Jonathan Agnew: ‘England’s Ashes Offended Me!’ & Stokes Interview Drama | Stick to Cricket EP 39

0:00Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. Hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show. Morning. Morning.

0:13Here he is. It's lovely. Oh, it's a bit heavy for me, that.

0:19Phil Tufnell: That is a... It is lovely. I sleep in it. I sleep in the back of it. It's a crap one, whatever it is. It picks up like a chair leg. Six foot mattress, duvet. There you go. Yeah. It's like the old Trinkwagon. Watch the match. Do you remember them? That's the next show. Yeah. The bench from... Shaggy. He was called the passion wagon. Who had a passion wagon? Passion wagon. The Zephyr, the old Ford Zephyr, had a bench from... Hey, Johnny, get on the end there. Ford Zephyr. Go on. Ford Zephyr and a Ford Zord. You're in there, mate. You're in there. Go on. And he had a bench from the seat. Have a croissant job.

0:57Phil Tufnell: Oh, call and change. Right. So you're driving like that. Tea or coffee, Harry, he'll get you a... Gear change? You've only got three gears. I'm all right, I'll stick with water. But it will... And a bench front seat. Yeah. Bloody hell. Is it sort of bright red or something? Is it? No, my passion work. I had a black-white car. It worked. Mine only worked with a nail file. It didn't have a key. Yes. Turned it on with a nail file. It turned it off. Underneath with the old wires. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember Paul Newman used to play for us? David Derbyshire, fast bowler. Yeah, the judge. Wasn't he called the judge?

1:28Yeah, he had one of those old Ford Escort things that literally everybody's car keys fitted. So he'd be out there bowling and he'd be just driving off and going, hide it somewhere. LAUGHTER So everyone's keys... An old Viva. He'd just started up and just go and hide it. I used to have one. I used to have a little old courtina. You used to start with a screwdriver. Yeah, boy courtina. A little screwdriver.

1:55Phil Tufnell: The wind the following the winders decide on the mind of their own

2:03What year was it when you had your first sponsored car first sponsor Langshire Creek that I've given you a sponsored car when you joke it

2:12Phil Tufnell: I had it when I would when I was captain the Rossendale company were lovely and they had BMWs and I got one, Captain's Choice and Martin Dobson who was captain at Burnley Football Club at the time and so he had one and we were dodging about in these but it was so embarrassing I had to give it back. You had your name on the side? No, it just had the Captain's Choice. I had my name on the side. I didn't like it. No, terrible. Everyone knew where you were. You've got a lot of lights. I know. You used to leave it around the back of the pub for a week. Up near where you live, York, and Ian Townsend, he's on the...

2:53I know him. I'm doing a board at York's County Critical. Well, he was having an event and we were staying at his house. I thought you were saying an affair then. I don't think he was. Anyways, having this, I can't remember, I think it was his daughter's 21st or something. Mix wine.

3:07Phil Tufnell: He's got a vineyard. Absolutely. Vineyard in York. Yeah, anyway, we go up, stay at his house, me and my mates, and I've got this, I think it was a Rover, 600 or something, with a name on the side. Oh, posh. Go to this party down the lanes at York. Come out at whatever, one o 'clock. One of the lads has not been having to, drives us back down the lanes and he was pissing it down. Went to turn left. He's gone straight, straight into a field. Stuck in a field with my name. Oh, no. No, you don't want that. 309 we had. I think my first one. Peugeot? Peugeot 309. With toughers on the side. That would have been...

3:45Oh, blimey, that would have been 88.

3:49Phil Tufnell: We had Larders, do you remember them? Larders! They didn't have power steering either. The old Russian... Would you have had a sponsored car now? Never, well... You did, you had, I think you had... Did you have an orange or a lime green Escort? Focus, I had a bright orange one. Sponsored? Boy Racer! Oh, that's a good one. It's a good car. In England we had some of the greatest deals. I was there a Jaguar, didn't I? That was unbelievable. And also the lovely lady who looked after us, you could just ring her up and just say, can I have... We had tour rags as well, you know. Tour rags. You'd have had one of those, wouldn't you, from England?

4:26No. What's a tour rag? Oh, yeah, a big Jeep, yeah. What was your first one? We only had one sponsored car, a Fiat Tipo. Her name was all up the side. Fiat Tipo? Two people with kit in them. Yeah, you... Bats hanging out the windows. Oh, shocking. They're tiny little things. I thought, what am I doing? Never had name. I remember driving to watch an Essex pre-season game. Peter Suchtrove passed with his name on. All I wanted was a car with my name on the side. You were growing up at 11, 12. If I could play for Essex, I had my name on the side. They also got their own parking spots at Essex. That's all I wanted.

5:05Suddenly realised that would be the worst thing ever. I had a terrible record with my cars. Crash them. Little dings. Little not crashes first one. I remember getting one from a guy in Sheffield a Volvo. It was a C70 It was nice. Yeah, and I went to this gym first afternoon and do you know those little walls? Well, no, I have the old Took the wall down that was day one. Yeah, my first everyone was from Yorkshire was a golf from a From Pete Gilder in Sheffield GTI. Yeah, that got crashed a two It lasted a day with that one. No, it wasn't a GTX. Was it an L or something? No, I don't know what it was.

5:45It was 1.2, whatever.

5:48Phil Tufnell: Going all the way to Sussex in all. Remember Chappie, Glen Chappell? He's turned up and for some reason he's in one of them Cinque Trentos. Cinque Trentos. Cinque Trentos. Cinque Trentos. Volkswagen, Volkswagen. No, it's a Fiat thing, isn't it? Yeah, or a seat. So you've got some fluff on your chin. Cinquecento. It was just like a box on wheels. So we got this piece of plastic and a piece of cardboard and stuck it on the side. Glenchapel, drive Cinquecento. And he didn't know it was on. Drive it like you stole it. Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. So just hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode.

6:35Enjoy the show.

6:41I jumped in an Australian taxi and all I said to this driver was MCG. He looked at me and said, well, Mike, you're Agus, aren't you? I said, well, yes. You're much less handsome in his sound on the radio. He went at me saying, like, who does he think he is? He's arrogant. He's this and this, right? Oh, he did. And, like, properly, like, he didn't just nail my cricket. He nailed me. He's quite gullible in a way. You know if you press that point, you know you're going to get a reaction out of the boys. But what about this winter? I was so... You were angry at the time, weren't you? I was angry about it.

7:11I was kind of offended as well by the attitude towards hard work and preparation. Did we fall out? I think you reminded me once that I'd never played for England before. You said, come on, Fred, what's the answer? Where are all the quick moles? And he goes, I just don't know. If I knew you'd the answer, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you.

7:39I guess thanks for coming on. Yes, I've been told to say that this is, and we've all worked for the BBC, Dave, back in the day, which is my special. My start, I've cut my teeth and bump. And I've been told to say that this is exactly like the BBC, but you can swear. Well, OK, well, that sounds...

7:57Phil Tufnell: I don't think he will, you know. I don't think... No, he will. He's as bad as us. I don't think he'll be all bad as a professional, John. Well, you try and maintain standards, Michael. I'm sorry, Vobbsy slipped a bit. I didn't realise that you were born in Macclesfield, weren't you? I was. On a farm? My dad was a farmer, yeah. So you were a cooking brigade, yeah? Yeah. What sort of farmer? No, I was a proper farmer. I was a proper farming farmer. We didn't marry into a farm. Right. We were family farmers. Generations. So, mobbly round here. Yeah. What did you farm? He was dairy, to start with.

8:30He got fed up with the hours, I think, and so he moved across to Lincolnshire. He was a poultry farmer, so... Ooh. Turkeys, guinea fowl, chickens. Don't have to milk chickens. Geese, no, you don't. Guinea fowl was security. We can have a go. Without realising it, he was a very early farm shop. Oh, was he? People would come along and they'd buy their turkeys. I'll tell you, they'd be on trailers and word got out. When I started at Leicestershire, word got out. This is what my dad did. So if you go, I think it must have been, yeah, he was playing for Derbyshire at the time. First got wind of this.

