Jonathan Trott: Coaching Afghanistan, Winning the Ashes and England Lions Job! | Stick to Cricket: EP 65

0:00Michael Vaughan: Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. Hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

0:30That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average.

1:09See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

1:54M-I-D-I dot com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. Shaq here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100 % online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shaq. Hey, have you always been so big, tall, and handsome? Not always. I was 6 '10 once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shaq. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today. on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven day return policy at caravana.com.

2:30Michael Vaughan: All right, H. All right. Stop them. Morning.

2:39Michael Vaughan: Morning. You like mini cheddar? I love mini cheddar. Yeah, I love them. Great, aren't they? Love mini cheddar. Have you had them with the bacon ones? Do I need to... I've put my jacket on. Am I happy with that? Is that all right? Good. Look at this maker, this. It's nice. It's... Oh, I need you. You'd nicked that shot, didn't you? You'd achieved it, didn't you? I've never... Is it because... Never in my eye. Has it now stopped because of it? I've only borrowed it. We used to have a rail, didn't we? Yeah. Is that because it's all gone? Have you nicked it all? No. I haven't. We used to have... It's a nice jacket, though.

3:11Michael Vaughan: To be fair, Mike, I... Trotty! How are you? There you go, there's your chair. How are we going? Didn't recognise you in the green room. Tough stuff pass, innit? majorca so we've got dazzler oh yeah all good he's always in majorca all good okay good summer yeah not too bad pretty busy you've been what did i see on the balcony afghanistan for morgan yeah yeah doing a bit of consultancy there with with dawson uh halves down in glamorgan obviously i started uh doing a couple of months off i had last summer and i did a bit worked on there and obviously ended up team who is it your doorbell oh it's all it's not to answer it answer it please ask him what's going on at Lancashire we're just in the middle of a show here

4:07how did you go on in the medal on Saturday a very accomplished 89 gross which it's not stopped talking that he comes second what's the gossip somebody called ryan gigs come first bumble ask him how you're going to do in division three just just ask him all right

4:23Michael Vaughan: superstars competition is involved with langs we've just said we've got a very good coach at the end of the table yeah you need a new coach he's won't it'll all be edited out but uh jonathan trot wants to be the new coach it's jimmy stuff mate i think he is he was at the golf club yesterday I think he is. Good. All right. Why? Just make sure you keep that calling. What kind of show have you got here? Well, it's loose. Where are you going? Where are you going? Where are you going to be? Have you got a big meeting today? Yeah. Big meeting. How many meetings are you having at that club? I thought you were not involved.

4:59I'm not involved. Jimmy Anderson, I'm playing next year. I want... No! I want five underground a year. Yeah.

5:07Darren Gough: 250 bags. How old is he now? Is he 45 yet? the club run the club haven't they these players i know they just can't let go okay just get out of the way bumble do like we do just keep out of it keep going come on i've got them you just keep sexing yeah well we'd carry on how old do you have to be when you're just tight with one finger well how what's the stats i'm i'm just on the verge of that do you know there's a do you know you can

5:30Michael Vaughan: just press the bottom you know the voice note no i don't so you can press it no and i don't know anything about you say what you're trying to tell i'm 97 it goes as a set me alone Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. So just hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

5:53Michael Vaughan: You did interview for the head coach of England. You said before you got to that interview stage that you wanted to coach England. Is that still the goal for in the future? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Did you hit Wahab with a pad in the next session? Yeah, I did. and when we go to the West Indies I want us to go there and I want us to win. How did the Lions job come about? Well I interviewed for the main job.

6:15Darren Gough: With his big floppy hat on, shirt off, belly out and he said I'm staying here and getting some sun.

6:21Michael Vaughan: What's it like when you coach Afghanistan against England?

6:24Darren Gough: Is he a skipper? Oh, Kukul Smith can be quite a sneth. Or Sanger Kaira. Okay, Pete. Yeah.

6:32Michael Vaughan: Well done, Charlestown. I saw Pat Cummings speak very highly of you. He said you were the hardest batter to bolt him. Did he really? Yeah, did you? Was he drunk? We go three T20s and five ODIs. Oh, good trip. Do you need a bowling cut? No.

6:50Michael Vaughan: Trotty coaching this summer, you've had a bit of good, Morgan. He's had a bit of Belgium. He did.

6:55Darren Gough: Played one game and won... Well, two games, he won it. Yeah. What do you mean he played two games? So we had about four or five rain down, then we won... So he just won two? But he kept getting a point. He kept getting a point. They kept getting rained off. And they had a good side, by the way. But they kept getting rained off. And they kept getting a point. So they ended up getting to a final on rained off games and then played a genie in the final. They were there, weren't they? Who's your skipper? Who was on your team? They had a good side. I don't remember. Harper from Australia. Who? Harper.

7:26Sammy Harper. Good player. Good player, yeah. There were some good players. And I think we actually did... There was a bit of rain. and then we ended up winning one or two group games and then we won the semi, won the final. So I think we won four or five games. Another trophy, isn't it? Yeah, it was right. Good stuff.

7:39Darren Gough: Your captain was South Africa skipper, wasn't he? Yeah, Temba. He was there. We had some decent players and obviously it was sort of an inaugural tournament so there was a few challenges here and there. What do you mean challenges? A few challenges. I think sort of the organisers thought that both teams could travel on one bus to the ground so we ended up sitting with bags on the back. Yeah, for sure. After the game? After the game, same bus, steering a bus. And we were in an airport hotel, which wasn't ideal. I will be honest, that was a bit disappointing, wasn't it? Yeah, but the ground was in between Brussels and Antwerp, so we were sort of stuck in between.

8:14But it was good.

