Justin Langer: Next England Coach? Ben Stokes & Test Cricket Worry! | Stick to Cricket EP 55

0:00Michael Vaughan: Before we get started I'd like to thank our partners Betfair. Hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show. Morning everyone. All good? How are we? What have you been doing H? It's the 100 Sunday. MSG. The what? The 100. Oh the elephants? Yeah the elephants. You weren't watching them did you? Almost the same yeah it was good fun. Were you in the crowd? I was indeed yeah. Which stand were you in? I was in East End under the point. Oh nice. Gets a bit cold under there in the shade. I was in Sports Breaks Terrace as well for a bit and it got really cold. Right, right. Where have you been?

0:35Michael Vaughan: Two and two, aren't they? Elephants. Yeah, doing well. Really well. Yeah, got a shirt. The owner that had... Free shirt. Well, every ticket you get a free shirt, which I think is pretty good. Did everyone put them on? There was a lot of shirts. I didn't get a flag, no. I couldn't deal with it. It's in my way. Couldn't see. Right, yeah. How many were in the crowd? 12 ,500. That's pretty good. The crowd's been down this year. I think they have, like, 20%, isn't it? Lalit Modi's laughing somewhere, isn't he? I think they've put the prices up a little bit. Have they? It's down to each franchise now to sell the tickets.

1:04Michael Vaughan: Is it? It's 24 quid, I think. It used to be the ECB hub. Right. Where you buy all the tickets for all the games. I think London's 30-yard, 40 quid, and Manchester's 24. OK, so London's cheaper. Yeah, a bit more inflated down south, obviously. A lot of kids there. Did you watch the women's game as well? It got abandoned because of the rain. You had rain here, didn't you? Yeah, and then I missed half an hour. I thought the men's game was starting later. Right. So I got there late. So I still I missed Butler's 50. That's how late I was. Or how quick Josh was. So you get 91 off 49. You got 90 off 50 in the end.

1:37Yeah, looks alright. So you look good. Sonny Baker. He's back Butler, isn't he?

1:40Michael Vaughan: He's had a little bit of a moment and he's back. Played well for England now. Sonny Baker looked the absolute go-nudge. Quick. Josh Tong looked very quick. From the south. Saw one ball actually on Insta. It flew through to the heap of Bosh. Yeah. I went to San Fran. Yeah? Went to San Fran to watch the MLC Major League Cricket Final. who won LA KKR any good yeah they won it Jason Holder's crew yeah they got over the line against Ricky Ponton's team you're on Punditry your comms no no I was just there I went to just see it as a guest invite I went with the San Francisco unicorns the unicorn yeah the unicorns yeah should brought a shirt back I've got a shirt actually should bring it in yeah it's done yeah it's down in the smoke but I'll bring it up here it's got Qualey's on the front so now the guys at uh quailies which is good yeah so it's san fran got back to the first game of the 100 at the oval uh my london won that one quite easy they look quite strong they won again last night yeah they did yeah i think it'll be in my london msg yeah this team might fold away we'll see that ball attack's so strong though yeah yeah we'll see so it's a long time about eight games what do you need to win five to get into the elimination i think it's around five five or six Yeah.

2:50Michael Vaughan: I then went to Portugal golfing. Who were you with? You were someone pretty big, weren't you? I got drawn against Brooks Koepke. Got drawn against him, yeah. Me and my partner Rick. Played Brooks and his pal Kyle. How did he play, Brooks? He's strong, yeah. I mean, it's his enjoyment time. It's his kind of week off from professional golf. So he was doing a tequila shot every hole. Bit of super block on the ball. Did you keep up? Yeah, I tried to keep up. I usually want to play golf, get a shot at a hole, but I didn't realise what shot hole I was getting. Yeah, so he was kind. Oh, he smokes it.

3:23Michael Vaughan: 330 yards, he hit one in the air. What, carry? Yeah, onto a green. Some guys were putting out, bosh, straight and then their feet. Yeah, that was a good week. Enjoyed that. But now I'm back. Yeah. I'm back, yeah. Have we got a bit of 100 stuff? Yeah, a bit of 100. Nice guest today. Is there one else here, by the way? Have they arrived? I might have to fill in. Sit down, Harry. Just sit down, have a grape. Oh, brew, it's gone posh. Posh and healthy. I've got a brew. He'd a brew. Football season starts soon, doesn't it? Yeah, exciting. You're excited, aren't you? Wednesday back. Yeah, Wednesday coming back.

3:53Michael Vaughan: Get ready. Yeah? Yeah, get ready. Leighton Orient away up August 15th. Are you going? Yeah. Day before the 100th final. Right in the mix. I've been in the mix, yeah. Remember when Marty Dean went to Tram there? Stood on the barrier. Like you? Yeah, yeah, I've been proud, yeah. Leighton Orient would be standing, won't it? Away in. I imagine it would be. I don't think you'd sit down. Is it behind the goal at Leighton? Or do you get the side? I've not been to Leighton Orient. We'll sell out. League One. League One, yeah. That should be sold out. We're sold out. You're not seated, no? You go and properly get involved with the fans?

4:23Yeah. You get your Stone Island on as well?

4:26Michael Vaughan: No, I don't go to Stone Island now. No, I'd be a bit poor they're not, won't it? I'll have my shorts on, blue and white. It'd be a great day out there. Get a bus down with all the boys? I'll be down there for the final show. Oh, right then. The 100s out. Yeah. I'll get a train over. It'll be a good season. Where is Leighton Orient? I ain't got... It's down there, isn't it? Down south. Down in London. I see here we go. Here goes yeah, we are all right boys Another batter for us jail nice to see you All right I was Spain no, it's a lot. I'm going back to self to do. Oh, yeah, but to Spain. Yeah What are you flown back for this?

5:07Yes, I am. Well, that's me old mate, JL. Ah, yes, yes.

5:11Phil Tufnell: All right, Dave. Yeah, good. I brought allotment. Allotment stuff. All right, who's that for? Apples. Can I have one of those apples? Yeah, man. Take them all with me. They're for you, JL. This is what I eat. Crab apples. They're proper apples. What are they? New potatoes. Second earliest. They're not new. Anybody will put them down. What are the apples? It's for JL. It's for the guests. Come on. We'll leave them here. Somebody will, Harry will move them. He hasn't had none of this.

5:35Michael Vaughan: Come on the guests, Dave. You can't do the potatoes. They're for the team at Manchester. Well, they can't take potatoes back. You take them. I'll take the apples, you take the potatoes. I'll take the spuds. Bit of butter, bit of salt and salt. Hey, what's that all about? Potatoes.

5:51Phil Tufnell: No, that's the second early. I'm sure it is. Like that. Purple spuds.

5:56Michael Vaughan: I like the look of them. Heritage. They're lovely. Jersey Royals. Purple carrots. Not bad. yeah got your wife here well that is a first that is the saying is organic an apple a day is worth two in the bush oh lovely couple is it lovely well i don't know apple a day are they from your did they uh are they are they windfalls no straight off the poikski yeah nice and no maggots no no Hey, it's good to see you in your home shirt, Dave. Crystal Palace. Yeah. The Palace. The Palace. The Palace. That's their pants. It's the right of the goal, isn't it? They all wear black. They do this. That is a good...

6:46I tell you something, it gets jumping there. You like the Palace. Well, they're sort of not too far from me.

6:51Phil Tufnell: You knew us name dropping. You knew I was sore last night. How do? How are you doing? All that. Josh Butler.

6:57Michael Vaughan: Well, is this the day out that you went on your own and didn't invite any of us? Yeah, I like being on my own. JL stayed in the Stade of the day. I didn't know we were there, did I? We're old muckers now from our commentary days. Channel 7. And Sarah Taylor.

7:11Phil Tufnell: She'd be good for us. Right. Sarah. Keep her? Yeah. But she's keeping with the men. You should see her throw. She's got a good arm. Better than yours. Come on, the cat had an army. Was it in Sydney that one day? Yeah. Not a few out, mate. Three yards away. a few take our a few have taken the cat on me he's off to speak could just come back from Spain and going back he's coming traveling I picked him up this morning yeah to pick him up this morning do you live in Spain these days from your taxa I was gonna do this on zoom you were telling me about when you had a big car an x5 you know he's got he's got one of these big cars bumble when it yeah it's a discovery North Yorkshire moors you need a discovery yeah he had an excellent he crashed an X5 twice in the same day.

8:00And I get rid of it after that. It's too big, Mike. How did you crash it? I reversed into someone. Why? Into a human? No. No, into a parked car. Because I couldn't see out the back. There was too much sort of going on. And I've reversed into it. And then I got up the next day to sort of go and see the insurance people to talk about it and everything like that. Needed some petrol. Pulled into the petrol station. Crashed into the petrol station. It was too much. I said, right, that's it. How many pints have you had? No, no, no. Phil, Phil. I've got a little one now, yeah. He's got a little one, yeah.

