Rob Key: Ashes Selection & Ben Stokes’ Leadership | Stick to Cricket EP 15

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1:47All right, lads. All right? All good? All good, mate. Casey, thanks for joining us. Thanks. This is your office, isn't it? Not this bit. I don't look over that. All I see is the road over there and it shakes in the wind You look at that roundabout not quite I don't even have the roundabout be a bit more going on I have the wall and the road. Have you got a PA? I've got an EA Executive assistant Personal assistant executive assistant. What's the difference? I don't know She basically does my job like everything. I wouldn't have a clue how to do anything. She pretty much does it all Oh, that's Andy.

2:22Phil Tufnell: I might get one of them. I might get one of them. You need an EA. You need a PA and EA. What else do you need? I need a B and Q. But Barman, he needs a new hip. He's having a new hip. New hip. Huh? New hip. I'm having a hip replacement on Tuesday, so I might have had it by the time this goes out. How does that affect your swing? Yeah, not good. But I'm playing rubbish. What make are you having put in? I've no idea, but it's like you get the two. One is the one that Andy Murray's had where you can still run around, but it might fail. Yeah, or you just get the straight replacement that you can't run.

2:55Phil Tufnell: So I'm not bothered about are you planning to run around a bit? No, just a bit. I kick you out early now though. Next day. Yeah, next day you're up and about. They don't mess about you said they go Oh, be bloody it. No, there you go. How do you know? Donnie's had one Has she had a new hat? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Has she? Has she? Yeah, she had a new hat. My wife's had one. Yeah. What have you had? Knee. New knee? Metal knee. You had a bad neck, didn't you? Oh, it's terrible. I'm still not bad at them. A new neck? Why have you got a cap on? What's the cap? What is it? Absolute badger. I got one of their t-shirts.

3:30Phil Tufnell: They sent me the t-shirt. Oh, didn't they? Yeah. How do you get sent stuff? Well, Instagram, they just, they, I've still a day's t-shirt on the show. They click on it. What have you come as Dave? Keep it on Dave. What have you come of? What have you come of coach? Well a bit of the Rolling Stones and Dex's Midnight Rugger. Oh what was it yeah. Come on Arlene. Come on Arlene. Arlene or Eileen. Arlene. Arlene. All right Arlene. Is that the hat you wore on finals day? Yeah. I like this hat. Yeah. I like the hat. Yeah, I do. And, yeah, Rory Stolls. Dexys made like Kevin Rowland. Rory Stolls, Mick Jagger, yeah.

4:13Phil Tufnell: If you want to get a head, get a hat. What is this podcast about? We don't know. Do you want us to ask you some questions? We don't know. Have you been, Chef, been doing much now? No, I've been decorating. Have you been decorating? Yeah, we've been doing our little boy's bedroom. Are you painting? Yeah. Time to work that. Sand it down. what kind of I'm like just get it on just get it on the role that rollers yeah roll and decorators coke do you put some coke in yes no no it cork cork cork yeah anyway I'm not I found I'm not really good does Alice she basically organizes it I like she does it inside a basting you Wallpaper.

5:01Phil Tufnell: Not wallpaper. No, not wallpaper. Anyway, just painted. I'm painted. And then she does all the tidings. Has the paint stayed on the walls? Just about. What colour have we gone for? Well, it's for the little boy. So it's a bit of blue, white. I haven't built it. We've got something to paint. Well, he should have been red and white now. He's an Arsenal fan. Well, he's got an Arsenal... Which is obviously tough. Obviously tough for being a hatter. But he's got all the red... Some of it's red, some of it's that. How old is he? He's seven. All right. So obviously, like... He's at 35, then. But he's a gunner, and he obviously would try and make him become a Luton fan, but he's quite happy.

5:42So why are you not supporting Luton? He said, well, Arsenal are better. You can't actually argue with them, can you? Fair point. That's what I've been doing, painting. Should we actually start the show? Come on. What the hell have I come on here for? Welcome to Stick to Cricket, brought to you by Betfair, and today's show we're here at lords the home of cricket you could argue the greatest cricket ground in the world enjoy the show have you had a job i did one two weeks ago oh did you absolutely did yeah get the job no when you lose it's like they don't care they don't work hard enough they're not tough enough they're all soft whereas actually i thought it was the complete opposite.

6:26Phil Tufnell: We always just like playing at Lourdes because of the lunches. Oh we're going to Lourdes, all lovely lamb chops. Baz goes up to the players and basically says whatever happens we're going for this. I don't care if we win or lose we're going for it. The best coaches are the ones who have the balls to say that because you can also ruin a player. Nasser sees us joking and he shouts out, oi key you're fat. I didn't put you there to chat to your fat mate all day. Fred just went, Don't drop one now, Bob. I thought... LAUGHTER You know he's going to be annoyed at that for you getting me to tell that story.

7:02Good.

7:11Keezy, thanks for coming on. Pleasure. I'm going to ask you the first question. I'm going to say, cricketer, commentator or director of cricket? Ooh. What do you prefer? Oh, well, playing's the best, isn't it? Like, all the heartache you go through. I enjoyed playing. Commentator, I thought, was the best life that you can have because you just sort of commentate, watch a bit of creative, listen to Bumble and Nass and Ath and all that. It was great fun off camera as much as it was on. And this job's the most fulfilling, I reckon. This is the job where, like, you know, like, we've all got views.

7:45This is the one where you give your view and you find out if it's any good or not. And the truth is you've no idea half the time. You just think, this is what I think is best. These are the players I think are the best, or we, whether it's Brendan, Stokesy, whoever. And you find out, don't you? And that's the difference, I think, between being on this side of the fence and everywhere else. More of it in than playing. Yeah, but I didn't do what you did. You know, like, playing, if you score 100, was great fun. But, like, this is where you feel. I never, you know, unlike probably a lot of you guys here, you never really, you know, I did my little bit for England.