8:15Michael Vaughan: When you go into coach one of these franchise teams, what is it that you first do? Obviously, you've got to introduce yourself, but what are you trying to put in place when you first go in there? Well, it's tricky, and that's, I think, the challenge for any franchise coach, I think, is getting that sort of time right the lead-up time is very short and the amount of time you have with players and how much impact you can have as a head coach so for me i've i've had a few opportunities and learned a great deal from that it's very different to coaching aside where you sort of 11 12 months of the year doing it and you sort of create those relationships i think as a as a coach certainly as a young coach like i was you sort of quite you sort of rush in there and you want to build these relationships you have you have all these sort of ideas and ideologies that you want to apply.

8:59But in theory, it's very tricky unless you're there for a number of years and you get the same players back. So for me, it's about just seeing what fits at that time and sort of adjust as a tournament goes on. I think sometimes, certainly nowadays with players, when they come into a franchise, because they're playing so many and they're all so different, if you come in and you have all these ideas, you know, you hit them with three or four different ideas, I think you can get a little bit of pushback from players.

9:27Darren Gough: Well, they don't like practicing some of them, do they? That's the biggest thing I've noticed. There's a misconception, I think, in that. I think some players want it, but then it's practice. And there's a lot they don't, though, I know. And there's some who go around who play 12 months of the year franchise where they sort of have different owners, different types of coaches, and they, well, this franchise I played really well and I didn't practice, so I don't want to practice at this franchise type thing. So, as a coach, where do you sit with that? What are you hard on? What do you sort of let go a little bit?

9:53And I think experience as a franchise coach, you get to be very clear on actually this is what I stick to and this is what I sort of let go. Whereas a younger coach perhaps you sort of come in and you say this is what I want to do and you're quite strict on that depending on your character. Do you bring people with you? Are you like a football manager? When you go into a franchise you've got your batting coach, your field bowling coach, you bring the baggage, team trot. Mourinho does and just brings his own men. No, I don't think so. But I think you have coaches that you know you get on well with will always challenge you.

10:26I'm the type of coach, I quite like having ambitious coaches around me. And I'll tell you why. Because if you get specialist coaches, a batting coach or a bowling coach, then you watch the batting. I want coaches around me watching all aspects of the game. So if the batting coach sees something from his perspective with regards, it can help the bowlers. You know, I want that communication and openness. And all facets of the game. But I also want coaches to be ambitious and go off and then be head coaches elsewhere. because then they watch the whole game. And then they build their own ideas as they're becoming, you know, candidates to be a head coach elsewhere.

11:02So for me, I like that side. And I have seen coaches, and the amount of times I have done franchise coaching now as opposed to what I saw, I'm thinking of a better word, but team coaching where you're in and around, is I think franchise coaches generally stick to their discipline and they don't try and step on anyone else's toes just through, you know, being accountable then. Self-reservation. A little bit of that. And I've certainly felt that as well in recent franchises when you sort of lose two or three games and you get the skids a bit, you sort of feel the coaches retreat and just look after their own individual responsibility.

11:39And not only players, sometimes it happens, but certainly coaches, which I'm not a big fan of, to be honest.

11:45Michael Vaughan: Do you have a formula that you kind of take into T20 cricket as if this is kind of set up of the team that I always go for? Are you just very adaptable to the conditions? I think you have your ideas, but you also look at the players that you've got and what would fit with that. I think, again, I've done that in teams where I've said this is what I... This is... When you look at the tournament, you do a little history and you do some statistics and you say, well, if we're 55 after the power play, that gives us a great chance in these conditions. But, you know, if you go to the Big Bash, I'm sure it's different to ILT20 to SA20.

12:16So as a coach, I've done that before and I've said, well, if we're 55 or 60 after the power play, generally here in these conditions, you won 60 % of your games or if you're 55 for one. And I've had meetings where players go, I don't think we should talk about wickets and all those sorts of things. So you can be as prepared and as accurate as you like, but with different characteristics, different nationalities, different languages, as a franchise coach, I think the better coaches adjust to what's going on and how they react in certain situations to the character, but also the cricketer and the sort of team that they have in front of them.

12:55What coach do you kind of model yourself on?

13:01Darren Gough: You've obviously got your own traits in there as well, but is there a coach you look up to and go... What are your traits, Coach? I knew you would bring that out. You know what I mean, though. I mean, is there a coach... You're selling somebody like Martin O 'Neill, football. Brian Clough, he looked up to Brian Clough, right? And that's the way he did it. So is there a coach you think I'm that sort of coach and I'll take a lot of his model into the way I do it or are you just yourself? What I try and do and as I was as a player I didn't try and model myself on anyone but what I tried to do was I just ended up with a mishmash of stuff was I liked and take certain strengths and weaknesses and stuff like that or I see and I try and create something from that if you like so I think I've been very fortunate, I've had some fantastic coaches that I've watched and even as a player, as a youngster, because I grew up and my dad's been a career coach and still is a career coach at the age he is I've always had that side of the game and the love for the game and what comes with it, the ups and downs and the relentlessness of it as a sort of coach I tend to enjoy still being in the dressing room and having that environment and feeling but you know Bob Woolman had a big impact on me as a youngster obviously growing up in Cape Town John Inverity sort of Ashley Giles and Flower so yeah these guys have had huge impacts on my career and I've tried to maybe take a few things that I've seen in their styles but I think as a coach you're always evolving aren't you in any walk of life or any sort of career how did the Lions job come about Well, I interviewed for the main job, obviously, from the back of that.

14:49Oh, got you. Alright, OK. So that's how it came about. And it's interesting and exciting at the same time. Dealing with the younger players, the next generation, it's not lost to me how important that role is. When you have a chance to have an impact on their career. Do you feel that you'd benefit from coaching a county team? I think any coach would benefit from coaching a county team. I've had the last couple of years I've been in the international game and I've really enjoyed that and I enjoy the pressures and the sort of decision-making in international cricket and what international brings.

