Richard Gould: CEO of the ECB, Ashes Venues, Ticket Prices and More! | Stick to Cricket EP 64

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2:31Michael Vaughan: Morning, morning How do you do? Alright boys I'll tell you what, shall we have a look at Goffey's book What has he ever written in here? Try and go Australia debacle He's always writing now in books isn't he Goffey? He's got posh right? I can't believe he's so organised Posh He's so organised isn't he? ECB generates roughly 310 Yeah, he's looking at your book Richard. Yeah, I like something on my pleasure. This is your I like this does you sir? Thank you. Look at this There's no way you wrote that I did I did I've always been well prepared

3:17Michael Vaughan: Australia debacle Richard Dave always gives our guests a gift Your gift. These are from the orchard and the baking apples. Oh, lovely. Thank you very much. Lovely. We can put some black fruit to that. That would be lovely. A bit of crumble on top and custard. You can throw them out of the way. Creme frais. They've come straight from the orchard. That's very kind, sir. Dave, just to give you a little bit of clarity about Richard today. He's flying to Dubai. Do they travel well, the apples? Because he's probably going to go to Dubai and then back to UK. The thought was there. The thought was there.

3:53Michael Vaughan: The thought was there. Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. So just hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

4:08Michael Vaughan: What do you wake up? You wake up in the morning, no one's drunk on the paper, isn't it? How have you summarised the last nine months? It's certainly been eventful. So you go to Rob. I'll speak to Rob. I will have. If this year would have been a Netflix or Amazon show, it would have been probably the best selling Netflix or Amazon show you could ever produce, wouldn't it? Have you had any regrets in the last year? When are you going to drive this kind of cricket operation and demand that we start winning major trophies? IPL is kind of the future. He was right. He was kind of right. He was right.

4:47He was right at the time. And so, although we will argue about that. I have to disagree a little bit. I did get my heels clipped by Vinnie Jones more than once or twice.

4:56Michael Vaughan: Ticket prices, the Ashes, you'd think that's fair on the fans. There are no test matches in the north in 2027. It's got to be a mistake. We will definitely have Ashes test matches up north in every season. Absolutely, and that has been the case. Just make sure it's Hedley, not Old Trafford. LAUGHTER

5:17Bit of ICC work. They're working out the future tour plots. trying to work out what international cricket is going to look like for the next four or five years. They'll all be there. Will they? I think most of them are there. It's a relatively informal one, this one. So we're just trying to work through what international cricket is going to look like for the next four or five years. You know, you've got, effectively, you've got three tectonic plates that kind of move against each other, whether it's ICC competitions, and we're now playing more of those, whether it's the bilateral cricket, which obviously is the important bit for us, and then you've got the franchises.

5:49and each one of those three elements are effectively trying to VIFE schedule in the window and access to the players. Well, that's going to be a long meeting then, because franchises now, I mean, what we've got coming up? We've got Japan, we've just been talking about a few, we've got Japan coming up now.

6:06Michael Vaughan: Yeah. Italy, we're just bringing one out. Yeah, there's a lot of them coming up. When you say they're going to have their own league. Yeah, T20 competition in Japan. Italy are bringing one out now. Richard, do these new satellite franchises, do they have to be affiliated to the ICC or do they just go ahead? They have to. If they've got more than four overseas international players per team, yes, they have to have ICC accreditation. Yes. Otherwise, they can just be cleared by the local authority. And the issue is that there has been an explosion of them and there is a variety in standard, not just on the field, but there's also...

6:42Sometimes there are issues that you don't quite understand how they're funded. If there is no domestic TV market, for example, in that country, where is the money coming from? You don't get paid. There are some issues there. So I think, you know, at the moment, the number of competitions is still growing, but at some point, I think there'll be a consolidation. Can I go back to your informal meeting? Yeah. Is it just a piss-up? No. Let's not get on to that so soon. Sorry, I'm just asking. Come on. Certainly not. Otherwise... OK, can I come? When you go to a meeting like that, is there a trade-off?

7:19You know, we really want that, but we might have to trade it off. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the way that we work our international calendar is based on Test cricket. The first thing that goes into the schedule is our test series, five-match test series against Australia and India, reciprocal. And indeed, we're just about to try and allocate those out to all of our venues up to 2039. So for us, Test cricket is where the absolute core of our interest in business lies. But that varies amongst the countries. So the West Indies will have different priorities. Cricket Ireland will have different priorities.

7:57And so it's almost a series of dating exercises to work out who needs what. And then in between that, you've got to fit in the ICC tournaments and you've also got to fit in the franchise leagues. So there'll be some lobbying as well. Some lobbying, yeah. In the end, it all comes down to market. Frankly, who's got the most money that can attract the players for that particular window? In March, April, May, it's the IPL. During next summer, it'll be all eyes on the ashes.

8:29Michael Vaughan: So the IPL is obviously the cash cow for everyone, i.e. players, franchise owners. I go over there every year and every year I go, they're always talking about expansion of a couple more teams a longer window. I mean that's not going to be great for the international game so how do you as the CEO of the ECB try and stop that happening? I don't think we're able to stop it happening. You see the value of the franchises now like 1.6 billion I think Rajasthan was. They're huge. The The commercial model in India is different from what we have here. So here we rely very much on Sky and our other commercial partners.

9:15And it's people that subscribe to Sky end up effectively funding our game. In India, there is no subscription model on that. It's all based on advertising. And so what they try and look at in India is, OK, if we increase their amount of content over a longer period, is that increasing the amount of advertising revenue that's going to be generated or not? And sometimes they've got to find the sweet spot. And if it goes out too long, then there's a bit of an issue there for them. So they're always trying to find that sweet spot. And the advertising market in India has suffered some big jolts over the last 12 months.

9:49So money gaming, which was kind of this quasi-betting thing, was made illegal by the Indian government about 12 months ago. That was a bit of a surprise. That's cut about 30 % of the advertising revenue out of India. And that will have an impact on us. because when ICC perhaps goes for its next broadcast deal, most of the money comes from India and if that market is depressed and that will have an impact globally.

10:11Michael Vaughan: Just before we start talking about English cricket and what's gone, being a CEO, you're obviously CEO at Surrey, Somerset in the county game, Bristol City for a few years and obviously now back at the ECB in cricket. What is your day-to-day looking like? It's a lot of fun. The day-to-day sort of varies with the job. This role is a hugely varied role because the ECB looks after everything from grassroots cricket all the way up to our England teams, men and women, and everything in between. So no day looks the same on this, which is fun. I've been doing sports CEO jobs for... My first one was 2005 at Somerset.

10:55So I'm sort of 22 years in now. And they're a lot of fun. Does it get easier? I think every job you do, you have, you know, the first couple of years are always a little bit wide-eyed, trying to work out the variables that are in play. After that, you acquire a bit more wisdom and hopefully that allows you to make more progress as you get deeper into the job. And the rapport with your chair at the ECB, that's pretty, it looks to be pretty solid because you were together at Surrey. Yeah. and you seem to be a good double act. Do you bounce off each other? Yeah, very much so. Are there disagreements?