8:20Not much. You know, you played. Not like me. I did so. I just played a bit. You feel like you impacted the game a little bit. Would you feel like you actually, this is my opportunity, really, with a few others to try and impact the game? I mean, I say... You've actually both got a bit in common, haven't you? I get paid for it. He's got a double.

8:36Phil Tufnell: He's not charity. Still getting a check. Double under the no-tells. They've both got a double. That's right, yeah. Got a double here. Yeah, exactly. Versus West Indies. Ambrose, Walsh, Walsh. Garner. Garner. All of them in one team. Amari, Banks. I think I might have helped myself. You've got 200. You're talking about the job you're doing now and everything. Do you sometimes get the fit... Do you feel a little bit like a politician, though? Do you have to sort of... What's the sort of... I know what you mean. There's lots of that. Yeah. But when I did it, I sort of said, look, I don't want to be in the boxes and doing all of that.

9:14So I don't really want to be getting involved with the politics of county cricket and everything else. So I get involved in the stuff with the... You know, whether it's dealing with India and your players going, whether they're playing the IPL and things like that. But I try and stay away from it and just, you know, it's a game of cricket. I sometimes think that cricket had become far too corporate where you're trying to treat it like a business and you try and get it. So players and everyone remembers what it was like, why you played the game. So I try and take away some of that. But it's there, some of the politics of it.

9:45And the politics, when you're winning and doing well, you've got a lot of power. When you don't, you haven't. And that's it. You've got to know that, right? Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind.

9:53Phil Tufnell: So what's the dynamic then between you, Brendan and the captain? Do you support them or do you give them ideas? No, so when... I suppose the first thing I did was that I had a view. So if you remember, they'd come out of that Ashes series during COVID and they'd lost five now. Yeah, the one that Brodie thinks doesn't count. And, you know, English cricket... So they hadn't won a game for 17. And a lot of the talk was like, right, you know, They're not, like all English sport, when you lose, it's like they don't care. They don't work hard enough. They're not tough enough. They're all soft. Whereas actually I thought it was the complete opposite.

10:32I felt that they were almost trying too hard. They were suffocating by the pressure of everything else. So my bet really was I wanted someone to come in and be able to take some of the pressure off these players. Get them playing a more aggressive, positive style of cricket. because there's so much talent in England and I felt that it was just being stifled for lots of different reasons. You know, when that pressure really goes on, as you know, it becomes so loud, the noise. I just wanted someone that could try and as best he could take that away. And I was very lucky with Stokes and McCollum that they're all aligned to that and they do exactly that.

11:10The way they do it, I couldn't do it the way they do it. It's the credibility, the knowledge, the way they deal with people, the fact that they're stubborn enough as well to just think this is the way we're going, rather than just thinking, you know, all this, because everyone's got a different view. They're not swayed by that. And that was my bet. And that's why we went that way. Did you interview? Or did you just lie in your position? You say, no, this is how I want, not your sight, but under your power. See, everyone, people think that we all just picked each other off the golf course and we looked at handicaps.

11:43I didn't suggest that. No, no, no. So with Brendan, it was like doing a podcast, not this with all your cameras. I must have interviewed him five or six times. I rang him first because the best people don't apply for jobs like that, I don't think. You're not going to get someone who fills out a be applied thing and just answer three questions and it's like a blind CV. Although we did that process as well, so there's two ways of doing it. We then used a recruiter and Brendan, Miss Summer, I rang him and said, are you interested in this job? and there was a few other people as well that I did it.

12:16So we had lots of different ways of doing it. And then I sat down and with the recruiter who, you know, I trust his opinion on it. I think he'd done, you know, he'd worked with Straussie and people like that before. We just went about interviewing people to try and find out who was aligned to what I was thinking. And that's the key. And as long as you've got that, then I think you can sort of, you know, you can make decisions.

12:41Phil Tufnell: I don't think I've ever had an interview. Have you had an interview? Well, yes. Well, yes. Well, you're interviewing now. Yeah, yeah. Have you had a job interview? Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Oh, OK. Yeah. Keezy, you say, you mentioned... I've been done there, can't I? By the way, what job interview have you had? Let's see. You don't know what I go for in my life. No, no, correct. Absolutely. I did one two weeks ago. Oh, did you? Absolutely did, yeah. Did you get the job? No.

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14:53Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Keezer, you said something. You said look. Oh. I don't think it is look with what you've done. So you've seen and when you interviewed Brendan McCullum, you've heard something and obviously with Ben and you've put them together because it's not look you've seen it and you've seen the vision but what I'm interested you said you've interviewed Brendan six times or five or six times was there one thing that he said that's suddenly triggered you going you are our man ah it was just it was a it was the way it wasn't necessarily the way he said things it was the way he said it he had so much conviction without shouting yep you know and I just saw I remember at one stage saying to him like all right how do how should test cricket be played?

15:40And he just went, well, I think you should, you need batters who can put bowlers under pressure and soak up pressure when required. Bowlers who take wickets and chase every ball hard to the boundary. And you know, like everything in life, and you ask people, they say, what style of cricket do you play? Takes them like 20 minutes to explain it. You think, how can a player understand that? And it was so simple, so clear. And it was something I thought as a player, going, yeah, it makes sense. How you do it is a lot tougher. But those were the things. And then he spoke about how passionate... Because everyone thought I had him for the white ball job because he's more renowned for that.

16:18But it's just his love for Test cricket that was the thing. He was so excited about taking a team that was in one position and seeing what he could do with them.

16:28Phil Tufnell: I did that show... One show. No, not one show. You've got 17 shows. No, what's it called? This could go anywhere. Yeah, about when we went to New Zealand playing golf. I've never met him before. I've met him a couple of times, sort of, and everything, yeah. And as soon as I walked off the plane, you know, I've never met this chap in New Zealand and everything and what have you, and he's standing there, and I've come up to him, and I've gone, all right, Brendan. He said, are you a hugger? And I went, well, not really. He went, oh, come here, give us a hug. He did, and I'll tell you something, we got on so well on that.

