McCullum Leaves, Andy Flower Favourite & England in a Mess! | Stick to Cricket EP 53

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1:01Michael Vaughan: by the way lads we are here filming this London Spirit special.

1:07Phil Tufnell: Can I have another chair? What do you mean? I haven't got a place to put my foot Can I pinch your chair? Nick that one

1:17Michael Vaughan: we're here to do a 100 special London Spirit but because of the McCullum news we've dived in to do a show about for head test coach so we're here to do london spirit obviously promote the hundred which we will do in next week's show but we had to jump in and do a show on what's happening in english cricket you've got a nice chair now um where should we start i mean let's start here at lords women's test match last week do you watch it yeah 37 000 well over 37 000 came through the gates good numbers yeah winning the toss and bowling not too sure that was the right way to

1:53Phil Tufnell: go in the heat i i think it did show a little bit that the ladies hadn't played a lot of test cricket

2:01Michael Vaughan: with that but they don't but india played well absolutely yeah so india played a good game yeah they didn't do you know well i think sometimes in these cricket we kind of you know four days after the t20 world cup final i know that's not easy yeah no you know but you know india's not been playing the longer format of the game but they adapted and played great so yeah england just performed poorly. They didn't play well. India bowled really well with a slope. What's England's recent record? Well not great. It's not. Not great. I mean they got to the World T20 final which was a good effort but let's be honest Australia are just a completely different force.

2:37Michael Vaughan: They're an incredible team. Dominated the game.

2:39Phil Tufnell: I was hearing, I think you might have said it Mike, are they the best team in the world at anything?

2:46Michael Vaughan: Well in any sport I would say Australian women's cricket team possibly are. I mean, they win everything, don't they? Yeah. No one can catch. I mean, South Africa won a... Well, New Zealand wasn't it, T20 World Cup a couple of times ago. And I reckon that's when England missed out. There was a couple of tournaments that Australia didn't win and England missed out then. Now Australia back on track. Good luck. Yeah.

3:10Phil Tufnell: To get back to that toss in the Test match, where did that come from? I don't know.

3:14Michael Vaughan: 30 odd degrees. You've got Sophie Eccleston, your trump card in those conditions. So you'd want to give her a little bit of roughness. Lord's can turn. Yeah. And you decide to bowl first. Yeah. Against India, they've got some good spinners. Yeah. And play spin quite nicely. So. Yeah, like we got that one wrong.

3:33Phil Tufnell: Yeah. It wouldn't be the first time, it won't be the last.

3:35Michael Vaughan: No, no, it was. I think there's, I mean, the women's team have got, they've got better. And the Charlotte Edwards has done a good job. Yes. They have got better, but there's still a long way to go. Right, who wants to start?

3:49Michael Vaughan: Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. So just hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

4:02Yeah, it's just, it's a mess.

4:04Michael Vaughan: The only person that's had the overriding backing from the CEO long term has been Rob Key. You know, no one envisaged what happened to Ben Stokes. No one at the start of the summer would have sat around the table and said, you know what, I think Ben Stokes will be gone by the end of the new season.

4:16Phil Tufnell: No one saw that. If Stokes would have gone out there and got 250 and we would have knocked them off and we would have won 2-1, would Baz McCollum have been sacked? No. No, there would have been a reset.

4:29Michael Vaughan: The reset has happened. I don't know one pundit that after that test defeat at Trent Bridge supported Baz McCollum carrying on. I didn't see anybody. What does it say for you to run in this cricket? 25 million.

4:43Phil Tufnell: Come on. Flower lost his last series 5-0.

4:47Michael Vaughan: Who's captain? Move on, move on.

4:51Phil Tufnell: I loved every minute of it.

4:57Michael Vaughan: That's McCullum. Quite weak. What's been going on? Another quite weak tough.

5:02Phil Tufnell: Have you been in Spain? How's it going to unravel? Because it's pretty much wrapped up at the minute that we're at a loss as to what's going to happen. Has it become any clearer? No. No. No. It's become even more complicated. I think so a little bit, hasn't it? And also the reset, which they spoke quite a lot about, surely in the reset plan wasn't we'll get rid of our coach and captain. By the end of the New Zealand side, we won't have a coach and we won't have a captain. That can't have been in any reset plan. Was it after the, I mean, that series against New Zealand could have easily lost 3-0, really.

5:47Phil Tufnell: But as you say, was it because the reset wasn't obvious that there wasn't a reset like that last afternoon at Trent Bridge? Was that the reason? I mean, anyone can lose a game of cricket. But as you say, we've reset, we've done this. Okay, we've lost the game.