8:37You don't drive it, do you?

8:38Michael Vaughan: What do you drive in Spain when you're out there? I've got a little Skoda. Have you? Yeah, they smash them up in Spain. You leave them, they come back in peace. Why don't you drive a Harley Davidson in Spain? Oh, the big old bikes. Shirt off. What, leather waistband? Leather waistband. Tassels, tassels, and just sit there with your Calbee hat on. I just hope so that police people are he that I it can't you got as you got a driving license I don't think I've ever seen you drive I've never seen you are the English list good point in this or we drive memory or you get driven up by Roger yes I was Roger he was on here

9:16Michael Vaughan: we had his driver on edge just before the ashes Roger Roger you know yeah yeah Roger sat there, said, Roger, who's going to be England's best bowler in the ashes? He went, Geoffrey Archer. He kind of knew Big Roger. When was the episode... You've got an iPad here, H. Borny, when was the episode where I was there, Tufnell, talked about that partnership with JL? Has that gone out yet? Oh, yeah, did it? Do you remember having a partnership with him in county cricket? Yeah, you got 250 against someone. You came in at about five. Yeah. Don't know why you were batting at five. I brought it up the other day on the radio.

9:56And you got me through the 250. That's what you're saying. From 70. It was unbelievable. And you kept coming up to me after going, they can't bowl at me, they can't bowl at me. I think it was Lloyd Tennant, a little fella from Lesnar or something. Poor old Lloyd. Poor old Lloyd. He was going, they fucking can't bowl at me. I can see it in their eyes. And I was going, yeah, just go on, son. Go on, son. You got a note, didn't you? I got one. One? Yeah, I got one. No, did you get one? We got no.

10:26Michael Vaughan: Put on 50 on and you got no. Jack Lake's got one. You got caught in bold cropping. You might get on to that, J.O., you know. Why, why? We might get on to a bin picking stuff. Why would you? Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. So just hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

10:53If you haven't got a foundation of footwork, you're dead. You'd go down like that. His first ball in IPL cricket, hits it for six over cover. His first ball in IPL cricket. For me, the real coach makes a difference to the player, improves the player. A lot of guys now, if they're squeezing hard, you can't move. But back then, it was so relaxed.

11:16Phil Tufnell: They're on their ropes. You've got to cover up and wait your time to come out. No, it's mine. I'm going to throw it for you. Of course I'd kick the bin again. What is going on? And they just belted him. He was going. I didn't go to training because I had an extra two hours with Alex Ferguson.

11:37Michael Vaughan: You speak to him. You see the answers. Hello. Junior, how are you? What's going on? Did you say that you'd rather slam your **** in the door than coach England?

11:51God save us!

11:59Michael Vaughan: Manchester Super Giants, JL. Yes. You're the coach. Do you have a song when you win? Oh! Do you have a team song? Well, interestingly, we do, yeah. We've just sang it for the first time, like, two nights ago. How does it go? How does it go? We're working through it. To the tune of what? And my phones are back in the green room, right? Why do you ask? Well, I asked because the sunrise did you see that? Here we go. This is ems. Yeah, it's poor the sun. I'm gonna turn it up H. You're a Jeremy They said this is it's like they're all

12:43Michael Vaughan: Marching on together leads We're bringing in the same, and I'll keep in there. Lease, Lease! Highball away, we'll smash them all day. I hope they...

13:00Phil Tufnell: Is this working pro? Yeah! Look at Zach.

13:04Michael Vaughan: Zach's given it plenty. He's the skipper. We're watching all together. We're gonna win, win, win. I think they've nailed that. They've absolutely no one. Who's this fella? Louder and very surprised as Leeds! Leeds! Who is that? Oh, no, very good. Yeah, Leeds marching on together. Is yours better than that? Hopefully we sing it a lot this summer, but, yeah, they're all a work in progress, aren't they? All I hope is they're not singing it tonight. Oh, yeah. We're playing them tonight. Travel to Leeds tonight. Headingly? Yeah, play tonight. I thought you'd be there, you home ground, Dave. It is, yeah.

13:45You could sneak there, couldn't you? I could sneak in there. Who's got you to do yours, as in who's organised it? Because I was about a question, didn't realise you've got one. Yeah, I think it's... Whose idea is it? Well, our song must is Ryan Cook,

14:04who helped us with our one at LSG. He's with us all the time. The LSG one fires up. And, yeah, the other night we had our first crack at it. and

14:14Michael Vaughan: went alright well you've had you've had two wins you've had two wins two out of two started at Lourdes it was nice to play at Old Trafford the Old Trafford wicket was brilliant the other night good attack good pace good pace and bounce yeah got a nice attack so it was nice and then to win the first game at Lourdes was also nice so anyway it's only two games in great competition tough competition

14:36Phil Tufnell: that Lourdes game they're a tasty outfit aren't they yeah

14:41Michael Vaughan: well the ones that we've backed they haven't won yet now do we back London Spirit because of Andy flowers that I was because of the free shirts well we've got a beautiful family it's got the Eagles I'm actually elephants well they've got wings like the eagle behind the elephant hey before we go on what's happened at York City sack the manager and brought another

15:02Phil Tufnell: head coaching right change change the title head coach the day after sack the manager brought in head coach the day after so they've changed the kind of structure yeah what's the difference well I would think I would guess the head coach doesn't have much influence in signing players that's done above on the

15:24Michael Vaughan: continental model it's what happens in Europe you know the real Madrid's a

15:29Phil Tufnell: similar York City are followed you follow football in no no no we weren't great at football were you mate no no no horrible Australian rules football very good no worries beautiful but soccer I call it soccer we call it the round ball game not so good no Toblerone we used to call you worse worse than that I should have been the goalie I reckon and I don't know over the top of the way around the place yeah not very good at football but you you're not karate is karate or jujitsu or something like one of them yeah which is it you're in you've got a black belt of some chop and block zendu kai it's called yeah is that all yes yeah yeah chop and block was it was yeah do you still do it i do i've got a great boxing gym at home at my house so i and i use it as a great coaching tool actually particularly for batting boxing um but yeah i box at least every second or third day at home.

16:35Michael Vaughan: What, you mean like foot movement? Yeah, well, boxing's awesome. I always felt, and I did it all through my career, that the martial arts started me off and then the boxing, because you think about batting, you've always got to face your opponent. You've got to have good defence. You've got to have good attack. You've got to have good footwork. You've got to have really good technique. And the other thing about boxing is you're in a ring. You can't hide. And it's the same if you play international cricket or domestic cricket. There's nowhere to hide. You're out there and you're in the fight. Bring it on, baby.

17:04Imagine if you'd have done that.

17:06Michael Vaughan: I know.

17:07Phil Tufnell: You'd have improved your body. I managed to hide all right.

17:12Phil Tufnell: Recent podcasts here, I've said that I'm big into boxing. I love boxing. And cricket is just like boxing. I said he said he won. I've never mentioned boxing once. He said that. What has he said that? Rewind. Harry, go back through the episode. Do rewind. When does he mention boxing? I'll bet you anything. I'll bet you anything. I believe it. Go on. Because I'll tell you, when we're talking about England, just play this way, gungo, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Correct, correct. I said, I love boxing. In Australia, you did it. It's exactly the same. Boxing, sometimes you're on the ropes, you've got to suck it up, you've got to defend, and then you've got to pick your moment when you come out and say, I'm going to go now.

17:51Phil Tufnell: It's just like boxing. Cricket's just like boxing. When I was Lancashire coach, when I was at length, what was his name? Early 90s. You'd never believe this, who I brought in. who were an Olympian called Geoff Thompson, right? A boxer. And so we got, in the changing rooms at the old pavilion, Man City fans and Man United fans. Oh, this is good. And put boxing gloves on them and shoved them in the room and shut the door and left it. You've never seen the state of them coming out. Absolutely battered. Did you win that year? And Geoff... Yeah, we did, actually. Well, there you go. We used to win.

18:28Phil Tufnell: Of course we used to win. We used to win trophies. But you got a jab at the start. City versus United. All teams, so it's a Lancashire cricket team together. But Man United, Man City, the same players, bang. They knocked seven bells out of each other in the room. They had gloves on, get the gloves on. Yeah, they would get the gloves on. I'm loving it. David Steve Bunce Lloyd over here. Phil, I was everywhere tough now. I don't even believe it. You said I told you I'd made some boss. Yeah, you did well done, Dave. I apologise.

19:00Michael Vaughan: Yeah, sorry Dave. Sorry Dave. Before we start the show, we haven't started the show yet, Jale. No, no. What the...? Can we just reminisce? We lost one of the greats last week. Sir Gary. Sir Gary Sobers. Yes, yes. Memories. I played golf with him at Royal Westman in Barbados two or three times. What a gem. What a good player. Brilliant guy, but a great guy. Gentleman. Lovely, lovely guy.

