Lalit Modi Exclusive: The IPL, “Test Cricket is Dying” & The Hundred Will Fail!

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0:10Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. And whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. Read, watch and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, reporters on the ground with all the big teams, and the legendary Football Weekly podcast, The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more.

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1:33Wow. Invoices that chase themselves? Even better. Books that automate? That's a big one. And I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No spreadsheet in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply. What are we doing today, Michael? Well, I'll tell you where we are. We're in Belgravia, just round the corner from the Kings residence, actually. We are going to have a chat with, you could argue, the guy that changed cricket forever, Lallit Modi. Created the IPL, the Indian Premier League. This is his pad, nice front door.

2:15It's a big one. Let's get in there. Hey! Ah, Lallit! How are you, my friend? Nice to see you. You've got a nice house here. Thank you for coming. Your door's not quite big enough. Well, next time I'll make a point. I see you've got all your cars lined up outside. This is beautiful. You've got an electric bike. I've got some electric bikes. Yeah? Yes. I can see you on one of these around London. Well, actually, you know, let me tell you, I haven't written one of them yet. Thanks for having us. My pleasure. My pleasure. What's your crystal ball saying about the 100? It'll die in three years. completely die die die completely it'll be finished it won't be there somebody's going to shoot me for saying this first time i'm saying this let the ipl teams all test cricket teams all right so jacob bethel from england you're predicting by then he could be on 16 million a year for two months you made the fundamental mistake of calling it the hundreds because you don't want to copy lalith modi by the way did you know i offered them two billion dollars for it They turned it down because it was me.

3:24You can't milk something that is not milkable guys I mean you can't go and milk a cow but you can't milk the bloody thing. It's running out of juice. It's getting old. I Can tell you now that kid is going to go out there and be the new face of Indian cricket in the future

3:47Are you only good at pool? I didn't expect this guys This guy's gonna kick my ass right here. Look, India, mercy's in love. Oh no, no, no, don't do that to me. Come on, scratch. Look, you might have got us in the semi-final, but I'm gonna get you on the full table. That you definitely will. No, I didn't. No, that was poor. Aw, lucky. Have you always been lucky in your life? Always lucky. Yeah? Yes. Alright, I'm gonna go for a trick shot. Try and bounce it off there. Flick off the yellow and flick the paw paw. Oh no, I missed it. Tell us about everything in this room Lala, I noticed a few bats.

4:26This room is basically a shrine for the IPL and for the crickets. But I decided this is my pool room, this is my haven. I spent a lot of time here. And all this memorabilia, I have so much memorabilia in storage, but these are some of my favourite pieces. You know when I was a child and I was growing up, my father would never buy me a Ferrari. Okay, but now you know it's too fast you'll kill yourself So and always wanted a Ferrari so I was gifted one for my 40th birthday But then what I did it who gives you a Ferrari my brother-in-law But now I make it a point that every birthday of my son from the age of 21.

5:08I give him one Well, we have one of them. He has one of the largest connection the Ferrari the 32 now He's going to know them so He's quite a lucky chap. He's a lucky chap just because I couldn't get one What about for someone like me that, you know, an old washed up cricketer? Any Ferraris going for me? Well, let's see. I like this, though. How have you got hold of this? Because this in Indian cricket history, I go to obviously India to work for Crickbuzz a lot. And I always wind them up about November 2023, where Australia did a job on the Indian theme in Ahmedabad. And this is the winner's medal.

5:44This is the winner's medal. I can't name the gentleman on the player who gave it to me, but he started at the IPL, his career, and he thanked me for it. He didn't know what to give me, so he gave me his medal as an appreciation. He and his wife and his children came down and said, I want to give you something special, and I got that from him. I'm guessing. Can I guess? I won't admit it. Is he an all-rounder? I won't admit anything, it'll give it away. Did he play a switch kit or two? I won't admit anything. But you've also got the runners up medal as well. Yes, I do. Alright, you're in. Let me have one more shot, I want to get at least one in.

6:28Oh man, I guess we win. Indira of one once again. Come on, let's have a little stroll through here Lalit. Now I'm intrigued by this. Tell me all about this. These are spiced oils. These are chili oils from level one, which is for my grandson. It says dedicated to Sai, who's a two-year-old. So I've dedicated the oils to different people in my life. And we go for a global launch in Hamburg on the 14th of April. And it's a single use. Chili has always been a very important part of my life. And I used to always go to restaurants and never find the right chili. And then I developed something called the naga ghost, which is the very spicy one That's the number six and that comes from India and so And you yep.

7:17Yeah, are you happy with that piece of art? I'm happy with that piece of art. You sure? Yeah I'm taking that one a little bit of spice. Look at this now. I'll start with the bottom Manchester United What's up my kids favorite football team while they were growing up in India was man you? Have you ever thought about buying them? You know, I never thought that I looked at so many of the football clubs And I don't think there's a model that exists there. No Only players like you make the money there. The owners make no money. What about what about Sheffield Wednesday? I mean they need to buy it. They need a buyer.

7:51I've been sent down here purely for that reason. No 50 ,000 Wednesday arts need some coin. I know you've got plenty. The point is not the coin. The point is the business model I can do it for passion. I can do it for passion. You can do it for me in Sheffield. I'll come with you for a game and I'm going to talk about it then. I won't throw it out. Tell me about this Ferrari here. This is the Ferrari that my son built for himself. And he's still waiting to get this particular one. Alright, so that's not been built yet. It's not been built there. It's an SF3. That's one of his wish list. I haven't got it.

8:23It's a very expensive one. I haven't got this one yet. But how much would that cost? That's a Lego. Yeah, I know that I know it's Lego. How much is the real one? Approximately about three million three million pounds. Yeah, wow. How many in the world other not many? I think probably 50 and are you so in with Ferrari that you can get that because I guess there's a waiting list for those kind of things Oh, if you have a certain number of Ferrari then you're stable. I mean you stable. I'm stable, right? You can have one right? Let's keep going This is a special room look at I like bars. Yeah, I like your collection of you know, I'm not alcoholic I don't know I've never had a drink in my life.

8:58Well, why have you got so much alcohol? Because I have people like you like to come and I like to entertain. Sassy Kaya. Yes, it's my house wine. Yeah, house wine? That's my house wine. House wine, why not? You've got plenty going on here. Batgammon? I love Batgammon. I like that table. Where do you get that table? I have a few of them in the house. I have it on every floor of a similar table. Yeah, it's a great game. I need one of those for my part. Right, this is what intrigue. You've got bats everywhere. Bats up the stairs. the way up all the way up the stairs all the way down there all the way up to there yeah all the way shirts going up I don't have playful memorabilia that's the problem you've got so much going on here that's from the 2011 World Cup that's obviously when India won it yeah yeah now what I'm interested in this room no a gym I love a gym in a house but a gym with so many cigars because They just came in.

9:49They just came in. So they're being reconditioned. I've never seen a gym. They're being conditioned. Did you check this out? I have seen this, yeah. You know this guy? I've heard of him. He's a great guy. He's a great player. You must meet him. I've heard of him. I feel like I'm with Totti Lescott. Yeah. Michael Jordan, and then you've got me. You're the only cricket player I have in this room. Did you notice that? Have you just put that up this morning? No, I haven't. It's always been that. You have. You've got your team. Look, this is the show that I'm interested in, Alec. This is, for me, I would argue that is potentially historically the most important moment in cricket history.

10:31That is exactly what it is. I went to South Africa and I had just announced the IPL. No players on board except for one EN for Flintoff, I think, and two Peterson were on board. And and of course Sachin and all, but none of them wanted to go to the T20 World Cup because nobody had played T20 in India. And I went in there to the dressing room one day, and I said to all the boys, if anybody hits the six sixes or takes six wickets, I will give them a Porsche. I've seen that bat. Yes, one six after the year, I get hit by that bat right there, the six sixes. And I was standing on the sideline, and I promised a Porsche, and Yuva Singh goes out and hits those six sixes.