9:03who do you think made the first bid for a free turkey?

9:06Phil Tufnell: David Steele. Correct. What's passed in the last of the year? 1976. That's right. Every year, my dad was such a nice bloke, he could never say no. Steele, he would just turn up in his car, unload a nice 26-pounder, and off he'd go for Christmas. He was like the first Bernard Matthews. Well, he was a smaller version. He was a farm shop. A bloke who I have a drink with every now and again, who went to school with you, You went to Uppingham School, didn't you? Yes. Do you remember Richard Buffy? Do you remember Buffy? No. You must do. You're all lucky, Mum. Don't you find this, though? So many people think I was at school with you.

9:46But actually, they weren't.

9:47Phil Tufnell: He tells me he's a lovely, lovely bloke. He was at school with Agus, and he's a poultry farmer. He's got 2 ,500. And he's a poultry farmer near us. Well, I wish I knew him. I'd never heard of him. Look him up on school pictures. Buffy. Buffy. What did he bowl? Buffet? No, no. We used to come back from school to pluck these wretched turkeys for days on end. It was a hell of a job. Anyway, so, yeah, I'm a local. That's why, you know, Lancashire were my team. But why? Bumble was one of my heroes. Why Leicestershire? Yeah, OK, so I got into cricket through watching him. Peter Lieber. Peter Lieber was my hero.

10:25Right, yes. So, Lancashire-Kent, Gillette Cup final, 1971. 11 years old, birthday present. I'm there at Lords. He's playing. Bondi was captain. Great game of cricket against Kent. Bondi's a wonderful catch. Assy Vic Bell. Assy Vic Bell. And Peter Lever was bowling for the nursery. And I'd never seen anything like it. You know, he's a good-looking guy, wasn't he? Yeah, hair, floor. Fair hair, running in, ball fast. And I said to my dad, that's who I want to be, I want to be Peter Lever. And Dad said, yeah, right, you know. And then I went for coaching at Alf Govers. Yes, yes, I've been there. There you go.

10:55So Alf got me into professional cricket. So at 16, I was a professional cricketer at Surrey. I didn't like Surrey very much, I'm a country boy so that's why I went up to Leicestershire and he my first match I'm playing my heroes, Lancashire 18 years old, just left school there they all were, Peter had retired him I opened the bowling it took a long time to get him out but he was my first victim first class victim I mean First ball No it was It was fourth ball Fourth ball What LB

11:34Phil Tufnell: No ball Was it LB or ball Ball He stomped Out the ground Big swinger I mean an absolute banana Coming down Yeah Fourth ball Medium pace No he was quick then He was shot Was he Yeah I'll tell you a story Bullhead must have been playing Bullhead were playing I think Higgy would have been playing Higgy Higgy would have been playing Talking about massaging an ego I'm coming here again. It's a two-day test in Melbourne. We're all quite happy. Day three, we're down the riverbank, aren't we? Down in Melbourne. Lovely... Southbank. Southbank, what was it called, that place? On the boat, on the boat. Yeah.

12:15On the boat. So, anyway, I think I had some friends coming over from Moslem Creek Club and one of the family members comes and starts speaking to me and John. He said, well, Agus was quick, rapid, broke my arm. Really? All in a day's work. You were lucky, Cookie. You came a little bit too late.

12:34Phil Tufnell: I mean, he was quite nasty on the feet. He was very vocal on the feet. He was chirping away like a good one. Until it came to batting. Until it came to batting. And then snuck it up. He was angry. And him, Bullhead, what were you called Bullhead? Gordon Parsons. Oh, I played against him. I played against him. He'd chirp away. He married Hansy Cronier's sister. That's it? That's right. Iggy used it. I mean, you got battered from an inch. Oh, Iggy. Iggy was piling in all the time. Ken Higgs was a lovely man. Yeah. He was our coach and he could be angry and he could, but he was the softest heart, you know.

13:11He was such a nice man. He got Pfeiffer because we all got injured. When he was 46. He's in his 50s. Yeah. He's over 50. He has to play because all us young ones are injured. He comes on up from the pavilion end at Grace Road off about three paces, got Pfeiffer. Guess who the umpire was? His mate.

13:30Phil Tufnell: Ray, Ray, do you? Oh, Ray. Just a couple of LBWs in there. He was. He might have helped Higgy out a bit. Higgy never had a shower. He liked him all 20-odd overs all day, but in his vest and underpants, go and have a swill. See you tomorrow. Catch the train. Catch the train from Piccadilly back down to Kidsgrove. He's a good bowler. Very good. Did he just do slits and pits? Just slits and pits. No. LAUGHTER Just a wipe. Just a wipe. There wasn't spray in those days, was there? No. No, roll-ons. No. A little bit of coal tar. A bit of coal tar. In that era, it was string vests. No, Mike made a string.

14:15Phil Tufnell: It was. That final that you went to when you were 11, did Lanks win? Yes. And were you on the pitch? Because the great pictures, aren't they, from the finals? When all the fans used to get on the pitch. Were you on the pitch at the end? No, because I was up on the first floor of the grandstand. But I'll tell you what happened. So when I played my first Test match, 1984, they're still running on the pitch then. So I'm the last man batting, go out there against the West Indies, the blackwash test, and pass Richard Ellison, who was a non-striker, and Joel Garner's saying to him, when it's all over, I want one of those wickets.

14:55the stumps and Richard, I mean, a normal person would have said, yes, Joel, no problem at all. I mean, we're nine down, it's all over. He was called Bungalow for a reason. He said, we've got to get me out first. I looked at him thinking... Went up to the far end, Oxall End, and stood there at the non-striker. Joel's eyes had gone ding, ding, and he ran in and rolled this thing and Richard fends it off into gully. It's all over. Now, yeah, I hadn't realised what happens at the end of a game. I played at Grace Road. We didn't have a crowd. So I'm there at the non-striker zone thinking, oh, I'm still, hey, nothing's broken.

15:32I'm all right. You know, Marshall's holding. OK, and next thing is I'm just surrounded by all these Rastafarians that are jumping about, they're all over the place, and they stole all my kit. I'm just wandering around, and I got to the dressing room, the steward, nobody thought I was a streaker. I walked in there like this. What, they nicked my pants? Helmet, gloves, bass. It took a lot. What, your shirt, everything? Well, I can't get my shirt, but they got all my kit. And they found it dumped down the Harleyford Road. They didn't even want to keep it. Not having that. That's not a good sign, is it?

16:04Not having that. Knocked your bat off. So, no, it does look funny looking at those invasions now, doesn't it? And the way the players ran off swinging bats. Yeah. Well, there was... When was it that Geoffrey had a little bit of a ding-dong coming off a field?

16:18Phil Tufnell: They used to be great. He had a bit of a... Didn't he have a ding-dong? Someone stole his hat at his cat. Oh, yes, that's right. He got that back. I think he had a ding-dong. There was no hanging around, was there? No. You nicked it, you weren't waiting for your master's decision. You were like, oh, wait. They were just... Well, the World Cup final of Australia... Nobody ever got injured. Well, but there was potential. Oh, give up. Well, really. Elf and safety. Elf and safety. Elf and safety. Yeah. They might have been. They were brilliant. You would have been on the pitch for a lot of them. I was.

16:48Number 11. To take a young lad to that, 11 years old, to see that and the atmosphere and Lords and it's a shame the finals today aren't like that anymore.

16:55Phil Tufnell: Well tell Cookie 68-69 so John play a league so we won that 68-69. Were you playing that? I was so well. What do you mean? 70-71-72 three finals so that five of you just kept winning. They were a great size. Lancashire won those guys. And then I took over as captain we lost the first one won the second one lost the third one. So we'd another three which we'd lost to 1-1. Why was that Bumble? Why were you sort of a one-day side? Because they say that about England, are they concentrating too much on Test Match cricket? No, we had two things, it was raining a lot, uncovered pitches you'd lose a lot.

