Brian Lara: Test Run Record, Favourite Bowlers To Face & Rivalries | Stick to Cricket EP 4

0:00Phil Tufnell: Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. Hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show. This Monday.com ad was created by a team of people and AI agents. Rhys, our content agent, wrote the copy based on our best practices, like mentioning Monday.com three times. That was the second. Johnny, our coordination agent, built the timeline and kept everyone aligned. Olivia, our human creative director, stayed in the loop because agents are great, but they don't always know when a joke lands. She had one note. Tell listeners it only takes minutes to build an agent. So minutes.

0:36Create your own AI agent today on Monday.com. Labor Day deals are looking good at lows. Save$10 on one gallon cans and$50 on five gallon pails of select interior paint via rebate. Plus, get two 2.5-quart or 3-quart mums for just$8. A fresh look and savings? Even better. Labor Day deals are on now at Lowe's. In-store and online. Valid through 99. While supplies last. Mum sizes vary by location and exclude Alaska and Hawaii. See store at Lowe's.com for more details. Hi, Pod fans. Max here. Barry's here, too. Hello. And now the Premier League is back, Barry, meaning we'll be providing incredibly astute analysis three times a week wherever you get your podcasts.

1:18Barry, with the remaining 10 seconds of this advert, can you provide some astute analysis?

1:22Sir Alastair Cook: I think Arsenal are going to win the Premier League. And there you are. For more hot takes like that, watch or listen to Football Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

1:31Phil Tufnell: Look at these biscuits. You're in the main seat here, buddy. BC, the prince. You're on the end. Do you want a sweet or a roll or a biscuit? Where's Phil? He's a bit on edge. He's a bit on edge. BC's here. He's here. You're going to have to come in. He's in. He's hiding from you, Brian. I've got me shy. You're on in a minute. Which end do you want? Which end do you want to bowl that?

2:03Sir Alastair Cook: No, I said hi. Left-time autodact. I'm mentally scarred. What, from Antigua? Oh, Antigua. 375. Never broke sweat. Unbelievable. How many hours did you bowl? I bowled a few. Who were captain?

2:20Phil Tufnell: You're a captain.

2:22Sir Alastair Cook: So when you said, Phil, come and have a ball, what did you say? I tried to blend in with the sight screen. I put all that white stuff off my face. But I had to have a ball. Nice to see you, mate. Nice to see you too. I've bowled it. Have you? Yeah. I was actually going to wonder why were you here, sir? I mean, look at these street guys. I'm old now. He's boring. Yeah, I bowled him. Where? In 2004. 2004, West Indies versus MCC. Wow. Just before you guys played against him. And we were swapping ends. What did you bowl? I got a test wicket, don't forget about that. But Arundel. Arundel, yeah. And we had a decent bowling attack of Hogarth, Jones, Min Batel, but they're swapping ends.

3:11I bowled the first two balls, a very poor offspin. He turns to Thorpe and goes, this bloke don't spin it. Three sixes later, thanks a lot. I've done it. LAUGHTER

3:23Phil Tufnell: I think he said that to probably most spinners.

3:25Sir Alastair Cook: Yeah, I did. Particularly English spinners, Phil. There you go. I've only been to Antigua twice, and that was to play against Brian in whenever it was. And then two years later, I went with a tour, you know, like a host of a group of people, and I saw him, he got in total 775 for one. LAUGHTER Oh, thank you.

3:51Phil Tufnell: Thank you. 700. 400 against you. Well, is it you for 375? Yeah. I've captained him when he got 400. Yeah. And then against Durham, he got 501. When that lad, Chris Scott, dropped him and turned to first slip and said, I bet he gets 100. He got 501. You got bowled off a no ball as well in that game. Bowled off a no ball, Cummings, and dropped straight behind. We're talking about, like, I dropped Karen now on 200. When he was on 30, he got 300. That's 270, but the bloke who'd no bored him cost him 490. It's a big one, that. BC, how's your golf? Golf good. Not bad. Playing off about 15. Playing off five, then.

4:39Phil Tufnell: I'm playing him this afternoon. I'm off eight, he's off five. You know when I used to live in Bramall? I lived in Bramall and I lived backing on to Bramall Park. we'd see him and Yorkie had go past. And the other footballer, he plays at Bramall Park, Clayton Blackmore. Remember him, Clayton Blackmore, a midfielder. And so you'd see him play, go past our house, which were very similar to Royal Westmoreland in Barbados. Oh, yeah. What do you mean, Bramall and Royal Westmoreland? Where does that start and end? Well, it starts with cricketers. because we had a place, like a little combo, just by the 18th where they'd come in at Royal Westmoreland.

5:24Phil Tufnell: Me and my missus were there. And at 1.35 every day, Gary Sobers used to tee off 1.35. And so you'd sort of time it that he's coming down that 18th, which is a dogleg, isn't it? Ian Woosnam's house is just on that corner. So I used to sit and watch him. So, I mean, my best three players of all time, best three of all time in all the time I've been around cricket. Sir Gary. Him, Gary and Viv Richards. Them's the three. Three West Indian icons. Fantastic players. And, I mean, behind them, just a bit, Clive Lloyd. I played with Clive for years. Fabulous player. Sir Gary plays off. What's he played?

6:06Phil Tufnell: Played off. Played off, yeah. Gary's Sir Gary. Was he Scratch? Yeah. Was it right and left-handed? I heard so. But Barbados played for Barbados in the Holman Cup and other tournaments. It's a very good golfer.