17:06Phil Tufnell: mainly for that reason of sort of like... It was sort of like a calmness, but with ultra-positivity. And conviction. And conviction, yeah, but without sort of like, you know, we've all been there, you know what I mean, there's 600 for two, come on lads, we can do this. Well, we can't really, you know what I mean? It's sort of gone, you know what I mean? So without that kind of rubbish... We can't. You know what I mean? It only takes eight balls, you know what I mean? Oh, OK. You know what I mean? But, yeah, we've gone famously well. And I sort of warmed to him immediately for that sort of... For exactly what you were saying.

17:43Do you know what he's got? You talk about that... And everyone thinks he's very relaxed, very laid back, and that's the image he portrays. Yeah. But let me tell you, like... I remember when we... Literally two days before the first test, because he'd been at the IPL and he gave up on the IPL to come and do this job. And he could only get in two days or three days before the first test. and he sort of came in and he went you've got 19 support staff and I'd just started as well and we're like yeah it's a lot in it he went so he sort of went around and got them all together and went who are you and what do you do and he sort of asked every single one and if they couldn't sort of explain it very quickly and clearly he was a bit like I don't think we need these people around so then we moved them around out of the dressing room so you go off nutritionist go and do the young lions or whatever but my point is as much as he's relaxed he doesn't leave anything to chance so all the sort of like he doesn't really plan very much no no he's planned everything all the sort of like the people you want in your environment if you don't sort of fit in to the where we're trying to go then you don't sort of last in that environment and that's anyone really and i think that's really important because you need that alignment not agreement but fundamentally you need to agree on a philosophy of where you go.

18:58What I find intriguing about it though, when he first came in, that first innings and a half, it wasn't... Well, Basbord, was it? It wasn't, it wasn't. The scoring rate was under threes that first innings England played, or just over threes. It was only when that chase on that first game that it happened that something clicked, which is extraordinary, isn't it? So it's not like he came in and said, we've got to score six runs. I know Stokes' net, the very famous net against Stuart Brawler, where he told him, I'm going to try and hit every ball for four or six. Just please bear with me. But it wasn't in the first innings it didn't happen.

19:31It was that chase in the second innings where obviously something clicked. They just chased it down and everyone bought into it from there, which is quite an intriguing thing. Because it wasn't like day one, McCollum said, go and whack every ball for four and six in the first game because you didn't score that rain. So what do you reckon the lads clicked on, but it happened, the loudest it to happen? So I think it was actually the next game. So if you remember here, it was Joe Root who did it again. So we won early, which makes a big difference, because all of this stuff, if you don't win, then people don't buy into it.

20:04And so we won early here, which was a big one, because we haven't won for 17. You just want to get that off your back. Chase 270 or something like that. 270, if you remember the year before I commentated on here, England didn't go for 270. They just blocked out. They lost the series. Correct, lost two now. They lost to Edgebusters.

20:21Phil Tufnell: We'll go till we're six down. So I'm in the dressing room here, the first day that Ben and Brendan really addressed the team, and they spoke for less than five minutes. And Baz said that thing, I believe, look, lads, I want players who can put bowlers under pressure when required, have the courage and fortitude to soak it up when that's necessary, bowlers look to take wickets, fielders who chase everything hard to the bounds. You think that's simple, but what that shows you is who's committed. You know, and when you watch a team, you can see who's committed in the field. And Leachie, if you remember, he was watching videos of Brendan the night before on YouTube and ends up watching him field and then chases a ball and gets concussion.

21:04Parkinson comes in. But it's the next game. So they win that, they get a bit of confidence. And there's a moment in there, and it's a flat pitch at Trent Bridge. And there's a moment, now I'm in Holland because the white ball at this stage, they're starting a series out there. And in that last day, it's T on the last day, and we're about four down, isn't it? Something like that. And Baz goes up to the players and basically says, whatever happens, we're going for this. I don't care if we win or lose, we're going for it. And Johnny goes out. And Johnny was very much the catalyst for all of this.

21:40Because it's his natural game, right? So we pick players that that's their natural game. You don't ask players who don't play like that to go and play really aggressively. You want everyone to play their best version of themselves. And there's a moment where Johnny just sort of skews a hook and Stokes, he says, like me, what are you doing? Hit it out of the park. Now, that to me, there's this talk about technique. If you give a player conviction, that sorts out the technical stuff. So instead of doing this, you're like bang, like that. And from that moment on, it steamrolls into it. But at no stage did they talk about that.

22:12And it becomes something then that, you know, at times you need to row back from, at other times you need to double down on. but it was never a plan like that. Brilliant, because actually I remember at T. Because you come in and you're done in this draw now. It's a draw. I was like, no, I don't know, it's still got a chance. 35 minutes later, it was done. That was an amazing afternoon. Do you think, so the conviction in being aggressive, completely I've seen that. Saying to soak up pressure when it gets tough, do you think this England side can get better at that? Yeah, of course. And that's what you have to do.

22:46And you only do that. See, I often have this dilemma with myself. I remember, it might have been Nassau or someone, I remember speaking to him when they all got out hooking here. Oh, indeed. Do you remember that? No, Australia. Oh, my God, yeah, when he walked off with a calf strain. Yeah. Oh. So the point is, no one means to get out, right? Wow. And actually, I remember he saying, at what point do you tell them to stop doing it? And you think, do you know what? you have to trust that they'll make better decisions next time. If you run down the pitch and you get stumped on 40, you don't want to do that and you don't settle for that.

23:24But you try not to take away weapons and think, don't do this, don't do that. Because if you do that, you end up with nothing. So you've got to trust and you've got to try and subtly sort of create an environment that raises the bar. And that's how they do it. And that's what I hope we've seen going from this summer, where we didn't get it all right, that those decisions you get right more often than that?