11:36There are huge amounts of disagreements, but we know each other well enough to put those in the right way. So there are always positive conversations on that. And I'm lucky to have a really strong board. We've got people driven from all sorts of areas, perhaps not enough from cricket, which we sought to rectify in the past. So it is very much a team game. And, you know, the ECB, we've got Rob Andrew that looks after the professional game. Leisha looks after the recreational game. We've got Vikram Banerjee that now looks after the 100. So it is very much a team effort because we cover so much ground.

12:17And, you know, although money, as I said, is always an issue, cricket in this country is relatively... it doesn't have much money particularly compared to football. So our revenues centrally into ECB is about£350 million a year. That's half that of Arsenal. So we're trying to run a sport nationally on basically half of what one club in North London does. So it does offer up more challenges. Is it an impossible job? I think you can judge that based on performances and overall. At the moment, we've had difficult times with the England men's team. But when you look at the recreational game, it's growing so quickly.

13:04We've had something like 250 ,000 matches scheduled this summer, which is more than we've ever had scheduled before. About 220 ,000 have been completed. Sometimes things get cancelled due to weather. That growth has largely been driven by women and girls' participation. So as a sport that might be 10 years ago, we didn't have a great deal of participation amongst women and girls. Now that's what's driving the game forward, particularly in terms of growth. I say impossible because you can't please. It seems like for the ECB, it's quite an easy thing just to slag the ECB off. It just seems like every governing board.

13:37But the fact the ECB is owned by the 18 count, we'll just take it at the top level before we go to grassroots and stuff. You've got 18 counties who own the ECB, and you cannot please all those 18 in any stretch because every, like Essex has got a very different, you know, approach to your needs to Surrey or to Yorkshire. I sit there and I do not know how anyone does your job. I don't know because we sit here and go, oh, why have they done that? But when you're actually at the heart of it, it's literally impossible to get. I agree with that. So realistically, and the question we talk about, we talk about money into the game, what is it, 120 million goes into domestic cricket?

14:19First-class game? Yeah, probably something like that, yeah. Is it sustainable to have 18 first-class counties, realistically? I think so, yeah. And when I look at the part, you know, how many England players do you need? Well, we've probably got about, in the men's team, 30-odd centrally contracted. You've then got another probably 10 to 20 that are on the fringes. That's quite a big number. And so I think the bigger the pyramid, the better. It's got to be sustainable. You know, we've now got to a position where all of our counties, every single county has got a men's team and a women's team. But that's more money.

14:53That is more money. That is a commercial challenge which we need to address over the next five to ten years. But, you know, they're difficult roles. You don't do a role like this to be popular. You just do it to try and take the game forward as best you can. Amongst our counties, it's written within our articles, we have a responsibility to be fair. to all counties. That doesn't mean that we treat them all the same, but we try and be fair. And at the same time, we try and grow the popularity, just make sure that more people are playing the game, more people are watching the game, and it's a deeper, richer game.

15:28Michael Vaughan: Rich, you said, you know, the game's commercially challenging, and over the next five to ten years, you're going to try and address that. What do you have in place and plans to address that commercially challenging position? The 100 was a big play in this five to six years ago because we have based the commercial future of the game on Test cricket for the last God knows how many years. And the 100 was there to ensure that we have a franchise tournament in this country that attracts the best players in the world and allows us to retain the best English talent. I think what you saw this year allowed that to be delivered.

16:02It was certainly a higher standard. Buying the Indians, we had every world-class player, both men and women, that we could possibly wish for. Test cricket, we believe, will continue to be the bedrock of the commercial future. And, you know, sometimes we're often talking about, you know, the death of cricket, the death of test cricket. I'm excited, that's 1963. Exactly. I've seen Wisdoms going back into the 1890s where they're having that debate. So it's always been there. But for us, in our market, it is exactly what we need to base it on. But if we can have more revenue generation through high quality women's cricket, more women's cricket through the 100, the blast.

16:48You know, the blast itself is a really big competition. Last year, this year, we had about three million people through the gate. 750 ,000 for test cricket, 650 for the blast, 550 for the 100. You know, this goes back to 18 counties. Every one of those counties is really important to us.

17:08Michael Vaughan: Yeah. And do you see 18 counties playing all formats? Yeah, I do. So there won't be in the future, say, 12 counties that play all formats and, say, there'll be six that just play white ball cricket? I can't see that happening within the next generation. So, no, I'm confident on that one. And it is important because we need the player pathways to come through. We need players to be able to find opportunities to prove themselves and come through. And the wider the base, the better, I think, for that. When's the next broadcast rights deal? Because 75 % comes from international cricket, right? Broadcast rights?

17:51About 75 %? Richard mentioned that revenue is driven by Sky. So when I was working for Sky, there was always a little rumble just started that other broadcasters, massive players like Amazon, Netflix, Google, would be expressing an interest as the Amazon have in football. Is there anything that's on the horizon? So when you look at a broadcaster, is it just that Sky come in with the big bucks and there's a bit of BBC, Terrestrial, which would be better if we could get more? Yeah, my first job in cricket was in 2005 when Sky first came in. Yes. And I remember tipping up a Taunton and, you know, in the old pavilion, we still had cinema seats that had been taken out of the old Taunton cinema.

18:43The facilities were left something to be desired. Nothing wrong with a cinema seat. No, but when it's been left outside for 20 years... A nice cup holder for your pie. ...and has its own ecosystem within it, whether that's mice or whatever. And so, you know, the investment that Sky has brought in for over 20 years has allowed us to just transform the game. Definitely. There is always going to be competition, or we hope there's always going to be competition, from Netflix and all the rest of it, because that helps us to drive the market value of cricket ever higher. But we've had a great partnership with Sky.

19:22Getting cricket in front of people is important, and that's where the BBC and Channel 4 in the past and Channel 5 have had an important part to play. But so is YouTube, really important now. I think this year YouTube overtook the BBC in terms of viewership. So there's always new people coming to the market. That's clips, isn't it? But that's a symbol of kind of the world we're living in now where radio has become very much like that as well. I mean, I used to work at TalkSport, still do little bits, but it's all about little 20 second clips now. Apart from, if you, you know, I was watching one of Yorkshire's championship matches a couple of weeks ago and there's like 10 ,000 people watching it at 11 o 'clock on a Sunday morning on YouTube.

20:10You aggregate these numbers up there pretty nice.

20:12Michael Vaughan: I'd say my kids don't even know what normal channels are. I'm not a YouTube channel. They honestly don't. They're just YouTube, they're TikTok, they're whatever else, Snapchat. They do the research. I'm not down with the kids. It was all about clips. Clips and kiddies on phones and on tablets. Do they actually sit in front of a TV? I don't do it for a start. At my age, I wouldn't. All right, guys, is that how we...? I'm doing apples and potatoes. Bumble, is that how we attract kids these days? Because, look, when I was growing up, I came from a council estate. When I was a kid, that's where I was.

20:48And you do fondant potatoes. I do now, I've changed. And pee puree. But what I'm trying to say... It's a potion now. His gates are bigger than his bills. You're being unfair. Leave him. This is important because how are we going to attract... We talk about YouTube there. Is that how we're attracting now the kid who might come from a council estate who's never played cricket? Because it's not played in schools, right? As much as it used to be. Well, it wasn't playing much in my days, but I was attracted to it. Listen, I want to give you a praise here. I was attracted to cricket from a young age by watching BBC right yeah but now That kid from the council estate might not have yeah, but I reckon I reckon I think No, you too.