15:29It's different to county cricket. If the right county came along or if it's fitted at the time. What do you mean the right county came along? Well, it's fitted where I want it to be. So your Lions role is just for the winter? Well, yeah, they said obviously 12 months. But I said, well, why don't we see how the winter goes? We'll obviously come April time. There's a huge gap until I think it's July, August where, you know, and as a Lions coach, you don't do a great deal. But I want to do a really good job this winter so that they say, well, you know, whatever the future looks like, it's done.

16:08Darren Gough: So keeping your options open, which is the rising point. But I think at the time with the role it comes with sort of there's a few gaps where the you know ECB have said It's a sort of consultancy role and you can go off and do you know a franchise here There and I they were quite specific in that in that you know If you want to go off and do that and further your career as a coach You know the opportunity is there for as long as it fits in here our dates for the tours and here are training schedules at Bluffboro and these sorts of things So it's you know the winter is busy But it's also exciting that the places we go and I think the cricket is we gonna have

16:39Michael Vaughan: So you've got... There's quite a focus on 50 over cricket, isn't there, with the World Cup next year. What does the winter look like for the Lions programme? So there's a West Indies trip. End of October, we go three T20s and five ODIs. Oh, good trip. Yeah. You need a bowling cup? No.

16:57Perfect T20 batting coach, come on.

16:59Darren Gough: Social manager. I could tip the lads up. T20s. Logistical manager. T20s. And, um... No, you guys... Oh, wow.

17:10But we got that, so that's three and five ODIs. And then we come back for four or five days and we go to South Africa for a month. Right. Do you get a pick? I won in South Africa. That is three ODIs and two four-day games. I won in South Africa. Experience. Do you get a Sayinu goals? Players or coaches? Players. Yeah, I obviously have an input, but I think a lot of that depends on who selected, you know, with the main side before. And then we also have a little bit of guidance on who they would like to be playing and available. So the South Africa trip, the two four-day games are around the same time as the first and second test match or just before the main side.

17:59So they're in a little bit of form. It's really tricky as well for the main side and the Lions because they're those ODI games in Australia before they go to South Africa. So do they want the players playing the ODIs or the T20s? And I suppose franchise as well. Because if you get a player who you want to come on the Lions and see him, but they get offered 200 grand to go and play, and let's just say the Abu Dhabi T20, I don't know when they are. Would you then negotiate with them? Is that not really your role? Is that Marcus North's role? I think that's Rob Key and Marcus North's role, what they see the benefit of that and whether the player features in any of the plans and that's their sort of communication i think rob has been quite open in letting guys go do franchise cricket and sort of evolve with the times if you like whereas previously it's been quite sort of no

18:46Michael Vaughan: you've got to choose between lions and well it's quite hard isn't it for a player because you know i think it's the ilt 20 on the same time it's going to you know a player's going to get x and it's going to be a downside more than the lions program can you know pay them for that what four window in South Africa so it's bloody hard picking up back in our day you're like there's no other option was it you are the playing club cricket in

19:06Darren Gough: Australia or South Africa exactly well you played to get on an air tour didn't you yeah that's pretty if you come getting the main score you were desperately on the air tour well your ambition comes into it as well where your ambitions as a player to play test match cricket this is a stepping stone or or also you might have done a line but it's changed though now it used to be the next best players now it's not you could have done a line's tour last year when I go to franchise this year. If you develop your England career through the Lions and the senior side, your franchise will take care of itself down the line surely.

19:37Darren Gough: Okay, so Troy, do you see this as developing players or you're in charge of looking after the next players that are going to be playing for England? Because that's what we're kind of talking about, isn't it? But in our day, it was the next best players. So they were straight into the England team if they were an injury. Now it's not. You might get a few under 19 players in there like we had Rocky Flint off there You might get your moors in there. You might get a few of the guys mayors So you might get them sort of players with the next best ones in so how do you see the role? Well for me my vision with the Lions in this winter You know it's very very clear on when we go to the West Indies I want us to go there and I want us to win All right, so I want to pick it the best side to go and able us to win whether that fits in with three or four youngsters who will develop and we identify with fantastic talent, but along with the sort of main side and what will fit with their schedule as well.

20:33But I think every time you pull on a shirt with three Lions on it, whether it's under-19s, Lions in the main side, you're there to win for me and you're there to perform. So I want, whether it's their first Lions trip or their third Lions trip, whenever we come in, whether you're playing and you feel comfortable with the people that you played with before, whether you're a new guy. It's our job as coaches to get guys ready. When they're put on the shirt, they're going to win and expect it to perform with a test debut or your ODI debut. So we want to create that environment and that sort of mindset, certainly from the Lions, because for me, Lions cricket, I had two tours with the Lions, and it was hugely beneficial in my development.

21:14Where did you go? We went to India. We played in the Dalip Trophy, which was a massive eye-opener. you know playing spin and what year was that end of 07 yeah and and then the next year we went to New Zealand which is obviously you know contrast so I got my month and from personal experience I debuted for T20s in 07 you play T20 there you go that was that rubbish that nobody remembers and I then had the next sort of 18 months changing my game and it sort of actually Jarsic over at Warwickshire, changed my game, had two Lions tours, and then got my chance August 2009. And I feel a hugely changed cricketer with regards to being ready for international cricket from what I sort of felt in 2007 to what I felt in 2009 was very different.

22:09So I see that role, this Lions, in creating, giving players an opportunity to go on and be, you know, the cricketer A they want to be, but also we can produce cricketers that can go straight into the test side, ODI, T20 side, and feel comfortable and perform straight away.

22:29Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair.