23:48Phil Tufnell: 180 for one we were, yeah. Oh, in that game, yeah. 180 for one. It sounded like you were having a go at me. Well, no. I'm going to go at me. Yeah, it was no, but I must admit... It builds to something, doesn't it? This side has to build to something. And something, hopefully, is the next three months. Everything where they've blocked it for the root side to suddenly whacking everything to being able to do... Yeah. To do when it suits England's side, when it's flat, they can bat at seven, eight runs and over when it's tough they do three times that's what the best side does if they can do that they've got a chance of winning the Ashes and all the stuff they learnt here 180 for one getting all the hook they'll remember it all banks because every side takes time to build you don't just become a great side your side in 2005 didn't just become a great side you went through all the processes a different process for your side is this side but that's how you become a good player you gain ultimate confidence by winning the series particularly five match series And I look at the Indian series, I just hope that last day doesn't have an effect.

24:45It was the final bit for me, that last day. Yeah, just win that big series. That's what I'm looking for now. This team has got everything in terms of attacking, flair, flamboyancy, mentality. You've got a leader that is incredible. And it's just that next, the next hurdle is a five-match series against a quality side, which obviously you only play a quality side in a five-match series. And that's the big challenge now. Yeah, and you look back on that Indian, it wasn't just that last day. I'm thinking, oh, Trafford, you know, I know the pitch has got flat and it's hard to get a result, but we had two days, you know.

25:16We were so far ahead in that game. We had two days to bowl them out and they're the moments, you know, we drop catches, stuff like that. So it is, it's that final hurdle. And believe me, we're all like, you know, yeah, we know, and that's what you want to do because you're never going to become a great side unless you do that. Then you turned headling around when they were 4-70 for three. Yeah. And still won that game. I actually don't think there's been an England... I mean, I honestly say this, and I say it often, this England side, and how long has Ben been captain and band? How long have you been together?

25:44Four years? Three years, just under. It's been the most enjoyable that I've seen from the perspective of being a broadcaster, commentator. You bring joy, drama, chaos at times. Frustration. Well, correct, yeah, but it's great. Now, I kind of look at the whole kind of set-up, and Ben Stokes, I mean, you take Ben out. I mean, we had Fred, obviously beefy back in the 80s. To have someone like Stokes, I mean, first and foremost, please tell me he's going to be fit. Yeah, he looks like he's all right. So he's going to be fit. But you've seen him inside the dressing room. We haven't seen that. You've probably seen him in the team room chatting.

26:22What is it that he does to this side? I'll tell you what he did at the start. Not just the way that he played and he was going out there, almost preparing to sacrifice himself to just really double down on the style that he wanted to play. I'll tell you what he did. he protected a lot of the players and I thought that was so important because you're asking people to take risks and if you're not prepared to do it as a player yourself it's not going to work so he almost and whether it was with the media whatever else it was he was the man up front saying no no this is what we're doing and if anyone sort of questioned it he was not coming back but he just sort of almost just gave everyone a bit of a license in the way that he carried himself and then as he's gone through he's evolved as well as a captain so he went away from the the style that he was playing.

27:04And actually, during some of the ashes at times, he went, you know, here at Lord's, he was probably one of the more reserved, until he exploded. So he plays the situation as well as anyone. And he's just getting better and better at that. And I believe, so I've always tried to like, we have analytics and all that stuff. I believe, like, it's all about how much you impact a game. So when you look at players, someone like Ben Stokes impacts a game before he even walks out. Forget about if he scores a run or takes a wicket. You know, he is a player that just by being there, the fact he balances the team, everything he gives with his captaincy, the way that he messages, he's impacting the game.

27:42And he does that all the way through, regardless of what he does with runs and wickets. The same thing, we've always had players that, they might not be the bloke that gets five-far, but they get the one wicket, as Stokes normally does on a flat pitch, when nothing's happening. and he breaks the one end open and then someone else runs through. It might have been Jimmy or Brodie back then. And you need players that impact the game, and he does that better than anyone in the world.

28:09Phil Tufnell: But do you feel also that there's a real New Zealand influence because you've got Jeetan Patel and you've just brought the other guy in? Tim Southie. Southie. So is it Brendan that's done that? He wants comfortable people around him? Yeah, to some extent. there I mean I think that Southie with bowling coaches you want someone that's played T20 played together because remember they're doing everything now and understand you want someone in the setup yeah we have our bowling coaches that are very good at planning programming technical stuff you want someone there who's good tactical who can just give you a quick fix when you're struggling a little bit and ultimately I believe it's my job to give Brendan and Ben the best opportunity to succeed so that if they succeed or fail they don't think yeah but Keezy didn't do this and Keezy got in the way with this and he did that they've got captains and coaches have to succeed and fail on their own terms and that's what I try and provide for them and also if you're in the dressing room you're the head coach you want someone you can trust yeah yeah you don't you like you have to have to have someone you can say what do you think and if you don't if you're not totally sure about that you can't trust it there was a lot of that there was a lot of that going on weren't there back in the day actually there was lots of people getting in the way of everything really there was though weren't there yeah but you had a good time oh we had a good time yeah but it always seemed to be sort of like not quite as you said you weren't it wasn't about your own abilities really that kind of like you know the men got you somewhere because there was always seemed to be something in the way of it yeah you would have had a different selection you'd have We had selectors.

29:44Phil Tufnell: Oh, my gosh. Well, we didn't have central contracts. You know, the lads, you know that you'd have a TV in the room and it was C-fakes, and so you're playing for England, and they're all looking, oh, how's Northampton, how's Essex? See, I want to see how we're doing. Page 340. We're watching the scores. Page 340. Mark Rambakash went up to, was it Ozzy Wheatley? Yes. Yes, Mark Rambakash. We went there before we were going on tour or something for a drinks thing, went up to Ozzy Wheatley and said, Hello, my name's Mark Ramakesh. What constituency do you look after? It was one of the selectors.