21:34Michael Vaughan: I think they've got more access to watch cricket They do have because they're all on the phone. Yeah, and you get these clips for free You know so you get your wicked you have to pay for it You're on Instagram your on X the wickets come pretty much within, what, three minutes, three or four minutes. A wicket happens. You go, there you go, it comes on X. Jimmy Anderson's got another wicket. Oh, what a catch. I reckon kids now have got more access to watching. Not live, not every single ball. But they've got more options. They've got to be following cricket. You've just been working in the European Cricket League.

22:05Michael Vaughan: Is that what it's called? Belgium, yeah. Right, Belgium. I didn't watch one minute of the games, but I saw most clips, i.e. wickets or moments, Maxwell's reverse switches. Yeah, because you're following. The algorithm's following you because you're all... everything about you is cricket yeah but I will say so so in schools and so we've just had a final the Knights Stokes State School final at Lourdes in that tournament this year was over 15 and a half thousand state school kids playing playing cricket so I do think cricket is played in schools well you have you've seen the Knight Stakes card which you are a part of and I think nearly a thousand schools 1100 schools participated in that which was which is a brilliant MCC did a cracking job you've even got chance to shine getting into half half the number of schools Lord's Tavern is doing great job in their special educational needs schools we are doing it it's difficult because because the state schools don't have the resources they they would like to be able to do everything and so you know we've got teacher training programs we've got all sorts of variety of things but I agree with you I think more people have more access to cricket now through clips and all the rest of it but club cricket on like Friday nights kids some vibrant perfect example on this show what do we do we do the cricket district clips yeah from a Saturday afternoon whatever the leagues are in the country we'll get the funny clip well when you were playing we ever seen a clip from a Saturday afternoon guy no no falls well they have telly clearly when I well but this is my point there are cameras on every ground now so we get to see cricket I've never seen it always said that I don't think the game's ever been more vibrant than it is now because there's so many choices to watch or play.

23:50ECB feathering the cap was Premier Leagues to really push it through. Resistance right at the beginning but now with your Premier Leagues you've got top players playing in that Premier League. So you come back to well there's a lot of them getting paid. They always have done. They always have. They always have done.

24:07Michael Vaughan: If you've got them. I'll tell you a story. Sheffield Collegiate played on Sunday. This show's not going out tonight, so a week last Sunday. In a semi-final at home, and it was the Yorkshire League winners, which was collegiate playing a Durham League winner. Who opened the batting for the Durham team? Go on, Alex Lees. Gary Pratt. Gary Pratt. It is. Opened the batting, got 70-odd, saw his team through, they've got to the finals. So last year, I watched Sherry Footenbridge, and opening the batting was Chesney Hughes. Remember Chesney Hughes? Opened the batting for Derby. He did a good song, didn't he?

24:42St Chesney Hawks. Opening the bowling for Sheriff Huttonbridge was Matt Fisher. Right. Matt didn't get a wicket. Didn't get a wicket in the game. Sheriff Huttonbridge. That's your mob, isn't it? Yeah. Well. Yeah, but it's a good standard. Premier Leagues are a good standard. Yeah. Very good.

25:02Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair.

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27:30Michael Vaughan: Rick, as a CEO, do you... So when we are players or whatever we do, I wake up in the morning and there's a player that I want 150. I want to get a score. As a CEO, do you... What do you wake up? He wakes up in the morning and goes, there's no one drunk on the boat, aren't he? Do you wake up in the morning and go, oh, please don't go out in Derby? It is a very varied day. And our aim as a governing body is to be, to be honest, relatively boring, relatively stable and provide a good environment for our players and our clubs to excel and do things. But sometimes there are events that get in the way of that.

28:07And, yeah, there's always something going on within the cricket ecosystem somewhere. So how have you coped with this year and the things that have gone on in England?

28:18Michael Vaughan: Dave, I've got a review of 26. Go on, review that. January lost 4-1 in the Ashes. Harry Brooks, New Zealand nightclub. Story breaks February and March. England reach 75th to the T20 World Cup. That's not too bad. March, Brendan McCollum, Rob Key and Ben Stokes all retained. June, England win the first test of the summer. Stokes and Atkinson involved in nightclub incident and drop for the following game. England lose the series to New Zealand 2-1. Ben Stokes announces his retirement during the third test on that day four. July McCollum sacked as test coach Fleming appointed as coach August Bride and Cass we just mentioned Derby was in handcuffs outside a nightclub after the first test win against Pakistan while he was on Durham duty September England win 3-0 against Pakistan Joe Root back as captain how have you summarised the last nine months?

29:06It's certainly been eventful and when you go back to the ashes the number of supporters that went out to Australia and followed it here. You know, there was a great disappointment, I know, within the team and within the ECB and cricket at large that we weren't able to deliver what the supporters wanted, both in terms of the results that we wanted and in terms of the behaviours that became evident. And so, you know, we do very much regret that we weren't able to deliver what our supporters wanted. on that one. Do you step in, you and the chair? And Rob is the director, so you see the behaviour of the players.

29:54Do you, behind closed doors, personally go in and read the riot act? I won't personally read the riot act to the players or the individuals because we have to respect the various levels of management. And then you hold the various levels of management, including myself, to account as a win-win. So you go to Rob? I'll speak to Rob. I'm bollocking. I will have... We will have discussions with Rob. The chairman will have discussions with me. Me, you, yeah. And so, you know, the proverbial rolls downhill. Can I just pick you up on that? Do you drive the chair or does the chair drive you? My chair drives me.

30:36The board drives me. Thank you. The board drives me. Is that for Lancashire? Lancashire Watch. Thank you. Are you writing notes for Lancashire? No, I don't need to write. I'll tell you what, you do know, if you talk about commercial here and in a world where you're always looking to commercially benefit, if this year would have been a Netflix or Amazon show, it would have been probably the best-selling Netflix or Amazon show you could ever produce, wouldn't it? With everything that's happened in that short period, the Ashes and the aftermath with the Ben story, it would have been a blockbuster.

31:08Michael Vaughan: What's stopping this cricket from doing a show like that? Because I actually think the Aussies have come out of it great. The two shows that they've done, you know, Justin, we had him on the show, we had him sat in that chair when he was kicking the bin at Headingley and then putting the rubbish. I actually think people who love cricket, well, England fans, are thinking Justin Langer's such and such. But when you see him do that, you go, in fact, he's just a human being. You know, he's a normal fella. Do you think it'd be good for our game in general, for those that necessarily aren't obsessed with cricket like us, but just outside of cricket, who are sport lovers, would actually see a different side of the team?

31:43I think a peek behind the curtain is often what people want to see. And if there's any Netflix or Amazon out there with deep pockets that want to make us an offer, we'd be pleased to have our discussions. But there's also that balance. Mr Bolt. There's also that balance between wanting to ensure that the players and the staff have a private environment in which they do their job. I mean, I would have thought nothing would. I watch some of the players. I enjoy watching them. I'd hated the camera in there all the time. Yet, watching Living the Lions 97 is probably...

32:17Michael Vaughan: Yeah, but I say this. If it's good enough for Pep Guardiola, I like the camera. That's fine. English cricket should be open. And Mourinho. No, that's what they should do, but I would hate it. For Kevin Peterson, he's just got the job now as mentor. But that clip's bloody good. Well, that's ECB doing those clips, though. Yeah, it is. Which clip? But he's sort of addressing the team, which is quite private, really. And coaching, doing the stuff you do with... But, you know, as a former employee, I thought, yeah, I like that. That's good. Yeah, maybe there are different ways of doing it now. Yeah.