6:04Michael Vaughan: you know we've got i mean richard gould did an interview when it was announced yeah the ceo is saying the results haven't been good enough so they had to make the change you know but i would say that if you look back at the last six months so england lost the ashes what january the 8th well around those that was the time to make the change then by carrying on it's created a load of chaos yeah a little bit more you know no one envisaged what happened to ben stokes no one at the start of the summer would have sat around the table and go, do you know what, I think Ben Stokes will be gone by the end of the New Zealand.

6:34Michael Vaughan: No one saw that coming. So that's obviously been something that they couldn't kind of envisage happening. But they must have also known that on January the 8th, having lost the Ashes and the Test team have not performed brilliantly for a while, New Zealand at home, round the table, if you're saying, look, we're going to stay with the same management group up to the next Ashes series, which is next summer, surely you sit around and go, by the way, if it goes wrong against New Zealand we've got to be strong we've got to carry on so yeah that New Zealand series we've now lost our captain our best player or play that you know gives us balance and now

7:10Phil Tufnell: we've got rid of a coach yeah so you're saying the delay has confused it oh massively so was it the performance against New Zealand or the method of the performance I think I think I think that

7:21Michael Vaughan: method on the Sunday afternoon at Trent Bridge was the final straw for many. There's been murmurings for a while that people would fancy a different coach, but I felt on that Sunday and then going into the Monday, there wasn't many pundits that were protecting Baz McCollum as a test match coach after seeing what we saw at Trent Bridge. There wasn't many. I didn't see many stand up and say, you know, Baz is the person to take English cricket forward in the test arena. If there was someone, can you name them? Because I didn't hear anybody say that.

7:54Phil Tufnell: Where do the players sit in all this? Are they powerful, strong? Do they have a voice?

7:59Michael Vaughan: I think the players love him. Yeah, they do. Of course they do. I think they absolutely adore him. And this is... Where do you sit on that? Because clearly the players... I mean, Harry Brook, he came out with a comment yesterday, actually. I think he said, Baz McCullum has done a phenomenal job in Test cricket. Now, a phenomenal job is, he's won 27, lost 20, and had two draws in his 49 test matches as an England coach. Now, losing 20 out of 49, I guess what he means by phenomenal is giving the players the enjoyment of playing cricket, I'm guessing, because the results aren't there. But he's still involved.

8:43There's not one... I've never seen a player ever slag off the coach who's still got a job. Because he's still... He's the head of the white ball. So he's going to back him up.

8:52Michael Vaughan: Oh, well, there you go. Phenomenal is a strong... That's a strong word. Saying, look, I've enjoyed working under Baz McCollum is a different kind of saying to a phenomenal job.

9:03Phil Tufnell: One thing, credit where it's due, England go to number one in T20. Yeah.

9:09Michael Vaughan: But, you know, in the 50-over game... It was 2023, the World Cup, we've won 10 out of 30. Under Baz McCullum, in 50 over cricket, we've won 6 out of 19. Do you think that T20 has just confused it by beating India as a side? It's confusing because they won 4-0. And I've got to get onto that India a little bit. Didn't we pick four sides? Or someone picked us four sides that no side could touch? And the side that came over got absolutely pumped. Yeah, they didn't play well, did they? Is that confusing?

9:37Phil Tufnell: So you've had coaches, and I've been a coach. do you know after four years you've just run out of steam a bit and it needs a change it needs a freshen up there's no mistake when when mccullum came into that job first two years were great i'm going back to jimmy anderson saying this is great this is the oldest statesman i'm loving it i'm rejuvenating johnny best yeah but the only thing i'll say about the first two years which

10:03Michael Vaughan: which it was spectacular at times. You know, beating New Zealand away from home, it's a good series. Winning in Pakistan, again, it's a really good series victory, but it's not the Pakistan of the 90s. Now, you always judge, and Brendan himself has got a load of quotes here that I might get onto in a bit, but, you know, marquee test series as an England player is India and Australia, and we've come well short.

10:26Phil Tufnell: It's a lovely thing for him to say, and I apologise for not being able to do that. So the confusion is what we're talking about is that he retains his job as a white ball coach. So a new Test match coach is going to come in and have to work sort of alongside him. Does he have to work alongside him?

10:47Michael Vaughan: Of course you do. Because you've got to talk to, you know, you've got a group of, say, 30 England players, right? You're the white ball coach. Oh, yes. Alice is the Test coach. You surely, you can't go through, oh, Marcus North is our chairman. we'll go through Marcus surely you've got to discuss because Alistair as the test coach is going to say well I want these players for my my series and you're going to go have I want the same players for my white ball series which is starting one day after you can't you can't and what I'll say about England winning in the T20 series against India brilliant and India played poorly but you know these bilateral series now yeah are becoming less and less important they're almost It's like just exhibition games.

