Is Jasprit Bumrah the Best Ever? India Beat England & Harsha Bhogle Joins | Stick to Cricket EP 35

0:00Michael Vaughan: Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. Hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

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1:40Michael Vaughan: Hi, this is Matt from P1 with Matt and Tommy, and this episode is sponsored by eBay.

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2:49Harsha Bhogle: That's the one. It just goes through.

2:51Michael Vaughan: Let's start the front. Oh, not that one. Jesus, that's a wine.

2:54Harsha Bhogle: No, I used to bowl leggies, but the ball came slowly off the deck. Absolutely.

3:00Michael Vaughan: Of course he can. Here you go, Hoss. You bowl one more. One more.

3:06Michael Vaughan: Nice. Nice. I don't know what this room is usually used for. It's like a mini ballroom, isn't it? It's a banquet hall. Banquet, so you can do a bit of dancing in there.

3:15Harsha Bhogle: No. I've done enough of my son's wedding.

3:17Michael Vaughan: Now your son's wedding was very kind of you to invite me. I went to one evening. How many evenings did you have?

3:25Harsha Bhogle: We had two evenings and well three. There was a music evening, two receptions and a wedding in the morning. Right. So a little bit. A little puja, a little ceremony at home. Well what's a puja? It's a religious ceremony. Anita wanted a religious ceremony at the start. So we had a religious ceremony in the morning with lunch for all the relatives. a dinner with a lot of music. Just family turning up, doing dance, singing, very amateur stuff. But for which there was a choreographer who had to tell you the steps because none of us... So you actually all learn a dance? Yeah, the four of us. Anita, me and the two boys.

4:04Harsha Bhogle: We did one four-minute item. My cousin... Four minutes to remember all the steps? Two of them started with two of them. Yeah. and then us yeah so I got all my steps wrong with his fun and the dance what kind of was a state is a big stage there what and you have to do in front of

4:24Michael Vaughan: everybody there about 100 people yeah and the food what what food you have on

4:32Harsha Bhogle: so yeah during the during the wedding is vegetarian food yeah but at the function that you came there was everything I have to say the the evening

4:41Michael Vaughan: that I went to what's that called that is just a reception because party yeah

4:45Harsha Bhogle: because we didn't want to the two completely different sets of audiences right so we didn't want them to merge so this was a different I basically kept the riff-raff away from no that was family and relatives have come from all

4:58Michael Vaughan: over I was a part of the the crick buzz a riff-raff no no that that was there a

5:03Harsha Bhogle: different audience yeah because there were people from some people from the movies some people from films a lot of corporate people there was some what was

5:11Michael Vaughan: a very famous singer that was there that Shashindi who is our boss at Crickloss, he was obsessed with.

5:17Harsha Bhogle: He told me thereafter, he said 75 % of my life is now fulfilled. There were two of them, two of our top singers, a guy called Sonu Nigam, fantastic, and the girl called Shreya Ghoshal.

5:31Michael Vaughan: Shashindi was trying to, so I was trying to say come on, I'm not being ignorant to Indian saying I didn't know who he was, but I could say he was a superstar with his glasses. He looked at the star. I said, come on, give me an indication. Are we talking Liam Gallagher? Are we talking Rod Stewart? Are we talking Paul McCartney? And he said he thinks he's a Rod Stewart.

5:53Harsha Bhogle: But India's different in that you sing for the movies. You don't have any albums outside of the movies. Hardly any.

6:00Michael Vaughan: So they don't release albums? No. They're all movie songs and they're all sung.

6:06Harsha Bhogle: It's called playback. There's someone

6:08Michael Vaughan: miming it on screen there's an actor right apparently singing on screen there's actually

6:13Harsha Bhogle: a singer behind so you've got this actor so suppose suppose you're singing sound of silence and there's actually someone else singing a proper singer a proper singer and the soundtrack is played you mimed to the soundtrack oh it's been going on that way for 78 years is that right yeah I love that. So the movie started with singing stars because you had to have music and you didn't have this whole playback thing. Playback started in the 40s, 30s, 40s. Wow. Thereafter, there have been very, very few who sing their own songs. No one.

6:51Michael Vaughan: Well, I have to say, he clearly was a superstar. Because when he goes to his concerts... Bear in mind, in the room that you had, there were some rather large names of Indian cricket Yeah, some of them turned up. But there was this one singer that everyone was like, phew, straight to. And then when she came out afterwards. Thanks for the bar. It was a lovely bar that you set up. Was it your mate, Diageo? Diageo put it up for me, yeah. I mean, I paid for it.

7:17Michael Vaughan: The cocktail... Picanti? I think it was called Don Picanti. Don Picanti. Managed to have a shiv. Yeah. Thank you. That's good. It might be just for my northern accent, Are these special machines there, Arsh, that you've got?

7:35Harsha Bhogle: OK, I've just been Googling. England A cricket team toured India and Bangladesh in January and February 1995. That's right, yeah. Led by Alan Wells. Yes, Sussex. With notable performances from Mark Ramprakash. Jason Galleon. Yes. Aussie, the first of the Aussies to play for England.

7:53Michael Vaughan: Yeah, he played Australian under 19s, I think. And Ian Salisbury. Salisbury, yeah. Yeah, that's right. I do remember. Anybody else on that trip? Just name some names. Glen Chappell was there. Keith Piper was there.

8:03Harsha Bhogle: Let's see. I'm going Wikipedia. What would we do without Wikipedia? The India part. Okay.

8:10Harsha Bhogle: David Hemp. David Hemp.

8:12Michael Vaughan: Yeah, left-hander from the world. Amol Muzumdar played.

8:14Harsha Bhogle: Sairaj Bahutule played. W.D. Balaji Rao, the leggy.

8:18Michael Vaughan: Yes.

8:20Harsha Bhogle: Okay, let's... No, I'm going to one. Let's see if we can get a scorecard of that game. India Youth, 199. Dominic Cork. Dominic Cork, yeah. Rahul Dravid, Saurav Ganguly, Vikram Rathod all played against you.

8:34Michael Vaughan: Wow, good team.

8:35Harsha Bhogle: Ah, my friend Kamal Jit Singh of Spinner. First time I ever played on a match on a turf wicket against him. He had just been picked for Hyderabad. This was earlier when I was still playing, when I was playing senior division cricket in Hyderabad. I played the inter-college final. I've gone out to bat. Opposite me from batting at number three is a player called Arshad Ayoub. played 13 test matches for India thereafter. 89, 90. As I'm going out to bat, he just came up to me and said, have you ever batted on turf? Because we all play, we'll get all the cricket on matting. I said, no, I wonder why he's asking.

9:13Harsha Bhogle: I said, no, why? Why are you asking me? He said, you've never batted on turf. I said, no. He said, okay, we're 60 for five. This guy's fizzing his off brakes. He said, close your eyes and play forward. I said, okay. First ball, I'm here because you don't use your feet on matting. You don't need to use your feet on matting. I'm here and I hear, luckily it's not the off stump going. It's the ball in the keeper's gloves. The keeper went on to become chief minister of my state. Right. Yeah. He came down and said, you did not hear what I said. He said, close your eyes. Even if he bolts it at his feet, play forward.

9:50So next ball, I've just, and I'm surprised it's gone out the middle of the bat.

9:54Harsha Bhogle: We put on 67.

9:55Michael Vaughan: Did you now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice knocking. Are we all set? Is that all good now? We all recorded? OK. But just tell them, you mentioned David Beckham and you had David Beckham and Gary Neville. Yes. It was a fire, rather than a fireside chat.

10:11Harsha Bhogle: Fireside chat.