30:25Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. When you won the T20 World Cup, whatever the year was in Melbourne, you had Michael Hussey as part of the backroom, so inside of knowledge, Mr Cricket. Are you considering anyone that kind of position for the Ashes to get someone from inside the Australian set-up to help out? Yeah, but just someone who's been out there and done it there. So, you know, at the moment, like Tim Southey, still in the franchise world, he's that current, so he's probably not going to do the Ashes. So we're just looking to find someone, especially from a bowling point of view, that understand.

31:04Now, whether that's someone from Australia or someone who's done it from England out there or someone from South Africa or anywhere, just someone that's got some insight into it. And I think, you know, like, there's a big difference in you. You need someone that has that credibility as well, that can actually turn around and just say, right, you know, this is the moment where this pitch, this is what's required. You know, and you get quick buy-in from that. So we're looking for all of those things.

31:30Phil Tufnell: Perhaps have a bowl at Brisbane.

31:35We should get Nass to actually... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is he that person? Is he your Brisbane expert? I'm not sure. He's a day-nighter, so he's not an expert. I'm not sure he's completely aligned to it.

31:46Phil Tufnell: What about when you were stood at slip and he were captain? You can't get me to tell that. Awkward. There's swearing in it. But anyway. It's only a year. This is my... So it's a Vaughan he's playing in this game. We're at Trent Bridge. And, like, I remember I never fielded in the slip, so I couldn't catch. I hated it. I got so bored. And this is back then, they're sort of walking around and I've come in for Trescothic and it's like the day before the game or something And they're walking around and they're saying like Fletcher's going who does slip and I'm thinking surely they know who does slip This is like England And he turned around and Fred who was my best mate He says Keezy will do it I said I'm not doing slip, shut up And he's like Keezy will do it I'm thinking this is, so Fletcher goes you do slip and I thought, well, I can't say no to the first thing he asked me.

32:38And Fletcher, I like Fletcher. I don't know if you like me, but he was quite like, he was quite intimidating in a way of how miserable he could be. And so I went, yeah, I'll do it. Like that. And you end up thinking, this is like the dog and duck, you know, like you end up first test for England, you're in at slip. Anyway, I catch one early, might have been dravid or someone like that, hoggy. and Stewie's there who I'd watched as a kid you know growing up and Fred's here and we just start telling Stewie stories about you know and then Fred did this and Key's you know and we're just waffling on in between.

33:14You were first of it? First of it Fred's second and like we're just I'm like hands in my pockets and all this and in the middle of an over NASA sees us joking and he shouts out he's going to kill me for this. Oi, Key, you're fat. I didn't put you there to chat to your fat fucking mate all day. I'm going to swear to him. Concentrate. And I was like, oh. And Fred just went, don't drop one now, Bob. I thought, oh. You know he's going to be annoyed at that for you getting me to tell that story. Good. I didn't mean it. He was a brilliant captain.

33:51Phil Tufnell: Yeah, but I mean, he was good in commentary box, wasn't he? He's bloody good. He's so good. But you know what he is? He's like no small talk, isn't he? So like... Yeah. You know when you sit to a taxi driver, you're busy tonight, maybe or anything. Nassau's the opposite. Nassau, you fancy coming to play golf, don't like golf, don't like you. Nah. Yeah. At least you know. Always calls me tough. How many catches did you drop at Henley? I dropped three at Henley. At Henley. That was India, wasn't it? It was India, yeah. And Sachin, they all got wondrous, didn't they? Dravid probably got a big one.

34:22Dravid got a double, didn't he? He did got a double. Well, he dropped... Oh, a nine-seven or so. He dropped a couple and he came... Remember, we swapped. He said, can I just... Was it backward point or...? That's true. He said, I'll take back... Because they were slogging. He said, I'll take backward point. So he's thinking, no chance of coming to backward point. And I had to get a long off. Anyway, the next ball, straight to backward point. Dropped another one. Spend another. That Western Terrace just had long... Oh, yeah. Arranged the letters they were holding up to abuse me. Keyes, the Ashes squad's been picked.

34:55Dave and I earlier picked one. Dave, do you want to go through the squad and just see if we...

35:00Phil Tufnell: Well, we've picked 16. Is that right? I think we're around there, yeah. Yeah, we're at 16. So locked in are the opening pair, Crawley and Duckett. Oh, you're serious? I thought you... I was expecting one. I saw one. You had a different number three, I think, or something. What have you got? Yeah, I've got... So your Pope's roundabout, Bethel. So these are your batting line-up. Crawley you can nod your head if we're about right right start from the beginning it's been it's been Dave it's been announced it's been it's been announced it this show's obviously filmed all right oh say Tuesday it's announcing the Wednesday this show is not going out for the following week so we can do it right Crawley ducky love ducky Pope yeah yeah little ducky lovely what's it like you uh Bethel he best went fresh you play at all no sorry no root No, this isn't the batting line.

35:52Phil Tufnell: Oh, right. We've got four. Do you change your number four? Root. No, no, no, these are just your battes. Can you do it in batting order? No. Root, Brook. Yeah. Stokes, brackets, if fit. Close brackets. Yeah, it'd be fit. Smith, Jay. There's a lot of Smiths. Atkinson, Ron. Imagine if Ron Atkinson. I might have a quick word e-ball. Atkinson, Kais. Yeah. Wood, if fit. Which Wood? Which Wood? M Wood. M Wood. Not L. Although Luke Wood... Who's the other Wood? He's good. Who's good? He's good. He's Luke Wood. He is. Why don't Lanks play him in four-day cricket? Why don't he? Left arm 85 mile an hour.