11:27Michael Vaughan: Now, India are a juggernaut that go, we'll blood our youngster. Next T20 World Cup, what's that, in two years? The next 50-over World Cups, next September, October. India arrived with their juggernaut for the 50-overs. We threw out our juggernaut for the T20s. Well, they had to. Had to, because they had to win. So it was a little bit about men against boys, really. So I don't look at these bilateral series as much as I used to, particularly in whiteboard cricket. They need to be linked as an overall package, just to give them some meaning.

11:57Phil Tufnell: Well, then how does then, we're all going on about Andy Flower. How does then Andy Flower, and you were talking about yin and yang the other day, Mike, and yang and yang. How does then Andy Flower, who you would think... He's the hot favourite. Yeah, but he wouldn't necessarily be a good sort of fit with Baz, would he? No, but this is my confusion with it all at the minute,

12:21Michael Vaughan: is that Baz McClum came in as a Test Match coach. Matthew Mott was the one-day coach. Matthew Mott won us a T20 World Cup. All the players love McCollum. All the players love McCollum and his methods, so they kind of went back to the one-day, oh, this is too serious. So the 50-over World Cup defence in India, 23, was a poor defence. So after that, there was pressure. We then go to the Caribbean for a T20 World Cup. We got to the semi-final. Mott loses his job. At the start of 25, Baz gets all the job. So he gets the test and the one-day. We did win a game in the Champions Trophy, under Basin 50 over cricket.

12:59Michael Vaughan: You know, our T20 team has done what our T20 team has done for a while now. And you've got to judge, because we have a T20 World Cup pretty much every two years, and that's what you're judged on. It's like leading up to an Ashes series, that's what you're judged on as a coach. We got to the semi-final in India, but we've got to the last five T20 semi-finals, whoever's been the coach. So do we judge our coaches or coach on T20 cricket. You have to judge them in some way, but it's the overall package that we have to look at. Yeah, it's just, it's a mess. It's a mess because, I'll tell you why it's a mess in my very unhumble opinion, is the best sides we've ever been, I've been part of, whether that's for Essex or for England, whatever, had a direction to go in and a goal to get there.

13:46That's how we started off under Andy Flower in 2000, when he took over, and then Trevor Bailey's came, you know, that both we had a way of playing how we wanted to play and a goal to get there and we worked towards it what we've got now is nothing I can't see how anyone does that at the minute it just it's just too there's too many so many moving parts too many moving parts and it's messy and that's it just feels a mess and we keep using that word and I just don't not know the the only person

14:13Michael Vaughan: that's had the the the overriding backing from the CEO long term has been Rob key who's made all these appointments. And he's, I'm guessing, going to be in charge of the next appointment.

14:27Phil Tufnell: He is.

14:28Michael Vaughan: Richard Gould has said that he will lead. So Rob Key will then be put in place, as his job is, Director of English Cricket, to appoint the Test Match coach, who will be coming in to work with Baz McCullum, the White Bull coach. And we know that the relationship that Baz and Kesey has, I think it's now a real mess. It's messier now than if you'd have just said, look, Baz McCullum carries on. Him and Harry go till the end of the ashes. We'll see how it works out. Or the other way around would be Baz out the way and we're starting afresh now with new coaches. I just think it's messier now. He's trying to appoint a test match coach.

15:07Phil Tufnell: So what's the solution then? If it's messy, what is the solution? Because we're now looking for a coach and a captain.

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16:58Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. You know Andy Flower probably better than any of us around the table. Do you see Andy Flower giving up Royal Challengers Bangalore? Why? Are you happy to accept, all of us as ex-England players, that we criticised a player for not playing a Test match against New Zealand? And the administrators have to answer the question of why we're putting a Test match so close to the end of the IPL. That's for another day. But are we happy for potentially our Test match coach, if it is Andy Flower, to not be there for a Test match? I just don't. No, I don't want that.

17:38You don't want that?

17:39Phil Tufnell: No, I don't want that. I don't, knowing, I like to say knowing Andy, but I haven't obviously worked with him for a few years now, is that if he's in a job, he is in it properly. One thing I know about Andy, he won't just do a job half-heartedly. So if he's doing the Bangalore job, and he's obviously done an amazing job, and where was he before? Was he in luck now? Yeah, I think they finished third. And, you know, like took a team from the bottom. He would have thrown everything into that. And if he wants to carry on that success RCB, He's not just turning up the day before the IPL starts. He's putting that work in, I'm pretty sure, months before.

18:16So I don't think you can do both of them to your potential. I don't think you can. There's too much cricket to be able to turn. Well, let's be honest.