19:26Phil Tufnell: Played with a smile on his face. Didn't go to bed till three in the morning. What, a cinematic cat? No, no. One thing I've always heard about Sir Garfield's over is that all players, when you sort of put the best players in teams from the generations, he was always in it. Every time. He was in it every time, from young fillers to old fillers. First pick. Sir Gary's sake, first pick. I played against him a lot and what really stuck out was... Are you that old? He looks well, doesn't he? You are, you're in great nick. I'm back in the gym. You know what? Organic stuff. Organic stuff, that's it. Anyway, Gary, one of the great men, smile on his face, hit it hard.

20:12Phil Tufnell: He hit the ball hard. Massive follow through, didn't he? He had a massive sort of back... I just kept seeing him in all the old footage of him, sort of like ending up sort of there. And don't forget, he bowled tasty left arm over, and bowled spin, bit of wrist spin, caught pigeons. all with a smile on his face and he always got time for you always had time for you. You'd have met him a lot wouldn't you Joe? Beautiful man. The controversy about him you know we talk about he would really get on his high horse you talk about reverse swing wouldn't have it wouldn't have that he said it's either swinging this way or that there's no such thing as reverse swing and he pulled me up I would commentate I was doing commentary and I said oh that's reverse swing.

20:56Phil Tufnell: And he pulled me after. He said, there's no such thing as reverse swing. It's either swinging in or swinging out. I played in the game when Brian got 3-7-5. I served it up to Brian and then he came walking out. Then he came walking out on the way to Antigo. The place shut down for about half hour. I was sitting on the side like that. I had some corn soup. Honestly, they both gave me some corn soup. I was sitting there 20 minutes, he's come out, Brian, he's giving a kiss and everything. I reckon he might have fancied facing you two. lefty so he took left on oh don't tell me you got him out can we check this place all right Lancashire versus Knott's.

21:47Phil Tufnell: Go on. Just check in. Just make sure, Dave. Lancashire versus Knott's. 1875. What was he on? 220? No, no, not many. Apparently, cricket info doesn't go about that far, Dave. How did you get him out? I think it was bold, but I can't... What, through the gate? Yeah, but I think he wanted to go and watch the three o 'clock. Oh, well, there you go. He liked his racing, didn't he?

22:09Michael Vaughan: He liked his racing. Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Right, come on, let's get on to this serious stuff. Ben Stokes. JL, what did you make of Ben's retirement? Blue with that one, didn't he? Well, what I do know is he is the one guy who... I remember we played in the last Test match after that famous series when he had that amazing innings. And I remember saying to Joss Butler, is he a good bloke? We're having a beer on the Changer at the Oak. Is he a good bloke? And I remember Joss saying, I knew from back in the Somerset days, he says, JL, if you coached him, he would be your favourite player ever to coach.

22:54There you go. I went, really? Because I'd seen some of the things off the field and I'd heard about Ben Stokes and I'd watched him play the innings. But I also remember that bowling spell before the innings. I thought, this guy, my heart, he's a bloody warrior, right? So that night I put a baggy green cap on him and chucked him over my shoulder because we'd had a few beers by the end of the series. Just chucked him over my shoulder and walked out with him. Never played for us. How would I think of his retirement? There's lots of different views on it. I think when you're a player like that who's done what they have for England, I think go out however you want.

23:26That's my honest view. And I know I've heard all the counter-arguments for it, but I thought respect. He's been brilliant for England. He's been a great warrior. And he goes out like he went out.

23:38Phil Tufnell: Do you think he'll come back? I'm not sure. Good question. Only he can answer that. I know about retirement and what's most interesting, we've got Cain Williamson, I think you're seeing today. He's working with us at the Super Giants and he did it the complete opposite, didn't he? If you think about the contrast in retirements and he goes out, there's no fanfare, no press conference. And that's Cain. I mean, they're the different personalities. Will he come back? What I honestly believe is that when you know your time's up, your time's up. and I've said that to me. I remember Gilly, our great mate Gilly, rang me one day and he goes, man, I thought you were a bullshit artist.

24:20I said, what are you talking about? He said, you told me I'll wake up one day and I know it's time to retire. Happened last night, I'm retiring today. I think that's what happens with sports, where I'd retired the year before for Australia. I think that's what happens. So only Ben can answer that, whether he will come back or not. I don't think he will. I think it's the kind of fella that, even with an Ashes character.

24:40Michael Vaughan: But he's typical of Ben Stokes, isn't he? I think he had a break and his first game back for Durham, he wins them again with 108 not out. I mean, it's Derby. It's a standard. It's probably a bit. Was he? Was he got cramp? Cramping on one leg. On one leg. How many times have we seen that? Yeah. I mean, he's an incredible kind of mind. Well, the other thing about will he come back, I mean, guys like that, he's so fit. Physically he can, mentally he can, but only in his heart if he wants to.

25:09Phil Tufnell: Has he got the desire? Well, again, only he can answer that. When it comes to the Ashes, from an Australian point of view, I hope he doesn't because, like, he's a warrior. You'd have him in your team every single day of the week.

25:21Michael Vaughan: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned Australia. We've got to get straight to it, Jail. The coach, the test coach, is available. Have you had a phone call from Rob Key or anyone at the... No, no, I haven't, no. You've not had one phone call? No, I haven't heard from anyone. And at Sinj, I mean, you read all this, it's all paper talk. It's all... Because you were in the papers.

25:38Phil Tufnell: All of a sudden, you were the frontrunner. You were the frontrunner. Well, they've got to put a book on it. They've got to have a book of Zeus' favourites. Read them out.

25:46Michael Vaughan: Read them out. Well, fair odds. Here we go. Here we go. Richard Dawson is now 6-4. 6-4. Stephen Fleming, 5-2. Justin Langer, 3-1. Alistair Cook, 22-1. Oh, you're in it. I'm on it. He's drifted.

26:00Phil Tufnell: Cook's drifted.

26:01Michael Vaughan: He's drifted. Stuart Broad, 90-1. Tom Moody, in at 4-1. That's interesting. That's interesting. Jonathan Trott, 7-2. How do they... Phil Tufnall. Yeah. Phil Tufnall. Phil Tufnall. I'd be good. I'd be good. Hold on. Stuart Broad. 90 to 1. 90 to 1. I've got to say something. Now, I might be misquoting you here, OK? But did you say quite a long time ago that you'd rather slam your knob in the door than coaching? Now, that's Jeremy Paxman's style. Did you say that? I'm not sure. Did I say that to you? No, didn't you say that? Publicly, yeah. Didn't you say that? Check it. Killer question.

26:45Phil Tufnell: You'd have to find that somewhere. Killer question. Would you like to coach England? There you go. I think it's a... Yes or no. There's three coaching roles in the world as a coach. The Australian head coach, the Indian head coach and the England head coach. So, yeah, but it's all hypothetical, isn't it? Why is that though, Jess? Why? Those three strokes? Yeah, I mean, just because they're the biggest teams. One thing, yeah, they're the biggest teams. I'm passionate about the game of cricket, but mainly about Test cricket. And I think for, I've seen now franchise cricket, which is awesome, you know, it's awesome.

27:26But we've got to have Test cricket. We've got to have international cricket. It brings the whole country alive, you know. But so I'm really keen, and we see it in Australia, we see it in England that Test cricket must keep thriving for the health of the game. So that's why I say about the three big countries that it's really important that it keeps going strong. Sure, but out of anyone who I'd ever seen put on a bag of green, you know what I mean? You sort of, you know, Aussie through and through. Could you wear even three lines at WA, at the Optus that you were walking around there with?

28:05Phil Tufnell: I want to see all his mates back in Australia from that great Australian team. JL, you've got the three lions on. Come on, son. As soon as you see the name of those names, Ponting or Hayden or... Gilchrist, Ponting, Hayden.

28:24Michael Vaughan: You do your first press conference and you mention us, as in England, us. Yeah. Could you walk round Lord's and Aussie? Could you walk around Laws? Did they offer you a job with an Aussie tracksuit at Laws? It's a nice tracksuit. If you'd have asked me that five years ago, seven years, he'd probably said no. Now I'm a bit older. It's a job. And you're there to... No, he's a coach. He's now a professional coach. Thomas Tuchel is our England football manager. Germany are our rivals. I think with world cricket as well, it's so global. It's always been a global sport, but you see everyone and it's so different.

29:04I'd never have dreamed I'd be coaching franchise cricket. I never dreamed I'd coach Australia. So it's become really, but I think about it, Rod Marsh, who had more influence on me in my cricket career than any person. You know, I think about Rod, he was my hero when I was a kid. He was the head coach of the Cricket Academy who got me back when I got dropped for the first time. And then he'd become a great friend. There was no better person in the world to have a beer with than Rod Marsh. Like he was just, and he was as a, Lily Marsh, like Australian. Well, he came. He was running the cricket academy.

