Dinesh Karthik & Mo Bobat at Lord's! Inside London Spirit & The Hundred! | Stick to Cricket EP 54

0:00Michael Vaughan: Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners Betfair. Hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

0:30discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on-trail navigation. Download the free app today and make the most of your summer with AllTrails. Do you keep hearing podcast ads like this one, for example, but always wonder how you actually get involved with them for your own brand or organization? Well, it's easier than you think. We're Acast, and we give you the platform to do it all yourself. Browse thousands of popular podcasts, choose the shows that match your perfect audience, set your budget and launch and if you want a hand our podcast specialists are there to help you launch with confidence this is podcast advertising without barriers get started at acast.com slash advertise right lads we're at the home and cricket the home dressing room lords this

1:19Michael Vaughan: is uh this is special uh the hundred starting look who we're at london spirit i'm not supporting

1:25Phil Tufnell: London spirits you've meant me put this shirt on I haven't got anything on yeah where's cat where is he he's asleep

1:36Phil Tufnell: is that your place that was my spot was it where were you chef you were I was

1:46Michael Vaughan: over here me too I was here I was here

1:50Phil Tufnell: That was me. You said it was a bit different though, wasn't it?

1:51Michael Vaughan: We had a massive table in the middle. The fridge used to live there, that's why I was here. I could sit and get a pot.

1:58David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Did not people shout, Oi, Topf, let's go on, you throw us a drink. That's why I didn't want to sit next to the fridge.

2:02Phil Tufnell: Get us a can. Where were you, Phil? I was in that corner. I was in that corner. I was in that corner, yeah. Didn't there used to be a writing desk here? Yes, a couple of big chairs. Cut the big chairs. Easy chairs, writing desk. That's where Beefy used to sit. No, Beefy used to sit in that big chair there. In Flintoff and Adderton. No, Freddie was there.

2:19Michael Vaughan: Yeah, Freddie was there, Strauss was in that corner with Kevin, and then Peterson, they were together. Rooty, I swear Rooty's there now, aren't he? That's where Rooty's there, I think he is. Yeah, well... This is where... Matt Pryor got out. Yeah. And he's come through here, aren't he? And he's launched his bat. No, no, no, I was there.

2:35David 'Bumble' Lloyd: No, he put it down really gently. He, like, really gently touched it.

2:38Michael Vaughan: Cookie, come on. He's launched his bat and he's springing it, boing, straight through the window.

2:44Phil Tufnell: Yeah, glass all on the members. Yeah, they were starting to find a little drink. Let's get on the balcony, come on.

2:51Michael Vaughan: Oh, it doesn't get any better than this. Look at this, Phil.

2:57Phil Tufnell: Phil, where did you sit on the balcony? I was usually here. Yeah, you there. Or that corner, because I used to have a little fag there. You get away with it. And I could just get away with it and then just pop it down there. Marvellous here, isn't it?

3:09David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Always smaller than they look there, aren't they?

3:11Phil Tufnell: Oh, they've got rid of the metal benches. I've got one of them. Oh, have you? What, from the dressing room? Yeah.

3:16Michael Vaughan: What, from the balcony? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. When they extended it out, didn't they?

3:22Phil Tufnell: Yeah.

3:22Michael Vaughan: I don't know how much, maybe half a metre it went out. When they did that, I happened to be here one day and they were kind of getting rid of a few things and I went, what are you doing with the bench?

3:31Phil Tufnell: But it was from the home dressing room bench. What have you done with it? In the garden? I've got a... Is that the Warner stand? Is that the... Yeah, that's the Allen. Yeah, that's the... I've got a bench from there. Have you? Yeah. I tell you what, it looks like a nice restaurant up there now. Look at that. Lovely, yeah.

3:49David 'Bumble' Lloyd: What are your favourite memories?

3:51Michael Vaughan: Show from here, can we not? A couple of beers and just do the show from here. What's your favourite memories from this balcony?

3:57Phil Tufnell: I'm not sure from this balcony, but... Certainly winning the Gillette Cup here, 1975. Who'd you beat? I wish I knew. But we played every year. We used to come down every year and play the Gillette Cup final. Because we were always in the final. And we were always in this dressing room. I can't remember which dressing room you'd be in. I'll tell you what we did do, though, which would be right up your street. We stayed just on Edgeware Road. It was called the Clarenum Court. I know exactly where it is. So we used to walk in. You've got a new blazer or a new suit. We used to walk from there because all your kit were in the day before.

4:36Phil Tufnell: And we used to walk through the Grace Gates as a team all together. Here we come again. I think they're big moments then. Big moments. We come in through the gates.

4:46Michael Vaughan: You'd have been playing when all the fans would have been down here celebrating, wouldn't you, when you win? 20 deep.

4:52Phil Tufnell: There is nothing wrong with a pitch invasion. What's the problem? We had pitch invasions all the time and nobody ever got there.

4:59Michael Vaughan: Apart from when Geoffrey Boycott punched someone. There's nothing right. What are you doing?

5:03Phil Tufnell: Get out of the fucking way.

5:05David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Cookie, what's your memory? My favourite has always been if you won a game here when everyone else has gone home. Because then you know it is just a privileged few, isn't it? The 20 ,000, 30 ,000 come and play, best ground in the world by miles. But actually, when you've just won a game and you're sat there with just a bit on the balcony, I tried to do it all the time because I thought, I can't do it now. And that was a lucky time. You put four or five days hard craft in and just the peace and quiet was very, very special. Socks off. Socks off. Boots off. Yeah.

5:36Phil Tufnell: Twinkle toes. Favourite memories. Privileged few. We are the few. We are the team.

5:43David 'Bumble' Lloyd: It's only, you know, now we've all played and we're lucky enough to play it, but we're not allowed. That is the one moment.

5:48Phil Tufnell: I've got a wonderful photo of we beat Sri Lanka here. I got Pfeiffer. Sorry to bring that up. Six Pfeiffer. Six Pfeiffer, I think it was Pfeiffer, and got on the honours board. And we'd just been sponsored by a very famous glass company. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was myself, Jack Russell, Big Sid Lawrence, God bless him, Hugh Morris, God bless him, and Phil DeFreitas. All sat on air with our new sunglasses. I remember them sunglasses. Yeah, wonderful. A couple of lads not here.

6:24Michael Vaughan: We had a... We beat Somerset in a final in 2002, I think it was here. And we were in the away dressing, we had family and friends, but we had a hell of a party. Yeah, hell of a party.

6:35Phil Tufnell: Well, it's a nice view for a button.

6:37Michael Vaughan: They don't kick you out, do they?

6:39David 'Bumble' Lloyd: They do not kick you out. And they keep bringing you up more and more. So you cannot drink no more.

6:44Phil Tufnell: Yeah. What a view, Mike, after a win. What a view after a win. It's a tough place to watch.

6:49David 'Bumble' Lloyd: When it's quiet and down, when it's quiet. A bit cramped. Yeah, you are.

6:52Michael Vaughan: It's when you're sat here and you think, oh, do I want to, oh, should I get some food? And Cameron used to be the dressing room attendant. Remember Cam? Just used to call him over, Cam, what have we got on the menu? You could choose whatever you wanted. Whatever you wish. But if you left your seat, somebody... Oh, he'd be taken, yeah. That's why you had to bring him over, because you didn't dare leave your seat. Come on, lads, let's have a walk around. I'll stay here. Yeah, it'd be lovely, isn't it? I'll just stay here.

7:18David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Just sit me... Let's bumble, let's bumble. Let's bumble, don't you? You stay on there, Phil. Yeah, no, no. We'll come and get you,

7:25Michael Vaughan: because I want to talk about the Middlesex Captions, why you weren't one.

7:30David 'Bumble' Lloyd: God, 2022, 2022. Three of the fuckers.

7:33Phil Tufnell: All right, that. with a physio, with a phys, give me a little foot massage. Oh, phys, me feet, me feet. Oh, phys, oh, can I have a little rub?

7:43Michael Vaughan: Oh. Lads, that's a new board, isn't it? That's just come recently. Cookie, when did it move to there? I don't know, it used to be there. But they're not the original boards, are they?

7:54Phil Tufnell: One, two, three, four. No, these are new. Yeah, these are new.

7:56Michael Vaughan: These are new. And what about over here, Middlesex Captains? They've got all this on this board. Where's Tuffman?