11:16But the best part of this, he comes running to me and he says to me, where's my Porsche? I say, you just hit the bloody sixes. And he's running back and says, stop, stop, stop. Give me your bat. And he gives me the bat. He runs away. I give him his Porsche, but he changed it for a BMW in exchange, like a fool. And the bat is worth more than 50 Porsches now. We've had Yuvi on the show. Yeah. And he spoke about that. He was a bit confused about the car, mate. Yeah, why don't you? Did you deliver straight away? It took, in India you couldn't, yeah, what happened is the Porsche was going to take six months to get.

11:48So he comes to me and says, I can't wait six months. There's a BMW available right away. Can you give that to me? So I went immediately to the shop, bought the BMW and handed it the keys. And you've got Kevin, Kevin Peterson there. Yep, that's Kevin my buddy. Yeah, what does he say on the bat? Thank you for everything you've done for all players and thank you for our friendship. Come on, let's have a chat. Let's have a sit down.

12:39yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply. Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. And whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, reporters on the ground with all the big teams, and the legendary football weekly podcast. The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer.

13:12Search Guardian Soccer for more. Have you ever been stuck on a weight loss plateau, trying everything and anything you can to lose that extra weight and reach peak health? We've all been there, but Noom's unlocked the secret to reaching the mountaintop. Go in micro. The Noom GLP-1 microdose program starts at$99 and is delivered to your door in seven days. Start your microdose GLP-1 journey today at Noom.com. That's N-O-O-M dot com. Noom. Microchanges. Big results. Noom GLP-1RX program involves healthy diet, exercise, and support. Individual results may vary. Meds and personalization based on clinical need.

13:49Not reviewed by FDA for safety, efficacy, or quality. No affiliation with Novo Nordisk, Inc., the only U.S. source of FDA-approved semaglutide. Not available in all 50 U.S. states.

14:01So Jacob Bethel from England, you're predicting by then he could be on$16 million. Yeah. Since 2007, I've been saying this test should turn into a four-day game. It should be day and night.

14:18How long have you had this place? Seven years now. Whose was it before? It belongs to the Prime Minister of Qatar. Prime Minister of Qatar. I was gonna ask you that. I mean, you're not far from the king, are you? Do you have a nip round? I know him well. You know the king well? You know, I have something to do with the Princess Trust. And for the first match, when the Princess Trust was to start in 2005, His Majesty had me over with Manoj Badali and with Mark Shan, who is my closest friend in life. I said, what would we like to do? I said, why don't we host the India-Pakistan match? The Indian played Pakistan for many, many years.

14:57I thought this would be a befitting opportunity. I sold the match out at 11 million dollars, not pounds, dollars. And the match was rained out. So His Majesty says, met the team, met everybody. I guess we made a long trip for nothing. And I said, no, Your Majesty, here's the check. He said, why? How come? I said, I insured against the rain. And that was the start of that. So you managed to deliver to the now king what you set out to do and that's why you're good pals. I have good pals because we perform. We perform and we perform for the benefit of others, not for the benefit of ourselves. So your life is, when I asked you to do this interview, your schedule was set, your schedule is mad.

15:45You're all over the world. I'm a retired man, I'm enjoying life. Retired? man just trying to make some chili oil nowadays that's all and keeping abreast with what's happening with the world of cricket yeah and look we'll get we'll get on to that particularly the IPL and what's happened in recent times but you got me on the right day I can tell you this what what what gets you up in the morning you know I have a new partner in life Reema she's Lebanese and she keeps me up and you know just every day the new day I look at every day the new day and a new challenge. And for me, I never look at the past.

16:21Past is the past. And I look at what I can do now to move on. And every day I look at some new projects or I'm looking at new things to do. But I love traveling. I like to see the world. And it gives you so much insight and so much. You learn so much about the history and the culture of people. And that keeps us going. You must have, I wouldn't say an army, but a lot of people that are going to follow your ideas. I hope they do. Because the IPL was your idea. Yes, it is. And it's now just been valued, am I right, over 19 billion? That's just the brand value. Yeah. If you look at the value of the BCCI today, based on, let's just put it raw numbers so that everybody can understand.

17:10One team of the IPL has now been valued at$2 billion yesterday, right? All teams are the same, pretty much. Get marginally up and take 10%. So we got 10 teams. We got 10 teams. That's$20 billion universe, right? BCCI is double that, more than double that. So the BCCI value, in effect, just from the IPL is$30 billion. Apart from that, you add all the other international cricket, another$10 -$15 billion. So BCCI is in the region of about 40 to 45 billion. Okay? The IPL team that combined 20 billion, right? You stretch that forward to 2030, which is the next cycle I would give right now, four years from now, because you have the next media cycle that's going to come out in 2028.

17:57IPL is going to double. I guarantee it. The viewership of IPL is rising. The middle class is rising. Today, the Indian market was based primarily on advertising sales. Today, as we sit here today, you saw the last World Cup, just finished. The traction on GEO was 650 million viewers. IPL this coming season, in close to about 35, 40 languages, is going to hit the viewership of close to about 750 to 800 million viewers, concurrent viewers. that's bigger than anything in the planet that is a sustained me Harry Harry's he works on the show with us he's generally the the person that kind of delivers drinks but you've got that many staff area it's kind of unemployed today fantastic so lovely yeah so if you look at it and this is very this is very interesting and it has a global impact and nobody's understanding the impact and you'll understand it as a player better than anybody else.

19:06And this is what I want to talk about more. Let's assume for a minute that the IPL teams are going to be valued double, but their revenue line, that means the profit line, and the money that they're going to get, they get 50 % of all media rights. So media rights today is 1.8 billion. It's going to go to 3.6 billion. That means$1.8 billion is going to come to the IPL team owners divided by 10. That's$180 million each, right, as an example. Plus they have the sponsorship revenue. Per annum? Per annum. Alone. Just one team. That's what they're going to hit to. Okay? Look at the impact on the player purse.

19:48There's a certain amount that they have to spend on players. Right? You will see the player purse of the IPL team rising to$100 million a season. The cap? Yeah, that means the cap of the team, team cap. So you will see top players who are basically playing 16 games, having an earn-out of a million-dollar game. That's top three or four players in the team are going to make$15 to$16 million a game, without doubt. I have no doubt in it by the time 2030. So for a whole IPL season which is basically two months, you're predicting in 2030, 2930. 2930 A player, let's say Virat Kohli is probably going to be a bit older but say a Virat Kohli style personality.

20:41Indian players are making too much money. Let's just take the international players. This is where the impact is. Alright, so Jacob Bethel from England, you're predicting by then he could be on 16 million dollars a year. For two months. Keep in mind. Now you know, as a player, your life is 105 days maximum, a year. That's the maximum that you can play. As per your body, as per the regulations, the number of days you can be on a field is 105 days. Your duty to the country and to your domestics is 80 days, approximately, give and take a little bit here or there. Okay, now that you have the hundreds, which we'll talk about later, and you have the shorter format, it may be a little bit more.

21:25Then you have to play for your county. Then you have to play for your local league, like the IPL league, which they don't have, but they have something called, strangely, the hundred. And then where would you go next? There's the Big Bash, there's the South African league, there's the American league, the CPL, every other mushrooming league around the world and the mother of all leagues is the IPL. Now your central contract by then if you're the top ranking I don't know what it is you tell me what's the top ranking English player get? I'm guessing uh I'm guessing 1.3 million. 1.3 million. For everything, play every game.

