeks and it's going to be a long, long five weeks. That's what my gut's telling me. It's so hard to come back in Australia. It's only happened once, actually. Since 1951. 71 years. And if you actually look at that test series, England picked the wrong team for the first game. That was Len Hutton's team. That was Len Hutton's team. So Godfrey Evans was ill. He couldn't play. Godfrey was that? Yeah, we go. We've brought him up for you. Did they take the boat there? They did take the boat there.

6:22When we start mentioning the last time was when they actually came in by boat. Planes hadn't been invented. We've got problems. It doesn't happen very often. So when you say, what's your gut telling you? And I've just mentioned Godfrey Evans. That makes you realise what my gut's telling me. It doesn't happen very often. But like you say, this team does do amazing. Yeah. Does do things that we don't expect. I think it was Australia adapted so much quicker and England just sort of stayed in the same mode, wasn't it? They learned their lessons quicker than England did. England have become a bit predictable, haven't they?

6:58You know how they're going to attack, you know how they're going to play. And Australia played on that. That first day it was like, here we go, here we go again, you know, it's like that. Then it was like, oh, here we go, because England have blown them away. And then the following day it was... What was your story in The Telegraph after day one? Because I know I wrote something, I was blown away with that attack. The best I've seen in Australian conditions. I thought, wow, and we've started to open a few cracks in this Australian team within a day. And a few hours later, I was like, oh, no, it's been hammered.

7:28It was exactly that. It was actually the team performance with the ball that was the story, wasn't it? I know Ben Stokes has this incredible habit of grabbing the headlines. Incredible. A bit like Stuart Broad used to do with the team. But no, it was actually that team. I'd never seen an Australian batting line-up reduced in the way that they were by pace for an England team before. That was the story. I mean, I think that's if you're looking for hope. We always do that. We've got to look for hope. There's hope which does kill you in the end. But there was times there, Steve Smith was scratching his head.

8:02And they had some... I was thinking, where can... They were 50 for four or something in the first innings. And they had a deep mid-off, a deep point. and do you know what I mean and I was like this is still not there's not a great look for an Australian side who on a pitch was doing it you know just England have to do it for longer like there's like the Harry Brook then feel at his mercy can he then just rein it in like they will put the field back to him and they think well actually I'll just knock it out but Brisbane now that bowling attack with the pink ball under lights England will be a nightmare to face as well we talk about Stark a lot yes he's got a brilliant pink ball record but just saying England bat as well as they can bat Joe Roo gets 100 and Brooke gets 100 and they get 400 and they bowl with Australia and pink ball suddenly again the whole thing's flicked very quickly I know there's lots of ifs and iss You get a sense that that is exactly it's going to have to happen England are going to have to win the toss and they're going to have to bat a lot better than they have done hitting Everything has to I sound like a stuck record because I think everything has to go to plan for him to win this series and almost at Perth after day one you're starting to think things are falling into place you'd look at it and go, if say after day one and then you fast forward eight weeks and England won the series and we sat back at home and we're saying, well, actually, it wasn't a great Australian side.

9:19Dog it. No, he's a good bowler, but he's not a world-class bowler. Weather all looked a bit scratchy. Do you know what I mean? There's a lot of things. There's people falling out. Smith a bit older. Kawaja, 38, didn't fancy the fight. Everything fell into place, kind of what he did in 2010-11. Then within 24 hours, that whole thing has been ripped up. I think this England side, I've seen a few England sides down under. If you're losing two and a half days by eight wickets, it's kind of done, isn't it? Two days, Phil. Two days. You've given them half a day. It's a lot. Sorry, I just… Give them a course of a gap.

9:51Yeah, but I think that I sort of agree with the old team of the Valleys. 140-0 is the game like that. Yeah, I know, but I can just… I don't necessarily think that that's the end of it. No. You know, this England side… Can. Yeah. I've always felt from the beginning, before coming out here, this was the one England team that I've covered that could actually bounce back from losing first test in Australia. They've got so much belief in the way they play. Yeah, and just on that, you're looking at the leadership of Ben and Baz, it has taken England on this journey that we've never seen before. The next 10 days could define their leadership, how they get this team from what we've seen here.

10:28They can have as many psychologists as you want, and they've got a really good one from New Zealand. It will be a psychological, as much as they need to work on techniques and a bit of the game plan awareness. It will be a psychological kind of deliverance in the next few days from the leadership to try and get them back into some kind of state of confidence going into Brisbane. You've been skipper, you've been skipper. How do you do that? What do you do? My method would be to individually talk to players. I mean, a team room full of everyone. Yes, you have your meeting, but I would individually sit down with every single player and try and get them to individually realise what they need to do and how they need to get and everyone will be different and what does those individuals need to make sure that when they get to Brisbane, you know, they are in a confident state of mind or in a very clear mindset of what their role is and how they can deliver that role.

