Monty Panesar: Tension With Steve Smith, Warne’s Comments & Ashes Triumph | Stick to Cricket EP 46

0:00Michael Vaughan: Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. Hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

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2:36Phil Tufnell: Hey, just the wrong line.

2:37Sir Alastair Cook: He's got a super perfection.

2:39Michael Vaughan: You said that, Mike. The stomps are on the ground.

2:43Sir Alastair Cook: This technique can get me. Too late, mate. A minute too late. Hey, did you see that lad? Morning. He belongs not. Hey, listen.

2:52Phil Tufnell: He's a proper bowler.

2:54Michael Vaughan: Yeah, lovely little action. Gorgeous. Get yourself on that Lancashire board and sign him. I'm worrying Keezy. I'm worrying Keezy. Oh, look at this lad at Penkridge. Although he's just whispered, you know where he's going to celebrate?

3:06Sir Alastair Cook: He's going to the town.

3:07Michael Vaughan: He's going to Vegas for a week. Oh, is he? He's missing a game. How are you, man? I'm good. Morning, how are you, mate? Yeah, really good, thanks.

3:14Sir Alastair Cook: Nice to see you. How's things? Yeah, really good. Thank you for having me on your podcast. No, that's absolutely fine, mate.

3:20Michael Vaughan: Pleasure to have you. Two massive Luton fans. Were you there at the game? No, I wasn't there. No, I wasn't at Wembley. Geoff was in the stands. Been there this year, Mon? No, not once. So I haven't actually got to one game this year for Luton. But I'm still sending a message to Mick Carford, the chairman. Oh, you can direct message to him, do you? Just WhatsApp. Whenever they do well, just send a little, you know. Well, congratulations. Absolutely.

3:43Sir Alastair Cook: Go on, the Hatters. Up the Hatters. He were a good private guy. Good private guy. Didn't mess about with Mick, did you? No. Sorry. Hard as nails. Hard as nails. Hatters, did they make a lot of hats in Luton? They did, yeah. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They must have stocked for them.

4:00Michael Vaughan: And Stockport. And Northampton's renowned for shoes. Northampton's renowned for shoes. Cobblers. That's why they call it. Cobblers, isn't it? Yeah, Cobblers. Shoebrum used to have a made Richard Richardson, but is it churches? Dr Martins. Dr Martins. We had a lot of churches, I think, in Northampton. Churches? Rob Bailey. Rob Bailey used to make them. Pottery, wasn't it? Pottery. Do you think he was shoes? No, he used to make cups. Oh, did he? He used to stand at square leg with Rob. He'd offer you a cup.

4:25Sir Alastair Cook: Yeah, would he?

4:26Michael Vaughan: He's the only right. King of Spain.

4:29Sir Alastair Cook: Oh, he did King of Spain.

4:30Phil Tufnell: What Rob Bailey did?

4:32Michael Vaughan: Yeah.

4:33Phil Tufnell: Bowling boots, weren't they? Bowling boots. Whiting. Whiting in Northampton. Win it? No. Whiting.

4:40Sir Alastair Cook: He used to make the handmade cricket boots mainly for the bowlers. That's right, I remember them. Mason's did that. Can I have a black coffee? Kangaroo skin. Kangaroo? Kangaroo skin. The only trouble with them, though, Angus used to have them. When it got a little bit wet, they had the leather sole, which then sort of, yeah, but got heavy. He didn't need any heavy legs either, did he?

5:06Michael Vaughan: Remember back in the day, and they still do it now, you get trainer and get the old soul putt on the bottom. They look like I used to do.

5:11Phil Tufnell: When did they win the cup in the 1950s, Luke? They won the cup in the 1950s. Ricky Hill. Oh, no. That was the 80s. The 80s? That was the 80s, wasn't it? Did they win in the final in the 80s?

5:21Michael Vaughan: In the 80s, yeah. Ricky Hill is good, didn't they? I think it was. Yeah. Did Mickey Harford play in that team? Yeah.

5:28Sir Alastair Cook: Luke and Joe, 19... We beat Stockport, won a cup this year. Yeah. Used to play cricket with Mark Steen. Yeah. Yeah, used to play cricket for Middlesex. There was a Brinstein as well, wasn't there? Yeah. You played cricket with him? Yeah, I played cricket with Mark. He was a good little cricketer. What was he? Huh? Little bat. Little bat, great little fielder. Good player. What year? What age were you? I would have been middlesex, sort of like under 13. Did you like playing middlesex under 11? 1959. Did you? 1959. When I was nine. Opened the batting.

6:00Michael Vaughan: No. And bowled left on the seam. Yeah. What do you mean 1959? What did they win? The FA Cup?

6:04Phil Tufnell: FA Cup final. No, Luton Town 1, Nottingham Forest 2. Oh. All right. Sid Owen were captain. Billy Bingham played. He was extended.

6:15Sir Alastair Cook: He was on Strictly with me, Sid.

6:18Michael Vaughan: Ricky. Yeah, Ricky. What's his dog called? Wellard. Yeah, yeah. Wellard. Wellard was right. He plays football with me. Was it Wellard guy? He plays football with you? Yeah, yeah, at the celebrity football game. What, are you still playing? Yeah, I'm up front, mate. up front, set pieces. What regular do you play? Yeah, yeah. I played yesterday. Did you? You better out. I didn't score a goal, but... Where was it at? Near Watford, north-Northwood. What, did you get crowds watching? Yeah, I'd get a few people in. What's this guy, Robert, what was his name? Dean. Yeah, Dean. Dean Gaffney. Dean Gaffney, yeah, yeah.

6:55Dean Gaffney, yeah, that's his dog. Well, I don't know. He played Dean Gaffney. What position is he? He's left mid, I think.

7:01Phil Tufnell: Is he? Did you play? What kind of striker he had? he's bigger than fork think he's a big guy he's a big guy he's a big guy holds it up holds it up well yeah yeah yeah who do you just hold it in and then who do you play against who do you play against who do you play against just like other teams in in in that area you know whatever if we go to different stadiums it's all for charity yeah yeah all for charity so who else is in your team we have Dwayne Chambers alright you know the 60 minute 60 metre winger yeah yeah yeah no no the sprinter the sprinter Yeah, he must have been on the wing game. Yeah, he must have been on the wing game.

7:34No, no, defence, defence. We've got another mastermind moment. I think we'll get a few more. We don't, we, we, this is it. This is going to be your top survival episode.

7:48Michael Vaughan: So who else plays in this football team? I'm intrigued by this. Oh, Spencer Morgan, he plays. Oh, dear Morgan, he's not a bad player, is he? Yeah, he's good, he's pretty good. Long air? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Decent player? I do the running and he does the flair. So you're up front together, eh? I was skipper yesterday. We won. Skipper got the armband on? Got the armband. Who's your keeper? All these years. Oh, it's just like, just... Different people. Different people. Right, OK. Different people, yeah. We get people like from, you know, Married at First Sight, Love Island, all these... Is it mixed?

8:17Phil Tufnell: Is it male and female? Yeah, because some females play as well. All right. Oh, great.

8:23Michael Vaughan: Yeah. And is it competitive or just a bit of a laugh? No, it's quite competitive. Oh, yeah. It's stuck in. What boots you got, Mon? What boots? Oh, let's guess, let's guess. I'm going he'll have Nikes I was going New Balance I reckon you got New Balance No Lidl

8:39Michael Vaughan: Adidas Yes Adidas Not the old ones World Cups or Adidas White Strikes Black Boot What were them Predators Craig Johnson Craig Craig Johnson played for Liverpool he's the Predator Aussie Yeah You were at the snooker as well Mark weren't you Yes I was Which round were you there I was there for the seven o 'clock session. Right. You know. Which round? Which round? OK, I'm stuck here now. Who did you watch? Who were you watching? I was watching Murphy and... The final? The final. I was there for the final. The final? I was there for the final. Who were you with?