22:06Every game? Yeah. So now you have a player who has wife, two children. He's at the peak of his career. He knows he has to sustain his life livelihood going forward. He has a decision to make with injuries. There are other issues related to health and just to share whether he will have an income or he will have a job after he finishes is country duty. What is he going to choose? 16 million here, 1 million here, 85 days here, 16 days here, 2 months, all paid for. What is he going to risk? What are his children going to tell him? I was going to say, do you think cricketers in the IPL are underpaid for the revenue that comes in?

22:57You're saying in the future? They will in the future. Would you think they've been underpaid with the revenue that's been created? No, not yet. The IPL is paying them very well and they're getting a lot of other... Well, compared to the amount that's coming in and the percentage that goes on wages... It's just coming in now. But you'll see a percentage of... I always... I believe... And I've been trying to push that for a long time for all boards to have 26 % of the top revenue allocated to players. And what's it at in the minute? Probably half of that. Right. Okay? I think we'll get that. It's going to get competitive.

23:29You've seen everywhere. Everybody wants to win. But the IPL model has been designed in a way that everybody gets equal so the teams get all equally paid in terms of the media rights revenue and every one of them is going to try and win so they don't care where they land up and that's what makes it a really good tournament that makes the option the big auction every three years and you'll see the big auction pulling all the big players and big dollar values but the issue would become what is the domino effect going to be on global cricket forgetting that look at the West Indies they don't get paid over a few hundred Look at the Sri Lankans, not even 100 ,000.

24:06New Zealanders, 100 ,000, 200 ,000. Australians a little bit more. Bangladesh, negligible. Zimbabwe, negligible. Afghanistan, negligible. Then you have the Pakistanis, negligible at the end of the day. So when you have somebody sitting there and you see this exactly, the same dynamics play out in EPL. There's no difference. If you look at it, if somebody says I'm talking bullshit, guys, look at the EPL, the English Premier League. It draws the highest value players. Why? Because of the television rights and the monetization of it. And it pulls all the players in there. They don't want to anymore be dragged into country versus country.

24:49They would rather just play the World Cup. And that's what's going to happen. You want to represent your country, represent in the World Cup or the Olympics. But bilaterals will be impacted. Yeah, I would say that they're the ones that are going to go. They're the ones that are going to go. And I think, I hope Test cricket survives because I love Test cricket. I think one day there's a completely irrelevant form of a tournament today. It makes no sense. What, the 50 over game? Yeah, I think it's just because the shorter format you have. But it makes a lot of money in the World Cups. It's not about the money anymore.

25:25It is about whether you're able to sustain loyalties from the crowd. You look at the generation that is growing up now. Unfortunately, they are not experiencing tests anywhere else except in Australia and in England. These are the only two countries that are actually keeping the level of tests up because of the ashes and because of the English season. And you have the advantage of that. And the rest of the world, tests are dying. Now, people think I'm crazy to suggest it, but I care about it. And my suggestion has always been, and since 2007 I've been saying this, and I said it at the Lords, tests should turn into a four-day game.

26:08It should be day and night, because people don't have the luxury today to go out there and spend four days, all day, sitting in the sun and drinking beer. I'm sorry, those were the good old days when you had a single channel television and the test was rare and not accessible. But media today available to you on the fly, every match around the world available to you. You have so many different jobs that you're juggling, you have children and there's so much more content and entertainment that is available to you as a consumer that you have to pick and choose what people will watch. And if you want to build loyalty with the youngsters, you've got to catch them young.

26:52And you've got to give them the experience. But if they're going to watch football and they're going to watch rugby and they're going to watch tennis, which is your competition, rightly so, and then you have the T20 on that. T20 is a competition too. You're going to lose the people from test cricket. And test cricket is the true determining factor on the ability of the cricketer, without doubt. What cricket is all about is actually test cricket. I'm playing cricket in school. I'm taught there are six balls in a bloody over. The only way test cricket will work. Somebody's going to shoot me for saying this.

27:27What's your crystal ball saying about the hundred in English cricket?

27:35So test cricket, you believe it should be a four-day product, day-night cricket. How does it get structured? two leagues, one big league, when in the year do we play it? I mean, I'm a big believer that for Test cricket to really survive, we need pockets in the calendar where everyone's playing Test cricket. I agree with you. So the only format that you're watching at that period of time is Test cricket. Now we're entering the IPL stage, guess what? The only real cricket that globally they'll be watching is the IPL for two months. There'll be a bit of county cricket, huge amount of support in the UK for that.

28:06I'll tell you what the only way Test cricket will work. Somebody's going to shoot me for saying this. first time I'm saying this okay let the IPL teams own test cricket teams you've got the youngsters you've got the the loyalty factor what so you want to sell test match no I don't I want to be able to they must play test cricket as a team you played your country versus country without doubt that's premium that's I'm saying you have it in the world championship that goes around the world every year. You know, you play those without doubt. But also, so that it doesn't disappear, you have exhibition matches starting off with.

28:49The teams playing test cricket, at least play one in season between each other teams, just to get their youngsters back into the game. But anyway, that's going to be like club cricket. You have club cricket in everything, It doesn't matter. But the primary has to be country versus country. And you've got to make it such. But you've got, right now, people are chasing the dollars. And if you look at the dollar signs everywhere, the dollar signs are not on press cricket. Whether we like it or we don't like it, the advertisers are paying for eyeballs. And if there are no eyeballs in there, then you're not going to be able to get that.

29:30And you've got to understand the test team is completely different from the T20 teams. whether we like it or not, it's a fact. It'll get more kind of dressed over time. It's going to get more and more drastic at the time. That is why I'm saying when I say this, some people will hate it, hate me for saying this, but I want to make the game survive. I don't know the solution. Unless the world cricket bodies get together, but they can't because the money is not chasing it. If the money is not chasing it, what are you going to do with it? You're going to keep pouring. You're going to keep doing something.

30:00They keep chasing. They make too many World Cups. you have the T20 World Cup you have the T20 every year every year they're making it you're putting a strain on the players and where's the money going? it's going into the ICC it's not going into the boards so that needs to stop the money needs to be bilaterally done so either the do you think the ICC have got to spread their wealth better than they are doing at the minute? without doubt you know there is no reason see the top three countries Australia England and India to a certain extent don't need ICC funding They really don't need a penny from it.

30:35And they shouldn't be getting anything out of it. They should be actually using that vehicle to promote cricket, to expand cricket and build. I'll give you a fine example. I mean, Italy entered the World Cup this year, which is great. But it's hilarious. They played nicely. They played nicely. Ireland is starting to come up. But the best of all is Afghanistan. I mean, they're a great team. Nepal, again. America's but they don't have the money the infrastructure if I was the ICC they spent 25 million dollars putting that one day game between in New York to build a temporary stadium that 25 million dollars it was better spent building a stadium in Afghanistan and could have been sustainable they could have spent another America is very expensive everybody thinks we're gonna break the American market with the Olympics.

31:29Forget it. It's not going to happen in this lifetime of ours. The MLC, do you think it's going to fail? Complete disaster. Complete disaster. MLC is a complete disaster similar to the Middle Eastern League. Complete disaster. Okay? But the ILT20? Complete disaster too. What is going to survive today is the South African League. It's not going to make money because there is no money in South Africa, but it's going to have a house full. It's going to build passion. Dennis O 'Brien, a very dear friend of mine, came to me many years ago. He owns the CPL. He said, now let's guide me. We want to go after the Indian market.

32:08I said, Dennis, do me a favor. Copy the IPL model, but do it for the Caribbean. Fill bums on the seat. Bums on the seat is what you need. Don't care about revenue if you can afford it right now you put bums on the seat I guarantee you five six years down the line all the teams will start to make money and you have a sustainable league which is equivalent to what you need in the Caribbean everybody can't be in India everybody can't be in South Africa everybody can't be in England everybody can't be in Australia you don't have the population base you have one of the best players in the world some of the best players in the world historically come out of the West Indies but Western deserves a league.

