The Overlap Ashes Debate Part Two: Ashes Hot Takes, All-Time XIs & Stokes’ Defining Moment?

0:00Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners Betfair. Hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to the Ashes Debate, brought to you by Betfair. Phil Tufnel's joining me on the sofa and inside this room we have a load of Australian and England supporters to discuss the Ashes. Let's get in there.

0:27The Ashes is Australia's fourth most interesting series. Correct. You need me to explain or...? Broad is in! Broad is in! I think, tangibly speaking, Pat Cummins has won something. And Ben Stokes hasn't. Are you saying that England now are minnow? No, I mean, minnow is taking it too far, but on the verge. As we speak now, you think Ben Stokes is better than Ian Both. You see him walking out first up, you know that if you're not spot on and you're feeling a little bit nervous, he can destroy you. Oh, we've had a stinkery. Can we start again?

1:19Right, we're going to start this show and we're going to pick a combined Ashes 11 from 1980s onwards. A lot of players to choose from. 1 to 11, and I'm going to stipulate that this is for an Adelaide game. We're playing in Adelaide. It's a nice week in Adelaide. We've been down the Barossa, and now we're actually picking... Pretend you're in the Barossa Valley. Right, you've got a nice bottle of Penfold, and we're now going to pick our combined 11. What, Aussie and England? It's a combine, Phil. Combine. Combine, yeah. OK. I'll tell you what, Phil, we'll start as you were a spinner. Yeah, well, as only one.

2:06Yeah, we're going to start with a spinner. Yeah, the king. Well, ask the crowd. Well, we do think spinner, spinner. I mean, there's warning. That's an obvious one. Right, go put one to 11. There's no real debate about that. The king. Yeah. The king. Don't forget nine, someone just said. Thanks very much. He was the best. I mean, of all the bowlers you've seen play test cricket, Stephen, you've joined us. Good to see you in your England jersey. Where does Warnie rank? Top. In the history of... The best bowl you've ever seen? I'd say so. Showman for all-round abilities for, as you say, used to empty the bars.

2:47I mean, usually the batters empty the bars, but when Shane came on the bowl, all eyes were watching. He dictated the flow of the game. So he's your greatest ever bowler? Well, yeah, I'm not talking about SF Barnes, which always comes up, or someone like that. In my lifetime, Shane, for a spinner, for sure. Heidi? Is Warnie the best? Yeah, he's a mastermind. Spinner or all-round bowler? Not far off all-round, but I mean... Definitely, definitely Spinner. I feel like I need to give it more thought for a while. Shishir? Yeah, Undisputed. Undisputed. Jared? McGrath's probably the best all-round baller.

3:29Yeah? Is McGrath better than Bunra? At the moment, yes. But I think Bunra can go past him. But you get older as bowlers, you slow down a little bit, don't you? So we'll have to see what he does when he slows down. Not you, not you, but other guys, I mean. Even Spinner. Warnie was engaged to this early enough. McGrath wasn't. I'm just saying. That just gives him a little bit. You want to weigh that up. What number's he going? One is the greatest number. Eight? Eight. Yeah, one at number eight. Is this in Ashes? Yes. Or is this? Okay. So we're not just, you can't just be good at, so Root doesn't get in this, right?

4:05Performances. It's Ashes performances from the eighties. If you want to throw one or two names in, we can debate. Yeah. but generally we're talking about Ashes cricket. Let's go with the opening partnership. I'll throw a few names. We've got the likes of Cook, Chris Broad. Had a great series in the 80s down there. Zach Crawley, Duckett, Strauss, Treskothic, Atherton, Vaughan, Warner, Rogers, Langer, Hayden, Taylor, Khawaja. They're just to name a few. Where do you want to start? Langer averages 50 in Ashes cricket. He's number one. Put him up. Don't let anyone talk. Right, anyone else? Justin Lange happy with Stephen?

4:44Do you have to pick a pair? What do you mean? You have to have two to go out. What I mean is, do some players only play better with their partner? So you say Lange and Hayden. Or Strauss Truskothic in 2005. He never... Oh, oh! But he scored the consistency of runs and in that Edgbaston set, when they came out and played that style of cricket that you guys decided you were going to play in the second game against Worm... Don't suck up, do you? No. It was the bowling machine Merlin, wouldn't it? Yeah, I'd feel uncomfortable with... He averaged 33, didn't he, Triscothic? Kirk ahead of Triscothic.

5:18Hayden Cook. Hayden Cook. I don't think Hayden made a lot of Ashes runs either. No. So what? I think Slater. Slater must have gone for you a couple of times. A couple of times. I reckon Slater averages about 46, 47 in Ashes cricket. And he was explosive at a time when people didn't... He was a buzz baller. Exactly. I'd go with him ahead of Hayden. Are we all agreeing Langer goes number one? Justin Langer, number one. Yep, yep. What are we going for? Number one, Phil. Slater? No, Langer. Are we saying Langer number one? Are we happy with Justin Langer? Justin Langer. Well, I'm Mark Taylor. Yeah, Taylor.