10:12Michael Vaughan: How did you find that? Because Gary obviously, you know he owns this company that kind of do this show.

10:17Harsha Bhogle: They got along really well, as you'd imagine. So I didn't have a lot to do. But even in the... They didn't know me, obviously. but that didn't come in the way of them pulling my leg as the programme went along. It was good fun though because Manchester United and Beckham and Neville, that whole generation of Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, I'm not a big football follower but I know that generation, the captain, outspoken.

10:43Michael Vaughan: Paul Scholes, Nicky Bott, David Beckham, Gary Neville, Roy Keane.

10:47Harsha Bhogle: Roy Keane, Gary Neville. Outspoken. so yeah but they were fantastic really really good

10:57Michael Vaughan: Beckham's got I hosted football you hosted football

11:02Harsha Bhogle: I hosted the World Cup of Football in 2006 for Star

11:06Michael Vaughan: the rights were only for India

11:08Harsha Bhogle: so they wanted an Indian face I also had to host games like Togo versus Poland

11:14Michael Vaughan: the World Cup in 2006 was that was in

11:18Harsha Bhogle: that was a headbutt That was the headbutt. So we were in Singapore. Zidane. Zidane. And many years later when the Indian Football League started, I was in a studio with Marco Materazzi.

11:32Michael Vaughan: So we've done a few things there. Wow, that was cool. Hello and welcome to Stick to Cricket brought to you by Betfair. Today I'm here in Mumbai, you can hear the noise outside with the hoots of the horn and I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Harsha Bogley. Enjoy the show.

12:20Down.

12:20Michael Vaughan: That's all they're doing. There's no ball. Where do you see Baz McCollum? I think he liberated English cricket. I look at the last three and a half years and think, do you know what, I've really enjoyed it. But I've now got to the stage of, but what have we won? One of the great joys in my life is watching Gumra grow. I think he's an absolute genius. Will we see India versus Pakistan in a test series again?

12:50Michael Vaughan: Well, I start the show properly then, Harsh. I think we're ready to go. There's a little bit of action still going on in the corner.

12:56Harsha Bhogle: There will always be action. The first thing you learn as an anchor in this country is ignore everything that's around you.

13:02Michael Vaughan: To be honest, Harsh, it's exactly like the studio back in Altingham. There you go. There's a lot going on. There's a bar going to the right. There's generally people hustling around the back. Tough as he's usually doing a demo in the corner. Bumble was meant to be here.

13:18Harsha Bhogle: Yeah.

13:18Michael Vaughan: Because of the problems in the Middle East, Bumble's flight, and three of the crew were coming. So, unfortunately, brilliantly, we've got a new crew here, and you've just got me.

13:30Harsha Bhogle: But I must tell all of you, I know Michael Vaughan, the cricketer. I know Michael Vaughan, the broadcaster. Today was Michael Vaughan, the impresario. He's just looking around, supervising everything. Are the windows clean? Sorry, get the windows clean. Sorry, is the floor all right? The cameras are going. We found some fruit.

13:48Michael Vaughan: We've found some fruit, we've found some nice cookies to the colours of our show. Strawberries. Strawberries. I've got to show you, we've put some tissue underneath. Just to make the strawberries stand out and look that little bit better. Morning after the night before. Yes. England lose narrowly to India in a semi-final at the Wankade. In my opinion, the Wankade is the best venue in India.

14:17Harsha Bhogle: I just think the atmosphere... It just rises up tall, doesn't it? The crowd are on top. You know why it rises tall?

14:22Michael Vaughan: Go on.

14:23Harsha Bhogle: Because there's no space for it to go as a saucer. A lot of cricket grounds are like saucers. That's right. This one can't go up because it goes up because there's no space on the sides. So when they redid it for the 2011 World Cup final, they just had to get it to go up because there's buildings on one side and the railway track on the other.

14:40Michael Vaughan: I guess if it was a saucer, it would end up in the sea. There you go. It's so close to Marine Drive. What is your recollections of last night? What was it that India managed to do that just got them over the line?

14:54Harsha Bhogle: I think they said before it started they'd be fearless. And you saw Sanju Samson, obviously. I mean, me and Bish have a little private Sanju Samson fan club for the last few years. But the innings that Ishan Kishan played. You've lost your talisman player who suddenly can't score a run. And India just went on. go boom boom boom boom boom at one point I'm telling myself I think they'll get to 220 230 and at one point I said is 250 going to be enough but this Indian team just plays fearlessly and what I love about T20 cricket is what India embodied it's not about one player it's not about landmarks it's not about whether you got a 50 it's not whether you got a hundred in the time that you have did you make an impact Hardik Pandya made an impact Tilakwarma made an impact Shivam Dubey made an impact even Sura Kumar Yadu 11 of six he's played six balls but he's not made three of it he's made 11.

15:45Harsha Bhogle: I thought that that is what I enjoyed the most.

15:48Michael Vaughan: And I mean cricket in India has always been incredibly special. Yes it's I guess the topic of still everyone's conversation but this Indian side just seems to I mean they're now obviously they've got a chance to retain the T20 World Cup they won it two years ago in the Caribbean they're the ICC 50 over champions so they have a chance of winning. Champions Trophy? Yeah Champions Trophy. So you're looking at potentially winning three on the trot. Yes. The women. The women champions. So are there this juggernaut that are going to be very difficult to stop in white ball cricket?

16:23Harsha Bhogle: I think in the white ball game, yes. Definitely. In T20 especially. Even though T20 is a lottery, on the day anyone can win it. Finn Allen has a great day. And South Africa will be the best team in the tournament getting knocked out. But there was a time when parents would go to coaches and want their sons to play for India. Now they're going to coaches and they're saying, make my son an IPL player. Is that right? It's slowly starting to happen with the young girls starting to come into line. And parents are now saying, because a lot of rural India is very traditional, very difficult for girls to come through there and play cricket.

16:58And they're all now saying, oh, if Smriti Mandana can do it,

17:02Harsha Bhogle: or Shafali Varma can do it, Jamie Rodericks can do it, Harman Preet can do it, why not my girls? There's a revolution happening at that level just below. I hope they're saying, can you play test cricket? But I wouldn't be surprised if they're not.

17:14Michael Vaughan: I mean, we're going to dissect into last night's game. But I have to say, most mornings I walk from the hotel and I go round the back and I go down the street. I'll get a brew and I always have a walk around. Are you back at your favourite time? I am, yeah. It's a lovely place to stay. And I walk down to the Oval Madan. It's just a historic place for cricket. And every morning there's games, there's nets. There's all sorts going on. There's games with hardball. There's games with those rubber balls that fly everywhere. They go on the roads. And I'd say for the first time, and maybe I've missed it in the past, but it was the first time that I've walked around the Oval Madan and I've seen lots of girls playing cricket as well in the morning.

17:52Michael Vaughan: And I looked at that and thought, fantastic.

17:54Harsha Bhogle: When I first came to Mumbai, I came from Hyderabad to Mumbai, and I had to play cricket in Mumbai for two years because I was working in advertising. There's inter-company matches, so I had to play for a couple of years. So we'd go to Shivaji Park, we'd go to all these places, and the coaches there would be training kids in forward defence. Do I have space to move? Yeah, yeah.

18:15Michael Vaughan: Well, Tophish usually does the Dano. Go on, Harsha. So it used to be like, just imagine there's a bat,

18:19Harsha Bhogle: and there's about 15 kids standing in a row like this, 20 sometimes, and the coach is saying, forward, down. That's all they're doing. There's no ball.

