Truth About England Selector, Retirement & McCullum’s Future | Stick to Cricket EP 45

0:00Michael Vaughan: Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. Hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

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1:01Michael Vaughan: Here we go. Hey. Has he brought an old shiul fridge? Really? I've never noticed this segment. Have you ever noticed this segment, Chef? Look at this. Get crisps and all sorts in here. Have you seen this segment, Cass? Seen in here? What is it? Look at all teasers. Yours? I didn't know this. I didn't know this existed. Oh, grey. There's everything. There we are. There we go. Morning. Morning. Morning. Who do you want me? Morning, everyone. You're off the table. It's on the table. Dazzler. Keep eating. There you go, Goffy. Dazzler.

1:44Darren Gough: You've got your favourites, lad, jellies. Percy piggies. There you go. Oh, and they stick to your teeth, all these ones. Well, they do a little bit. Especially when you... We'll give you a minute. They're not turkey. They're not turkeys.

1:55Michael Vaughan: We're looking to our heart, Goughy.

1:57Darren Gough: You what?

1:58Michael Vaughan: Looking to our heart, pictures we drew of each other.

2:00Phil Tufnell: Is that Bumble's bat, that?

2:03Michael Vaughan: Bumble's bat?

2:04Phil Tufnell: What are you doing? No, it's Cat's bat.

2:07Michael Vaughan: There's Cat's bat down there. Yeah. We haven't done a demo for a while. Well, no, no. We haven't had any cricket, have we? Well, we haven't had any cricket, no. It'd be nice. Any chance the season can start? I know. We've usually, I know. I feel like I've just been treading water for a couple of months. Yeah. Yeah. Haven't been doing anything.

2:25Darren Gough: I don't know if I can get up here. I have this chair, innit?

2:27Michael Vaughan: Oh, well, there you go. There you go. You're in there, mate. You're in there. How you been, mate? All right.

2:32Darren Gough: I'm all right.

2:32Michael Vaughan: Yeah? All right, mate. On good form, body all right? Golfing nicely? Was it Chester races last week? Oh, was he? Sorry. Chuck and rice were there, weren't they?

2:42Darren Gough: No, I've got a great story on that. Basically, five of us went. We all went home separately.

2:49Michael Vaughan: Oh.

2:50Darren Gough: Two went on the wrong train.

2:51Michael Vaughan: Oh, nice. Good day.

2:53Darren Gough: Separate trains as well.

2:54Michael Vaughan: Yeah.

2:55Darren Gough: One ended up in a... In fact, I got a message sent. Don't even know it. Somewhere between Chester and Stockport. Yeah. And it was last train, and he got off for some reason. He said he didn't know what date it was. He got off. He thought you were at Stockport, but he was seven stops away from Stockport. Oh, gone too early. And he was in the middle of nowhere, and then he went to walk to this pub, Green Something Hotel, but it was a pub. All men in it. And he got a taxi home, 220 quid.

3:26Michael Vaughan: Back to Barnsley?

3:27Darren Gough: One. Barnsley. One, a mate from school, fell down, smashed all his eye. Oh, no. Ear injury. It was only me. All right.

3:36Michael Vaughan: You got back home from Chester?

3:39Darren Gough: Yeah. Believe it or not, I got Chester to crew.

3:42Michael Vaughan: Yeah.

3:43Darren Gough: I had 40-minute delay in crew, thankfully, last train to MK. I'd sobered up at the time.

3:51Michael Vaughan: I've got to tell you, you'd have met them at Essex. Your two mates, Chuck and Lice. You'd have met them back in the 90s playing for England. These two Barnsley pals that went... How come they didn't play for Yorkshire? They were there every game.

4:07Darren Gough: Do you know what else they did as well? When Barnsley got promoted, Anthony Kay scored a penalty. They went back up and they both got on team bus and they were on team bus they did so they did team bus with Barnsley all the way back from Wembley from Cardiff stayed in there because Wembley were going and then they got home and then they went to town all tour next day in suits Barnsley suits and everything but they used to come everywhere with me you'll have met them

4:36Phil Tufnell: so do you follow the Dons do you follow MK Dons or not no I'm not because have they got promoted yeah they have they've gone into League One I don't follow

4:44Darren Gough: I don't I basically bought a box there when my kids were growing up because there were no football team to support rather Luton or MK Dons you mean there's no football team not Luton again well there ain't who else is there Luton and MK Dons what's wrong with Luton

4:57Michael Vaughan: did you play against Barthes this year Luton not great ground yeah did you play this year did you

5:02Darren Gough: yeah Barthes won 5-0 one of them

5:04Michael Vaughan: there you go you used to play a bit of football didn't you he was a good player the Bobby hey the Bobby what position were you

5:13Darren Gough: what were you midfield I'm at my Dexter so I'm left from right foot so I was playing centre but I played left back when I went to above room. I'll tell you the story if you want. I'll shorten it but people don't actually know exactly what happened in my foot but I can tell you exactly as it is. No problem. Play anywhere mate. Up front, boom, get in.

5:36Phil Tufnell: What about goals? You're not big enough for goals are you? I am Peter the Cat, me mate.

5:43Michael Vaughan: He's a goalkeeper as well. I'll tell you I was out the other Saturday in Sheffield with David Hurst. And we got on to you. Sheffield Wednesday? Yeah, yeah. And Hurst from Barnsley. Similar kind of age, aren't you?

5:55Darren Gough: Yeah, a year older.

5:56Michael Vaughan: He said he met you when you were about 18 talking about why have you chosen cricket? You should have chosen the red shirt. Has that been a regret?

6:06Darren Gough: A little bit for a while. But when I retired totally from cricket, I went and played a full season in a good standard league and I played up front. So when I retired 2008, I came back down south and played for Stukeley. Did you? First team. Scored in the cup final, finished top scorer, retired, never played again. Oh, I did. I played in that World XI versus England. I played in midfield with Gaza, Hodge. Oh, my God.

6:34Michael Vaughan: And I thought, after that. Was the cat playing? You wouldn't know, didn't you? No, I wouldn't.

6:38Darren Gough: So after that game, I said, I'm never playing again. I said, I can't beat that. I played next. I was in midfield with Gaza. it was just like oh my god it was just like ridiculous yeah

6:47Phil Tufnell: and who were the other one Gazza and who Odgie Steve Hodge Steve Hodge

6:52Darren Gough: got married on sold it what five million yeah

6:55Michael Vaughan: the shirt you're right yeah the shirt he was going to give it a terrible

6:58Darren Gough: how do you want your shirt to be worth now well

7:00Michael Vaughan: not quite five million I wish it were I wish it were do you have any of your old shirts I got rid of them all I give so many I look back now not just cricket shirts I got me out I got me out do you know like Retro football shirts, now they're worth a fortune. I had every Wednesday kit from around 82.

7:18Darren Gough: There's a website that you buy them all off. I've just got one and I got Ronnie Glavin. I bought one with Ronnie Glavin signed because growing up, my football hero at Barnsley was Ronnie Glavin. The Ronnie Glavin? From Celtic. All right, I remember him. Unbelievable, mate. Thunder thighs. He was an unbelievable player. Thunder thighs? Him and Ian Banks, both of them, the biggest size, both of them, I've noticed. Because all footballers back then, All they used to do, wasn't it, was just leg weights. They work. They do leg weights. So that's all they had.

7:46Michael Vaughan: On those machines?

7:47Darren Gough: Yeah, that's all they used to do, man. Yeah, yeah.

7:49Phil Tufnell: It was unbelievable back in them days. We had Steve Bruce on as a guest, and he played against Beefy, didn't he? He said he played against Beefy. No nonsense, Beefy. Because he really played at Scunthorpe. Yeah. Beefy was decent. How was your knee playing in the end? What? Football. How was your knee? Back then, I'd not had the metal plates put in then,

8:08Darren Gough: so it was still all right. Just used to go to Germany, get it drained and play on Saturday. Perfect. Have you had a replacement, though? I've got what they call an osteotomy. What's that? A metal femur. Oh.

8:23Michael Vaughan: How does that work? What, the big one? The big one's your femur, isn't it?

8:26Darren Gough: Because I was young when I had it to do a full knee replacement, so this was a bigger operation, but I was still young enough and strong enough to have it. So basically what Fred had, Fred had a small one didn't he on his what's that one Tibia

8:42Michael Vaughan: Tibia Tibia Tibia so Fred had a Freddie Flintoff

8:45Darren Gough: yeah so Fred had a small one which is about his is about that big about two or three yeah there's metal plates here so he's got he had about two or three in there I've got six in my theme in my theme so that's your thigh isn't it but I had to because otherwise because I was so young if I'd have had a knee replacement and I needed another one probably.

9:09Phil Tufnell: Because when you landed on your front foot, you landed on your toe, didn't you? Yeah, but it's my back leg. Oh, is it?

9:17Darren Gough: The twist. It was on the footholds. I did it in the footholds in New Zealand.

9:22Phil Tufnell: The only foothold injury. But there's not many fastballers like him who landed on his toe.

9:28Darren Gough: I still can't believe it when I think about it.

9:30Michael Vaughan: Why, when Strictly come dancing, Tinkle Toes. Oh, the champion, yeah. Champ. Oh, go. Oh, show us that samba again. I'm not showing the samba.