29:39Michael Vaughan: Huge impact on our game. Yeah, that's what he did. Yeah, because he was our academy. I remember sitting next to Tom Moody. We were having a beer and a, so a red wine and a steak at his house. And Rod Marsh had died. We were having a commemorating our grave. And that night, sitting next to Moody, and Warnie died the next day. The beep-beep, the foeman, often there's... So we lost Warnie and Rod Marsh in two days, right? So when it comes to coaching, it is a career and everyone looks at all opportunities, doesn't they? George, did you see the... George, I'm talking of team songs. I'm waiting for you to say it.

30:26Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. What about the dynamic of this England team structure now, where you've got obviously Baz has gone from overall coach to now just a whiteboard coach. How does that work if, say you've got the job or been given the phone call, can that dynamic work? It can if you've got the right people and they've got to get on very well and they've got to be on the same page. They're going to have the same thinking. You've seen it. I think it happened with Andy Flower and Ashley Giles here. I think it happened with Mottie, Matthew Mott and Baz to a degree. My personal view has always been that if you're the head coach of Australia, you should oversee all of it.

31:08It doesn't mean you have to be there for all of it, but there's got to. I mean, now it's complicated, right, with T20 cricket, with white ball cricket. They've got to be really on the same page. and the director of cricket has to be, they've got to work like a hand in gloves. So I would say that it's going to be, there'll be some teething issues with it for Baz and whoever he's doing it with. They work well together. It could work, but there hasn't been too many examples where it has worked. When you say they've got to be on the same page, sorry, coach, when you say they've got to be on the same page, what does that actually mean?

31:44Well, if I'm the, if you're the head coach of the test team, You want your 11 best players. So it's just about personnel, is it? Personnel, there's personnel, yeah. I think that's a big part of it. And just managing through it. What's more important, a Test Championship or a P20 World Cup? So you've got to sort of find... Yeah, it's like a game of chess now, honestly. And the way now with franchise cricket, some guys now they go and play the IPL, then they want to take some time off international cricket, which is always going to be... That's going to get the juices flowing. We're not going down there.

32:18It's the world we live in, right? Not this week. Managing it all. And also you've got to have a depth of talent, right? You've got to have enough depth of talent. You feel that the depth is here, isn't it? Oh, there's talent. It's the same. You go to India, my gosh, I've never seen talent. It is breathtaking, the talent. This Suravanchi, this kid, this India, who's just got man of the match in his second Monday international or third Monday international the other day. We coached against him two seasons ago and he's 14 years old. We didn't even talk about him in the team talk. He's 14. Like, he walks out, strolls out to bat and we've got one of our international bowlers bowling.

33:01His first ball in IPL cricket. And we're just sitting there. I was just about to have my first cup of coffee for watch the first ball of the IPL. Hits it for six over cover. His first ball in IPL cricket. And we went. And then he got 30 off. Not much, he walked bottles off. Two games later, he gets the second fastest 100 in the history of IPL. And then we played him this year for Rajasthan Royals. We got 230. Before he could blink, the game was over. He got 90 off 30 pills. He's 15 years old. And there's talent. There's so much talent going around this depth of talent.

33:40Phil Tufnell: What's the reaction? They've just come over here and lost eight out of nine.

33:44Michael Vaughan: I think you've got to be... So I think India now, I think they're a World Cup team. So what are they planning for now is to win that. Next year is 50. So the T20s now for them is completely development because that's in two years' time. So they're trialling loads of different combinations. Look, Surikamayad is not even in the squad.

34:02Phil Tufnell: Did he let the supporters know, look, we're planning for this World Cup and the T20. I don't think they let that. Everything else is a bit incidental.

34:08Michael Vaughan: I think in India, they know that they're only going to... They want that bush ride down Marine Drive with the World Cup trophies. That's what they go for. But herein lies the question, because if you're Gwatham Gambier, he's the head coach of India, and we're looking at this, and my gosh, if they're not winning, they lose here. Guess who's under the pump? The head coach.

34:30Phil Tufnell: Yeah. So, therefore, it's a real balancing act. And that's what I'm saying. If you have different coaches... What is this? Gwatham Gambier. Is it Gwatham? We'll call him Gautam for years. Oh, Gautam. Is it Gautam? Gautam. Is it... Potato, potato? Neither, neither. Burby, darby? Is it then a coach's job nowadays, really, just to sort of try and sort that out and manage through it, and you don't really get a lot of time for coaching, almost? Well, the funny thing about head coaching, I've said this, when you become head coach, the greatest job in the world is assistant coach because you can actually coach.

35:09Michael Vaughan: Yeah. And you've got time. where you become head coach, you're overseeing, and it's a huge job. People look at, oh, yeah, head coach, but it's a really big job, and it's more management than anything else. But the coaching, when you actually get to coach and help people get better, I mean, I love that. Does the test coach go ahead of bats in terms of seniority, do you think? Mate, you have to ask the ECB. I don't know. I mean, again, that's where they have to marry it together really well. They're going to marry it together. I think they're in a mess. I don't think there's... I think leadership, you lead at the moment, but you've got to have succession planning.

35:50Michael Vaughan: You have to go, what if? What if this happens? What's going to happen? I just don't think England have kind of gone through that. What if Ben Stokes retired? Obviously, they've gone, oh, shit, we've no idea what to do. What if we get rid of Baz McClellan? They're not sure what they're going to do. That was a knee-jerk reaction after Trent Bridge. that they got rid of him. They didn't have anything else. And now they've probably gone for someone and that person's probably gone, no, not for me. And they're like, oh, shit.

36:17Phil Tufnell: What do we do now?

36:18Michael Vaughan: Yeah.

36:20Phil Tufnell: I've got some sympathy with Rob Key that it's a complicated business with IPL, the one-day team, the T20 team, the test team. It's quite complicated. Well, so is life, man. It is, yeah. That's your job to make sure

36:35Michael Vaughan: that your succession planning is in place. Absolutely. Absolutely, life's tough. But your job is to make sure that you've, you know, so if you've got a captain, captain the test team, you've got to kind of get in the back of your mind going, what happens if the captain gets a really bad injury? Who's going to take over? Yeah, who's your next one? Who's going to take over after that?

36:53Phil Tufnell: I think that's pretty straightforward. You know, we've got to have a contingency. If this captain, you have a vice captain or somebody else in the wings to take over. But if somebody retires and it just throws you a little bit. Yeah, but I don't think the retirement of Stokes is throwing it. I think they've responded to Vaughn. going Baz can't be the test coach or can't coach England and they've gone right he's gone and then they're thinking I said it in a different way you got the headline we all said it I'm just they've gone they've tried to go and there's now we're like we've got a serious starts against Pakistan pretty soon Joe Root is going to be captain is that right?

37:38Michael Vaughan: I don't think it's been officially announced yet.

37:40Phil Tufnell: But that's the whisper alright so there's another whisper that they could have an interim coach so we might have interim interims well you won't have an interim test captain will you he'll be appointed as captain but there'll be an interim coach maybe for a 6 month or 12 month period which tells you that they've not done their homework their recruitment well enough well I'd mildly disagree that if if they've tried individuals and they're not interested or doing something else or contracted or contracted

38:16Michael Vaughan: but isn't then that

38:18Phil Tufnell: you've got to find someone I'm sorry what I'm saying is who's going to be the interim

38:22Michael Vaughan: Dave this is the England Test Match team caretakers if the ECB can't go to caretakers if the ECB can't go to someone that they desperately want and go by the way that is what we want you for and what do you want? And that person goes, that's what I want. Right, deal, done. All right. You've got to go and get the right... Is he just simple? Is he just simple? Well, I don't know. But hold on, I'll tell you... It's very messy now. They've done interviews, haven't they? I'll tell you what is simple is that English cricket shouldn't be going into having a test series against... This is English cricket we're talking about.

38:51With an interim coach and an interim... Because otherwise, what's going on? Where's the forward thinking there? You know, otherwise you could have interim forever.

39:03Phil Tufnell: Maybe that's the way the game's going. Well, perhaps. The interim coach would be somebody who's already there, I would think. Well, Marcus Triscothic's been...

39:12Michael Vaughan: Yeah, but what's the point of that? Right. So here's the interim. Why can't he just be the coach with a view to potential game? I love JL's just kidding. It's all right. Go back to... That's a ramble on.

39:23Phil Tufnell: Come back to... Lee Carsley. No. Hang on. Was Michael Carrick the interim boss at Man United? Yes, he was. Caretaker. Caretaker. until the end of the season. Manchester United. Yes. Yeah. And then you've done really well. Well, that's after they sacked Hammering. He's done really well. He's done really well. And they've given him a permanent job. So maybe that's what they're going to try and do with Triscothic, then. There you go. So there's a bit of thinking. So why call it interim, then? Why isn't he just the coach? Yeah. Because he's interim. But anyway... I want to ask, Jell, when you were an Australia coach...