32:49You know, the Drive to Survive, I think they're just changing their format slightly. I'm not saying it's wrong. I just say, me personally, if I get out, I don't want a camera reacting to my reaction.

32:58Michael Vaughan: I just think it's modern player, Alex. They're all over their own social media. I'm not on social media. You get used to the camera, though. Yeah, but I just wouldn't... I just see you at Big Brother House. What are you on here for, then? What are you on here for? Because I like talking to... Oh, tough. That's it. You like your profile being raised by coming on. It has nothing to do with that. You said come along and I was like, what? I'll eat some food. I've mentioned it before. We've got two England captains, England coach, England premier bowler. That thing that you sort of read out there, a resume of what's going on, and I'll just put myself back into that coaching position.

33:33When you see a player coming out of a nightclub in handcuffs, I piss myself. you know it is totally right you can't have that that's very long as coach Dave that didn't last long I had a chocolate that Christ what a night that must have been handcuffs he doesn't have to comment on I just have you had any regrets in the last year a lot of reflection and and we're always grateful for the feedback that we received from our media friends that help to provide that reflection i mean that genuinely because we've got a lot of uh great experience in the media you know i i read it all we see it all and it all does help to shape what we want to do and i you know everybody is everybody's got the same intent which is we want successful england teams and that goes from the county system all the way up through both broadcaster yeah broadcaster so we're all pushing in the right in the same direction sometimes there different ways to get there.

34:39And so, yeah, there's always lots of reflection as to, could we have done this better? Should we have made a move there? Should we have done this there? So there's lots of reflection, but we also, it comes back to that stability point, we're always keen to try and deliver the most stable platform we possibly can. You know, perhaps we've seen with a couple of the countries that we've been playing this year, when you have perhaps not the most stable platform, that does have an impact on the picture. We're always trying to deliver that.

35:11Michael Vaughan: You mentioned, obviously, commerciality. Has there been stages over the last few months where you've been put in difficult positions by your commercial partners with what's happened off the field? No, no. We get feedback, you know, and if they see things that they don't like, that, you know, we're talking to them. It's a brand, isn't it? But I think sports sponsorship is genuinely growing. People are seeing that there is so much kind of ways of getting to their various markets, but nothing quite like linking with sport because people care about sport and therefore they want people to care about...

35:52Men and women, no. Yeah, men and women. The women's sponsorship sector is growing very quickly. They've got a long way to go. to improve performance. I think that's fair. I think the women's game has... You go back to 2017, when we last did a renegotiation with Sky and we had 16 female professional players at that point. We've now got north of 200. We had 700 women and girls sections across the country. We've now got about 3 ,500. The women's game is on the march. We are committing a lot of financial resource into it, a lot of investment, probably the best part of£35 million a year. and revenues are probably eight or nine, something like that.

36:35But this is the future. If we want to increase the participation in our game, that's what we want to invest in. How do you increase performance then? Because you've got 200 professionals. It must be time. Oh, I think Lottie's doing a cracking job, I've got to say. Well, within the shires. Within the shires, the amount of funding that comes in centrally from the ECB is there to help underpin it. So this is where we're different from other sports. So football and rugby, if you want to have a women's team, you have to effectively pay for it yourself. Within the cricket structure, we provide a grant to the 10 counties that it will be next year that host a Tier 1 women's county, and we will provide a grant that is sufficient for them to fund a proper pathway.

37:20And we're seeing the women's game taking huge strides forward. When you look at the young players that are coming through, 15, 16 and 17 now. We've got so much talent coming. You only have to look at, like, I've only got first hand, like, Elsie's 12 as well as nine. And you can safely say 10 years ago, there wouldn't have been, this is Evershot, we're talking Evershot, tiny little groups, there's girls and boys' nets. A girls' net of, I reckon, 15 or 16 members of the under 13. And that 10 years ago wouldn't have been there. So you might have one of those players who's then gone, We've got 13 and not all of them are going to be outstanding cricketers, but to fact there's 15 girls playing cricket.

38:00Michael Vaughan: But the word talent I hear a lot in English cricket and I totally agree. I don't think we've ever had a group of men's players with more talent than this group. When do you as CEO and the chair, I know your strapline is to be the most inclusive sport in the country. Completely get it. For me, that's a non-negotiable. When is your strapline going to be to be the number one test team in the world, win a World Cup, both men's and women, and to reach a World Test Championship final? Because with the talent that we have here in the UK, you've just mentioned the girls coming through, when are you going to drive this kind of cricket operation and demand that we start winning major trophies?

38:38Michael Vaughan: We do have quite a few different straplines in terms of where the focus is. Clearly in terms of discrimination, we're doing a lot of work on that. But it comes back to your point, we have so many different priorities that we need to deliver. The performance of our England teams is essentially what drives this game forward in this country. Win. Both in terms of fan base. Win. Financial support. There is nothing more important than that in terms of where we're trying to get our resources. And it comes back to those tectonic plates that we were talking about. We need to make sure that we retain the best players.

39:19That's why we've invested a lot more into the players in terms of salaries and in terms of performance pathways and all the structures that we need in there.

39:30Michael Vaughan: Are you generally worried that our players leave in the ECB's contract to go and play in the Phantom? We were at one point. You mentioned KP 10, 12 years ago when he said that IPL is kind of the future. He was right. He was kind of right. He was right. was right at the time and so although we will argue about that I only have to disagree a little bit he was right at the time I always think it might be right for one person or two people but in general but there's more now the lure of the lure of wearing the England cap still I think I mean it's loads more I'm still yet to see in the three major you know the powerhouses of world cricket India, Australia I'm still waiting for a player to say see you later to a central contract still waiting for that moment.

40:16There have been a few, even in my three or four years, New Zealanders, that have taken...

40:20Michael Vaughan: I'm sorry, the three that pay the biggest, the biggest central contract, I'm still waiting for that moment. I keep hearing it all the time that we're worried about our players. They've got the board by the old suites, haven't they? That's why their wages have gone like that as well. If I was the board, I would have definitely dangled and said, OK, leave. This is me, and again, I was going to ask another, what's the hardest part of the job, and I might cut onto that, but I'd be like, do you know what, playing for England, I'm the chairman of the UCB, or whatever, I'm trying to run UCB cricket. Go on then, if you don't want to play for me, do you know what, someone else will want...

40:55We've never had that level of conversation. No player has ever, I don't believe, tried to hold any of us to ransom. And we were, you know... But you have offered three-year deals to try and keep... Yeah, we have offered three-year deals as well. You know, we were talking about the football model. How unfair is it that where you are potentially paying a player who's only on a one-year contract, that every September in the past, every player was out of contract? Are we all there? You all were. We're living in a different world now. You look at Liv in terms of disruption of sports. Every year, every single one of our players was out of contract.