9:14Phil Tufnell: Who won that? I was with my wife. Young Chinese guy, wasn't he? Brilliant. Young Chinese guy. Was he 18? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 18, yeah, 22. 22. Yeah, yeah. Wokesy was there, Chris Wokes. I love it. Is that with you, is it? Yeah. They need a left-down spinner at Warwickshire. Ah. There we go. Our 44 could make a comeback. What do you reckon? Easy. Easy. I want to go. I can see Bumble be a good snooker. Bumble, I can see you, mate. I can see you. I mean, we have a village snooker all. Our village, 25 quid a year. Brilliant. I'd love to go to Crucible.

9:46Michael Vaughan: That's one of my little things. I've seen it on it. What's the hardest thing to do, right? Of the three, hole in one, nine darter or a 147? 147. 147? The amount of shots. Yeah. Simple as that. Right. Easy. Easy, dead. Not even close, is it? No, not even close. But could you argue that, you know, a dartboard doesn't move? So that's... Would you say the easiest? It's a snooker table, mate. No, but I'm saying it's like the conditions don't change, do they? Whereas golf, the conditions... Hole in one's easy. It's easy because it's one shot. And also, you can get lucky.

10:20Sir Alastair Cook: Yes. You can't get lucky on a 147. How many shots is a 147? 15 reds. 15 blacks. 15 blacks. Plus the colours. Yeah, so that's... Three, six. Thirty-six. Thirty-six. So that's 36 shots. It's like having 36 goes at an hole in one.

10:39Michael Vaughan: Did I read the other day that Ronnie O'Sullivan was on the front and he didn't take, because the prize money for getting him on four, seven has been taken back. Well, he used to be£147 ,000. £7 ,000, plus the highest breaks. You'd end up at£166 ,000. And now he just goes, no, I'm not giving you the... Well, I think they did a... I sound like a bit of a sneaky guy. He's great, isn't he, Rob? They did a... He was playing Mark King, I reckon he was, and he played a couple of shots, and then he asked the referee how much is a 147 paying. They stopped the game, sat back down, after literally he was on, like, 20 points, and then the...

11:10What's his name? The referee came back and said, I don't know, I think it's five grand. Then got to 140 and then refused to put the black.

11:17Sir Alastair Cook: What else... You sound snooker boys here. Did someone have a break of more than 147? Yeah, Ron. 153. I didn't quite understand that. Free ball, got a free ball. Got a free ball. Why? So if you get a foul, if you can't play both sides of the red and snookered, you can then get a free ball. So you then potted the colour as a red, then potted another black. Got it. And then went for the 1-4-7, then got 1-4-7. We had a bloke in our pub, Vornick.

11:47Phil Tufnell: He said he was the financial director of Rank Xerox, played centre forward for Everton had a 1-4-7 break and a 9-dark finish in all them I said well what are you doing plastering? I wanted a change of direction he said Dazzler Dazzler in the pool I think Gary Lineker he's got a 1-4-7 hasn't he? Has he? I think Gary Lineker's got a 1-4-7 Don't be silly He's good I think he's got a 1-4-7 Has he?

12:17Michael Vaughan: I love you snooker mum Yeah yeah How do you get tickets for the final? Agent. Right. Yeah, yeah. He just said to me, fancy world championship, yeah. I saw off I went. Oh, lovely. That's a good agent. He went like Scolzi. I was listening to Scolzi on his podcast this week and he just went online and bought a ticket and ended up sitting three seats from where Ronnie O'Sullivan was. Oh, wow. He just sat on the front row. He just went on, I think he said paid 450 quid for a ticket. Yeah.

12:42Sir Alastair Cook: I don't mind watching it on the telly, but... I'd like to go there just to say I've been there. Well, yeah, but... I wouldn't even know it was life.

12:49Michael Vaughan: It's not sort of... Get to Sheffield, Phil. It's a magnificent place. It's not sort of action, is it? You must have done the Ali Pali. Done Ali Pali. I played on that. Oh, my God. And the Crucible, it's signed off till 2048, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So we've got 22 more years we can go. We could have a day trip next year.

13:06Sir Alastair Cook: Yeah, but I'm just sort of... I just don't know whether I could... I mean, I actually... Sure, I've got to sit there, aren't you? I'm sort of quiet.

13:11Phil Tufnell: Sorry, Cookie, I'll take you. I'll take you next year. 22 years? 22 years. I'll be 100.

13:15Michael Vaughan: We'll go next year.

13:17Phil Tufnell: Go next year. Yeah, exactly. I'm sure, I'm sure. You've got a big telly. They'll still give you VIPs. We're watching on the telly, a bag of Pringles.

13:23Sir Alastair Cook: They'll give you a VIP entry. That's what I mean. You can't eat Pringles just as Ronnie's breaking off. You can't talk about a bag of crisps.

13:29Michael Vaughan: All right, Ron. No phones in the... Oh, you've got to switch your phone off. Yeah. Right, but how do they check that? Even, that's up to you, like, there was one person in there that the alarm went off, apparently. Oh. Chucked them out. Oh, chucked them out? Straight away, yeah, straight away. And the people, I mean, I've never been to live, are people drinking at the snooker? You can drink, like, during the interval breaks. Do an interval break so you can drink, yeah. Right, yeah. What about the Ali Pali? Now we're talking.

13:55Phil Tufnell: Yeah.

13:55Michael Vaughan: He's been, he's played.

13:56Sir Alastair Cook: He's good at darts. He used to be. He used to be. He was good at darts. I played with Raymond Van Barnabelt. Did you? Yeah.

14:01Phil Tufnell: Did you?

14:02Sir Alastair Cook: You've done everything. Not on balls. Not on balls. Not on balls. No one. A celebrity. What did you get? Yeah, 140? No, I got triple 20, 60, double top. 100. 100. Triple 20. That was my highest. But it's not... 160? Yeah. That was me highest. In three nights? Yeah. And then 11.

14:26Michael Vaughan: 21. Bed and breakfast, 26. I used to love bullseye. Where are you from, Sheffield? Where do you live? Kelvin Flats. Oh, brilliant. And they go home with a speedboat. Oh,

14:41Phil Tufnell: brilliant. Tell us about yourself. Tell us about yourself. Where have you come from? And no, things are not good at the minute, Jim. He says, the wife's left me. the dog's died and been evicted from my house. Super smashing great.

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16:09Michael Vaughan: Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. So just hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

16:21Phil Tufnell: The full Monty. Played 35 test matches and he's still playing his first. Beefy was commentating on it and he said, we've found a doozer. Even I'm finding that funny. I got the trigger in early, saw the length and then... Oh! That's a shot, Monty. I mean, that was epic. I felt a bit guilty and I thought, gosh, I don't know why I went so hard at him. I would have been commentating on that. He was there, wasn't he?

16:51Sir Alastair Cook: I don't remember that one here comes out as a cooker. Tell us about Satchin. He's a good guy. He signed the ball, said once in a blue moon, mate, never again. With all the tables going, in your head, in your head, Monty, Monty. That's right, wasn't it? It was very mental.

17:16Michael Vaughan: What about you two here? I've got... Both made your test debut in Nagpur. Yeah. All right. Both left-handed. Yeah. Correct. Both support Luton. Yeah. And both took your maiden test wicket against India. Yeah. Well, there's a city there. Both went to school in Bedford. Yeah. Went to the same school? No, no. He went to the rival. I went to Bedford Mould and he was at Bedford School. So you were at the... No, he was probably... Was he the posh school? Slightly more posher than Bedford Mould. Was yours posh? Yeah, mine was still a private school, yeah. Oh, fantastic. Did you play cricket against him?