39:56Phil Tufnell: Were you interim? Would you... If you were to do the job again, Would you do it differently? Not really, no. All right. You think about when I came in, we had Sandpaper Gate. Australian cricket was absolutely on its knees and we were humbled. And you need leadership. And if you remember back then, after that we lost our chairman, our CEO, our high-performance manager, our captain, our vice-captain, our head coach and another couple, I think one or two other assistants maybe.

40:28Michael Vaughan: So that's a mess. So a mess. Yeah, that's actually messier than England. I'm thinking. Oh, my God. So that was a huge mess. I mean, it literally destroyed. I mean, we love, like in England, how much you love your football and cricket, but the football. Australians love the Australian test team. They could not believe it. And they do to this day. They could not believe what had happened. So we lost all that leadership. So someone had to come in and stand up. and luckily I had Tim Payne as well, absolute ripping bloke, really strong, bit of charisma about him, very good cricketer. So that was a play.

41:08And then we went through COVID. So my period of coaching Australia, you know, here I still see the Justin Langer, the intensity and the da-da-da. We had Sandpaper Gate. Then we went through COVID. No one wanted to be playing cricket. The whole world was scared. So there had to be some strong leadership. So would I do it different? No, I wouldn't because that was what was called for at that time.

41:30Phil Tufnell: And would you want to do the job again? Have you still got ambition? The national coaching job, Australian coaching job. I think when you've been there, I actually feel for Baz McCullum. It is a really, really tough job. And in the role, you know, and again, he'll do a great job. I've never heard anyone say a bad word about Baz McCullum. You know, he's a very strong... I still have this image of the first test of the Ashes last year. We were talked about it after the game cookie and England walked in. I know the test didn't go to plan, but I remember commentating that morning and England all walked across Optus together.

42:11It was like watching Braveheart. And I remember going, mate, they mean business here. And they walked in across the thing and I asked about that and they said, well, that's one of Baz's things. He sort of brings the boys together, strong leadership. The results haven't gone their way, but it's always... You talk about all head coaches are interim, really, aren't they? Yeah. You think about managers, think about it. They're all interim. They're all interim. Eventually they get...

42:34Michael Vaughan: You're like York City, man, if you're doing a good job. But we're all going to go at the end of the day.

42:39Phil Tufnell: You think, is there a cycle of four years, five years? Is that about it? Oh, who knows, mate? It's like CEOs. It just depends on what... John Buchanan was a great coach. I was going to say, who's your great coach? I'm going back to Bobby Simpson, who I remember. Oh, Simo's tough. He made me look like Booth Lehman. He's a great... He'd be a good shot. Mate, tough. So, Bob Simpson, he taught us all about fielding. He was hard and technique. I mean, you can't use the word technique anymore. Played with Bob Simpson. But Bob Simpson, he was brilliant. John Buchanan as well. I know Warnie didn't like him much, but he was...

43:14Middlesex got rid of him after a year.

43:16Michael Vaughan: Were you with John Buchanan, Phil? Yeah, it was you. Were you there? Yeah. Another one covered.

43:21Phil Tufnell: Yeah, got rid of him. But he was a great... John Buchanan was a great coach. Is that right? John Buchanan used to put little notes under your doors. I thought it was Mungbeen. I think he used to put under the opposition doors, so they thought they knew what we were talking about. He's pretty bright, John Buchanan, and a great vision. And the other thing about it, imagine coaching that team. Warnie and McGrath and Gillian, the great players, the way he kept it together. And he was like the battering boy, but he was a talker, getting people to buy into. I remember John Buchanan walking in the first, second test match, had his moustache, had his clipboard, and we'd go, and we'd just won a famous test in Hobart.

44:03And he walks into the change, and it's interesting with Baz Ball, right? So he walks into the change room. He goes, right, I was, you know, what do you want to be remembered as, the invincibles or the greatest? Because you could win every test match. I remember Warnie sitting there in the Wacker change room going, cigarette going, who is this clown? and there's Mark Waugh with his sweatbands brushing his hair. He's going, who the fuck is this John Buchanan? But he said, you guys have got so much talent in this room, we can win every test match. And we ended up winning 16 straight test matches twice.

44:35So he had this vision and he was able to just bring it all together, like he was bringing it all together. And he didn't care that, I mean, probably deep down, he didn't like that Warnie would bag him, but imagine trying to manage those egos. And he did it really well.

44:51Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. You mentioned Baz Ball over the course of four and a half years, the Baz Ball ride. What did you make of that? The Aussie team likes to play aggressive. The reason I said it's significant, that John Buchanan was saying, what are you going to be remembered as? Like looking for a title? And Steve Waugh said, no, no, we'll let the media call it. And Baz is a bit the same. Baz didn't come and say, we're going to play Baz Ball, did he? That was a name given to them by the media in the end of the day. Andrew Miller. Whoever decides to write Baz Ball. Yeah.

45:27And he's got to live with that because, you know, at the start, forget Baz Ball for a minute, Vaughn. What I am nervous about, watching the Ashes last year, is the deterioration in batting technique. And I see it. There are a lot of batters now. And I'm of the view now in short-form cricket, the best ball. We saw it just two nights ago. you bowl good length. I say, if you can be brave enough, we all play these tricks now, you play slower balls and wide Yorkers and Yorkers. If you're bold enough as a bowler, to bowl good length, even in T20 now, you're going to expose batters because there's no footwork and we see it.

46:02So forget about the names of how it's played. I'm more worried about that in world cricket, that players just think we're going to go and tee off. Nothing to do with basball, more to do with how the game's progressing through T20 cricket. And you're just seeing the stand wide. They don't move their feet. We talked a lot about it during the Ashes. And I'm more worried about that than any title for how the game's been.

46:28Michael Vaughan: So this new modern, I mean, I remember Gucci used to have his bat up, didn't he, back in the day. But it's a very modern way, isn't it? Like baseball. It's only Greg because he was so tall. It's like Harry Brookway. Yes, the wrist and a fast change. Snap. Do you see that when you're coaching now? Do you see players going more towards that than the old days of games? Yeah, well, everyone does. So, Vaughan, I remember my last game of cricket. We played the Champions League game in India and two kids, Phil Hughes and Steve Smith, walk out to bat. It happened to be that Somerset were playing New South Wales in my last game of cricket.

47:02And these guys are holding the ball like baseball. I went, what's going on? Like, Phil Hughes is holding the bat up here and this Steve Smith, and these are the 18-year-old kids, right, from Australia. I'm going, what is going on? And they just belted them. And I then started coaching and I did this study, if you like. The top 20 batters in Australian cricket history up to then, in terms of runs, and in Sheffield Shield cricket, at the time of release, we're talking about Gary Sober's ball, every single one of the top 20 batters had their bat on the ground. At release. The balls were about to release.

47:42I've got the thing in it. Every single one, at the time of release, had their bat on the ground. And then you think about Gary, you think about Viv Richards, you think about Brian Lara at the time, Senga Kura at the last moment, every single had their bat on the ground. So now you see the boys. Looking through it, because he's our batting guru.

47:59Michael Vaughan: You wouldn't know what he is in the... And the thing is, if you look at this, right, so you have your bat there tapping like, no, no, put it down, Kat. That's the old style of doing it, right? And then you just pick up the bat as, you know, I always think as your feet, you see the ball, your feet move, and you pick up the bat, every one of them. When am I hitting it? When it goes... No, you're not hitting it because there's no ball yet. Well, it will. We're about to release it. As you see it. I'm running. Then I've got to go like that and then hit it. You just watch. You watch. Now, throw the ball.

48:27Oh, God. That fucking nip back. That nip back. That was a jaffa. That nip back. That nip back. That's a fucking... What about a middle six days? And that's why every time he walked in, I had to go, oh, Christ, let's get our whites on right away. I think you're late. I think you're late on it. Well this will bounce a bit more hold on no what just wait no so so I'm not so usually Yeah, how did you do it tough when the balls whether someone proper do it for God's sake Usually you sort of go like that. Yeah, lovely lovely. Yeah, that was nice But you're saying side edge back in the day back in the day you'd go down

49:14Laura had his bat up in the air, hadn't he? No, no, but you watch it. The last minute he tapped, he'd go, and tap, and Ponting's the same. Tap, Sangakara, their last moment, they tap, and then they come up. They don't know. I avoided it. All of them. Viv Richards. Viv Richards used to sit with his bat on there. Desmond Haynes a little bit stood up, but Gordon Greenidge had the bat on the ground, right? Radman, all of them, and even Darren Lehman, you watch him at the back of the Allen border, back in the day, they came up at the last minute, But every single one, the ball is just about to release, the top 20, and then over time it's changed.

49:49So that's what we see now. But what I'd say now is that as long as you're loose, as long as you've got – I heard a great thing at the British Open the other day. I tried it at golf yesterday. Anna Sorensen, is that her name? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she said the greatest advice I've ever got in golf was to have soft elbows. And it's the same in batting. So if you're batting, like the reason when you have your bat down and you relax, Look how relaxed your arms are now what I see a lot of guys doing now they stand up if you're squeezing Got the cameras on here So as long if you're a lot of guys now like if they're squeezing hard you can't move but back then It was so relaxed and I don't care.