17:40Phil Tufnell: And Test Goals, you got loads of Test Goals, you didn't have big staffs, so your Test players were producing Test Also, they're good all-rounders. You had a lot of all-rounders at Lancashire. Hughes, Wood, Tesco's. You said Tesco's. I was like... Tesco's, did you say? Tesco's. Tesco's, not Tesco. I can't remember. Some of your players worked at Tesco. I was going to say. So the main reason we won all the one-day competitions was because it was all-rounders. It was a great sign. Isn't that easy? Engine room. Farouk Engineer Jack Simmons David Hughes Engine Room And finish it off Did you win the championship?

18:23No No Well that's what I mean We weren't going to win the championship Why weren't you going to win the championship? I mean all the time Oh right You don't get points to win So that's why you were good at one day cricket Yeah You know what you used to win

18:33Phil Tufnell: Yeah which is just over the pen It's on the east side Is it? Did you Did you When it rained Did you not get any points When it rained? Back in the day I don't know As in I Oh, no, you rained off. What, a draw? Don't forget, three days. You had... In fact, this probably won't make the edit, but down at Essex, you had a great captain, Keith Fletcher. Fantastic captain. And he would always say to all the boys, and they were an eccentric, great, fun side at Essex, we can't get points in here. We can't get points sat in the dressing room. We've got to get out. If it's unfit, you try and get out, try and do it.

19:10Phil Tufnell: Three-day games. and so you were constantly, if it had rained, you're setting the game up. You're sort of negotiating between the two and then one of your players came out and said, we were match-fixing. That's Don Topper. So it wasn't match-fixing, you were ensuring that you were going to have a game of cricket. So you're basically saying Essex won because they... Fix match-fix. What did Gucci say about that when he first took over? He said playing cricket in England is, you know, like the professionals are the only professionals who don't actually want to go and play cricket. They don't want to be in the dressing room playing cards.

19:52Phil Tufnell: We got in trouble at Lanks because it used to rain a fair bit. In uncovered pitches, you'd just have days raining. And we used to run off smiling. The committee came in and said, would you not keep running off smiling when you're pregnant? He said, hello. Well, Lord. He used to go down Willie Thorne's snooker hall. Oh, yeah. It rained at Leicester. There they go. Straight down there. Yeah, Willie always let us in for nothing. Yeah. And also, when there was a puddle in the outfield, that was it, wasn't it? You're done. Done for the day. Puddle in the outfield. Lovely. I don't forget, we would actually play in unfit conditions.

20:23Phil Tufnell: Definitely. Without a shadow of a doubt, because they'd just show a lot of a sword us down and get on with it and play. Don't forget, Sunday League, if it was deemed unfit and you're not going to play, you'd scrap that and play a 10-over game. Start again. T10. Play a 10-over. Play a 10-over. It was sliding all over the place. The crowd loved it. And we loved it as players. Nobody got injured. Wow. Nobody got injured. You've got to be careful. You've got to be careful. Oh, give. We used to do that. We'd go out there at Lord's because it didn't have that drainage, did it? No. When I first started playing.

20:57No. It would rain in the night or something. And then it would be cracking the flags the next morning. It would be called off. Yes. be called off, up to 78 degrees, not a cloud in the sky, we're all down the pub, or down Willy Halls, playing snooker. Willy Hall. Willy Halls Hall. Willy Halls Hall. Yeah, it was amazing. The crowd would be going mental, going, get out there, get out there. And we'd go out there going, oh, no, well, we might pull a fetlock up mid-on. That's sick, I know. Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair.

21:35Can we ask John some questions? Yeah, sure, John. I'm enjoying the band. Agus, what was your recollection now, playing for Leicester in those early days, you get Bumble out fourth ball. Yeah. If you could kind of just tell us about what it was like being a young person in a county dressing room back in what year we talked to. Who was the captain? Ray Illingworth was captain. Oh, Ray. And that was quite something, because Illing was England captain when I was kind of, at that time, 12, 13, 14. I'll be watching him on the black and white, captain of England, and the next thing, he's my captain. Literally, I left school and there was an injury crisis and I was literally just straight from school in the first team.

22:15So I didn't know anybody, really. First, Colin Croft was bowling for you. These little pads, straight from school, little spiky gloves. A green spiky glove? And you've got Colin Croft roaring in down the hill at Grace Road. There's anything like it. Well, thank God I never got in. A hundred overs, compulsory declaration. Yes. So that was pretty scary. A bit about Gower. And Gower's clever because he always used to wind Illy up. He used to come in late. He'd come in with a full DJ and everything else on, and Illy would just kind of shake his head. What, DJ from the night before? Yeah. But he didn't really, but he put it on because Illy would think it was.

22:54He used to play out with Illy. But Illy was, I mean, Illy for me was Mr Cricket. Really? Absolutely. He just kind of really had cricket in his bones. Yeah. And I know lots of people have cricket in their bones, but Illy was just kind of, he really did get cricket. And he was brilliant in three-day games, engineering the last day of keeping a batting team interested and buying a wicket and all that sort of stuff and then getting back in the game. He was, I thought Illy was great. And I think it was a shame when he got the England job that he got it too late, really, because too much of a gap, too much of an age gap between him and Atherton captain, you know, that was never really going to work.

23:28Which is a shame because it would have gone. But Gower was... And he had to deal with him. Was he your first coach? No. Fletch. Mickey. But he came in... I can still remember really turning up to the Christmas thing, dressed as Emperor Ming. Emperor Ming. And he just looked like Emperor Ming. Like Christmas Day in Australia. Yeah, yeah. Was he a good... They say he was an excellent captain. Raymond? Yeah. Well, I mean, I only played a few games under him. Oh, right, OK. But he was just, for me, he was like a massive hero. I mean, then we got through a couple and then Gower became captain and that was a bit of a different experience.

24:13I mean, to be fair to David, he was England captain as well for much of it. And you had no coach. There was no coach or anything. The captain ran the whole thing. And so he would come back knackered from a test match. But we might be playing at Cardiff on the Wednesday and the test match had been at Headingley and David would be there doing a daily telegraph crossword. David, how'd it go? All right, you know, a bit sleepy. And then the trouble with David was that you knew that he actually didn't pay much attention to events at Grace Road while the test match was on. And so he'd just come back and just pick 11 players and that would be it.

24:44So he had to sort of drop in the fact, did you see my FIFA last week, David? 12 down. At one match, we went out, we were playing Surrey and we went out and my silly superstition was to be second onto the field behind the captain. So David go first, I'll be next over the rope. I don't know why. Anyway, he's... Oh, hello, Jonathan. Bow the first over. I said, yeah, cheers, David. We'd lost the toss. I said, yeah, OK. And he said, set your own field. And he potted off to second slip and he stood there. So I'm like, OK, so we've gone one, two, three slips. Gully, cover mid-off, mid-on, short leg, fine leg.

25:18Third man, hang on, one, two, three. David, we've got 12 people out here. LAUGHTER He hadn't bothered telling anybody who was 12th man. So poor old Les Taylor was deft, don't they, Les? He was at the far end of the ground. Les!

25:33Phil Tufnell: You drop!

25:37It was fun. David, I'm batting with David. And I always like to tell this little bit of a story because you've got some great bats around this table, haven't we, Toph? Yes. And I'm afraid we're not amongst them. However, it's that thing about time, the extra time that makes a really good bat something special, isn't it? And David had that bit of extra time. He'd make 90 miles an hour bowling look relatively easy. I batted with him in 15 years only once, because I'd survived as night watchman somehow the night before. And so next day, over the boundary rope, PA announcement at Greythrope, resuming their innings for Leicestershire, David Gower and Jonathan Agnew.

26:15OK, you know, it feels pretty good, doesn't it? Got halfway out, and the full horror of the situation actually struck. Because in those days, I didn't really care if I was going to bowl out next day. Viv Richards or Gordon Greenwich or whatever it was who I was batting against because I was a coward and we were playing Hampshire and I saw him Marshall Roberts Malcolm Marshall so I went straight he was a lovely bloke Malcolm he was a lovely guy he always said sorry to me when he hit me but anyway he's bowling and Marshall would bowl these thunderbolts he was very competitive wasn't he Yeah, very.