17:45No, I didn't. No, I didn't. One became a sir and the other one is waiting to be knighted. There you go.

17:51Michael Vaughan: I think you're on the right track, yeah? I'm on the right track. What are you going to be knighted for? Services to mastermind. That's it.

18:02Phil Tufnell: Poor at general knowledge. So when King Charles knights me, I said, why are you here? I said, my general knowledge is poor, mate. Thank you for the knighthood. Who was the question, chap? Who was asking the questions? Ask Monty. Oh, it was...

18:15Sir Alastair Cook: The greyhead fellow.

18:16Phil Tufnell: Oh, you know, Humphreys.

18:17Sir Alastair Cook: Channel 4. Yeah, Humphreys. Oh, yeah, well, there you go. John Humphreys. John Humphreys. Yeah, yeah. Mr Humphreys. Mr Humphreys.

18:23Michael Vaughan: Can we recreate it? Come on, there, let's do it. Come on, let's do it. Can we recreate it? Yeah, let's do it. Come on. Right, Monty. OK. What's your name? Do-do. Sir Alistair Cook. Specialist subject. Balls, you're special. Cricket. Cricket. Was it? I don't know, what was it? Seek and its history, wasn't it? What was it called? Seek and its history. OK, OK. Which 1997 film do a group of unemployed men in Sheffield become strippers for a night at their local working men's club? Oh, gosh. The Full Monty! Did you get that one right? No, I'll say Dream Boys. You'll say the Dream Boys. In which city is the Olympic Stadium built for the 1972 Olympics and where Germany's national football team played?

19:10Michael Vaughan: Munich. Correct. What did you say on the show? Athens. There you go. Listen, listen. Listen, same... It's the same continent. It's in Europe.

19:20Sir Alastair Cook: Yeah, it can happen. That's right. Monty, I've been there many times. When the lights are on... It's tricky. It's tricky. It is. It's quite brave to go on it, then, Monty. Yeah, it is.

19:30Michael Vaughan: I went on it. What did you guys do? Premier League football. Premier League football? Yeah, yeah. Did you get any right? Yeah, I did all right in football. General knowledge? Oh, general knowledge, isn't it? I would know. I'll tell you what I'd have.

19:43Sir Alastair Cook: Playboy from 1989.

19:49Michael Vaughan: Here you go, Mon. In an 1819 poem, what season of the year does Keats describe as a season of mist and mellow fruitfulness?

20:01Michael Vaughan: What did you say? What was your answer? Can I have 50-50? Bumble, do you know the answer to that, mate? I'm going to say September. Monty's answer? Oliver Twist. Oliver Twist.

20:15Even I'm finding that funny.

20:22It's a mess. Here you go, man.

20:27Michael Vaughan: Which city is the television comedy series Cheer Set? Oh, gosh. Which city? London. London. No, Boston. Boston. Monty's answer. Go on. America. It's a big city. There you go. Oh, good on you for going on. Good on you for going on. Oh, mate. All right, come on, let's get some cricket chat. Tell us, how did you get into cricket? Oh, I was... Basically, my dad used to play cricket at Luton Tech College and he was an all-rounder and I used to do the scoring during his, you know, Saturdays. Oh, score. As a 10-year-old, yeah. Yeah. Right. And then I used to do scoring and then that's how I got into it.

21:12And then I think my dad sort of like said, you're getting a bit, you know, podgy, you're getting a bit overweight as a 10-year-old. So why don't you go and, you know, do some coaching, not coaching, go and train on a Sunday at Luton Town in India. And then I started to do that. And my dad's best mate, Hitu Naik, he was, you know, the coach there. And then from there, I just got into cricket, really.

21:33Michael Vaughan: Were you always... Yeah, ball. Because there's a lot of left arm... Like, Ashley Giles was left arm quick. You put a left arm quick, yeah. Were you always a left arm spinner? No, no, no. I always wanted to be a left arm seamer. When I saw Wazzy Macram bowl that over against, got Alan Lamb and Chris Lewis out, I thought, yeah, I want to become the Wazzy Macram. And then soon when I got to 15, Paul Taylor was our coach at Bedfordshire under 15. Paul Taylor was the excellent England and Northampton left arm. Yeah, it was him and Tony Pemberthy. And then he said to me, listen, you've got no chance of becoming a seamer.

22:03Try left arm spin. So, like, you know, in life, you need people to give you the right advice at the right time. And Paul Taylor was there. He gave me the right advice. And he said to become a left-arm spinner. And the next game against Worcestershire under-15s, I took seven for 35 at Royal Grammar School. Right. Bowling the tweakers. Yeah, yeah. And that's why I say Paul Taylor, he's the Messiah of cricket for me. Because if he never gave me that, I probably still probably would have been, you know, playing second. Shondell it in, bowling left-arms. All these swingers trying to reverse it at 60 miles per hour.

22:33I mean, he ain't stupid. Look at the size of Monty's fingers. Look at him. I mean, they are... You've got massive hands. And that must give you a massive heart to spin it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big advantage. Because, you know, get my fingers over the ball and then, you know, trying to get the seam position. Your hands are huge. Yeah, yeah. I think my strength was I was able to bowl with pace and get it to turn. Yeah. And now you see, like, you know, like Nathan Lyon, as he's getting, you know, longer into... The longer he's gone into his career, the quicker he's bowling. So you see a lot of spinners now bowl it quicker and trying to turn it.

23:05Phil Tufnell: Didn't commentators say when you first started, he's got to drop his pace, he's bowling too quickly? But that's your asset, isn't it? Yeah. From the size of you, from the height, drive it in and spin it and be accurate. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Bowl it with pace and then trying to get it to turn. That's the key. So you can keep the batsman in the crease. Did a wicket keeper, did you work with a keeper on pace? You know, your pace is great. You know, that's it. Keep it going. Keep it at that. slow it down a little bit. Did any sort of wicket-keeper work with you? Yeah, like, you know, Geraint Jones was quite good, you know, telling me, like, the right pace for the pitch, maybe bowling a little bit slower to get it to turn more.

23:43Matt Pryor was quite good as well. James Foster at Essex, you know. So, you know, they were good. Chris Reid as well. So they all engaged, you know. You get a feel, don't you?

23:52Phil Tufnell: What about at North Ends? Because it was Swan and Panesar. So you were playing on pitches that are rag. and so you need a partner, which was Swan. You're accurate on a pitch that it's down to us too. That must be you two as captains. If he has to deliver, which he had to, him and Swan, they have to deliver. So you know mentally that they're ready to play.

24:15Michael Vaughan: If there was any action in the pitch, he was a genius. Old Trafford was a ground you loved, didn't you? Because you just knew that he could just land it. Land it with good pace, get a bit of bounce. Your first two years, it was unbelievable, wasn't it? You were still skipping, weren't you? Just come in and just the control that Monty had. Was DRS just started? It started around then, yeah? It was just around there. So Monty's skill was just pitching on the stumps at a good pace, as Bumble's already said, and the odd one straightening. Didn't you get Sachin first as your first test wicket? Yeah.

24:47Wicket to wicket, straight on, done on his front pad, and then he ragged it. I think spinners now, if I was a spinner now,

24:55Sir Alastair Cook: you'd just bowl at the stumps. and if the odd one does a little bit, you're in business because you're just looking to blow a front pad off, really, like a seamer, almost.

25:02Phil Tufnell: So did Monty take over from you as left-arm spinner? Jylo. Jylo a little bit, wasn't he? Jylo. Jylo was sort of in and out when you were the preferred left-arm spinner. No.

25:14Sir Alastair Cook: No. I think Jylo came after me.