9:39Darren Gough: We're not doing samba. The samba's one of the artists. You can do that, mate. Not the samba. No, which is the one. That's when you kick your leg. The fog's trying it.

9:49Michael Vaughan: The tango. Tango, give us the tango. That can't be the tango. Go on, tango. He does this everywhere. I do the tango every week. He's sort of...

9:59Darren Gough: Jakarta.

9:59Michael Vaughan: Yeah, there you go, isn't he? And then he's...

10:06Phil Tufnell: It's only the 12th time he's done it. How many episodes have we had? First time he's done it sober, anyway.

10:11Darren Gough: Did you do an Argentine dango? No, thank God.

10:15Phil Tufnell: Can you two dangle? Do the Argentine dango.

10:19Michael Vaughan: Go on, come on, give us a dangle. No, he won it. I got slung out early, thank God. No, you didn't, you did well. You get to Blackpool, wasn't it? I did get to Blackpool.

10:28Phil Tufnell: Nice, nice Blackpool.

10:29Darren Gough: I reckon you'd have been a good cha-cha-cha. I did a good cha-cha. Go on, give us a cha-cha. I think he would have done a good cha-cha.

10:34Phil Tufnell: You've got the movement. You know the basket arse.

10:40Michael Vaughan: Yeah, he's good. No, he's birthday the week, the comrade in London. He had Oller and James rock up. Anyway, sat next to him at the table. Nothing was said. We're having a few glass. I didn't get him out. I was the representation from Steve to Cricket. All of a sudden, we go in the bar for another few, and he's like, oh, we can go back in the room now. Tables have been moved aside. Ola and James give us a dance, cha-cha-cha, and they got us all, that's how you know that. That's how you know that.

11:06Darren Gough: Cha-cha-cha is a good one. But it's always the first one you do on the show, isn't it? And I'd literally only had a shot, because I was, Cross England did well at Ashes, basically. They wanted a cricketer who could do it. Yeah. And I'd retired. What year? I didn't go to Pakistan. It was 05, wasn't it?

11:21Michael Vaughan: It was 05 that you won it? Yeah.

11:23Darren Gough: So I got asked to go to Pakistan. I went, I'm going to give that one a miss this year. You'd just won the Ashes. I thought I'm going to spend some time at home. And they asked me to do it and it was short notice because they were desperate for a cricket hour, so I went on it. But I hardly had any practice for that first week. And I thought, I was desperate to get kicked out. Of course, you got paid saying when you went out first week or last. I was desperate to get kicked out. For the first two weeks, I didn't give an absolute, get me out of this show. Because I thought after the first one, the text I got from Fred, all of you, I mean, was just horrendous.

11:56Darren Gough: I said, get me off this show. But then it all changed. Week three, he did a quick step. Let me entertain you, Robbie Williams. Whoa, Robbie. He turned me. Yeah. I'd gone. Yeah. Right, get me on. I'm doing the same hours as Colin Jackson, Joey Ball. Six hours a day, I would hack it. And that was it. Won it. Got the bug week three.

12:16Michael Vaughan: Won it. Have you still got the ball? Have you still got the glitter ball?

12:18Darren Gough: All three of them, mate. Have you? Yeah. When is it? What week was the tight leather suit? This was special. The week? The main show championship. Did you wear a tight singlet, didn't you? Week one. Was it week one? With town show. Three lions. On top. Di Monty's on them as well, just to really play. Oh, mate, honestly, get me off. God, I thought that was towards the end. It was terrifying. Scary, though, wasn't it? Scary.

12:41Phil Tufnell: What about the bloke on the panel? He said that you got an hanging basket. Arse hanging out like an hanging basket. Remember the other one? No, that was Len.

12:50Michael Vaughan: Len, go on. Len, Len, seven. Yeah, but he said my arse was hanging out like an hanging basket. Yeah. Where's the other bloke? He looked like a mass murderer of all, didn't he? 18 names.

13:00Phil Tufnell: He did look like a mass murderer. Craig Revel Horwood. 18 names.

13:04Michael Vaughan: Yeah, Craig.

13:05Phil Tufnell: How did you get on with him?

13:06Darren Gough: Craig, yeah, Craig. Got on well with Craig. He's got a lot of drinking, mate.

13:10Michael Vaughan: He's a great drinker.

13:12Darren Gough: But I was lucky. Arlene and Len, I got on well clothes. Arlene, fill it. She really... She kept going on about my hands and all that sort of stuff where I didn't get, you know. Because she had to do that, don't she? What is it, that? I don't know.

13:25Michael Vaughan: There's only me who you left But you never forget it I'd pay a lot of money You're not a dancer are you? No

13:33Darren Gough: Let's get it Why wouldn't you do it? Cookie would be magnificent Imagine how good he'd look Exactly In a sequence

13:38Phil Tufnell: Whatever Cookie

13:40Michael Vaughan: You'd be a ledge on that Ashes next summer So cricket's in the forefront Of people's minds At the end of next year Get on that show

13:46Darren Gough: You can't be any worse than Swanee Rock up with a lamb And him I thought Swanee would have been Yeah I did alright

13:53Michael Vaughan: Rock in Did alright

13:55Darren Gough: I'd love to see Gucci on it, though, I know. Gucci? Gucci would be hilarious, wouldn't it?

14:02Michael Vaughan: Before we get started, I'd like to thank our partners, Betfair. So just hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Enjoy the show.

14:16Phil Tufnell: The Daily England. He walks in, not playing in the game, dressed as Father Christmas. My team is

14:24Darren Gough: And I think it will be With the glasses as well I like the glasses I watched four balls I said This is a guy Who's going to play for England In the next two years

14:31Phil Tufnell: He got lacked by Dougie Brown No he was cycling Dougie ran past him

14:36Darren Gough: If they went down For someone who played for England Who's done all the roles In the game I thought I might just get this We went for a safer option I said What do you mean safer I said He's Australian I said That's not a safer option Is it You're opinionated, aren't you? We've just seen your very opinionated. Of course I'm opinionated. For this role, I don't think you should have even got an interview. I'm very relaxed. Gothball.

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15:48Michael Vaughan: Goff Charles, what are you up to these days?

15:51Darren Gough: Bits and pieces, mate. I've been an ambassador for a few companies and then I do a bit of coaching, still on franchise comps and then I do some comps. I'm in Belgium next month. What's in Belgium? The new league coming out. Chocolate. Another new league. Which one? European league. European league. When's that start?

16:10Michael Vaughan: When's that start? I thought that was September.

16:12Darren Gough: No, that's the other one. That's another one where they've all been fed out as though they've all put their own money in, but they haven't.

16:19Michael Vaughan: But that's your opinion. Just being given shares, yeah. That's another Europe. I'll probably be in that one as well. Right, and you're going coaching or commentating?

16:27Darren Gough: I'll do the Canada coaching. When's that? I think it's August. It's not Europe, is it, Canada? No, no, Adrian, it's the right trip. Best golf courses on the circuit. Are you head coach? Yeah. I wouldn't like playing under the ballpark. Well, I did the PSL, didn't I? But I pulled out of that one after I picked the team last year. I did the one in Guyana as head coach. They asked me to do then the PSL, which I agreed.

16:51Michael Vaughan: Guyana, the Caribbean Premier League?

16:53Darren Gough: Yeah, no, for... It was a Guyana million-dollar tournament where they picked the four or five teams that play. So our head coach of Lahore Calanders. Right. Yeah, it's a big one. No, no, I didn't even... Yeah, well, you don't really watch cricket, though, do you?

17:09Phil Tufnell: Well, you can't throw agsators. Well, you don't do. You can't throw agsators. You don't do your reels, let's be honest.

17:13Darren Gough: Look, you're either on the farm or you're running. So harsh. So, where was I?

17:23Michael Vaughan: You picked a team.

17:24Phil Tufnell: No, you've gone from Belgium to Canada. No, no, I'm just saying the tournaments are out there. There's that many, Bumble, you get lost. Tell us about this European, because it looks as if, what you're saying, there's two European leagues starting. They were all the great and the good saying, that's different than what you were in Belgium.

17:41Darren Gough: The Belgian one's the first one. It's only a nine-day tournament, right? It's a nine-day tournament. Who's in it? Well, teams from Belgium. Just Belgian teams. I don't know. I looked at the team. So not a European team. I'm communicating on that one, so I don't have to look at... I'm not bothered about that.

17:55Michael Vaughan: What kind of players are we talking, playing in that? Hercule Poirot?

18:00Darren Gough: Vincent Company? No, it'll be... A lot of the Aussies.

18:03Michael Vaughan: Good to brew. All right, yeah.

18:05Darren Gough: Obviously, a lot of English players will be playing in it. I think we've got a few English players playing in it. I don't know if Ravi's over there doing it, but he might be doing stuff with comms over here, I don't know. But you've got the usual English players that will be in it. I think Moe might be in it. Samit? Samit? Yeah, all those sort of guys. It's a nine-day tournament. It's a nice little trip. I've not been to Belgium. No, lovely. Good being. I like to, when I've not been somewhere, they ring me up. I'll say, have I been? Do I like it? What's the golf like? I'll do it. So, like Nepal, I'd never been to Nepal, right?