18:22Michael Vaughan: He's doing the 100 ball with the London Spirit. Fantastic appointment. He's not turning up tomorrow. The Test Series against Pakistan, I think, is four days after the final. So let's be honest. Andy Flower, white ball cricket, you've got to fancy that the Spirit will go quite far in this year's 100. So say they get to the final and say they're going to appoint, and he's only got three days to work with his team before the test match against Pakistan. I can't see him doing that because I think he wants to be thorough.

18:50Phil Tufnell: He's not available, is he? No, I don't think he's available. Well, he is, but otherwise he'll have to then, I reckon, have to completely shelve all the other commitments. I think so.

19:00Michael Vaughan: But surely if you're going to sack someone, I mean, you've been in that position. What, being sacked? Well, yeah, yeah. But what I'm saying is, if you're the director of English cricket or the CEO, if you're going to manoeuvre Baz McCollum out of the way, and you know it's happening, it happens in football, let's be honest. You can't tell me that you've not rung a few people before you're sacking someone to just throw the kind of... Give us a clue. You send it out there, don't you? Sort of.

19:31Phil Tufnell: I mean, it was a lovely way to leave the job through Ian McLaren, Lord McLaren. and he was lovely. What do you mean lovely? He was so nice. He wasn't sacked. I think we need to change. You know, it's nice. And that's a lovely way to go. It was lovely. Lots of wine. And would you like to carry on? Well, unfortunately, we don't see it that way. And so I finished there, and in 10 minutes, I'd signed for Sky. So, you know, it all happened very quickly. This is interesting, but Sky contacted you

20:04Michael Vaughan: before you were sacked? Yeah, they were... This is my point. That's it. So, do you think that Rob Key, Richard Gould, over the course of the last two weeks, they knew that they were going to get rid of Baz McCullum? We'd hope. No, I don't think they did. Well, you're telling me they've sacked Baz McCullum and they've got no contingency.

20:23Phil Tufnell: Well, hold on then. Well, why then on the reset, was it just that the way they... That's what I was talking to about earlier. Was it just because of that, the way they played against New Zealand that they've then, you know what I mean? I think it was the fallout. So if England, yeah, it was the fallout. So I don't necessarily reckon they were thinking like that. They were thinking like that. Because if England had beaten New Zealand, everything would have been all right.

20:50Michael Vaughan: Yeah, correct. But this is my point. At the end of the New Zealand Test Series, they've lost the fallout, right? They then go and start playing T20 cricket and they started to win. They started to win. And they've won 4-0. So they're the number one T20 team in the world in the rankings. So they've gone to the top of the table. Yeah. Now, in that period of two weeks, if you're getting rid of Baz McCullum and you know it's coming, and maybe they were trying to leave it to the end of the series, right? Maybe they were leaving it to the end of the series. But surely, if you know you're getting rid of someone, you've got to put the feelers out there.

21:23Phil Tufnell: I don't think they did know it was coming, though, because the whole chat was before New Zealand is that we're having a reset and we're going to go on. If England win that series 2-1, the reset would have begun. So I reckon... Well, he'd have played better for a start. Well, no, so there you go. So the way it panned out very quickly...

21:43Michael Vaughan: No, but that's what I'm saying. In the last two weeks, it's happened. Is that right? The last two weeks, it's happened really quickly. But in that two weeks before you sack your coach, surely... Well, you would have... Because, look, it was leaked because an Australian journalist got it. You know, and then there was an embargo two o 'clock Sunday afternoon. I think there was a bit of a fallout from, obviously, the women's test. They know it shouldn't have come out. But if a journalist in Australia is ringing the ECB saying, by the way, I'm doing a story that Baz McCollum's going to be sacked, they then have to get something out, don't they, to make sure that they're on the front foot.

22:15Michael Vaughan: But I think they were waiting until the end of this series if they were going to do it. So if they knew they were going to, this is my point, if they knew they were going to do it, surely just before you do it... Well, you'd have to. You'd have to ring, look, are you available?

22:27Phil Tufnell: Yes. Who's available? Richard Gould has botched clever and said that we have 10 applicants, two from this country, three from that country. So there would have been an opportunity. Bet fair odds. Can I just say one quick question? 8-11 and if well. Can I just say one quick question? If Stokesy would have gone out there and got 250 and we would have knocked them off and we would have won 2-1, would Baz McCollum have been sacked? No. No, there would have been a reset. The reset has happened. So how then did they know then? And they've lost Ben.