5:55Taylor's not far off. But he had a couple of bad series, didn't he? A couple of times you guys got him out for fun. I reckon. 89, though. Yes. Yeah, 89. He was the main player, wasn't he? If you get a bowler, I think I prefer to bowl it. Tubby the JL I think Langer also went up against better bowlers didn't he in that area yeah Langer and you said like a classic love Langer love Langer what about Gucci Gucci forgot about Gucci did he win in Ashes yes 85 he wasn't on five 85 had a bit of in that gallery No, he was there. 89 was there, but he got... Terry Alderman. Terry, what did you do? Show us.

6:36What did you do wrong, Phil? I kept firing around with the front pad.

6:43Used to get him for fun. He just head fell over, didn't he? It was his tash. It was his big tash. Come on, Langer and... Cook. Cook scored 111 at all five Australian venues. Has he? Is that right? Every single Australian. Can someone Google that? He didn't make one in England. But I'd go Cook. I think 10-11. You missed Slater though, didn't you? You don't know. The very end of Slater. Yeah. The very end of Slater. The 0-1 wasn't great. Don't know you young 'un. You would have seen Slater. He was explosive. It was at Edgbaston, I think, against. Was he Goffey at 4-4 in the first over? The Freitas?

7:20The Freitas, yeah. I mean, he just opened up that game, didn't he? I don't think Cook's a bad... Will, that's right, on Alistair Cook, it's just been torn on my ear, so well done. That's why you're a journalist. Cook or Slater? Right, I know we've got primarily an English crowd. Who wants Alistair Cook? It looks like Alistair Cook's going out. Alistair Cook. Looks like Alistair's going to join Justin Langer. Two left-handers. Number three. Oh, Ricky Ponton, Jonathan Trott. Gower. Gat. Gat. Gower. Gower averages 60 at number three in Asher's tests. 86, 87, 85, they won, didn't they? 400s in like 14 games.

8:03I feel as we're picking this team in the Barossa Valley. Oh, definitely. What a touch. Ponte wise. Ricky Ponting. You've got Ponting and you've got Booney. The other two. He's short leg as well. I think Gower was better, but those two probably had longer Asher's careers at three. But Gower was better in a short period. Gower or Ponting. You know, Ponting probably went up against better bowlers, didn't he, than Gower? Do we need three left-handers at the top of the order? There's a lot of left-handers. There's a lot of left-handers. But you don't have very pretty left-handers so far, so... We need a pretty...

8:32Aesthetically, we need a prettier player. So we'll go Ponting or David Gower. Those for Ponting. What about you, Vaughn? No, I'm not in their breath. Ponting? Gower? Oh, Ponting's got it. Who are we going for? Ponting. They want Jacob Bethel.

8:55Gower's got the highest average. Well, it's got to be Gower then. We're going to have to go against our team. And we get the overriding, do we? Oh, yes, I think we do. We might be chairs. Yes. Gower. Gower. Yeah, we'll have it. Well, yeah. What? The Gower. Ricky can be 12th. You tell him, Phil. Four. Right, four and five. So we've got players like Smith, Root, Clark. What a player he was. Damian Martin. Gower's actually at four and five on this list as well. Peterson. Harry Brook. KP. Lamb. Alan Lamb, yeah. Alan Lamb. KP. Steve Smith at four, surely. Steve Smith at four. So many Ashes runs. Yeah, he has been.

9:35Steve Smith at four. What's his average in Ashes cricket? He averaged over 100 last time. I thought it would be even higher. The average is that mixed here at home. That's 78. What was that when we were coming to him? He just got double under at Edgbaston and just batted for days. He averages 56 in Ashes cricket. 56 times, close enough. How many hundreds do you reckon he's got? 12. 12 Ashes. Throwing it out there, I'm just guessing. Is that right? Because he made runs like in Australia, in England twice. Even 13, 14, he got to. He's got 12 Ashes hundreds at an average of 56. Wow. There you go.