8:01Phil Tufnell: All right, Phil. I've just bowled five overs on that. I've shattered. Yeah, well bowled, mate. Put bargain on. Do you want a rub? Do you want your feet doing it? Do you want your feet? That would have been lively. That one. Yeah, good guy. That would have been lively. Yeah, it was. Oh, is that the Middlesex? How about got 83 to 97? Yeah, played all my time under, yeah. Really, 71 to 82. There he is, yeah.

8:27Michael Vaughan: Shaggy Udall, friend of the show.

8:29Phil Tufnell: Frase just did a year. You know Peter Parfait? Peter Parfait, yeah. Yeah, good after dinner speaker. Brilliant, absolutely. Winky Robbins. Well, he did.

8:41Michael Vaughan: 2022 was a dodgy year, I only had three. Oh, did we? And 2016. Oh, yeah. Was that T20? Four times at Middlesex there, Cat. Come on, what about this board here?

8:51Phil Tufnell: Yeah.

8:51Michael Vaughan: Who have we got on it? Sophie Eccleston. Well, you boys are up there. Look at this, Sophie Eccleston's first new arrival. Five for 118. That was last week. That was India last week.

9:00Phil Tufnell: Yeah. You boys are up here. Come on, aren't we?

9:03Michael Vaughan: Where's Tafnal?

9:04Phil Tufnell: There we are. There we are. P-C-R Tafnal. There you go. Very, very good side, that Sri Lankan side. Very good side. Yeah, Aravinda, Mahanamah, Granatunga. Very good. Very good. Are you sure they were all playing that game? Er... Two middle names?

9:21David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Why have you ended up with two middle names?

9:23Phil Tufnell: Eh? P-C-R. P-C-R Tafnal. He's posher than you think, I'm saying. He's aristocracy. Oh, I thought you were about that. They're on a tunda down the floor. Well, come on. Don't you boys get embarrassed. You boys absolutely marmalised it here, didn't you? How many... How many do you get? Vaughan? Vaughan, he like. Oh, look. My own roots got more than you. Well, Gooch. Gooch as well. Yeah, get your... Not a player. How many do you get?

9:48Michael Vaughan: Four.

9:48Phil Tufnell: Four. Where's Cook? I can't see Cook. Cook is going here. I'll sneak to the cover. Yeah, New Zealand, Bangladesh.

9:56David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Sri Lanka. Very, very good side.

9:59Phil Tufnell: They were a great side back in 2005 as well. How was your kit, Bangladesh? Got a little of a flatty. Did you win the toss and bet? Help yourself. Remember getting a waist-tie full toss just before lunch. Six. I think it was the first ever test. You had no six, Mike.

10:15Michael Vaughan: Well, well played, Sam. It's nice. It's special in here, isn't it? What about the arc down this? The what? The arc. Not your fart. There we go. Have you got a painting? Phil, have you got a painting? He's not even a member. Are you a member, Dave?

10:31Phil Tufnell: No. No. No.

10:33Michael Vaughan: No? MCC, no. MCC, no. Sir Alistair? Yeah, I used it for the first time. Yeah, I'm a member. Used it for the first time, loved it.

10:39David 'Bumble' Lloyd: So what are we going there then?

10:40Phil Tufnell: My appendix bursted in that toilet. No, it did. It burst in that toilet. We were playing knots. Big night? We walked out. It might have been a big night. They've walked out and Gat's turned around and gone, we've only got ten here. Where's the cat? like that, in fact they couldn't find me, I was on the floor. That hurts. I did mine as well. Oh, did you? Did yours have burst? Not burst.

11:03Michael Vaughan: Pivotinitis. Didn't have a burst. Colin Cowdery. Yeah. Lloyd Cowdery of Tumbridge. Yeah, that is a lovely, lovely picture, that one. That is a lovely picture. Are you in it, Varnie? You are somebody. Well, there is a picture of me somewhere. So, Phil, look, you're the batting expert, Phil. Just get this on camera, you're the batting expert, Phil. What's the walk, you come from the dressing room as a batter, what happens, you know?

11:23Phil Tufnell: Well, you're walking down, you know, come on, come on. Little one of those. When you bat it, you do that? Yeah. Touch the little one of them just before they go down. There's people on the stairs, aren't there? Yeah, we're members. Good luck, Kat. You were that, Kat. They're stuck in, Kat. See you in a minute. Oh, he's going out to the door, but no. But good luck, Kat. Is it that way? No, we're not. No, we're not. Is it that way? Just have a look at Sir Alistair on the way out. Oh, look at this. Come on. Look at this. Look at that. That's nice.

11:55Michael Vaughan: Jeans? No, no, chinos. I'm a chinos. What a great face.

12:00Phil Tufnell: I think that's a good one. Very good. Oh, that Nasser. Oh, he looks like he's been in a punch-up. Yeah. I think Graham looks like he's had a... Graham looks like he's had a bit of action, a little bit of... He looks like he's had a fight. How come yours is so nice? Yeah, yours is a better.

12:16David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Is this your house? Yeah. What, you've got a... Well, we couldn't think... We used to collect a few stumps and never really knew what to do with them. And my wife said, you fancy... Put them as the bastard. And do you know what? I like it. It's not too bad. I mean, some people think... You don't actually recognise it. You don't see it.

12:32Phil Tufnell: I mean, you're a bit of plaster here. You know what? You've got a bit of plastering, don't you? You're floored. Your floored is lovely, isn't it? Lovely. But... Stop. Parquet. Parquet. Look at that, by your nails, buddy. He's cutting your nails. Look at his nails. He's been lambing. That's why he did deliberately.

12:49David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Got a load of shit in his nails. He did it deliberately.

12:52Phil Tufnell: That's when I've been doing the old... Boys, on his question, both of you, you're not able, are you? On a portrait. No, I'm not able, no. These two, to have your portrait hanging up in Lourdes... ..cough be a bit special, that.

13:10Michael Vaughan: Well, number one is mine's not hung good.

13:13Phil Tufnell: I've seen you.

13:14Michael Vaughan: I'm very honoured to have, obviously, a portrait at the home of cricket. Yeah, but it seems to be hidden. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know why. So, Lannister?

13:23David 'Bumble' Lloyd: It's silly, isn't it? I don't... I never get my head round it. I came and actually... My dad had a photo next to it and... Yeah, I mean, you just... You don't ever think it would happen. Generally, you don't think it would happen. And actually, it's a... Yeah, I'm happy with it.

13:34Michael Vaughan: Come on, let's have a selfie in front of it. Oh, the old stick to cricket. Come on, Dave. Come on, Dave.

13:40David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Hey, you're in. Hello, mate. Thank you very much. Welcome. Lovely.

13:45Michael Vaughan: Oi, who's his hat for, then? Bottle of one. Who's that for?

13:49Phil Tufnell: Um, India team. Oh, I don't know whether they do.

13:53Michael Vaughan: Come on, let's have a selfie, lad.

13:55Phil Tufnell: I beg it. Why is yours not? Can you have a word? I will do. Are you on the board here? I should be. I should be. Where is your picture? 20 years.

14:07Michael Vaughan: 20 years, man and boy. Who's in charge of this? Are you in charge of this pavilion? Right, come on. We're here for the London spirit. Come on the spirit. Come on the spirit. Hello, toughers. You're very great, Chef. It suits you really well. I like it.

14:26Phil Tufnell: I would have loved to have played in a bit of kit like this.

14:29Michael Vaughan: Do you like it? Do you like the kit?

14:30Phil Tufnell: I like it.

14:32Michael Vaughan: It suits you. Dave?

14:38Michael Vaughan: Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. So just hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

14:50I don't think franchise cricket needs test cricket, that's for sure. You don't think so? No, why does franchise cricket need test cricket? There was a big fuss kicked up about Bethel, which Cookie kicked off, I think, about Bethel being at the IPL and not being here to prepare.

15:02David 'Bumble' Lloyd: English cricket is more important than an IPL and franchise. That's what I think, and apparently I'm not allowed to think it.

15:08Michael Vaughan: You look to me like you've got every ounce covered. Have you got a blocker? England is getting to a point, for some strange reason, they're finding a way to hate the IPM. And I think that can be a bit unfair.