25:18Phil Tufnell: Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, you were the main... You finished in 99, didn't you? In South Africa. No, no, you played after that. No, you played under... Did you play under Duncan Fleck? Yeah, but in South Africa.

25:30Sir Alastair Cook: In South Africa.

25:31Phil Tufnell: And then you didn't play again? No. Well, I played one test after that. Duncan, yeah, in 1999. That was it. That was my first tour. That was your first tour. Gavin Hamilton. Yeah, that's right. Darren Maddy, Chris Adams. Yeah.

25:45Michael Vaughan: Mon, if you look back at your career, and you talked about Paul Taylor, he obviously had a big impact. Do you look at your England career and feel that you got enough help? I think with my England career, I think, you know, you were quite good in terms of encouraging me to celebrate. Quite good. That's all he was good at. He was quite good. Make sure he had a celebration. Yeah, yeah. He was lucky. He had great, great, great players to captain, right? No, but on a serious note, like, yeah, I think you encouraged that and helped me embrace it. And also, you're probably right. I could have got maybe a bit more external help.

26:20Maybe I could have gone, you know, back to, like, the likes of John Embry, Nick Cook, who knew me when I was 16, 17, and just maybe gone, you know, trying to go back to them when I was struggling a little bit. So, yeah.

26:33Michael Vaughan: What was the main thing that you were struggling with? Probably sometimes just like, look, I remember my dad saying to me, he goes, you needed like a mentor with you, you know, like someone just outside of the game who could sit down. Maybe, you know, even like Phil was there, just that one-to-one, you know, chat. As tough as your mentor. Phil probably said to me, look, man, what are we doing tonight? Where are we going? No, no. We've spoken about it on this show that, you know, I'm a big believer, particularly now, that you as a cricketer, I mean, they've got a pile of cash. I'd want my own kind of coach away from the England management.

27:08Michael Vaughan: It is the England management, that's fine. But I would want personally my own person that I check in with on a regular basis.

27:13Sir Alastair Cook: I think with Monty as well, it was just about confidence, wasn't it? because you bowl, you bowl, don't you? You kind of know you're bowling. OK, sometimes if you're bloody not quite getting there or not following through, you kind of got your... You knew you're bowling. It's just sometimes you need someone with you just to sort of like, how are you feeling, what are you doing, how's it going, you know what I mean? Yeah, and I think my dad at the time, he was just saying that maybe he should have, you know, someone who's commentating in the game or someone who's played the game but has retired, just trying to connect with someone like that, you know, where you can just sort of...

27:46You know, like you had Gucci, you know, to support you. And I think at the time, maybe someone like Nasser Hussein, you know, who probably, you know, just Captain England, knew the system really well and trying to sort of say, look, Monty, this is what you need to do. This is what's not going right. Do you know what I mean?

28:02Sir Alastair Cook: But you're not going to then try and bowl a doosera or something? No, you're not going to sort of... No, no, no, nothing like that.

28:08Phil Tufnell: That kind of support, I think, yeah, would have been a lot helpful. But equally, you need... I know, Monty, you're not doing this, you're not doing... Monty, that's great. Brilliant. Just keep that... And that's what Vornie was brilliant at. Yeah. Yeah, he was absolutely brilliant. Just somebody who you can trust in and sort of have a chat.

28:25Michael Vaughan: Yeah, yeah, away from the set-up. Away from the set-up. Vornie came out with quite a strong comment, didn't he? Yeah. I can't... He said something about you. He played 35 Test matches and he's still playing his first. Yeah.

28:38Phil Tufnell: Did that have any effect on you personally? Well, he wouldn't hear it for a start.

28:41Michael Vaughan: No, but it was everywhere, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. It makes strong headlines. Yeah, the British media saw him as the Messiah of cricket, really. Whatever he said was gospel. And then they kind of, like, exploded it in the media. I wish I took him out to pizza or something. You know, he likes his pizza or something. And then all wheels out... Did you ever have a chance to sit in the game? No, I wanted to have that time away from him, you know, away from the game where we could... If we just sat down one-to-one on a cup of coffee or whatever it was, then if he said that to me, look, Lamont, you know, you're just bowling the same way.

29:12You're not really thinking how to go get batsmen out. Maybe try to do different things. Or maybe, you know, the techniques are go and chat to your captain, have a bit of a timeout, you know, change the field. Did it affect you, his comment? I think, yeah, I think it's... I think the media were looking at every little variation where I was naturally... You know, as a spinner, you naturally drag it down, you naturally ball it slower. Pitch. Pitch. Pitch. Yeah, every pitch doesn't have the same pace. You naturally work these things out. Sometimes you don't know how to explain it. But I think at the time, it probably, yeah, it probably affected me because everyone's just talking about variation, you know?

29:49Even my friends who never know anything about cricket, they go, how's your variation going? I was like, great.

29:56Sir Alastair Cook: It's true, though, it's true, though, because, you know, when I was playing, you know what I mean? We had Warne, Moorley, Sacklane, you know, everyone was looking for this doozoroo and bloody this-oroo and everything. You had to be a mystery spinner, wasn't it? You had to be a mystery spinner. But it's also what happens when you play international cricket. Monty's great strength was you land the ball in the same spot all the time. So your first couple of years, you faced people the first time and people were respecting that. You settled into your rhythm and then you'd either rag one pass or don the pad.

30:28And suddenly, well, how do you counter that? So obviously, if you're playing against Monty, when I played against him, I was like, I'm going to try and put Monty under a bit of pressure because that's when he's not at his strongest. and that's where it's so hard at international sport. You flew for the first three years, then suddenly there's that balance, and then Swanee came along as well. So you get so many external things which happened to Monty at his career, but to me, it will always ever be those two best spinners in India in 2012.

30:57Michael Vaughan: Absolutely.

30:57Sir Alastair Cook: Do you remember, so there was an obsession

31:00Michael Vaughan: with this mystery when the Sackling was balled, and Murali was balled, and these doucers. Couldn't stand it. Do you remember we picked Alex Loudon? On one ball, Beefy went, oh.

31:08Sir Alastair Cook: That was one ball. Alex Loudon.

31:10Michael Vaughan: He went on that Pakistan. He did, because he bowled a ball in cricket that went the other way. Yeah.

31:14Sir Alastair Cook: And Beefy, I think Beefy was commentating on it. He said, we've found a doozer. Get him in. Get him in. Get him in. Yeah, Alex Loudon batted a bit as well, wasn't it? I can remember watching the game. Didn't he... Something happened. Go out with... Someone posh. Kate Middleton's sister.

31:35Michael Vaughan: Pepper. I think he might have done, yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think you're right there, yeah. Alex Loudon. I think he's from good stock, Alex. He's a good lad. Yeah. I think he's done right for himself. I think he might have gone into the city. There we go. There we go. LAUGHTER

31:51Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. So what about your kind of recollection of playing for England? Is it a great joy or do you look back and think, there was a little bit that I left out there? I think it was great joy, you know, because every time I took a wicket, I celebrated, maximised, you know, how lucky I was playing for England and then just enjoyed every moment. But then maybe, you know, things for me was when things weren't going so well and if I wasn't able to take wickets, then what does, you know, what do I bring to the team? Because, you know, I wasn't known for my batting and fielding, obviously.

32:28You know, you have your sort of clumsy moments at times as well.

32:32Michael Vaughan: I mean, I obviously wasn't the greatest fielder myself, but my hands are tiny. What about the size of your hands? I know, this is what I'm thinking. You should have been good at catching. Just grab them. I know, I know. I should have been good at catching.

32:44Phil Tufnell: You must remember that time as a batter against Australia. Cardiff with Jimmy Anderson. I mean, that was epic. We were working. I've never heard. That was unbelievable.

32:54Sir Alastair Cook: I have never heard a louder roar for a length in my life. 50 minutes.