10:07Five, so we can pick Michael Clarke. There's someone you missed off your list. Another number, a number five. Steve Waugh. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I reckon he's got a higher average in Ashes than Smith does. And what a captain he was. Yeah. Well, he could go far. He's just glare at you. Yeah, look down the nose. What did he say to Nasser? He said, what was it about going... Did you go down to Nasser because you mentioned nose? LAUGHTER He said, he said... I think Wally was bowling at him and he said, can someone go and field under Nasser's nose? And the fielder went to deep extra cover. LAUGHTER

10:48Sorry, Nasser. Sorry, Nasser. We're going to leave out some great players here. I like Steve. Do you remember Steve Waugh? Steve Waugh. Nuggety. Never give it away. Good ball when he had hamstrings as well. A little bit of extra ball. KP. Do you want KP or Steve Waugh? So we've got Kevin Peterson, Steve Waugh, Damian Martin, Michael Clarke. Clarkey. Clarkey. You're going Clarkey, are you? I'll probably go KP. Over Steve Waugh. Yeah. You go Clarke over Steve Waugh. You won't be allowed back in the country. But like hundreds in 2005 Ashes and then he scored a double hundred in Perth once. Oh no, sorry, Adelaide and that was class.

11:26Playing Adelaide? Tricky. We might have to... We're playing Adelaide. What do you fancy? Adelaide Oval, KP. Eichel Clark averaged 40 in Ashes cricket. And Steve? Steve Wart, plenty. I'm going Steve. It's got to be Steve, isn't it? Plenty. KP? KP. Well, we can have Kevin at six. No, we're going all rounds at six. I have to say, I think Steve Waugh was the best captain I've played against. As a player, he was a brilliant captain. Is he captain this side? I think he's captain. I would have Steve Waugh as captain. But Barossa, Barossa Valley's going to be... War? War? We're going War 5. What about Mark Waugh in that middle?

12:07He could play. He brought you a bit off people. He got you out, didn't he? I got him out for your time. Oh, right, OK. Did you? He didn't always treat you with respect, did he?

12:18He's the most person I've got out in my... Yeah, and it was mostly him halfway down the wicket trying to smash over a long arm, wasn't it? Mold him through his legs at Lorde on 99. Mark Waugh, what a player. Yeah, he was. Let's go Steve Waugh. Steve Waugh, just the grit and determination. Right, all rounders at six, so we've got the likes of Botham, Stokes. I see both of them. Yeah, I see both of them. Well, I think Stokes is overtaking beefy now. What? In Ashes? Oh, in Ashes. But you're saying Stokes is better than Ian Botham. I think Stokes at the end of his career, and he's getting there now, will be a more...

13:03Yes, I think it will be a better all-round. As we speak now, you think Ben Stokes is better than Ian Botham? Not quite at the moment. What does he need to do? I think he needs to get a few more runners and some more fifers. Silly of him not to do that. Thanks for that, Phil. Alan Border. We're going both of them. No, Alan Border. Oh, I forgot AB. You've got to throw him in there. What a little player. Average 50, bold. Uncaptain. Yeah. And he's got a really good record in the act. And he averaged 55. Oh, we've had a stink career. Can we start again? Can we get rid of Gow? Can we have Borda at six?

13:44Yeah, he batted six, didn't he? Can Alan Borda keep? Can't get a keeper in there. Langer surely at his height must have kept once.

13:58We're going to leave out some legendary names. We are here. I mean, Alan Borda, he is Australian cricket, isn't he? He's the guru, he's the one that got them. Yeah, he was he said on the next one to speak to the opposition in 89 was too friendly before and yeah We're not talking to him. Have you seen the video of him? Yelling at Craig McDermott awesome. I just tells him to go home. That's right Alan Borda made his debut in 1978. So he's out. Oh, right. Okay from the day. Yeah, both of both of both

14:39I don't think Borda gets Has anyone got a ball robber? A ball robber We'll go with both OT by for Both of them Borda or Steve Waugh You know A, B, Steve Waugh We've gone Steve Waugh Yeah, Steve Waugh Listen I think Borda's got double the amount of wickets as Stokes in Ashes cricket and also double the amount of Freddie and averages a little bit less with a bat than those two so I think in Ashes he's still got those two 81 7. Yeah, and 81. He was pretty handy. I don't know what happened. Keeper Gilly, innit? Adam Gilchrist. No-brainer. Dead easier. Adam Gilchrist. Gilly. Gilly's just got a tequila out.

15:18I don't know if you've seen it on Instagram. He's got his own tequila. Oh, yeah? What's it called? I'll get back to you. OK. I'll get back to you. Warnier 8. Right, 9, 10 and 11. We've got the likes of McGrath, Harmson, Lee, Hoggard, Wokes, Woods, Gladstone Small, Willis, Broad Anderson lion there be many more that I've not mentioned well McGrath's got the garage number 11. Glenn. No no no question. What do you feel about Alderman you didn't read him out I'm gonna get the 21 in the ashes yeah Terry Terry all I did a session yeah 89 and 81 wasn't it? Yeah are we having Terry Terry Do you know who Terry Alderman is?