36:32Phil Tufnell: When you're chairman, you'll get him in. Yeah. Geoffrey Archer. Geoffrey Archer. Archer. Tong. Lovely. Love Tong. Tong. Ball great, didn't he? The oval. Gets all the... Ahmed. Ahmed. Ahmed. Ahmed. Oh. Oh. Bashir. Yeah. Yeah, he don't play at all, so he's best when fresh. Anand Dolby. Anand Dolby. Sorry, Anand Dolby. Anand Dolby's a good bowler. Very good. That type of bowler. If you need a change-up. Yeah, just hitting the top of our stump and pots or pots. Anand Dolby pots. Hitting the top of our steady addy. We haven't got Sam cooking. Can I see your face for pots to see if we've got it? Yeah, yeah.

37:17So we've got one wrong. Anand Dolby. No, no, you've got two. We've got two. Oh, yeah. Ray-Anne Ahmed. Because he's not the specific. So you're going with? Dawson. No. Jax. Leech. Will Jax. Will Jax. Oh, Ryan. So Jax for Ahmed. Who else have we got wrong? Han and Dolby. Yeah, well, Potts. Oh, Potts.

37:36Phil Tufnell: It's Potts. We do a lot of slash, whatever. So your two Twiddly's are? So we've got, well, and you've got to remember, we've got a Lions trip that sort of shadows. Yeah, I saw you. So Ray-Anne will be on the Lions. Yeah. So, like, we're not... We've done loads of stuff on pitches and all that, and it looks like it's going to seem a bit more, all of that. So we're not, you know... And Ray-Anne is a brilliant bowler, and he feels like he's been around forever, but he's only, what, 21? Yeah. So for him to go in as just one spinner, we feel that's probably too much of a risk. So someone like Jax, along with Root and whoever else, you know, then on conditions where it's not necessarily going to suit the spinner.

38:16But if we then get conditions where you think it can spin, then there is the option to get someone like Ryan Ahmed there. Because when we go to Brisbane, they're there. How long are the Lions there for? They're there for the first three tests. So, safe Zabe.

38:30Phil Tufnell: Safe Zabe. Yeah, batter, yeah. Good batter, he's got a good future. Have you put the Lions? Just say names at me. Have you put the Lions? I've been in Perth the last few years, right? I would go very close to picking Will Jackson for that first test. No spinner. Well, he's a spinner. Well, yeah. Root. No, sorry. Root. Will Jacks. He ain't going to win you the bloody game. It's going to be Bethel or Pope at three, isn't it? Bethel. I would... Well, if Bethel but three, he can bowl a few little... How much decision were you in that first 11? So we try and leave it. So the squad is... The voting capacity in the squads is myself, Brendan and Ben.

39:14And Luke Wright does a... He's like unsung hero, but, you know, Luke Wright does a brilliant... Him for. Yeah, but he's got no ego for it as well. So he's a brilliant judge. So that sort of makes it up, along with all our analytics and David Caw, Ed Barnes. There's loads of people involved in selection. We make the final decision. The 11, we pretty much leave to Baz and Stokesy, really. Unless you get a phone call. Well, and also, I'll... Righty and myself try and stay out of the dressing room so that we can offer insight that, you know, that isn't... You know, you're not all just thinking the same thing.

39:51So that 11 will be, you know, Baz and Stokesy and they'll ask our opinion, but really they'll, you know, just go, whatever you boys think.

39:58Phil Tufnell: I mean, that's old school. That's how it used to be. That's how it was when we were there. Yeah, that's how it was when we were there. I was just trying to think... What do you want? What team do you want? You're checking them out. I was just trying to think whether... I can remember an example where, say, Andy and I couldn't agree or more than that. Yeah, then I can give that for you, effectively. And I often think, and I know there's going to be decisions about the conditions out there and whether you play a spinner every time or not at all. I get that. But ultimately, you want them to... And if you're talking...

40:29I never think you should go too much on the last pick because it's the other blokes. They're not that important if they're not the first name down almost. So you shouldn't take too long or worry too much about the last man that you're picking. It's like, you know, who wants to... Is it Millionaire? What's the show? Chris Tarrant. Who wants to be a millionaire? Well, like Ben and Baz, they can phone a friend, can't they? They can phone a friend.

40:54Phil Tufnell: Ask the audience. Yeah. Do they have 50-50? LAUGHTER We do 50-50. Chris Tarrant asks... Yeah. Do you know him as well? Ask the crowd. Ask the crowd. Who'd you fernse, lads? Yeah. Oh, brilliant. So I guess a lot of the talk within the media circles is warm-up games. Yeah. And New Zealand to Perth, playing the Lions, that's three-day, three-day warm-up at the WACA. The old-school brigadiers, ooh, it's not enough. Not enough, need a few more games. 10 and 11, play three games. 13 and 14, play three games. All got hammered. Where do you sit on those warm-up games? No, I think there's no obvious answer.

41:38Like you say, everyone talks about when you won in 2010-11 and then I went out there in 2003. We played loads of games and didn't look like winning a game. The answer isn't you didn't win that series because of the preparation. I'm sure it helped. You didn't win it because you went off and did a team-building thing and all of that because they did it the next time as well. It's about whether or not you can pitch up there with a team with enough skill and enough of a mentality to go out there and win in Australia, I think. And our landscape now is different, right? So we're going to use those white ball games.

42:12So there'll be a lot of our test players go out there and play in the white ball series that are on. Then the guys that aren't will be out from a couple of weeks. They'll be at Loughborough Bowling Outdoors. We have the tent there. So they start doing that. We then get out there. They get out at the start of November to go and start preparing. So there's a mixture for everyone. So it's a long build-up, and we're trying to make the best of the conditions that we've got, or the landscape that cricket is now. And it's what... The way we see it is that we've been successful at the first game of every tour.

42:48It was the same thing. We won in India that first game after going to Abu Dhabi, and I watched that practice and that preparation. It was excellent. But I don't think we'll be... People may define as if we win or lose a series on the preparation, but that for us isn't going to be the make or break.