26:55And Gower would just get on the front foot, boom, and play the ball to mid off. And then he'd wink and smile at Malcolm, say, well, Bold. I'd say, what? How can you do that? And then, you know, short ball, vroom, just sway out of the way, a little smile again. Anything wide, bang, four. It was the most incredible ten minutes I ever had at the crease. And when I walked off, I said to myself, never forget it, because you have experienced something there. You know, a little window opened into two at the very best, playing at their very best. You know, it was fantastic. and that was just a little of insight into someone who was really very special and it was great to be able to sit and play for Leicestershire, you've got to watch Garback for nothing.

27:35Terrible lances.

27:36Phil Tufnell: Illy as captain. Terrible lances. So he'd gone from Yorkshire down to Leicestershire and so they were quite a modest club, Leicestershire. Modest? So Illy, they only had these changing rooms and might have had two baths but certainly had one bath. He took the bath taps off, Billy. Took the bath taps off so that nobody could have a bath until he got it. And put the bath tap back on. He was canning. He was canning. There was one bath and things were so bad that Les and I used to have to share it together. Oh, no. No way. You know, drinks after the game, Old Trafford. And a pot. Some 12th man will go round.

28:16Phil Tufnell: Bitter or lager. Lager, bitter, this, that, the other. Down there, they just put a crate of brown ale. So everybody was right, wait till they come up at that. Bottle top, a crate of brown ale. Every day? That's right, with your drink, you didn't get a choice. Right. An old boy Godurny would bring up a crate, leave them there, and that would be it. You had some great barricas, didn't you? Do you remember him? Come on, Lester. Yeah, the old boy Chris. Come on, Lester, Chris. Come on, Lester. You could hear him from outside the ground. I'm on my way, lads. He's outside the ground, shouting. I'm on my way, come on, Lester.

28:51Phil Tufnell: I tell you, I'll tell you, at brandy time there. brandy who's brandy i don't know he was after me i think he used to have a lewis i'll tell you who wouldn't have had a bath kenny see you tomorrow kid

29:10oh great yeah they were happy days yeah and were the days you know we we talk about the bit of drinking in the you know i guess now there's been a story or two rates and the drinking culture watching back in the county or in cricket. Back in the 80s and early 90s, it was like that. I always have this conversation with Stuart Broad about this. He basically says, you lot, you were down at the pub. Yes, we did go down at the pub. Talking cricket. I didn't drink in those days. I mean, if I had anything, it was a brown ale because that's all I was. But I would sit there at the pub and I would listen to Richard Hadley, Malcolm Marshall, wherever it was.

29:48You'd just sit there. You'd start when you were younger. It's on the fringe of the conversation, you know, with your Coke.

29:53Phil Tufnell: Definitely. And then as you got more experience, you'd move in a bit and there'd be another youngster there wanting to talk to you. It was how he learned about cricket. It wasn't boozing. Darren Lehmann's famous saying at Yorkshire, he says you learn the game in the bar. Yeah, well, I think a lot of that is true. And someone like, I mean, Hadley, I always got on really well with. I know sometimes people fell out with Richard, but I always got on really well with Richard Hadley. And that was largest by sitting there at the bar and listening to him talk about bowling. And he was outstanding at that.

30:23It's a great excuse for a day. Is that why you spent so much time in the bar? I was learning. I'm not sure he was on the car.

30:29Phil Tufnell: But if you went to Lourdes, both teams would go into the tavern. Go into the tavern. What was your problem? After a big final, whatever. Cricketers. Cricketers, that's it. At the end of the ground, going to there. Orange tree. Orange tree. We used to go round the corner. Sorry, that's right. Pringle and Pringle. That's right. Round the corner. Bat and Ball at Canterbury. Button ball, which is not a pub now, on St Lawrence. Three O'shoes. Old Over O'shoes at Headingley. Three O'shoes. The oak. Original oak. Three O'shoes. You'd just go up and chat. You always used to have a chat with the OPPO, didn't you?

31:06Exactly. The OPPO would be there. And any nonsense that happened on the field, you'd just kind of get rid of it. You'd say, come on, sort yourselves out. That'd be the end of it. The benefit do's, you'd go along and support the opposite. I went to Wayne Daniels' benefit do one time. I was due to bat next day. And he had a benefit due. And the raffle tickets came round. And I made sure he saw me put£5 in and take out my raffle tickets. I said, put them away. He said, all right, Wayne. Next day, whoo, it's going to fly. It didn't make any difference at all. I put five quid in his blooming benefits.

31:39There was a great game. I played in a game. Go on. Well, Peter Willey was a tough man, wasn't he? He was. Yeah, a great man as well. When David was away, Peter Willey was captain. And he decided we were going to get in first against Wayne Daniel. Had enough of this. He said, we're going to get in first. The moment he comes out of the bat, first ball, whoever's bowling, bouncer, get it up him. So I was like, yeah, quite right. Well, two right. Get into him. So anyway, the day comes and I get a wicket and out comes Wayne Daniel. So I'm thinking, right, hang on a minute. Let's hope they've all forgotten about this.

32:16I'm not going to bowl a bouncer at Wayne Daniel, first ball. No. So Wayne comes in, takes Gardner at the end of the run, at the Bivillian end at Lord's, and just about to run in and Willie says, come on, remember what we said, bounce him. So you've got a choice. You're either going to get killed by Wayne Daniel because you bounced him first ball, or your teammates will just simply know you are a coward. So I ran in and bowl this ball at Wayne and it was a sort of a long hoppy, sort of a gentle bouncer. So I said, well, there you go. But it was going to be what was coming. And he did like a helicopter pirouette swipe.

32:50I was flying in the game. And the ball went straight into the score box in the grandstand over a point for six. The score was like... It went straight in over a point for six into the score box. And there was sort of silence. And I got him out next fall because he had another swipe. And everyone says, yeah, quite right. That showed him, that showed him. and then you heard the sound of the bat being flung across the dressing room in the pavilion. He was furious. And he ran in like a mad thing for four days. Sunday League as well, he still ran in like a main thing. Oh, it's horrible. It's a stupid decision.

33:27Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. At what age did you think, do you know what, I want to go into broadcast? Well, it happened purely by accident because back in our day, and I think it's a great thing that players have 12-month contracts. They'll be a six-month contract. So come September, you've got your P60, if you're lucky, or your P45, if you weren't, and a reporting back date, April 4th or something. And then see you then. Good luck. So there was no work, no jobs. You had a mortgage or whatever. So I drove a lorry for a couple of winters, delivering asbestos. Just slightly regret now, if I'm honest.

34:06You're going to take a lorry test. No, it was a seven and a half tonner. I was more worried about the asbestos. Made windows in a window factory, knocked them together. I mean, anything, anything. And then one year, it was, I'll tell you what it was, it was when was Gat's tour of Australia's ashes? 86. Right, so it was 86. John Rawling came out to me from his Radio Leicester. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Terrific commentator, boxing aesthetics. Yeah, brilliant. He worked at Radio Leicester. He said, what are you doing for Swinterrest? I don't know. He said, well, come and work with us. Give it a go. Think you'll like it.

34:36I think you'll enjoy it. And so I did. Did the morning shows. And, of course, John, they went on to London. And next thing you're up. You know, I just loved radio. So they just threw you on to broadcast straight away?

34:46Phil Tufnell: Yeah. Yeah, radio. Put you straight on them. Local radio. It's me on Radio Leicester. Yeah, yeah. Local radio. What, ball by ball? No, just doing breakfast shows and Saturday afternoon shows. In those days, I mean, you're too young to remember this, Alistair. You had things called discs, records. Oh, right. Yes, yes. Which were complicated because you played them at different speeds. You know, it was 33 and a third. 78. So 78 is a real for all. there were 45s. Now, when you're disc jockeying in those days and you're not very good at your learnings... You're ramming in a record and it comes in at the wrong speed.