32:52So Phil do that and he did that. Pretty much all teams are profitable now, okay, out there. And he fills the stadiums. And similar thing in South Africa. They're doing well but you make a million dollars a team. So South Africa you don't think can make much money but they can provide a great service to all those cricket fans in South Africa. They also build great cricketing legends in there and build the youth. Same thing with West Indies. Same thing with Australia. I don't know what you guys are doing in England. What about in England? I don't know what the hell you're doing here. But we've just made money, yeah?

33:29Have you made? A hundred. Have you made some money? Well, the numbers were 395 million for the Lord's... Okay, who's made that money? Well, I would say the ECB. It's money. They've signed an agreement to get the next amount of money from a lot of the Indians pretty much okay who think that's gonna be an IPL okay I want to know there's five six people out here in the room can I ask a question of course you go okay guys do you know what a hundred is yes yes what is it and do you know that how many balls in and over or it could be ten also you know that it's gonna be tent also so you're trying to say it's confusing i'm a child all right i'm growing up in school i'm playing cricket in school i'm taught there's six balls in a bloody over okay i'm five balls are gone it's a crucial wicket to be taken okay pressure on the bowler pressure on the batsman the sixth ball is coming everybody's sitting out there hands like this six more mate five balls I don't know what the hell is five balls first and foremost.

34:45It's not played in school. I'm not being taught that. By the way. It's the same skill sets of T20, isn't it? Forget it. You can play 10 over game. It doesn't matter. You can do what you want. It's not the skill sets. It's the rules of the game. If you don't know the rules of the game, you can kick a football around at the end of the day. But if you don't teach the people in school how it's played, and it's only played in England, by the way, hundreds. How are you going to tell the kids back home in India or in America, hey, guys, there's a new tournament. which has new rules. I get your crystal ball out.

35:17So in 2006-2007 when you created the IPO, you had this crystal ball that the IPO was going to be a monster. And it has become. What's your crystal ball saying about the 100 in English cricket? It'll die in three years. Completely die. Die? Die completely. It'll be finished. It won't be there. I guarantee it. In three years? Three to four years it will not exist. It will pump so much money in it that there was no future in it. Simply give you the reasoning. Simple reasoning. It's in the month of August. You have a great window. Yeah. That's all you have. Okay? There's no promotion marketing behind it at all, number one.

35:56Sky has no reason to promote it. There is no money coming into the game. At the end of the day, the people who bought the team are expecting a return from it. And the return comes from media rights and nothing else but media rights. IPL gives 50 % of its revenue, in the beginning it gave 80 % of its revenue to the teams. Let's sit here today. Would you buy a Sky package for one month just for the hundreds? Me personally? Not you, you. I wouldn't. No. No. I want all my sports. Would you buy a hundreds package alone, nothing else? Come on, Ari, what are you doing? You pay 19 pounds for a hundreds package?

36:37Move? Yes. Watch it, maybe. You would? No. No. Simple as that. There's no advertising revenue behind it. The UK market is not an advertisement-driven market. UK market is the best market in the world for subscription revenue. That is Sky Terrelation's model. It's model is subscriber-based. You need to have sustainable subscriber-based. People are fighting for the soccer package. People fight for the cricket package also, but only the Ashes are. And when India comes and plays for it, that's what they're watching. It's spread over four or five months. You have a short window of one month that you put the hundreds in.

37:21You're buying a cricket package, which is already diminishing. Football is taking over in the England market. If people have disposable income and they have young kids and they're newly married and they're coming in and they have constraints on buying a skybox, what are they buying? Packages. Because all sports products have become very expensive. So their packaging, their first sell is football. Then they're adding add-ons. You want the cricket package. You want the Formula One package. Formula One is growing very fast. Tennis is growing very fast. Formula One is growing faster than cricket is in England.

37:58now and around the world so children of this age it's not you and me we're old guys and you can't talk about you and me stop calling me old i am old okay what year were you born uh 74. still younger than me 10 years i was 163 so you're not that old but for me i don't have the control of the remote control anymore if i have young kids in the house yeah the young kids in the house dictate what we I want to go to the game. Which game are you going to? Oh, I have ticket for Nottingham, because I'm a member of Nottingham Club, and I played that song. Come with me. Dad, my friends all want to go to a football match.

38:39You can't milk something that is not milkable, guys. I mean, you can't go and milk a cow, and you can't milk the bloody thing. It's running out of juice. You've been calling him a clown. He is a clown. He doesn't know the history of the cricket. Is he a wanker or a clown? Both.

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40:45All right, this is a blank piece of paper here. Lalit Modi runs English cricket. You're the boss. yeah what you're gonna do and how you're gonna make it sustainable in the future they should be one short format one short format you have two short formats okay you're confusing the crowd you're confusing the money one t20 model one model worldwide model is t20 globally is t20 convert into t20 for heaven's sake give them a lot of happen on it it won't happen because you have vested interest now with the team owner then you have the county who have their own What's it called? Vitality blast the blast you had the blast which is played about that which is a great product they should taken the blast and bought private ownership 50 % into it with the owners into 18 counties without into the 18 counting I would have uploaded them and every county would have got money in it The ECB so-called decided that they want to milk something then you can't milk something that is not milkable guys I mean you can't go and milk a car but you can't milk the bloody thing It's running out of juice.

41:49It's getting old. I mean, they've tried it once, they've tried it twice, they've tried it three times. But they'll say it's worth because they've milked the cow recently and it's produced some milk. But it hasn't paid off. But it has. They've paid it for over a billion. They signed an agreement to pay the first year's money. That's all they've got. That's it. What happened in year two and three and four and five? When the rights fees don't come in, the advertising revenues don't come in, the BCB does not deliver the numbers. What happens then? They're not able to renegotiate the Sky contract, which I guarantee they will not, because Sky is not interested in it.

42:25So TV contracts, digital contracts, I mean, the IPL is now over$6 billion, isn't it? It's going to go to$12 billion. Yes, all right. So let's say it's at$6 at the minute. Realistically, in the future, if you put your model in place, what kind of TV revenue, digital revenue, do you think could be created from here in England? If it was completely separate from the ECB's main package, and independently run by the ECB as the blast, and with all the 18 teams, with co-ownership with the private enterprise, and I would like primarily England entrepreneurs, you bring in the Mick Jagger of the world, the Paul McCartney of the world, the Elton John of the world, the co-own with the biggest industrialists in the world, bring glamour into it, and you just played the T20 format, you would you would make attraction you would sustain the game you would bring children back into the game but you made the fundamental mistake of calling it the hundreds because you don't want to copy lolly smoothie and that's what it is and that's what it's all about at the end of the by the way did you know I offered them two billion dollars for it for the for the window for that that window that turned it down because it was me I said give me the window so you You wanted the month of August.

43:42Give me the month of August. I'll do an IPL-type tournament, but I don't want any strings attached with the broadcasting rights or anything else. We will retender everything. So it was a one-off fee of 2 billion? No. It was 1 billion pounds to start with for X number of years and then increasing at the rate of 10 % per annum. You know, I had a team with Andrew Wildblood. Yep. and John LaFagan, who are good friends of mine, who ran the IPL. We put together a whole model. I had a whole backing of it from different entrepreneurs around the world. And we were going to go out and risk capital and put it in there.

44:21But it had to be an independent enterprise like the EPL. And we would have made a sense out of it. But I did say at that time that there would be no other short format. There would be the only short format. But the ECB would get a large amount of money. What they've got today is good, but it's going to die. I mean, they fundamentally made the mistake of going for 100. Nobody in India or internationally, forgive me, understands the 100. And if nobody plays the 100, why would they watch the 100? If you haven't grown up with the 100, why would you watch it? And you're not going to promote it. It's only available in the month of August.