43:04Phil Tufnell: Do you talk a lot about the opposition or not? Yeah, that's more for them really. I don't. You mentioned analysts. Are they at the forefront of that? Or do the captain and the coach take it all on board? So I sort of, myself and Riety, we have so much stuff coming in. So it's like a filtering process. so that people see the stuff that they need to see or that makes a difference. You know, you get 70-page documents with all the different things. And our job a little bit is to pick out the things that really make a difference. Might be on conditions, might be something. The stuff in-game is done by the analyst in the team with Brendan, and Baz is very clever.

43:48Baz has got a brilliant cricket brain because for all the stuff that we talk about, if you talk a load of nonsense, no-one's going to listen. So they'll talk about the opposition, but they won't overdo it. You won't have loads of analytics going into it, but there's been loads of analytics that goes into the decision-making.

44:08Phil Tufnell: It's funny you say that. It was always like we always used to like playing at Lourdes because of the lunches. Did you have an analyst, Phil? No, we didn't. Oh, we're going to Lourdes, oh, lovely lamb chops. Lamb chops. Not about the pitch, not about the bloody opposition. Absolutely. What's the tent? You said they're all in a tent. Yeah, indoors. They go indoors now. Sorry, you go outdoors with a marquee effect. Oh, right. Woody was on. Woody was on. He said tent as heaters. Yeah. And then he said, did they go into a sauna as well? They've got this thing, haven't they, where they're trying to climatise.

44:45It's not for me.

44:46Phil Tufnell: The climadapt. Climadapt. Climadapt. Is that what it's called? So they go in. They're trying to get used to the heat. So I don't know if they sit in a sauna. All that stuff's not for me. We turned up there before going to the West Indies. It was snowing, wasn't it? The West Indies? No, no, no. Lillyshaw. Lillyshaw. What a place, Lillyshaw. Lillyshaw. You'd run to the gates and back. Up the hill on the way back. That's amazing. We're going to be in Barbados tomorrow. You bowl with us, Phil. You freaking hold the ball. Big Dev bowling at Lillyshaw. Yeah. Like it. Yeah, happy days. 33 days, 33 episodes, no off switch.

45:27From the goals and the glory to the politics and the problems of the World Cup, if you want soccer analysis from a podcast that's been overanalyzing the game for more than 20 years, then this is it. Join me, Max Rushton, and our expert team of soccer journalists every day of the tournament. Can England end 60 years of hurt? Or will this be another year of falling just short? Probably. World Cup Daily, listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch full episodes on YouTube. Hi, it's Paige from Giggly Squad, and this episode is sponsored by Experian Boost. Summer glow up? Check. Credit glow up? Even better.

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47:26Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Keezy, Freddie was on this show weeks ago and he spoke brilliantly about coaching. He's obviously loving it, isn't he? Yeah, he's, I think, is a brilliant coach. You know, like when you... Him and Brendan are very similar in a way that they're great. I wouldn't say... I've seen players improve under Freddie, whether it was this Eddie Jack who went in just one week. Mick Stanley. Mick Stanley. People like that. You just see players and there's not one bit of like cricket technique or anything that they do. It's just the way they make them feel. They're very subtle and clever about how they talk about the game, how they get them to think about what you should be thinking when you come in and bowl.

48:13We had it with Tom Hartley at the spin camp, where you sometimes, as a player at that level, you get so sort of caught up in thinking about all of this stuff, and he's just like, mate, just spin it hard. Sometimes you need that, and that's where they're really good, and then you have your Trescothics. Nowadays, you get coaches. If you want to go off and you're struggling, your head's falling over, there's other people for that now. You know, and that's where Freddie, you know, and he's smart, as you know. He gets that he's Andrew Flintoff. Some of them don't remember him as a player. They know him more for, like, Top Gear and Morrisons and whatever.

48:50But most of them... Jackie Mo. Jackie Mo. Morrisons. I remember Morrisons when he was doing the adverts. I can't remember that. He's doing Bullseye at the moment, isn't he?

48:58Phil Tufnell: Yeah, he is. In one! You'd be good on that, by your word. I was absolutely gutsy when I didn't get that. Yeah. He's from Jim Bones from Accrington. Accrington bloke. He took Fred. Never mind, Dave. And he never... I thought he'd have run me up and said, look, I'm doing bullseye, come on. You could have been Tony doing the score. It was, yeah. Oh, not another speedboat, is it? Yeah. Oh, looky, Dave. Sorry, Keezy Carrick. No, no, see, he's just... He's a good leader. There's a great quote, I can't remember who it was, but basically the players won't often remember what you told them, you know, the day before a game, but they'll always remember how you made them feel.

49:41And you look at all of the best coaches we had, it's always the people that made you feel invincible. And how they do that is not obvious, really. It's just every word, every time they speak, the look that they have on their face. You know, it's like when you get out and you've played a crap shot, a coach can make you feel just by the way they look or just ignore you, make you really and add pressure. You know, whereas these guys are very good at just making you feel like you can go out there and do things You didn't think you could it's weird because there is a has to be a balance as well Because it's not it's all well feeling good, but still going out there is bloody hard thing to go out there It's tough He says there's an element of it makes you feel good But then there's also the element of knowing realization what you're walking into and it isn't easy So there has to be a bit of I do I mean is that the best coaches I've worked under had that balance for me of like, it's not all just pats on the back, it's not all just brilliant stuff.

50:38There is also some harsh truth and reality as well. But the best coaches find that balance.

50:43Phil Tufnell: Well, when I played, it was your teammates. Your teammates, you know what I mean? They used to be the one, you know what I mean? Giving you the, you know. Because you need it sometimes. Absolutely. But, you know, my boys kept getting out the opposition spinner, you know what I mean? I was fucking, you know, an embers, you know what I mean? They used to be, what are you doing getting out of the min? You know what I mean? You know what I mean? What are you doing? He slogged it straight down his bloody neck. You know what I mean? And that wasn't a boy's rule. But it's like, it doesn't mean that you're just saying, well done.