11:24I also would personally, and I know the planning would be to not play the two-day pink ball game. I'll keep going over it. sometimes you have to change. Sometimes you can't be so stubborn, this is what we do, this is what we decided upon and we're sticking to it because if we go against what we said before, it looks like we're weak. Well, it's not. You've said it in the other show. It's actually a strength to admit that you actually need to do something slightly different to what you planned for. You've got to be adaptable when you bat, when you bowl, and you've got to be adaptable as a leader.

11:55And I think this is one of the best cases, I think. If they go there and they don't go there, they just open themselves up for totally and utterly unnecessarily criticism if he goes around in Brisbane. I know they definitely want to stay together. They're talking about staying. That's one of Baz and Stokes' greatest strengths is the unity of this squad. But at some stage, you do have to do some really hard yards. And I'm putting... So the hard yards, unfortunately, is everyone goes to Canberra. It's not the best... They've got courses in Canberra. Sometimes you've just got to read the room. Yeah, read the room.

12:28If they'd lost the first test, four days, five days, then you can understand why they're perhaps going to play that warm-up game, clearly. But losing in two days, bowed out the way they were. I think the bats need a game, need more preparation. I saw it, I think, from Jonathan Agnew. He said, if they don't go and play the two-day pink ball game and it goes bad for them in Brisbane, well, you start thinking about people's positions within the management group. Because they've made the... And I've said for a number of times with you, Holti, you judge the team on the end result and they go about preparation, the game in which they play, completely different to any of our teams and you judge them on that at the end.

13:08Now, judgment time could come earlier. You know, if it goes really bad for them in Brisbane and they've not played the two-day game, you know, I think Aggers would be right. You know, there will be some serious questions asked about the leadership group. It's funny. I mean, Ben was saying, he seemed quite adamant, didn't he, that they wouldn't go and do that. but when Brendan spoke to the Britain press, he was a little bit more, we haven't got a solid position on it. Again, just after the game, what happened, the shock of that four hours, as a captain then, to then go, you know what Stokes is like, he's the most competitive person I've ever met.

13:41Like, losing hurts him. I know when he first took over as captain, he said, I don't care about the result. That was just a bluff. That was just trying to ease pressures off him. I asked him about that. I was like, mate, you can't lose a game of table tennis. And yet you're telling me in the media that it doesn't matter whether we lose the draw, it was about how we play. And he said, mate, that couldn't be further than the truth. So you have to take that a little bit with Stokes. That hour after play, you know, like that 48 hours, he's just experienced, plus the build-up. We've all been there to play in Ashes, been there as a captain.

14:14It's an incredibly hard place to be. And he would have been like probably emotionally all over the place. So that interview, like you kind of have to, I'm going to have to a little bit like... Well, I actually fell for him when he walked off and I've seen many captains and I've been one and you have. And when he walked off to shake the Aussies hand, he was in a lonely space. And actually, Joe Root ran up to him and gave him a little bit of a, you know, a little bit of a, not that Ben Stokes needs hugging, but it was, it was a little bit of an arm around the shoulder from Joe. I've been here mate, you know, we can get through this.

14:44So like for the next period, you know, you're talking about what they should do. Like one of McCollum's great strengths as that man-manage, of that reaffirming of what they need to do themselves. It's been a disaster that last four hours, but they've got the next 10 days to reaffirm how good a player they are, all that kind of stuff you have to go and do. I don't see this one the harm in batting under pressure. You cannot hide away from pressure, and the Ashes cricket away from home is probably the heightened most pressure you go into. It's a cauldron, look at this stadium, it's incredible. and the bris the gavel's the same it's on top of you and when the momentum goes against you i think this part of the world with the crowds here is the hardest place to stop stick to cricket is brought to you by betfair

15:37if australia went with this approach in england having gone one nil down how would you react to an australian journalist oh you'd be scratching your head i i mean i think it just it shows if Unless they change, it suggests that they're just so stubborn. It's the stubbornness. It's like, this was our plan. We're not deviating. Even if we're going down with a ship, you're allowed to change your decision as the circumstances change. Maybe they thought that was the right way to go. Had the test gone five days, different question, but it's gone two. They batted for 68 overs combined. So from an Australian perspective, if this was their approach, say it was a tour of England, and you get a week between tests, or more, sorry, 12 days, and you had a week between training sessions, you'd be thinking, what are they doing?