22:36Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

23:13You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

23:54Shaq here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100 % online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. can't wait to take it for a spin only the best for you mr shack hey have you always been so big tall and handsome not always i was 6 10 once seven days delivered or returned mr shack not that i would you never do no i never do so buy your car today on caravana delivery fees may apply see our seven day return policy at caravana.com 75 of women who seek menopause care don't receive it the lying awake at 3 a.m wondering what's happening to your body ends now midi is virtual care built for women in perimenopause and menopause with clinicians who specialize in women's health.

24:39Plus, it's covered by most major insurances. Getting started is easy. You can book your first visit with a clinician right away. Midlife needs MIDI. Visit joinmidi.com to book your first visit today. That's joinmidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

24:58Michael Vaughan: When you were interviewed for the main job, I think you've obviously been interviewed by the ECB, haven't you? Yeah, yeah. Which was for the selector, which we are different. What kind of questions or what do you have to prepare for that interview to, because I hear you came across great and that's all the noise from the ECB. What was it that you had to prepare and what were the questions that you were put with? Well, when I went into the interview, there's a few things I want to get across. A, you know, be myself, but also B, the observations that I had watching the game or the games over the last couple of years and where I felt work was needed and what could be done in a short space of time and Ashes next summer and a difficult tour against South Africa.

25:45And then obviously Bangladesh, I think, is going to be tricky. Those test matches are going to be tricky. So you've got a very contrast of conditions. But you're also going to then probably see a different range of players as well, more spurt in Bangladesh, obviously, than you would in the others. so you need to be very clear on what you're going to do you know from the get-go and I put that across and just you know gave you know thinking back to thinking back to the two to the things that I sort of when I prepared you know England in the last 12 months batters one to seven are number one in the world with regards to but if you take out Brook and Root and you have and you take out the best two batters in the other nations, we're seventh.

26:28So my work would have been not obviously Root and Brookie, keep them going, but the other five we need to nail. And I also feel if you go into an Ashes, you need to know, if you don't know you're 11, you need to know at least 10 of who's going to be going. And they need to have played together and gelled as a side. I always think back, we went to Australia and won. I think that series against Pakistan before where there was stuff going on and off the field sort of galvanises as a side and what went on off the field and that let's not get into it come on but one day series with Wahab no there was a few confrontations and what did happen I wasn't there did you hit Wahab with a pad in the net session yeah I did and um exactly did he deserve it you hitting with a pad yeah we'd been up till about 2 a.m.

27:23deciding whether we're gonna play

27:24Michael Vaughan: things to it with I was holding it at the time that's what I was how did that come about no it's funny we is in a good way so the whole thing and the I think it was a a lot above our sort of pay grade that there's the sort of because of what had happened in the test matches and the match fixing and stuff like that and and then it filtered over and i think the ecb and the pakistan cricket board were fighting a little bit and then it just we had meetings till two or three in the morning um about whether we should play that game at lords or not and then it just boiled over but and i look back on it and actually and i'll be honest with you what when we that won that test match at lords um before and broadie and i had a we had a partnership i think that gets lost a little bit and absolutely winning that and so i think i was a bit cross about that and they sort of built up frustration brilliant came out rightly wrongly you what you didn't have many blow-ups did you no i was all right hit him with a pad brilliant i wasn't there i was at the nets before he came over and ravi actually did start and he was like what are you doing here and then he said something it just was all the ammunition i needed and um so yeah would you do him over the head or No, like that.

28:40Like that.

28:41Michael Vaughan: Gucci came around and he went, no, no, no. Troy, you mentioned the top seven and the two best players. You take them out worst sevenths in the world. What else did you say to the ECB regarding how you'd build this team? It's all about the Ashes next summer at the minute, let's be honest. What else did you kind of give us an opinion of what you would have changed? I think around the optics and the way that we played the game and how the team was seen. you want those guys to be ambassadors whenever they put on the shirt or wherever they travel to but you've got to get the balance right these guys are human as well and they're youngsters they're going to make mistakes every now and again and these sorts of things and you keep the word environment I think is thrown around quite a lot but you've got to create that culture yeah I think but I think that comes from doing the basics day in day out and those things sort of take care of themselves leadership Yeah, I think leadership is a big part.

29:36And the way that, as I said, as a coaching group, we have to set the tone and the standard for the team and what's expected. So for me, that's where I sort of came from and what I said my thought would be. I think they've got some exciting bowlers. And the bowling attack there, they can go on and, you know, you talk about the Australian bowling attack now. I think we could see that on an English side. in two, three or four years' time, which is very exciting. So that was my sort of say, we need to work with these bowlers and make sure that they're ready. And I sort of said, well, the T20 is in Australia.

30:17What do you want to do with regards to building up for the South Africa test? And these sort of questions. I had a couple of questions as well.

30:22Michael Vaughan: What did you ask them? Well, just was the priority. How much am I getting paid? What's the daily line?

30:33Michael Vaughan: But sort of... Go get a car. But sort of like, how are we going to schedule this? Because I looked at the schedule and I'd prep sort of like, well, they're here in these dates, but then we start a test match 10 days later or four days later in South Africa. How are we going to manage that? These sorts of things and being quite proactive in questions and captaincy came up and those sorts of things, how I would have done it. You know, and they asked me that. I asked them what they thought to him. So I thought it was a great chat. It was an hour and 40 down in London and I really enjoyed it. Apart from the coach that's coming, obviously you wanted that role, but you mentioned the captain.

31:11Michael Vaughan: Is that the way you were going to take the team? I didn't say, I said, with regards to that, I'm open to what has been communicated to them because I wouldn't want to come in and change. And my take as well, the last time I saw Ruti as captain, I was with the side preparing for the sort of COVID ashes, if you like away and um it was a very tough time for him you know very tricky playing for england and the sort of covert restrictions and you know as a team leading um side and obviously joe being so proud of you know his role in the the way that he carries himself in an england shirt um you know whether he had the appetite for it you know i wouldn't want to put it on someone who didn't want to do it so i'd have that conversation um but it looks like they've you know come to a great agreement and probably what I hadn't thought of is, you know, Brookie's such a young guy doing all three.