15:21Phil Tufnell: You can't eat steak and chips every day of your life. You get a bit bored with it. We speak very exciting, spicy stuff. And people are not willing to watch the whole two-hour episode. Nobody has the time to watch it completely. Absolutely, dip in, dip out. That's the name of the game. I would say that for our sport, that you don't need 32 cameras. Dave,

15:38Michael Vaughan: we've got six in here.

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16:58Michael Vaughan: The 100, where does it start from your perspective, Mel? When you came in as, what's your official role? Director of Cricket. Director of Cricket. When you come in and operate a 100 franchise compared to a T20 franchise, RCB, what differs? Well, I don't know if anything differs across the formats, but what was different was it was a bit of a start-up. New owners, new time for the competition with new investment coming in. For me, overseeing men's and women's cricket, I've not done any women's cricket stuff before, so that was a bit of a learning curve. But essentially, it's a start-up. I remember the day I started in role, I was the only employee or person employed on the cricket side.

17:38Literally nobody else. No coaches, no analysts, no science and medicine staff, no ops team. So your job is to put all that team in place. You've got to put all that whole structure in place, yeah, and you've got to do that pretty quickly.

17:47Michael Vaughan: Yeah. And when you go into an auction, you mentioned the women's side of things that you haven't been involved in before. How do you start? What's your starting point to make sure that you try and get that right? So typically the way we like to start is you're trying to make sense of like what does it take to win this thing? You've got to have an understanding objectively around how do you actually win games in this competition and win the competition. And you also want the coach and the coaches to probably have a view on how we want to play. So you're kind of blending those two things all the time like what's the evidence tell you about winning and how do we want to play our cricket?

18:21And then that's your starting point I think. And once you've got that, you then look at different team structures, different combinations. You look at the talent that's available to you to pick from. And then from there, that kind of takes you down a process, and you do different types of scenarios with different selection options. You look at all the data. You look at all the video. You create depth charts. And then eventually you...

18:44Michael Vaughan: But when you're saying you're doing all this, at the start, you're on your own. Do you do all that by yourself in your front room, just looking at all this stuff? No, not at all. You surround yourself with good people. So very quickly you recruit an analyst. You get your head coach lined up, which is going to be really important. On the women's side, I recruited Heather to be GM because I felt like I needed a bit of help on that side. And then we appointed head coach as well. We've obviously got Louis doing the women's and Andy doing the men's. And then you start building out your coaching team.

19:11You work with your coaches to recruit the coaching team.

19:13Phil Tufnell: Do you have a budget? Is there a budget, a cap? Well, there's no cap on what you can spend on your support staff. There's a cap on your squad. Yeah, there's salary caps on your squad, but not your support staff. But you've got to argue with the board and get a budget signed off for you to recruit your staff as well. And that all starts off with a philosophy of how you are going to go about... Playing and winning, yeah. Playing and winning.

19:34Michael Vaughan: When you look into winning this event, clearly you've done a remarkable job at the Royal Challengers. Dinis will probably say it's because of the batting coach, but what you've done is incredible, winning it back-to-back. What have you found in terms of your research of how to win the 100. He won't give it away. I'm sorry for way too much because there's some competitive edge in some of that stuff. But some of the questions you ask is, we all have a deep understanding of T20 cricket. Well, how is it similar? How is it different? So understanding the power play in the 100 gives you slightly different answers to how we all recognise a power play in T20 cricket.

20:12I'm not going to reveal what we found, but there are differences. So you can try and work out what does that look like? You try and work out how does the middle of the game compare to a 20 over game and what we're used to and again we found a few differences how important is death bowling in these conditions also playing in the hundred there are often games when you're playing on the edge of a square like more so than you might be in the IPL well what does that mean for left and right handers so you're always doing comparison to what you think and what you know and what you're used to because you're trying to find truths and if you arrive at some truths you're then not dealing with like theories and subjectivity how much you share that because

20:49David 'Bumble' Lloyd: it's a small world so you you've got like you say you found you're not going to give away your competitive edge here you're going to tell everyone in that squad about it because i'm sure that's how you do it and then but then you go off and do an american franchise and you go oh actually we'll take some of that and then actually what you've your competitive edge is now just for one series Does that make sense? Yeah, well, I would say as a coaching team, I guess the level of rigour that you go to, not all of that makes its way to the players because you don't want to overwhelm the players. You want the players to play with quite a free mind.

21:20So we pick and choose the insight that we've got and how that's reflected in what the players experience. So that's kind of the first point. As for our coaching team, we've got quite a consistent coaching team across the different teams I work with. And to some degree, some of that will leak and it will spread out. But you've got to pride yourself on staying ahead of the curve, really.

21:37Michael Vaughan: And when you start looking at your men's selections, you've got Liam Livingston as your skipper. Why Liam? Well, he's historically one of the best performing players in the competition. He's having a really good blast now as well, as an example. So he's been there and done it as a player. He also, I think, as a person, probably represents what we want this team to stand for. He's aggressive. He's multi-skilled. he's going to try and put the opposition on the back foot. Spirit might not have played their cricket like that in recent years, the men's team, and we wanted that sort of identity, so he's quite a nice fit.

22:16Michael Vaughan: Yeah, I'm looking at your bowling attack. You've got, obviously, Zamper, leg spinner. You've got Mason Crane, leg spin. You've got James Cole, left arm spinner. You've got David Willey, left arm. You've got Tamar Mills, left arm. Matthew Fisher's skill. You've got Liam, who can obviously bowl a bit of everything. Jamie Erwitzson, bit of gas. you look to me like you've got you've got Henry Crocombe a bit of gas a lot of yeah but you've got a lot of Adam Milne as well Adam Milne's skill you've got any bad you've got one bad well you've got Daryl Brevis that's where I got the job James Coles you've got Liam James Ruse in that squad as well Johnny don't forget Johnny Johnny B you look to me like you've got every ounce covered have you got a blocker at the top do you need a plinker at the top in Aleister just to see you through the power play without getting too much damage.

23:08Michael Vaughan: You've got pretty much everything covered. Is that what you go for when you go to the option? Well, we wanted variety. So as you described our bowling attack there, we've got pace and bounce. We've got new ball skill. We've got left arm angle. We've got wrist spin and finger spin. So we wanted variety in our bowling attack. We wanted a lot of all-rounders, which is represented in that unit as well. So the captain's always got tactical options out there. So that's reflected in that squad.

23:33Phil Tufnell: Did you get up to your budget limit? Good squad. Pretty much, yeah. Maybe just short of that. But yeah, pretty much we spent most of it. What is the budget? Well, it differs for men's and women's. So they're all the same? All the teams are the same? Yeah, the men's was just over two million.

23:48Michael Vaughan: OK. I mean, you're not going to tell us this, are you? But was there one player out there that you missed out on that you think, oh God, missed out on that one? Well, there's always a few that you miss out on. If you take the first set that came out, they were pretty much top order English batters. and you kind of say to yourself, well, we'd be happy with any one of, let's say, these three out of these six names and then you have them in a bit of a pecking order. Now, you don't always get your first one, sometimes you get your second and vice versa, but in our first round, we were quite keen on Johnny and we got him, so we were pretty happy with that.

24:16But through every set, you get that. And then we saved a bit of money for James Coles in the men's auction. He spent a lot of money, 390. Yeah, which meant that sometimes you miss some of your other targets, so that's a reality.

24:28Phil Tufnell: What's his batting line? James Coles. Yeah, what's he going to give? I mean, you know he does both a little bit of left-arm spin as well. So if you do look at his graph, I think it's going pretty much upward. And what is fantastic to see is, obviously, we have Richard Halsall, who's our fielding coach, and he had great things to say about him because they both worked together in Southern Brave. Apart from that, the fact that he's quite versatile in the batting order. We saw him always batting at four for Sussex and doing quite nicely, but he went to SA20, he was forced into batting at number six, and he showed a lot of skills there.