18:33Harsha Bhogle: low sniff the leather that's what we're taught us to get stiff the leather then they'd move to cover drive there's no ball you're just practicing your movements but the whole thing was about defense today where's your foot going is your foot going to the pitch is your foot going away

18:49Michael Vaughan: so it's it's changing but yeah that's how it used to be i did see uh it was last time at the moment where most of the kids because they school in the week yeah and there was that that kind of session going on. They had little cones, but they did have a ball and they were kind of putting the head and playing the shot.

19:01Harsha Bhogle: But that's why you'd see a lot of young kids coming through

19:03Michael Vaughan: looking very correct. I like a bit of chaos. Computer going in the corner, doing a bit of work. So this semi-final, the batting from India is spectacular. The last three games, Zimbabwe, West Indies and now against England. I mean, they had that blip against South Africa earlier in the tournament and I actually said straight after After that game, I thought, they've had the blip. But they might need a little bit of fortune. They needed the West Indies to lose to South Africa in the Supres, and then it gave them that opportunity to beat Zimbabwe, and obviously it was a quarterfinal against the West Indies.

19:40Michael Vaughan: From there on in, it was almost as if that performance, particularly the batting performance against South Africa, it was the jolt that the Indian team needed. Perhaps. And it was like, oh, and you go back two years ago in the 50-over World Cup, and I hate to bring it up again, but they played the perfect tournament. and they had the one blip in the final. And I just wonder whether that blip against South Africa is their one blip.

20:04Harsha Bhogle: I just wonder, people say when you're playing Wimbledon, it's much better to have tough games in the third, fourth round and the quarterfinals so that you're ready. If you're just sort of sailing through in straight sets, you might struggle in the semis and the final. But I think this Indian team, I don't know how good they are playing 160, 170 games because the art of playing spin with the ball stopping turning in its very home is now reducing. I think India are very good playing 220 games. Right, when the pitch is flat. Flat, see the line, hit the line, they play power games beautifully and they have two gun bowlers who give you eight overs.

20:43Harsha Bhogle: One of them is struggling, Varun Chakravarti and Bumrah. So when you're playing Bumrah, you're saying, OK, I've got 20 overs, the opposition's got 16. And I think they just back themselves. to keep going. That's why eight batters.

20:57Michael Vaughan: New Zealand will probably pat the batting with nine. I would think Cole McConsie will bat at number nine.

21:02Harsha Bhogle: At number nine. But New Zealand have a lot of players in the top order who bowl India don't. So India's stuck with five bowlers, so they have to score that many rounds.

21:08Michael Vaughan: You've got a bit of shiv and douba. He's been hit for 68 in his last three overs.

21:12Harsha Bhogle: I mean, I'm not worried about the last three sixes the game was over by then.

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23:17Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. You mentioned a couple of really interesting things. there. You go back probably 5, 10, particularly 15 years ago. If the pitch is spun, teams from the southern hemisphere, the UK, had no chance. You look at this World Cup, India have kind of scratched their way through with the West Indies losing to South Africa and they're in the final. The best team. Pakistan have struggled. Sri Lanka have struggled. 15, 20 years ago, I think, all four semi finalists would have been from the subcontinent. There's a huge change in the way that teams are playing spin.

24:00And people that are brought up

24:02Michael Vaughan: playing spin don't seem to play as well as they used to. Is that fair? It is.

24:07Harsha Bhogle: And you'll notice there was a time when it was all the wristies were doing well. When the ball stops and turns, it's always the finger spinners. So you see Rajan Ravindra will bowl well, Santana will bowl well, Phillips will come and bowl a little bit. You've only got to bowl two overs. But it is true. When the ball is stopping and turning, even in our Ranji Trophy cricket, India have lost test matches Well, they lost 3-0 to New Zealand. And South Africa. Lost to whom? Simon Harmer. So the art of playing spin bowling is slowly going out in a way. Why is that? I don't know if it's because of the pitches in Ranji Trophy cricket.

24:42Harsha Bhogle: You're not getting the same bowlers and there's a lot of T20 cricket around.

24:46Michael Vaughan: I guess they're setting themselves up to strike and smack. But even the ability for...

24:52Harsha Bhogle: I mean, you come and watch the IPO. Names that you've not heard of will suddenly come and hit 34 of 16 balls in an IPO. So the primary goal is playing IPO.

25:02Michael Vaughan: I mean, back to last night, I looked at, you know, Sanju Samson got player in the match. You could easily have given it Jacob Bethel, that innings, and we'll talk about that in a minute. Maybe even Bumrah. I was just going to come to that. Okay. Jasper Bumrah, four overs, one for 33. but I think I could go on a stage as a speaker to put a very strong case of why Boomer should have been man of the match

25:26Harsha Bhogle: Interestingly on social media last night there were a lot of people saying why not Boomer because he comes on and gets the number one threat I know Bethel got the runs the number one threat is Harry Brook how on earth he was batting number five I don't know, I'm not a former player I'm not this expert I'm looking at England and saying what is Brook doing at five in a T20 game there you go But Brook was the number one threat. And Boomerah comes in for Brook. Then he comes in. There's 45 of three, Michael. There's 45 of three you're batting. Would you play out an over and say, I'll get the runs of the last two, but I won't attack Boomerah.

26:03Harsha Bhogle: And I think that's where they get. They had to attack Boomerah.

26:05Michael Vaughan: I think to Sam Curran's defence and Jacob, who faced a couple of balls in that Boomerah, I think he bowled such a good over that it was hard for the hit. And there was a stat that came, we both work on cricket balls, and straight away after the game we looked at the Yorkers. And it's like, it's a skill that's gone out of the game. How dare you mention the Yorker, it's such an old way of bowling. You can't bowl the Yorkers in this area, it doesn't work. Well England bowled three Yorkers yesterday, they went for six runs. India bowled 15 attempted Yorkers, and they were hit for 22 runs. You could, again, make a very strong case is that the Yorker, that India delivered more and better, won India the game.

26:48Harsha Bhogle: And that's a very fair call. I can see why people are not bowling the Yorker because you miss it by three inches either way and it's gone out of the ground. So it requires a very special bowler to be able to bowl that Yorker. And Bhumra is just one of the great joys in my life is watching Bhumra grow.

27:06Michael Vaughan: I agree. I mean, I said it a few years ago, I honestly feel he's the best ball that I've ever seen. And, you know, you always get a few talking about those back in the day. I didn't see those back in the day in the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. I didn't see them ball. 20s, 30s. But they all talk about SF Barnes, you know. Yeah. He's not as good as SF Barnes. But in my time watching and playing the game, I've not seen anyone better. And that's across all three formats. So I just think he's got this amazing ability to read the game as well. Not only does he deliver all the skills, it's in-swing, out-swing, slow balls, bounces, pace, off-pace, whatever you want to bowl, Jasper will find it.

27:49Michael Vaughan: And you kind of look at spinners, and we talk about spinners when they bowl on a wicket. They've got to find the pace for that pitch. Bumras seems to find the skill for that pitch quicker than anybody. So last night in the semi, he knew. He'd seen the England, you know, Joffre Arch went for 61. bowled into the deck, just kept, you know, De Juan Cady, you know, you just get picked up, it flies into the stand, and that's what happened against Joffre Archie. He probably looked at Jamie Everton, I think, bowled two Yorkers straight, hard to hit. He saw Joffre Archie bowled Tillet-Vammer with a Yorker, bowled him.

28:18Michael Vaughan: And I reckon he sits in the dugout in the first innings, not thinking about, do I need to go out there and strike a few with a bat? He's thinking, right, what are the hardest balls to hit? And then he takes that out to when he bowls. I think he's an absolute genius of what he delivers, and I've not seen anybody in my time better than Jasper Bumma.