6:21Sir Alastair Cook: Why did you? Because you played golf, right? I started left-handed. It's a funny story. Viv and Greenwich and these guys would beg for me. I was only 19, 20, come play golf. I wanted to go into Bridgetong and check the girls out, do some shopping, that kind of thing. So I never really joined them. It was 94. we were playing against Lewat Island, Trinidad and Tobago. And we could not see the pitch when we arrived the first round. They just put up some stumps. It was all a green track. Trinidad had a group of young players. They were all scared. Two days later, the game was over. And in Munster, there's one flight a day.

6:59So the game started on Friday, finished on Saturday, but we had to leave on Tuesday. It was a four-day game. So Simmons said, let's go play golf. I said, okay, nothing to do. There's 10 ,000 people. and nothing to do in Monster Rats. And I played golf left-handed. Crap. Had a birdie on the 18th. Well, first round. First round, and then went back playing golf. Par 5, 18th hole, Monster Rats. Played golf the next day. Got to Trinidad. Didn't have left-handed clubs, so I wanted to play golf again. Played right-handed. And then I just kept, yeah, I just kept playing golf right-handed. Obviously, there was that saying, you know, roughly 1994 it was.

7:38So that's the time when I broke out with the scores against your country. 375, was it? 375. Yeah, a couple other scores as well. Nice to play. And they start talking about golf affected Sobers. He played golf and it affected his game because he's left-handed and he started to play across the line. I don't know anything. I never saw him play. So I just stuck to right-handed and that was my excuse. He said, well, it wouldn't affect my batting. So, yeah, that's how I played right-handed.

8:05Phil Tufnell: Well, you know the Burnley Lara, Jimmy Anderson. and we call him the Burnley-Lawry. Burnley-Lawry. You know, he bats left-handed and he plays golf right-handed as well. So it must be something in the, you know, you grew up right-handed. I actually think that my swing, you know, when I practice swing, and if I lose my swing right-handed, I practice left-handed and I can feel it's a more natural way for me to swing the club. I just haven't changed. Do you like your trigger movement in your goal? Can you imagine? Whip it back. We actually made Jimmy bat left-handed in the net. A right-handed, because his goal's good.

8:37He must be better right-handed than left-handed. Well, we thought he couldn't be much worse, because he's got lovely goals for me, hasn't he? Yes. It's high. I think we had two nets with him right-handed, and he was worse.

8:52Phil Tufnell: We mentioned Yorkie. How is he? Dwight Yorkie. Where in the world is he? He looks like he's on a flight, because there's only one tick on his phone. But Yorkie is in charge of the Toronto Bigger national team.

9:04Sir Alastair Cook: Right. obviously trying to get into the World Cup. And we have a great chance because the World Cup is being held in America, Mexico, and Canada. So three of the top teams in our group qualified automatically. So we're now left with Costa Rica, Jamaica, Panama. So it gives us a very good chance. Where are you in the league now? No, but we are now moving into three groups of four, four groups of three, something like that. And the top team goes through. But we just got like a rude awakening in America. We got five playing in the Gold Cup, got five from America, drew against Haiti, they had ten men.

9:42And Saudi Arabia, who I think is just a guest of the CONCACAF, they drew with us 1-1. We were leading them. And a victory against them would have gotten us into the second round, which is about to start. Are you assistant coach? His? No. I wouldn't mind to be a part of it because I know a little bit about football. Who's your team in the Premier League? My team in the Premier League? it has to be Luton Town Arsenal well they're not there anymore they're going to be no you know I had a team called I don't follow that much anymore but I had a team back in my village in my younger days called Santa Cruz Hotspies Tottenham Hotspies Tottenham Hotspies Adelaide is it Huddle yeah that's my time Adelaide they had a good side Lisa Gooner Arsenal

10:30Sir Alastair Cook: fierce rivals because the Tottenham You were good at football, weren't you? Decent, yeah, decent enough. But I didn't like to be up front, winged. I didn't like being tackled, though. No, I would say I didn't like being tackled.

10:42Phil Tufnell: What position were you? Think Roy Keane. Just up down. What, and you didn't like being tackled? And you're saying you're Roy Keane? We're all right up to 15, 16. But then I got into cricket, so I'm like, ooh. You played down the middle, did you? I played with George Best. Get out. Give over. I'm telling you, I'll bring a picture in. You sound like Farouk Enjaneer. I'll bring a picture in. All right. I'll bring a picture. What were you playing for? Summit Winders. Summit Winders? Summit. So it was a corporate. It was a corporate. I thought he'd forgotten the first one. No, I think we're in a league in Blackpool.

11:15Phil Tufnell: Summit. Summit Winders. I'll bring a picture in. Me and George coming out at half time. Piles of mud like that, just mud. George, we were shit up to glory from top to bottom. And I said tactically, I said to the manager in the dressing room, I said, what tactics are we playing? What's the format? He said, well, if ever you get it, just give it to George. Yeah, well, of course. So I did, yeah.

11:38Sir Alastair Cook: Yeah, nice. But I did see you walk out to bat and you strike. It wasn't a vivid strike. So I could understand you did play football. You didn't have that, you know, you had that kind of flat foot.

11:48Phil Tufnell: When we played against Viv, I used to say, I wish I could just walk like that.

11:52Sir Alastair Cook: Never mind if I was like it.