35:18You quickly crank the speed up. I thought you were doing a flower report. No, I was the bloke in the studio. So when it came to getting advertising for this job, the BBC job, I'd done a bit of newspaper, worked for the Today newspaper, which is a tabloid, which is quite good to have done a bit of that. Yes. Writing. But I didn't tell them otherwise, that I wasn't the bloke there with the stopwatch and the reporter and the commentator. I was the bloke in the studio playing records at the wrong speed and asking what the score was of the reporter. So they assumed that I did. So my first day on the job, Peter Baxter gave me a stopwatch, a silver stopwatch with a hand.

35:54Yes. At Lords, Champions County against whoever it was, MCC. And I wrote, I thought, shit, 45 seconds for the 11 o 'clock desk or whatever. So I wrote every word and timed it. Yeah, timed it. So then the third over, boom, boom, boom. Anyway, so live, our correspondent, Jonathan Agnew, click, started reading it and a wicket fell out in the middle. Boom, cheers. And I looked up and completely lost where I was at this piece, which is now worthless. And I never scripted another report. So it's good that I got it wrong the very first time. So now you just click the watch and it's the kind of thing they get used to doing, isn't it, to talk for 45 seconds or a minute or whatever it may be.

36:37Phil Tufnell: What year was your debut on? 91. New Zealand. You were there. I was there. There's about 15 of you. That was that winter. I interviewed him. So I worked with you in 91. Yes. We go on tour to New Zealand. First test match at Christchurch. T on the last day. England need eight or nine wickets to win. I mean, it's a draw. Nailed on draw. He comes on, bowls them out. It's incredible. So I'm in the commentary box, phone rings, and there's posh voice, woman's voice from London. Hello, is that Jonathan Agnew? I said, yes. He said, would you mind awfully interviewing Phil Tufnell for the Today programme?

37:16I said, well, certainly. So I put the phone down, got my kit organised, went outside, thought, where am I going to find Phil Tufnell? I'd heard a few stories. So I thought, well, I won't bother going in the dressing room. So I went round the back. There were some trees there, and he's up against a tree. And with a fag on. So I went up and I said, Philip, I'm Jonathan Agnew from the BBC. Can I interview you possibly? Yeah, mate. I said, right, OK. So I got my kit out, headphones on, microphone, crank this handle up and about... Wait 20 seconds. Sorry, do what, sorry? Crank this handle. Wait 20 seconds and this woman's voice again, hello, London.

37:53I said, look, it's Jonathan Agnew here in Christchurch. I've got Phil Tufnell with me. Oh, marvellous. Hang on a moment. Let's put you through to the studio. John Humphreys will queue you up. Well, this is my first match away, John Humphreys. So anyway, John Humphreys, I can hear him in the headphones, well, what a performance that was by England. First test in Christchurch, they've won the game, and I think our correspondent, Jonathan Agnew, is with England's hero, Phil Tufnell. And I said, well, yes, John, I am, I'm here. And, Philip, what on earth happened there? Those New Zealand batsmen had no idea how to play you.

38:25I put the microphone on. No, mate.

38:33They were shitting themselves.

38:40Thank you, Philip, and back to you. That's my first meeting with him. Fantastic. Agus, you've got to tell me, when it rains in the summer, I always go back to YouTube and when you were stitched up on Test Match Special. How were they? Because you were there.

38:58Phil Tufnell: How did that come about? Fred and Jack Bannister. I'd done John as the previous game. I'd stitched him up. And I've showed off a bit about it. I'll be honest. And I sort of, you know, went to the TV box, Benno and Lewis and said, oh, I've stitched the city all sod up. You know, ha, ha, ha. Well, between tests, I did a piece for TV. It was 1993, so it was the Women's World Cup final. And I did a piece on women's cricket for Grandstand. So we get to Edgebast and the scene of the next test match. And Keith McKenzie comes in, who's boss TV, wasn't he? Quite a scary person. I said, Jonathan, that was a very fine piece you did for Grandstand.

39:35Could we possibly borrow you again today for tea time, for a feature? I said, well, certainly, Keith. You know, I think it's not a career move. So he said, yes, it'll be upstairs live. Not quite sure who the guests will be. There'll be something to do about the future of fast polling. So I said, yeah, terrific. So tea time comes up. I'm getting sat down. Jack Bannister arrives and Fred, Fred, true. No, this big massive cigar. That was it. His shirt hanging out. And Jack had this earpiece in and I had a huge thing like this. And all I had was this... I'm trying to... I mean, I thought we were live.

40:08Here we are, what's the future of fast bowling in England, Fred? And I had Keith shouting in my ear for ten minutes and Jack was brilliant because Jack would then stop talking himself and I hadn't had a clue what he'd said because I hadn't heard him because all I got was Keith yelling and shouting. I had Fred talking about wallpaper, salmon fishing.

40:28Phil Tufnell: Steve the floor manager Oh he was Come in on Ten Nine Eight Five Four He got this big powder puff He went There you go And eat him with his powder Three Two One Oh well But you think you're live You can't You can't stop Can you I mean I thought This is horrendous He's shouting and yelling French So at the end I thought Bloody hell Anyway This voice comes into my ear I think the long nose veteran broadcasters got his revenge. I was just kind of dripping in space. It was a great set-up. No, and she questioned to Fred, it's about... You said, come on, Fred, what's the answer? Where are all the quick moments?

41:07I don't know. I just don't know. Didn't he go, if I know, I wouldn't be sitting here? If I knew the answer, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you.

41:15Phil Tufnell: So what about you, Jack? Well, I agree with Fred. It was a very brilliant one and it was done perfectly. Something you'd know if it wasn't. It wasn't right. And it's a nice thing to say about Johnners, because all those people, they gave up their tea break for Brian to get his revenge. So all the people in the truck, the people that were filming, I mean, it was, yeah, it was class. We used to send faxes, we used to send faxes, me and him. You from the boundary. And just send them through. And they'd come through in the commentary box. They had no idea what fax machines were. Brian Johnston, Henry Blofeld.

41:51Or was not a clue. No idea what a laptop was. An asking question. Or a fax. So we'd get in the back and we'd just knock out a bit of a... Yeah. Knock out a letter.

42:00Phil Tufnell: A letter, yeah. So send it... Yeah. And then read it out. So Fred, the previous week, had said, I'm sorry, cricket is a sideways game. Played sideways, your ball sideways and your bat sideways. So this is an interesting, very interesting conversation with Fred and he's sideways. I've taken this on board. I'm a wicketkeeper and I'm standing sideways. It's not working because the ball keeps hitting me in my ear. No, I didn't mean wicked kicking. I remember Blofeld, so I knocked out a letter from Jones's Carpets, Bradford. Dear Mr Blofeld, this is literally the back of the box on a laptop. And it always helps.

42:47Don't you mean tight right now? We think you're... No, it was a very early laptop. We think you're the best commentator in the world, always guaranteed to be read out. if you mention us working hard here at Jones' Carpets or where they were we'll give you a free carpet boom yours sincerely so tear it off the fax machine slip it in oh my dear old thing well hello everyone at Jones' Carpets marvellous I'm sure you're all working terribly hard he got off folded up and put it in his pocket thinks he's going to get a free carpet so Smith's Carpets Bradford to the producer put it in front of Henry we've just heard Brofelt give our main competitor the most appalling plug unless you apologise I'll report him to the director general.

43:27I was like, oh, my dear old thing. Obviously, there's some very fine carpet manufacturers in... LAUGHTER You get away with murder.

43:38Phil Tufnell: What about Birmingham when the casual cricket tour were down in Cornwall and Devon, but the scorer who was sat in the Ray Bank stand, as it was, not the Eric Olley stand, it's Ray Bank stand, he's got the balls. and we can't play on our casual tour which we've all taken time off work because the scorer is up at watching the Test match he's wanting a day at the Test match and he's got the cricket balls and if you could read this out he'll be sat, he's quite a shy chap he'll be sat on his own and he's called Ted and so if you just mentioned that he's sat there could we get the balls? and he put it out to blow us I know you're in there, shy Ted LAUGHTER Oh, no, there was...