25:01And he literally did so well that they ended up winning the tournament, and he played a major role doing that. So that was very encouraging. Now, if you do look at England as a country and the kind of resources, supply and demand, it's very hard to find high-quality middle-order batsmen who are good left-arm spinners. He has the ability to bowl in the power play and through the middle as well. So if you add up all together, it felt like a very important player for us. And then you obviously allocate a big budget, and you need to get lucky as well because if somebody sits with the same kind of budget, which they did, then you're in for a fight which happened and eventually you ended up getting him

25:34Phil Tufnell: Who would you see as your main competitors? We're a bit wary of them This is us, we're a box office We'd be a bit wary of that team I think it's difficult to answer that because it's a reset We've only hung on to two, three or four players so every team's had a total reset so who knows I think the competition will settle after the first few games and we'll have an idea of that so you've got to respect every team I'd say yeah

25:57Michael Vaughan: every team Dave looks so strong you can see the raising standard I mentioned all the skill set I think most teams will have similar

26:06Phil Tufnell: our lot finished bottom of the IPL didn't they so are they under any sort of pressure in the 100 or is it a totally different game well I think

26:17Michael Vaughan: the leadership group will be under pressure if it doesn't work out they're a quality

26:21Phil Tufnell: leading group they're quality they really are been around a long time

26:24Michael Vaughan: DK how hard is it Obviously you worked at Bangalore. So you'll start with the batters when? How many days before the first 100-ball game? Just under a week, maybe. So you'll have a week to work with a lot of players that you haven't had the chance to work with. How hard is that as a coach to go in and kind of... Do you tinker or do you just kind of work out what they need for that week? No, I think the first week is probably just getting into the tournament. But the key is trying and having a connect with the players before it. So, you know, I've been in touch with a lot of the players. There's some I've already been working with or have worked with and some I'm getting to know.

27:00For example, James Coles. I worked with him when I was part of the England Lions set up. So that gave me an insight into the kind of person he is. So I know him quite well. So it's a good head start to have. And then you speak to him on the phone. You kind of catch up over coffee and you try and understand what he wants to get out of this tournament. It's important that as a batting coach, you understand what the player wants to achieve out of it. You have the ultimate aim of wanting to win the tournament. and how does what the player want align with what you're looking to do and there'll be some good things that he's happy with.

27:29You try and enhance that and there are areas that you would want to work with and if you do find the time, you try and accommodate that in your practice session. At times, it could mean that you just hold on to what he has and try and get the best out of him during the tournament.

27:41Michael Vaughan: When you first got the job, how important was it to get Andy Flower? Well, I think he's the best in the business. I'm sure we'll go on to talk about him a little bit more shortly but I think he's the best in the business. I've spent three seasons, back then it was two seasons, working with him closely in the IPL and obviously I knew him from my England days. And yeah, he and I share a lot of values in terms of the way we want to work and run our operation. So for me it was critical to game. He was in demand as you can imagine, he'd obviously been at Trent Rockets for a while and I'm sure they wanted to hang on to him.

28:16But it was critical, like I was desperate to get him. And similarly, as I mentioned on the women's side because of my my gap in knowledge on women's cricket I was keen to get somebody like Heather that could help oversee what goes on there and then you know we ran a recruitment process and got Louis in as head coach but you know across those roles getting the right calibre of people in is absolutely essential because they are going to be the people that drive your culture and then as you guys will know it's about appointing the right captains but your coaching captain combinations are really really key for the culture and how you're in the franchise.

28:48Phil Tufnell: What is it about Andy? What does he bring? I'd say... Obviously now it's in the game and knowing the cricket. Yeah, of course. He's got a real presence. I think that helps. When you're dealing with, as Fauney mentioned in this question, players coming together at short notice. Yeah. Well, how do you get everyone to actually pay attention? How do you get everyone to switch on to, well, this is your focus now. It's not where you've just come from. It's not where you're going to go to next. This is your focus. You need a coach that's got a bit of presence that can and grab the group, he does that immediately.

29:19He's got great attention to detail, which I enjoy. He, I think his greatest skill is probably his communication. He doesn't waste words, every word matters. He's very deliberate in the way that he speaks. And he never leaves anything that needs to be said unsaid, however challenging that might be.

29:38Phil Tufnell: That's important. And I think it's critical. And I think that his communication is probably his greatest asset.

29:43Michael Vaughan: Do you, due at RCB and now the Spirit, Do you have a code of conduct for the players? Not a stated code of conduct. Obviously, players have things like code of conduct referenced in their contracts. I would prefer not to have, like, overly stated code of conduct type things because, essentially, you're dealing with adults, you're dealing with, you know, at the IPO, you're dealing with experienced men who shouldn't know how to conduct themselves. Confused. And you want to try and get them brought into a culture and an environment where they all look out for each other and they all realise what our priorities are.

30:18Now there are going to be some areas where you need some rules and boundaries and you do have to as an organisation be clear on what happens if something goes wrong so you have to be clear on those sorts of things but it isn't front and centre, I don't really want to treat people like that. Sorry if I can just, Chef you had a massive smile when you're speaking with Andy Flower what are your experiences with them actually?

30:35David 'Bumble' Lloyd: I just laugh when, not laugh but I don't think I've ever met a man who's on it as much as he is. Do you know what I mean? Like over everything. I just thought he was a brilliant coach. He got the best out of us, that team from 2009 to 2013 and I know he got criticised a bit through certain parties for being tough but in general we came from an average side to become number one side of the world and won three Ashes and I'd always be indebted to that, to be a part of him and he drove that. He did drive that and I think he terrified staff because he'd put them under pressure. Terrified who? The staff.

31:15David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Not so much the players. Does he terrify you, DK? I wouldn't use the word terrified, but he'd make sure that... He wouldn't let DK... I'm pretty sure, this is what he's now. He wouldn't just let DK have a cruise for three weeks here. He would make sure that DK is getting... Flower is getting the best out of DK and DK's putting everything for that three weeks. And if he's not, after a week, he would make sure that he is. And I meant terrified. He would go to a meeting and I was the captain of a few of them. He'd be like, to the physio whoever what's happened to him you know what's player X doing when's he back and the player like he put people he's that he drove standards like I've never seen before apparently he's mellowed a bit so he's probably not quite as ruthless but he doesn't

31:57Phil Tufnell: Thomas Tuchel you don't have to be popular you don't have to be popular and you've got to be a little bit detached from the group with a bit of jeopardy and a bit of menace haven't you a little bit sometimes so the word that covers it all is respect. The players have to respect what he's doing because he's dead honest and knows what he's doing. But I don't get this in an elite international environment, chummy. You can't be too chummy if you're bossy. You've got to be a little bit detached.

32:30David 'Bumble' Lloyd: I played with that.

32:31Phil Tufnell: If Alex Ferguson were detached, and he was a fucking boss, that's it.

32:37David 'Bumble' Lloyd: It's a bit different from a franchise talk to, like if he becomes the next head coach of England again, because a franchise is three weeks, three weeks, three weeks. Well, head coaches are 12 months of an England thing. But Flower, I mean, I played with him. So I saw, you know, we were like, he probably took me under his wing. He came out of 2003 after that Zimbabwe World Cup thing. And then he... And I just, you know, he fought, Jesus Christ, he fought for me. When we batted, he was so good with me, out in the middle. Proper experience to keep me going. Yeah, I love him. I think he's brilliant.

33:11Michael Vaughan: Is Sir Alistair right, DK, about that kind of probe in a way at you as a coach? He'll make sure that you're on it 100 % all the time. Spot on. I think that is Andy's biggest strength. I do think his ability to get the best out of every person. and there's this notion that at times it's wrong to be hard I think he's hard when the time is right it's no easy sailing like any other tournament IPL is a hard one and I've worked with him in the IPL I've been a player and a coach with him and he does right by you if he knows that you're putting in the effort

33:46Phil Tufnell: Honest, just honest I believe as a coach you don't need to be your best friend but you can be a friend and a friend who can show the mirror to the player I do think that's very important That's fine. We can have a bit of fountain, can't we? Duncan Flexion was excellent. Duncan Flexion was a bloody good guy. I've always said that. He's just a little bit stood back. He can't be going out, right, come on, lads, we're all going out, we're all going to play golf. You've got to just...

34:12David 'Bumble' Lloyd: The one other thing that Mo said, which is true, he's not scared to have any conversation. But he knows if you're having that conversation, he hasn't just do what I would do and just turn up and start the conversation. He'd have thought about it for two or three days before. and almost know your comeback before you've even said the answer.