11:58Sir Alastair Cook: Just show us that little one I did as well. Little pull. So I spent the first five days of my test career in the bathroom

12:09Phil Tufnell: Arguably, and you could talk about it, they're the best team he's ever been

12:11Sir Alastair Cook: He'd sort of pull himself up and sort of start going like that The music would be going Dressed as Margaret Thatcher with a pair of pads and a batter, isn't it? How did you deal with pressure? Pressure, I welcome pressure Have you still got the back? Yeah, that back And the 400? Yeah, of course And the 500? Yeah

12:26Phil Tufnell: Who is it that you really like putting the licks on? Yeah, who I don't feel sorry for was Andy Carrick. Did you ever play Brian Lara Cricket on the PlayStation? It was always... Was it something like that? Why did he do that, Phil? I don't know.

12:52Phil Tufnell: Brian, would Viv Richards have been an idol to you when you were growing up? Yeah, a huge idol. You've had good experience there, but it's great, you know, like in 75, 76 when they were playing in Australia. I was a little kid, small house, three bedroom, and cricket started maybe about 8 p.m. in Trinidad, 8, 9 p.m. the Australian time, 15 hours ahead of Trinidad. And I could hear my dad's radio in the room. We had school the next day, so he allowed us to listen to the first session. And then we had to go to bed, and his bedroom is just at the top, and we can hear his radio, but we had ours on.

13:32So when his door cracked, you know, we were going to a little bit of a snow. You know, 10, 11, 12 o 'clock, me and my six bigger brothers listening to cricket. And then, obviously, fast forward, I got an opportunity to play with him. And my first test match was in Trinidad. And I got the letter from the board, you're on the team, report 9 a.m. tomorrow morning for practice. and I got there at 8, started a little practice on the Queens Park over with my brother, and then the team arrived, and this is all my heroes, Viv, Greenwich, Haynes, Markham Marshall, everybody, all the big boys, and they went into the dressing room, tiny dressing room back in those days, and I said to my brother, you know, time I go, say hello to my teammates, and whilst I walk into the dressing room, my cricket bat came flying out of the dressing room, everything just all over the place.

14:27I picked it up, packed it back, and I walked down to the dressing room, and where I placed my bag is where Sir Vivian placed his bag. Oh, no. So I spent the first five days of my test career in the bathroom. Is that right? Crazy. Six brothers? Yeah, six brothers. All sisters.

14:46Phil Tufnell: One brother who was the starter at the golf course. In Trinidad. Charles? Robert. Robert. Yeah, Richard, yeah, they love golf. Yeah. He was a starter, wasn't he? Yeah, he's still there. Six brothers, four sisters. Yeah, 11 of us. I batted as number 10.

15:04Sir Alastair Cook: He had to play well to get up the order.

15:07Phil Tufnell: My mother had 13 brothers and sisters. 13 of them? 14. Did she? Yeah. The Aspens. Don't mess with the Aspens in Accrington. Don't go anywhere near them. I've got thousands of cousins who I don't know who they are. Brad, you know, in India we see a lot of young players come through and you kind of read about these scores that they get. Pajara's been working with us this week and he got 330 when he was 13 years of age. When you were a kid, were you getting huge, huge numbers? No, no, no. I mean, I was cricket back in the day in school. I played at all levels. I played when I was about form 2, age 13.

15:46I played under 14, which was Monday, Tuesday. Wednesday, Thursday was on the 16th. And I'm talking about 3 p.m. till 6. So 30 overs on one, under 14th. 40 overs, so they are on the 16th. And then Friday and Saturday, you start at about 2 p.m. all day Saturday. And that's the first 11, which is on the 19th. So at school, that was it. That was it. I mean, you hardly got a chance to, you know, you have to declare and stuff. So I heard these big scores. My first big score actually was of Toronto-Tobago on the 19th in Barbados playing against Jamaica, getting 196. And then my first double was 277 in my whole, yeah.

16:30In your test. Yeah, so I didn't have those big scores. Maybe in the streets. I bought it for five days after school, but that's about it.

16:38Phil Tufnell: But what was the key? Did you feel you were always naturally gifted or was it a lot of hard work as well? Well, I think playing cricket with kids like my bigger brothers, you know, in the streets fighting for a knock, you know. And one of the reasons why I think I was very good at spin is because we'd take the flannel ball, the tennis ball, and they would chuck it into the pitch. So that would spin a mile. And so I learned to play spin a lot. In Barbados, they tape the ball and they go on the beach and, you know, their bowler took 95 miles an hour. They can play good fast bowling. My ability to play a spin was, yeah, and it's just that mentality of when you get a knock on the streets, you know, you're not going to get one.

17:23If you get a knock on Monday evening, you're not going to get one until about Wednesday. So you really got it hanging there. But when you say the streets? Well, on an evening. So I live on Mitchell Street, you know, in Santa Cruz. And on there, there's going to be 15, 20 kids, you know, in different families up and down both sides of the street. and we put a bear case as a wicket or a piece of galvanized, like a roofing with a stick behind it, stumps up there, and there's four or five cricket balls and they're throwing it down at you. And you dare not hit it in the neighbour's yard because you're going to be out.

17:59So you're there, you know, sort of... Michael Hudson would have done well just poking. Were you always an attacking player then? Because if you only had one chance to bat with your ten other brothers, you thought, I ain't giving it away. No, no. Every time I watch you bat, and lucky enough for that one time to see you, and I have you right at the top of someone of the ability I've just never seen before. I was like, when I was 19, I was thinking, that is the best I've ever seen.