18:40Darren Gough: Oh, wow. We were going to go there in 2007. What a place, mate. I enjoyed it. I loved it. Stick to cricket in a pool.

18:47Michael Vaughan: Himalayas? There we go.

18:48Darren Gough: Yeah, loved it. Loved it. We're lovely people. I've been, yeah. Enjoyed the cricket, the atmosphere. Honestly, it was so good and I'm glad I did it. So I did it once and I've done it.

18:57Michael Vaughan: What's your coaching sort of style? I'm very relaxed.

19:01Darren Gough: Golf ball. We like to listen. People who know me. Golf ball. Look, I'm one of them people where I like playing a positive round of cricket. That's the way I play it anyway. I don't know any other way.

19:15Phil Tufnell: Aggressive cricket.

19:18Darren Gough: Aggressive cricket. But I still have that old, not old school, but I still believe in certain parts of the game. Suck it up. Basically, Australian way of cricket for me is still the best. Suck it up. And it has been for years. And that's why they've been number one more than any other team. because certain parts of the game, when you have to dig in, they do it. You know? They know when to sit in, let's sit in here, let's just bat for 15 overs and then we'll go again. And that's what they've done for years and it's the best brand and that's why they're number one more than any other team.

19:55Phil Tufnell: And how do you see India? How do you see the India team against Australia?

20:00Darren Gough: What, test matches? Yeah. Test matches. Well, where are we playing it, in India or Australia? Both. Well, I'm not so sure about India playing test cricket. I think they rely heavily on Bumbra with the ball. A good ball. He's the best, isn't he? Old format cricketer, I think. But again, he's been hammered the last three or four years. Tired. And it gets hard as a bowler when you're hammered like that. It gets hard work. He's looked tired in this IPO, if we're going to be honest. But his skill factor is massive. He's hard to face. There's loads of those bowlers. I'm sure Vaughan will tell you and Cookie, when you play against somebody like Malinga and you just can't line yourself up.

20:38Darren Gough: I think Bumrah's one of them as well. He's just so quick off the pitch.

20:42Phil Tufnell: He comes at you. So getting back to your career and you mentioned Bumrah, if you'd have been managed better with workload, would that have helped you? Absolutely. Yeah.

20:54Darren Gough: Absolutely. I think realistically, when I look back at my life now, I mean, when I look back at it as a cricketer, it'd be nice to have had more than one year as a central contractor player. Yeah. I told Manida, they've soon been you, don't they,

21:05Phil Tufnell: when you get injured. But getting back to when we were sort of together in the 90s and you were trying to get like Corky and Fraser, Malali, you, to have a rest. So many of the players said, no, no, no, I want to play. Yeah, I did, I don't want to play. Now, the big difference was that these lads wanted to play because you got paid to play. Well, absolutely. That's it. You weren't on a contract. You're invited to play for England. two and a half grand so the lads are saying I want to play that's exactly what

21:38Darren Gough: well I can't remember what year it was when Franks he played they asked me to rest they asked me to rest at Trent Bridge for a one day and I went no chance we want to give Franks a debut I always believe you don't give someone a debut unless they deserve it I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it I just think you don't put someone in just to give them a game that's my mentality at the time It's like with England at football. I don't believe in friendlies you get an England cap for a friendly. What's that about? If we got caps for friendlies, we'd have about 200 more each, which games we played. So they asked me to rest.

22:13Darren Gough: I went, no chance. They asked Caddy. He went, OK, I'll rest. But I didn't want to rest. I wanted to play. Because to me, it's about playing every game, getting as many wickets as you can. Because, like I say, you're a long time retired. And I have been.

22:26Phil Tufnell: I've been retired 20-odd years now. Before central contracts, you got payment if you played for England. That's it.

22:34Michael Vaughan: Even now, if you're on a contract and you don't play, you get a payment. If you're in the squad, you get a payment. Or you get injured. If you didn't play, you didn't go on holiday.

22:44Phil Tufnell: There you go. You and your holiday. Or you didn't go on holiday. In sort of one-day cricket, we were a good side in one-day cricket, and then you'd bring in that, you've got to vary your pace. You know, drop your pace, and the lads flatly refused. They said, no, I'm not bringing my average speed down. I ain't doing it. Gus wouldn't do it. He wouldn't do it. Well, he couldn't go anywhere.

23:09Darren Gough: Do you know, you're right. I mean, that's when it first came in, free serve, wasn't it? The speed goal. That was a nightmare when he first saw it. Because he did, he used to come up, because crowd believe everything they see. And then you suddenly bowl in, say, 87, and then it comes up, 79, slow ball. Oh, lovely. and then you went can you hear a crowd going that's it I'm not bringing miles because then you put average speed they should take out your slower balls yes that were it only no change

23:35Michael Vaughan: is it right in the 90s there was it was what was it called what's the sponsor FreeCert FreeCert you got 10 grand for it and were you an ambassador for the company

23:45Darren Gough: for FreeCert

23:46Michael Vaughan: yeah

23:46Darren Gough: no I won it three times in a row

23:48Michael Vaughan: but were you the ambassador when you won it yeah

23:53Darren Gough: but it was for the quickest ball in an international summer and I've won it three times in a row. There you go.

23:58Phil Tufnell: It used to be on the side of the ground. I remember. It used to put you off. When did he? He used to shout up. Oh, no. 90! 90! He used to shout up to the Balkans. I did. 90! There you go. And then he showed down at Caddy. Caddy could be down at Fine Lake. 90!

24:15Darren Gough: But do you know, the four, I'd never played, I think I said this to someone the other day, back then, selection was all over the shop. Oh, Jesus. And my favourite four I would have loved to have played a test match with, we never played together. Oh, go on. Which was myself, Carrick, Hedley and Cork. That four never played a test match. Really? Never. Yeah. I can't believe that. Who was the coach at that time? Me, probably. No, Bumble didn't pick me 96. Didn't pick me one test match.

24:44Phil Tufnell: I won a selector. I got 70 wickets that year and 750 runs and didn't play test. No, you were recuperating. Yeah, yeah. You were coming back from injury. 750 runs?

24:56Darren Gough: Nearly 750, yeah. Nearly. We got 50. 121 against... You got 50 in your first test, mate, didn't you?

25:02Phil Tufnell: You got 50 in your first test. 94? Yeah. There you go.

25:04Michael Vaughan: God, that's good. We got 60 at Sydney. When I'm... No, 70 at Sydney, wasn't it? With the PS. No, I'm just going to ask when... Did you play together when you were younger? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were... My debut, Goff Chop. What about under 18s or 19s? A bit of second set. I didn't know how to play then, did I? I'd never played. My debut, you were just coming through the ranks, weren't you? I think you were a Lions or was it an A-team player then?

25:28Darren Gough: What year?

25:30Michael Vaughan: 93. It was at Old Trafford, you got six for in the second innings and won us the game. For the Yorkies? Yorkshire against Lancashire, that was my debut, yeah. Oh, in 93. 93, yeah. Could have been any, I always got my kids against Lancashire.

25:43Darren Gough: Was that Lancashire-Yorkshire? I can't remember everything, Lancashire signs. You can remember Yorkshire-Lanx, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was a massive, massive game, wasn't it? I mean, it meant a lot. It meant a lot, though.

25:55Michael Vaughan: Well, you'd be worth a few quid now on the IPL, Goff Chucks, wouldn't you?

25:58Darren Gough: I don't want to think about it.

26:00Michael Vaughan: I'd have loved to have played in it.

26:01Darren Gough: I would have, absolutely. I live for moments like that, don't you? I mean, that pressure moment, playing in those sorts of times. Where would you have batted? IPL. Well, hopefully not at top. Only did that at H6. I reckon you're batting nowadays with the amount of availability of... I'd be better. Like training. Be more consistent. I think what happened with me with my batting, if we can be honest about it, was I wasn't really into batting as a youngster and then I found a way to play, which was go back on leg stump. I preferred to play through the legs offside. I like to pull, I like to hook and I like to slog sweep.

26:38Darren Gough: They were my shots. They were all in my shots. You had good bat speed, didn't you? Yeah, I couldn't hit the ball through the leg side like a normal shot, right? Or hit to mid on. That wasn't me. I can hit power shots to the leg side, that shot and them. But it was against West Indies where I got out hucking first ball, Kirtley Ambrose, I'll never forget it. That was a headingly. And Gucci, one of the best coaches, right? But he is a little bit, he was a little bit like, you've got to do it this way. He got me going back, cross-leave, back, cross-leave, stop hucking, back, cross-leave. And in Yorkshire, Michael will tell you, we like to ride the ball.

27:13Darren Gough: We like to play it. Rooty likes to ride it, right? We don't really go down, do we? We like to ride or play. And he stopped me doing that. That were it. That were end of my batting for about four years. Didn't get a run. Totally scrambled my head. But then at the end, I started to come back. When I went to AC, and I started batting three in the one days. We did win it three years in a row. We did win it. By the way, I was batting three. You were floating in the order. Up to three, yeah. I was batting three, mainly. Every game, just about. And then I went back to Yorkshire and my batting was back to where it should be.