16:00Come on join in! Come on. Any names? Broad, Anderson? Broad! Broady, I'd say. He's got a lot of Ashes wickets. He averages 28. And there's about five guys who average a lot less with the same amount of wickets as him. It depends on whether you like the average or not. If you're David Warner, you'd probably pick Broad. Who are we playing? Three wickets in Ashes cricket, Stuart Broad. An average of 28. Eight for 15. What else are we talking about there? The Sabres. Cummins. Lee. I'm going to throw a name in there. Go on. Ryan Harris. What a bowler. Ryan Harris. Kids, you know Ryan Harris. He comes alive.

16:40I'm just trying to keep him awake. The modern name. I reckon he's got the best bowling average of anyone in the Ashes in that period. I think it's about 20, so even less than Alderman. KP says he's the best bowler he's ever faced. I mean, he was massive, he was fast and he was skilful. That ball-y bowl to cook him. Oh, Mitchell Johnson. Yeah, if we're going off performances, like Johnson's 40 wickets. It's big. That was a hype beat. He didn't travel. He didn't do it here, Phil. Stark, all these guys. I think they've got to have done it in both countries. Yes. You know, Mitchell had that series in Oz.

17:15He can be in the squad, but he's not. Have we got any English boys? Jimmy Anderson? What's his name? Nah. Nah? Not over there. You're at Jimmy, aren't you? I've got another one for him coming in as well. But no, he's, yeah, Jimmy's best wasn't necessarily in the Ashes. Yeah, he averages 36, I reckon. Bob Willis. Yeah, 81, I mean. Bob Willis. He started slightly before the 1980s, Bob. Not Bob Willis. Jimmy averaged 36 in the Ashes. Yeah. Yeah. He really struggled. Gillespie. The problem with Gillespie is the last series when he shouldn't have been playing, right? He was just a bit over there. Up until that point.

17:54McDermott. I think he took a lot of wickets in the Ashes, didn't he? Craig McDermott. When Alan Border wasn't threatening to send him home. He was quick too. He was the first player to sign for Yorkshire as an overseas. Was he? Yeah. And then he got injured. I bet he'll have a few. Merv. Big Merv. Merv's got a really good Ashes record, I reckon. Was it 93? Simon Jones. Simon Jones. Oh, four games. Well, he's a bit like Mitchell Johnson. Yeah. Johnson had that incredible series. Simon had a great series. How did Harmi go over in Oz? He missed the cook. We didn't start. Minus that first delivery.

18:31Minus that first delivery. Come on, we need two Sebers. We've got two Sebers. Where's Brett Lee? Brittley. Brittley. I think Alderman gets it. Average is 40. Terry Alderman. Terry Alderman. The Alderman. And Broaddermann. Alderman. Broadie. I think there's... Cummins, can you? I don't know. Oh, we've had Cummins. Yeah, we forgot. Hazelwood, Cummins and Stark. We've not even mentioned them. I feel like Broad's had more moments, but I wonder if Cummins has just been better altogether. Solid. I reckon Cummins. Cummins at number nine. That is a... Alderman. Alderman. Alderman. A-L-D. It's all right.

19:13Pat Cummins? Are we happy with Pat Cummins? With the bat as well. If we have to. You know, you're happy with Cummins over Broad? No? Stuart Broad? Well, I'll have a vote then. Stuart Broad? Got to be Brody. Pat Cummins? Oh, it's close. Right, rock, paper, scissors. Right, one of the youngsters out in the middle. Come out in the middle. Come out in the middle. Out in the middle. Someone from this side. Stephen. Stephen. Stephen, this is how we pick our final selection. This is Cummins and Broad. And it's best of three, rock, paper, scissors. I'll go one, two, three. It's on the three. One, two, three.

19:52Boom. That's one nil. One nil to Broad. One nil is best of three. Oh, yeah, of course, yeah. On the three. One, two, three.

20:03Broad is in! Broad is in!

20:07That's my love for the toss every Saturday. That's how you pick a team. G Pratt, 12 man. G Pratt, 12 man. Gary Pratt. Yes. Yeah, that's brilliant. Do you think selectors actually do that now and again when it gets close? It's not a bad way of doing it. Do you like that side? We haven't got a Brett Lee, then. We've got no pace. We've got no pace. You've got no Cummins. You have no Cummins. I've got no pace. We've got no pace. We do need him going to pace. Lee, 12th man. Here you go, Lee. Yeah, you want a bit of Brett Lee. Collins. Mitchell Johnson. They're all in the squad, aren't they? Yeah.

20:49Right, here we go. Hot takes. I didn't know what a hot take was until 20... Do you know what a hot take is for? Well, isn't it something that's a bit sort of controversial? I think so. It's an opinion that you have that not necessarily everyone else has. Correct. It's quite a strong view. Yeah. It's an unpopular opinion, right? So I've got a list of our fans and journalists. I'm going to start with Adam, Barmy Army. Zach Crawley to be the top run scorer. Yeah, I think so. I think he's a quality player with the ball on the up, bit of confidence from scoring the first test. I think we're going to see the best of him and he's going to be the top scorer in the series.