44:57And it's peak school time. It's wrong timings. It's the middle of the night in India. children are not going to be staying awake IPL we designed to be at the holiday time and so it was at night but if you did so you say middle of the night in India it's what four or five hours ahead yes so I get it but what about your model if you're gonna take them it was still gonna be similar I was gonna play for the England I wasn't playing it for the Indians you understand yeah you have to play the model for English you have the best club culture in the world, in England. You've done it with rugby. You've done it with soccer and football.

45:37So there is no reason that people wouldn't embrace a club culture, but you've got to build a club culture within the country, not base it outside the country, for heaven's sake. It's not going to work. If you don't have bums on the seats, I guarantee you won't have bums on the seat. You're sitting here. The hundreds have had good success with the crowds. Yeah, but at what price? Most of the crowds in the past have been because of club membership and things like that. Ticket revenue. Well, the 100 model when it first came, I think it was£30 for a family of four. I'm fearful that to get their money in, in the future, they're going to have to start charging.

46:15And it's not going to happen. And it's always been a competition which is meant to be for everybody. Let's just put it this way. And available for everybody. And that's what it should be. I like the 100. I like what it's brought by. I do have a concern that all this investment, they're going to need a return and they're going to have to charge more for the seats. All I'm going to tell you, they need a return. They've made a fundamental mistake of putting a return based upon people paying a high price and thumb-toeing that we have made so much money. Okay, deliver now. These teams are putting in$50 million a year.

46:44Okay? Okay? What are they going to get for the£50 million? Guys, you're not getting£50 million for the whole league from Sky. From Sky. So, you don't get it to year one. Okay, do I really want it year two? Do I really want it year three? Okay, I'm gonna drag it down. Some money has to come out of some pocket to be making another pocket. That's why the Middle East League is gonna die. That's why the American League is gonna die. Nobody wants it anymore. There is no money in it. They've tried it. Don't people don't want to lose. And if you look at the valuations today of IPL, IPL is trading. Well, we've just had Rajasthan sell for 1.

47:2263 million. 63 million. 2 billion. Royal Challengers Bangalore has gone for 1.7, 1.78, but it's actually 1.94. But I was going to ask you, so... It's actually 1.94, it's 2 billion nearly. Do people from the BCCI ring you up and say thank you? No, of course not. Because they make 5%. They make 5%. They made 90 million dollars on the Royal Challengers deal, the BCCI. and they made 70 million dollars on the 70 80 million dollars on the other Rajasthan royal deal every time the trick they trade they make more money now that's more money than the hundreds makes in two years in one transaction now it's going to have multiple effects nobody's understanding this you're a player you have to choose whether you're going to play thank you whether you're going to play the IPL are you going to play the hundred if it's going to come down to them play you're still country first everybody still has that little bit of country first to me today yeah today do you feel that in the future that might not be the case but it's seen in football too my friend yeah you know they play it because they're forced to play it but they don't want to play it and you know it's good for that commerciality as a player and you do certain number but in football is limited to the number of days today but you're not going to play 80 days of your life out of 100 days of your life in a non-commercial venture for yourself.

48:51Ultimately, it's going to catch up. And whether we like it or we don't like it, you've seen it in the West Indies. You've seen my friends like Chris Gale and all of them. You know, they were all, they weren't getting paid anything. You know, there was a time in 2011, I remember very clearly, I had just left the IPL, come back to London, and my good friend, Chris Gale, wasn't picked up at the auction.

49:15And I get a call from him. He said, nobody picked me up at the auction. I said, you didn't perform. IPL is all about performing. You played for the Kolkata Night Raiders. My feeling is you didn't perform. People won't perform. And then you can perform. You just got lazy about it. I really wanted that. You know, I have a huge debt coming in my thing. I need to make my bills pay. I made a few calls. Call one, two, three. Everybody said no. I went across the door to Vijay Maliya's house. I said, Vijay, give this bloke a try. He said, you know, I think Nathan's been injured or something. Nathan was injured.

49:52He said, I have an opening. But I pay him if he performs. I told Chris, go there, perform. He set world records. He wrote his own checkbook. He wrote his own life. He never looked back after that. He got a multimillion dollar contract. He went and performed. And it was the hunger in him that made him do it. And hats off to him. He's a good friend of mine. and I see him every time, but, and he's a great guy, but it's the hunger. So what do you go to? At the end of the day, we have some great players around the world. It's going to come down to, can I put food on the table? And that's what it's going to come down to, whether we like it or we don't like it.

50:33And this is what's going to be different from everything else. And this is what worries me more than anything else, that IPL is becoming so over-dominant, So over dominant and nobody's seeing that. But it is the reality. Like English Premier League today dictates where players go. Spanish League is to a certain extent coming up now in the French League. But they don't compare them to the English. What's the, I mean, these, you know, you've got real high in private equity people coming in to invest. And they're all IRR based. But what, so you're saying in, so at the minute, one's gone for 1.73, and in a few years' time, they're going to be worth 5 billion.

51:15Yes. Now, where's that growth going to come from? Television. We have just been, in India, we are the fastest growing television market in the world. We have 1.5 billion people. Largest growing middle class, third largest economy in the world. We have the propensity to pay. We're just scratching the surface. You're looking at ticket prices at 5, 10 pounds comparatively in India. You're going to go to 15, 20 pounds and it'll break the circuit. You know, you've got 100 ,000 stadiums coming in. You look at it again. If you get$20 average ticket price in India, a game, and 100 ,000, that's 2 million bucks.

51:55That's$18 million nine home games straight there. Just from the average ticketing. You add the higher ticketing, you've gone to 30 million, 40 million already a season. 40 million multiplied by 60 was 61 times earning work that out that's 2.4 billion right there what what what does it make you feel like when the look now supergiant's owner praises Jay Shah I mean guy doesn't know he's my brother-in-law by the way but you can't I've seen you on social media you've been calling him a clown he's a clown and he's your brother-in-law but that doesn't matter but he doesn't understand the history he's like to suck up to the power that be so you know I can afford to bash everybody doesn't have history you don't know the history of the cricket.

52:35Is he a wanker or a clown? Did he buy the porch? No he didn't. You know what he did he bashed his captain in the in front of everybody the shepherd last year I mean that's the kind of clown and I called him out for that you don't do that he bashed his captain for losing a game you win and lose a game all the time but you don't go as an owner but you've never been on the field for yourself and then you go to temples and go and pray that you win. Okay guys, we have, it's a monthly ethnicity team. Why the temple? Why don't you take the other player to the church and to the mosque? You don't just go out there and politicize or religionize the game.

53:16The game is for everybody and that upsets me. It upsets me to no end. I don't care if he's my brother-in-law or not, but you've got to pay respect to the guy who is playing for you. He is your bread and butter. If it wasn't for the players, there would be no cricket. If it wasn't for the fans, there would be no players. So it's a circle that rolls around the fans and the players. They are the key. And you've got to respect them at all costs. And that is why I took on the boards. And that is why I said players are the critical lifeline and they have been treated like dirt. They have been, I mean, they have just been squeezed out of everything and they have not been given the dues you know I bought some sensibility into administration yes all administration should have cricket players in it but they should also have people like me to have a broader sense of commercialization in the organization but cricket players should be very much part of the ecosystem because they understand the game better than anybody else they have given this sweat and blood and their life and all the work to the game.

54:26And when somebody disrespects that, it upsets me because they're not your employees. You know, they're not something that you manufacture of the machine and that you're saying you're making tires, you're making XYZ cars. They are what you call the engine that drives the whole ecosystem. They are the product. They are the product. And the product you can't manufacture. They are bought up by their parents, by society, by the school that they go to, and the ecosystem. And it's the sheer hard work of these individuals that you're exploiting and to your own advantage. And you're making these billions.