27:50Darren Gough: So there was a middle period of four or five years where I just didn't feel as I could get a run. Every time I went out, my head was scrambled, back, cross, leg, back, cross, leg. And it just messed my game. I mean, bare off, just go out there and play. Give it a wallet. Play with free spirit, yeah.

28:06Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. Goffey, so you've mentioned ambassador, coach in comms. A job recently came available. Yeah, it did indeed. Chairman of Selectors. You got down to the last interviews.

28:23Darren Gough: Yeah.

28:24Michael Vaughan: Obviously didn't get it. Can you tell us... Can you tell us... I thought he was in for it and he bluffed us all the way through. I didn't bluff at all. I'm not in for it.

28:37Phil Tufnell: And Stephen Finn was in for it, wasn't he? Yeah.

28:40Michael Vaughan: How does it work, the process? They ring you, you apply? Well, I need to take notes.

28:47Darren Gough: The guy recruiter rings you up and speaks to you. So I spoke to him. I went, all right. Yeah, I said it'd be something. I think, yeah, it might be something. Obviously, I didn't know the ins and outs of the role or what it was.

29:01Michael Vaughan: So he approached you? He rang me, yeah. You did approach him?

29:05Darren Gough: Yeah, I think my agent, without kind of me knowing, had put my name down and then they rang me. I was like... And that's why I think Mickey asked me if I had it. I said, well, I don't know. My agent might have done it. I've been away, haven't I? So do you just go around asking everyone? No, but I just had a call.

29:20Michael Vaughan: It's called... You've got to be a bit of a journalist every time you go. I've just said...

29:23Darren Gough: It's called communication. Yeah. But he... So I had a chat with him and then they said, oh, look, we'll have a casual chat. And then I went on the chat. Interview one. There were four people on it.

29:33Michael Vaughan: Who was on that interview, Pam? The first one would have been David Court, Keezy, the recruiter,

29:41Darren Gough: and then just the PA, I think, of Rob's who would take notes like you would expect. I've been an expert at that. I did, you know, employed 20-odd when we did the role at York. So I know how it works. So I did that. It was more of a casual shot online. Then I got a call saying, well, got an email, not to me, but to my agent saying, you got through to the final round. so I prepared a big long thing like you do

30:07Michael Vaughan: do they give you an idea of what you need to not then I'd just done it myself

30:10Darren Gough: so I'd just done it I spent three days doing it doing all of data and all the stuff like that you can look up these days all these sites that a lot of guys do it on players who are getting runs and all that stuff so I wrote it all out and then on the Friday before my interview on the Tuesday they sent me a note and said can you come in with your team prepared for the test match and the Lions I went Oh, right, so everything I'd just done, spent three days on, ripped up and started again. So I did my team, which was quite easy for me. What was your team? Because we've done our team change it a million times.

30:44Darren Gough: What was your team? Well, I've got my sheet here I wrote. Oh, hello, hello. My team is, and I think it will be... With the glasses as well, I like the glasses. Ben Duckett, Emilio Gay, Jacob Bethel 3, Joe Root 4, Harrybrook, five. Jamie Spiff, six. Ben Stokes, seven. Will Jacks, eight, if it's Lords, because at Lords, I mean, if you look at the percentages there, the wickets that fall to seamers, it's over 80%, right? So Will Jacks, if it's going to be like that, if they think it might spin, I've got Rayan. No, I had Rayan. He was my option. There you go. Yeah, yeah. Rayan Ahmed was my bowler.

31:28Darren Gough: Gutz Atkinson, eight. Josh Tong, nine. Josh Baratje, sorry, 11, and my 12th other seamer was Ollie Robinson, which were played, which was a lot of debate on Ollie Robinson and stuff, but I still think skill-wise, the bowlers I've seen in the country, his skills are right there. I think he looks in a better place than he was a couple of years ago.

31:52Michael Vaughan: When you say it was a debate with the panel.

31:54Darren Gough: Yeah, I was debating with the panel, and I stuck to my guns. That's what Chairman Select is supposed to do, isn't he? You listen and you give the reasons why you think he should play. They probably were testing me on stuff like that, but I stuck with them. I said one of the bowlers, obviously, I think the problem is Matt Fisher, I think with Surrey he's played on some ridiculously flat pitches. I mean, I feel for him in a way. I mean, Surrey I've played on. Everybody who plays Surrey now just prepares a flat, right? So when Surrey play at the oval and the flat, it's a nightmare for them at the moment.

32:27Darren Gough: I think they're going for a period where they're going to have to have a bit spicier wickets at home because they're never going to get the results.

32:32Phil Tufnell: I thought they played on 12-0.

32:35Darren Gough: He's still pretty flat. They have been flat for them. I've watched a couple of their games. The one who I do like, but he's in div two as well, is Potts. I think he's had a good start to the year. I thought the one test match he played in Australia was harsh on him playing in Sydney. That was flat. I think if he was going to play, he had to play in one of the others.

32:55Phil Tufnell: And he hadn't played prior to that.

32:56Darren Gough: He hadn't played. I thought that was it. But I like Potts. I think Potts has got some up. I think he's coming towards the end of that, but I think he's still got something. And then you've got Cookie at Essex, who's we know in county cricket takes. So that was my reasoning for that team. Ben Stokes at seven. I just think he bats better with the lower order. I think if you look at his numbers as well, they've declined. And I think, what did he average in the winter? 17, 18? And I just think Jamie Smith, it's quality player. Yeah, he got out to that a few times, didn't he, I think, in Australia.

33:29Darren Gough: But his numbers in this country stand up for it. So that was my team. I'd be interested. I think I won't be far wrong on that. Brydon Kars is injured at the minute.

33:38Phil Tufnell: Brydon's injured, yeah.

33:39Darren Gough: I like him. I think he needs to work on his technique a little bit, on his straight lines with his arms. His arms are all over the shop. That's why he's inconsistent with his lines and his lengths. But his heart, I'm absolutely a massive fan of Brydon Kars.

33:53Phil Tufnell: So, to talk about Geoff Rarcher, we were discussing earlier that he probably won't be available for that first.

33:59Michael Vaughan: If Rajas don't make the final, he won't arrive here until January 2nd, I think.

34:04Phil Tufnell: Well, there we go.

34:04Michael Vaughan: Or January, June 2nd.

34:06Phil Tufnell: Well, have you come across Mick Stanley?

34:09Darren Gough: Do you want me lions? Oh, hello. Did they, just before you go, did they say, like, what percentage say you'd get? Did you mention, like, you know, obviously Baz and Stokes, because you have very strong will. Did they mention what the actual role would have been in terms of how much say you'd have? All I got was a sheet on what was required. I asked obviously the question, what would be the first role in all? What's the most pressing thing you need to get done now? Because we're now on week five, starting this week. the selector has got one week of cricket now before they select the team? Is he going to be able to do it?

34:53Darren Gough: Well, we've seen who's been appointed I don't know if he's going to be able to watch any cricket because he's probably got a notice at Durham as well, I don't know what the story is there, but if it was a role to really engage with the counties, I think they had to go down the county route But if it's more of an England figurehead and someone who can debate their thoughts on how they can improve the team and be strong enough to speak to...

35:24Michael Vaughan: Fresh eyes.

35:25Darren Gough: Yeah, fresh eyes and bars and stuff like that. I think it has to be someone who's represented England. And what did they say? That's what I thought. What did they say? They never really answered that question. I think, I don't know if they're working out for themselves at the minute. I've no idea. I was surprised. I know Mikey was strong on it, and I totally agree. This has been four months in getting to this point.

35:48Michael Vaughan: January 8th, Luke Wright was announced that he was leaving.

35:50Darren Gough: So basically, the selector has no say inside this first test. Because they've picked these people now they've got on the county game. I think what they've done with them...

36:02Michael Vaughan: They've got four coaches that they use.

36:04Darren Gough: Four coaches who have been helping pick the team as well. Freddie does a bit in there as well. I think Freddie's involved. So, really, the first test team picks itself. I'm going to say, it sort of picks itself. Well, it doesn't, because how many people would go for Rayan? Yeah, well, yeah. I would go Rayan if they need an out-and-out spinner. At this moment in time, I'd go Rayan. So you would go instead of Crane? Absolutely. OK. Absolutely. Crane needs to do a bit more. When we're talking about...

36:33Michael Vaughan: Doesn't Rayan need to do a bit more?

36:35Darren Gough: I think Rayan has proved at international level he can do it, and I think he bowled really well at the start of the season on pitches that don't really suit him. And I think, as a cricketer, his batting is really, really strong. And I think the good thing is, my thinking is, Joe Root, I think, is someone who's, again, I think he's a better baller he gets credit for. I think he's very much similar to you. He's a wicket taker. He's better than me.

36:58Michael Vaughan: And Bessel. Bethel, good.

36:59Darren Gough: And Bessel. So that's why I've circled those two. Exactly, you've got my thing. So I put them two down as doing that job. So if Rayan came in, those two for me, and Joe Root started the season bowling pretty well.

37:10Michael Vaughan: Do you think Rayan Ahmed's a better bowler than Mason Crane?