41:33I'm just saying, Richard, in that generation where that was happening,

41:36Michael Vaughan: we were winning Ashes series. Yeah. We got to win the World Cup in 2019. We were winning TG. So just maybe you need to keep players on edge. There's always a balance there, isn't it? You know, I'll go back to my football days. When you see a player suddenly doing particularly well, you know he's in the final year of his contract and looking to... So I was in the final year of my contract every year. And so are you. That's why you did so well every year. I had no idea. I was hanging on. So we have a balance. You know, we have some on one year, some on two year contracts. but I do think the players are owed a degree of security as well because what happens if a player gets injured in June or July and they're on a one-year contract and they've got six months?

42:21Well, you review each individual. I mean, at my peak, I had one year as a central contract player did my knee. They didn't give me another year out of, oh, well, he's been England's best bowler for the last six years. Off you go. Well, second to Andy Cadeg, off it. Yeah, well and Gus. I would doubt that and Gus Fred and suffers.

42:40Michael Vaughan: Check the stats.

42:46Michael Vaughan: Stick to cricket is brought to you by Betfair. What is the hardest part of your job? What is the bit you just like dread a bit? I don't dread any of it to be honest. Oh come on. Honestly, honestly. Everyone has something they must go. So Alistair, this is someone that's served as an officer with the Royal Tank Regiment. He went to do an advanced management programme at Harvard Business School in 2009. There's still some of you dreading your job. Yeah, but they've made us different stuff. Oh. His dad? What about his dad? Football? Bobby Gould, crazy gang. 160 goals he scored, his dad. Brother was in goal for Celtic.

43:23440 matches, 160-odd goals, his dad. Is that in his notes? You must have been brought up with Vinnie Jones. I was. There you go. I knew, yeah. Dennis Wise? When I was 18... Yeah, Fashionoo. He was part of the crazy game, wasn't he? Back to the bash. 1988, I was about 18 or 19, and so I was just joining the army, and would come back, and Dad would let me train. I wasn't very good, but he would let me train with the players that are coming back from injury or suspended. When you trained a lot on Vinnie. I did get my heels clipped by Vinnie Chains. More than once or twice.

44:03Michael Vaughan: There's a great doc out about that. It's great. It's a Vinnie Jones special. I'll tell you what, Vinnie Jones in Gentleman. Have you watched that? Yes. Oh, fantastic. Brilliant. Love a bit of Vinnie. Can I go back to that fourth day against New Zealand? What time of the day did you get the call that Ben was going to retire? About 10 o 'clock in the morning on the Sunday. All right. So as warm-ups were taking part. Something around that, yeah. No rumours whatsoever? No.

44:36Rumours. There were some rumours circulating Thursday, Friday. But, you know, I think when players are choosing to resign or retire, when they want them to retire because he's on a central contract for another year beyond this time, you know, often they want to do it in their own way. And I think that's to be respected in terms of privacy. So I think it became clear that he wanted to make an announcement at the time of his choosing. So Stephen Fleming has obviously seen Ben Stokes and our campaign to get Ben playing in the ashes seems to be dead at the minute. He says he's very comfortable and that's where it sits.

45:18Michael Vaughan: Yeah, I'm just going to wait until next summer. Okay. Just wait. I mean, I don't know. You've got a new captain. Yeah, I don't know Ben that well. I don't know him that well, but I've watched him closely as a player. He's stubborn. And he came back for the 50-over World Cup and in the back of my mind I'm thinking, he's going to play for Doreham in April and May, no doubt he'll do well, he's going to be in the first division. He'll do fine and suddenly an injury or two and I just can see that the knock might come. Not saying he'll say yes, but I could see the knock happening. Could you, Richard?

45:50Experience has taught me that administrators shouldn't get involved in this because there was, I think there was an occasion where an ECB chairman and told Kevin Peterson that if you score enough runs, you're back in the England team. And he got a triple. He scored, I think, 330-odd against Leicestershire. But as a cricket fan, you'd want a good all-rounder in England's side. We want our best team possible. Whoever is in our best team should be there.

46:19Michael Vaughan: We were saying on last week's show, we've all listened to Stephen Fleming talk and I think we've used the word sense. We feel that there's a sense and a maturity regarding the way that he's spoken and there's been a real good message that he's sent. He's clearly got a great cricket brain. He was a wonderful player, captain, done well in Chennai and we all feel that we've got a nice, safe pair of hands managing the England Test team. And captain. Yeah, look, it's been an eventful summer. I do think that we're in a good place. We're very excited about next summer, but not just about next summer.

46:58We're out to Pakistan for a tri-series shortly. We then got a white ball series against Australia in terms of the men's team. South Africa, three tests. We think there's everything to be optimistic about. And then on top of that, we've got the Women's Champions Trophy that's going to be taking place in India in February. The great thing about cricket is it comes thick and fast. We're not short of games. and this is where when we do have issues bouncing back quickly is really important because the next challenge is upon us Does it worry you though? We just watched two series here we just watched the Pakistan series which was horrendous viewing really, because the poor standard of Pakistan and then we're just watching these one days now, Sri Lanka again, the poor performance of Sri Lanka they've not been quiet at the races does it worry you as a board when you've got these teams but that gap is getting bigger and bigger between I would say the big four now I think South Africa are in that I know people like that but it is a big four now isn't it South Africa New Zealand New Zealand are in there as well five but they're not

48:08Michael Vaughan: the financial power they are punched massively but India will worry for you because that is still the basis of the ECB's commercial monies coming through test cricket, right? But is it a worry with a standard we get into at the moment of some of these teams in test cricket? I think teams will go in cycles. We know that Pakistan can be brilliant one day and not so good the next day. We always want to have the most competitive games possible. And we also need to recognise when we're playing well, the bowling attack that's come to the fore this summer is really exciting in terms of that. I think the leadership have done a great job through the difficult events to get us into a position where we're really focused on playing well.

49:01Of course we want the most competitive cricket, but I also don't want to sit here and think that we won't have our bad days or our bad... Oh, we've had plenty of days. In any era, we've had plenty of days.

49:13Michael Vaughan: I can't go earlier than that. Is the wealth of the game spread wide enough? And I can only see in my time that those teams that we've just mentioned, particularly England, Australia, India, with the wealth that those three teams bring in throughout the game, they're only going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. And those below them that don't get any real finance in the same equation are just going to drop off because their infrastructure is not going to be there. Their pathway programme is... You look at the pathway programme England have. I mean, you've just appointed Jonathan Trott as the Lions coach, who was an incredible appointment when you think he was the Afghanistan league coach.

49:47Michael Vaughan: So England are a point in expertise because they can afford to. And then you look at Sri Lanka, you look at Pakistan, Bangladesh, these teams, they've just not got the money to be able to deliver. So in time, I can only see that the top three will get a lot stronger. You've got to have a strong domestic market. You've got to be able to sell tickets in your own country and you've got to be able to sell broadcast revenue in your own country. You know, Pakistan's got a population of 250 million. Bangladesh is about 200 million. And, you know, New Zealand, I think, do an amazing job. They've got a relatively small market, what, six million in terms of population, and therefore a media business similar to that size.

50:25So you have got to have a strong domestic market. And not enough of our full members have got that. West Indies is a good example. So if you haven't got that, then you're relying on ICC revenues. And so the ICC revenues that come in basically all broadcast from Geostar. We know that those revenues are going to get challenged after the next cycle. Those revenues are shared out amongst all of the members. Now, India takes the lion's share, so that will take 38 % of the revenues that come in. They deliver probably 80 % of the value. So you could argue that they're donating their other 40 back to the rest of the world.