32:05That might be quite tricky. So, you know, maybe they've got to the right decision. You were coached in the 19s when Brookie was the captain.

32:16Michael Vaughan: Yeah. What was he? 2017. Tell me what Harry Brook looked like in 2017 to what he looks like. I don't know how much you've spent with him recently but we all have him as right or with the best. So, Brookie was a very, very talented. I often say this. He was the most talented under-19 player I'd seen. He was playing shots. I remember hitting it over extra against Spina. I hadn't seen a sort of 18, 19-year-old player do and just so talented. And the game came quite easy to him, which still looks like it does. So, yeah, he was a leader. He was captain. And that side, we had a fantastic side, actually.

32:55He had Will Jacks, you know, Harry as well, Tom Battington as well. We had a top-sided and we ended up losing to Australia, I think, in the semis when we got bowled up for 90-odd. So that was, you know, devastating. Plain trot bowl. Definitely not. What, three mid-wicket? Leading edges. But he was, and I've said that, and then after that I did a bit of scouting with the ECB and he was at Yorkshire and I saw him opening the batting and I was like, what's going on here? Why is he opening the batting? This guy's so talented. Was it under your watch? Were you in charge? No, no, it wasn't in my watch.

33:31Darren Gough: No. Absolutely not. Just check that. Just check that. Fine. Anyway, about that. Fine. And so he sort of, he was not wilderness for two or three years but he then burst sort of onto the scene and I was in the scouting music and he was like, you've got to give this guy Harry Brook, he's the most talented player I've seen. They go, oh, he's not performing. I said, watch this guy. He's really good. And so it's always nice, as a relief as well, when you've coached someone and they actually end up going on and fulfilling their talents.

34:06When you played, you were all like, intense and, come on, no, I'd be nice, intense, but you can control that when you're playing. And as a coach, when you literally, when the game is on, you can do nothing really what are you like under the pressure moments of watching a tense game um

34:25Michael Vaughan: okay i'm pretty pretty sort of philosophical about it i'm just asking the question the cheeks go a

34:33Darren Gough: bit red on occasions i mean i'll give you an example yeah i want to know because it's like how i'll give these off so so when i took over afghanistan and we went to the asia cup december I don't know, Dubai, September time. And our first game was against Sri Lanka. And Asia Cup, there's obviously six teams, there's eight teams there, but there were six. So you get a two-hour training slot. And as a coach, you know, the new coach, you go to the ground and you, so I went to the ground earlier, left the team. I went in a car, went to the Dubai stadium, had a look at the pitch, two spinners, three spinners, okay, whatever.

35:10Get to training for, our training slot was four till six. and I got to the ground at about 3.40. I was watching India train and, you know, training really good and all this sort of stuff. And look at my watch. The team, and they had media at the hotel. And I phoned them. I go, where are you guys? Oh, we're leaving now. This is Dubai traffic at 4 o 'clock. We get to, they get to the training at about 4.40, all casual. I'm tearing my hair out that I had lost. I didn't have any. But, and I'm sorry, this is unprofessional. This is not acceptable. You know, how do you expect to win tomorrow? All these sorts of things.

35:42and then we had fielding practice. I was furious and we finished at 6 o 'clock. We sort of left. I didn't, you know, not throwing the toys too much. Next day, we go out and we play Sri Lanka. We bowled them out for 100 and won by 8 wickets. I was sort of like, I had to change my perception of things because coaching subcontinent cricket is so different to westernizers. So as a coach of me growing up in a western, growing up in Cypher, and then obviously sort of growing up a cricketing career in England, very different to subconsciously cricket and what's perceived as important. Now, my challenge for myself was to evolve as a coach, but also how can I impart what I believe as a coach onto these guys and help them prepare?

36:24And I think over the four years, I think we did that with some relative success or quite a bit of success and sort of left the side in a better shape. And I think that's the type of thing. I remember sitting there on the side and was sort of like, I think I was like, hot. And I'm like, we're not prepared, we're not prepared. And then we ended up smashing it. And that's how we went.

36:44Michael Vaughan: What was, I mean, you did a remarkable job in the years that you were there. What was the hardest challenge dealing with the Afghanistan team? To be fair, there wasn't any hard, stuff just took longer to do. It wasn't really hard because they just want to learn so much and they're so passionate and they want to improve. They're sort of like sponges. I think maybe there's always a language barrier and the communication, those sorts of issues, not only with the players but administrators as well and how the game is run and sort of organised. But I think for me it was easy but also frustrating at the time because it wasn't obvious to them that how you prepared off the field had a direct correlation to how you felt or played on the field.

37:37All these sorts of things and training and diet and sleep and all these sorts of things have a knock-on effect to your game, how you think mentally. So I think that would probably be the trickiest bit. And nowadays with society, I think, everyone wants evidence. So you've gone at the times where they'll sit down or someone will phone you and say, look, I need help with my batting, can we have a chat? It's all about, you know, show me some videos and all these sorts of things. So to say, look, you need to sleep better, train better, practice better, they go, you know, where's the evidence of this type of thing?

38:11So as a coach, it's probably a little bit, you know, a bit more of a challenge nowadays to do that. And I think, so that was the test. And I was fortunate enough to have some good coaches around me who were all on the same page. And, you know, we had some great success and some great rides in ICC events. And, you know, that was brilliant and some fantastic memories.