21:33And I also think first ball of the series, bowling first, Woody's going to take Kawhi's middle stump out to set the tone like the Aussies did to us in 2021. Right, that's there. First ball of the series. Zach Crawley, so what kind of tally are we talking for Zach Crawley? Are we talking... Cook, F... 700. 700? Yeah. A good rate as well, strike rate of what, 90? Something like that, yeah. There's a chance. I think there's a chance of him just going out there. We were saying earlier about, you know, just pressure off, go out there tall, back foot, front foot. He played well in the Void series at Sydney, didn't he?

22:07Yeah, 77. If he doesn't nick off... Can't you just see him just nicking off to second, third Super Bowl in the whole series? Really? What about that ball that nips back through the gate? Yeah, there's a gap. There's a few issues. There's a chance. There's a chance. There's a chance. There's a chance he's going to get 180 somewhere. You think there's a chance he'll make 700 in the series? Well, not perhaps 700. But, I mean, you know, I think there's a chance he could get on a roll. He could get on a roll and just... All of us sitting there going, oh, he's going to nick off, he's going to nick off and everything, and he might just shut us all up.

22:41Yeah, right. Shishir, this is a good one. England have picked four blokes who don't deserve to be there. Oh, hello. Very foreign smarts. Do you want a pen? I'm going to write these down. Yeah, well, like, you're sort of picking on faith, not really looking at your first-class system and picking on guys that are ready to go, like, playing test cricket. Like, there's, I mean, Bethel, what numbers does he have? Will Jax, Bashir. You can't get numbers if you don't play. Exactly. So why are they in the squad? Like, you're really picking on faith. You know, it's an uphill battle in Australia and I just...

23:20It's a big ask for them to come out and do well. So who are the four? I'm throwing Crawley in there. So the leading run score you're throwing in. So Crawley, Bathaloo, the other two? Jax, did you say? Yeah, Will Jax, Bashir. And Bashir? Yeah. So those four players shouldn't really be there. There's definitely more spinners in the first-class system that, you know, like tried and tested, could bowl 30 overs in a day. You need that sort of experience in Australia, but you've not picked that. Right, OK. That's a strong view. Will McPherson. England would have won the Ashes in 2023 if Jimmy Anderson hadn't played.

24:04Yeah. If they'd moved on from Jimmy earlier, England would have won that series. They were too faithful to Jimmy. Everyone thinks they'd cut him too soon, but I'd go the other way. Right, so you're saying that he's an absolute legend, unbelievable bowler, longevity, so much respect, but he shouldn't have played him. So which of the first two games would England have won? Because they won ahead in when he didn't play. I think the Oval Test when they won was, yeah, that's the only game they won when he was in the team. He didn't get a lot of polls, did he? Yeah, five or six, if you tell me. Mark Wood, they were way too slow to pick Wood and Wokes.

24:39Wokes, player of a series, Wood took 18 wickets. That spell would bow to Kawaja at Hedonley. Oh, down the hill. What do you reckon, Barmy Army? Jimmy Anderson? Did he cost England an Ashes victory in 23? A bit harsh. I don't think he cost them, but... No, I don't necessarily agree with that, no. It's fine. That's how hot takes work. That's why it's a hot take, Will, so that's a good hot take. Simon, being an English fan is more exciting than being an Aussie fan. Oh, absolutely. I mean, for so many different ways, like, for example, like, you know, being a fan, England play away a lot. So it gets travelled to these fantastic places all around the world.

25:21Australia hardly ever play away. I mean, what's the point in that? Also, I mean, Aussies have been so good for so many years, it just gets boring. It must be boring. We're in it all the time, surely. And also, yeah, and we have these, like, talismanic kind of, like, heroes that we can look up to and look back at and just think, yeah, like, yourself in Australia in 2003. three we've got Freddie got Peter's KP's these fantastic moments that we'll just like look up to just go yeah these amazing punch well you just go warning yeah it took loads graph yeah it took loads pointing yeah loads of runs whatever nothing stands out but we've got these moments you're like Frank Tyson you know Jim Laker all these I see both of them all these fantastic you know sort of like your iconic performances we can look back on and go yeah what do What do you reckon to that, Heidi?

26:07I mean, it's a pretty iconic Ashes tally for Australia, no? Yeah, that's all right. Yeah, but it's just boring. What you're basically saying is when England are bad, they're really bad. That is quite fun, isn't it? Whereas Australia are never really bad. Do you think England are the best team in the world to watch? I'm not saying the best team in Switzerland, but are they the best team to watch? Because they do bring us these weeks of incredible joy. and then the next week it's like, oh shit, what's gone there? They are, particularly the last four years, I don't think I've watched the team and been more kind of thrilled.