55:17and then you have the audacity to abuse them and you have the audacity to suck up to some higher being who have no idea what they're doing that is that is totally taboo for me if if then and that is not acceptable I don't care who is I am a pariah I'm taboo I've built something great that kid is going to go out there and be the new face of Indian cricket in the future the confidence in the kid. Look at the confidence in the kid and his face.

55:51The BCCI India, are they too powerful? And they are. Similarly as the FAA in England, with football, it is bound to happen because of our population and bound to be because it is. But I would think, you keep in mind, You go back 50 years, 30 years, 20 years. England and Australia were the powers that ran cricket. England ran cricket for hundreds of hundreds of years. They were very powerful. It was a white man's game, whether we like it or we don't like it. It was what it was. And you built great infrastructure, which has come today very handy. We were a poor country. We're still not building the proper infrastructure with the amount of money we have because there's so much of corruption everywhere.

56:39I think that we should have world-class Lord's kind of stadiums in India. I think that is what we're missing and I'm calling it... Wankady, would you not say that's a... Nothing compared. No comparison. Look at the toilets. Look at the... No escalators. Look at the... Look at the facilities. They should demolish all of them and build them in even the Narendra Modi Stadium. There should be all modern high-class stadiums with modern escalators, modern catering systems, beautiful bathrooms. Look at the beautiful stadium that everybody's building around the world in soccer. When money comes into the game, that's what the job of the BCCI is.

57:14Why did I leave 50 % on the table for BCCI in my model? The model was the teams get 50 % and the BCCI get 50%. The 50 % goes to the safety association to rebuild the stadiums and the infrastructure. We have more money than God, for heaven's sake. they should be putting hundreds of hundreds of millions of dollars per stadium in to bring them to world-class if they did that today the experience is not good they may look full they may look big but actually you have your cameraman going there go to the back of the back of the house go to the stadium look at it it's a piece of crap it really is it really is it's not maintained to the level of even your old stadium in England.

58:00I mean you go down to any stadium in England they're beautiful because you built on them and they kept neat and clean and you have great system. Australia. Cash reserves, I remember looking at the ECB and obviously they they kind of they had quite a few quid in their cash reserve which has been taken, they've probably got a lot more now with a hundred ball so. The BCCI what kind of money will they have sat just in their reserves? Billions, billions. I mean tens of billions. So to your point, to build a new stadium all, and to make them real high quality, they could easily do that? Tomorrow morning.

58:39And the money coming in from the IPL every year. I mean just look at it. That's a transaction fee of 90 million, right, from Bangalore. That's the transaction fee. I take the transaction fee, 100 % of it. We don't need it. Put it Get back in the Bangalore Stadium. Take the 70, 80 million they got out of Rajasthan. It's a lovely stadium. I built it from scratch. There was no stadium. Build and start putting 80 million. 80 million is a big money. And you've got another next year, and the income coming from it this year. Add that to it. You can build world-class stadiums in every city every year.

59:12You can play grassroot academies every year. PCCI is a nonprofit organization. OK? That's the job. ECB the nonprofit organization at least in ECB the money goes down but the problem with ECB is they don't have the money that we have you have the money you know you put a bid in for the hundred kind of month does anyone in administration around the world ever get on the phone to pick your brains no nobody I am I am a pariah I'm taboo because I built something great you know that's what it's all about so nobody wants but the media does love it So it's okay. Everybody calls me. The fans love it. I don't care.

59:51I don't want to be recognized by the mandarin to sit on these fat chairs and want to sit and watch. I go once in a while to a game in England. I go and buy a ticket and I go there and watch. Okay. I'm not expecting a freebie, but they won't be caught dead in my company. That's okay. That's okay.

1:00:14Does that hurt you at all? Not at all. I mean, it gives me a sense of pride that they're so afraid of my shadow. They're so afraid of what I say. And I say the truth, because I have no axe to grind. I have nothing to do except for love for the game and for the players. All the players are so friendly with me. Well, there's so many bats around. Not only that, I have over a house. I think you've got a Shane Watson bat. That bat's amazing. Shane, this was Rajasthan Royals game, and it was Punjab Kings. And he hit a hundred, I think, and the bat broke. And I just went and grabbed it. I just grabbed it.

1:00:49I thought it was a great piece of history behind it. To me, it's all about the history of the game. You know, I have every Visdan. It's all hidden behind. I have every one of the Visdans up here. So if you look at the Visdan, I have the entire collection. I put a lot of behind it. I couldn't put it up properly. I put a lot of pictures in front. But I have every Visdan book ever published. Wow. From the first edition down. This I bought at an auction a few years ago at Christie's. How much money do you reckon you've made out of cricket? I haven't. You've made no money? Well, I was an administrator.

1:01:20I didn't own any team or anything else. You must have made a few quiddits. No, I was the one who paid money to build it. There was no... Did you know that the IPL was run out of my office and I spent all the money doing it? Right. I built it from scratch. BCCI... We work for the BCCI. I have a multi-billion dollar business, you know. Our market cap runs into tens of billions. You know, we are the second largest cigarette manufacturer in India. We own Marlborough in India. the family you know still my business this my father would get really upset but I did cricket to piss off because I was pissed off with Rupert Murdoch because of the ESPN I launched ESPN that was my business I made a lot of money in my life a lot of money on my life but that was my entrepreneur I had the big cable system not as a cricket cricket I did it just that I wanted to make sure that I could build something and that was all it was about but everybody said it couldn't be done is that one of your biggest mistakes not getting a little percentage no because you know if I had it it would be commercial today I can sit back and that's why you can talk to me and and I can be independent about it I can criticize anybody I can talk what's right and give come commend what's wrong right and commend for the look at the young kid the 14 year old oh yeah I mean sort of an issue so I mean look at that now where would that happen in the world sure once she is still on contract right and underage I I can tell you now that kid that kid is going to go out there and be the new face of Indian cricket in the future the confidence in the kid look at the confidence in the kid in his face and a 14 year old like my son at 14 years do you worry I mean the one thing I worry about him is his management around him he's gonna have to have protection this is the number one question you rightly Let me point it out, I'm glad you did.

1:03:08And we can talk a little bit about this. And this is going to be the next journey for cricketers, is how we manage them, how we groom them, and how we make sure that it's not about the next watch and the next Ferrari, and it's happened to a lot of the players. You could see it in the IPL, it's created lots of monsters, but it has created some great players. The Suryavanchi kid. I mean, I saw it. I was sitting in my, I watched my cricket here. I'm sitting there and watching the cricket. I see this kid. Hit. Not possible. I'm dreaming. I'm dreaming. It's not possible that this kid is 14. And I'm googling out there.

1:03:50Seriously? I'm calling up people. Is this really real? Or is somebody making this up? I'm getting these messages all of a sudden. Look at this. Look at this. I'm watching. I'm watching. Guys, I'm watching. Not once, not twice. this guy has performed outperformed everybody and you know the good thing is we probably have another 50 of them in our country and and and this is what the IPL has done it has opened up a whole new arena for people to aspire to well it was and it was not if it wasn't for all the it wasn't for the Flintoffs of the world who were able to come and play the IPL in the year one.

1:04:33The warning was my favorite and flintoff. They were the two of the first picks of mine, okay? They were the two first people I ever called in my life, okay? And they both said yes right away and they were gods to me. A young kid, 14-year-old, 15-year-old, 18-year-old could only dream, only dream about even looking closely at them. and now you're sitting in the same bus as them sitting like this and talking to them laughing with them sharing the dressing room with them sharing a hotel with them but he's that planet I mentioned Jacob Bethel in a few years to be on that massive number you mentioned he's he's the player that I think why he's clearly gonna be on that kind of number without doubt who's gonna be around managing that is managing his money that is gonna do that they should have a whole, we just did the, at IPL, we had holes, I had a whole program around it, but it was booted out by the powers that be.