38:31Darren Gough: What was the highlight of that? Pardon? What was the highlight? The World Cup? Oh yeah. Yeah, but there was disappointment how I just sort of finished and we were gone. Because we played in St Vincent against Bangladesh, had that amazing win there. And then less than 48 hours later we had to get on a flight, go straight to Trinidad, didn't even have time to train or see the pitch because of flights and all that sort of stuff. And it was just a bit of a rush. And South Africa were very good and blew us away if you like. For me, I think a few highlights of the 50 of the World Cup as well was that was earlier on.

39:07And no one expected that. So to beat Pakistan in Chennai, chasing down that, obviously beating England earlier on in there at Delhi, sort of I think gave the guys the confidence, you know. But I think we talk about our rivalry with Australia. But if you see the Pakistan-Afghanistan rivalry, it's different. It's off the scales. And that's the challenge as a coach, is to keep that emotion in check.

39:39Michael Vaughan: What's it like when you coach Afghanistan against England? It's fine. I want the guys to realise how important the game is for themselves. It's not for me. It's not a huge thing. But every time we've played, we've played England three times. We've won twice. and for me it's always been sort of a very proud moment for me because to play against England for these guys is such a big thing so to help them prepare and get ready for them and to then to win that's something they'll always remember I remember I remember saying to Muhammad Nabi and Rama Shah, Muhammad Nabi it was his I think his hundred and fiftieth ODI and Rama Shah's a hundredth I think I might be wrong on that and I said if we went to this was in Delhi I said if we win today, you guys will remember these games.

40:30You'll remember your 150th, remember your 100th game. And they will remember. I remember it. They will remember it. And so every time they played against these big guys, the big teams, I challenged them to be that way. It was just a shift in mindset, really.

40:45Michael Vaughan: I've been lucky enough to watch Rashid Khan all over the world. He could argue with Chris Gale. He's right up there with the top five T20 players of all time. I've seen his character on the field I've seen him on the warm up he's always buzzy and running around what's Rashid Khan like around the dressing room behind the scenes? Rashid's brilliant it typifies what you want he's got that passionate warrior mentality he wants a challenge he'll get in the opposition's face the biggest credit I could give Rashid he could play in all these tournaments but he will get paid whatever he does to play for say the MI London or MI Cape Town If there's games for Afghanistan, he's there getting paid 3 % of what he's getting for those other games in those franchise tournaments.

41:31So for me, I think that shows to the other players how important it is and what's expected of a player. And nowadays, you know, internationally, certainly with a smaller team like Afghanistan, you know, very quickly. And there are players who get turned quite quickly. their eyes start going towards franchise cricket and the sort of distraction and the sort of lure of the cash, I suppose, compared to what they earn playing for Afghanistan. Well, it's interesting.

41:57Michael Vaughan: An Afghanistan player, across all formats for a year, what would they earn? Fix, if you play all the games, all three, you're looking at maybe all games, all probably$80 ,000. For the whole year? Yeah, probably something like that. Which is, you know, one franchise gig. I think someone like... Noor Ahmed. He has worked for Rashi. Someone like Noor Ahmed was... Because they have Afghan contracts, if you play all three formats you get this, if you play two. So I think Noor Ahmed only plays... T20. I think his Afghan contracts, something like one and a half thousand dollars a month. But you're going to play for a million somewhere else.

42:39Do they play any in Afghanistan? No. Did you ever go there? No. So you never went to that? Nah. That was the thing, we never had a chance. To be honest, we were always in training in Abu Dhabi or Dubai. That's where your home games were. Yeah, Sharjah. We actually built a little bit of a fortress at Sharjah. We beat a lot of teams there. Tough. It was really, really good. I look back on it with some real fondness, actually. Weren't you the coach at Sharjah? The England one at one day, something.

43:10Michael Vaughan: 96? Were you the coach? December 8th. December 8th, was it? Let's talk to us in that team please tell me was you

43:16Darren Gough: I pulled out injured in our lives why we We haven't played or I picked up a batter anything since September Bombs straight out there and just won it loads of all-rounders.

43:31Michael Vaughan: Yeah, I mean you had funny Ronnie was Ronnie there Dougie Dougie bear Edleigh, Fleming. Matthew Fleming. Craig White. Smith? Who opened the batting? Neil Smith. No, no, no. Ali Brown. MK. No, no, no. Little Smith from Leicester. Ben Smith. Ben Smith. Ben Smith. I can't remember who was there. Ben Smith played. I swear, I remember. Neil Smith opened. No, no, no. It was Neil Smith. Retired ill. I think he... He was sick in his helmet. Neil Smith. Neil Smith. That's him, yeah. Warwickshire. That's his life. You bears, yeah? Yeah, you bears.

44:08Darren Gough: Come on, you bears. I'll tell you what we're going to ask you on. When you coach, when you've won as a player, when you've won as a coach, I've only done a few coaching gigs, right? It kind of... Do you win tri-fee? No, but it kind of means more. When you win a game, I mean, it's like, it's ridiculous, that feeling. As a coach? That relief, yeah. Or even DLC winning. We beat Surrey in that quarterfinal to get to finals day. I thought my heart was going to pop out of my chest. You've got to win. The delight of it is like... You've got to win. It meant more than a player almost. I never felt that as a player.

44:38Darren Gough: I felt delighted as a player because you celebrate it with all the lads. But as a coach or a DOC or whatever, it's almost like relief, innit? Well, you've got to win. You feel like you're the responsible. You've got to win. If you don't win, you're out. I think it's the relief because as a player, we're so used to having a chance to impact the game. Whereas coach, you still have a chance, but it's totally different. You're not out there. You're observing the whole time. and I think what you're saying, like your heart, it's sort of like, I think it's just relief. It is, it's an amazing feeling.

45:09The coach's role has certainly evolved since I was involved because I was there to take the pressure off the captain, get the lads prepared and then everything, it's his team.