37:12Darren Gough: I think at this moment in time, I think he holds the seat. I think Mason Crane is someone alongside, obviously, Calvin Harrison as well, who are pushing. But I think Mason Crane has started the season OK, but he's gone through an hard time. He's got a new county, and I think if he puts in consistent performances, it's going to be good but we've got now a conditionally planned when obviously Rashid I know he's playing one day as mainly now but we've seen I mean how he keeps going I don't know but he's still the best right but you've got to have those guys all lining up and then the best one gets picked right you've got Souta as well who plays in the T20s

37:52Phil Tufnell: See if we were selectors here and listening to he's the chairman of selectors just at the minute I reckon that we'd say I'm having Crane instead of Rian.

38:04Michael Vaughan: I just want the best spinner. I've had enough of, you know, picking someone I can bat at eight. I want the best spinners. I haven't seen enough of them. That's my line.

38:18Darren Gough: A lot of people wonder, I watch a lot of cricket online and I watch it on the app. I sit around, I play golf and I watch a bit of cricket, right? I've got that time at the moment. So my roles, my ambassador roles, I'm doing Summit next week at Goodwuff. which is for the dogs which is awesome Goodwuff? Yeah Goodwuff What's Goodwuff? It's like Goodwood for dogs So I'll be doing a little bit with the greyhounds there because I love greyhounds as well so a bit of a charity stuff there as well take my dog down in the spring I let him jump in the water and swim I watch a lot of cricket

38:52Michael Vaughan: Yeah you're a good watcher

38:54Darren Gough: So then they asked me about some of the players on the way they've shaped up and a couple of players who have lost their places in there, so I had all that. Just going back to your dog, do you ever take it to the dog run at Stukeley? The what? The dog run where you can let the dog off. I let the dog off all the time. Go to the dog run. But you should know, you've got springers. Have you got springers? Collies. Collies. But then I picked my Lions squad, which I went down, I'll just go for it quickly. I went Haynes, McKinney, Tribe, Cox, Rue, Rahan, if he wasn't obviously in the test, Thomas Rue, George Hill, Sonny Baker, Eddie Jack, Matt Fisher, James Coles, Dan Moseley Jack Carson Mitchell Stanley Then I put Just quick I'm going to go through these Additional players to watch Pennington Archie Vaughan Casey Aldridge Matthew Revis Asib Hamid Needs to do more And the reason I didn't go for Hamid By the way Sibley Sibley's strike rate is still at 36 And I still I'm still a player who likes To put pressure on the bowlers I know what it's like as a bowler And I don't think At the minute Sibley has still not changed at a 36 strike rate.

40:01Darren Gough: Habib's got slightly better. I think he's at 45 now. You look at someone like Gay's at 55, and then you've got McKinney, who I think has got a high ceiling, by the way. He's at 64. But again, when we're talking about players who have to do more in the county game, I think McKinney still needs to do more. I'm sick of these players just getting thrown in with nothing. They've still got potential. They can't keep doing that. And then I went, future talents, Ben Dawkins, Manny Lumsden, Ben Mez, Lettigan from Worcester, not available to 2028, by the way. Harry Moore, who we know his injuries at Derbyshire.

40:36Darren Gough: My year at Kent, I like him, he needs to improve against spin. And Faham Ahmed. I don't think he's going to play at Notts this year, so I'd be worried about him straight away. He's got to go somewhere and play.

40:47Michael Vaughan: He'll play white ball cricket, won't he?

40:48Darren Gough: Yeah.

40:49Michael Vaughan: Faham Ahmed.

40:49Darren Gough: He might not for Notts, though.

40:52Michael Vaughan: So you've delivered your teams. Yeah. So they then probe you about your teams. Yeah. So that's... And then what happens? What's the next stage of what happened in that? Glass of wine.

41:06Darren Gough: I was pretty pleased and then went home. And then obviously, like I said, the leaks come out. You see all the papers go down one route or whatever.

41:16Michael Vaughan: So was that the first time you heard about it when it was in the papers?

41:19Darren Gough: Well, first week was the Finn one. That came out in the paper. And no disrespect, I think Finn is a very intelligent man. But I think for this role, I don't think he should have even got an interview. That's my personal thought. No management skills, no coaching skills. And this is a big role. It's bigger than when Luke Wright took over. This is not a role like, it's just, you know what I mean, there you go. This is a hard role. Because there's a lawyer repair job to be done. And we're talking about a role where they're saying they're trying to bring England cricket and county cricket closer together.

41:52Darren Gough: I don't think they are because they've gone, they've decided to go, we've got a Kiwi coach, whatever it is, and we've now got an Australian chairman of selectors. I don't think that's brought the game closer to the county game at all. And I do think there's a big, big repair job there. But having said that, I don't think he should have had any, should have been nowhere near an interview for that job. Nowhere near. Might not be in four years. If he gets a bit more experience, I think he's somebody who could easily in four years' time do that role. Absolutely no problem with him. He'd be a great lad.

42:25Darren Gough: But for this, it should have been people who had got experience in those areas and that field.

42:30Phil Tufnell: When you looked at future players, did you go back to England under-19s and look at who was around at that time? Yeah, I watched the United Nations World Cup. And one thing I've done...

42:41Darren Gough: Joe Moores? Mayers, from Hampshire. Lanks? Yeah, look, absolutely. He's down on my list down here, mate. So he's another good young player. But that under-19 World Cup, let me just feel... So when I worked with the under-19s a few years ago, I remember it was against India, and it was a white ball series. And England, I promise you, were two years behind that Indian under-19. It was unbelievable to watch. I was gobsmacked. Tried to do some work with the bowlers on reverse swing. They'd never even had any practice doing it. I know it's improved since then. This was about five, six years ago. And then I watched the World Cup this year, and I watched England versus Australia and for the first time, England, I thought, well, we're head against, we're head of Australia.

43:27Darren Gough: That's my personal thought and I thought, At under 19 level.

43:31Phil Tufnell: Yeah, that man in Lumsden, have you seen him bowl?

43:34Darren Gough: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Got a good slower ball, good Yorker, can reverse it, got a good pace. If he keeps improving, my worry is, how are these players, my biggest worry, with a county game as it is and we still know they are a bit stubborn, and the coaches want to keep their jobs, right? Because that's what it's like. They want jobs for life. I always believe there's always a four-year cycle in anything. I believe for Coach of England, it's a four-year cycle. Chairman of Selectors for me is a four-year cycle. Obviously, it's different. If you go to Australia and win, you're pushed on to stay.

44:07Darren Gough: But I believe these roles are four-year cycles. That's my personal opinion. And then you freshen up again, freshen up, freshen up.

44:15Michael Vaughan: So you must think that Baz McCollum is very lucky then to carry on.

44:19Darren Gough: I think so realistically I think it comes down to those roles in any roles you get four year cycle and if you go there and get absolutely battered we were luckily not to get beat 5-0 there was moments though in the series that did excite me and look and I like this aggressive round of cricket but as I said to you my chosen style is to play suck it up now and again you have to sit in and I think if England on a few occasions this winter would have sat in, I think we'd have had a close series. And we just didn't know how to do it because the mentality's all been about, this is the way we are.

44:57Phil Tufnell: There's no consequence, which there will be a consequence now.

44:59Darren Gough: There you go. Loyalty, my big words, three words. Loyalty without consequence all winter.

45:07Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair. This role, this new chair of selectors, Is it right to think that this chair will have a bit more power than Luke Wright had? Or is it going to be the same?

45:22Darren Gough: Well, I'd like to think so, but I don't know. The reason I didn't get it was it was a safer option. What do you mean?

45:31Michael Vaughan: So how did that work? So you get a phone call then?

45:34Darren Gough: Yeah, for Rob. So I spoke to Rob.

45:35Michael Vaughan: All right.

45:40Darren Gough: Well, I'd already known by then. I think everybody in England knew by then. so I was a bit disappointed it took so long. I mean, I told him. I told him so. Nicely. Not like I would have done 20 years ago.

45:56Darren Gough: And he just said, look, we're English cricketers at the minute. We went for a safer option. I said, what do you mean safer? I said, he's Australian. I said, that's not a safer option, is it? And then he said, and he didn't think I'd enjoy the role.

46:12Michael Vaughan: He said, well...

46:13Darren Gough: So someone telling me I wouldn't enjoy the role, which I didn't agree with either, because I wouldn't have gone for that role if I didn't think. And no matter what anybody says about me, I love the sport. I love the sport, right? I had time out of it, but I love the sport. And I'm a lot more into data and a lot more into writing. I write a lot and look at cricket and I watch a lot of cricket. So I don't know whether they think my persona is someone who doesn't really... Yeah, but I do. I do a lot of... I don't understand the safer option.

46:50Michael Vaughan: What does safer option mean?

46:52Darren Gough: Well, I don't know. I think it's because he's still probably... He's a DOC at Durham. But I would say as DOC at Durham, he doesn't probably watch as much cricket as he probably should. Or he's saying, obviously, you're opinionated, aren't you? We've just seen your very opinionated. Of course I'm opinionated. And the safer option is... I would say so. I think that's what we're trying to say without saying.