18:23Phil Tufnell: Did you model yourself on him? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm modeling. He had a simple bat for a while. You were grey nickels for a while. I was left-handed. That's it. A good starting point. But surely, you're only going to bat once, and you've got ten other brothers going to bat above you. You think, I'm just going to hang in there. But you never batted like that. No, I hung in there. I think one of the things that helped my aggressive or attacking side of my game is I played one test match in 1990 in Pakistan, December. And my next test match was 1992. So that's almost like 14, 15 months. But in between there, there was a World Cup and about 21-day games.

19:01We used to play the Benson Hedges in Australia. And you want to play in the team. And then all of a sudden you find yourself batting and pushing in the gaps. And, you know, the first time I hit a proper six was at the Gabba against Craig McDermott. I didn't know I could do it. I was actually literally playing international cricket when I did that. So I found a way now how to score quickly and to find gaps. You know, I was good at finding gaps all the time in terms of, like, playing in my backyard or in my garage with plant pots. So this would actually literally this could be a day, you know, when I was a kid.

19:37I'll be batting here, this here, that'll be there. And I have to find his little gutter.

19:41Sir Alastair Cook: I'm just going to move my coffee cup a bit straight. You need to put a few over here for your toffees. What I remember about playing against Brian, it was you used to score in blocks of 10 or 15. You know, you boys, you know, lovely, lovely, lovely. But you'd go, boom, what do you think you're bowling all right? Next thing you look up, you've got 35. You've got 35? He thought, where's that come from? Where's that come from? And then he's bowling away, bowling away. You know, OK, nice shot. He's got 70. Where's he got 70? So you're right, it just... Angus Fraser used to pull his hair out at that 35.

20:20Sir Alastair Cook: Gussie. Oh, Gussie. Poor brother. He was coming in, he was coming in. Like that. And you just kept doing him through there. Like that. And we had... I don't know who was at slip, but we had him... Right, we're going to have him second slip. Boom, a little bit finer. Right, OK, no, go back to first. Bump, went through. No, third. Pretty much. He went to another mile in the slip.

20:41Phil Tufnell: When he got 375 against the team you were in, can you remember pre-match what the discussions of how to bolt to him were? Top of off stump. Top of off stump.

20:51Sir Alastair Cook: We didn't really listen in those days anyway.

20:53Phil Tufnell: Didn't Gussie said, I wanted to sledge him, but what's the point? Well, absolutely.

20:58Sir Alastair Cook: There was all that going on. It was great. We had gravy. Gravy in Antigua. Gravy in Antigua. Was it Chickie's Disco? Chickie's Disco and Gravy, yeah. Kingdale. Gravy, he used to have like a platform. Yeah, he did. And hang on the... He was a fit, strong guy. He'd sort of pull himself up and sort of start going like that and the music would be going... Dressed as Margaret Thatcher. Dressed as Margaret Thatcher with a pair of pads and a bat in his head. That's it. And there was all... Occasionally he got married and he'd go his wedding dress up. Yes, that's so cool. He had a few songs, didn't he?

21:34Sir Alastair Cook: The atmosphere. I mean, we sort of knew it was bloody coming as well. Yeah. What's that song you used to sing? Well, no, all the boys, we'd get in, we'd get into the coach on the way to the ground and the bloke would be going, Brian's going to get you today, Phil. You know? We'd shut him up. You know what I mean? Or, you know, Kirtley, Kirtley's going to get you. You know, you made songs up of the opposing team. It was brilliant. The atmosphere. And then when Brian, I can still remember, Chrissie Lewis bowled it, didn't he? And he's come back to me, I'm at mid on. And we're all, fuck it, we're knackered, we can't get him out.

22:12We're never going to get him out, we're never going to get him out.

22:14Sir Alastair Cook: Like that, so I said, what shall I do? You know, what shall I do? I said, listen, make him bump, you know, don't just give him a little, you know, make him it. Was this for the record? This was for the record, yeah, and Chrissie's gone up there and bang. And the place went mental. The game stopped for about 20 minutes, didn't it? Chicken sellers came on, everyone was dying, Everyone was dancing. Sir Garfield came out. He did, he did, he did. Were you coach? No. It was the most amazing 20 minutes I think I've had in mid-cricket. I sat down, I just sat down on the boundary edge and just everyone was running about.

22:45Sir Alastair Cook: It was incredible. Have you still got the bat? Yeah, that bat. And the 400? Yeah, of course. And the 500? Yeah, that's there.

22:55Phil Tufnell: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair.

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24:25Phil Tufnell: Of all those, so you've faced a few English attacks. Is there one bowler that you kind of look back at facing thinking, yeah, I fancy... You've probably got five or six, but is there one that you like hitting even more? Go on, go on. Who is it that you really like putting the licks on? The top two. Go on. Putting the licks on is, you know, who I don't feel sorry for was Andy Karak.

24:53Sir Alastair Cook: What did I tell you?

24:55Phil Tufnell: So when I'm coach, we had that game at Jamaica, which is 60 balls and cancelled. So we're moving to Trinidad. So they put another game in Trinidad, put another one. So we play back-to-back in Trinidad. And everybody does the media stuff. And our media interview Caddy. How are you going to... Brian Law is a wonderful player. How are you going to deal with... I've studied him. And I'm watching this, I thought, what's coming here? I think I've got the ball for him. I've studied him. I thought, for fuck's sake. Go to a... Oh, sorry. Play the test match. Yeah. Lunch. Yeah. Not out. Yeah. Opening up after.