32:59Phil Tufnell: Talk us through that partnership. 50 minutes. Talk us through that partnership. One of the ashes. Yeah, that was basically what Andy Flower said at the time, was we need the tail to bat longer. So he said, you need to find your batting buddy. And mine was Paul Collingwood, and he goes to me, against the quick bowlers, make sure your bat lift is short, and then when it's at the stumps, just protect it, and if it's short, just drop your hands. I don't care if it hits your face, hits wherever. You've got your helmet on, you're not going to get out. That's a good coach, isn't it? Yeah. So that's all he did, and I thought, let me just remember these two points, and let's see if I can get through it.

33:33So what was Jim like at the other end? Jimmy was saying, I'll take the spinners.

33:40Is that right? He goes, let me take the spinners, you take the seamers. And he goes, I'll take... Marcus North.

33:48Michael Vaughan: Marcus North. They should have bowled Michael Clarke a bit more. Yeah, they should have done. I'll have Marcus North. You take Mitchell, Johnson and Siddle. Yeah, yeah. No, Hilfenhaus. Johnson.

34:00Sir Alastair Cook: Yeah, no, but who was the... Johnson, Hilfenhaus and Siddle. Yeah, Hilfondhausen. Hilfondhausen.

34:06Michael Vaughan: Yeah. Never heard Raws like him. Jimmy Anderson faced 69 balls. Monty's 37. Yeah, good one. It was a real countdown, wasn't it? You were counting balls now. And how long's it going to go on? And also the runs scored were important, weren't it? Because you took off ten minutes.

34:23Sir Alastair Cook: I think you squirted a four somewhere. I think you might have cut. To go past it. Yeah, it was. You took a single. Do you remember that? Cut. Play that cut. Show us the cut.

34:36Michael Vaughan: Who was bowling? Marcus North. Marcus North. He surrounded the bat, didn't he? Yeah, yeah. So they had everyone there. Ricky Ponting, Clarky Hussey, all of them sort of thinking, come on, get Monty out. And thought, Marcus North coming on the part-timer, happy days. Let's put all my boots in. What was your base of thought when you're facing us? So here, bend the knees, you know, get your triggers in early. So I got the trigger in early, saw the length, and then... Oh! That's a sharp one, C. Can we recreate the dive as well? Do you remember that? No, I was having a single. Not with his pink pants.

35:12You took a single and then dived and still short. He dived and still short!

35:18Michael Vaughan: Remember that? Remember when you took the single and you dived and you were still short? Yeah, New Zealand. Oh, was that not that game? No, it wasn't that game. That was me and Pryor trying to save a test match there. Come on, sit back. Come on, sit back. Get back in the chair, Mon. God, I swear that was Australian. You were in the dressing room in Cardiff. Who was that? It was... What was the 12th man called? Bill Al. Bill Al. Bill Al kept running up. I know. Here he comes again.

35:48Sir Alastair Cook: Who was the physio, the Aussie? Oh, gosh. The Smiley Melon. No, we had an Aussie physio. Is it Steve? The Smiley Melon. Right, and his massive hero was Ricky Ponting. Like, I like him, Aussie. Anyway, we sent him out, ran on. It was Steve McKay, as his name was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And literally Ricky called him every name under. Sprayed him, did he? Sprayed him. And then for the next week, it was like... Sorry. Next week, it was like in one of the papers, where's Steve popping up? He was behind Obama in a press conference.

36:17Michael Vaughan: Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Yeah. Would you have that? I mean, winning in India would be right up there as well, would it? Yeah, winning in India, first time, I think it was 27 years. And he was first captain, right? First tour. So, yeah, that was massive, that win. But the Cardiff one is probably my finest hour in an England shirt, 100%. With the batting. Well, I'm not known for my batting, am I? My batting average is, I don't know, 4.89 or something like that. What's yours? 5.1.

36:48Phil Tufnell: Who's the best batter you've bowled against? Who's the best player? Yeah, I'd probably have to say Sachin, you know. Just the way, yeah, when he comes out to bat. but left-handers, the best ones, you know. Like someone, you know, I remember Gilchrist, he took me to the second innings, he hit me for four sixes. That was in Perth, wasn't it? Perth, yeah, when I got him out second ball and I thought, well, you know. Did you get him out second ball? Yeah, second ball, but he barely caught him and then he came in and scored a...

37:14Michael Vaughan: You got Fyfer, didn't you? You came into the England side, you got Fyfer in the first innings. Tell us about Satchin. Do you know him? Yeah, very well. You know, he's a good guy. He signed the ball, you know, said, once in a blue moon, mate, never again. And then when Lord Stephen Buckner gave him out, I got him to sign it again. That blue moon comes more often than I thought. Isn't that right? Yeah, brilliant. How many times did you get Sachin? Four times. Four times. Have you got four balls? No. The one I got in Mumbai twice, I thought, I don't know if I should get him to sign it. You got one.

37:49Michael Vaughan: You got 100 in Mumbai. Is that 2012? No, was it Kev? Oh, yeah, and Kev got one. Yeah.

37:55Phil Tufnell: Did you play against Virat or not? Yeah, yeah, got him out at extra cover, caught, you know, when he wasn't at his best, you know. Don't say that. No, no, but when he was a youngster, I'm thinking.

38:07Michael Vaughan: So the best right-hander you're bowled to is? Sachin. Sachin. Sachin. And who's the best player that you're bowled to, would you say, across the left hand and the right hand? I think the hardest for me has been Graham Smith. Right. Yeah, I could never get him out, man. Big lad. Big. Him, Matthew Hayden. Yeah, big lad. Myles Tester, Edgbaston, a 208. You had him out. Yeah. I'd have caught short leg. If that was given out, we would have won that test match and you wouldn't have given your decision to retire. No, I'd have played one more game. No, you would have kept on going. No, I was always finishing that side.

38:36Michael Vaughan: Really? Yeah, yeah. Oh, right. Who caught him? Who caught my short leg? Because I might have been at short leg. I think it was you. Yeah. I was at... I don't remember. I'd definitely been at short leg. I was at 45. It's part of the rough, straight off his glove. Yeah. And he got... What did he get? He played bloody well. Who's umpire? Buckner, I reckon. No, no. Alim Dar. I remember It was a shocker He wouldn't have been on 50 was he? Would he? No 50?

38:57Phil Tufnell: He's a good umpire He ragged as well He ragged there I think Dye's a good umpire Fair dues I mean I've umpired And you know On the glove Oh come on The glove out there It goes off quick It goes quick Yeah Hands are out in front of you He was bowling great I remember the worst one Was that Indian 2007 You were a used skipper there Yeah When Buckner didn't give out The left Right It was light wasn't it it was getting darker and darker about the rain, and there were nine down, and Monty... At Lord's? At Lord's. Yes! Shreeshunt. It was middle of the middle, and Button had been given them all series, didn't he?

39:32He gave them, and then for that one... It's not an easy job. It's not. I don't know how he couldn't give them. I know. You're right. It's too serious. Yeah, we ought to have won that series.

39:42Sir Alastair Cook: Monty's right about big lefties, though. You can't sort of see a way past them, you know what I mean? They just sort of fill up your whole vision. And also you think... You think of the rough as well, don't you? How do I work? Graeme Smith. You have to, as a left hand... I'm talking first dig. And they have a longer stride. Because I reckon when it's ragged, yeah, because then you... As a left hand, you have to attack them.

40:05Michael Vaughan: I remember bowling, I think, Jarlow in 2004, bowling to Graeme Smith in Cape Town. We had one fielder on the offside. Well, because he had shot face. One fielder. Shot face? Didn't even have a slip. No. Because I had a wide mid-off.

40:18Phil Tufnell: Didn't you get such a intendant?