22:59Michael Vaughan: I don't think they did know then. No, I don't. I think it's been in the last two weeks. But they've been winning. I think the fallout from that test loss and the car crash of that Sunday afternoon, which was a shocker, I think, as I said before, I don't know one pundit that after that test defeat at Trent Bridge supported Baz McCollum carrying on. I didn't see anybody supporting that. Lee, give us the odds. Justin Langer, 3-1

23:27Phil Tufnell: Ooh, JL, that would be a change

23:29Michael Vaughan: Stephen Fleming, 4-1

23:30Phil Tufnell: Light Fleming He's a big mate at McCollum's, isn't he?

23:33Michael Vaughan: So they could work together Apparently they sell lamb into India together McCollum and Fleming You could be involved I'm not involved No, but you could be If they're selling lamb into India They could sell your lamb into India Okay Apparently it's quite expensive

23:45Phil Tufnell: Love a lamb chop Love a barnsley chop Both ends

23:48Michael Vaughan: I'm not Are you like a double ender? Get a bag of lamb Come on, I carry up 9-2 Gareth Batty Jonathan Trott your man 6-1 my man yeah yeah he's a good mate of yours 6-1 there's no Richard Dawson on the Betfair odds Andrew Flintoff 20-1 Richard Dawson Darren Lehman 20-1 and I know you've said it off I like your idea thanks Mike I do I think you've come up with a smart idea I do well done Toffers where did you get your research from

24:21Phil Tufnell: when I was when I was talking to him in Australia for ABC. He's in contact with his North Ants coach. So that was part of the reset, wasn't it? To be in contact with the counties. Yeah.

24:38Michael Vaughan: I look at Lehman and think, oh, he's...

24:40Phil Tufnell: Well, you played with him. Oh, he's a genius.

24:43Michael Vaughan: Genius, genius.

24:45Phil Tufnell: I think he's a very, very good coach. Yeah, I just watch him operate with North Ants. Just watch him.

24:50Michael Vaughan: I'll tell you what I'd bring in next to him if you wanted to kind of, Richard Dawson, that outstanding English coach. And if you want the senior pro, because I'll tell you what I'd find hard is, say Richard Dawson is the next best in terms of coming through our system, giving him the test role now with everything that's happened would be four. That's a tough one. But putting a Lehman next to him.

25:15Phil Tufnell: I'm all for a one and two. Yeah. One and a two, just learning the rules.

25:19Michael Vaughan: You've got like Eddie Howe,

25:20Phil Tufnell: with Sam Allardy. You don't want to be Moisey coming off after Sir Alex, do you?

25:26Michael Vaughan: I think if it's Andy Flower, Stephen Flower, full of experience, I think they'll be absolutely fine running the test team. If it's a younger coach that's not got that experience and you've still got Baz with the white, I think that's going to be car crash. That's the bit which you have to get right, isn't it? Knowing Flower, could he work with McCollum and not have total say in everything? I couldn't see that. Do you see your... Right, so could you see a way out for English cricket would be Lehman and a Dawson to run the Test team for a year? Well, that's... I mean, that's what... Like an interim, you know...

26:03That's when Tuffler... Kettertaker! Kettertaker interim! That's why Tuffler's got his ideas from, but I think for a year until the Ashes, because I think it's... If it goes badly wrong for a young English coach, which both Batty, you know with Dawson Anthony McGrath in that mix as well I just think it's I just think it's too hard I think the media won't for some reason the respect of the respect of a senior overseas coach for whatever reason tends to be easy it gets a slightly better drama of Lehman coaching England

26:37Phil Tufnell: next summer I mean with all the time if it were me I would have a very experienced guy at the top with an up-and-coming, well-respected young kid, if it's Dawson, alongside him. And if it were somebody like Andy Flower, he would impart knowledge onto a younger coach because he likes coaching and he'd want that guy to get better. But they have to be able to...

26:59Michael Vaughan: Or I'll throw another one. English cricket's got a few quid. They've spent a load of money in the last few years and you could argue a bit of money's been wasted on stuff. Why not go and say to Andy Flower, I know he's got two more years at RCB, what does it take for you to running this cricket? £25 million. Come on. What would it take for you to give up RCB? How do you get out of a contract? It's all negotiation, isn't it? There's ways and means. It happens in all sports. But I'm saying if the ECB want the best... Well, they'd have to pay RCB out, wouldn't they? They would play hardball. He's the best.

27:37Michael Vaughan: Why would you get rid of it? Why do you want to get rid of it? They don't care about it. If you want the best, it's going to cost. Andy Flower in the last few years in particular, he's been probably the best white ball coach in the world. So why wouldn't you want him to run the whole operation? And I think... And what, give him the whole kit of caboodle? Well, that's what I'm saying. You go to Andy Flower and say, Andy, what does it take to get you to controlling this cricket? But then he'll then bring Mo Bo back with him. And I'd be more than happy about it. What does it take to get the best operators in world cricket to run our game?