50:28Now see what Steve Smith or Amler But I even you cookie you'd be sort of you'd get that sort of really loose, but as soon as I get tight. It's just like

50:38Michael Vaughan: They're kind of going. But you were really loose. Just go back to your... That's what I remember. You have the looser. So bad as used to be.

50:45Phil Tufnell: That's right. Looser is like that. That's my point. So there, and then just as the ball has gone there, and then that's just coming up naturally. But now it's all... Everyone's holding the ball.

50:55Michael Vaughan: Do you see... I mean, I've been to Australia now the last eight or nine years. And I'm not... Olive Pigs looks like a player that's going to come through. Connelly looks like a player. Well, I'm thinking back in the 90s. That's how you want to have your arms, mate. You want to have them as loose as possible. And then you can do all that. And that's where the wrists come in, then. And your feet move. That's where the wrists... You can't snap your wrists when you're like that. So what happened? As I go back to boxing, we're talking about it. If you think about any great athlete, right, and it's the great batters still today, when do you see Usain Bolt run like that?

51:30Or a great boxer box like this? It's all loose, like their loose body. A great golfer. And my very first coach told me, have a loose forearm. So have that nice and soft. And then if you've got a loose forearm, you've got a loose shoulder, you've got a loose face, and then your feet can dance. If you're holding, I mean, I can't imagine any of us are good dancers. You're probably a good dancer. You go a few tequilas and you're dancing. And we're horrible dad dancers. But we're relaxing. That's right. You can dance. No, you didn't. I don't think you did. Bad dancing? You did.

52:03Michael Vaughan: I did. I did well. You must have relaxed. Just up, so I was mentioning the Aussies, like the youngsters coming through. I mean, you go through the 90s. Kirtley Ambrose, Courtney Wolfe, sorry, Michael. Kirtley Ambrose, Courtney Wolfe. No, bowling. Beautiful. Snap. All of them. If you think about how much you had to do to get in that Aussie team, you know, Darren Lehman didn't play a great deal. I have him right up there with Martin Love, Stevie Nuttos. Stuart Law. He played one test. Ben? You're looking at the amount of talent that didn't get to play that much for australia where is that depth now because i i don't see it in australia i think where is it and why is it that you're not producing that that kind of bulk of batters and that's why we've sorry that's why we were so angry that we lost the bloody ashes because we saw your second team there yeah phil you finished eighth in strictly i was robbed You finished eight.

52:54Michael Vaughan: Really? Is that quarter-finally, eight? Eight. What year is it? Ninth. Mid-table.

53:01Phil Tufnell: That was better. When you kick your legs up. I was better. Get it back on. Just throw it down. Go on. Sorry, no, it's interesting. Where's all the... I've just shown you my back. No, he was loose. Go on. What was the song? Right, well, that's a... That's a soulcer. How loose you are. Look, relax. That's a butt-fog and then... And then... And then... And that was... It was like a karate kick. You've got the face like you're kicking some. It's going to be like... I thought it's all... That's the salsa basic, that is. You see, it's got to be there. Yeah, look, see, and relax just loosely. You'll run up, you'll relax, won't you?

53:35The batter's tougher.

53:37Michael Vaughan: Where's all your... Where are all your batters? And why isn't that bulk coming through? Honest opinion, I go back to the same thing. I'm really nervous about... You can't use the word batting technique anymore. You can't use it. I said something after the Ashes. You can't use the word discipline or technique. It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Oh, no, we can't use those words. Batting technique, you cannot survive, and it's getting harder. Even in – everyone says, I'm just going to play franchise cricket. You've got to be the best of them. If you just play franchise, it's so fickle, and it's such a hard game.

54:11And I worry about it. I see some boys – I was over here with London Spirit last year, really enjoyed it, and it's no different in this country. What I see in India is they still put so much empathy. Watching Indians bat, and honestly, we talk about Suravanchi, no one's as talented as that age, but I see the batting technique of Indian batters is elite, and they still talk about it. In Australia and England, it's like you can't talk about that. Just let them play. But if you can't play, unless you've got good footwork pattern, you watch the ball.

54:44Michael Vaughan: Do you know what really wants to be, and I hear it all the time, you go, oh, you've just got to bat yourself. What does that mean? You can only back yourself if you've got a foundation of a technique behind it. You have to have your foundation, then you can back yourself. And I'll tell you what's shown that up. Keeper standing up to the stumps. Alex Carey, brilliant. He was almost the player of the series. Keeper standing up to the stumps and Boulders now just hitting to blow that pad off. Blundell. Yeah.

55:10Phil Tufnell: Michael Neisser, Scott Bolland, not rapid, not going to knock your head off, but they're going to be top of off stump with a keeper up to the stumps. I don't know if you remember it, Kenny Muleman. So Kenny Muleman played one test for Australia, and he was my first batting coach who told me about this. WA, wasn't he? Yeah, WA. And I was only telling Tawanda yesterday in the nets. We had someone on the bowling machine. He used to tell me, if you practice on the bowling machine, if you play off the front foot, you must have it as slow as possible. On the back foot, you want it fast so you can move.

55:38But on the front foot, you have it as slow as possible. And I'd be amazed if Gucci wouldn't say something. He said, because if it's slow, you've got to move your feet And you've got to have perfect batting technique, or sorry, form, technique, body position, whatever you want. And when we talk about Michael Neeser and Boland, if you haven't got a foundation of footwork, you're dead. You cannot survive. So now guys, and I think talking about the guys coming through from England who are averaging 33 or in first-class cricket, and the excuse, oh, you're the only little medium paces. Yeah, but if you move your feet, they should never get you out, right?

56:16Underway, isn't it? You find a way. And so I think about Cooper Connolly and Oliver Peake, right, which blew me well. I found this the other day. And they're great kids. They're all great kids. I love this. They're great kids, right? But until about three months ago, Cooper Connolly had never had a professional hundred. And he's played all three forms for Australia. Great kid, beautiful bat swing, you know, working hard, works with Ricky Ponting in the Punjab. Oliver Peake, my understanding, he's never made a professional hundred. And he's playing for Australia now. So we're sort of... And it used to make me laugh when I come and play county cricket.

56:54I loved county cricket. It was addictive. And there's no question that county cricket helped me become a good player to a better player because you play all the time and you're in different conditions. I was 27 when I come to Middlesex. Elevated my game internationally. No question. But I used to come to England and say, oh, see, you know, the Australians have got this youth policy and you always pick your young players. I go, no, no, it's bullshit. They're young. but Ponting had 10 first class hundreds. In a season where he only played 10 games, he was young, he was our best player, Michael Clarke.

57:24He was, yeah, he was only 20, 19, but he was the best player. Steve Smith comes in, he's got six first class hundreds. Six first classes, like having 36 first class hundreds over here, but they're kids. They were just gun young players, but they had runs under their belt, right, Vaughan? And that's what worries me. You elevate people to international cricket and say, You can't make it make him in first-class cricket and you think you're gonna make it an international cricket What's gone out of the game though isn't it is like you talk about Indian technique a lot of those coaches in India will tell The batter yeah, that's when this is what you have to do to improve your technique in our game And maybe it's the same in Australia I don't know the coaching setup that doesn't happen anymore because the player

58:09Michael Vaughan: What do you think what do you think well actually? You don't know what you don't know. The idea of the coach, and this is my thing about coaching, anyone can be a good dogsticker, not like a dogstick, but anyone can be a good dogsticker, anyone can be a good bloke. For me, the real coach makes a difference to the player, improves the player, but there might be a time where he says something really unpopular to that player. It might be unpleasant. Unpleasant, but the coach might get it wrong to bat it. He might make a bat a worse for a little bit, and then that player instantly hates that coach, and he's got what I've seen that's him he's done he's out of the system because he's tried to step up a glass I think you need to do this and that's gone but you look at the Indian technique maybe it's the culture Go to the Oval Madan in Mumbai and you go there in the morning there will be hundreds of kids lined up against the wall with the ball and the foot will be placed next to the ball the head position will be over that front knee the hands will be high and they'll just hit balls like that they'll be drilled into them technique, technique and I know the game has changed I know everything does change, right?

59:11But there has to be some element of that in coaching. And that's my bit about coaching. I think if you... No, it doesn't. You have to sit there and make a difference to that player. Look at that player and go, do you know what? I turned in from averaging 35 in first-class cricket to 40. I've improved. And if I was getting in the coaching game, that's what I would try and do. It's just gone from 10 to 1 to 6 to 4.