16:18I mean, I'm not saying that you're allowed to, you can't be training all the time. I completely understand the mental switch off and the like, but there's a balance and this feels completely off kilter. You've got a chance to go play two days of cricket against a good Prime Minister's XI team. This is not, because I know the knock on tour matches is you're playing clubbies and that. This is a good Prime Minister's XI team. It's got Sam Constance who played test cricket this year. Nathan McSweeney played test cricket last year. Campbell Kelleway, who's a very promising young Victorian, who's being spoken about as a potential test cricketer.

16:48You've got Peter Siddle, who's still playing professional cricket 41. I know people will laugh. He's 41. He's still going very well. There's some good players in that team, so they'll get a good test. And I think you compare it to the Lila Kill conditions, which were clearly the bounce, just didn't prepare them at all for here. I mean, it was whatever they got to hit out. Even if it's not necessarily a test-quality attack, you're still conditioning yourself to this. To the pink ball. It's a very different thing. Yeah, it's a different ball, and that's both batting, bowling, and field. You're the man of reason with this.

17:17You're a pro. You were renowned for your professional approach to the game. And prep. I always had a bowl, Mark. You did. What would your advice be to the England side this week? It's difficult, isn't it? I think because of the colour of that ball, it's pink. It's different. Listen, you know, I mean... What's the harm in it? Absolutely. What's the harm of it? On the flip side of that, if England had won that game, which they could have done, you'd still probably go and have a bat against the big ball, wouldn't you? Yeah. Wouldn't you? I agree. And then because they've lost, I don't think that really comes into it.

18:03You know what I mean? Go and have a little knockabout with it. And if they don't hold it, I guess you guys will be writing some quite strong stuff. I think so. Well, as you said earlier, it'd be result dependent. If they then collapse badly and lose the next test, then it's going to be one of those sticks that are going to be used to beat them. I guess the bowlers, it's okay for them to stay in. You'd want them to stay in Brisbane because you want them to attune to the heat and humidity rather than go to Canberra because it's 33 degrees in Brisbane. It's freezing here, but it's 33 degrees there.

18:32So you'd want them to stay there, but the top seven, top six... Go and have a knock. Why would the bowls not go to Canberra and bowl? Well, if you remember 10-11, when you guys stayed in Hobart and you were scoring big hundreds, what were the bowlers doing? They were preparing in Brisbane. I know exactly what they were doing, they weren't bowling in Brisbane. They were meant to be bowling in Brisbane. Holt, you wrote a book about Basbord. Yes, still available. Doing great guns over here. Yeah, I mean, it's an intriguing book about this change and this way of playing. With that, do England need to read a different book and change the way that they're playing to try and compete down here?

19:18Only one player asked for copies. I'm not sure they've actually read the book anyway, but I think they have to stick to the way they play. Just do it better. Just refine it a little bit more. A little bit like we saw them in the summer at Edingly. You know, that run chase against India. When Duckett and Crawley adapted and they played brilliantly. And Bruma. They played Bruma in the summer. Yeah, they did. They played them out. It was like... All the pitches won't be like this, will they? They're all spicy. They're all... Maybe Adelaide would say it would be the best to bat. Yeah. They won't be as bouncy as this.

19:52No. It's the classic perfect. But they'll be nibble, won't they? Yeah. Nibble in Brisbane, Adelaide, I think that's the best of the wickets to get big scores on. And then Melbourne and Sydney, I mean, the last two times I've seen it. Particularly Sydney. Adelaide's hard to know because so many of the recent tests there have been day night. There's only been a handful of day tests there in recent years. One of them actually was over in seven sessions against the West Indies. So yeah, if you enjoy days off, this is the tour for you. I think a lot of interviews to do. I mean obviously three days off for the likes of me, Kat and Cookie we have a few long lunches.

20:32What happens to the journos? Well there's we have stuff lined up there's stuff features that we've got planned interviews. The appetite back home is huge. I mean the numbers for the first test were massive for us even though it was only two days It was a big story and people still really interested and want to read it. So, yeah, it's just lining up features and digesting what happened and trying to start to throw forward. Do you still get a player every day? Because that was the kind of thing on our tour, that every day a player would give me a deal. We didn't yesterday and we're not today. So, no.

21:06So, no. That has actually tailed off a little bit in the last couple of years under Baz and Ben, which is fine. makes you think a little bit harder about what you have to do. Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. I mean, Dan, back to you. After day one, I saw a headline, I don't know which paper, about Usman and the Mulligan. I think it had Mulligan on the front page and in playing golf. Where are you at with Usman-Cawadra and what happens to Usman? Now, Travis has obviously gone to the top of the order in the second he's played great. Do you see Travis staying at the top or do you think Usman will come back in this fit?