28:04Michael Vaughan: It's just how much... And under that, you have Richard Dawson who comes into the system.

28:08Phil Tufnell: And hang on, Rob Key thinks Mo Bobat is sensational. Well, yeah.

28:13Michael Vaughan: And he's left to do... But Mo Bobat and Rob Key can't be in the same room. Right. So... As a job, yeah. They do the same thing. If you want the best in the business, you go and...

28:26Phil Tufnell: Just give him the... There you go. No, is that the enticement?

28:30Michael Vaughan: At least have the conversation. What would it take to get you interested in running English cricket? Wow, there you go. He might just turn around. I'm happy doing... Yeah, absolutely. I'm doing the London Spirit. I have no interest in coming back to English cricket. Absolutely, been there, done that. Yeah, he said, why would I put myself through all that stress? What is he, 58? Why would he? Another coach not mentioned, Peter Moores. He's his third time round, would you have him?

28:55Phil Tufnell: Andy Flow has done it before. Peter Moores is a well-respected coach.

28:58Michael Vaughan: The only difference is Andy got England to number one in the world and won a T20 World Cup in England. And three Ashes. And three Ashes. I think he's a wonderful coach. And there's somewhere in English cricket that I know he's at Knott's that, you know, I don't think we've quite got the best out of Peter Moores. We haven't. I think he's brilliant. I think Peter Moores is brilliant, but he's not. I think you need someone with a big personality who's got to handle the situation.

29:23Phil Tufnell: Well, because it's a big situation you're going into. It's not an easy situation. No, it's this. You need to have a big dust pad and brush. You need a big dust pad and brush to sort that one out. Talking of coaches, a little question for you. Can you name all the coaches who are coaching at the moment?

29:37Michael Vaughan: Around the world.

29:38Phil Tufnell: Yeah. What do you mean?

29:39Michael Vaughan: Walters at New Zealand, McDonald, Australia, Darren Sammy, West Indies.

29:43Phil Tufnell: Yeah.

29:44Michael Vaughan: Galton Gambier, India. Galton Gambier, India. Oh, the chap at South Africa.

29:47Phil Tufnell: Vacancy England. South Africa. Oh, I've got an idea. I've just had another one. It's a Kiwi. Kiwi. Daniel Vittori.

29:56Michael Vaughan: He's going to be doing the sunrises. Oh, thanks. He does Hyderabad in...

30:02Phil Tufnell: In Manchester.

30:03Michael Vaughan: You know he's the Australian assistant coach as well.

30:05Phil Tufnell: Well, no, but wouldn't Mike and Hendo sort of like what have come across?

30:09Michael Vaughan: Him and Baz?

30:11Phil Tufnell: Oh, no, yeah.

30:13Michael Vaughan: Look, it's more complicated now than it was. It's how they get leadership dynamics. I've always thought the best leaders like to control. Yeah. They like that control. You're now asking someone to come and run the test team that ultimately doesn't have full control. Doesn't have full control of the whole operation of English cricket, and I think it'll take a certain time. And I think Darren wouldn't mind that. I think he'd be more than that.

30:38Phil Tufnell: I think he'd go, no, absolutely. This is my little slot, you know what I mean? But I think that's, I think. I think you might have come over. I'll tell you something. Well done, Tophers. Brilliant, mate. It's just being here at that, it's your home, isn't it, Lord? It brings it out of me. It's the atmosphere. It's the atmosphere. Brilliant. Look at him. Huh? Him? Do what? Whoa, whoa. Kim, yes.

31:00Michael Vaughan: Mike, you. No.

31:01Phil Tufnell: I can't wing it.

31:03Michael Vaughan: You can't wing it. organizer kind of business kind of developer more than happy to be involved in stuff but coach no

31:09Phil Tufnell: would you do it sir ali no chance not at the moment not the oh okay i've said it you said

31:16Michael Vaughan: you asked me last year about you asked me about would you ever see yourself coaching or directing i mean coaching i i think coaching is an it's like uh it's an enthusiasm that you wake up in the morning you want to coach you want to get out there get down and dirty with the players organizing managing man but then there's the director's role which is more of a i think it's more of a business role administration role that you're getting everything in place the structure coaching is a completely different skill of course it is well it's getting the best out of people isn't it's making a difference i always think the best coach breaking news coming there at betfair odds alistair cook 22 to 22 22 22 what have you let us know what's filled stuff in the white can you find out that would be here today betfair aren't you really that's not listed not Not listening.

32:02Michael Vaughan: Listen, I'd make a very good coach. Thank you very much.

32:06Phil Tufnell: I'll be a very good coach one day. Ravi Shastri, 50 to 1. Not a bad shout. Worth a couple of... Just for a year? Interim. He knows how to beat Australia.