25:41Phil Tufnell: Caddy. 19 he went for. He kept whacking his feet. Cover his head at that. Yeah. And then, so, it finished. even Stephen after that, I think there were one each at Trinidad. And I've done the interview and I'm a bit... I said, if our ballers had done the job, we'd have been two up. Yeah, I can't remember that. I said, they'd just not done the job. Cassie got eight for dinner. So they get Caddy then, they bring Caddy, our media, what they like. So the coach has had a little pot. So can we speak to Andy Caddy? Your coach says that if you'd have done your job, well, he's a fucking prick.

26:20Phil Tufnell: Oh dear So can it Can it Can it Can it So Brian will probably remember that you put a do on at your house you put a party on at your house in that Trinidad test match and he was mates I don't think he was still mates with Atherton but they played junior cricket together Atherton and Brian and he put this party on at the test match and we all rocked up there and did the government give your house or something. You were doing a house up. You were doing a house up. You were doing it. It was brilliant. And there was a, we were staying at the hotel at the bottom. Oh, yeah. It was a, it was a hotel.

26:54Phil Tufnell: No, that's the bar. The Hilton. Hilton, where? The bar, yeah, the bar. Pelican. Pelican. Oh, the Pelican, that was it. Everybody were rocking in there. I mean, you'd have been in there. Yeah. I certainly was. He was. The Pelican underneath and next door to this Hilton. Yeah. And the Hilton were upside down, wasn't it? Your bedrooms were down below, underground or something like that. The Hilton Bar.

27:20Sir Alastair Cook: Yeah. Yeah, that was a good spot. Come on, man. Come on, man. Come on, man. We want to know number two. We want to know number two. So the guy who I didn't feel sorry for was Andy Calley because he felt like every time he played a good shot off for him it's because he bowled a bad ball. And it's not because, you know. So every time I destroyed him, it was fine. But the guy who I really felt sorry for was the guy who he found the middle of my bat all the time. That was Matthew Hugga. He just fell in the middle of the... Every day, in swing at the middle of my back. Out swing at the middle of my back.

27:48So I used to feel sorry for him when Mikey put him on, you know. Old Hogster. We looked in it with the scorecard the other day when he got four. You bowled quite a lot in that. I bowled 13 overs, yeah.

27:59Phil Tufnell: He was actually out on nought, you know, caught behind. Did you hit it? No, of course. DRS? First of all, I walk when I hit it, right? So Michael heard a noise and the rest of the England team heard a noise. I heard a noise as well, but you have to feel it on your bat. You don't just walk. And most badders don't walk anyway. I saw some guys, edge balls, the first slipper don't walk. So there was a sound, but there's no feel of the bat. Good delivery of Hammerson, pitch just outside Legstone, went across me, played, held my position, went back. Everybody's gone up. And the umpire said not out. Slipper?

28:33No, they've gone up, yes. Straight away? Oh, straight away. Yeah, they all did.

28:36Phil Tufnell: No, they've gone up straight. Oh, without question, yeah. But you then did manage to stay out there for about eight hours and destroy us. When did you know, in the first time when you broke the record, 375, was there a number you got to and you thought, because I'll give you a clue, when you got to about 125 in Antigua, the bowlers were coming up to me going, he's on for the record here. I went, he's 250 behind. So we had a feeling that you had your eyes in, you had your kind of flow. When did you kind of get a feeling that the records could be broken? I mean, you've got to go back first of all to understand it.

29:11I had 100 runs in six innings. We lost all three test matches, and I think I had a bulk of that 100 runs in Barbados. I got about 30, 30, you know, two 30s. But I felt I was getting into a little bit of form. And obviously losing against England 4-0 in the Caribbean is something that you didn't want. So I think from Barbados coming into Antigua, and I was hesitant to bat first because obviously if you want to draw a test match, let them make as much as possible, save the follow-on and bat. But I saw the pitch and I was like, no way you're going to bowl first than this. So we batted. And I think when I got to 100 runs, I knew for a fact that we are going to go for a big total, make sure that we're not here to necessarily win the test match.

29:57We're here to make sure that we don't lose. And when I got to 100, I realized that Hammerson, who was the most dangerous, he didn't want to bowl much. If you look at the stats, I think he's the only one who didn't go for 100. he came off at 96 or something like that and look at that I reckon I reckon he bowled I reckon because we looked at how many overs Trez bowled 18 overs didn't he Trez but I'm going to ask he did he bowled 18 overs as I was looking yesterday like if I was batting on a flat wicket you'd think oh cash in I'll get 200 like try and get 200 like the difference of that I'm going to try and get 400 like where's that come from like where's the 400 in your head coming from I can't get my I just can't get my head around that 400.

30:40It's not the highest score I've ever made. No, but I'm still, I don't know. Like 200, like you think that, you know, batters and things. Yeah, but you really think I'm thinking about 400. No chance. I get 100. Yeah, but you must have thought. You get 100, you get a double, you look at the bowling attack, you can tell the guys don't really want to turn up. You know, Jones and Hoggard. Hoggard would bowl his life out, which is, you know. Hoggy bowled 18 overs. Yeah, Hoggy did not. Hoggy bowled 18 overs. He got injured.

31:09Phil Tufnell: I think he was smart. I think he probably did. How much is Hamas? Army balled 37 overs. For 97. One for 92. Army balled 37. Slintoff bowled 35. Simon Jones bowled 29. Gareth Batty bowled 52. Oh, yeah. Eyeballed 13. Triscothic bowled at 18 overs. What's he bowl? Oh, a million dollars. A million dollars, yeah. Everyone had a go. So he must have bought over 200, you think. Yeah, it's on. When did Hayden break the record before? And when you broke it, were you annoyed? No, I wasn't annoyed. I was asleep. Jamaica, my agent lawyer called me. He's in London. He said, you need to have a number for you to call.