26:43You don't know what's going to happen every time you won. Never sure. No, never sure. Can we take, I know we've taken the moral victory in 2023, can we say that England are the best team to watch? Can we take that crown? One nil up in the ashes already for that, right? Yeah, it doesn't win us in ashes, but it gives us a little bit of, we're good to watch. The Aussie fans, Heidi, you're going to love watching them, aren't you? Yeah, I think I think Ben Stokes is incredible. I think he's driven that I think on one leg that man can do it Right on on that your hot take ideas. That comes is a better captain than Stokes Yeah, yeah, no I think tangibly speaking Pat Cummins has won something and Ben Stokes Hasn't Well, he won in Pakistan Okay, he won in New Zealand But you're talking of a trophy.

27:32Pat's won the World Cup. He's won a World Test Championship final. He's got the urn in his hand. Is it as simple as Ben Stokes' legacy as a skipper could be decided upon the next nine weeks? Got to be, yeah. 100%. Surely. He's not won a five Test Series since he's come in at all. I've got sun cream on for the hot takes. I don't want to get burnt. No, Stokes' legacy, he has to win in Australia now because I think, are we not all bored of, you know, two alls and playing some nice cricket? Why don't we go down there and win and come home with something, you know? And I mean, like the Oval we were saying earlier, that that test match against India, you've got to win that one.

28:13You've got a few runs to get on the fifth morning. You've got to take it home. Stephen, your hot take is England are not the moral champions we believe they are. I like news. So, well, first of all, what is the moral victory? And it's about winning in a way that we think is nice rather than actually winning. So we don't have to win the game as long as we play properly. There's lots of examples where England have not done that. So the first one that we'll cite against Australia is Carey at Lords, right? It was in the laws of the game. Bodyline was in the laws of the game in the 1930s, but we actually went out to hurt players and we pushed the limits there, even though we said that was against the spirit of the game.

28:58We love, in England, we love to be victims, don't we? We love losing. We love that kind of melodrama. We love losing. We do, though. We're obsessed by it. The whole Ashes only exists because we loved losing so much. We wrote a headline in a newspaper that said, we're burning the ashes of English cricket because it died today because we lost one game for the first time. And we sent those ashes over to Australia and we said, we're going to send this heroic team to go and reclaim these ashes and repatriate the body of English cricket. I mean, we're so melodramatic. And it doesn't just count with cricket.

29:32In football, all the moments that England nearly did it, the hand of God, Stephen Gerrard, and sorry, Frank Lampard's ghost goal in 2010, we would have lost both those games, whether those events happened or not. We would have lost at Lourdes, probably, whether Kerry did the stumping or not. We probably weren't going to win the Ashes in 2023 if it didn't rain. And then you can also throw it the other way. In 2005, you guys won it on the fifth day and you're coming out with your brollies and the Aussies were coming out with their Bondi Beach sunglasses on saying, it's bright and it's sunshine, we've got to play.

30:03And then England did the other and said, it's too wet, we've got to draw the game and win the Ashes. And it's those moments of it could have been. And actually, if you flip it the other way, it's happened to us. It's happened in favour of us as well. 2005, that final wicket at Edgbaston. And off the bat, who was it? Kasparovic. Technically wasn't out, but no-one complained about it on the day, did they? And I'm not slating any of this. I'm not slating any of this because... So in some ways, England have never won anything. England have never won anything. We don't like it. They've won my heart over.

30:35We don't like it. But I don't care because why do you watch sport and why do you play sport if it's not for moments like that to talk about it for the sledging, going down the pub and chatting to your mates about how much we hate Kerry? You know, we need that cricket. He's a lovely chap, I'm sure, but I don't want to play a sport if I haven't got something like that. I don't want it to be formulaic and boring. Like, the 2005 Ashes, watching that box set, you can still watch it, and that's what got me into cricket, is the DVD box set. Because of those moments. These kids are going, what a DVD. Yeah, you could probably find it somewhere as well on the internet now if you want to watch it.

31:15But it's that melodrama and the complaining and the moaning that we love in the UK. And it's a miserable country sometimes. But I love the misery. When I flew back from Australia at the beginning of the year, when I went on a holiday, I walked out the terminal and it was grey and cold and miserable. And I put Jerusalem on in my headphones and I had a little weep because I thought I'm so happy to be home. It was a replay. Oh, Stephen, thank you. Thank you for that ten-minute rant.