32:15Michael Vaughan: Absolutely. Just for that interim. I think you're right, mate. Look, they've got 10 test matches to go until the Ashes starts. So it's only 10 games to get it right. It's just as well. We're playing Pakistan late on. Yeah, but Mohamed Abbas with the keeper stood up. How are we going to play him?

32:31Phil Tufnell: Is that down to the coach? Or is it down to the players?

32:34Michael Vaughan: Well, the players have got a coach themselves. That's when you get a good operation. You understand what you're doing yourself. Yeah, forward dinkering, forward dinkering. I think we're in a position with English cricket. Let's be honest, the last six months we've had a lot to talk about. And I think Baz McCullum is lasting legacy of a Test match coach. When is this decision made? They want him in place for the start of the Pakistan series, which starts... That's the first games at Edinburgh. August 22nd, something like that. Yeah, heading for a bit of time. August the 22nd. Six weeks. No better place to start, isn't it?

33:05Michael Vaughan: Great.

33:05Phil Tufnell: I've been invited, of course. Have you got to show me? You covered the coach, I covered the inside. Headingley. You get you back, you could be the Sam Allardice, couldn't you?

33:13Michael Vaughan: Sam Allardice? Who else? Harry Redna, Harry Redna. Pardew. Pardew. Tony Pardew. Tony Pardew. Tony Pardew. Were you in that advert for? Weren't they on an advert? I literally just eat. How good an advert is that? Fabulous. Yeah, so what's your lasting memory of Baz McCullum as a Test coach? Pushing the boundaries. Absolutely.

33:35Phil Tufnell: Resurrecting the joy of Test match cricket. I still remember the start of the Baz ball and everything. I was like, wow, what is going on? Do you remember when you came at tea on day five? Yeah. What, Trent Bridge? No, it's going to be a draw. Yeah, when McCullum took over. No, that's right. Cricket was big news because it was sexy. and they played cricket equivalent to T20. They run out of steam. They had to change and didn't change.

34:03Michael Vaughan: Well, this is top-level sport. You have challenges and you have great ambitions and goals. Sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't. Here are you. I loved every minute of it. I'm sure you guys in the 90s had plenty of front-page news, but this team's given us plenty of action. Oh, you're right, Cookie.

34:27Phil Tufnell: I remember Trent Bridge. We were sitting there, weren't we? You were? I said, no, there's a chance. Oh, here we go again. Right, lads. Then we were ragging out the window. Look at that. Done in half an hour, wasn't it? It could have been worse. We could have been watching Cook and Strauss. Shut the curtains, shut the curtains. Oh, there are curtains in here.

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36:03Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Right, community questions. What is everyone's favourite memory of the basball era of English cricket? I think do you know the biggest the almost that's that crawley shot in the first ball at Edgbiston When he crunched that for there's one moment of life That was extraordinary and the Joe route sweet to all day three first ball day three Yeah, the most talked about dot ball in history of the game

36:36Phil Tufnell: Yeah, didn't didn't Harry bro take Lego middle. Thank you very much. And then charge

36:42Michael Vaughan: My favorite memories little ducky in India when they were back to the war doctor and the day three or day four How many do you want to chase you went the more the

36:57Phil Tufnell: Lasting memory a lasting memory a little ducky stood on the pavement in noosa. Yeah

37:06Michael Vaughan: He's one could he be test match captain little ducky How are we going with the captain, sir?

37:12Phil Tufnell: Don't know, I've been. Ooh. I think, listen, I've been impressed with Harry. Oh, he's a good captain. He's a good captain of White Bull. Why can't he do that? Is that too much to ask? Oh, he's a tough ass to do. Is it all tough ass? Three, four months. Sam Curran.

37:23Michael Vaughan: Sam Curran. Little ducky. Why wouldn't you give it to? Would Andy Flower come in and go, do you know what? I've worked with Jacob Bethel for two years. Oh, that's a big ask, isn't he? I'll mold him into a captain. He said he's just finding his feet. No, I'm just saying, I'm just throwing something out there. I've been impressed with how he put in this white belt. Don't mind that.

37:40Phil Tufnell: Don't mind that. Don't mind that. Young captain. Don't mind that. As long as the coach says, I know this guy, I'm going to work alongside him, we're going to be very close.

37:49Michael Vaughan: Yeah. If Flower comes in, you know, he'll do all the work. He'll make sure the captain's just out there. Yeah. Captain him. We'll have to look into that one in the future. Should this decision have been made in Jan after the Ashes? Yes. Okay. I agree with that as well. Well, it would have been clear, wouldn't it? So yes, we're in a tough place. But can I just say one thing about it? Yes. It does turn around very quickly the other way as well, doesn't it? It doesn't take that long to get things back on track. No. Like, it is, obviously we've just listed, and it probably are all the bad stuff at the minute, but it doesn't take that long to get the ball rolling in the right direction, and the right time, and you get the ball rolling.