28:37Harsha Bhogle: I saw him in 2013 playing for Mumbai Indians against RCB. You read The Wizard of Oz? There's a character called the Tin Man in The Wizard of Oz. He's on hinges. So he comes as a tin man and here's this tin man coming, going wide of the crease, slanting it in. I said, yeah, just another bowl of weird action. All young bowlers in India these days slant it in. No one bowls the outswinger, hardly anyone. And he got Virat Kohli out and I said, yeah, newness factor. But with every year I saw Boomerang, I saw a new delivery. The straight one came, the outswinger came, worked a lot with Lasit Malinga at Mumbai Indians to learn to bowl the Yorker.

29:15Harsha Bhogle: The IPL is like, it's not just the best cricket in the world, it's also the best thoughts in the world. The best minds in the world come here. It's like the equivalent of going to Davos maybe, where all the minds in the world of business and finance are there. And just to see Boomerang grow. As you said, he picks it up so quickly. Very intelligent man. Mother's the headmistress in school. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. Is that right? And all these boys, Mike, I don't know if it's well known in England, the hunger comes because they've all had very, very difficult upbringing. And I sometimes say, I see England in Australia, and I said there are two words that I would love them to have.

29:55Harsha Bhogle: Hunger, just a desire. What, you think they were lacking that? Life is too easy. Life is very easy. I mean, what is failure? Failure is you go to Noosa and have a drink and come back. Your failure is you're forgotten. If failure means you're forgotten. If failure means that you go back and get a job that gives you hardly any money and your whole life is a struggle, that is what failure means. And a lot of these boys, Rishabh Pan, Jaspreet Bumrah, a lot of them single-parent families, all of them Cheteshwar Pujara, Virat Kohli a lot of them come from single parent families and the hunger they just practice six hours eight hours a day because that is their passports to everything else our generation education was a passport to everything else our parents didn't give us an inheritance they just gave us education this generation they just work so hard the hunger is incredible.

30:52Michael Vaughan: Do you think that's a kind of global feeling potentially of what England are? Because they don't desperately need it. I'm with you because I think I had a little bit of that. I think I had a little bit of that in my career that once I'd done X and Y it was like okay because I kind of knew that I was going to be okay. You say the Indian players are worried about being forgot. In the UK I don't think there is that worry. I think it is a comfortable environment. It's a great environment to live in the UK as a cricketer. That inner drive, that inner kind of whatever it is, I think there's something in that.

31:33Michael Vaughan: But how can England get that? I mean, they have. If you look at the 21st century, England have done some special things. They've won Ashes Series in Home and Away. They've won in India in 2012. They've won 50 over World Cup, the men's team. two T20 World Cups in Barbados and in Australia. So they've done okay. But in recent times, my fear, and I think the fear of the global game, is that India have got, I think, India's second team that they would have put out for the T20 World Cup and potentially a 50-over World Cup or Champions Trophy. I think potentially that would be the second best team in the tournament.

32:11Michael Vaughan: There's no Jaiswal in this team.

32:12Harsha Bhogle: Shubham and Gil? There's no Shubham and Gil in this team. there's a lot of people who could easily come into the side and you'd be absolutely fine. I don't know. Look you beat the Aussies playing like the Aussies. When you won the 2005 Ashes you beat the Aussies playing like Aussies. The reason you're liked in Australia is because Aussies love people come hard at them. But I think it's important why was Jimmy Anderson different? Came from the same background so maybe there's that hunger inside and I sometimes wonder it's too easy I had a bad day let me go to the apartment that option doesn't exist in India doesn't exist in Pakistan doesn't exist in Sri Lanka so your failure lives with you your whole family plays the game so just you your whole family a whole community is playing the game when you do well the whole community celebrates Rinku Singh is a fringe player with his eye with his IPL income he goes and sets up a school where people who can't afford get all their gear and everything else.

33:13Harsha Bhogle: There's Natarajan. You remember Natarajan? He comes from a small town outside of Salem, outside of Chennai. Comes to Chennai to play league cricket. But he can only play for a team that gives him shoes. Because he doesn't have a pair of fast bowling shoes. So he can only play for a team that gives him that. Can you imagine the hunger he has? And then when he goes back with his IPL money, he trains people, gives them the kit so they can come and play senior division cricket in Chennai. So that hunger, I think, is different. When I went to England, I worked on Test Mat Special for the first time in 1996.

33:44Harsha Bhogle: I was telling myself, do well because you're representing India. If you do well on Test Mat Special, people will think that an Indian can come and broadcast on an English channel. So that hunger, it's very different.

33:57Michael Vaughan: Yeah, it's fascinating. I mean, you kind of look at, you know, what India have now and the structure, the pathway, the facilities here in India now, the performance centre up in Bangalore is second to none. I mean, Mumbai, I've got one here in Mumbai, which is state of the art. You kind of look at Indian cricket and in white ball cricket, I fear. But I look and think, why is the test team struggling so much? I generally think with the talent that India have, the players that they have, and the structure that they have, I'm staggered that they don't dominate everything. Because they've got billions that watch it, billions that play it, the talent that, and every, you know, 15, 20 years ago, did they have a pace bowl in cartel?

34:45Michael Vaughan: No, they have that now in abundance. And you kind of go, why aren't you dominating everything? I know white ball, but why isn't the Indian team dominate test 50s and t20s i think that's happened in the last two or three years if you remember

34:59Harsha Bhogle: 2018 2021 india win in australia 2022 in kovid india go to england the 2-1 ahead and don't play the last last game i never got my head around that you're leading 2-1 against england in england you don't play the last game by the time you come back england's a different side the series is 2-2 but india were beating england in england almost so till about 22 20 i think i think india was doing that because there was a very powerful fast bowling core some makes you've got to give credit to virat kohli for that holy always wanted to play with fast bowling and ishan shama's revival came with virat kohli but it was all boom boom run shami really we forget shami very quickly boom rush shami siraj now boomer only plays a little bit and you look around india every time i meet former players i say is there a spinner that gets you excited i said no i'm not sure no Not sure.

35:52Harsha Bhogle: Not sure. There's a couple of beautiful left arm spinners coming through, but they all have to bat.

35:57Michael Vaughan: Well, it's 20 years ago. They've been...

35:59Harsha Bhogle: Everywhere. Everywhere.

36:00Michael Vaughan: Everywhere.

36:01Harsha Bhogle: So Ashwin's gone. So if you see India's great run at home from 2014 to 2023, coincided with Ravi Ashwin's career. Yeah. Suddenly Ashwin's gone. Jadeja's moving on. Yeah, I must admit, there's something about Ashwin's bowling that is wonderful. It's wonderful. Street cricket. Came up from street cricket, but mine are always ticking. He told me this story once about how to bowl to Steve Smith. We were doing a program together like this. And he said, I was just watching Steve Smith every single moment, watching Steve Smith bat. And my wife thought I had a man crush on him. And he said, I'm wondering how do I stop Steve Smith?

36:43Harsha Bhogle: He said, and then I realized his game was all about the speed with which the bat comes down. He said, if I can play around with the speed with which his bat comes down, then maybe I can get Steve Smith out. Now, how do I get him to get confused about his bat speed? He said, that's what I kept thinking about all along. He's an engineer. They're on, huh? A lot of the players from the south, huh? Is that right? Prasanna, Venkatragvan. I remember sitting with Prasanna in a lobby once, and I said, how does the ball drop? How do you guys get a ball to drop? because when we bought off spin, when it left the hand, it went in a perfect parable and landed exactly where it was supposed to.