31:48I said, why? Because I think he did a lot in that day. So he might have went to sleep at one something, and then he scored a couple of hundreds on that day. He said, I have a number for you to call. The prayer of the dressing room. I said, why? He said, someone just broke your record. So I called the dressing room. It was very noisy, very loud, and I got too much. You congratulated him. But, you know, funny enough, I felt that for that 10-year period, nine-year period, I had a lot of stress because of those two records. And one of my main things was to actually try to be a good captain or a good leader and not have that strangled me, you know, that double world record.

32:23So I wasn't perturbed about it. I didn't worry too much about it. But here came England 10 years later.

32:32Sir Alastair Cook: Did the captaincy, did you like the captaincy? Did it affect your passion? No, my batting is, my scores are very similar. I think it actually enhanced my batting. But I think my problem with my captaincy is sort of like man management. I believe that when I grew up, when you entered the West Indies team, you had to be a finished product. You know, I got in there at 19, 20. My team was full of, you know, great players. So to get in, to push that door down, you had to have done something very special for his class cricket. And I think that, you know, when you look at it 10 years later, when I became captain, you expected the same from the young players.

33:09But these guys were coming in with averages in their 30s and 40s. They had maybe one or two good scores. They had the potential. They looked good. They got in the team. But they just weren't seasoned enough. And I felt that that's where I let my teammates learn, to understand or have empathy with players that weren't at the level yet and taking them through the early stages because, you know, drop catches and, you know, not learning. What about, sorry, what about like the captains? Because obviously when we captained England, it's all, you know, there's not much politics in English cricket in terms of selection.

33:43You try and pick the best team you can, you don't get them always right. But captain of the West Indies with the different islands. And, you know, if you've got a selector from your island. Different countries. It is different countries. That must have been, behind the scenes must have been quite awkward. Yeah, it's very awkward, especially if you're not doing well. And, you know, a lot of people from different islands have, you know, their own opinion. So that is very tough. If you're doing well, like Clive Lloyd or Sir Vivian Richards, who never lost a series, you tend to have the entire Caribbean coming together.

34:13But the minute you lose, there seems to be a problem. How did you deal with pressure? Pressure. I welcome pressure. Yeah, I think I had a period where, I mean, the lowest point in my career would have been after the 95 series in England, 96, 97 England came to the Caribbean in 98 when I first started as captain I think 96, 97 handling that stardom of just being a cricketer one day and all of a sudden you've got two world records you've got everybody breathing down your throat and the way I handle it I could do it differently if I had to do it again that's mostly my most pressure period I think I'd be more accommodating.

35:03I would appreciate a little bit more. I'd understand, you know, that when you're at the top of the tree, you create a lot of detractors. I couldn't understand why people were attacking me. So when, you know, when you started attacking me, I started pulling back. And so that affected my cricket a little bit. I think I embraced it about 99. I was playing against Australia. We just came from South Africa. And we lost 5-0, 6-1 in the one days, 5-0 in the Test Series. And I was dead. I was done. I knew I was done. And they happened to give me the captaincy again for two Test matches. And I'm not afraid to say it.

35:44The first Test match was in Trinidad. And I believe that that's the reason why they gave me the captaincy. And first time a West Indies captain was there on probation. I got a team that I didn't want. We lost in Trinidad 51. We scored 51 in the fourth innings. And the Australian media was very sympathetic. The West Indian media, I wouldn't call any names, but they were ready. That's it, sharpening their knives. And I remember, and I'll call names, I remember seeking Tony Cozier. And this is something I didn't do for about three years, because I didn't understand why this man was attacking me. And I talked cricket with Tony Cozier.

36:23I said to him, you know, listen, forget our relationship. What is going on here with West Indian cricket? and we said, you have a terrible team. And all of a sudden I felt like if, you know, a few punks came off my shoulder. Guess who I ran to? Mikey Holden. I didn't speak to him for quite a long time. I said, Mikey. And even though we had that strange relationship, we talked Westonese cricket. And that, I think, was the watershed moment in my career. I went to Jamaica, my last test match as a captain, but I felt free. I felt like, you know, I wasn't carrying any burden from the past. And that's when things changed.

36:56I got a nice double over there. And, yeah, we went to... A nice double. Yeah, it was a nice double, I say, you know. I mean, a lot of people say that the 153 in Barbados was the best. I believe a week earlier, in Jamaica, under the pressure, walking out to toss, being booed, everything. I think that showed me how strong I was as an individual.

37:19Phil Tufnell: It's interesting that, you know, one of the greatest there's ever been and people are attacking. Why would you ask? That's jealousy, surely. We were going through a really tough period. And one of the things in Jamaica, that second test match, they were ready. I mean, when I walked out of the toss with Steve Hoy, he said, William, why don't you do these people? I said, nothing, but this is the last time they're going to have a chance to do that. And, you know, as a captain, you lost the toss, they're going to go to bat. As a captain, you take that five meters in front of your teammates and you take them out.

37:48I was scared because the headly stan is right there, right? They used to sell Red Stripe, the bottle drink. So I was really scared. I was honestly scared. Didn't get that bad. I mean, they were up in arms. And as I walked on past the rope, I felt an arm on my shoulder. Guess who it was? What? Courtney Walsh. Oh. The best thing, I mean, he being Jamaican, he's the guy who I replaced as captain. Yes. Put his hand around my shoulder and walked me onto the field. Class. Oh, wow. Class. Class. That was the most animus thing anybody's ever done. Yeah, that's class. You won that game? Yeah, we won that game.