44:26We had... I used to send letters to Johners from either Biggan, Hugh Jaffe... We'd be coming in and I'd just send them in. Go through the card.

44:35Phil Tufnell: He'd read them out. Oh, well... I know, it's hilarious. There was one... We did one. It was a shipping forecast. A spoof map. This is blowers again. So... It just changed subtly the names of all the shipping forecast names. And he got the idea of it after a while. There was north of Shilpa, who used to work with us, south of Shilpa for Sierra and whatever. He got to Rockall, and we'd covered up the name that we'd changed it to, and he said, Rockall, this is going to be good. Fuckall!

45:09Very childish, but he got us through the day. Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair.

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46:54Agnes, both you have been broadcast for years and years. What do you reckon the biggest changes from back in the day to now? Biggest change? Well, I mean, technology is the biggest change to my job. I mean, you know, when I started doing this, there were no mobile phones or anything like that. So it was just a case of trying to get on the air. tours of India and places like that were tough and the office would be phoning all day just to try and get a line through to the hotel room so you'd be sitting in your hotel room all day looking at a big black phone wondering if it would ever actually spark up or not and if it didn't well okay we'll try again tomorrow I mean I think technology and filing interviews and the way that we broadcast now you know not those little little lines that you literally you know I've mentioned that thing was you know winding the handle you literally you would wind to handle and you'd hear the call going from Calcutta Exchange, Calcutta to Bombay, Bombay to Tehran, Tehran to Berlin, Berlin to...

47:50You'd hear them all picking it up and the plugs going in and then finally say, London, and that would be the post office tower. The plugs would go in and you'd miraculously go through to Broadcasting House. I mean, that was how it was. Now you just dial up a number and on you go. But the chat hasn't changed. I mean, we've all been involved. No, the chat hasn't. It's a great sort of family atmosphere, isn't it, to you? I mean, the biggest change, I suppose, if you look at when I and Bumble and I were doing it, it was entirely white, entirely male, and entirely kind of 50-year-old kind of middle-class people.

48:30You know, Fred would consider himself top high class, obviously. But it was, isn't it? And so in terms of the programme, the biggest change has been the diversity. And that's a good thing. You've got to... Cricket's for everybody. And so I think the way that the programme has evolved from that perspective has been a triumph.

48:50Phil Tufnell: I think age shall come into it, that diversity, if you're age. Add a word with that, Adam. I'm available. That is true. I'm shortly 66. The bus pass has been applied for. But I do feel like I'm very much the older statesman, but I shouldn't be at 66. Get me in. I'm in. I'd love to. Have a word. I mean, Brian was 83. Yep. Fred and Trevor would have been in their 70s. And the reason it's important is perspective, because it is very tempting to say, well, that's the greatest thing I've ever been, or that's the greatest thing. Actually, if you've got a slightly, someone who's got a bit more of a memory, because we're older, I think it's quite good for just keeping perspective into what are outstanding performances or disasters, or whatever it may be in cricketing terms.

49:40I think you do need... You shouldn't be pensioning people off too early, I don't think. As long as you can... Do you have a... I think you probably won't be able to answer this, but do you have kind of a number that you want to try and get to or an amount of tests or an amount of... No, not at all. I don't know how many I've done. I've probably done over 400 now. You're wondering what? Tests? You've done more than that, surely? I don't know. Some winters we haven't had the rights, I think. I honestly don't know.

50:09Phil Tufnell: You've still been involved in them, haven't you, if you haven't got the rights? Yeah, that's true. Barely not got the rights. I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. Go on. Oh, I don't know. I think probably as long as I can still do a decent job. I can still see the ball. Yeah. But you are our leader, John. Well, thank you, Tough. It's all we try. We try. What was your best one? Stokes? Oh, Stokes, Headingley. World Cup? No, Headingley. The Test match. Yeah. I was there. Yeah, there you go. You were there. Were you? It was your first game. My first ever game. First game on TMS. I remember actually, because I was getting close.

50:42Yeah. Well, we'd done when there were 70 needed to win, didn't it? I think me, you and Skipper sat at the back saying, what were we going to say about it? Yeah. The fact that they'd lost the Ashes. Well, we'd finish them at lunchtime, remember? Yeah. English cricket's finished. I think we'd... We'll wheeled out Geoffrey. RIP. I think we were doing it again, weren't we? We were going to say the end of the game. And then I started looking at the rotor and thinking, well, as this carries on, I'm going to be at the end. And I remember saying to Vaughn, I said, mate, do you want to do it? Because I was scared.

51:06You know, like moments like that. Debut. Debut. I don't want to be there at the moment and then mess it up. And Vaughn's like, no, no, you've got to do it. Then I started suddenly realised about broadcasting where you only have one chance. Do you know what I mean? This is my first event. I retired. And actually, on that one moment, And the one moment when the run out, all I shouted was, no, no, no. That was it. I was like, fuck. That last 20 minutes was incredible.

51:33Phil Tufnell: So you've got in the zone, haven't you? You've got to think. You get in the zone. Yes, you do. Oh, yeah. And people talk about the commentary, but actually commentating, I mean, the ball by ball, is actually really easy at moments like that because your job as a commentator is to, I think, bring the people who aren't there to where you are. and that's what it is and the atmosphere and all that. So when you've got a situation like that, you've got the crowd. You just let the crowd do it. You really don't have to say very much. It's that noise and excitement of people sitting on the edge of their seats.

52:05And down to the end, you nailed it, though, Cookie. You nailed it because you didn't say too much. And that's the thing. And when you're commentating, often you're trying to set something up or you're trying to build up towards something. And so, therefore, you don't want to be interrupted. And you didn't. You just said that one line about the greatest things played by an Englishman or something and you waited until I'd kind of done my bit and then you just dropped it in. And that was absolutely... What is really interesting is like I'd never done anything. Actually, the first ever... So I retired in 2018 and then 2019, beginning that tour, was West Indies.

52:38And BBC didn't have the rights, did they? But they did this, was it Cricket Social? Oh, that's right. Like, you know, you were kind of reporting. And actually, BBC invited me to go on for the second or third game. It was the best thing I ever did because, although we weren't live, I don't want to say it to Agus, but Agus taught me for ten days. It wasn't ten days cricket, was it? But just about stuff like that. Because, you know, you go in, I've listened to TMS since I was however old, and you just think, oh, this is how it works, actually. Until you actually sit there thinking about what you're going to say or what you say, your mind goes blank, doesn't it?

53:07You just think people are talking, but you've got to really think about what you're going to say or when you're going to say it. And I will never forget those ten days. A, for the fact that when I first turned up, So obviously, you know when you go on tour as a player, as you're institutionalised, you turn up at the airport, hand your passport in, everything's looked after you. But when you're with the media, you're a bit more... You have to do it yourself. Yeah. Anyway, so I text Agathe. We've been interviewed for years, but never really spent that much time together, had we? No. And I said...

53:33You had told me you were retiring, though. Yeah, I did tell her. You did slip me that one, which was nice of you. Yeah, but thanks. And then I said, what happened? He said, well, I'll tell you what, I'll look after you. When you get to the airport, I'll send my driver there, who's been looking after the West Indies, Rastafarian chap, long hair. He'll come and pick you up, take you to the airport, take you to the hotel, absolutely fine. He'll have a sign. So I was like, right, turn up at Antigua Airport? Antigua Airport. They're looking around. Where's my driver? Lost as anything. So literally like a school child on his first day at school, suitcase.

54:02You know, walking around, walking around, trying to find this driver. Obviously couldn't see him anywhere. And suddenly out appeared a sign. A cook, spelt wrong with a C in the middle of it. And then Agus. A cock? Yeah. We only filmed a whole five minutes. Big rasta hairdo on for the A cock. And he's obviously filming it. I was like, fuck. But then we had ten days where a lot of it, we weren't on air, were we? No. So we did quite a lot of just practising. Yeah. And it was the best thing I ever did.