59:32Phil Tufnell: What he's saying... What Cook is saying is the modern way. that's the modern way of the MCC coaching manual. Because you need a defence, you need a technique, you need a solid defence before you can attack. So you come back to boxing. It's a great contest. Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes, any of them, they're on the ropes. You've got to cover up and wait your time to come out and now it's mine I'm going to throw for you. And so we have been guilty of playing one-dimensional test match cricket and it's paid the price. You've got to soak it up. And coming back to the elephants, to our lot, Crystal Palace.

1:00:15Phil Tufnell: Manchester. Super giants, thank you. So tactically, looking at Old Trafford, if this is our venue and their attack is a world-class Test Match attack, push that boundary as far back as you can at Old Trafford and have a go at 86 now. You ain't going to do it against this lot. Push it right back until health and safety comes and say, whoa, whoa, you've got to bring it in. Because back in the day, we used to play on the whole surface. There never used to be a role. What about Manchester now? Old Trafford with the... No, it's a big ground pack. But it's also how they've changed the... We used to play sideways.

1:00:56Journey run. It's interesting to watch.

1:00:58Phil Tufnell: Was that your idea, Dave? No, no, nothing to do with me. But I honestly think, you're right, the thing about coaching is you've got to help people get better. It's simple. It's as simple as that. And if you don't, you're not doing your job. And it can be, but you build relationships and you've got to treat everyone differently, right? I'm not saying come in day one and go, by the way, X. Who do you go with a player who dismisses and, oh, that's the way I play? Whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, so I'll preface this by saying my first day as a coach, and this was the greatest lesson I've learned in coaching, I'd gone from playing for Somerset, Punter got me into the Aussie team as a batting coach.

1:01:36I get this, yeah. And we're at New Zealand, first test, and a kid called Steve Smith, who's then 12th man, goes, oh, JL, can we go and have a hit in the nets? I said, yeah, let's go and have a hit. Took him over to the Wellington nets, bowling machine. And I watched this kid bat for an hour, and I walked back to Ponting and Tim Nielsen said, if this guy ever plays for Australia, I'm not here. He can't bat. Because he would do it differently. Like I'd say, what I learned to become a good coach, it's not just how you did it. You've got to sum up everyone's different, right? So do they say it? What if they say that's how I do it?

1:02:16Well, that's okay. But you know with your brain that if you keep doing it, you're not going to have a career, mate. But Steve Smith, so I'd say when I played, you play a cover drive and my coach, you go, and he'd go and smack him through there along the ground. or I'd say play a pull shot and I was always taught keep your head still and then move he was going and hitting him miles but I said the great lesson as the coach was just because he didn't do it how I did it everyone does it differently and that's the art of coaching you still have the basics you still get it and you're still looking to help them but and the other thing I've learned Would I do anything different as a coach?

1:03:01So you always develop, right? And I say, I never say, I never liked to say, I wasn't a great captain. I had a lot of attributes you'd think on paper made me a good captain, but I always used to think as a young person when I went to Middlesex, I was only 26 years old or whatever. Slightly intense. Yeah, well, I was, but I've been serious since I was a little kid, right? But the thing was that what I learned was I thought everyone had to be like me, drink diet coke do push-ups fucking hit a million balls analyze everything and do that and i thought that's what you had to do to be a good player right but then i become a dad and the greatest lesson in leadership for me i've got four daughters and they're all growing and they're all so different they are same place same upbringing they are so different so if my daughters are all different all my players are going to be different so you treat everyone differently and you try but as long as you have in your mind if i'm going into every session every day looking to help them get better one way or the other, whether it's with their feet or their hands or their family or whatever, everything will be alright.

1:04:01That's the art of coaching.

1:04:04Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Joe, we get onto a stage of you having to pick your greatest ever 11 that you've played with. You've played more. So players that you've played with, Somerset, Aussie, You've got to pick your best. Just put the Aussie side down. Who's got the best side so far? Sean Uda. Sean Uda, hell of a team. Malcolm Marshall. Before we get to that, Gerald, presuming you're not going to be England's Test match coach, Australia have not won here since 2001. Australia will produce that tactic, won't they? Boland, Kerry stood up. Nisa, Kerry stood up. As well as obviously...

1:04:43Michael Vaughan: Over here? Yeah. Yeah, I'd say so. It worked well last time. I think they'll – well, think about Bolander, Nisa. You think about Cummins. You think about Hazelwood. Why are they so great? Because they hit the same spot every ball. And they're going to expose techniques. So, yeah, I think that'll happen, yeah. I think that'll happen. And New Zealand did it. It'll be England's batter's job to find an answer for that. Yep. Right, let's go. Hayden. Number one and two, Hayden. Hey, Doss. This is so easy. Doss. There must be. Doss. three ponting

1:05:20Rick hey just Rick Ricky yeah awful Lara played with him I'll play just play with him I've played I know I know so I play with them a Damien Martin oh what is he all right there he's a punch comes under the radar No, I don't want to. He's a bit poor. He isn't. Yeah, he's better. He's better. He's better. What, better than Mark? Better than Mark? Better than junior? I'm having both of them. Oh, OK, mate. Junior? Junior? Junior? Junior. They're just going to be all bloody Aussies, aren't they? Well, I heard some of that. I mean... Oh, hang on, hang on, hang on. Yeah, there you go. Oh, the CD. There you go.

1:05:58Phil Tufnell: Did you play with Triscothic? Yes. Oh, decent. But at Middlesex, who else at Middlesex? Two? Desi Hape, you didn't play with Desi, did you? Oh, no. Trez there, I love Trez. Who's the middle sex player? Oh, am I going Mart... No, hang on. Junior's out, Junior's out, sorry. Fuck, Junior's out. I've gone! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! Ring him up. Only because it had to be Marto...

1:06:24Michael Vaughan: I've got his number. Ring him up. In actual fact, I think we will ring him up. No, he's not fucking ringing. He's too late, isn't he? He's not. Let's ring him here. Hold on. Hang on. Hang on. No, you speak to him. You're the selector. No, no, no. He's got to speak to him. I'll speak to him. No, he's going to speak to him. You speak to him. See if he answers. Oh, toughest, please. Just speak to him. What time is it? It should be... It's all right. It's about nine o 'clock at night. He'll be doing his horses. Hello. Junior, how are you? What's going on? We're good. We're just filming our show. We've got JL on.

1:06:58Michael Vaughan: He's got a little bit of news for you. I'll just pass him on. JL? I wasn't sure whether I had to pick the best 11. I wasn't sure whether to go for Mardo or yourself.

1:07:11So I need to be, I'm phoning a friend here. Should I go for Mardo or you? Mate, that's just a silly question. Best what? That I played with.

1:07:24Michael Vaughan: Oh, right. Yeah, okay. Number four. Number four, Juve. Mardo, are you backing yourself in or is Mardo in? No, because I've played with Mardo since I was five years old. That's all. Well, I mean, how many wickets and catches did he get?

1:07:40Got him covered there, surely. Yeah, that's a good point. It's got to be the all-round package. I can see he's gone here. He's gone. What a show. Yeah. Perfect. All right. Cheers, James.

1:07:52Michael Vaughan: We're in a beautiful studio in Manchester. Junior, are you in for the test job for England? They need a new coach. Oh, yeah. Who's getting that? Come on, who's getting it? What's the inside male? Well, we thought JL might have a go, but he's ruled himself. His favourite last week. What about you, Cookie? You big girl. I don't know. He's got a weave of team. You know, he's on, Cookie's on, John. Cookie's just talking about batting technique, and he's gone up to two to one.

1:08:20Phil Tufnell: I'm thinking of going for Nick June, but I'm 80. You what? I'm 80. Did you know that Bumble played with Bradman? No, I didn't. Oh, no, sorry, it's Gary Sobers. I thought he said Bradman. Sorry, yeah. Yeah, mate, he's going good though, Bumble. He is, mate. Look at him, looks a treat. It's all the organic potatoes and the apples. He's living in the best part of the world, up in York. Yeah, yeah, top man. He's a great man, Drew. Put him in junior. Junior's in, you're in. Junior's in, you're in four. Junior's number four. There you go, Junior in. I'm coaching the poms. And the catch-in. I'm coaching the poms.

1:08:55See you, mate. See you, Junior. I'm coaching the poms. See you, mate. I'm coaching the poms. Junior, okay, here's one for you. Number five. Yeah, come on. Alan Borda.

1:09:07Michael Vaughan: Oh, yeah, AB. AB, it was his birthday yesterday. Yeah, it was, yeah. Was that a test match? Yeah, he was my first captain. Steve Waugh. Steve Waugh, six. This is a good team. Imagine those two fighting together. Imagine Ponting, Borda and Steve Waugh. Oh, Jesus. Gilly, I presume, at seven, is he? No-brainer. Oh, yeah. Gilly. Warney. Warney. Pigeon. Is there a West Indies quick that gets in there? What about Graham Rose from Somerset? Rose, oh bless you.