37:19Harsha Bhogle: And he took out a napkin and a pen and said, this is the force with which it is being released. This is the force, gravitational force, pulling the ball down. The resultant of two forces will get the ball to drop over here and for that, the ball needs to have that much spin on it. We call it revs. It's not revs, it's rotating. And it falls there. So they think a lot about the game, these spinners.

37:44Michael Vaughan: I've never heard the terminology of force on forces

37:47Harsha Bhogle: because that's what it is that is how the ball dips if I balled off spin the ball would never dip

37:52Michael Vaughan: and that's when got it to dip more than if I balled off spin

37:54Harsha Bhogle: it would never dip yeah

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40:00Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. So, from your perspective, I look at England now, you have to identify the last few months of English cricket. Because all the talk will be, what happens from here on in? The Ashes was a poor Ashes. It was a disaster. Everything just didn't go right. They won that one game in Melbourne. They've obviously come to the T20 World Cup. They played one day in the T20 series in Sri Lanka before the World Cup. good preparation for the conditions that they've played in. Don't want to go back through the lack of preparation for the Ashes. But from a perspective from here in Mumbai, where do you see Baz McCollum and his position as the England coach?

40:46Harsha Bhogle: I think he liberated English cricket. I loved watching how England were playing because he liberated them. But I think, I was watching from a distance, and I thought you needed to take seven wickets only. You didn't need to take 10 because you got three sometimes. That's the feeling we got. England came to India. England's best player is Joe Root. By some distance, England's best player. And he's getting out reverse sweeping, caught at backward point. And I thought, you didn't earn that wicket. You got it. And you see when Root goes back to playing the way that comes naturally, he's the best batter in the world again.

41:17Harsha Bhogle: I got the feeling that you only needed to get seven wickets. But if you look at England now, they've got a wicket keeper who's going to be around for a very long time. Serious batter. They've got Brook, they've got Bethel. You've already got the batting around whom you can build a side, but I still think it comes too easy. That's my view. I'm not an expert on the game, but I just... So when you say it comes...

41:40Michael Vaughan: The praise of this England regime has been the culture that's been quite relaxed, and it's given the players the freedom to go and run towards the danger, is a term that's been used. do you think there needs to be a tightening up and a little bit more it's not going back to the old days you have to be here on that day and that time I agree that players need a bit of freedom but I do think the disciplines because I look at the last three and a half years and think, do you know what, I've really enjoyed it but I've now got to the stage of but what have we won and I heard Baz McCullum on Sky last night after the game, he said, oh we've had some cool cool moments.

42:24Michael Vaughan: Cool moments are great when you're starting out, but once you get to that journey of three or four years deep, I want those cool moments to be that. That's cool for me, lifting a trophy. And so far in this last few years, we've not won a national series, we've not beaten India, we haven't won an ICC event. Would you change that or would you allow Baz McCollum the chance to reflect, get home, reflect? Because he's had a busy winter, he's been on the road, get home in a couple of weeks time and reflect because if I hear and again I listened to his interview last night it was it came across in a way that he felt that they didn't stick to their their values in Australia of what they'd done for the previous three years which was running towards the danger and I would say do you know what I actually think they did stick to their values in the first test in birth and it cost them they stuck to their values against India at the oval the last morning It cost them.

43:22Michael Vaughan: The second test at Adelaide, they stuck to their values. It cost them. So they're 2-0 down. The first innings in Adelaide, England went aggressively, got balled out for a lot less than they should have done. They lost that game. So I reckon they did play the expansive game at the wrong times in Australia. And then they started to play a little bit differently. I guess the Melbourne victory was a bit of a free hit.

43:47Harsha Bhogle: The oval, I cannot imagine how they lost that oval test. I mean, Sirajibol beautifully, that's all right. How can you lose that oval test?

43:54Michael Vaughan: But this is the point, Harsha, that I'm making, is that I can't have the excuses that they weren't true to their values because their values have actually lost them big moments, the oval. Their values have made them go 1-0 down, 2-0 down in Australia and the first innings in Adelaide. So if I start hearing that the England set-up or maybe the captain or some of the players didn't quite play true to their word, which has been the case for the last three years, I have to say I'm sorry, but winning away in Pakistan and winning away in New Zealand is not a legacy. RIC series, Indian series, RIC events are legacy moments, and they haven't won any.

44:35Michael Vaughan: So if Baz is willing to accept and move forward and say, okay yeah we've just got to go up and down in the gears at the right time which is what test cricket is i'm actually fine with him carrying on yeah but it would have to include a little bit of a change in the back room because i look at barcelona football i think barcelona football have the best model where they kind of always promote from within yeah yeah they kind of always they lose their manager there's someone from within i look at our system at the minute and go that's not in place. So you feel if one went, it's like a management group, the whole lot has to go.

45:08Michael Vaughan: You have to start again. And you can't keep starting afresh every three or four years and clearing out everybody. That's just not going to help. So I'm really happy if Bav carried on that. He learns and he moves forward. I'm happy with that. But I think he has to involve the English game a little bit more than he has done.

45:24Harsha Bhogle: You're a savvy investor. Let me give you an investment parallel. You invest in debt, 100 % safe sovereign bonds you invest in equity markets and sometimes you take a punt on startups. There are people who play the hedge funds, there are people who play the equity funds. I think sometimes you've got to have a balanced portfolio and say the turbulent times I need 40 % of my portfolio in safe debt. I think that morning at the Oval if England had played like a debt portfolio manager, saying I've got the time I won't take a chance I'll just play safe. I'll play with my, in India we say 6-7 % returns, maybe 2-3 % returns in England because there's no inflation.

46:05Harsha Bhogle: It's got to be tied to inflation anyway. And I'll just play, I'll take my 2-3 % returns. I don't need 20 % returns today. And I'll win the test match with 2-3 % returns. So I still think England need to have that balance. And who has it right is Joe Root.

46:20Michael Vaughan: I love that because you're absolutely spot on because every moment that I look at that has been pressure, which is the last day at the over, win the game, win the game. The second afternoon in Perth, just play, win that day, you win the game. The first innings in Adelaide, the way that they played in Brisbane. You kind of look at that and think, the terminology, a start-up investment is a huge, huge risk. You're basically given a bit of money and realistically you're thinking, it's probably gone. but I'm willing to give you that money and you know what, if it comes a whew, you're getting a big return.

47:01I think England invest in start-ups

47:05Michael Vaughan: at the wrong times. Well, the start-up with the keeper has worked. The start-up with Bethel has worked. Individual players. Individual players. I'm talking about the moments of the game. But I still think... And the way that they play at certain moments, it's like all in risk. And you're right, I think I'd rather just go, just put a little bit in that fund. In debt. But there's been in debt. Let me play safe today. Play safe. You've done the work to get to that. You've invested in a startup to get to that moment. Now just put the money in debt.

47:31Harsha Bhogle: I'll tell you what else India do right. It's not that India does everything right. India's under-19 coach for a long time was Rahul Dravid. Rahul Dravid is teaching them cricket, but he's teaching them life. Hardik Pandya talks about how Rahul Dravid told him, you had a bad spell, yes, but when you get to international cricket, this is what will harm you. Come back. who's teaching them, who's with them now is VVS Lakshman. Not a soul in the world speaks a bad word about VVS Lakshman. Very traditional, but very intelligent. Got into medical college on his own merit, but chose to play cricket. But he's teaching these young people about values and about sport.

48:10Harsha Bhogle: And I think at the under 19 level, if you've got your finest human beings as coach, I think that just sets it up. That's just my view.