51:05All of the other countries, us included, have a share of between 3 % and 6 % of those revenues. We're about 6.8%. Ireland is about 4%, something like that. And so if you don't have a domestic market, you then rely on the ICC revenues. That is unlikely to be sufficient on its own. So what we do need is to help countries develop their own domestic revenues, broadcast revenues, thumbs on seats. And is that possible? I think it's more challenging in some markets. You know, we've seen what's happened with the West Indies over the last 20 years, and that's shrunk. But we also then see what's happening in Nepal with that coming forward.

51:48So, you know, they could be a very strong country. Nepal is really good. I enjoyed that.

51:53Michael Vaughan: So on that model, it is legitimate that in time those countries that I've mentioned are going to potentially fold away even more so than they are doing now. Well, I hope not because we participate in ICC tournaments and there are more ICC tournaments than there have been. That's generating more revenue. Whether or not that continues going forward, who knows? But we do that in order to help all those countries. And if we're not playing in those tournaments, Ireland's not getting 4%, New Zealand's not getting it. It's 5 % or 6 % and we're getting at 6%. But we also tour a lot. So the England team, particularly the England men's team, as you know, you all know, tours more than any other country probably other than India and every time we tour if we go to New Zealand we don't get paid for touring New Zealand the home nation gets to gets to keep all the revenues from ticket sales and broadcast as do we so that that's you know I I think we do as we do as much as we can in order to try and support cricket in those other countries and what's changed is you know if we go to the West Indies they will come to us so it's reciprocal but the kind of cricket that we play will now change, I think, a little bit more.

53:07So, whereas what we want is more Test cricket, they may want more white ball cricket. And therefore, we need to do what's ever best for their market. So that must be hard then, to get the balance. So we play white ball over there. Yeah, they'll still want to play Tests, I'm sure. Yeah, Tests, maybe Barbados. Good trip, that. How do you genuinely get the balance right between keeping international test cricket as the pinnacle, supporting county cricket and make sure that carries on, which we all love. I'm a massive county cricket fan. And obviously a big factor is now promoting the 100 and making it that big global competition behind the IPL.

53:50How do you get that balance right? So it's not easy, but I would say this is the advantage of the ECB in that everything is within the same family group. So football is a good example where you've got the Football Association, you've got the EFL and you've got the Premier League and then you've actually got the National Leagues below that as well. All of them looking after their own interests. Whereas we've got more puppies in the sack. They all have their own particular demands, but we do get the opportunity to try and shape it more strategically.

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56:32Michael Vaughan: Ticket prices for the ashes. We've spoken about it on this show. we were very strong on£167.50 to sit in the Hollies, a 43 % increase from the last Ashes series. Clearly, it's supply and demand. You're going to sell the ticket, no problem. But you'd think that's fair on the fans? It is expensive. I think if you look at the Ashes, though, you've got a range of between£90-odd and£165, depending on the venue and where you want to sit. Also, it is expensive going to watch live events. Glastonbury I think is over 400 quid next year but just in terms of inflation inflation is rising at 20 % since the Ashes came so it is expensive I like Stuart Cain's comments a couple of weeks ago when he just pointed out that there are there are no there are no investors taking money or profit out of cricket you know this is all of the money that we've got goes back into the game and you know whether it's the grassroots game whether it's you know talking about funding to the Premier League, there's about half a million pounds a year that goes into the Premier Leagues, whether it's the money that we're using to invest into our clubs and our grassroots cricket, there's a lot to do with it.

57:50So at least take heart from when the money comes into the game, it is being used on cricket. How do the ticket prices get set?

57:58Michael Vaughan: Is it down to each individual ground to decide upon the price? Yeah, ticket prices get set by the way. And what do the ECB get from that ticket price? So we get a share of that ticket price, which varies between venues. What's the share? So the share will vary between 20 % and 50%. So at a venue that has less international cricket, they pay a smaller percent. Those venues that have more cricket, we take a higher share. So Lords and the Oval, which obviously are part of the rotation every year, you take 50 % of the tickets from those tickets. We're taking between 40 % to 50 % of that, all of which then goes back into the game.

58:40And this is when people are talking about where Test cricket gets played and have we got too much here, there or not. We'll come on to that, I'm sure. I'm sure we will.

58:49Michael Vaughan: You've got a couple of Northerners this side of the table for a reason. Don't listen to me. Well, three now. Well, he's a solid. I just love this North-South divide thing, because they've just arrived in Wilmsdale. I've never seen so many black 4x4s on the road than ever before. We're not sure. They're just footballers. No, we're not. Exactly. That's why we want some cricket, to be able to buy some tickets. I'm going to say the revenue share from Old Trafford next year, then, is nil. It can't be right, though, Richard. I know we are strong on this show. I personally think when the Ashes are in town, when the Ashes are in town, you have to play at the venues that suit the England cricket team.

59:30Michael Vaughan: I get, and David might have a different opinion, I understand Lords and the Oval I understand that I'm not going to argue that the rotation they should be involved I get that but what I can't have is that England playing at venues next year that are a little bit vulnerable for the England success so we go to Australia we know we're going to play at the Gabba we know we're going to play in Brisbane because Australia know their record against England is absolutely first class I just can't particularly when we haven't won a five match test series since what 2017 that's the men's game I'm thinking, crikey, to win an Ashes series next year, don't you feel it's best that the England management have the venues which are going to be best suited for the cricket that they're going to play?

1:00:12I think it's fair that we are not providing... You always want to provide home advantage for your teams. But we used to have nine test match venues. We've now got seven. So when we've got five Ashes tests, we do want to make sure that it goes around the country in a relatively fair manner. Now, there are no test matches in the North in 2027. That... It's got to be a mistake. The, um... Well, going forward... Bollocks! Going forward to 2039, yes, there will always be an Ashes test match in the North. If you look in terms of historically... What is the North? I don't know, I'm going to let you define that.

1:00:56Birmingham, Nottingham, above there. Is that normal? Of course. Well, the old line was Birmingham, wasn't it? Wasn't it? What was the old line?

1:01:03Michael Vaughan: Hey, stop trying, but you know exactly where the north is. I know. You had some of your great days at Headingley getting snicked off. Oh, no. Kicking them up. Trudging off that Sri Lanka. The pattern has always been to make sure that there's always an Ashes Test at either Headingley or Old Trafford. In 2023, there was an Ashes Test Match at both venues. That came as a bit of a surprise to us. I've been in the game quite a long time and when, back in 2018... So you punished them for having... England won one and drawn one, so you're 1-0 up from those two venues. There's the big six though, right?

1:01:43Let's get to it. There's the big six grounds in the UK. Yeah, I think there's six. It's Old Trafford, it's Edenley, it's Trent Bridge, it's Edgbaston, it's Lords and the Orville. Are you saying Chelmson? Chelmson, I'm just waiting for you. No, but there's a big six. Like in Australia, you saying there's only five grounds. There isn't. There's about 20, but there's only five because you're playing at the same one every time you go. That's part of the history of our game. So for me, yes, we used to have six Test matches in a summer. Now it's five, so one has to miss out, right? I get that. But we should be playing, for me, against Australia, the Ashes, at the best five or six grounds that there is.

1:02:23That's my personal opinion. is going to host its first action test. Give them one day, give them a test match against Bangladesh. It's a very, very fine test.