38:25We won that game in four days. And then we went to Barbados, and that was like, you know, that amazing test match where we won again.

38:34Phil Tufnell: How did it go with Warnie? I mean, he's such an effect. Did you get on with him? Of course, of course. We had a great time together. Really? I'm not surprised. He's a great man. Would have been one of the best you've faced. He's the best. He's the best. Yeah, he's the best. And, you know, I'd walk out to bat against Murrily, and I'm confused. You know, I got that 688 runs in three matches, and the first half of Murrily, I'd be confused. I'd play a sweep shot down to deep backwards square for a single. You know, I'd play a sweep shot again. And then all of a sudden, you know, because it's the guys, the other guys didn't read him.

39:14He's like, oh, take out the bat. No, no, no, bat, bat for Lara. Nothing, nothing. Let's move everybody up. And all of a sudden, the pressure came off. But Murri Lee gave me more pressure than Shane. But I'd walk out to bat against Shane, I'd ball be coming off the middle, every ball, and about 2 p.m., 3 p.m., he just produces this magical delivery or spell. And that's why I rate him higher, because I think he was mentally stronger. And obviously with his bowling attack and the pitches that he bowled on, which favored the McGraths and McDermott Sunday, for him to pick up that amount of wickets, very, very special.

39:50I think his strength is mental. He's got little fingers as well.

39:55Phil Tufnell: He's stubby little fingers. I love that. Strong. He had an enormous wrist. Yeah. He had a huge wrist. And you could hear him in practice that he'd let it go. And you'd hear that zzz as he's going down. Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair.

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41:48Phil Tufnell: Where are we at with West Indies cricket, Brian? Well, I think, you know, we have a lot of guys who sort of,

42:03they're deciding on what they want to do with their career. So you have the aggressive players like the Purans who just retired at age 29, 30. I think it's pretty transparent why you would retire because there's five or six leagues around the world and you're picking up quite a large sum of money with those leagues. So yes, and I have no problem with that, right? I mean, I don't think the West Indies Cricket Board and administration has done anything to keep guys loyal to the Western East cricket, like, say, England has done or Australia has done, and, I mean, India, you know, is doing. So our guys have to go out.

42:39And when you see guys like Kane Williamson and South Africans doing the same, you realize that this is where these guys are going to, you know, look after their families. So in terms of Western East cricket, we have that issue. I think now where we played first-class cricket and some of us even played county cricket to try to get into the West Indies team, we are now using the West Indies team as a stepping stone, you know, as a stage for us to get, you know, contracts or other. And that is not a fault of the player.

43:09Phil Tufnell: You know, that's a fault of... No, it isn't. But, you know, the big three, that can't be right, that they take all the money. England, Australia, England take all the money. They get the big broadcast deal. You've got to have a more even distribution to allow West Indies, New Zealand, Sri Lanka to compete. It's just so sad. Nicholas Prurant's a wonderful player. I think that he's not going to play for the West Indies. At that age, that can't be right. What the governing body should be doing is an infrastructure, particularly like the West Indies, of facilities. They've got to provide them to make it an attractive game, to make it an attractive game to get into, remunerative as well, that it's well paid and then you've got your other stuff like your franchise you can go along World Cricket needs West Indies and they need a competitive West Indies they do and I think they're the best team in the 80s team would be arguably and you could talk about they're the best team there's ever been four rapid fast ballers a batting line up like you've never seen a lot of them were magnificent players with a battery of fast ballers and think think of all the quicks who couldn't get in who didn't get in the team Somebody like Colin Croft, who had a great career.

44:23Phil Tufnell: Played for Middlesex, played with Wainfield. Wayne Daniel, Sylvester Clark, Ezra Morsley. Jesus, they were rapid, them guys. Sylvester Clark. Terrified. Rapid. But it's, I don't know, I'm starting to be corrected, but I understood that back in the days of the 70s and 80s, when we were the best, I knew for a fact, every other year we were in Australia. Every two years we were in England or England, the Caribbean. And I understood that back in those days, the fees paid to the Westernies were, you know, relatively, were quite handsome. So to go to Australia, you know, Westernies would get, you know, back in the day, whatever, a few million dollars.

45:03Australia would come to the Westernies and they would pay their players and they would ask, now we've got 10 ,000 people in the stadium, you've got to charge, you know, three US dollars for people. So we couldn't pay them. But they were happy to come to us, handle that bill, as long as we come back to Benson Hedges or we come back for a Frank Royal Trophy series. And that was stopped in the late 90s where ICC said that each country is going to receive the same amount of money for traveling to wherever. So what West Indies was collecting from Australia, right, and not playing Australia when they came, that all changed.

45:40So we would get, you know, call it$100 to, you know, a test match in Australia. $500. And when Australia comes, we've got to give them the same. But we don't have the gates. We don't have the TV rights. So that's where we started to lose that financial position.

45:57Phil Tufnell: Is there love still there in the Caribbean? You mentioned your school days playing cricket. Is it still the same in terms of young kids want to play the game of cricket? Yes, there's more distractions, obviously. There's a lot more distractions. Back in my day, it was football, cricket, a little bit of athletics. But now there's everything, and the big killer is this. You've got a lot of kids who concentrate on their phones and their computers and spend time on TikTok and all these stuff, so we're losing quite a few. And it was always going to be diluted with the extra sport and the American influence.