48:19Michael Vaughan: A little old-fashioned. Well obviously the under 19s from India beat England in the final. Who was I listening to? Suryavanchi with 175.

48:28Harsha Bhogle: I was listening to Alistair Cook talking about Suryavanchi on your programme.

48:33Michael Vaughan: Well he's... I asked Dr. Shman about him.

48:36Harsha Bhogle: And he says... I said is he really that good? He said that's all. So that means we've got another one coming through that's going to be... But he doesn't block a ball. At some point he's got to block a ball.

48:46Michael Vaughan: I see him in white ball cricket. I'd be interested to see how it goes.

48:51Harsha Bhogle: Because of him, Radistan Royals have let Sanju Sampson go to CSK. Because they've got Jaswal and Suryawanshi opening for them.

49:03Michael Vaughan: Let's move to the final. I mentioned earlier about 2023. It was a Southern Hemisphere team on that day. Pat Cummings made the call the day before, want to silence the crowd, there'll be 100 and what? 10 ,000? Surely, surely India get over the line. 2019, New Zealand stop India.

49:27Harsha Bhogle: 2016, on a turner in Nagpur, New Zealand stop India. Everyone talks about Australia, England. You know who's been India's bogey side over the years? It's New Zealand. Over the years, it's been India's bogey side. It's just that we love New Zealand so much.

49:41Michael Vaughan: But India beat them 4-1 in the bilateral series, which count for very little these days. Nothing at all.

49:48Harsha Bhogle: Bilateral series and tournament play are two different beasts. Tournament play and knockout tournament play. You saw South Africa. South Africa against New Zealand. I'm watching South Africa and I'm saying, what have you got lead in your feet? I can't say that on air. I don't have the credibility to say that on air. But they just looked. Aidan Markham, what a player. He just looked tournament play. I think New Zealand have nothing to lose. Beware the person's got nothing to lose. Well, yeah, they've also got, and I said it on this show, I do think they're the best team in the world for what they have.

50:17Michael Vaughan: Yeah, you gave the pad of the box, didn't you? For what they deliver, they're just incredible. And they have an opening partnership that if they get going, Seifert and Finn Allen, I saw them in the Big Bash, both of them. I mean, we talk about Zach Crowley and Ben Duckett, you know, left hand, right hand, but it's little and large. You know, the bowlers have got to kind of change the length. And I think Seifert and Finn Allen, I mean, Finn Allen is a... He reminds me of when Matthew Hayden was in his stance. Yes. He was a monster. Yes. And I could only imagine, I didn't get the chance, and thankfully I didn't bowl to him much.

50:50Michael Vaughan: But I could only imagine running up to bowl to like Matthew Hayden, you just see this big brute. And I think it's the same to Finn Allen. He must be running to bowl going... And we mentioned earlier about the yoke, if you miss anything to Finn Allen, it's out of the ground.

51:04Harsha Bhogle: Is he going to go into bat thinking, oops, what if I get a top edge? If he thinks that way, he'll get out. But they've got nothing to lose. They bat deep. They've got players who just come in. It's not fair to New Zealand, isn't it? We keep saying they over-deliver. But they've done it so often. I think it's unfair to say that anymore.

51:23Michael Vaughan: They like that. And again, it's because of people like us who talk so much about the game that we do mention that. But I think New Zealand love being under the radar, that no one talks about them. They know how good they are.

51:34Harsha Bhogle: The stealth bombers.

51:35Michael Vaughan: They know. Again, you look at South Africa, they're a wonderful T20 team. You look at New Zealand, you look at their players from 1 to 11, and you look around the franchise leagues around the world. They're all sorts after. Yes. All of them.

51:48Harsha Bhogle: Work ethic, your guaranteed work ethic. Hunger. Hunger. Also, New Zealand have been very pragmatic right from the day the IPL started. New Zealand said, we can't match that money. So we'll adjust our schedule, go and play the IPL. doesn't matter so they finish their cricket in March every year by sort of in Feb March go and play the IP we can't match the money but we don't want to lose players so we won't come in your way and see how sought after there because you get work ethic you get fitness you don't always get work ethic with everybody and so they're very and the team players yeah they've got the

52:24Michael Vaughan: mean Santa's a wonderful spin a good captain I always like the one player they're missing his brace was he would have completed the side so Walters is a coach there but over the last eight years where they've had some good success you know the one the world's a championship farm they're always there thereabouts in the white ball game but the coaches never stand down they're always under the radar I think there's a little bit in that you know I look at the two you know Andrew McDonald in Australia I love the way that he operates he's just under the radar you know Gautam Gambia Basma call them they're so well known because of their careers so well they're the two coaches that get talked about more than any other and these under the radar coaches the south african coach under the radar the coach is the provider

53:07Harsha Bhogle: the coaches support staff it's interesting i don't know if you know this story but when indian players after they were i think it was a t20 world cup or one of them when they got a big bonus for winning it the players and the coach got the bonus and it was a slightly lesser amount for the support staff and Rahul Drabid said, no, I'm support staff. And he refused the higher amount because he said, the coach is support staff. The coach is not a lead. The coach is support staff. So I should get the bonus that the support staff get, not what the main player gets. Right. The coaches always support staff.

53:40Harsha Bhogle: And I get along very well with Gautam actually. For some reason, we get along. I messaged him. I said, Gautam, it's not your fight anymore.

53:47Michael Vaughan: Does he smile ever? No. No.

53:50Harsha Bhogle: I said,

53:50Michael Vaughan: but it's not your fight. He must do behind the scenes. It must be his like persona.

53:53Harsha Bhogle: All his heroes are from the armed forces. Left to himself, he would have joined the army. Is that right? That's who all his heroes are. But the message to him is, it's not your fight anymore, Gautam.

54:04Michael Vaughan: I have to say, look at what he's done at KKR.

54:08Harsha Bhogle: Yeah.

54:08Michael Vaughan: In the IPL. You now look at what he's doing in T20 cricket. He gets it. He gets it.

54:14Harsha Bhogle: The LSG auction. Fantastic auction. LSG picked just the right players. you want one. You want eight batters and six bowlers in a team of 11.

54:24Michael Vaughan: And that's what he's put together there. He's a smart operator with the white ball stubborn. He's got plenty of talent to work with. Right, let's just have a prediction for the final. I've said it for the... I just can't see anyone... I just see India...

54:41Harsha Bhogle: With no disrespect to New Zealand, I thought the India-England game was the final. But with New Zealand, you never know.

54:49Michael Vaughan: I'll tell you what I'll ask you, are you happy with another final being in Ahmedabad? Or should it be in Chennai or should it be here in Mumbai? I know it's political.

54:58Harsha Bhogle: No, I'd love it to be in Mumbai. It's just that there's 120 ,000 people who turn up there. But the atmosphere that Mumbai gives you, or even the Chinnaswami in Bangalore, there's not a lot of games there, but the atmosphere that it gives you. And I think the players just feel empowered by that atmosphere. It can be intimidating. I remember talking, do you know a player called Luke Ronke? Yes. Luke Ronke played his first season for Mumbai Indians. He's walking in to bat at the 1K Day. He said, I was in a daze. I was just looking at everything. I was with the Mumbai Indians in the first year. And he said, I was just in a daze.

55:28Harsha Bhogle: I think it can intimidate the opposition when you come in, even if they've played before. Yeah. But I think India have to start favourites for that one.

55:36Michael Vaughan: And again, I'll ask you in the final, is it going to be, and it's a much talked about debate here in India, is it going to be red soil or is it going to be black soil? Black soil generally is a bit slower in spins. Red soil is a road. What are we going for?

55:47Harsha Bhogle: India want a road.