40:20Michael Vaughan: Yeah, I've got a ball as well. It wasn't that hard.

40:24Phil Tufnell: Did you get a sachet?

40:25Michael Vaughan: Yeah. What did he write on your ball? Just his name. I didn't want anything else. No, no. I didn't want anything else. Got the stump as well. I brought it in. Yeah, you did. Have you got him out any time?

40:36Sir Alastair Cook: I've got him. I didn't play against him much. I only played him on that tour. I've got him out once. Once.

40:41Phil Tufnell: Four. Four. This sounds like Fred Truman. When Brian Johnson asks Fred Truman, who's the most difficult batsman you've ever played against, and he said, the great Wally. Oh, the great Wally. He said he was the most difficult batsman. And Bill Frindle piped up. He said, I'm not surprised you never played against me.

41:02Michael Vaughan: Like this. So you've got your 2009, great moment, India away. Yeah. Been on two Ashes trips. And we won. Yes. Yeah. Cook could never get him out. Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Cook, you scored 700, didn't you? 517 for one at the Gabba. 267 not out. Better? Over 500 runs, wasn't it? 700, I think. 700, yeah. 760.

41:28Sir Alastair Cook: You want two ashes down? No. Oh, he didn't. I was 12th man and I just sat in Brisbane. Don't worry, man, you're there. Yeah. So they said, like, oh, Cookie was back in my world. He goes, no one moved. I didn't move for two days.

41:44Phil Tufnell: 517 for one, second innings. And one lone voice. from the crowd. There's a field set and there's a little fella that is stood between the non-striking batter and the umpire. He's stood in a catching position, one bloke from the crowd. Good thinking, Ricky. The last catch that went to Silly Mid-On was a hundred fucking years ago. It's bound to be another one soon. It bled through the microphone. Fabulous.

42:19Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair.

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43:36Michael Vaughan: What about 5-0 defeats in off? Those trips are... No, those trips are hard because, you know, oh, what, the first one we went to? Six, seven. Yeah, six, seven. I remember Duncan Fletcher saying, he goes, you take the three big, you know, Warne and McGrath and Justin Langer, when they retired, Australia struggled. That's the same thing happened with us because you wasn't there, Truskothic allowed to leave. He was... Simon Jones. Simon Jones. Gilo. Gilo. You know, that's like a massive chunk. I'll be honest with you, man, I still think we'd have got Ahmed. I think that was a 6-7. The Mozzies had a...

44:15Michael Vaughan: No, but you did well in 2002, 2003. 2002, yeah, but I just think the Mozzies, they had that... Good side. They had a bit between the teeth after 2005. They were like, right, all right, all right. Yeah, you've had your moment. Now, we'll show you who's boss. Very good side. Yeah, very good side. What now, Mon? What's kind of getting you up in the morning? Yeah, now, just, yeah, look, obviously, I'm still trying to... I'm developing my media career, which I'm doing quite well in India. I'm just trying to sort of see if I can develop it in the UK. Right. And I've got like a YouTube channel that I'm building up on.

44:52You've got your own YouTube channel? Yeah, a YouTube channel where I did, I think I remember talking about Steve Smith on my YouTube channel. And I think that my producer at the time, who's still with me trying to develop our YouTube channel, he said, let's watch the press conference. and when I watched the press conference of, you know, when he was obviously admitting to what happened and obviously had these tears and he was crying and everything, I looked at it and I thought, I felt a bit guilty and I thought, gosh, I don't know why I went so hard at him in Australia, you know? But it's just to build up all the ashes.

45:26So you just get sucked into the, oh, I'm going to...

45:29Michael Vaughan: Do you know what you said, Mon, was Ben Stokes and the England team have got to make Steve Smith feel guilty and play on that. Say something like, I don't think it's ethical that he's the captain. I don't think he played the game fairly. That was your quote. And then Steve Smith, remember that press conference where Steve came in and just suddenly, anyone that believes that Athens is in Germany, Oliver Twist is the season of the year and America is a city, doesn't really bother me. That was Steve Smith's reaction. Did you play with him as well at Sussex? No, I didn't play with him. I think I got him out at Adelaide.

46:05I remember that.

46:06Michael Vaughan: But Monty, do you know what your response on X was? Yeah, I know. To Steve Smith, we've both made mistakes. I made mine on a quiz show and he, Steve Smith, made his on a cricket field. Well, strong. Strong one. Well.

46:21Phil Tufnell: Your original statement there, Monty, did you write that or did somebody write it? No, no, I obviously came up with that one. But then now looking back at when we did that thing, I thought, what would he say? If I see him, I'll say, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say that kind of stuff. And have you seen him? Yeah, no, I don't think he wants to see me.

46:37Michael Vaughan: Have you messaged him? No, I haven't got his number. I've got it. I'll message him then. Listen, listen, after day one... Shall we do a FaceTime now? Listen,

46:48Sir Alastair Cook: after day one, back in our hotel, all the Barmy Army, we was all in the bar at Perth. Yeah. They were all on the tables. Kieran was there. Yeah, yeah. We were all on the tables going, In your head, in your head, Monty, Monty. That's right, wasn't it? It was a bit mental. And then next day, we'd lost. Yeah, but in the first innings, he had play and misses 50%. So I think something did affect him because, you know, going in there. Normally in Australia, it's play and misses only 10%. But you're right, after that, it was all dead and buried. It's only a game of cricket.

47:26Michael Vaughan: Only a game. It's only a game of basketball. So your YouTube channel is, what, do you do it weekly? Yeah, just trying to, like, every couple of weeks, trying to do that. Trying to build my maybe bit more career in the UK if I can, you know, trying to just, you know, obviously, you know, being a world-class spinner for England and, you know, can talk about the game quite well and from a spinner's perspective and then, you know, gradually from there trying to, you know, build it up if I can more in the UK.

47:51Sir Alastair Cook: I've seen you doing the pitch report. I saw you doing the pitch report. Was that in India? Yeah, that was in India. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got degrees as well, man, because you're quite clever as well, aren't you? Yeah, yeah. I went back to uni, did a Masters in, you know, of sports journalism at St Mary's University. You went to uni first time as well. What did you do? Computing and management. Yeah. There you go.

48:14Michael Vaughan: Can't even turn them on. So it's media, YouTube, trying to get an opportunity in the UK. Any coaching? Yeah, trying to do coaching. Obviously, you still play on a Saturday. Yeah, I still play on a Saturday. You know, got three for this weekend. Did you? What number did you bet? A seven. Oh! I got a first baller. No shit, Sherlock. Did you play a massive drive? No, I was trying to play on the up, short boundary, and it got caught and bowled. Did you win? Yeah, we won. Who's this for? Penstrel Cricket Club. And is it a full season? It's a Staffordshire League, yeah. Premier League? The guy who got six...

48:51The guy who got, yeah, on week four, we got six... Six, yeah, yeah.

48:56Michael Vaughan: He's got a good action, that kid. Yeah, Miles, yeah, good bowler. Good action. How's your body playing cricket? Is it fine? It's all right, he's recovering well, he's doing good. You know, trying to keep myself fit. And do you play because you just love playing? Yeah, I love playing. I love being part of, you know, cricket and just love being involved. Yeah, I absolutely love it. Do you live up there now? I live in Leicester now. OK.

49:19Phil Tufnell: Do you play in the PCA Legends? Is that still going? Yeah, yeah, still play in the PCA Legends. Embers is still playing. He plays for lashings. That must be good stuff to meet up with a guy who he played with and against. and you have a yarn in the... That dressing room must be great. Yeah, it is, it is. It's good to catch up with all the England guys and then have a good laugh and crack.