54:32Phil Tufnell: Do you remember that time when he could have gone off air, TMS, there was a battle and old Peter Baxter, who was producer at the time, and would it be on Radio 4? Was it threatened with going off? Oh, yeah. And Bob Shannon was in charge at the time and people were fighting TMS's corner for it to stay on air. Well, if you remember, we were on air on three different frequencies in three years. So my first three years were all on different frequencies. There was Radio 3, there was Radio 3 FM. Yes. And the reason that we were able to stay on really was Brian Johnston because he was such an all-round broadcaster.

55:12People knew him down your way and all that. He was a massive figure. And dear old Brian, they signed up for Radio 4 Longwave, largely on the back of Brian, and then Brian died. He never broadcast on Radio 4 Long. He died. He'd done his job almost. He'd got us going. But that was a crisis. But it is amazing how widely that programme is listened to. Oh.

55:37Phil Tufnell: I mean, it's just... Well, it's a friend dropping in. You're in the car and you're interested in cricket and it's brilliant if you're driving the car. It is extraordinary. And you can tell by people recognising your voice. You know, you get in taxis. That Melbourne taxi I jumped in. I jumped in an Australian taxi in Melbourne a few years ago and all I said to this driver was MCG, because I work on the ABC in Australia as well, obviously. He looked at me and said, mate, I know, I've been listening to you on the cricket, haven't I? I know, you're Ag is, aren't you? I said, well, yes. Thinking, hey, you know, what's that?

56:10It was MCG. He said, mate, you're much less handsome in his sound on the radio. It's a great line. But you can tell when cricket's on, people are just kind of recognised. Well, we get the emails, don't we? We get emails in, don't we, from people. I mean, it's just amazing, you know, from all over, counting penguins in the North Pole or something, there's been one or something. We now know they're just made up in the back, aren't they? But you said what's changed, and actually that has changed a lot. The whole social media, email stuff, that has been a massive change because when it rained back in the day, you had none of that.

56:50I mean, you did have letters. A lot of letters. You got piles of letters. I guess it sort of piled through them. But the whole question of sort of interactivity with the audience hadn't really come about. So, yes, you might read a letter out, but it's done a bit stiffly. It wasn't done in the way that emails and texts and stuff are done now. So that's been a massive change. I think that's improved the programme a lot because you get these great messages in. Some are wild, some are bonkers. They're so much easier for the audience to get into.

57:22Phil Tufnell: Absolutely. Because they want to get involved. The audience wants to make it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they love it. Here I am. Some amazing ones during COVID. I mean, they were absolutely so emotional. Yes, they were. Oh, incredible. One from Brian, a letter from Brian from William H. Tit. I remember, of course, a few problems. We used to send all sorts in. That was a pucker one. He actually wrote to Mr. Tit afterwards and said, I'm really sorry that I laughed at your name. Yeah. I'd never gotten him a reply. I guess what? Do you remember the Alderman? Yes. Don Mosey. Don Mosey. Bill Frindle was a scorer.

57:54Yeah.

57:55Phil Tufnell: He did all of that without the internet. All those records and looking up stuff. Yes. Trevor Bailey and Fred and our big three summarizers. It was great fun. It was probably the first time I've ever encountered cricket, probably TMS. I think a lot of people, that's the case. As a very young lad, you know, probably playing in the garden or sat in the back of the car. Yeah. And Johnners and perhaps not Arlott but Johnners, wafting out the... Do you remember when you used to go under the pylons so you couldn't hear it? I can't. I thought it was the only way you could, particularly in the winter, it was the only way that you could...

58:29Under the duvet about cricket. I used to listen to it all the time. What about Boykes? Boykes. Oh, yeah. What's your favourite Test Match special moment with Geoffrey? Oh, well, it was his 100th, 100th wind-up, wasn't it? I've watched that a lot. Because everything just worked. And as long as you can keep a straight face and you know you're victim, then you can get away with murder on the radio. You really can. But that was just... You know, he'd gone on and on about that wretched 100th, 100th all summer. And, you know, Andrew Sampson came up with this thing about, you know, the rest of the world and all that, you know, how it evolved.

59:08But, I mean, he's quite gullible in a way. I mean, in that sort of way, you know if you press that point, you know you're going to get a reaction out of Boykes. But I loved working with him because he was a terrific analyst of batting. Oh, yeah. People used to get wound up, you know, if he does that any more longer, he'll get caught, second slip. And sure enough, four balls later, nicked out, caught, second slip. And everyone would say, oh, boycott, you know, he's done it again. But actually, he was just doing his job. I know he banged on about the same thing, you know, regularly. But he was a terrific analyst.

59:43I loved working with him. I knew he was brilliant. I thought he was a box office. Yeah, and he always knew the value of a boycott comment, didn't he? I mean, he kept going working in the media for years. He knew how to get a headline. His relationship with the players, I guess, how did you get on with him? When he was commentating on you... Yeah, fine. For the majority, we had a little bit of an interesting thing when he... Because he always was kind to me. And then, do you remember, it was 2015, when Colin Graves was the new... Yes, ECB chairman. ECB chairman. and at the beginning of the thing, the tour, he said, oh, England should beat this team.

1:00:22West Indies are a mediocre team. Yes, that's right, yeah. They stuck it on the dressing room door. And they stuck it, oh, we mediocre. That's a massive sign in their dressing room. And they drew the last, they won the last testament, so we drew the series. And I think, I don't know if it was you interviewing me or not, but someone, I think it was definitely on the radio and it was a question, I think it was you. I always get those horrible ones. And you said, do you think the chairman's comments at the beginning of the series helped? And I said, well, the fact they had it over their change room door probably gave them extra motivation with a massive smile on her face and saying, and he's a typical Yorkshireman.

1:00:59Like, that's what they say, right? But I said it was like, and this is when I, it was my mistake, really, because obviously on the radio, people sometimes, sometimes people don't get the fact that I was kind of smiling But I held our hands up and said, we didn't play very well, we lost. So it wasn't like using it as an excuse, I'd just say, I'm not sure it helped. The next day in his column, he just absolutely went at me, saying, like, who does he think he is? He's arrogant, he's this and this, right? Oh, he did. Like, properly, like... Long run Jeffrey. No, long run Jeffrey. He hadn't scored 100 for this and this is just after.

1:01:32And I was like... This is when Jeffrey said, if he had a daughter, he'd quite happily let him marry me. We've always got, fine, but he didn't just nail my cricket, he nailed me. Anyway, so I was like, I read this and I got my goat a bit. Anyway, I saw him the next day, because the game only lasted three days. He was hosting a lunch in a... In the Lone Star, wasn't it? In the Lone Star, that's right. And I was with Trotty and his wife and my wife. And Trotty, we had a couple of people, he'd go, go on, go on, go on, speak. Go on, speak. So Trotty loved the stuff, because Trotty was retiring. and I went up and said, Geoffrey, sorry to interrupt you, but when you finish your lunch, do you mind if I have a word?

1:02:10Just like, because I thought, you know, and it would have gotten really well. Anyway, he goes, no, we'll do it now. So he got his chair and he had his cushion, doesn't he? He had a cushion. Went and sat there. I was like, God. Anyway, I said, mate, you know that column you wrote about, I have no problems, but you actually attacked me really personally. Like, it was really unlikely. I thought it was a bit wrong. I thought, attack my cricket, but not me. And he just goes, well, you attacked a Yorkshireman. so I thought I was going to defend every Yorkshireman. I went back at you. I was like, so the whole...

1:02:39And I was like, yeah, what does Joe Root think of you now? What does Johnny Bares say? And he lists Adam Lyon. I was like, oh, no, they're fine. I just couldn't get to the fact that I'd attacked and said something, one bad thing about Yorkshiremen. That was it. But we're fine. Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. All right, guys, we'll get on to this winter. I love working with the Telegraph because I always know. So, Perth, day two. you've got Nick Holt-Wilm at first and come around the boxes and as soon as England start playing a few shots it's always it's a Geoffrey day isn't it? Get on the phone to Geoffrey I think he'd sacked everybody long before anyone else even talked about it But what about this winter?