55:49Michael Vaughan: So that means it'll be a red-solid pitch.

55:51Harsha Bhogle: The Indian team is structured. So you're telling me India won't get what they want? No, they'll get what they want. That's all right. I know it's an ICC tournament, but if you're playing a final at Lawrence and England are playing against somebody and England have a very good seam attack, you'd expect there to be. I agree. I have no issues with the home advantage. Next year, the World Cup's in South Africa. If it's an India-South Africa final, I'm not complaining. If it's a seeming track, because home advantage is legitimate. There's nothing wrong.

56:22Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Harsha, we've finished these shows with some community questions. Hello. You all good? Great, that's cool.

56:36Harsha Bhogle: I love how he just goes off and does these conversations. And that's going to go on air. You'll be on air too.

56:42Michael Vaughan: Come in and say hello to the camera. Just come in and say hello. That's fine. I like your trainers. I've got some of those. Yeah, they're pretty cool. Some community questions, Harsha, to finish with. Who do you think has been the player of the tournament ahead of the final?

57:02Harsha Bhogle: Ah, there have been so many great individual performances. But how many players have consistently taken their team over the line? You look at Bill Jacks. Taking you over the line. even yesterday, comes in and bowls those off-breaks. Will Jacks?

57:21Michael Vaughan: Sanju Samson, two and two.

57:23Harsha Bhogle: Two and two. Sanju Samson, two and two.

57:25Michael Vaughan: When it's mattered most?

57:28Harsha Bhogle: Normally, you look at the teams that have made the semi-final. I guess you're looking at that. But if you cannot pick a player of the tournament, it means it's been a good tournament.

57:39Michael Vaughan: I have to say, Will Jacks had a fantastic semi-final as well. If I had to pick one player who's been the consistent player across all the group stages, the Super 8s and obviously the semi-final. It took a great catch to get him out in the semi-final. It did and you can look at Will Jackson, the IPL auction was this week and what he's done in the last four weeks. His number. I did notice, Jacob Bethel is a generational player, he's incredible what he's done. He's now got 100 in all three formats in the space of six months.

58:10Harsha Bhogle: You know, if I was in the England camp, before the game, I'd go up to Joffre Archer and just shake him. And say, Archer, can I get you angry? I don't want you to bowl those dibbly-dobbly slower ones. I remember he played for Mumbai. I just overheard this. I don't know if I'm allowed to say it. The presentation's over Rohit Sharma's captain of Mumbai Indians. They've lost. Archer's been hit. And he's telling someone in our language. He said, dear, he bowls so fast. Why does he bowl these slower ones? Can you please tell him not to bowl these slower ones?

58:37Michael Vaughan: I reckon his slower baller's gone for plenty in this World Cup.

58:40Harsha Bhogle: I'd just shake him up, make him angry.

58:42Michael Vaughan: But he's a wonderful talent. He bowls some tremendous spells in the ashes. It's great to see him back playing, but I just don't think he hits the stumps often enough. You know, Bummer, I know he's a different kind of bowler, but I think Joffre bowls good Yorkers. Every time I get him, just continually ask or tell the batter, by the way, I can still eat your stumps.

59:03Harsha Bhogle: You're the captain. Get into his mind. Get into his mind. Generation, what a player.

59:09Michael Vaughan: Anyway, so maybe I'm still actually going for Will Jacks. Yeah, Will Jacks I think is my choice. Best bowling performance? There should have been so many games. I should have prepped before coming. So best batting, best bowling, I mean, I would say...

59:23Harsha Bhogle: Best batting, there have been so many. There's been Sanju Sampson, there's been Finn Allen, there's been Harry Brook going up to number three, there's been Patum Nisanka, who got that brilliant hundred. Yeah. So there's been so many great batting performances. It's a batting game.

59:38Michael Vaughan: Yeah, it is. I would choose. I'd choose Harry Brooks 100 against Pakistan on that pitch. Yeah. I thought I was a special innings. It was a tricky wicket. You know, the rest of the England batters was... Ishan Kishan against Pakistan? Yeah, yeah.

59:51Harsha Bhogle: 77 or 40. But that Harry Brooks 100...

59:54Michael Vaughan: Yeah, 100 on that pitch. That Harry Brooks 100. In that moment of the World Cup, when the rest of the batters, what, was 64 for 8? Yeah, that for me is this time. I mean, Jacob, Bethel, Finnellan in the semi-final, the pressure. But two really good pitches. So I'm just going to choose Harry Brook. Best catch? Phillips. Axel Patel took two. There's always a Phillips catch. There's always a Phillips catch. And a drop catch in the semi-final.

1:00:18Harsha Bhogle: How on earth did he drop there?

1:00:19Michael Vaughan: Maybe he got there too quickly. I reckon he went for the mayo. He went for the super.

1:00:22Harsha Bhogle: Yeah, could be. What I remember this, though, is the number of catches that have been dropped. But yeah, the Akshay Patel catch to Harry Brook will go down in Indian cricket folklore like Kapil Dev's catch of Viv Richards in the 83 final.

1:00:37Michael Vaughan: This is a good one for you, Harsha. So we've covered the T20 World Cup. You've been around cricket, as I said before, for over 40 years. So you've got eight five-year blocks of your broadcasting career. Which has been your most favourite?

1:00:55Harsha Bhogle: 2001 to 2005 by a long margin. India coming out of all the match-fixing troubles. And I remember, I've told this story before, I remember getting an email from somebody saying, please tell me Sachin is not involved, if he is, what's left? And then we saw these outstanding individuals bring trust back. Rahul Dravid, VVS Lakshman, Saurav Ganguly, Sachin Tendulkar, Anil Kumble, great human beings, great people, very secure in who they were. Not once did a player in that generation come up to me and say, I didn't like what you said on air about me. You were invited to their weddings because you knew there was trust.

1:01:35Harsha Bhogle: And that was the period India started the turnaround of competing overseas. Through the 90s, India didn't compete overseas. Whereas in that generation, they started to compete overseas and laid the base for the next generation. It was so much fun, that whole, that generation. Is it hard to get trust these days? Yes, because of social media. Yeah. impossible to get because the players are social media entities themselves yeah

1:01:58Michael Vaughan: well it's that brand isn't it and they it's I mean the Asia Cup final there's a

1:02:04Harsha Bhogle: gentleman of the trophy waiting there and the Indian players are making reels

1:02:06Michael Vaughan: for Instagram yeah that's their share price value which is their individual brand goes up with the more following yes so it's very difficult to get trust

1:02:15Harsha Bhogle: anymore yeah also because each of the journalists is now being measured on likes on how many mentions so they're looking for anything that is salacious So it's very difficult to get trust. Yeah, I guess that's only ever going to get worse, isn't it?

1:02:29Michael Vaughan: It's not going to go back to the old days. I fear. I fear. And with the AI, there'll be a lot of fakes coming through as well. How do you do? I mean, in India, I come all the time, and I go and create buzz and chat, and then suddenly I wake up the morning after, and I look at some quotes that I've supposed... Some of the quotes are true, and obviously I'm not scared of saying... But then you suddenly read some quotes, and you go, No, I didn't say that. How do you deal with that? It's happened to me as well.

1:02:57Harsha Bhogle: You never get into a scrap with such people because that is their oxygen. They want a scrap. And then they go around in their colony saying, you know what, Michael Vaughan got back on me. I got after Michael Vaughan. And that is their wow thing. So you just never let... In social media, there's a ship passing by every 30 seconds. And their ship will pass too. Just let it be. put on a coat of skin on you every day and just let it be.