21:48Well, I think, first of all, the golf's got to be distinguished. I'm not... Look, the golf, if things had gone completely awry and we've been looking like that for a while, I can see the criticism, particularly when he played golf three days in a row, but by the same token, Mitchell Stark played golf the day before and went pretty well. So I'm not going to hang them over the golf. In terms of Usman and his position in the team, though, I think... I don't think they should go with him. whether he's fit or not. And Andrew McDonald, the coach, spoke to media a few hours ago and said that having further investigation is to make sure there's nothing more serious than spasms, just to see if there's an underlying cause of it because he hasn't had spasms in the past.

22:28Andelman has been an outstanding player for Australia. I don't want to stress that. But he's almost 39. He's had now consistent issues against quality fast bowling. We saw it against Boomer. Now, Boomer's the best. so that's no disgrace. We saw it against Shemar Joseph. We saw it against Rabada in the World Test Championship final. We've now seen it and it was a brutal ball from Brydon Kass. And I know he was batting down the order and obviously things hadn't gone well with the back. But they've shown the possibilities with Head at the top. And I know Head's had an excellent record, number five.

23:03But I think it's just so disruptive for England to be bowling to Travis Head. It forces them into a different mode of attack. How are they going to get this guy out? Are they going to try and nick him off? Are they going to try to go the short ball tactics to him early? It's just, whereas when you're going against Khawaja first up, you're thinking, yeah, just, well, you're going to get the body. But also, you know, there's not going to be that much pressure put back on you because he's just not that sort of player. Certainly not anymore. Settling that a game a bit, can't you? Yeah. Get your turn rhythm.

23:31So who would be the replacement for this one? Would you just go Bo Webster for it? Or would you bring in Josh English to bat it far? I mean, there's an outside chance they could drop Khawaja down the order. I don't think they would, and I probably wouldn't. Look, Webster's, and I think it goes to a broader point about Nathan Lyonspot heading into the next test. If he's going to bowl two overs, no, no, that's extreme. And the last, of Australia's last eight non-Asian tests, he's bowled 10 overs or fewer in four of them. They barely use him. And you're not picking him for his batting. So I think if it's just, if you go with the same attack, or say Cummins comes back to Doggett, I think you can, you're probably picking Webster.

24:10But I think there's something to be said for looking at, say, Inglis in for Khawaja and Webster in for Lyon. It's a very different looking team, but these are different circumstances. I've said that on our... If you go Head, Wetherald, Marnus, Smith, Inglis, Green, Carey, Webster, say Cummins, Stark, Boland, I look at that element and go, how the hell did you beat that? Deep. In these conditions, how do you beat that side? The batting's miles deeper, bowling options are all there, and you've got an aggressor at the top, you've got an aggressor at five. I was like, that for me is the danger for England, is that this was their chance.

24:50They had the best team for these conditions, and Australia had a weaker team, and they'll only get stronger. And England potentially will get a little bit weaker because they're going to have to rotate the bowlers over the course of the next four games. That's my concern for the England side. I've never seen Australia, apart from 10 and 11, could argue a couple of Indian series down the back end, but they generally get stronger across a series. They don't get... They don't kind of slacken off. No, no. And England, if anything, sometimes do, don't they? They start pretty well, England, don't they?

25:25Apart from here. Well, they did a little bit. They started well. They did start well. The first four... That's the frustration. That is the frustration. For the first four sessions, if you'd have said before a ball had balled on day two here in Perth, you're 100 ahead in the second innings, one wicked down, I reckon you're buying that for a few little. You're going, I'm having that all day long. And if they prove right as well about their preparation, is that what happened? Absolutely. They made their point. All right, what's going to happen in Brisbane? You guys, you're going where? From here on in?

26:04I'll go back to Melbourne where I live and then I'll be off to Brisbane next week, Tuesday, a couple of days out. Halty, where do you go from there? Do you go to Brisbane? I'm going to Brisbane on Wednesday. Right. Not going to Canberra? Not going to Canberra. I think Will's going to Canberra. Shouldn't you prepare to cover pinball cricket? Yeah, I've got a couple of things lined up feature-wise. I have to go. Have you? So, Brisbane can't talk about it. Secretive interviews. I like that. One way of doing this, isn't it? Yeah, not giving it to me. Thank you. Cheers, Dan. No, thanks. Thanks for popping in.

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