31:51The Poms whinges, yeah? Yeah, absolutely. What all the Aussies will be saying in a month's time. 100%. I think you guys should start shopping for a new perfume bottle. To make a new trophy. Well, on that, Jared, it's at goodareas. That's your Twitter handle, or X handle, I presume. Is that right? That's just my business. Is that right? Goodareas. Like it love it good areas and there's your hot take The ashes is Australia's fourth most interesting series, correct? You need me to Definitely do Australia India is the most interesting one now, right? Like there's so much more high for Australia India Australia and World Cups is a much more interesting Thing over the last couple of years when they've done well when they haven't and Australia South Africa You got sandpaper you got faffa Natal You've got all these different things happening.

32:42I would say that's a more fun series as well. So it's fourth It's nice. I look I know that you guys like it. You say that England now a minnow Minnows take it too far, but on the verge No, look I understand it's very important for English culture, but in Australia, it's just another series So would they would would the Oz would you rather be India in Oz or England in Oz India England India. There you go. I think Ashes brings the most out of everyone. Cricket fans that don't really even watch cricket start watching it. It's such a big deal. I think last year, watching India, I think the crowds were starting to realise that India is the future and that's where everything is.

33:25I've never seen so much hype for a series as I saw for the India-Australia one. So I think fans are coming over. I think old school fans still like the Ashes a lot. But if you look at the recent history, I think there's been a lot more interesting things happening in some of those other series than there have been in that one. But day one to three tickets were sold out months in advance for all tests. Yeah, but the India series were sold out as well. As I'm saying, there is a bit of a change going on because India is now the best team, right? And not only do they bring all the attention, but they were the number one team going into that.

33:54They wanted to beat Australia to cement their legacy. So it's a little bit different. Maybe if England had been consistently winning after 10-11 in Australia, even winning the odd test, maybe it would be a little bit different. But we are talking interesting rather than, you know, casual fans don't know anything about Indian cricket or they know about the Ashes. But actual interesting, give me faff and a towel, give me sandpaper gate. So day four, the Aussies aren't buying tickets. Is that right? Do they sell them? I just know day one or three. Australians don't really go to day four or five. It's usually a barbie army on their own.

34:27Even if Australians win in the game, there's no Aussies there. Simon, you're the last hot take. Mitch Marsh should be opening the batting for Australia. Yeah. I just think it's a home test match for him, obviously the first test being in Perth, and I think our plan is going to be to hit them with pace, like Wood and Archer, and I think he's one of Steve Smith to one side, but I think he's probably the most comfortable with pace and bounce out of the Australian options, in my opinion. I agree. I would open with Mitchell Marsh if I was Australian. Two reasons. He's in good form. I think Kawadji needs a partner that can get on the front foot.

35:09I saw Mitchell Marsh face Wood when he was bowling as quick as I've seen anyone bowl in recent time, and he bopped him. And Woody actually on this show a few months ago said the one batter that he hated bowling to was Mitchell Marsh. Bowls a few of them as well. And I think the Aussies need someone to try and get on top of Geoffrey Archer early. If they allowed Archie to get off to a start and get a bit of confidence up He just kind of will grow and grow so I would be very tempted if I was Australia to throw Mitchell Marsh at the top Has that not even been spoken about in us? Briefly. Cummins is so conservative.

35:44I just don't think it's his vibe I think if they go down maybe if they're one or two nil down like because they can actually do some best ball themselves They've got some guys they could bring in as well. Maybe they would go towards that But they're very conservative the way they run that team. I just don't think they'd ever do it. Plus, Mitch Marsh has basically come out in an interview and said he's going to get pissed for the first two minutes. Yeah, but he says that all the time anyway. That's a pretty standard Mitch Marsh comment, to be fair. Gone fishing or something. The one dad just a few days ago in Perth where the ball was zipping around, he looked technically the best player for Australia.

36:17All right, Boomer wasn't there, but he's still zipping around a bit. He hit this poor cut shot for six. Over six, extra cover. Crazy. Yeah, for intimidation sort of value, I think it'd be a good choice. Because I don't think Wooden Archer are going to be worried about Uzzi or Jake Wetherall. OK, listen, they're all great players, but as a bowler, you see him walking out first up, you know that if you're not spot on and you're feeling a little bit nervous, he can destroy you. Phil, what's your hot take? Show Bashir to play in the first Test match. Why is that a hot take? Oh, no. I'm not going to be in the squad.

36:55I think he might play and I think they might pick him as well. Well, no, I think... I think, listen, listen... It's not a hot take, is it? Eh? It's not a hot take. Well, what's a hot take? It's got to be a little bit radical, you know? It's a Luke-warm take. It's a Luke-warm take. OK, it's a Luke-warm take. I think that they've primed him for this test match. Thanks for that, Phil. And I think you need a spinner in every test match as well. Do you now? Yeah, I do. Right, OK. Yeah.