34:29Michael Vaughan: I've always thought, do you know that? Brilliant. You can't be best friends in the dressing room. I've always said it. My best friend back home in Sheffield will always give me the truth because he's my best mate. I'll respect that I've done something wrong and he'll tell me that I've done something wrong. I'll go, if you're saying that to me, I know I've done something wrong. And I respect that. And that's part of trust. As your core think tank, you have to trust each other so much. And trust isn't just like, oh, we're all mates. It's that I'm going to tell you what you need to hear because I know you need to hear it.

34:56And he role models that, which then means that has an impact on the support staff, the players. So I really enjoy that about the way he communicates. He says what he means and he means what he says.

35:05Phil Tufnell: Yeah, gone out of the game a little bit, I reckon.

35:09Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair.

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37:14Michael Vaughan: Right, we'll get on to the RC being obviously two-time champions, but can you be a Test Match cricket coach and a head coach of an IPL franchise?

37:25Phil Tufnell: Where are you going with this?

37:26Michael Vaughan: I don't know.

37:27Phil Tufnell: Who's that from?

37:29Michael Vaughan: Don't say you don't know Michael. No, no, no, he says R-Gold. R-Gold. R-Gold. Is that possible in this era? Because we allow, you know, Joffre Archer plays the full IPL, missed a test match at the start of the New Zealand series played the last two so players can do it well no I'll throw the question back at you guys depends on how much stick you're going to give the people that do it because there was a big fuss kicked up about Bethel which Cookie kicked off I think about Bethel being at the IPL and him not being here to prepare so what do you guys think

37:58David 'Bumble' Lloyd: was he right or wrong this is what I love I was allowed to give my opinion that him sitting on his arse wasn't doing anything anyway next game you played no So did you pick him because of what Alistair said? We did. But tell me this. It's a very interesting one. You say he was just sitting there warming the bench. Now he has a contract with RCB, which he's chosen to be part of. How do you dishonor that contract because it's warming the bench? So if every player decides to do that, if you drop me, I'm going back home. Yeah, we only have 11 players in our environment. I don't understand what you're trying to do.

38:29Either you take a decision saying, you know what, Phil Salt is there, I might not play, so I'm going to head back home. Say it, not before the season, but before you put your name in the auction, choose. or then if you're there, then decide to play. You can't say, yo, I'm warming the best, I want to go back home. Yeah, that same week, as you say, he opened the batting at Ahmedabad with the likes of Virat and Hazelwood in his team and he got a chance to play against Rashid Khan, Hamid Siraj, Rabada.

38:51David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Yeah, brilliant. And it helps him when he peels off 100 against India or whatever he does here. Or he then misses the first two test matches out of runs. He doesn't score any runs because he hadn't any red ball back. And is that because he's being part of the IPL, you reckon? But I'm just, what I'm saying, and I think this is where it's really important, I'm watched here with a test match a week's time, and one of our number three player, and you can see what I want to do, I think it's really important that English cricket is more important than an IPL in franchise. That's what I think, and apparently I'm not allowed to think it because the IPL is the best tournament in the world.

39:21David 'Bumble' Lloyd: No, it is not. I think you should by all means say what you said, and I think what you're saying is very fair. So I'm taking it from my... Jacob Bethel, who sat on the bench the year before and learnt from all those players, who then also is sitting on the bench and is not playing, I'm sitting here going, my number three to the side I actually really want to win, which is England, no disrespect to RCB and all those franchises and London spirit, I want England to be the most successful side. Jacob Bethel is one hell of a talent, one hell of a player. And he's our number three, and actually over the next ten years this could be one of our most important players when Joe Root goes.

39:54David 'Bumble' Lloyd: I'm sitting there going, yeah, well he's learnt a bit for five weeks now. He's not playing any Red Bull cricket. He's going to come back and play against a decent New Zealand side without any practice. I'm sitting there going to think, I don't think that's perfect. But so is he, probably. And so are we all. But what I'm saying is, we can't blame the players for a schedule. I wasn't blaming Betel. I wasn't blaming Betel. I can't blame the players for a schedule. I'm not blaming him. I'm just saying, this is...

40:17Michael Vaughan: Do you ever see a time where... So, Jordan Cox, didn't look like he was going to play. You can get on a plane from London Heathrow, get to Mumbai in, what, 10 hours. Get to India quite quickly. Do you ever see a time in the IPL, because it's going to go to three months, let's be honest, in time, there'll be more teams out, it's going to get longer and longer. Where players that aren't necessarily in your top 16 at that time could be sent back to the UK to play category. By the way, if you need them, you just get them on a plane and send them back to India. Do you think that could possibly happen in the future?

40:49I'm going to answer that question.

40:51David 'Bumble' Lloyd: I'm going to actually stick up. For Moe's, this is what I think now, if Moe doesn't actually give a flying monkeys about that, he doesn't. He doesn't care if England win that Test match at the minute because he's employed by probably getting paid quite a lot of money by the franchise in his tournament. I'm just saying he's getting paid by that. He doesn't care if England win or lose the game.

41:10Michael Vaughan: That's fine, but I'm saying for the player in time, and particularly England players, that April, May is the start of our summer, and if you're nowhere near your franchise team but you're in the squad, wouldn't it be better for you as a franchise operator to think, well, Jordan, send him back to Essex. Whack a few. He goes and gets a couple. Oh, by the way, get back to Ine because we've now got a spot that could be available. to you. So you've got a player that's playing cricket that you can fly back. In theory, to a point, so long as you always feel like you've got enough cover, tactically an injury cover, going into a game.

41:38In theory you could. But I go back to the reason I made the point with Cookie is, like, Cookie's right. In an ideal world, Jacob Bethel's getting an IPL experience and he's also preparing really well for a test match. Now the problem is the criticism comes on the players. I'll always defend the players with those choices. There's enough administrators in the game who have designed a schedule where they're not prepared to make compromises. They should be under pressure. Jacob Bethel didn't put a test match two days after the IPL final. He didn't do that. Joffre Archer didn't put that test match there.

42:08These guys are pretty much self-employed and they're trying to play across as many competitions as possible because they want to fulfil their dreams. So I will always defend the team. I see. They've got an England contract. They've got IPL contracts too.

42:23Michael Vaughan: But the England contract, you could argue... They're retainers. So you retain their service. Of course they are. They're on a 12-month contract with England. They're on a three-month contract with RCB, I guess. That's a fair point. Twelve months over three months. I would say that the ECB contract might change in terms of financials, but in terms of 12 months, who operates all of Joffre Archer's health, well-being? Yeah, the moment they cross over to an IPL franchise, you assume control of that player's health and well-being, even in that regard. So for three months? Yeah. As soon as the NOC is given, you take control of the player.

42:58Michael Vaughan: Back to the point about Andy Flower. My answer to that would be very simple. And I'm not degrading test match cricket in any way, shape or form, but the test match that I generally see in June, which is the first test of our summer, and I don't want to, again, degrade New Zealand because they were the first this year because we played a three-match series against them. But if we're playing India or we're playing Australia, which is primarily, as Baz McCollum has said, they're the series that you want to be known as winning. At the start of those summers, generally, you might play one test which next year is Bangladesh.

43:31Michael Vaughan: Again, not degrading it, but it's not the be all and end all for me. The be all and end all is beating Australia, beating India, getting up the World Test Championship in terms of a league to get to the final to try and win that. If it means that Andy Flower comes to take that role and he misses the odd Test match, which, again, in the grand scheme of cricket in life that we'll not be talking about in 10, 15 years' time, I'm more than happy for Andy to carry on with the RCB train.

43:56Phil Tufnell: So he needs a pedigree, number two. Yes, of course.

44:00Michael Vaughan: But you're only talking one test match, potentially.

44:03Phil Tufnell: Well, just say it's Andy Flower, which is all the talk, and Andy would want an absolute gun as his number two, who would be there in his absence. Absolutely perfect.

44:15Michael Vaughan: It's a perfect scenario that you've got. And that person at number two is going to learn under Andy that potentially in time Andy, I don't know, three or four years' time goes, I've had enough, that number two goes straight into his role. If I ask an opposite question then, so what happens if there's a test series going on during the IPL auction? Zoom. Maybe I'm not happy with Zoom. You'll have to be because I'm in charge of Andy Flower because I'm going to give him a bigger contract than you give him. Well, I'm talking hypothetically. I'm just saying, you're in charge of RCB London Spirit, I'm in charge of the ECB, I'm going to say to Andy Flower because I think he's the best of the best.