45:21Michael Vaughan: Is that what you did to Neil Smith when he got man of the match in that game that he chundered on the pitch? Oh, that was World Cup 96. 96, I've got it in my ear apparently.

45:30Darren Gough: He won't coach then at World Cup, what, in Pakistan? No, you weren't. No, no, no, no, I wasn't. No, no. Pakistan World Cup were different. This is Sharjah. Sharjah, December 8th. It was the Champions Trophy in Sharjah. But it was... Hillingworth, a coach at World Cup. That's amazing. Raymond would call it. And Edrich. And Plank. Yeah. Oldest coaching group I've ever been part of. They've experienced. I remember the first day in South Africa. We had a South Africa before World Cup. This is the preparation. I was actually there. I was at a game. It was horrendous. It was horrendous. We get us there.

46:05Darren Gough: But we're going for our first net session. He said to Wayne Morton, Wayne, can you take the practice? Ray there with his big floppy hat on, shirt off, belly out. And he said, I'm staying here and getting some sun. He's the coach, isn't he? He's the head coach. And a bit of sunshine. And Plank and Edrich came down, didn't they? I wasn't there. No, no, but honestly, mate, are we even? We lost 6-1 in South Africa, surprise. And then went to World Cup and then we changed batting order. Atherton went from opening to seven. Atherton. That tour, I think you guys lost it. I was at Newlands growing up and I was also at Paul, you were walking around in your Spurs shorts with your pony on the sponges on the other side.

46:48You weren't even in your England gear. And then the Test match, they lost within three days and on the fifth day you decided to play against Western Province and they won as well. We lost everything. Exactly. I was joking. They didn't think that. I didn't play in the Test Series. Just to come back on the coaching side. I often think about... I watch other sports and I look at other head coaches, different sports and what they do and how they speak to present and all these sorts of things. Baseball, NFL, all these sorts of things they could add. But I reckon cricket head coaching is the only sport where, if as a coach, you lose your cool, you go, well, you've lost it.

47:29Lost it if you if you're a rugby manager how many times you've seen a rugby manager take off the headset and throw Yeah, if you kick the bottles. Yeah, passionate. Yeah If you see NFL coach throw his clipboard nice passionate. Yeah, but if you're a head coach and you go Fuck you know that that's this cool got like Justin Langer kicking the beard. No, it's right Only sport and I and as a coach you're always looking at how you control your emotions. Oh, she's it What's happening? Oh, he loves it. Are you a bookman?

47:56Darren Gough: Are you a bookman as well? Do you have a book? Do you write your book when you're coaching? Yeah, I know. What do you put in it? What are you having for dinner? All these sorts of things. And so that's what I always think about as a coach. And I always thought I'd never be one of these type of coaches. I'd be able to remember everything. I can't. And now you write it down. I do it. I have to. Like what I want to talk about in four hours time type thing.

48:20Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair.

48:48growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights, and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average.

49:27See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. GrowTherapy.com slash StartNow. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. 75 % of women who seek menopause care don't receive it. The lying awake at 3 a.m. wondering what's happening to your body ends now. Midi is virtual care built for women in perimenopause and menopause with clinicians who specialize in women's health. Plus, it's covered by most major insurances. Getting started is easy. You can book your first visit with a clinician right away.

50:07Midlife needs Midi. Visit JoinMidi.com to book your first visit today. That's JoinMidi.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage.

50:19Michael Vaughan: Trotty, we're going to get you to pick your greatest 11 that you've played with. So wherever you've played around the world, whoever you've played with, you've got to pick 1 to 11. So Bears, anywhere that you've played. Before you get on to that, Lions coach now. You did interview for the head coach of England. you said before you got to that interview stage that you want to coach England is that still the goal for in the future yeah yeah yeah do you need to do a county before you do that here's a question for you go on when did England last head coach ever come from kind of career it's Chris Silverwood no he was a bowling coach before was he yeah Peter Moore that was what Really?

51:01What about Jylo?

51:02Darren Gough: Was he before? Yeah, he was before. Wow. That's why I think maybe the landscape... Any were DOC at length, weren't he? Who? Jylo?

51:11Michael Vaughan: Well, you make a good point because all the appointments of late have not come from anywhere near.

51:15Darren Gough: Well, those come from New Zealand. We just go abroad and get them. That's all we do now anyway.

51:20Michael Vaughan: Right, Trotty. Who you've played with? Who are you going to open the batting with? Now, think about that because you might have played in a charity game with somebody.

51:29Darren Gough: I wouldn't normally play well put 11 down it's easy which cookie did you played it account with somebody that we put into your blade with not a guy with a bit with great Smith what player oh good start mate gee we're gonna have some leg-sided players here aren't we cook we go Jesus Christ seven so captain pool

52:22Darren Gough: Cook I want to buy some new place.

52:25Michael Vaughan: Who's your keeper? I'll come to that. Sanger Kaur. They put Sanger Kaur here.

52:31Darren Gough: Oh, when was that? He was in Warwickshire. I was seven. Oh, see, wow. Oh. I go Bell. Ooh. Bell star? Get him, Bell, lad. Peterson.

52:42Michael Vaughan: King Kev. Yeah. That's a seven. Actually, Gilchrist. When? Oh, you're having two keepers. Well, they can choose. Sanger can go first. When did you play with Gilchrist? Masters League. You said any time.

52:57Darren Gough: Gilchrist has to keep there. Who's your spinner? Lara. Where's Lara? Swanson. Swanson. I'm trying to think. Jimmy. Donald. Donald's 11. I played with Donald. Stain actually.