38:33The only thing I'll say, Cookie, is, do you know when you've had someone for a while,

38:40Michael Vaughan: it's almost as if the media get bored of that person being in charge. That's a four-year cycle. Yeah, it is a four-year cycle. And I noticed this morning, England have got to number one in the world in T20 cricket. They lose 150 over game and all the headlines in the papers. It wasn't about it, it was McCollum. Yeah. McCollum. McCollum loses again. Well, that's the story, isn't it? Yeah, and once you become the story, it becomes the problem. Well, yeah. I think, Mum, you're right.

39:03Phil Tufnell: There is that sort of cycle, which I don't necessarily think is the right way, you know, but then after what's happened... Arsene Wenger did it for ages. Well, there you go. Then it went sour. Fergie. Then it went sour. Yeah, then it went sour. There comes a shelf life that comes into view very quickly. You're right, very quickly. Ron Atkinson at Wednesday. Clippity clock. Yeah, there you go.

39:27Michael Vaughan: Clippity. Clippity did it a while. There you go. No.

39:29Phil Tufnell: Flower lost his last series 5-0. Three, in the ashes, yeah.

39:35Michael Vaughan: Who is captain? Move on, move on. What might be Baz McCollum's next job? Well, we pretty much know that, don't we? What's that? Baz McCollum's next job is just the whiteboard coach. That is his job, isn't it? That's all, yeah. Is that full-time, 12? Can he not go into a top? Listen, he's a top, that's a good point. Can he be a franchise coach as well?

39:55Phil Tufnell: Yeah, I'm sure he can. Listen, that's what, isn't it? Imagine that. Well, you don't know. Listen, he's a top coach. In my eyes, I think he's a good coach. Yeah, I think he's a good coach. A good coach or a top coach? Well, listen, he'll go back into franchise cricket and coach and do well. Like he's done with the white ball stuff. Number one. All right, needs a little bit of work in the ODI stuff. I think Bubbles right. I think there just comes a time. I bet Andy Flower, in all that he won, didn't do more than four years.

40:26Michael Vaughan: I don't, you played in every game. It won Lourdes, aren't they? They won Lourdes, lost in the last one 5-0.

40:31Phil Tufnell: Lost it 5-0. 9, 10, 11, 12, so in five years.

40:35Michael Vaughan: Right, we'll finish on this one, Croshton. We're at Lourdes, we're here for London Spirit. This year's 100. Who's winning men's and women's? Can I start with men's? Yeah. I'm going Spirit, Andy Flower. Yeah, me too, I like the look of that. That was strong. Andy Flower will win London Spirit, their first trophy. I think, I mean, in my eyes, they're favourites. It depends on pitches. Yeah, and I think Mumbai Indians... Can you win the IFL twice and then... Yeah. Can you just keep on winning? I just think they've got a formula. In the French-Jones cricket, can you?

41:05Phil Tufnell: Well, I don't know. But what you read out, their line-up looks strong. Lots of all-rounders, lots of places. I'm laying it.

41:12Michael Vaughan: I'm laying the bet.

41:13Phil Tufnell: Yeah.

41:14Michael Vaughan: What are you going for? Not the elephants.

41:16Phil Tufnell: No, no, I'm laying that bet. Everyone else. They're fair, it is. Everyone else by them. Anybody by them. Look, I'm laying the bet.

41:21Michael Vaughan: All right, so you're going for the other seven ahead of What about the women? I reckon Leeds Sunrisers are gonna be strong. Why? They were close last year the same team. They got the same similar group.

41:38Phil Tufnell: Who's Nat playing for?

41:40Michael Vaughan: So Trent Rockets plays for the Rockets

41:43Phil Tufnell: Alana King Yeah, strong. I'm going Trent Rockets for the women.

41:49Michael Vaughan: Yeah. Yeah, not far off that There you go, lads. Well done. Watch out for next week's show. Yeah. That's the London Spirits. Mo Bobat did his kartick. That could get lively, talking franchise cricket, particularly with Alistair's views that he hates the IPL, so it could get lively.

42:07Phil Tufnell: Well done, lads. Well done, boy.

42:18Phil Tufnell: This has been a Global and the Overlap production.

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44:21Michael Vaughan: Thanks for listening and thanks to our partners, Betfair. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and you won't miss an episode. And if you want to support the show, please leave us a five-star review and help others find it too. See you next time.