44:53Michael Vaughan: I look at him and think Thomas Tuchel with England, guess what they've gone and got? They've gone and got the best and the best. And whether they win the World Cup or not, and this show's going to come out after, obviously, the World Cup, it's been very clear to me that Tommy Tushel has manoeuvred the England football team in a very, very positive way in-game. So he's been brilliant at coaching in-game. I believe Andy Flowery's the best in the world. I wouldn't debate that. The ECB, the officers are just over there. They've got that much money. If you want the best, you go and say, what does it take?

45:21Michael Vaughan: And I'm going to outbid you. Yeah, you can do. You'll probably outbid me because you'll go back to your... Who are your owners? You're owned by that really wealthy Indian family, what are they called? Well, we have been owned by Diageo, but we've got new owners. Yeah. Owned by the Carti. I've got a tenner.

45:35Phil Tufnell: Give me Mike. I've got a tenner here, mate. Here's a tenner. No, but the point I'm making, if somebody, and forget Andy, because it could be anyone we're talking about, it could be Kumar Sangakara, it could be Ricky Ponting, it could be anybody, it could be Justin Langer, but if they've got an existing contract that they have committed to already, which details their work programme.

45:53Michael Vaughan: How many years has he got with you? Another two years. after this year so so this year's got two more seasons so he's got so he's got 27 28.

46:04David 'Bumble' Lloyd: that's costing me they're gonna have to write a massive check look at him smiling you're gonna get some commission out of this aren't you i reckon that's the most serious i've ever been on this

46:12Phil Tufnell: show i like it i like this i come back to what something that more said about bethel that i i don't think that the criticism has gone on to bethel i think it's the schedule It's the administrators that put... I have no blame on Bethel. He's under contract. He took a contract. But the administrators put the schedules together and they're quite stubborn in that they won't change that. How many times have we said that and nothing changes? I would never blame the player. I won't blame the player. Where do you sit with this, DK? So Bumble says it's not on the player, but sadly the player feels the heat.

46:49It is the truth. Oh, it's a shame. because he's not. He doesn't want to play for England. And England is getting to a point, for some strange reason, they're finding a way to hate the IPL. And I think that can be a bit unfair. I know it's not voraciously in this part of the world, but the players do enjoy playing that tournament. It comes just before the summer. It's a brilliant tournament. And I would like to think, if you do ask the players, that they do have a good time playing it and they get better than what they were. I would like to think so.

47:17Phil Tufnell: I'm going to disagree with you. I don't think we dislike the IPL. I really don't. because we transmit it on TV here and it's very well watched. There's loads of people that watch the IPL and talk about the IPL. I don't think we're critical. Do we do it?

47:32Michael Vaughan: You're right with the administrators not really having the finger pointing at them because you're right to say the auction, you want your head coach there. Well, it's down to the administrators to create a window where if we have these kind of scenarios where there are coaches that are doing the IPL and necessarily dealing with their international teams as well.

47:49Phil Tufnell: Deal with problems.

47:50Michael Vaughan: Really, we've got to get to a stage where administrators realise that they've got to make it easier for everyone. Yeah, I look at our sport. Most of the sports would go, could we have three or four formats that appeal to different types of audiences that all snap your hand off? Most of them would love that sort of optionality. We've got it in cricket and we spend all our time fighting about it and arguing about it. I don't get that. But it does take administrators to make some tough decisions to go, right, how do we create a year-round schedule that means that whatever type of fan you are, you get the best experience that you get.

48:24And Test cricket has primacy when we want it to. Franchise cricket's going to...

48:27Michael Vaughan: Where's Test cricket going to end up in your eyes, both of you? Because we've had Ajinka Rihani on the show and he's got a concern about Test match cricket. I don't have as much of a concern because I reckon since 90... When did I start playing? 93. There's always been a debate. Test cricket's dying. It's still here now, 33 years later. Where do you see Test cricket fitting in this calendar that we've got that's so jam-packed? Well, who knows? Firstly, I love Test cricket. It's what I grew up watching more than anything else. I might spend my time in franchise cricket now, but I've spent longer working for England than I have working in franchise cricket, and I love Test cricket.

49:03I fear that a lot of countries are struggling to afford Test cricket. I fear that domestic, sort of first-class cricket around the world is presenting challenges as well. like I think you know is it bizarre to think of a world in 50, 70 or 80 years time where the Ashes is like the Ryder Cup and England play Australia every couple of years and everyone gets really up for that but there isn't much of the test cricket happening like if someone that's almost happening now if someone presented something like that to me I wouldn't say it'd be that beyond the realms of a possibility do you see that I think that'd be incredibly sad so I have an opinion which is not too different to a lot of us sitting here.

49:44I just feel that test cricket is loved in Australia and England a lot and it's very evident you go there. The average age would be you know around the 40s, 50s maybe to the crowd that kind of comes for the test matches and they still love their test cricket and they do find it extremely interesting. But sadly when I go to cricket academies and I see a lot of young parents and young boys I haven't seen many parents say you know can you teach my son to play a defence, a well left. They're talking about can you teach him to smack a six, how does he play the scoop? These are the kind of questions you ask.

50:17So you can see the modern generation obviously getting very infatuated with the white ball format of things and especially T20 cricket. I don't think ODI makes the conversation there. And it's very evident to see and all of you all watch test cricket when two nations play, barring Australia and India, what sort of crowds do you get? Do you speak to any of the broadcasters, they'll tell you it's a very expensive thing to put up.

50:40Phil Tufnell: It is massive. It is eye-watering. Eye-watering. And, you know, right now the broadcasters sell the rights, as you know, Bumble, in such a way that they bundle it all up together and say, test ODI T20, take it or leave it. I mean, we've all worked in TV. We've worked together in TV. And it always, you know, I would say that for our sport, that you don't need 32 cameras. We don't need that much expense. you can do it easily with 18, 20 cameras is max. If you do a county max, you don't tell any difference. There'll be eight cameras, maybe, six or eight cameras on the ground, and it's fine. It's absolutely fine.

51:16Phil Tufnell: So the broadcaster...

51:19Michael Vaughan: Dave, we've got six in here, just to let you know.

51:22Phil Tufnell: Yeah. I'm sorry, camera guys. Oh, Jesus. Edit that. You've got rid of that. We need more cameras. Three of you go. Dave, the volume will be there. Yeah. Yeah, you don't need that many 32 cameras.

51:35Michael Vaughan: Do you think they are saving money on production costs? Yeah. What were you saying? I don't agree with Bumble. I do think it's, even if you reduce the number of cameras, there's a lot more moving parts than just cameras. Oh, of course. That makes it extremely expensive. Like the use of DRS for a day is expensive. Yeah, trim it down. Those gadgets are extremely expensive. And when you trim it down, you obviously lose the quality. And that's happened in Zimbabwe a few other times, they've not used DRS and all of that. Oh, no. I'm not saying don't do it, but it's still so expensive that there's no way they're able to get back that money through advertising.

52:06That is the big challenge. And when you don't get advertisers on board, it is a sport that you watch on TV. It's not how many tickets you sell. So that part of it gets a big hit, and that's what they're struggling with. And that's why you see a lot of the countries not having enough finances to deal with it. And how does that have repercussions? The domestic cricket, the cricket is on play. You've heard of the likes of New Zealand right now. A lot of them take what's called casual contracts. so the board can choose to call them if they're free, but if not, the player has the choice to come or not.

52:33So it's getting there. India that way is very safe. Look, I think we have a very robust domestic system. As you would know, it's a very self-sufficient board which is able to take care of the associations, the infrastructure is developing, and hence the quality of cricket and cricketers are improving because money is there. Can I say that of all the cricket associations outside of India, I think we all know what the answer is.

52:56Phil Tufnell: Does India still enjoy the test cricket? We were talking to Ajinko and he was sort of saying, you know, all the big experienced guys have sort of left a little bit and there's that sort of young new group trying to sort of come together. How's that sort of been watched? Yes and no. I do think my dad still loves this test cricket but I do know for a fact that a lot of the younger crowd, you know, it's very hard to get, it is very hard to get the attention of a young boy and girl, I'm talking about mid-twenties, for seven hours and say you watch it for five days and at the end of it there might not be a result but it's a very hard product to sell.