1:03:19I was angry about it and maybe there's a touch of selfishness about it because you never know if you're going to get the chance to go back again or not but I really thought England would win this time if they won the first test That was always my little caveat. But I was kind of offended as well by the, not arrogance, that's probably the wrong word, but the attitude towards hard work and preparation. We're all professional cricketers in different ways and different styles and different work ethics or whatever. But I think we do all know what you have to do to be able to be in the right shape to take the field.

1:03:58and I found myself likening it to buying a ticket to go to the theatre to watch a play and when you do that, you kind of expect the actors to have learnt their lines, don't you? Well, it just seemed to me that, you know, the equivalent, they hadn't done the work. I've got interview examples from Ben Stokes in that tour saying, yeah, but you don't really understand, Jonathan. That was years ago. That's a long time ago you're talking about when you used to do those games. Oh, OK. and it works for us. Thinking, oh, is it? Well, you're 3-0 down. Doesn't seem to be going terribly well. You know, and it was just a stubbornness because we had been going on about the preparation.

1:04:38It wasn't in hindsight since July. When the schedule came out, the very first day, I remember getting the email and getting on the radio and being angry. This is not, that's not the way you're going to win the Ashes. And Australia were there. They were there for the taking. If we had won that first test, I think there'd have been a fair amount of mayhem in their camp. It was. But I was just disappointed and it's... Look, our job isn't hard in the sense of what a lot of people do for a living. But the hardest part of my job is having to front up and interview the captain straight after a defeat.

1:05:15I've done it with you, I've done it with you. And it's tough. We never fell out there, did we? No, we never did fall out. Did we fall out? I think you reminded me once that I'd never played for England before. I think I might have mentioned you bowling. No, no, we didn't fall out. But it's hard and I really feel it for the captain as well to come off. And so Ben at Perth, it wasn't great. Two days, 50 ,000 people totally humiliated. And the captain walks off and you're standing there and you're alive. That's not, that's a tough interview. It wasn't good that day. But you have to ask those questions, don't you?

1:05:58You can't not ask them. And I've listened back to that interview a lot of times and I asked the questions that had to be asked, but I did it respectfully. I really did, and politely. Yeah. You ask the question. Some of those dismissals, Ben, they looked a bit soft. And people coming out to watch the next test might expect the players to be playing in the game at Canberra, maybe. You've now got another three days off. And you try and ask it in those ways. But he was angry that day. But I get it. You are. But he was angry because of what he witnessed as well, wasn't he? And then he's got to lie as a captain.

1:06:34Straight after. Straight after. No, no, it's a really... The relationship of particularly the BBC correspondent and the England captain is a precarious one because we interview a lot, three times a week maybe, you know, day before the game, at the toss, immediately after the game. And so you've got to keep that relationship on a respectful level. And if I were to ask the questions that you get shouted at off social media, you'd never talk to me again. So it's a really difficult balance. Ben and I were very up and down on that series. And I'd be interested to see... Have you spoken to him since?

1:07:12No, I tried to at the airport. Oh, right. And he obviously had something else to do. So that was our leaving point, but that's fine. I can always remember, you know, at the end of a really bad day, you'd sort of like, you'd finish doing your work and what have you, and then you're off like that, and then Agnes would be sitting at the back going, oh, no, I've got to go and interview Stokes. What more can I say? I've got some great pictures of me interviewing Stokes' face, just kind of contorted and staring at you.

1:07:43Phil Tufnell: Do you at any stage, when there's a new captain comes on board, do you sort of get to know him and chat with him and say, look, it's going to be tough. Well, I do do that. Yeah. Definitely. I mean, I think... And also what I do try and say, if you're going through a bad patch, is you've got to look beyond me because you're actually talking to millions of people. So just because you're angry with me for asking a question... You're just the conduit. Yeah. If you sound angry, then you're going to sound angry to them. I'll be back tomorrow. but it is a very precarious relationship that has to be quite carefully managed.

1:08:18Phil Tufnell: So how do you sort of weigh it up that like Gus Atkinson has just said and he got a reaction, it's only cricket? Well, he's a guy who lost his mother in tragic circumstances. That's right. So, I mean, he knows a bit about that sort of life, doesn't he? You know, I think Johnny Bairstow is in a sort of similar condition in the way that he played the game. if you've been through proper tragedy in your life, then sport is sport, isn't it? But to people who paid a lot of money to go out and play, go back to your first question, I was angry for them because we should have done better. It should have been better.

1:08:55It should have been better. And I felt sorry for some of those players. There will be some who will have sat on that aeroplane going home who will never go back. That was their one chance, a childhood dream, to go to Australia and win the Ashes. and they will know that they didn't give it their best shot. For whatever reason, for not being able to go off and play various games or not playing enough cricket, they will know that they didn't, for whatever reason, they didn't give it their best shot. And I think that's really sad. And that whole question of the culture, I don't know how it got to that.

1:09:26Do you think they'll stay, the management? Or should they stay? I mean, this show goes out in a few weeks, so I'm pretty sure Baz McCullum, Rob Key, the management will stay. What got me about it, if I'm honest, about that series and what's happened since is the lack of accountability. If you keep going out there and playing poor shots, then someone else actually deserves to have a chance to play. And you should be held accountable for not playing responsibly. I mean, Harry Brook, for me, is a fantastically talented batsman. I just hope he realises it. I hope he fulfils that. because for me his batting in that Ashes series was you know that reverse sweep at Adelaide you can go back to these things 8 for 3 8 for 3 at Melbourne he came from I mean you know and then he fell off with Czech he did for a picture he's a better player than that you know but yet is it the environment I mean I think Basball and this is well it's important to remember the first 18 months of Basball was brilliant it's fantastic breath of fresh air entertaining superb but it kind of ran away with itself and you're not going to the best teams by playing like that.

1:10:32And I just wonder if people like, if Baz Ball actually has been good for Harry Brook and some others, Jamie Smith and others, has it been good for them? I don't know. I think Brook is in that category. If people are saying, I don't think it's been very good for him. He's averaging 56 though. Well, yeah, but a lot of that, I mean, take it away, but take away scores in Pakistan. That's like saying take away Brian Lara's 750 runs in the two knocks. He can't do it. He didn't average 30 in Australia, did he? So that's the I agree. The only thing I ever have, and I keep going, the money side of it, and I remember having an argument with you after Perth, the players, they do care.

1:11:10They did care. They did care about that tour. Of course. So their argument is saying they don't care about the players, the people come out and pay their money. They didn't want to lose in two days. They didn't say, well, if I lose in two days, I'll get three days extra on the piss or anything like that. But the management got that wrong, not the players. Yes, I agree. I think when I say about the players going home. The players got it wrong. Well, the players should have left a few outside off started to miss when you have an environment that doesn't have a consequence for failure. Yeah, correct.

1:11:38That's the problem. You create a culture which is, it's just too cosy. Yeah. And it is a cosy club and that's what they've got to change. The problem with the set-up was there was no one else who could have come in to take anybody's place because they had no cricket. We didn't have a spare wicketkeeper on the floor. We didn't have a spare opening batter on the floor. So, there was no consequence for a lack of responsibility on and off the field. and that's, you know, that's really disappointing. And to answer your question, yes, I think whoever signed that tour off, I think should be accountable for it.

1:12:08John, it's been an absolute pleasure. I've loved being on. Honestly, it's been a pleasure. We've done about an hour and 15 and we could have done probably... Oh, really? Could have kept going all day for five days. And the best bit about it, we haven't had to get Philip to do a batting demo. Thank God for that. Oh, and I've seen enough of those.

1:12:26Phil Tufnell: You could have had him up to do a batting. Don't start that. Aga's brilliant. Thank you.

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