1:02:30Michael Vaughan: I like... Look, you've got two in London. Where is he? You have one at Southampton or Cardiff, if you're going to use those two venues, I have no problem. And then you have one in the Midlands and one up north. This is where I go back to how hard it is to actually please everyone. You've not got a test match in the north, come here, and one day. So you're in Durham, Durham don't have test match status, right? So you're the cricket fan in Durham. How much is it going to cost those fans in Durham to go down to the Midlands to watch a Test match? Do they watch a Test match in Durham? Well, they don't get to the Test.

1:03:01They always get one at the early in season when it's freaking cold. We've also got the women's test at Headingley. Yeah, you have.

1:03:11The women's India test this year did ticket sales of 25 ,000, 30 ,000. It's a great event. And I'm sure the women's test at Headingley will be very strong as well. But look, it does come back to the point that we have to try and be fair to all of our members and to the game nationally. And it does make it more difficult, I think, for our players when we're not in the same positions as Australia. You know, there's a toss-up. Is that the first test next time we go out there? Is it going to be in Brisbane or is it going to be in Perth? One of the two. And then you can work it through.

1:03:40Michael Vaughan: But you can guarantee the cricket fans who are listening that till 2039, we will definitely have Ashes Test matches up north in every season. Absolutely. Absolutely, and that has been the case. Just make sure it's Hedley, not Old Trafford. It will always be. But you look at the Home Advantages as well. Do second division sides get her? You talk about pink ball tests as well. That's one of the things, you know, in the Ashes we should be playing a pink ball test next time we go there. Well, again, you've put back on that. At the moment, yeah, because I think... That was our best performance in the last Ashes.

1:04:11I think Australia win 94 % of the pink ball tests. We should have won in Brisbane. Well, don't say that, cos Keezy are lovers playing with the pinks. Cockerbill Ball again all summer. We don't want to get that. It's getting back to the venues and where they are. Since it was announced that there's nothing in the North, there's not one person come to me and said, that's a great idea, don't have any test matches in the North.

1:04:34Michael Vaughan: I do. I think it's a mistake, but we've got to move on. It's not going to change. As Richard's just said, until 2.39, now going forward, there is going to be a... So that's great. We can now move on. OK. The 100. Yes. I reckon my idea of all the 100 was your idea no no it wasn't my idea of what I would do later how it gets better carry on thanks for that I reckon anybody that says something positive about the hundred whether we say something nice about it on this show you put something on yourself get bagged you get absolutely lambasted oh it's because you work in it you're getting paid to Yeah, you've got to...

1:05:16Michael Vaughan: We seem to have a game that you can't like everything. I love every aspect of the blast. I love county cricket. I love the 100. I love test cricket. Me too. 50 over cricket, I'm falling out of love with a little bit. That's the one that I'm not completely in love with anymore. But everything within our summer, I absolutely adore. You say something about the 100, you get absolutely... So I'm guessing you get a similar thing at the ECB. Similar. But at times, and I think that noise is reducing now. The 100 this year was the best tournament we've had so far. The quality of play was exceptional. I think having the new investors in has added a real edge to it.

1:06:01For both players and coaches, it really, really means something. But I also remember 2003 when T20 was created. Next year is the 25th anniversary of the Blast. That was hit and giggle. Oh, it was. I remember it. There was a psychological divide. But I think one of cricket's great strengths is that it can do things in different ways, brings different audiences on board. You must recall in 2003, when the blast came in, Lords was against it. Who was it? They said no. Did they not have a game? No, it was a competition. We had two days to practice. I think it's fabulous entertainment. The 100 is fabulous entertainment.

1:06:45We've got to know the owners of the Lancashire and the Yorkshire. Thoroughly good people and cricket people. They might have a shed full of money, but they are cricket people. History of the game.

1:06:57Michael Vaughan: I guess what I don't get the county members, particularly Somerset. You're very close to Somerset and Durham. They don't have a team. So it's a long way for those people down in that part of the country to go and watch a 100 game. Are we at a stage now, or certainly in the next two or three years, where we will add two more teams to make sure that everyone around the country can see the 100 throughout that four-week period? Realistically, if you're at Somerset or Durham, you're not going to travel to watch a 100 team necessarily, but then that's where the broadcast is important. And the One Day Cup has reinvented itself over the last couple of years, providing great opportunities for players to come through.

1:07:34Extra. To increase the number of teams in the 100 would mean that you would need to increase the window in which it plays in, which would mean that you would need to lose some international cricket. Unlike Australia, that play their Test cricket at the same time as their franchise or T2A to 2020, we don't. We keep a clear window for the 100s, so there's no international cricket during that. So increase that window means that you've got to reduce the amount of international cricket that we're playing. That would not be in our interests. It definitely wouldn't, because you're upset. That's why the members of county cricket clubs, are upset with the 100 because it takes away international cricket out of the best month for kids to go watch test cricket doesn't it that that was my point about earlier when i were on about the council kids to go watch test cricket is the old schedule and it's the schedule because it has to fit in somewhere and august obviously is that month that it's chosen now it's demanding but the the people out there moan at us because it takes away those members who are members of each club, it takes away county cricket from them and international cricket in the month of August.

1:08:40That's what they're upset about. But the plus side is that we have now got, I think, second only to the IPL, the best franchise tournament in the world on our shores that can engage our players and bring the overseas players. And, you know, that is kind of an existential battle for us because there are others that want to play in our window. Whether it's in America or Sri Lanka or what does live cricket look like at some point in the future, this is when it comes back to what we're playing the players, we do need to set ourselves up as being where the best players want to play. Because if we're not, they will go and play elsewhere.

1:09:21Michael Vaughan: I've said that on this chart and I don't necessarily think it's the Harry Brooks of this world. It's those really strong county players. I'd say something like Lewis Gregory. He could easily go and play in other leagues around the world. but because of the 100 money that he gets, he stays in our game, so we get him for the whole summer, which is great for cricket. It's great for our games. Will it change to T20? Will it go from 100 to T20? I don't know that's something for the teams to decide. They have a variety of things that they want to do. Is it down to them now to decide upon what the format will look like?

1:09:50We've got complicated voting structures for all sorts of things. 51-49. You've got to go on anything. I think if the teams really, that's a direction of travel they wanted to follow, than they would. If you're broadcasting to India and its broadcast revenue is driven by adverts, the longer the game, the more...

1:10:10Michael Vaughan: Just on that. So the franchise owners, who now are in the 100, they all get together and go, we want it to be T20. How would that affect the women's game? Because we know from broadcast that if you have a 20-over game that starts at, I don't know, say it starts at 1.30, and then, say, whichever way you go, women's first, men's second, whatever, men's first, women's second, and then another one, that is a long broadcaster out there. Fine for pay-per-view, but if you want a terrestrial station to provide that platform, then it becomes a lot more difficult. And that's why I'm not expecting any rapid decision on that any time soon, because those are the factors that get considered.

1:10:51I hope it stays 100. I like it. You've said that before, you said we need to be different, haven't you?

1:10:57Michael Vaughan: I go to the IPL, it's far too long now. And also it's just the same tournament played there. You know what I mean? It's the same tournament. At least the hundreds, there's different. There is a point of difference. Point of difference. It makes it stand out. That's why it was created. You know, Tom Harris and Sanjay Patel, they did a great job at that point of saying, we want it to be different from county cricket, so let's create this different format. And Sky have been very good supporters of it. And I get the psychological divide, but it's cricket, OK? It's basically T20 with five ball overs.