53:30Phil Tufnell: Our crowds we sell out for test match cricket and if you look at the demograph you've got to make it into an event to a great day you don't sit there and watch seven hours cricket like that but you're meeting your friends and you're wandering around and you're dipping in and dipping out of cricket so it's up to us to make it into a wonderful event and if you speak to Brian Henderson at Sky who does work over in America that you have a wonderful comfortable seat air conditioned with your own wifi and drinks coming to you, it's exclusive, it's an event rather than plastic seats I don't see many of that, Old Trafford you don't have much of that do you?

54:11Phil Tufnell: It's going to be a bit like Wimbledon I think the Royal Box I think it's important I think it's important that you make it an event second to not. No, you sit in them plastic seats with your knees like that. Sweaty-faty legs. It's faster than yesterday in the chairman's chairs room. And they were lovely seats, but your knees are like that. How do you get up and walk around? I'm sorry, Bumble, but it's probably not nice to hear what I'm going to say. But you've got to understand when cricket, obviously, in the late 60s, 70s, there wasn't much television coverage so people heard it on the radio.

54:50Absolutely. They visualised what it could look like to see the greats play the game. Very important. And then when it slowly came into television around the early 80s, it was a spectacle. No matter what anybody showed there, it was beautiful to watch because all they heard was only the ones who went to the ground knew what it was like to watch a cricket match. Everybody else just listened to the great voices on the radio, fell in love with the sport. Now when television became more achievable for a lot of the households around the world, then they started seeing what the sport is now when you bring television then obviously money comes in and today the name of the game is different how do you sell advertisers advertisers aren't willing to spend money on anything that is seven hours across five days in different parts of the world england and australia are an exception they love their test career leave those two countries aside how do you sell seven hours into five days at times not having a result for people who have an attention span of not more than 20 but do you not do you not think that You do a show called Stick to Cricket.

55:49It's a one-hour, 20-minute episode, or two hours at times. But what is it that sells more? What is it that gets more views? You get your views on reels. You don't get your views on podcasts, per se. You get thrice that, four times that, on the ten-second reels that you do. We speak very exciting, spicy stuff, and people are not willing to watch the whole two-hour episode. Nobody has the time to watch it completely. And that's the name of the game.

56:10Phil Tufnell: Which we all do, even at my age. I watch a comedian for three minutes. Why are we going to do that? You need to move on with the world. So, Clare Roy, you've said a lot of interesting things, but what made the round? The fact that you felt Bethel was just wasting his time, and you IPL, and that was a 10 second clip, and that did the most number of views. So you need to understand where and what sells.

56:33David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Can I, like, a little bit of it?

56:35Michael Vaughan: That's why we have him on the show. He's our click mate. He's very good. All of you are now. Are you allowed to evolve through? And he's not on digital, by the way.

56:43David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Are you allowed to bowl through cricket? So you can start with the T20 game and then you see actually it's the same game played over and over again, the same players in different coloured shirts, it's the same pattern. Then you say, well actually I'm now 25, 26, what's the next bit of the game? And you can evolve, because the demographic here at Test Match Cricket in Australia and England and other places is slightly older than things. So we should use that as a thing. And there's nothing wrong. My big pet hate about cricket is, oh, I can't stand T20 cricket. Oh, I can't stand Test cricket. It's still cricket, it's just a different thing.

57:21David 'Bumble' Lloyd: And you can prefer one and prefer another. It's like the 100, isn't it?

57:25Michael Vaughan: If you don't mention that you like the 100, oh, it's because you work on it. That's nonsense. Has the IPL slightly dropped off?

57:33Phil Tufnell: Or is it gaining every year? I've got three years experience of it, and it doesn't feel like anything's dropping off to me. No, no. It's a big event and it's great to be a part of. Yeah. It feels like the biggest show in town.

57:45David 'Bumble' Lloyd: It's great to be a part of because it's just got the most amount of money. And so everyone wants to be involved in it. You can't eat steak and chips every day of your life. You get a bit bored with it. But surely the IPL and franchise cricket is great. You've got a piece of it. I'm not sure. Can we not tax it for the other boards? So, you know, obviously England, we talk about the big three and we always talk about the big three. The franchise cricket here to stay is fantastic. like that i can tell you because maybe it may be my demographic who's won that ipl or that hundred or t20 but obviously because i've dipped my bread in test cricket and i'm sure there's other people the other way around i get it but does franchise cricket not need test cricket does test cricket not need franchise cricket so so we do need i think we've got to get to the stage now where the ipl's taxed the hundreds taxed to go and help west indies cricket we had two of the greats on of ambrose and walsh the other week whenever it's shown and they said we've got no money but I'm seeing more money flooding into cricket.

58:38David 'Bumble' Lloyd: We've got to share that wealth if we want the game to grow as it is. That's what I think. I'm pretty sure the IPL is indirectly being taxed and paying for international cricket because the BCCR would be the biggest contributors to broadcast revenue that's coming into the game internationally and that share's going across. I think it needs to go more. I think it needs to go more. Yeah. That does happen. New Zealand players get...

59:00Michael Vaughan: New Zealand more. I just spoke up on something on the back of their contract. Yeah, but what you're getting at there is exactly what the ICC need to wrestle with and understand how do those proportions get carved out so the other teams can still thrive in their formats.

59:12David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Because it's important. And then they should then get to the schedule. So those things are the things they should be talking about. Can I just answer a couple of things that you said? Number one, I don't think franchise cricket needs test cricket, that's for sure. You don't think so? No, why does franchise cricket need test cricket? The only thing I wonder, and I think with Suravanch we're probably answering my own question, is I thought when I watched it that I wanted to know who I was watching hitting a six. Say that again. I wanted to know who was hitting a six. Okay. And I reckon up until this year, until Cyril Vanchis came on and probably the most talked about cricketer ever and not to play international cricket, that actually you can make your name just T20 Cricketer and it could be an unknown and that's fine now because he's, you know, because I think the game has evolved.

59:59David 'Bumble' Lloyd: But I thought franchise cricket needed someone who played, was really well known internationally. And I'm looking at Chris Gayle walking out to bat Rivera at Kohli. Got a legend from the West Indies, a legend from India in the same team. But because they're legends in their own country, that's what generated the interest in it to start with. And I think that's what it was. And now it's kind of got bigger than that. I agree. It used to be that. I remember the first time I saw Saurav Ganguly and Ricky Ponting, where the KKR colours, I was like absolutely gobsmacked. them high-fying after a weekend, I'm thinking, wow, I didn't visualize that.

1:00:31That is true. But sadly now, IPL has gotten to a stage where it's a self-sufficient product. Now also you need to understand there's an incentive for every board in the world to grow their players and become very good at T20 cricket because for every player that represents England that comes to IPL, 10 % of whatever he earns, BCCI pays the board. So I'm assuming that's a lot of money. So if there are 20 cricketers, we end up, you know, if they go for 20 million, let's put just a number there. ECB is given two million by BCCI for just allowing the players to come there and giving their no see. So there is an incentive for every board to make sure their players are good enough to play IPL.

1:01:05I don't know how many other leagues do that, but IPL for sure does it. So there is an incentive that way. And it is getting to a point where where we are, I feel, is in the crossroads of where international cricket versus franchisee cricket is. And that's why this conversation is quite interesting and very strong opinions with me, you, and everybody else. but the fact is that there's a tussle right now.

1:01:24David 'Bumble' Lloyd: It's strong because we care about cricket. Absolutely. We care about cricket and it's not... I fear that this episode will be clipped up in your famous reels that we're arguing about Bethel playing should have been over in England. And that's an unfair thing. That is a really unfair thing because...

1:01:41Michael Vaughan: Harry Parker does the reels. Harry Parker. Yeah, he's the guy that you're going to play. Because I guarantee that he will clip these up and you will be arguing.

1:01:48David 'Bumble' Lloyd: Yeah, we'll be arguing. And yet we're quite good friends. I'd like to say we're quite good friends. That's good. Healthy debate. Healthy debate.

1:01:56Phil Tufnell: The other thing about the experience, and Clive Lloyd, who you all know, Clive, is adamant about covered stadiums. He said, why have we not got covered stadiums? That's a big sky. That's a big sky. He's looking. We love a rain day. We love a rain day. Imagine turning up. Imagine turning up no rain. Why not? When we stop, when it pisses down, we stop. Keep going. Covered stadiums. They do it at Wimbledon, they do it in America, cover it over.