1:09:38Phil Tufnell: Er, McGrath. Caddy. Where's McGrath? What number? Eleven. What number McGrath? Eleven? Caddy got your little... Yeah, but he's not getting it. He's a gun. He was a good baller. That's a good baller. He was a good baller. I was thinking about it. Is he going to be better? Is he better than Gillespie? Gillespie. He's got double hundred. Gillespie's done well. I was out there. Right, are you nine or ten? Gillespie, nine. Got double hundred. You need another single. Is there someone else? Gilly finished up Pakistan coach. You give me all. Overseas, overseas WA, Ujah. Didn't have them, did I? Alphonso Thomas.

1:10:23Michael Vaughan: Apparently you did play with Lyra. Huh? You did play with Lyra in what? in a charity match you play with

1:10:43Michael Vaughan: overseas players in big

1:10:49calico lee oh

1:10:56johnson in that attack yeah left i miss johnson yeah yeah he could bet yeah okay

1:11:05Michael Vaughan: that's a good thing i think that he's that Captain. Oh, that's it. Oh, out of respect, AB. Yeah, that guy. AB. He's the godfather, isn't he? Yeah, he's... Trez. Trez has done well. Trez. Warren is happy that Steve's not captain.

1:11:22Phil Tufnell: He don't want Steve captain, does he? But he's happy with AB. Hold on. McGrath? What, you'd rather have Gillespie than Lee? Gillespie? Gillespie when he was... When he was firing. No, Gillespie was brilliant. For those two or three years. Do you want to ring Brett Lee and tell him he... He'll be fine.

1:11:40Michael Vaughan: Right, Billy and Dave, sit down. Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. JL, we finish the show. I need to meet them next to each other. With a couple of community questions that come in. OK. There's one or two here that have come in. The first one is, how often do you get asked about kicking over the bin? Oh. It's a classic right so would you kick it again with the in that circumstance definitely Did it hurt? Was it one of those? No no see what happened right? You guys remember it so Yeah we do. Yeah so we did the documentary so all this stuff people say oh JL is you know serious yeah middle seat serious you only get little snippets right so people see it on the telly But if you remember, nine down, Jack Leach walks in and you still need 78 to win.

1:12:37Yeah, I'd be pissed off. But I remember saying, boys, don't relax till Stokes is out. Everyone's going, yeah, yeah. Anyway, we get down, get down. And then Bumble, I know you're 80 and you played with Bradman, but can you just hold this? Just ready? Ready? No, you need two hands. All right. All right. I'll do it one more time to show you the order. This is not a fluke. So simple. Actually, put your hands together. Close your eyes. Put your hands together and open your hands a bit. Ready? Close your eyes. Yeah, right? It's easy. Who's that? Not that one. We need three runs to get. They throw it to Lion.

1:13:20You throw it to me, Bumble, and he gives it that. I'm not throwing Lion. Yeah, throw me your ball. And Nathan Lion, who's got beautiful hands, beautiful field. It's game over and we're all up. Bring us the stomps.

1:13:32Phil Tufnell: I'll do it here. Leave the stomps. Leave the stomps. This way, righto.

1:13:36Michael Vaughan: Get him in front.

1:13:38Phil Tufnell: Nathan Lyon here. He's here. He's here. Nathan Lyon. And it comes this slow and he fucking drops it. What was what? Where's the fucking bin? Give me a bin now.

1:13:57Of course I'd kick the bin again. But then you know what happened next? Go on. Because I said to the producers, oh, you've got to take that bit out. You've got to take that bit out because you're allowed to. And I said, yeah, but you see what you did next? I said, what do you mean what I did next? Lion, look, I lost the tether. He goes, you picked up all the rubbish. I felt so bad straight. I'm picking up all the rubbish still with two runs to get. So would I kick the bin again? I reckon I would, yeah. I reckon most of us would, yeah. But we all would. Kick it harder. Yeah, I'm right. Kick it up later.

1:14:28Were you there? Kick near some later. And then there was the DRS.

1:14:32Michael Vaughan: Oh, yeah. Because you'd burnt one the previous over. Oh, what a bad burn. Piece about that far outside leg. That was a bad burn, yeah. Right, next question. You met Sir Alex Ferguson for lunch in 2019. What did he teach you about leadership? So we had that, kick the bin, lose the test match. we go to come here to old trafford the day before old trafford forney you organized lunch for us one of the greatest three and i so this is true no one knows this we had our last session before the test to try and win back the ashes i rang the assistants i said i'm not coming i didn't go to training because i had an extra two hours with alex ferguson drinking a bit of red i didn't drink red i thought i better behave but he was drinking a few reds but it was so the first thing's alex Ferguson told me we walked in within a minute in the foyer of the little Italian restaurant he said truth works son I said what I said this is my next tattoo always tell the truth always tell the truth you never go wrong so I said okay first thing second thing he taught me about leadership which is the most powerful thing I've learned really about leadership he said when we used to lose I used to go in my office and I used to ask myself a simple question what could I have done differently and I thought about he said because what might you lose and we see it every day of our lives he should have done that he should have done that he should have done that he should have she should have done that shit you forget to ask what you should have done and as the leader you gotta take responsibility for it so that was an unbelievable bit of advice so um so from that point of view and that was just one of the great afternoons of my life and then we went on and we won the test match you know famous test match and that's why I'm so pumped to be back with the Manchester Super Giants back at Old Trafford and being in those change rooms so I went from the worst day of my whole cricket life Ben Stokes to two or six of the best days of my cricket life were here at Old Trafford so that's why as it turned out I'm pumped to be back here.

1:16:40Just as Well, the first thing he didn't say to you was, the Carbonara's good.

1:16:48Phil Tufnell: The Carbonara and the Carbonara, that's right, yeah. Can I just come in? Listening to our podcast here, when's this going out? This week. Rob Key might be watching this. You might be getting a phone call.

1:17:04Michael Vaughan: It's a different game, isn't it? That's the last question, actually, from Mr R Key. It's the right key. He says, can you go into your crystal ball and who do you think will be England's next test coach? Yeah, I don't know. I heard you say the other night, an English coach. I think I heard you say that. Yeah, I heard you say that. I think that's a really important element. You're going to have a real passion for it. That's what I loved about coaching Australia. I coach Western Australia and we were in a real mess then as well. So coaching Western, but I'm Western Australian. So I had that absolute passion for turning it, making a difference.

1:17:44And West Australian cricket was a great project and I love Western Australia. And then I never thought I'd leave that job actually because I was so, in my, talking about Alex Ferguson, in my office in West Australia, I had the Alex Ferguson book facing me. So I'd just sit on my desk in my office and I wanted to be at Alex Ferguson, be at Old Trafford for a long time, West Australia, I'm home. and then and the other book I had which faced the other way this is true story Alex Ferguson to keep me that's the the light side the outside and the other one which is a great book called The No Arse Soul Rule there's a little manual a little bit and it's called The No Arse Soul Rule and it is a great book so anyone who came into my office realised we did not have arse souls around here I believe you get great characters you get great people it's not just about people it's about getting the right people you get them and everything will be alright So I did that and then coached Australia at Sandpaper Gate.

1:18:41It was like, I'm leaving my dream job. I'm home with my family. We're winning. We're scorching. We're winning everything. West Australian cricket's going great. I'm home every day. I sleep in my own bed. I sleep in my family. And then I went to the Australian job because of Sandpaper Gate. I thought, oh, I've got to, like, we need to sort this out. So there was real passion to it, right? So that's why it was sad how it finished. So there's passion to it. I think, who will coach England? I've got no idea, mate. I've got no idea. They're going to have to work really well with Baz. And, you know, they're going to be really clear in their vision.

1:19:16Great leaders, you've got to be really clear in your vision, what you stand for, and then you go forward from there.

1:19:21Phil Tufnell: You can change them odds, ease odds on. And I just wonder, if you did get the job, hypothetically, could you then have an up-and-coming young England coach alongside you number two were learning from you who would eventually maybe move into that job you look at trez i mean they talk at the moment about trez and i don't know what trez is on his uh journey but i know he's passionate about english cricket and uh he's worked with baz for the last little bit i'm not sure if his name even gets mentioned i've got no idea but he's not even on the on the odds not even on the list so i think then we talked about it before succession planning You have to.

1:20:03You have to. You've always got it. Richard Dawson, they tell me he's a ripper. They tell me he's a great person. He is. Jonathan Trott, I don't know. I played against him. I think we played against him. He's been coaching for a long time. I'm sure there's some really good coaches around. So there's lots of good people. He's got to get the right people. And again, I say it about Manchester now. We've got brilliant people involved, and that makes life a lot easier. you get the right people in your camp and things usually work out pretty good.

1:20:36Michael Vaughan: JL, brilliant. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Very good. No worries. You sorted out the mess of WA, sorted out the mess of Australia. I'd keep your phone on this week. Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant, mate. Well done. Thanks, guys. Thanks, mate.

1:20:56This has been a Global and the Overlap production.

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