37:31Right, we're going to finish with a quiz. England versus Australia. And it's quite simple. You're getting your England-Australia team. So Heidi, Shishir, Jared versus the Barmy Army, Will, Simon and Stephen. You can all join in, England and Australian fans. And it goes like this. So you're going to take it in terms to give me a name of a player from a selected category, three categories, and it's the top 20. So the top 20 most ashes runs. So Australia, you can start. You've got to give me a name in the top 20. If you don't get one of the names in the top 20, you lose. And we keep going until someone Fs up.

38:16All right? Top 20. Top 20 most ashes runs. Bradman? Bradman, correct. Oh, going that far. Hobbs. Who? Correct. Jack Hobbs. Correct. Did you bowl against Hobbs? No, mate. Might have done. So we've got Bradman and Hobbs. Steve Smith. Correct. Steve Smith's in there. Alistair Cook. Alistair Cook, correct. Oh, my God. And Ponti. Missed the outside edge, that one. Steve Waugh. Correct, Steve Waugh is in that list. Number five, actually. 1930s or 1940s. Sutcliffe. Yes, correct, he's number eight. You have me worried about it. Number eight in the list. Very good. We'll have Alan Borda. A Borda, correct.

39:13Number four in the list. David Gower. Gowat, yes, number six in the list. Very, very good. He made our all-time, didn't he? We haven't done more of Ponting. Oh, no, I did. Oh, I did. Is it us? Ricky Ponting. Ricky Ponting, number 14. It's getting tight now, this is good. Clyde. Oh, quite a bit good show. I'd be quiet if I was. I'm not biased at all in this game. Will, your team please. Len Hutton. There's a lot of guys from back there. Len Hutton, correct, number 17. Good shout. Came from the back row with the bucket out on ice. Good job. Australia, your turn. Boycott? Geoffrey? Number 11 in the list.

40:072 ,579 runs for Sir Geoffrey. England, your go. Can we know an English place? I don't know. I just did it. Oh, they're struggling. This is... Let's have a look. I can't remember who they've seen. No, no, I can't. Go on, roughly you. Oh, they're debating. Oh, they're not getting him. No, they're not. They're not getting him. What about him? Oh, the Aussies should get that. They're not getting tips. Well, Justin Langer.

40:39I've got my glasses. I mean... England, Australia, 1-0 up. 1-0 up to Australia. Right, next category. Most Ashes wickets, England to start first. You're 1-0 down. Broad. Number three in the list. Warn. Number one in the list. McGrath. Number two in the list. Here we go. Nathan Lyon. Yeah. Number 11 in the list. Ian Basin. Number six in the list, 128 wickets for Ian Botham. Bob Willis. It's us, isn't it? I'm sorry. Dennis Lilly. Number five in the list, 128 wickets for DK Lilly. England? Bob Willis. Bob Willis, correct. Number seven, 123 for Bob. Terry Olderman. Terry Olderman. 20th. Oh! 100 wickets for Terry Olderman.

41:38England

41:49Jim Laker

41:592-0 to Australia 2-0 Right, just for a bit If an Australia have won this series, obviously England like to win the last test and play a memorial victory if they possibly can. The most catches, because England are 2-0 down, you can start. The Rallister. Number 10, 40 catches. Ponting, yep. Ponting, 41 catches, yeah. Number 9. Smith. Steve. Smith at the top, 57 catches. Joe Root? 12th with 38 catches good shout Oh what a slip of me Mark War 43 catches for Junior number seven Gilly? Keepers in there No, no, no He meant Mark Taylor Mark Taylor, yes 46 catches for Tubby Taylor at number five Ian Batham Number two, 54 catches for Beef Dropped a few as well didn't he?

43:05Michael He did drop many beefy I did So do I Michael Clark Number 19 33 catches

43:20Shame one Don't be there born he's second slip. I stopped a lot. It's not in Wow

43:35That's a moral veteran. He did drop KP though, didn't he? Maybe he did. Hi, thanks for that. She made it a five mils. Brilliant. Thanks so much. Thanks for joining in with the Ashes debate brought to you by Betfair. Thanks to Jared, Will, all the team, the Barmy Army, Shashir, Heidi, Simon, Stephen, all of you. One last chance to shout out the series result. So January the 8th, you can shout out now. What's the score going to be? Shout it out. Three teams. 3-1. That's probably the best way to finish. Like and subscribe, and we'll see you next time on another Ashes Debate. Well done, everyone. Well done.

44:15Thank you. APPLAUSE

44:40Well done, everyone.

45:05Thanks for listening and thanks to our partners, Betfair. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and you won't miss an episode. And if you want to support the show, please leave us a five-star review and help others find it too. See you next time.