47:14Phil Tufnell: If you just strip all this back, are we making too much importance about that role? Because the England team right now will select itself except for two people. So that chairman of selectors has got to be strong enough to say to the coach and the captain, look, this is my view, take this on board. The more interesting and exciting job, who's going to be playing for England in five years' time? Who are the kids coming through that we are going to identify and they will come through with a wet sail? Some will fall off, won't they? Some will go by the wayside. But we need to know, or they need to know privately, who's going to play for England in five years' time.

47:55Darren Gough: All right, agree totally. All right, so we've got some... I actually disagree a little bit. But how are they going to get game time? Let's talk, identifying that talent, I totally agree with it. He disagreed. We'll come back to you. How are they going to play? Against their county side. Right. But as I said, I think the game still is about guys who want to keep their jobs for long, long periods of time and they will still go down. I better go for him because that's the safe pick. To pick a 17-year-old who we all know from that under-19s World Cup there were three or four players who should be in their county side now.

48:32Darren Gough: Who's that? Who are they? who should definitely Mayers who's playing Dawkins is playing yeah playing not all the time

48:38Michael Vaughan: they're not playing all the time Kaleem Fulton has just made his debut for Milosek Thomas Roo made his debut didn't he he's done his debut

48:44Darren Gough: but they've got to be in they've got to be in they've got to be in and getting good I'm not saying every game but the only thing I'll say about that

48:52Michael Vaughan: the one problem with kids that you throw in in our day you'd play loads of second team cricket and it was a little bit better than second team cricket now there's not enough second team cricket for these lads to just you know it's like you need a small bank of experience that you know you've done it and at the minute a lot of these kids are getting they haven't so they have two or three iffy games in the first team where there's a bit of exposure particularly on digital now they've not got that bit of experience and this is my point Mike Bashir had nothing to fall back on he did alright and now he's playing for Derbyshire bowling lots of overs and lots of better bowlers

49:30Darren Gough: I watched him versus Glossier I was at Derby, first lost, I believe it or not. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So I went to that game and I watched him ball. He actually ball well. Ball well, tall, lovely. He needs to stay there for it. He does. He's always saying, but Vornie's point about the second. So, you know, there was a bit of talk the other day about how bad counting cricket is compared to 20 years ago. I mean, I fundamentally disagree on that as well. I think, like, standard. I disagree as well. But the second team thing is a real issue because the second team, not even when I started, when you guys started, was...

50:00The squads were 30. I saw a Yorkshire picture, I think. About that long. You had a 30. And you had your second overseas playing in the second.

50:11Phil Tufnell: They played cricket. They killed me. And now, because of the financial things, the squads are 17, 18. Essex, I think, have got 20 players. So the second team cricket, take two out of injured. They're going to Kent and saying, can we play double, half Kent, half, just to keep the standard a bit higher. but in general the standard of the county cricket...

50:31Michael Vaughan: Did it change when the rule came in that to be a first-year contracted player you had to be on X? Yes. It was quite a big number really for me. 28 ,000. Whereas back in our day... But you knew you were going to play a bit of cricket and it wasn't going to cost the counties too much. And you had a bit of X's. Good old X's. You get the old little brown envelope, didn't you?

50:48Phil Tufnell: Can I come back to younger players and getting back to when you guys were late 90s? We played two players direct from the under-19s and Alex Stewart, a great lad, superb lad, all for it. None of the players, none of the team said, hang on, what's he doing? Ben Ollyhoek and Andrew Flintoff played straight from the under-19s into the test team. Is it too early? No, it's not too early. And I think you can put a young player into a county side at number six, you can play him there. He's managing it, isn't he, Bumble?

51:26Darren Gough: Go on, you were going to say something. One of your Lancashire players, right, who's played in England, eh? Famous dad. We know him, right? Flintoff, Rocky. What's happening with him at the moment is he just basically, his career was like, I thought, wow, where he's going, he's going to be knocking on the door. He's kind of just gone and stood still again now because he's not playing any decent cricket. He's not. And we've got to get him playing decent cricket. Now, one of my ideas would be, I don't know what you think, is, but, all right, if these guys, rather than play second-team cricket, we've got to somehow, don't know how, got to get them standard of cricket that's better than second-team.

52:07Darren Gough: So whether that's then producing what we think's our next best generation players, playing against a Lions team in their own series. So we're getting pushed. The only way you improve is by playing against better players. Absolutely. I quite like that regional second team player. North and South. You could almost... Well, it could be like five or six. And actually go... South and South-East. Whoever. And actually go right. South and South-East. You have to make it under 21. So you might have a 27-year-old batter who's next in line at Essex, not playing. He should be playing that to keep the standard and experience.

52:47Michael Vaughan: Is it so far-fetched, that England should have a Lions team that they could bring through in the second division of the county championship.

52:55Darren Gough: Absolutely, that's my thoughts. So then all these... You're taking players away from county.

53:02Michael Vaughan: They loan them anyway. They might as well play. When I played, as you say, it was always that next level. You know what I mean? And you improve. Yeah, absolutely. You know what I mean? Can you, you know, under 13s, under 15s, right, get a second 11 contract, play in that second 11. Can you dominate that second XI? You get the chance in the first team. Can you dominate first team? So you have second team cricket at the beginning of the season, and then you have a month, maybe in September or something, maybe July, I don't know, a month where you have a regional second teams, where you put 30 players in the pot.

53:43You're talking about people giving them time. I don't know the Rocky Flintoff story, why he's not playing, But, you know, if you're talking, the Lancashire people say, well, he's not as good as the person who's batting number five at the minute for Lancashire. And he has to earn the right to do it.

53:56Darren Gough: So he needs to be pushed and needs to be playing better standards. And that's not his fault. That's the sister's fault. If he's good enough, he would play.

54:05Phil Tufnell: This is a debate. So it's my county. This is no more than a debate on a podcast. And he just said it's reasoned that Rocky Flintoff is not as good as the number five at the minute. That's a debate. Now the bloke who makes the decision is the guy who picks that team, who makes that decision. Now, Rocky Flintoff and Joe Moores are gun players at a young age.

54:32Michael Vaughan: Now you've got to push a young player, you have to push him. Otherwise he stagnates. Harry Sings has got 200 in the seconds for length. Keshe von Sekes has got 187 for length. Does the head coach, as Goffey was saying, look after himself because he wants to keep having his job, or does he take a little bump for the best of English cricket? I believe he's a very good man.

54:54Phil Tufnell: You know what I'm just saying? He's a good man. Stephen Croft is a good man.

54:57Darren Gough: For the members? Good coach as well.

55:00Phil Tufnell: And alongside Jimmy Anderson. Now, they'll make a decision. Now, if I'm a selector, my philosopher, I'd be into them, and the word I would use is challenge. Now, are you sure that you're absolutely right in that position against this young player because we've got to look to the future. That's another debate. I like the word debate. We're doing a podcast here and we're chatting about our game. You can always look to the future. There's a balance there, isn't there? You know, everything's the future.

55:31Michael Vaughan: When do you then sort of just get a settled sign? You would say it. You know what I'm saying? You'd say it. Well, I've had a look to the future, but then sometimes you've just got to go out and pick your best sign and go and win that game. We're not on Lancashire Watch, but we'll talk about Lancashire now. We are every week. We are every week, but they're in the second division with this group of players now. If they don't get up this year, then I would have been saying, if I was part of the board, we've given it this way, now let's pick our youngsters because we can't go, we haven't got in the first division with the older players.

56:02I'm not saying they are playing just older players, but then you go, right, well, we keep doing that. Look at, I don't know, Morgan, how they've changed their, you know, last couple of years they've been in second division, now they're first division.

56:13Michael Vaughan: Most lone signings are bowlers. there's not many counties take a young batter from another county as a lone player. It's generally a spin option or a quick bowling option gets the loans. So my message to all young kids, make sure you bowl as well. Make sure you're not just a batter.

56:29Darren Gough: I think we all agree, though, they've got to be pushed. These young players at the minute, they're going and playing in a World Cup. They're impressed us all. We'll watch that under-19 World Cup. And we've got some very good, young, talented players. They're going back to the counties. It doesn't matter whose fault it is. We've got to find a way to push young players, like push them and get them playing against better players so we can test them. Rather than say, oh, we like him, so let's just throw him in test team. That's too much, you know. I can go through my career and say at the start, it took me four years to become the baller I did.

57:06Darren Gough: I think I averaged, I might have wrote it down here, my first year was something stupid. It was 36 year one in 1990. I was debut 89. 1990, 36. 91, 41. 92, 36. 93, I was 34. And then I got dropped. Then I came back in because Paul Jarvis got injured. And I was on my way to North Ants then in 93. I was going to sign for North Ants because I was just getting disheartened by not playing. I was playing in all the flat pictures, resting jar, playing. So I never played home games. And then I came back in in 93 and I got another 34 wickets at 20 and I got picked for England A.

57:48Phil Tufnell: Wasn't that Richie Rich? That was where you got six on my debut. Somebody saying you're a medium pace, so why don't you try and bowl fast? Yeah. Who was that? Richie Rich, my driver. Absolutely the day against Hampshire.