49:40Michael Vaughan: We've been discussing this England selection for June, New Zealand. Oh, come on, let the magic pick the sides. Well, we've kind of got, at the minute, Emilio Gay kind of ahead with the way that he scored runs. The rest picks itself now, top seven. Spin options. You know, we've got Jack Leach, Will Jacks. Jack Leach has got a neck problem. Not sure how long he's going to be out. Will Jacks, Mason Crane, leg spin, coming to the equation. Where are you going and what are you looking for for England's spinner? Well, it's interesting because you may want to go for a finger spinner. So, I don't know, maybe the Durham guy come, you know, Parkinson could be an option because he's bowling good overs and he's going out of low economy.

50:20Let's see how the next couple of rounds, if he can pick up a few more wickets. But I think Mason Crane could be the option because he got 100, I think, one of the games and he's picked up 10 wickets and he's bowling really well. And we don't know what he's like in England. We know what Jack Leach is like. I think that could be a good option. If Basher's not bowling so well, I think maybe Mason Cray.

50:40Michael Vaughan: Do you go back to the Ashes, where I think it's the lowest amount of overs that's been bowled in an Ashes? I mean, Nathan Lyon wasn't picked in Australia, which is remarkable when you think about his record in Test Match Cricket. Is the art of spin kind of dying out in Test Match Cricket? Yeah, look, I think if in Australia and in England, if we're not using spinners as a major first innings weapon to take first inning wickets, then, yeah, it's going to gradually die out. Like the dodo, it'll get extinct. We won't see specialist spinners. The dodo. I never thought we'd have the dodo on the show.

51:20Phil Tufnell: The dodo. Yeah, it'll get extinct. When you fit with Bashir, Bashir has not been able to get a county and then Garbyshire have taken him. He's got some wickets. He's done okay, hasn't he? How did he do this week? That's all this week. Where do you sit on Bashir? I think with Bashir, I think he needs a whole season of county cricket, you know, where he just takes 40 to 50 wickets, gets to know his game better and not maybe rely on, let's say, Ben Stokes giving him these extravagant fields to get wickets. Like, you know, I just think that he needs a proper season of county cricket.

51:54Sir Alastair Cook: Well, he might need a couple. Yeah. But he's got a find his own game. He's got to find his own game and that's why I think that he's slightly lost his consistency didn't he? He gets knocking around here. How do you get consistency, Phil, when you're so young? Well, no, but just by bowling but then also you've got to find out what works for you on any given day, on any given pitch. You can see it almost going older on him. He's got like five footers and bowled really well but it's always been a bit of a mixed bag. Well, that's why I like what you say He was like, one out there, one there, or one slip.

52:28Sir Alastair Cook: You know what I mean? It's like, what the...? One over there, there. Five for 15 or eight overs.

52:34Phil Tufnell: Yeah, yeah. To you two, he wasn't balling maidens. No, absolutely. Didn't ball maidens. Yeah. He gets knocked around. So getting back to Shane Warham, ball maidens, take wickets, is what he used to say. Yeah, and that's why someone like Cullen Parkinson, I think... OK, that's a new name. Because he's getting overs under his belt. at this start of the season. Does he bowl a good enough baller?

52:59Michael Vaughan: That'd be my doubt for him. Does he spin it? Does he spin it? He's a spinner. Or then Patterson White at not... A spinner or a small baller? So we're talking about, so Mason Crane, 29, we feel he's probably, if he's going to get picked, he's kind of bold enough now. He kind of knows himself. Now, show him, what is he still, 21, 22? Is he a good move? What age were you when you kind of realised, you've got, I've bowled enough, I kind of know what I'm up to now. Yeah, like between the age of like, I think, you know, 25 to 27, you know your game quite well. Back at 23, I obviously made my debut. But, you know, I bowled a lot of overs.

53:36You know, I remember bowling 60 overs in a minor county game. All day long. Do you know what I mean? And I just don't think, you know, spinners at the moment bowl enough overs. You know, they need to have a repeatable action. They've got to bowl lots of overs. And captains and coaches need to like play spinners a lot more, early season and give them those overs under the belt. See it as one end they can control, go at 2.5, maybe three and over, trying to get those maidens in. And then later on, second half of the season is where they get their wickets. I think that's slightly gone out of the game at the moment and that's why we don't have enough special spinners coming through.

54:09Phil Tufnell: Is it a good move for Bashir that he's gone to derby with Mickey Arthur, who seems a thoroughly decent fella? Absolutely. I just think he just needs to play a couple of years.

54:18Michael Vaughan: He needs to play. He's just played, hold a load of overs, understand his game. We were talking to Leachie, weren't we, on something. Yeah. He said he played a lot of minor counties cricket when he was still signed for Somerset.

54:27Sir Alastair Cook: Yeah. So at the beginning of the season, he was like, going off winning and playing minor counties cricket. So you almost have to part your ego a bit. Yeah. So, well, I'm not getting the first team. It's a game. Don't play the second team. Cookie, cookie. You've regretted eating that fruit pastel now, haven't you? Is it stuck in your teeth?

54:44Michael Vaughan: A little bit, yeah.

54:46Sir Alastair Cook: Sorry, mate. No, you're right. You're totally right. Because both of you said about bowling. Well, Embers always used to say to me that you don't really start coming into a season until you've got about 200 under your belt. 200 overs? Yeah, I suppose thousands a year, thousands of summer. I reckon my average would have been... I would have bowled well over 1 ,000 overs every season.

55:09Phil Tufnell: Well, Embers... So Embers taking over, like, from Titmuss, and John Ember had been playing for England for two or three years. He said he didn't know about off-spin bowling until he was 27. There you go. At 27, it clicks, and I know what I'm doing, which brings you back to Mason Crane. 29-year-old, he's been round the block. There you go. And he's getting a few in the back.

55:30Michael Vaughan: He's certainly out of hand to bat. My only concern about Mason Crane, and this is just how successful leg spinners are in England, in general. I mean, there's not... We have to... Warren is obviously an exception.

55:43Sir Alastair Cook: Who's the Pakistani lads? Abdukadee? No, no. Danish, Canary. Oh, yeah, yeah. Mustard Army. Shire. No, Shire. Got five foot lords. Yeah. Billy Bairstone. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shire.

55:58Michael Vaughan: Shire. Shire. Yassir Shire. Yassir Shire. Yeah. Brilliant. I think, Eloy, if you can tweak a leg spinner and land it all right, I think it's so valuable. The England, obviously, with the bethel and root. Ticklet to tail enders.

56:11Sir Alastair Cook: Yeah. Yeah. See, you're right. With the root and the bethel up your sleeve, you've got a bit of that. So long as he can bat a bit as well, he's bringing that little bit of magic, that little bit of something. Mason will probably end up batting 11.

56:26Michael Vaughan: I'm going to bat him at 10-11. Yeah, nice. I'll end up, absolutely. He's the one. Again, you're looking at noses in front. Emilio Gay's got his nose in front with the opening slot and I reckon he's got the noses in front with a spin. Emilio Gay's batting three.

56:41Phil Tufnell: And? There's not much difference in top three. Well, Geoffrey would tell you different. Geoffrey would tell you different. An opening batter is an opening batter. I batted three in my first summer of England. You what? I batted three my first summer, you know, behind Triscothic and Strauss. Triscothic and Strauss, yeah. I quite enjoyed it. Did you? Played about seven test matches. What, three? Well, there's a lot to... I mean, back in the day... I would have been caught up there. They were picked. I mean, you were there. He was there, wasn't he? There he goes. I don't remember. I don't want to be a conversation with the cooker.

57:12Phil Tufnell: Tavare batted three. You'd play three openers because you could be in after one ball. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think there's a... I think top three, no difference. I think four, five, six different. You've got the mindset.