46:35But I still believe that with only 1 ,000 test cricketers, or less, much less than 1 ,000, 1 ,000 West Indian cricketers in 100 years, you don't need a big pool you just need the talented pool and you can find it go find it you don't need hundreds of thousands playing cricket you just need a few playing cricket look at them concentrate on them and provide them with the best and that's what we're not doing

47:00Phil Tufnell: you need finance to do that to get the best people you know they've had some wonderful bowlers batters are they involved in West Indies cricket I know Kirtley Ambrose was coached for a little while and then jettisoned he's out he seemed a bloody decent fella to me Kirtley Ambrose, a wonderful bowler. So you need the best people to identify the best talent. But you need finance. You've got to pay them properly. And facilities, improved facilities, make it attractive for young people, men and women, to go and play at these facilities. So it all comes down to finance from the governing body. Spot on.

47:35Phil Tufnell: Has anyone around us four been to a Brian Lara party at his house? Yeah, I have. Have you been to one? I haven't yet. I haven't yet. So your house is used, it's the Trini Carnival, isn't it? It's Carnival. Let me get to the point. The last 20, what, 2000? Yeah, my house was finished in about 98. Yeah. And there's no rooms in my house named Angus, Fraser or Caddick. There's none there, right? There's none there. But, yeah, I do have a nice event on the Sunday before Carnival, Monday and Tuesday. Bit of soccer. Bit of soccer. Yeah, you might not have turned up, but a lot of celebrities have. You must have turned up.

48:18You'd have turned up. Listen, just tell me what you charge and I'll get you there.

48:24Phil Tufnell: What about, he was an underestimated player, Karl Hooper. Oh, good player. Quickie to him, Karl Hooper.

48:30Sir Alastair Cook: That's a great player of Spain.

48:32Phil Tufnell: Do you remember that delivery? Do you remember, I can't remember, where Nasser and Karl Hooper. Oh, yeah, yeah. It bounced and rolled all along the floor. Nasser on the top. It did. With Arderton's captain, you know, and we've come back and I'm sort of sat on the balcony there and others and he's got a bit of a chuckle on. Nass has come in, he's thrown this, he's kicked that, he's swearing and shouting. He just calms down and comes and sits with us. I think I'd have said to him, should have played forward.

49:02Sir Alastair Cook: Listen, also as well, he then later found out it was the seventh ball of the over.

49:07Phil Tufnell: Oh, yeah, it was. It was. Is that right? So the umpire, was he called Nicholls? Yeah, Eddie Nicholls. Yeah, Eddie Nicholls. He used to get that one out. So just imagine telling Nass that. And it's seventh ball Nass.

49:22Sir Alastair Cook: Right. It was a fabulous atmosphere when I played at the West Enders.

49:26Phil Tufnell: Oh, brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Great place. Right, we'll finish with some community questions. Right, Brian. First one's at you. Did you ever play Brian Lara Cricket on the PlayStation? I've played it every time they launch a new version of the game and they bring this young kid who just destroys me. What was your highest score on the PlayStation? Not much. Did you meet the record? Not much, no. Not much. No? OK, let's go to the next one. What annoys you most? All around the table, what annoys us most about the modern game? that playing for your country isn't the biggest thing yeah that's the I second that I think finding a way to bring that back would be yeah and I don't blame it's not a blame of the players or anything I just think there's got to be a way of keeping the international cricket money well yeah and whether you've got to tax whatever I think that the thing that annoys me most about the game is the pie is not split right yeah there's so much money that the ICC seriously that is my biggest frustration If we want to get to a stage, and it might be two tiers of cricket, the only way that's going to be fair is if the Pais...

50:39Phil Tufnell: But I'm not saying it has to be exactly the same, but the likes of the West Indies, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, New Zealand, they've got to get more of the Pais. So you can pay your players a nicer sum of money that they will stay playing for their country for longer. That's my biggest bugbear. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, right, let's go. Just an easy one for us. we all tour but in England what would be your favourite thing to eat when you were on tour in England yeah fish and chips fish and chips mushy peas not necessarily late at night you know

51:14Sir Alastair Cook: you like your mushy peas well yeah no no corn soup Trigger Dad corn soup corn soup little bit of jerk down at the Pelican Bar little fella outside with the big thing going lovely that was. Nice and Pete.

51:30Phil Tufnell: All right, we'll finish with this one. Brian, the toughest team that you ever played. Not your toughest bowler. Who was the best team that you ever played? Australia, by far. Steve Waugh, captain? Yeah, yeah. 95 that defeat in the West East for the first time in 15 years. And from then, unable to turn things around. So they're the toughest, but also brought out the best in me. Brian it's been a pleasure can you give us an out of ten for our expert tutorialist about batting because he's got legs every week what I must say he looked walking to the wicket he looked a lot more confident than when Ambrose had the ball he literally walk out of the bath like that.

52:26He said, Brian, they couldn't do it. I'm not going to do it.

52:31Phil Tufnell: Brian, brilliant. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Thank you.

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53:24Life's a trip. Make the most of it at bestwestern.com. No additional purchase necessary for sweeps. See bonus points, TNCs, and sweeps rules for details. Hi, pod fans. Max Rushton here from the chart-topping Guardian Football Weekly Podcast. Don't like to crow. If you enjoyed the World Cup with us, you'll be glad to know we're back for the new Premier League season. Expect three episodes a week, questionable predictions, and the biggest stories in soccer from the Premier League to the Champions League and beyond. Watch now on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

53:54Phil Tufnell: Thanks for listening and thanks to our partners, Betfair. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and you won't miss an episode. And if you want to support the show, please leave us a five-star review and help others find it too. See you next time.