1:02:23Michael Vaughan: Can you put a cover on this? Yeah, well done. I'll start stitching. It's too expensive to put covers over a stadium for something that is not functional through the year. So if you have concerts, in this Lord's Cricket Ground, if there's concerts, if there's conclaves, if there's enough and more that's happening through the year, then putting a cover is good enough. Wimbledon, they've just done only centre court, and that's a very small piece of real estate we're speaking about, and that is expensive as well, but it's a legacy product and they didn't want to let go of broadcasting money because of a lot of matches being rained out.

1:02:57You're very wise.

1:02:59Phil Tufnell: You're a very wise man.

1:03:03Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Right, two questions before we go into community questions. We've got just one or two to finish off on the 100. Mo, would you be willing for Andy Flower to coach England's Test Match team as well as RCB? Firstly, it's great that Andy's been talked about. He's the best in the business. We've acknowledged that. He should answer the questions about his career, not me. But what I would say is he's obviously loved at the minute with the two franchises that he works with, particularly out in Bangalore. He's got a lucrative lifestyle that he can earn from these two contracts that he's got with teams that I work with.

1:03:43And we're doing special things and achieving things that have never been done before. If Andy Flower is not available, what's your next choice? Give me one name.

1:03:49Michael Vaughan: I would go... A bloke who's just left CSK. Stephen Flyman would be an interest. I'd like to speak to Stephen Flyman. One name, Michael. Richard Dawson. Nice. I would go for Richard Dawson, yes. Nice choice. Englishman? Yes, I would, yeah. Bumble?

1:04:03Phil Tufnell: I haven't thought enough about it. They've talked about there are ten names to a couple of South Africans, two from this country, that country. I've not thought enough about it. There will be people who... I've got one. Go on. I've got one. Darren and Eamon. Good shout.

1:04:21David 'Bumble' Lloyd: I was going to say, it's our show. We ask the questions to you. Yeah, I like that. That's not a bad show. So, my... And I was talking to Toughers about this, and he's... Oh, sorry, Chef. One bit of it, I was driving the car this morning, and I thought, who could... I think it's such a tough challenge now, that job. Because of... So why would Andy want to do it? Well, I just... I think Andy could do it. I'm not sure whether he would want to work with... I know Andy, not as well as Moe, recently, but to work with Brendan, who's there as well, I'm not sure how that fits in. Oh. Just in general, like Andy's thing, he does it.

1:04:59David 'Bumble' Lloyd: He will be all in. If Andy does it, he's all in. I think for a year, Darren Lehman could be a person, on an interim basis for a year, would be my choice. because I think people like Dawes, I think people like Batty, and I would love an English guy to do it. When Marcus North got it, I was very open. I just think you need so much experience. I wouldn't be against Lehman and Dawson. Just for a year.

1:05:23Michael Vaughan: You need a coaching assistant.

1:05:25Phil Tufnell: Coaching assistant, somebody under him.

1:05:27Michael Vaughan: I want Richard Dawson involved with English cricket. I think he's an outstanding coach. But that's just my... By the way, one more question, DK, before I answer you. Annie Flower gets a job. Are you coming in as Batty mental? Shouldn't you be asking Andy Flubber that? Is there a chance in my lifetime, DK, you know I love you, that I'll see you with the three lines on with the dog winger? Is there a chance? You won't see him with a flicker, he doesn't do it. Oh, don't you flick? No, no, just get someone else to do that. No? I'm trying to learn it, but I'm not good enough. I'm not very good. Please, is there a chance we'll see you with three lines on your chest, DK?

1:05:59Never say never, AD.

1:05:59Michael Vaughan: Never say never. Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Community questions to finish. Who are the players to watch out for in this year's 100? Come on. Go on DK. Players that we kind of, we know the legendary players. I'd say have a look out for a guy called Luandri Pretorius, he's special. Met him in Mumbai this year, he was playing for, he was with Registarne. Yeah, I met him in the coffee shop behind the torch. He was with Yassistri. Yeah, he was a good kid. Alright, Mel, any players that we don't know of? Well, from our men's team I'd certainly say he's a good shout. He's tearing it up in the MLC at the minute.

1:06:37Smokes it, doesn't he? Yeah, hopefully he can come and do well here.

1:06:40Michael Vaughan: Let's go for... That's a bit of a boring one. What's the biggest challenge facing franchise cricket in 26? That's from Mr K Peterson. That's what he says here. Mr K Peterson. Facing franchise cricket? Yeah, what's the challenge that you've got? Is there any challenges?

1:06:59Phil Tufnell: How do you get it better? Well, it probably circles back to everything we've discussed, right? Everyone wants more time with their players. So I'll tell you one thing that I think is quite sad, and it comes back to the schedule again. You win something like the IPL, and some of the players are literally leaving not long after the game to go and report for duties or whatever, and you respect that. But you can't even enjoy winning anymore. I think that's quite sad. The same is true at the start of a competition when you're trying to get people together and get them to form as a team. So, look, I'm sure it's the same experience that international teams have.

1:07:28I'm obviously giving a franchise perspective there. But if you want to focus on quality and things done properly and the game really pushing boundaries and improving all the time. Just a bit more time for the players, I think, would be the main thing.

1:07:40Michael Vaughan: This one. Who's the most professional player, both of you, that you've ever worked with? Josh Hazelwood. Really? Really? In what way? He's on the money with everything he does. Over Virat. Sorry? Over Virat, more professional. Virat is extremely professional, too. I mean, he'll definitely make the conversation, and he's right up there. but I really enjoyed how Josh Hazelwood went about it in terms of getting prepared for a test match and when he's coming back from injury, the kind of hard yards he puts in, we'll travel about six hours, seven hours, get into a hotel, he'll go walk straight to the gym, do what he's supposed to do, even if it's at 10 in the night.

1:08:18I do think he inspired a lot of the younger bowlers to look and go, wow, now that is how a fastball... Mo, you'd agree with that, yeah? Yeah, I think both of those names you've mentioned there are leading candidates from our environment and they're a great example to everybody else. Virat in his way and Hazelwood as well.

1:08:33Phil Tufnell: Years back, he'd have been Dennis Lilly. Dennis Lilly did exactly that. You were talking about picking your team and everything. Does that come into your mind? You know, character, that's very difficult to try and make a sort of programme off, isn't it? Yeah, character's key. Again, if I speak about my IPL experiences, we've interviewed players before an auction to understand them a little bit more. What, before the auction? Yeah, Andy and I have sat in front of players and get a sense of whether... Quite right, yeah. ...looking in the eye. Quite right. This guy bought into our vision of what we're trying to achieve.

1:09:02I've got a question. That's really interesting.

1:09:05Michael Vaughan: Would you travel to that player's country? Andy and I went over to India to scout. Before our last mega auction, we helped DK, helped us line up half a dozen interviews. Had a coffee or lunch with players. We looked them in the eye and said, do these guys want to get on board with what we're trying to do? Otherwise, we're not bidding for them. So character's key. I also say that when we do auction prep, there's somebody who's very skilled and there's somebody probably who's as skilled, but the character makes the difference. And we choose not to bid for a certain player. We choose to bid for a certain player.

1:09:36Phil Tufnell: What happens if someone's smashing it all out the park and his averages and his this and this is up there, but you don't fancy him? Well, it depends on what you don't fancy. If it's just that they're tough to manage, I've got no issue with that, because that's why you've got a head coach and a coaching team that can do it. Yes, that's my question. That's fine. But we've all got our own moral and values lines and you go, this is below the line, this is disruption. You hold a line there. But you need a critical mass. that if you had 10 or 11 mavericks who are just always breaking rules and always playing for themselves, it's not going to work.

1:10:03So it's a blend. But you might accommodate a few of those guys. You were one of them. That's where you need... You were one of them. What's that? You need a good trainer. One of those mavericks. A good pair of trainers. You need a mix, don't you?

1:10:16Michael Vaughan: Lads, brilliant. Thank you. Good luck this year. We're right behind you. Come on, Spirit. Come on, Spirit.

1:10:28Phil Tufnell: This has been a Global and the Overlap production.

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