1:05:27Let it be, don't interfere, don't interfere, let it all be. But player management and grooming of the player and, you know, psychology is going to play a big part because in India they become superstars. They can't walk on the street. They become bigger than gods. They become bigger than movie stars. Cricket is bigger than movies today, you know. We needed, Shah Rukh was a very important part of bringing IPL. Shah Rukh Khan. Shah Rukh Khan was extremely important. Nobody understands this, but he was a game changer for me to bring him on. He was a school friend of mine. Shah Rukh still remains very important, but today, cricketers are becoming more important than anybody else, like football stars around the world.

1:06:05Today, in England, you know, a top football star is probably chased more than a top movie star. and rightly so with the fan base. The youngsters don't watch movies anymore. The youngsters watch football in England, around the world, and they're demigods. You know, Ronaldo is a god. Anywhere he goes, you know, so many of your players, Rooney is still a god, Beckham is still a god. Anywhere he goes. You know, there are certain gods, and they have a tremendous, tremendous influence on the young minds and impressionable minds. And that is what can work very well if we get it right. And that's what's going to be.

1:06:54It's a problem. I said both are saying that's a problem. I see there's a problem. We don't see eye to eye. And whether I see a solution, no, I don't. You and I can argue until the eye can't come. The problem is the checkbook.

1:07:12India, Pakistan. Yeah. How is it going to be possible to get those two countries playing together? Because we've talked about Test Cricket and trying to save Test Cricket and making sure that it's a real prominent feature. India versus Pakistan, clearly playing in Pakistan and playing in India is going to be a problem. But I've always said if we could host it here in the UK or in Australia, trying to get those two countries playing together. Now it's gone worse. Is it possible? Now it's gone beyond. You know, I was the first one after nine years to bring India-Pakistan together in 2006 with the Friendship Series.

1:07:46I started with the Glasgow match, then I did another one in Abu Dhabi under Sheikh Nayan when they built the new stadium, and we brought them back together. And I was the one that brought Pakistani players into the IPL, and then I had to move them out after the 26-11 massacre in Bombay. The problem is if the Pakistan cricket board was independent and ran independently, wasn't politically influenced, we would have some traction. But today, the Pakistan cricket board is so politicized by the powers that be and are pulling the levers and making it political. We have tension at that level, political level, and that is not going away.

1:08:32It's only going to get worse. So I fear for the players. I fear we are a very passionate and patriotic country, and so are the Pakistanis, very passionate and patriotic country. So I fear that it may not be possible in the near future, unfortunately. Primarily because of the politicization by the Pakistan Cricket Board, by the powers in Pakistan. and unfortunately that's the way it is and so do I see realistically anything happening there no you look at Imran Khan unfortunately great player good friend of mine got into the wrong business of politics something right but it doesn't matter to be the cricket player and a great player and a father to me that's what matters so Pakistan is a problem that's all I can say are you asking whether I have a solution no one in Pakistan say India is the problem I'm saying both a problem it's a problem I'm the both of things that's the problem yeah I see there's a problem we don't see eye to eye and whether I see a solution no I don't I don't see a immediate solution right now and and you saw Bangladesh trying to get into it they shouldn't have you know they should have stayed unaligned and play the game so when you start politicizing the game and the other breadbasket for cricket it is going to have a reverse impact unfortunately but that's the reality whether we like it or try to be right or wrong about it like I can't be I have to tell you the truth brilliant how are you on asking a question any questions You were saying when you went to India, you were already about all the kids in the streets.

1:10:22Do you think that the passion is more passion driven in India than it is in England? Or do you think it's quite similar? I mean, we could argue that the passion in England is pretty high. But do you think now it's become a bit more modernized that the old school way of India is still the way that history works? Let's put it this way. Simple question. You can answer it yourself. in every school, in every household across England, which is the number one product that they talk about. England? Yeah. Simple. It's football. And that's what they talk about. But football in the pubs, what is it? It's football.

1:11:04Or racing. Or racing. Or darts. No, but the youngster. I could see you getting involved in the darts. There's another story to that. But football is the passion. Cricket is still an elite game in this country. Okay? It's not the way it's played in every street corner with gully cricket, what you call it. You know, you name it, it's there in India. You don't see gully cricket. You play it in the field out here. It's still very prim and proper. It's still very sophisticated. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful game to go and sit in the park and watch young cricketers still coming up there and playing.

1:11:42It's beautiful in England. And that's the old English beauty about the game.

1:11:50But unfortunately, the money is chasing something else. Money is chasing the eyeballs. They want the scandal. They want something else. They want the music. They want the glamour. That's what the money is. It's rock and roll all the way, man. I mean, that's what it is. It's reality TV at the best. So cricket has become, in India, and that's what I called it, crickettainment. I did call it cricket. It was an entertainment property. It was built to entertain people. I wanted the best entertainment outside the ropes and the best cricket inside the ropes. I didn't want any influence of cricket inside the ropes, but I wanted the best Samasha outside the ropes.

1:12:32And that's what we created. The fireworks, the cheerleader, the music. And it worked. And it worked great. timing, evening, fantastic. We didn't have the weather for it in the daytime. We didn't have the, it wasn't the weather that made me do it. It was the money. There was no money in daytime cricket. The money was on advertising on the soap operas. I had already squeezed all the money out for BCCI cricket in the daytime. I didn't know where to go to, go to, which sponsors am I going to go to. So when you look at the whole 360 degrees revenue pie, and I sit here and look at the revenue pie in England, and let's just focus because that's where you're from and that's where your interest is at.

1:13:17The revenue pie in England, 360 degrees, is coming from subscription revenue. It is not advertisement driven. It is not OTT driven. It is not consumer were paying for it driven. So it is coming from two things, stadium sales, tickets, and soccer especially, and subscription revenue. There is no negligible advertising revenue. Okay? And it's never going to be there because traditionally it's never been there. So where are you going to garner that money from to make it grow? So it has to come from subscription. But subscription, you're competing with rugby, football, and everything else. You're not the premier sport out there.

1:13:57You're an add-on. You're an add-on in the cricket season. The main cricket. So let's just put it this way. You have Sky, you have BT or TNT or whatever it's called out there, four or five broadcasters sitting out there, and you put the cricket package for sale independently. It's got the ECB cricket. It's got the ICC cricket. It's got the India package and it's got the hundreds package and it's got the blast. Okay? Who will buy what? Hundreds on its own, no buyers. Why? Can I sell a hundreds package to a consumer? Simple. None of you will buy it. You're not going to pay. Just because you're a cricketer, you'll pay for it.

1:14:42But your kids will say, and you only have 20 pounds in your pocket this month. And you have the choice of football and cricket on or Netflix on Netflix What was on on Amazon you all of those options available you said that you'll say no And then try to tie you in to buy for 12 months you won't Because sometimes they want to sign a contract who's gonna buy a contract for 12 months in India. We sell cricket in and out but I owned ESPN But I had the matches on my subscription went like this When I didn't have the matches on, they went like this. And that's why we tried to have sustainable product all through the year.

1:15:22And that's what sells subscription. So it was primarily an advertisement-driven product. And now it's becoming subscription-driven because you've got a longer window. And that's what it's about. So nobody's going to buy the hundreds on its own. Okay? They'll buy the cricket on its own. They'll buy the blast on its own. they'll buy the test on its own, the bilateral's on its own. It's got a lot of history behind it, it's got a lot of eyeballs behind it, it's got a lot of traction behind it. That's why, what do you sell a hundred, what do you sell a ticket? Let's just compare it. What do you sell a ticket at an average cricket game in the Australia, anywhere in England, and a bilateral I'm guessing£80.