53:19Michael Vaughan: Stain Donald. Donald. Steyn. Sorry, Brody. Steyn. Well, you have to have them two in. My God. Anderson. Did Zaya Khan play for Warwickshire? Do you know what I mean? This is quick. This is a quick team. Are you going to have a spinner? Well, guys, Swanny was the best one I played with us all. That is a good team. I'm having that team over. You know, Sean Yadal's team was excellent. You've got Allrounder here. Yeah. And then you've got... I played with Freddie, but I'd probably have Stoic. Is he a skipper? Oh, Cook or Smith can be... Smith, yeah. Or Sanger Kaira. Or KP. Yeah. What about Western Province?

53:59Gilchrist. Did you play many against Western Province? West Province had a fantastic side. When I came through, we had Gibbs, Kirsten, Smith, Ashwell Prince. Did you play with them? Yeah. So Gibbs, I'm just thinking who else you could have had. What's he like? Ashwell Prince. He's a nice fella. Good bloke. After a coach at Langs, Dave. I'm just asking for a friend.

54:19Michael Vaughan: That's a good team, that. Good team. Shaggy's team, here we go. Matthew Aiden, David Warner, David Gower, Robin Smith, KP, Freddie, Gilchrist, Akram, Warn, Marshall, Jimmy was 12th man. Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Trotty, we've finished with a few community questions. Sure. This is... Stuart Broad actually claims that you measure your socks when they came back from the wash to make sure they were both the same size. Is that true? Look, Brodie loves us. You know, he's got a lot of quirks of himself, but... Yes, it is true. He... yeah. You always saw Brodie, whenever you knew he'd finished his spell, you'd told him to undo his scrap.

55:07It means you can't come back off. So when you would do washing, this is serious as well, Like if you have a bunch of your sort of GM socks and Some are six months old some are like three weeks old. I'm with you. I'm actually with you Some are the different sort of texture different colors and some are shrunken depends if you do You're not gonna put a One sock that's six months old and you've worn so many times with a brand new pair of socks So whenever you put in five pairs of socks and they'd come back at Lord's was this is what happened Brody'd always be next to me at Lord's dressing room and it always sit there like this.

55:41I think he used to enjoy watching me put my pads on and all these sorts of things, along with the rest of the dressing room. And then whenever I put my pads on, I'd see the guys elbowing each other, and sort of, because you were always there with Swan, Anderson and Cook. These guys had to change next to each other all the time. Don't let them fool you that I was the one with the most idiosyncrasy ever. No, but it was funny when you got a new pair of pads. When you're a new pair of pads. I've seen this guy walk this way.

56:05Michael Vaughan: They're the trio that made Joe Root's life a misery when he first got the cap. Your new pair of pads, when you had a new pair of pads and you weren't convinced they were the same size. That took about an hour, an hour of walking around dressing with the pads. These guys used to dress on the one side. Very cliquey, they were horrible to play. But I've seen him go out to bat with Jimmy Anderson's gloves because their kit got messed up because they were both Green Eccles at the same time. And I've seen him walk out of bat of lords and look up and go, because their kit was such a disgrace. That's not true.

56:35That's not true. But you have walked around with the pads, trying to work out, Will, why this pad felt different. True or not true?

56:41Michael Vaughan: Right, here we go. This is good. Which current player, Trotty, reminds you of yourself? Oh, Sam Ayn. Oh, no, no, no. Good player he is. I don't know about that. Sam Ayn. There's only one. You guys can say it. I don't. Sam Ayn. Yeah, but there's no one like Trotty. Oh, there you go, then. I saw a player. In a good way. You didn't work with him. Ace of Tribe. Yeah. So, with that side. Yeah. Well, in your league, yeah, but he kind of gets that side of the ball. Very talented boy. Unique in some ways. He's got a good walk, hasn't he? Yeah, I never walk like that. I wouldn't want that target on my back.

57:22But, yeah, I think there's a lot of young, talented players. That was the thing. We had a week now at Loughborough and I saw some boys, geez, they hit it hard now. They're not sure about... They don't ask you how their leave is going. They more want to know about how far they can hit it. So that's interesting and that's a good challenge for a coach.

57:40Darren Gough: Well, we said that. The white ball team, that T20 team England have got, it's just a joke, isn't it? They've got to win. One of them. They've got to win. And the thing, sorry, I know you guys have finished, but the challenge we've got now, I always feel, certainly with me as a Lions coach, and focusing on the World Cup coming up, I see so many young players not having played 50 over cricket. And so the challenge now is to get these guys who've grown up, certainly school cricket and county cricket to the tempo of batting at 50 over cricket. And because they don't play it, they go straight from their counties into the 100.

58:14And then we've got players like Asa Tribe and Ben Calloway who've been at the Welsh Fire now, didn't play the 50 over comp, but batted six and seven for the Welsh Fire, batted maybe four times in the comp, and then they don't get the opportunity to play 50 over cricket. So the challenge now as a Lions coach is to get these young players, give them the gears to play 50 over cricket. So when they get the chance to go and play ODI cricket, or 50-over cricket, it's not a huge shock to the system. And so we've got these eight games before Christmas with the Lions to give them a great shout for.

58:44Michael Vaughan: All right, finish with this one. What's harder, playing or coaching? I think playing. Certainly, I'll never forget how hard cricket is. And so I always try and keep that in the back of my mind whenever I'm coaching or criticising or trying to change someone's game, just making sure it's right and come from that side as well at times it's just a difficult game and we all need a little bit of luck here and there bril uh dave's got a big meeting to get to he's got good luck make a few decisions good luck

59:15Darren Gough: good luck day good luck we're right behind you he's got to do the fixtures for next year they're playing booking him just are you having a picture i'm not having all this

59:25Michael Vaughan: brilliant brilliant thank you thank you great yeah really good

59:37This has been a Global and the Overlap production.

59:57Michael Vaughan: Thanks for listening and thanks to our partners, Betfair. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and you won't miss an episode. And if you want to support the show, please leave us a five-star review and help others find it too. See you next time.