57:24Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Lads, community questions. Come on, mate. Community questions. This one's for you, Mont. What tips would you give a young spinner for the season? Just spin the ball. That's it. Or, you know, MMGA, make Montee great again. Mont? Yeah. Make M-M-G-A. Make Monty great in there. I like it. It's like the MAGA movement, that. Get the hat on. Right, interesting. Rank these innings by a left-arm spinner. Jack Leach, one night out, headingly. Oh. Ashton Agar, 98, Trent Bridge, 213.

58:03Sir Alastair Cook: 99, I think it was.

58:05Michael Vaughan: Oh, it says 98 on air, Phil. I'm pretty sure it's not.

58:07Sir Alastair Cook: Do your research.

58:08Michael Vaughan: Really? I think it is. Can someone check that, please? Phil's questioning your research in the back office. He was there. I might have got that wrong. You were there. You were there. I was there. Monty Panasar, seven not out. Cardiff, 209. Ravi Jadasia, 101 not out. Old Trafford, 25. Oh, blare him. That was a good knock, wasn't it? Ashley Giles, seven not out to win the fourth test of the 05 Ashes. Right, there's five to rate. Definitely 98, Phil, you're wrong. Oh, was it? Yeah, it was 98. Sorry. Sorry, he says. Right, right. I think Agar has to be number five. because he was yeah Agar 5 because he's not a number 11 and he was stumped as well because he was not out yes correct and also yeah they didn't win the game from it so it just extended the game and gave me more stress very quick Agar 5 yeah Agar 5 Jadeja great knock did they win it?

59:03Michael Vaughan: no it was a draw wasn't it? he's got him a chance to draw the series four four Jadeja 4 yeah because iconic he's not an iconic so now we're going Jack Leach famous partnership with Ben Stokes Monty Panesar, the famous partnership with Jimmy Anderson. Asi Giles getting us over the line with Hoggy. I think number three has to be Leach. Like, generally, because I think he got one. Stokes, he did all the hard work. Great partnership. Batting with a batter. Batting with a batter. So I think that goes three. And then... And it's between... I mean, Giles is so significant, isn't it? It will. Go for those.

59:38Sir Alastair Cook: They're so significant. I'm going Monty first. I'm going Monty first because you're batting there with Jimmy. And there's no hope.

59:44Michael Vaughan: And he sat here. Jailo's coming on in a few weeks. Could be Jailo. Brilliant Monty. It was you. Who currently are the top three spinners in world cricket? Obviously Nathan Lyon. I'll say Nathan Lyon. Are you talking test cricket? Yeah, test cricket. That's good test cricket. Jadija. And... Oh, gosh. I know. There's not many knocking up. There's not many knocking up.

1:00:13Sir Alastair Cook: Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Rost and Chase. Rost and Chase.

1:00:17Michael Vaughan: Simon Harmer. Simon Harmer, South Africa.

1:00:20Sir Alastair Cook: Yeah, Simon's... Yeah, yeah, could be out there. Is there a little mystery knocking about any more?

1:00:25Phil Tufnell: We haven't got many mystery spinners, have we now? Sri Lanka. Who are Indian spinners? Is it because everyone's reverse sweeping and manoeuvring it? Ashwin's retired. Quietly. There is a... I watch Kitek Rikki. As soon as it all spins...

1:00:37Sir Alastair Cook: People get bowled out. I know. I know they don't know what to do with it. Chahal? Chahal? Kasif Maraj.

1:00:44Michael Vaughan: Yeah, Maraj. South Africa got a couple of good ones, haven't they? Who is the most underrated cricketer of all time? Don Shepard. Don Shepard.

1:00:56Sir Alastair Cook: Don Shepard. Don Shepard. Who's Don Shepard? Who's Don Shepard? Oh, sorry, sorry.

1:01:02Phil Tufnell: Who was that? What year was this? Who doesn't? I mean... He did 50s. I'm going to admit this, Frank. 2 ,000-plus wickets at about 17s. Short leg. He played for England.

1:01:11Sir Alastair Cook: Did he get them always short? Glamorgan? What was it, a spinner?

1:01:14Phil Tufnell: Yeah, a spinner, cutter, big guy. Yeah. Lovely bloke. Commentated with Eddie Bevan. He used to commentate with Eddie Bevan on all the Glamorgan. Brilliant. Absolutely. Eddie Bevan. It's a good shout. Hold on. I've gone for Jack Callis as underrated. Because he is...

1:01:31Sir Alastair Cook: Statistically. Statistically. He's the greatest, but he never gets, you know, Lara, Tedoka. No one ever says it. Sobers. He's got... And he's got more... You'd say that Hoggy and Harmy are great English bowlers. Callis has got more wickets than him, hasn't he? Yeah. He's never dropped a catch. I've got 13 ,000 tests around.

1:01:51Michael Vaughan: I know. You're right. When you do a, you know, name your top five batters of all time. Callis is... No, he does. I played with him at Middlesex. I reckon he's got the best forward defence. Oh, like a band or...

1:02:04Phil Tufnell: He used a ball well at him. Freddie Flingtoff ball well at him. Yeah, I remember that over. Oh, is that mid-on?

1:02:09Michael Vaughan: They wanted the side screen movement. As we said, to get him out, it's Baldy Yorker. There was a spot, wasn't there, at one end, and South Africa wanted the side screen covering it. No, they wanted a towel in putting over, didn't they? Or whatever it was, tarpaulin. And we didn't have it. I sledge Mark Boucher there, his short leg. Oh, sure, Alistair. I know, and then he just gave me the biggest barrage back and I shat my stomach. What was your sledge? I stopped moaning, let the umpires do it. and you shouted back a bit. Oh, that's a big sledge. He was my sledgeyer at shore. Go on, chef. Rather than shat myself, I never said a word again.

1:02:45Michael Vaughan: I say. Do you know I have sheep? Phil, you celebrated your birthday last week. I did. 60 years of age. All right. Sorry, you didn't want that out there, but you are. We've got you some. Oh, look at that.

1:03:00Sir Alastair Cook: Thank you very much indeed. There you go. Can we all sing, please?

1:03:04Michael Vaughan: Go on, start it off. Go on. Happy birthday to you.

1:03:08Phil Tufnell: Happy birthday to you Happy birthday, dear Philip Happy birthday to you We're at the candles.

1:03:18Michael Vaughan: Yeah, we've got a... Harry? I must have a lighter. I thought I'd already had a lighter. We're not going to take candles. Happy birthday, Philip. There you go. Monty, thank you for that. That was great. Thank you very much. Thank you. Nice to see you. Thank you for having me.

1:03:30Sir Alastair Cook: Lovely. Thanks, guys. Up the town. Up the town. Thank you for the cake. Thank you for the cake. Thank you. It was a piece of cake. Come on. Thanks for the invite. What's that, why?

1:03:40Phil Tufnell: All right, yep. Quick picture. Oh, there's only 40. I'm going. We were 41 and 42. Sorry. We'll find out it's 150, won't we?

1:03:53Sir Alastair Cook: Oh, don't say that, Cooker. You make me feel bad. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them are still there. Well, there you go.

1:03:59Michael Vaughan: Where?

1:04:00Phil Tufnell: At his party. At his party, that you got an invite to. I know.

1:04:04Michael Vaughan: At party. I was representing Stick to Cricket.

1:04:07Phil Tufnell: Yeah, yeah. That's fair, isn't he? He went as our... Cheers, Mum. Thank you, Mum. Thanks, guys.

1:05:05We'll be right back. Visit associate or lowes.com for details. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Kai Wright. I'm Carter Sherman. Welcome to Stateside with Kai and Carter. We're a new show from The Guardian.

1:05:24Michael Vaughan: We're talking to big thinkers and the best journalists just trying to understand the world through smart conversation and honest reporting.

1:05:30Sir Alastair Cook: We don't have billionaires telling us what to say.

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