58:00Darren Gough: Came up to me at slip, Malcolm Marshall were there, who was small like me, and he said to me, I bowled all right, decent pace that day, and he said, look, you can do this and you can do it every single day. and Sean Udall walked in, poor Sean Udall, and he said to me, I know he's your mate. He said, first ball, knock his head off. I went, what? He said, I want you to bowl as fast as you can. I got three for. He said, bowl as fast as you can this next over. So I come in, first ball, Sean Udall, straight on Swede. Next ball, got him out. In come ADM's, I think it was.

58:31Phil Tufnell: Yeah, ADM's.

58:32Darren Gough: Got him out as well, got five for. And that was the turning point. I remember that. I spoke to Malcolm Marshall after that game and Richie said to me, See, when you ball like that, you've got a big, strong backside. You put five miles an hour, which you've done today, and do that every day, you'll be playing for England in no time. And then the rest of that year, I've got seven for against Somerset at Taunton. I've got six, I think, against Lanks. And then I've got picked for England there.

58:56Michael Vaughan: Yeah, but you had to have... I've got the background. I've got the game. There you go. You've got that rhythm. You've got that action. And then you could go for it. And you can't just come in and just go, blast. You had to have that strong work behind you.

59:08Darren Gough: I had a natural, I was lucky with my head,

59:10Phil Tufnell: a nice, strong action. Yeah, but he got strong and all. Yeah. And so going back to Richie Richardson, you can bowl quick. I've been sat this week watching that Middlesex game with Clive Lloyd. Don't get any better than that. And Clive's just watching. He said, who's that? I said, Mitchell Stanley. He gave me head just to Mitch Stanley. And he just said, I pick him. Mitchell Stanley big and he's rapping this bloke he's quick

59:41Darren Gough: he's got pace but has he got

59:42Michael Vaughan: nothing behind him though

59:46Darren Gough: look at

59:47Michael Vaughan: Sonny Baker look at how Sonny Baker came in just let him play the season maybe pick him for the Lions just have a look

59:56Darren Gough: I'd have him in the Lions and look the first time I saw Sonny Baker was playing for Hampshire against Lahore Calanders in that Guyana competition and I've got the message here I text Keezy I watched four balls I said this is a guy who's going to play for England in the next two years Sonny Baker my exact text to Rob Key two years later played played in one days but the one thing he's got to again he's got to still keep playing and he's started well this year he got five for a didn't he I don't know who that were against not against who was that against He got five, but I'm sure they're not doing well this year.

1:00:38Darren Gough: But he got the wickets. But he's got pace. Ballers like that, but we have to be testing these guys. Can you imagine these young players you talked about on the Lions? I want to see those guys, I want to see them facing Sonny Baker. If they're 19 and good enough, they can face ballers that speed. Forney, when he goes up to test level, you could look at his record when he got picked for England and think, oh, they're better players than him. Played for England, what did he do? Rise to it, right? Because he's got the game time. Loads of them. Trez. Yeah. Vorney. Cookie. But when I first played against Cookie, bowled against Cookie, Gucci said to me, make sure you let this little, don't let it have it.

1:01:15Darren Gough: He said he's got so much talent, but let him have it. And I bowled him at nets. I said, take back off. I was 34 and I bowled him for what? 40 minutes? Oh, that's a long time. 40 minutes. I tell you what, I was knackered after. He stood up. I came out and he said, what do you think? I went, decent. Fucking decent. You were 34. I was 34 then. I was 34. I remember when Goffey signed. It was brilliant.

1:01:40Michael Vaughan: And that one leg. Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair.

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1:02:26Michael Vaughan: When you get that call from Rob Key saying this job's not for you, how did that make you feel?

1:02:33Darren Gough: I was disarmed I'll be honest with you it's it hurt me purely the fact but I think I could have like I said I'm into all that I'm into cricket more than people give me credit for I do love the game I miss it on a daily basis but and I think I could have challenged in the right areas without being I'm mature now I say I'm not like I was hothead 10 years ago which people know me in the game that I probably was. But I've mellowed a lot. I've managed people, you know. I've done some big roles. And I thought I would... I literally thought... My honest opinion was, if they went down for somebody who played for England, who's done all the roles in the game, I thought, I might just get this.

1:03:25Darren Gough: But I thought, my honest opinion, if they go for somebody from the county game, who I knew had applied, who they wanted to just keep the counties happier, I thought they'd have... Mick Newell. That's who I thought they might have gone for. Something like that. So it depended on what they wanted and what they wanted from the role. So I thought between me and probably him. Would you go back into, like, director of another county? Depends where he is. I won't go and move up too far away from him. But if the right role was there, of course, I love the game, Cookie. I absolutely adore the game. What passion is.

1:03:59Darren Gough: And I've got a lot to offer. but it's waiting for it. It's not something... I'm not desperate for work. You know what I mean? I'm quite happy doing what I'm doing, but I love the game. Same as Bumble wants to get back. He loves the game. Once you love it, you want to be involved in it.

1:04:14Michael Vaughan: We're not great in this country of talking our own up. In Australia, they're all coaching everywhere. They talk them up. How many of them are brilliant coaches? Let's be honest. They do talk them up. They talk them up. You know, here, we've got one coach in the 100, which is Peter Moore's. The rest of them.

1:04:35Darren Gough: Well, we know that's going to happen now and that's changed. But my views when the 100 first came out, I think you might have heard it. I think we were on an interview and I said, I believe when it first came out, the 100, every head coach should have been English. English tournament should have been English. At the start, it should have been. But the problem now, it's never going to happen now. We know now it's been taken over now by India. let's be straight about it and we're not going to see that again and they're all going down like players eventually are going to be contracted to one the coaches now like Vittorio is the Sunrisers at the minute is the Sunrisers coach right so he's going to be want to be they want to be DLCs of that now so they're doing three or four tournaments a year and it's not a bad gig is it no it's a good gig it's a good gig it's a good gig good gig

1:05:24Phil Tufnell: you work 20 weeks a year do you want to do you want to funny one about him go on Yeah, go on. Well, I've got a few. England versus Australia A in Hobart, late 90s. Chilly. Stewie's having a rest. Nasser as vice-captain's having a rest. In our wisdom, we put others as captain. All their bowlers fell down, all the lot of them. They had a selector at the game who had to put whites on and field, Alan Borda. I'm sat there because all the press is that our A team will beat your lot and I'm just sat there. I keep them out there and just get as many. Alex gets 199, refuses to lift his bat because the bowling wasn't good enough.

1:06:12Phil Tufnell: He declares and puts them back in. They knocked them off by tea time. I've gone... Greg blew it. Yeah. Greg blew it. Gone naughty first inning. I've gone absolutely apeshit in the changing room at all. I went, what the fuck are we doing? He walks in, not playing in the game, dressed as Father Christmas. With a sack on his back. And I'm ripping into it. Ho, ho, what the fuck are you doing?

1:06:46Darren Gough: Father Christmas. I'll tell you what I've done. I sat Gus on my knee, if you remember. I said to him I've rushed out to bring your bowling figures over I tried to cheer the lads up you know because Bumble said this cricket team this cricket team has got a drinking problem I said no this drinking team Bumble's got a cricket problem that's where you got it wrong

1:07:12Michael Vaughan: Stick to Cricket is brought to you by Betfair Garfield we finished with a few community questions oh no what's the best thing you've done since retiring from cricket

1:07:27Darren Gough: it's got to be strictly on it strictly I would say yeah strictly

1:07:32Michael Vaughan: this might I've got a question for him and all go on then from David

1:07:35Phil Tufnell: from David from David which wicket in Test Match cricket has given you more satisfaction Colin Miller

1:07:45Darren Gough: first one first one against Australia not first one but first one against Australia Booney alright nipped back left it because growing up do you know when I played cricket I used to no matter what game it was I'd look at the opposition it might be somewhere where they walked out strutted out a laugh I didn't like or somewhere I used to say in my head I'm having him right and that day it was Boone growing up I was like can't believe watching him on TV I'm playing against him and he nipped back he left it and it knocked his off Paul out I'll never forget that so that's that meant more to me than David

1:08:18Michael Vaughan: Dave in at Ackerton, or is it York these days? York. What do you miss most about playing cricket?

1:08:26Darren Gough: Dressing room, absolutely. Every dressing room I played in was quality. It's the heartbeat. It's where, it's just, you just can't beat it. You have so many different characters in there. You get some who sit there and don't say out. You get some who are loud. You get some who are asleep all day.

1:08:45Michael Vaughan: You mean pissed all day or asleep all day?

1:08:47Darren Gough: Yeah, well, recovering from the night before.

1:08:50Michael Vaughan: Come on, come on.

1:08:51Darren Gough: In our day, probably half the team were recovering. That's a problem.

1:08:57Michael Vaughan: What did you say? It was bad for your health playing cricket in the 80s and 90s?

1:09:00Darren Gough: I did, I said it was bad for your health playing cricket in the 80s and 90s. It changed mid-90s, which you didn't react well to, did you? I remember doing a triathlon in La Manga. Not La Manga, where was that? No, that was me, that.

1:09:15Phil Tufnell: He got lapped. He got lapped by Dougie Brown. No, he was cycling. He was cycling. And Dougie ran past him. No, no, he was cycling and Dougie Brown lapped. He slapped him.

1:09:25Darren Gough: I promise you, mate, he was smoking a fag on his bike and Dougie Brown ran past him.