51:10No, it doesn't. Don't misunderstand. No, no, no, I'm not. Because actually, like, telling people when they need to improve or how they need to do it is a great compliment, I always think. When you're giving feedback to people, you're actually giving them the best compliment because you're saying, I think you're better than this. And also the best coaches are the ones who have the balls to say that. It's very easy as a coach not to risk, because you're putting your reputation on the line to a player, because you can also ruin a player. If you tell a player that one thing, like, actually, I think technically you need to do this, and you ruin him, that's a big step.

51:43It's easy just to be a safe coach, and you'd be a very good dog sticker and a pat on the back, and, oh, I love him, he's a great person. The best coaches are the real ones who have the ability to find the one thing to improve players.

51:53Phil Tufnell: The coaches are proving players. You're going to also, as a coach, look at a player, and if he needs improving, just the way that you put it across to him, I think we should work at this. Somebody like young McKinney, I watched a fair bit, he's an explosive player, a very strong player, and a leg spinner. He might have been Calamari and had it on source. So you'd say to him, right, we're going to try and improve, play against spin. But you're not telling him you're useless again. We're going to improve that, this is what we're going to do. And you work hard with him. and he did him like a kipper up at Durham.

52:29Phil Tufnell: He'd just come down and slog one straight up in the air. That's where they're very good. Because there's moments as well when players haven't been behaving, and I don't mean going out and stuff like that. I'm talking about when they're not... Why did you point it for him? I saw that. I'm just trying to bring everyone in. But, you know, and then that's when you... And that's the thing. Like, from, say, Brendan's environment, there's a lot of people, we've given a lot of backing to a lot of players. There's other people that have just found themselves out of there. So it is that balance of getting it right.

53:01Phil Tufnell: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. What is the dressing room like now? What is, you know, are the boys still, you know, doing the crossword? Are they having a little sleep or something? No, I generally haven't been in there much. Oh, you haven't been in there much? Not that much. I mean, it's all very, you know. Is it similar? The only thing I notice is they print out the times or whatever cryptic crossword. and at the start of the series there's these blank cryptic crosswords and at the end there's about three clues that they've got. They sit there for ages just doing that. There's not, but it's probably no different.

53:36Phil Tufnell: You got a little bit shitty when they were doing interviews and you told them to shut up, didn't you? You're talking rubbish in interviews. It might have been Little Ducky when Ducky's coming up. Oh, don't worry. We like Ducky. We like Ducky. grenade we like we like ducky how many do you want to chase yeah as you want yeah yeah um we're not bothered about the result we just entertainers yeah but that's when he got he'd come in and say why don't you shut up well but that's what like they because they get i remember ringing duckett about that and i like all of them but ben duckett in particular and he's got done a few times because he doesn't see the like gotcha questions they're like one two nil down in a series in india a Champions Trophy coming up.

54:18I was like, Ducky, did you not see that one coming? Well, I just didn't know. I just didn't know what to do. I didn't mean it. Of course I care and all of this. And that's the problem. They're not like media trained. And when you look back, the problem is when you say stuff, there'll be stuff on here, you'll take grabs and it'll be like, that's what you look at and stuff. And I think the Telegraph did it where they put down the most cringeworthy quotes of Baz Ball and you're just reading it thinking, oh, my God. But the players do, right? And it's hard. Like, I don't know now. Because it was Duckett when they're in India and it's like two days to go and it's zanging out of footmarks and you've got Kuldeep Yadav and that.

54:59And Duckett's like, we'll chase as many as possible. The more the better. The more the better. But I know what he means. And the truth is, because Warnie was like this, if you've got two days to bat in India, as you'll know, on a ragging pitch, you're better off going for them. Because you've got as much chance of surviving that way. You're doing that or you're playing shots, you're going to struggle. You're behind the game and that's where they go to. Cookie, you've got to... Can I go? I've just had something in my ear saying, Cookie, you've got to go. Right, Maestro. We're finishing now, anyway.

55:33We're on to a couple of community questions, Rob. Steve Pins. Well done, Shefton. Cheers. Well done. From Portsmouth, Steve. He's asked, my beloved Hampshire lost the blast final one day cup final and women's one day cup final in the space of seven days what is the worst week you've had in cricket good luck I tell you probably some in this job I'd say when you sit there probably when you end up in the ashes when well we came back at the end but when we went 2-0 down that was a I don't know that was the story 2-0 down you think you got that week where you're just getting And how much do you think, oh, this is going to be tough?

56:16But to be fair, that week, I always remember, I was doing the press afterwards at the top end there. And the question, I think it was to Ben, obviously, as the skipper. Come back. I said, you're two on that. Don't worry, we'll win 3-2. And we were like, what? Don't worry, we'll win 3-2.

56:30Phil Tufnell: Bloody Manchester, that. Old Trafford, pissed down for two days. Otherwise, we would have done. Cost him. Yeah, he did. Cost him. He did rage, surely. He did. Only for half an hour. What player do you always make sure to watch when they are playing? Can only be one. As a director, you're in your office with your EAPA. I tell you who I enjoy watching at the moment is Jordan Cox. I think he's great to watch at the minute. I enjoy watching The 100 and seeing when they came out, him and Sam Curran in that. So Jordan Cox at the moment. Jordan Cox. Last one. Flintoff or Stokes? Ooh! Come on.

57:20Do you want to have a sweep before you answer it? I'll go for Stokes, but I'll ring Freddie later and say it. He'll be on Bullseye, he won't be watching. He'll be on the arrows. He's practicing his arrows. Keyesie, brilliant, thank you. No worries. And good luck this winter. Good luck, Keyesoff.

57:35Phil Tufnell: Well done. Brilliant. All right, mate.

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