1:11:26There's lots of... I'm with him. I get the sort of resistance that you will get, vitriolic at times, but we have a massive choice throughout our summer months as to what cricket you want to watch. And I get that August is this and it's depriving me of. I understand all that, but we should be able to live in harmony, I think, in time, with all the formats that we've got. And I'm glad that you said the blast, because there's an impression that the blast is neglected. I think it's a fantastic tournament. Great, great.

1:12:01Michael Vaughan: I see a lot of... Love playing in it. It's a great tournament. I think we're really blessed with the variety of competitions that we've got. I've been impressed by meeting the owners. They love the game. They've got their cricket. They do love the game. I see loads of kids in our area with Manchester original shirts on Lancashire. I don't know why they're wearing the Lancashire shirts at the minute. I mean, I see a few guys. I came out to a Manchester game earlier in the season and I walked back into the centre of Manchester afterwards and it was a warm night, so there were quite a lot of people...

1:12:35Survive, well done. Well, he's an army man, isn't he? There were more people in Manchester cricket shirts than there were in Manchester football shirts. I just thought, you know... That was this year. That was a pretty cool thing. That was right. United shirts.

1:12:51Michael Vaughan: They did give them out for free on the day. However it happens, you know, I thought that was a really good mood. We do this to go in, just saying, we're going to do free shirts out. We give free shirts out every year at Accrington Stanley to year whatever at primary school. Really? We give 1 ,250 shirts out to the kids. Just give them. Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Richard, we've finished with a few community questions. Hang on. I've got the suggestion for the home yeah yeah oh yeah this is it yeah so if a player hits a big boundary the broadcaster throws it up there how many meters and they're all round about if you get a 90 meter hit 90 meters that's a hundred yards 100 yards 90 meters wedge yeah there's a massive band, music, gong, and you get 10.

1:13:4710. That's a 10. Over 90 metres hit is a 10. I thought he was going to go seven. Rasmataz. Ten to win the last ball. Ten. Over 90 metres is a huge hit. KP said that for you. He was way ahead of you, Bumble. Did he bollock? Four years ago he said that. Hey, can I just ask you one more about the... We'll take it to one of the cricket committees. Regulator. He likes the regulator. I took it to Sanjay and Sanjay just laughed and walked off. One more thing on the women's side. On the overseas players this year, which I think has been great for a women's game, I've seen it grow, but do you think we can reduce that to three overs?

1:14:31Is it four overseas in the women's still? Three, because then it gives more opportunity for the girls to develop. Because at the minute, it looks to me, you've got two England great players in the side, You've got four overseas players. And the players we want to develop in the women's game are not getting no game time. Because all they're doing is doing what we used to do at school with all the people who never got picked. They're just standing there and doing nothing. So there's some very good players who are not far away from England who are coming in at six or seven as batters rather than probably coming in at four or five.

1:15:06And I think that last overseas player, if you go through the teams this year, that last overseas player in most of them was really a second, third grade overseas player. That's the only thing that annoyed me about the women's... You've got to choose carefully. You're an overseas player, you've got to choose real careful. But it's hard, isn't it? You can get three quality...

1:15:26Michael Vaughan: It's right, we need our girls to develop our girls. We need opportunities to get them, but they need to be playing the prominent roles in the game. And they're not. I think three overseas is fine. I think it's three, they need three. Four in the men. Right, we'll finish with a few community questions. Is there any from Mr RK? He's not on this week. Oh, right. He's gone missing. It's Gary from Leicester. The ECB fined and deducted points from Leicestershire last week. How do you balance fairness and keeping the enjoyment and drama in cricket? Yeah, Leicester were deducted a lot of points for pitch issues.

1:16:07that it's a difficult one but we've had difficulties with pitches being substandard in the Championship and therefore last year decisions were taken to increase the penalties for having poor pitches in the Championship because we want really good Championship cricket which closes the gap between that and Test cricket and it is a difficult position for Leicestershire. Do you give a directive to each county as to what pitches they must produce? This is an ideal cricket pitch, let's move from there. No, no, we don't. But the cricket regulator did send some stuff out three or four weeks ago just reminding people in the run-in to the end of the championship season, just be careful, don't...

1:16:51Everybody wants home advantage, but don't cross the border between that and recklessness. But we've seen some tin pot pitches this last three weeks. I mean, it's going to happen when you've got four matches in September. I mean, it has been a render. So what's the difference between Leicester getting done and some of the other pictures we've had this year? Why specifically have they been?

1:17:12Michael Vaughan: Well, the Oval. The Oval's had a 23-weekie day. They've had a 20-weekie day. Every time there's a picture that is regarded substandard, there is an inspector that goes in. Should it be the same inspector, August, to every one? It is effectively the same inspector that goes in. And then a report goes... A report goes to the cricket regulator and they decide... 55p a mile loss. Has he got a helicopter? Who is the cricket regulator? 55p. One person. No, we met him. Oh, you were there. Great guy. Yeah. Yeah. It's done a good job for us in terms of providing decisions to be made that are at arm's length so that there's no suspicion that I'm pulling strings behind people's...

1:17:51Is it one person? No, it's an organisation. He's got a team of over 30. Yeah. Oh, right. Yeah, I see. Where did I meet? I didn't meet him. He came to the Lord's, are you?

1:18:00Michael Vaughan: 30, I'm 30. This is one from Steen Didsbury. Please can the ECB... I know you're going to answer this, because I've read something that you are delivering into schools. Please can the ECB sell more opportunities for adults to play organised softball cricket? Yeah, it's a good shout. We've got the Dome Projects that we're trying to roll out, which is great for softball. And, you know, we've seen it with Tateball and other communities. we think being able to play cricket all year round has got to be a great thing. The Dome's great. You've got one in Bradford. Yeah, you've got one in Bradford. We're going to try and...

1:18:33Yeah, Richard Thompson, the chair, is very keen on driving those forward.

1:18:37Michael Vaughan: Just finishing, Rich, thanks for coming on. I don't know how long you're going to do at the ECB, but when you leave the ECB... Well, I don't know how it finishes, but when it finishes for you in cricket at the ECB, what's the game going to look like?

1:18:54stable in terms of governance and making sure that we haven't got clubs teetering on the on the edge of insolvency and I think that the hundred money has made that the hundred money has provided a lot of stability so I'm so we're making good progress on that winning is where we want to be you know we want to winnie trophies both the men and the women we want to win things and sort of in the middle, we want more people playing cricket, engaging with cricket, and we want strong county teams, we want strong community teams. We've got 7 ,000 clubs up and down the country. They provide such a backbone for community, not just in cricket but in all the other good things.

1:19:35Massively, massively. Community, cricket.

1:19:37Michael Vaughan: Can you give any advice to Lancashire County Cricket Club? Just the last question for Dave. All of our clubs sometimes go through difficult periods and they're all very appreciative of the various elements of feedback they get. But without doubt, all of our clubs always bounce back and they're in a very strong fashion. You'll be back, Dave. You'll be back from Division 3. Richard, brilliant. Thank you. Thank you very much. Fantastic. Thank you.

1:20:18Thank you.

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