1:09:31Phil Tufnell: A triathlon. I took him out there. And so for the bicycle bit, I said, take the saddles off. And Stuart went mad. This is a death trap, Stuart said. Finish up in bushes in a swimming pool. Take the saddle off. he can't sit down

1:09:48Darren Gough: the trouble is

1:09:48Phil Tufnell: there was a nightclub

1:09:49Michael Vaughan: there wasn't it

1:09:50Darren Gough: what a great place to take us

1:09:51Michael Vaughan: weren't it there was a nightclub with all the athletes I remember it I'll leave it there bad decision leave it there we took everybody

1:10:01Phil Tufnell: didn't we under no the A team was that was Gat there no no no no brilliant

1:10:08Michael Vaughan: there we go which was no aerobics well you got us doing aerobics or something water aerobics six in the morning Aerobics at six in the morning.

1:10:17Phil Tufnell: Aerobics at six in the morning. Swimming, all that business. You were good at the swimming.

1:10:22Michael Vaughan: It was all right.

1:10:22Phil Tufnell: You were very good at the swimming with Dougie Brown.

1:10:25Michael Vaughan: Yeah. Here you go, Goff Jobs. If a football management group had acted how Brendan McCullum and Ben Stokes had done in the winter, i.e. poor performances, how would callers respond on a talk sport phoning? Oh.

1:10:42Darren Gough: The Daily England. Call in 08717-22-224. They are England, all that. No, they are shit. That's what they would have done. It would have been an hour. It would have been slaughtering them. We know what it's like. Look, when you're at the top level, if you're not winning games, your job's going to come under scrutiny. And as I said, I think it's a four-year cycle. Those high jobs in those positions, I honestly believe that. Obviously, if you go to Australia, on the fourth year of it, and you win, or it got really, really close, she can say, look, there's been a big change. Let's give it another couple of years.

1:11:17Darren Gough: Let's see how they go. But it didn't happen. So I wish them the best of luck. I like the way they play, but it just needs toning down a little bit now. We need that little bit of steel. And I'd like to think we're going to see that this summer. Because New Zealand, by the way. Yeah, decent. Good side. That is a good side they've got.

1:11:38Michael Vaughan: Can you change? Do you know what I mean? We'll find out soon. No, well, there you go.

1:11:43Darren Gough: Not if you keep picking the same type of player.

1:11:45Michael Vaughan: No, no, no, no. No, no, that's what I mean. But I mean your philosophy and everything, you know what I mean? As a coach, this is the way we're going to do it, and I believe in this and I've got to stick with this. Well, you've then been said that...

1:11:57Darren Gough: You're not going to change Harry Brook because he's full in. He's the one out of that team who's full in.

1:12:03Michael Vaughan: Can you change, Brendan? Can you change Stokes? Can they change? Should Baz McCullough have been here earlier this summer?

1:12:11Darren Gough: Realistically, yeah, honestly. I think, let's be straight about it, we want England to do well. Yes, his workload's been a lot, doing the one days as well as the testing. He's been away a lot. But the job is, you're the coach of England. I'm going to say, it's your job. You have to watch county cricket. Do I think he's there in Australia watching online like we do on the England app? Probably not. so that's why I think now the chairman of selectors is going to be a bigger role than it should be but you've already got people on there you've got Fred on there doing his bit because he's the Lions coach they've got their scouts I don't know who their scouts are even but yeah I mean as England coach if this was the other way around and I was coach of Australia and it never happened by the way but if I was coach of Australia can you imagine if I was still sat here and I'm rocking over probably a week before the first game it just wouldn't happen Vaughn he could tell us he works in Australia

1:13:14Michael Vaughan: he'll tell you it wouldn't happen you're right it wouldn't happen go off realistically do you think this job was the last chance you had of getting back involved in English cricket

1:13:22Darren Gough: at the top end let's see I'll tell you in six months right because all depends what happens doesn't it against New Zealand I think it's a good series I think it's going to be closer than we think I think New Zealand got a good strong time batting and bowling I think they're good.

1:13:36Phil Tufnell: Good job.

1:13:37Darren Gough: Yeah, and I think India in the one day, we've got two big series coming up.

1:13:42Michael Vaughan: Do you still think things could change this summer if it weren't?

1:13:44Darren Gough: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I think they're under pressure and they should be. I don't think there's any doubt about that. They should be under pressure. But roles I'd be interested in, I'm not so sure head coach is my role within England. Franchise cricket, yeah, but I think we need an...

1:14:04Michael Vaughan: What about the bowling coach role?

1:14:05Darren Gough: I got asked to do that a few years ago but it wasn't right timing for me then it wasn't but yeah look that would be something the future of working with England's bowlers a lot of the younger guys would be something that would interest me massively Lions sort of stuff for under 19s that sort of area working with the counties I love county cricket am I one of the last few I don't know I love county cricket yeah I think there's areas that needs to be stronger but I love playing it I love playing it I wouldn't have played in 2007 and 8 if I didn't love it and gone back to Yorkshire I wouldn't have gone to Essex where my leg were hanging off if I didn't love it I wouldn't have gone to Germany every Monday to get the knee drained and to play I loved it that's why I play it

1:14:54Phil Tufnell: I think them roles are far more important than chairman of selectors to get something like him with the about reverse swing with the younger bowlers. Just with the young kids coming through in five, seven years' time are going to be playing.

1:15:09Darren Gough: And it's the mentality as well. I think a lot's got to be played on. You need a strong mentality to be a fast bowler. Because, especially now, with social media, I mean, we luckily didn't have it in our day, but now, one of the strongest things, Trace, you have to have is that temperament. To go into a team now and you have one bad game, it's all over. And I've said this on TalkSport, I don't believe an elite athlete should be on social media because you're going to look at it unless you turn off all the comments. Because when you look at it, it's got to be disheartening when you have a bad day.

1:15:47Darren Gough: But I would look at the way I dealt with it. I had feelings the same as anyone else. I want as secure as people make out. When I was going through my issues at the end with my knee and that, and I thought I'm just not the bowler I was anymore. Once you get those self-doubts, it affects your performance full stop.

1:16:02Phil Tufnell: Well, time marches on. Of course you're not the bowler that you were, but what you can give to the game now with all your expertise and experience to the younger end, it's who you want to be playing for England in five, ten years' time. That's the area.

1:16:18Darren Gough: And that's where I believe in it. It's protecting the future. That's why I think it's a big role. I think it's not just about connecting the county, getting that trust back to the counties in England. I think that's a big part of this role. It's a huge, huge part. But the main part should always be on having a say on contracts, having a say on the team, having a say on the Lions, having some kind of say in what's going to happen to these talented under-19s players. We don't want them to go back to their counties and not play some cricket. So we've got to find a way of them playing a better standard of cricket, whether it's Cookie's idea of going and playing regional.

1:17:00Darren Gough: Well, my idea is... Oh, what's your idea? I did it. He keep making your idea. I just backed it up.

1:17:07Michael Vaughan: It's because he's 90, that's what happened.

1:17:09Darren Gough: Because all the game time these guys are going to get is when the 100's on, and that's playing in... That's all right. That's all right. That's all right for the development of... They aren't something on top of that. For the Red Bull stuff. Yeah, against better players. But you can't fit it in in the first month of the season. But you definitely fit it in at some stage.

1:17:25Phil Tufnell: County coaches have to play ball also because one of their responsibilities is providing cricketers for England. They are. They are doing it. It's just that balance. I mean, I will always be indebted to Gucci because Gucci is your mindset. He always back youngsters, isn't he? Always. If there's ever a 50-50 or a 70-30, he'd always back youngsters. And I was part of that. The fact that they could have chosen a couple of other openers. Lager. He was a little bit older than me, but there is that philosophy.

1:17:55Darren Gough: And Steve Oldham did it with me at Yorkshire. He said, get him in. He should be playing. But he was right. In fact, they asked him to play on my debut, 89. Do you know they asked Steve Oldham in 89 to play? Instead of you? Yeah, because I wasn't contracted. I was literally come out of nowhere, didn't I? I played in that game. Do you know when I met my debut, I'd never seen a first-class cricket match live. I'd never been to watch one live. Never seen one. I'd seen a test match on TV, and when I made my debut, 89, never been to a first-class cricket match live.

1:18:27Phil Tufnell: Well, I didn't either. But I were only with Steve. Never seen one.

1:18:30Darren Gough: I've still been to my debut.

1:18:32Michael Vaughan: No, no, it's for the twos. All right, yeah. Goffey, brilliant. Brilliant. Thanks so much. Very, very good. That's been great. Brilliant. Thanks, how's that? Thank you.

1:19:03We'll be right back.

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1:19:38ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. I'm Alexandra Fairweather, raised by one of the world's great creative geniuses, John Chamberlain, on his famous foam couches. Now I'm on the couch again with today's boldest creative minds for conversations that will spark your creativity and give you the courage to create something new. On the Couch launches May 19th with John Gray of Ghetto Gastro, whose food will make you rethink who belongs at the table. Season 1, Daniel Arsham, Alexander Wang, Annabelle Seldorf and more. Subscribe wherever you stream and follow along at John Chamberlain Estate.

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