1:03:24Michael Vaughan: But it can't be easy for you. It happens to those in India more than in the UK or Australia or New Zealand.

1:03:31Harsha Bhogle: I miss reading my mentions on Twitter. But you can't anymore. Have you cleared that out? No, I just don't read it because a lot of it is falsehood. A lot of it is personal attacks. Twitter has become a very difficult medium to be on. You need it, but we've now got to a stage we've got to use social media the way you want to use it. I love the way you do it. You just start a fire and then you sit back and watch. I love that.

1:03:58Michael Vaughan: I love how you're able to do that. I get a few hours in Mumbai where I'm a little bit bored. It's a long day, so I try and just trigger a little bit of something. But it's very, very difficult, social media. Next Indian superstar, I think we've spoken about him. Way above. Yeah.

1:04:15Harsha Bhogle: His challenge will come not on the field, but off it. And do you worry that? Very much. About what? About the number of friends he'll suddenly discover he has, the number of relatives he'll discover he has, the people falling all over to give him money, to give him a sense of power. Give a man money, you'll discover how good he really is. Give a man power and you find out who he is. And in Indian cricket, we give money and power in abundance. I hope we don't lose him to money and fame.

1:04:45Michael Vaughan: That's a genuine risk.

1:04:46Harsha Bhogle: It is the biggest challenge. It'll be a bigger challenge for him than the challenge of an opposition bowler. We've lost Prithvi Shaw. I hope he comes back, young kid. I hope he comes back. But we lose players to fame. They're mega stars. And is it because they lose the hunger? It can happen. Of course it can happen. If the conversation's about solitaires, if the conversation's about private jets, I liken it a lot to English football. Great players, great players. they're earning what at one 300 400 500 000 pounds a week

1:05:21Michael Vaughan: that's not yeah you're gonna relax i feel the premiership yeah yeah he's fine uh last two um this is quite a political one will we see india versus pakistan in a test series again no never

1:05:42Harsha Bhogle: You never say never in our part of the world, but the emotions are very raw and very deep.

1:05:47Michael Vaughan: Even if Australia hosted the series or England hosted it, you still... The emotions are very raw and very deep. But even though they play each other in an ICC...

1:05:56Harsha Bhogle: Because you've got to play in ICC tournaments, yes.

1:05:59Michael Vaughan: But the ICC World Test Championship final is an ICC event, so... They'll play that, but they won't play bilateral. No? No.

1:06:06Harsha Bhogle: That's the one thing that I would love to see happen.

1:06:08Michael Vaughan: It is.

1:06:08Harsha Bhogle: And I think India should play it because the longer the game, India's got a better chance of winning.

1:06:14Michael Vaughan: I could just see a series in, you know, Lords, the Oval, Birmingham. Sellout everywhere. You play India versus Pakistan in Ulaanbaatar. It'll be a sellout. Harsh, brilliant for joining. I'm going to finish with one. I know I kind of primed you on it yesterday. I want you to, and you've been around the block, I want you to pick your greatest ever Test 11. People I've seen. People that you've seen, commentated on, home and away, not just India.

1:06:45Harsha Bhogle: Because otherwise you don't know how good Vinu Mankat was. You have no idea how good Vijay Merchant was. In a rain affected English summer he made 2 ,000 runs. You have no idea how good Vijay Hazare was, we only read about them. Even Bishan Bhedi and Prasanna, we've read about them rather than actually broadcast. I'll start 83 onward that the four spinners are gone. Yeah. Gavaskar. Gavaskar. Sunni Gavaskar. Virenda Sehwag. Sehwag? Sehwag was pushed. You know that there was a combination. That's a good combination. Yeah, Gavaskar and Sehwag. Ganguly told Sehwag, you're far too good not to be in my team.

1:07:19Harsha Bhogle: You're far too good. He said, but where are you going to get in? He said, Dravid 3, Tendulkar 4, Ganguly 5, Lakshman 6. How are you going to make the side? but you're far too good not to be in the side. 2002 in England, he goes and opens the batting in test cricket for the first time. So, Gawaskar Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Kohli.

1:07:39Michael Vaughan: Are you putting any overseas players in this? Oh, I thought you said Indian team. No, so far. We'll go India. India, go on. Kohli, five. Kohli, five. Yeah.

1:07:49Harsha Bhogle: Rishabh Pant, six. Rishabh, okay. Rishabh Pant, six. Everyone tells me what a great keeper, Kermani. He was lovely. He had such beautiful soft hands. I love Rishabh. But Dhoni or Rishabh? I think in white ball cricket, no comparison. In test match cricket.

1:08:04Michael Vaughan: So test cricket, we've got Rishabh. In white ball, you go Dhoni. Left hander, six.

1:08:09Harsha Bhogle: Kapil, they have seven. Kapil, seven. Good team, this. Anil Kumle, Ravi Chandran Ashwin is my two spinners. 1 ,200 wickets there. Eight and nine. Eight and nine. Both can bat. Both can bat. Ashwin and Kumle. Depends on where you're playing. If you're playing in India, I'm picking Jadeja.

1:08:25Michael Vaughan: Wow, you've got a good team.

1:08:26Harsha Bhogle: If you're playing in India, I'm picking Jadeja. Otherwise, I'm picking Bumrah and Zaheer Khan.

1:08:31Michael Vaughan: So you've got your left arm quick, Zaheer Khan, what a bowler he was. Yeah. Bumrah, the best. Kapal Dev, your all-rounder. Yeah. Ashwin and Kumli. It's a pretty good team. It's not a bad team. And if you were going to pick a World XI to play against that Indian side? There'd be so many. So just kind of off the top of your head, who are you going for? Would Jeffrey Boycott make that team? Didn't watch him.

1:08:54Harsha Bhogle: so he's not going to make it. Didn't watch Jeffrey. I benefited so much from working with Jeffrey in television though but because he was outspoken and I was always sharing the mic it was always HBGB for some reason on the rosters. So, Steve Smith, Joe Root. Yep. Three and four. Ricky Ponting. Five, yeah. Three, four, five. No, I can't make this team.

1:09:15Michael Vaughan: Yeah?

1:09:15Harsha Bhogle: I can't make this team. Hayden, those kind of players. How do you, that great Aussie sign. You just picked that three. Gilchrist? Gilchrist Hayden Hayden Gilchrist McGraw Anderson Warne Where did Sangakara come in?

1:09:29Michael Vaughan: Oh yeah

1:09:29Harsha Bhogle: Jaya Wardner Sangakara Lara Yeah Muralil I can't pick that side

1:09:35Michael Vaughan: You're the captain

1:09:36Harsha Bhogle: You're the pundit

1:09:37Michael Vaughan: I'll leave that to you I'll take that forward But I like your side Union side Harsha that's been Delighting It hasn't been too much chaos There's someone Open the door That's great I think we've got The show in the can We don't worry about Chaos in India Harsha thank you That's been great. I love your trainers. You're looking cool. There's a good young kid who works in that company. Aha, there you go. Here's to another 40 years of broadcast. Thank you. Cheers, Michael. That was wonderful.

1:10:46Harsha Bhogle: We'll see you next time. TheCoalition.com slash solutions. Paid for by The Coalition to empower our future. Pro athletes don't spend their time meal prepping. They eat smart, train hard, and recover fast. Factor makes it easy with dietician-designed, chef-prepared meals built to fuel your performance. Choose from high-protein, calorie-smart, GLP-1 support, and vegetarian options designed by nutrition experts to support strength and recovery. Train like a pro, eat like a pro. Right now, go to Factormeals.com slash Healthy50Off and use code Healthy50Off for 50 % off and free breakfast for a year.

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