1:16:05What would you sell 100 for? 20? Not even, for four people? Simple as that. OK, at£80, there's a black market of£400. I can tell you that now. An£80 ticket of the India-England game, anywhere in England, is black marketed at 5x. A hundred game, you can't give it away. That's the difference. If there's no black market in reality for a game, you don't have a game. That is your proof that it works. Wimbledon, 50 pound ticket, it's 2 ,000 in the open market. It's 2 ,000 pounds because there's a want for it. a manual game, any game, you can't buy a ticket at face value. The day you can't buy a ticket at face value, you have a game.

1:17:04Today, can you say the same thing about 100? Tell me truthfully. No, no, not yet. Simple. Not yet. I've been to 100 a few times, my parents really enjoy it, my sister. You will enjoy the game. Do you think it's important for families to get people into cricket? You can argue that that's important. Listen, you and I can argue from the Thai kingdom come. The problem is the checkbook. The problem is the advertiser. The eyeballs. Because we are connected with cricket, we can say this. Get the families together. But you had the same problem to go to a menu game with your family, or whichever county you're from that you follow, and you're 100, but you only had money to put in one.

1:17:44Where would you go? Where would you go? Not for hundreds. Sorry? Not for hundreds. Simple as that. That just says it all. That says it all. Because when it comes to the IPL, I had all the money in the world. I would only go to an IPL game, and I would not go to a BCCI game. I would not go to an ICC game. If I had only disposable income, that's how you do it. If I had disposable income to do one thing and only one thing in a year, and I could do that, what would I spend my money in? We will debate it as a family. And that's what 90 % of the people do, by the way. 90 % of the people living on this planet don't have the luxury to buy every game they have the luxury to buy one or two games and that too at face value if they had the chance to buy what would they buy if it's not at face value what would they buy and that people don't understand they keep saying you can't put yourself in my shoes because I'm not the client I don't go to a game I'd rather watch it on TV but if I had to go to a game where would I go I would pay only to go to an IPL game.

1:18:50I would not even pay to go to another game. And that's the problem. I would go in England today to tell you the truth to watch an Ashes game. And I would go to England to watch an India game. And I'd pay, and I did pay, £5 ,000 for a ticket, okay, to go to a game. But the face value of the ticket, I looked at it, was£200. You should come through me. I'll get you them cheaper than that. The point is that I would go out of my way and look for, I did go to the Oval with Mr. Malia. Somebody invited us to the box, but it became such a zoo there with the media that I had to leave. I wasn't stalked by the media.

1:19:33But the point is, amazing experience. Beautiful crowd, great food, good friends I met out there. Good old Farooq and Jinnia came along. Farooq came in there. I love Farooq, okay? And so that's what it's all about. Brilliant. That's why I love this show. You've just had an argument with Harry on the show. Yeah. But Harry just said he would not buy a 100 ticket. There you go. It's your fault, Harry. And Harry said... If the 100s fails, it's your fault. Yeah, yeah. And Harry said... But by the way, Harry first said, he started the conversation by saying, we should promote the 100, we should all go to the 100.

1:20:08It's great for the family. Then I just put it back to him. If you had a choice...

1:20:17I would create a global MMA league. If you sat here 15 years ago and we talked about cricket, there was no career in cricket. There was no marine cricket. Today is life changing.

1:20:32Right, let's finish with these quickfire questions. Greatest ever player for India.

1:20:43Ever? Yeah, ever. Current or future? No, ever. Your favourite ever Indian player? Virat Kohli. Virat Kohli. Yeah. Not Sachin. No. Not MS. Virat. Kapil Dev. Favourite player outside of India?

1:21:07Ever. Ever. It's awesome. between sir vivian richards and bottom really go on which one it's a toss-up but we're in england you say beefier okay bottom he was he was ferocious yeah he was uh which sports league would you like to own outside of cricket i would create a global mma league really but that dame white does that now doesn't he he does in america doesn't know how to do it it should be Intercity it should be in the city. It's not individual. It's the only... So Dane White, he doesn't know how to do it. Brown's worth billions isn't it? Yeah it's okay. It's billions. It's a change. Yeah.

1:21:49I mean, okay, billions. IPI created in one... The day before I created it was billions. I'm working on something but it's a little more connected. Why is it? It's the oldest sport in the world. Fight sport is the oldest sport. So you're working on that now? I'm working on something. You're going to take down Dane White are you? I don't know. Let's see. Beyond my pay grade all that. What was your first car? My first car was a Maruti. Right. The first car was a Maruti. No, actually no, it was an ambassador. What am I talking about? I was 17 years old. It was an ambassador. We only had ambassador and Fiat.

1:22:24We didn't even have a Maruti in those days. It was an ambassador car. Yeah. How many cars have you got now? Oh, I lost count, but close to about 30. Favourite drink? Favourite drink used to be Coca-Cola, but now it's water. I don't drink. I'm just going to finish with this one. How old did you say you were? 63 this year. 63. So you're a young chap. When you're 70, what's your world going to look like? I hope it looks like a beautiful paradise sitting on a beach with my grandchildren. And seriously, for me, it's going to be, I hope I have two things. There's a debate on. Everybody's trying to get younger and trying to go on this wellness issue.

1:23:08I just hope I am fit enough, actually. This is one thing that actually worries me more than anything else, is that I stay fit. And you know, after my wife died, I lost myself. and I put on 94 or 4 kilos and I'm back to and I had sleep apnea issues and wasn't comfortable and today I walk every day and I'm down to 69 kilos and stable and life is good I have a new love in my life and life is very good at 70 I hope I'm going to be able to travel the world and do something interesting and I have my children's prosper and do something good with their lives. Well you'll be watching the fighting all over the world won't you?

1:23:50Yeah. Which fight? MMA. If I look at business ideas, I looked at team tennis with Billie Jean King and Elizabeth Murdoch for years. And I didn't, everybody, we had all the money for it, team tennis. New York versus London versus, you know, Moscow versus Sydney, to put in eight teams around the world and auction the players like we did. The model worked, but the timing didn't work. The players didn't have enough time available and need to be huge paychecks. You need to have the top 20 players and men and women to make it work. If you look at the genre, just the genre, fight sports, I think it's very interesting.

1:24:34Movies are made on it. Video games are made on it. Gladiators in the ring. People love fights. And if you were to make it very dynamic with the world's best fighters in a different setting all together that I can't say what it's going to be because I'll give away the game plan, but it needs to be intercity. This is the only individual sport left. And you know life of an individual goes up and goes down, but the life of a team remains. And now you need to build it into a team. Similarly, you know, team tennis is picking up now, but it's not going to be the same. So I think that if I looked at every sport genre, you have such tremendous athletes in the Kung Fu, Judo, the whole sphere of fight.

1:25:16But if they were all put together in a different format somewhere, with a sumo and everything, it has to be a very dynamic change. Not what they're doing in the cage fighting in the U.S. It's not Dana White. It is a whole amount of great athletes who persevere through their career to build themselves but are not recognized and there's no income from it today. But if you were to make it very sexy, very dynamic, very child friendly and interesting to watch, there's a play there. And it could change lives. Like cricket has, if you sat here 15 years ago and we talked about cricket, there was no career in cricket.

1:25:58There was no money in cricket. Today is life changing. It is dynamic. It has proven to become a bread and butter and aspirational sport for anybody, by any chance. We are paying salaries more than football players are getting paid, by the way. Yeah, I know. Per game. So in the future, you can see that for martial arts? I can see that for that. Only sport I see it for. Yeah. Only sport I see it for. Wow. I don't see it for anything. Everything else is already team-based. What do you reckon? I've got it. Yeah, you've got to do that and go for it, yeah. Lali, brilliant. Thanks so much. Thank you.

1:26:30Thank you for coming.

1:27:00We'll see you next time. But batch payments? Wow. Automated accounts payable? Even better. All in one place? That's a big one. And I can keep track from my phone while I get the job done. No bills in sight. What a life. Do right by yourself and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply. Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest-growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch.

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