Wasim Akram: India v Pakistan Test Hopes & Playing Under Bumble | Stick to Cricket Ep 9

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2:46I'm sitting there. You see the end, Wes. I've had a table, buddy. Got some popcorn? Right. Sweets? Sweets, popcorn. Now I'm having sweets. Here we go. Phil. Yeah? How are you? I'm good. Everyone good? Right, Dave?

2:59Phil Tufnell: Good. Have you found your jumper? No, not yet. Does it look like that? That is mine. He's got me jumper on. He's got it. You were right. I just looked at it. I was like, oh, all right. Yeah, you thought that was nice. I thought it was nice. It fits me all right. Yeah, actually. It's all right. That's fine, Sir Alistair. I didn't realise it was hung up beautifully. Sorry, toughers. I don't know, I've just got me... Feeling blue. Feeling blue. Yeah, it looks all right. You like it, don't you? Looks smart, though. I know. I didn't realise I was like... Ooh, that's nice. The other sides are extra large.

3:32It's a bit too bad. It's quietly fruit pastels. I reckon they're up there with the greatest sweets. We had some last week. That's really nice. Bad for you. Fruit?

3:40Phil Tufnell: No, no, all right. Not one of them. Bad for you, Chief. Angry? Nice shirt, Dave. Yeah. Well, I thought you got final 96 to 8 United, yeah? That's the original ticket. Extra time. Original ticket. Signed by Bobby Charlton. Scorers. Go on. Bobby with a couple, yeah? Georgie Best, Brian Kidd. Nice. Brian Kidd. Collier slab. It was 1-0 when it went to extra time? I can't remember. It was Johnny Aston's game. Who? Johnny Aston. Johnny Aston, left winger. He had an absolute worldie of a game. Look it up. Bumble, tell me about Farouk and Jeannie's interview that Pele stayed at his home. Yeah, he was in the Telegraph.

4:24Aye?

4:25Phil Tufnell: In the Telegraph in Israel. I was playing golf down in the Midlands and I was the guest of honour and I was playing alongside the footballer Pele who mentioned that the following day he was playing at Mia. Well, I live on Mia, so I said, well I'll take you up there and he stayed at my house he stayed in that room there and I went to when I was in Adelaide playing for India Don Bradman was a great admirer of mine and he invited me round to his house for dinner but I was taking Miss Adelaide out that night after play and anyway I went round to Don Bradman's house and he showed me lots of photographs of himself.

5:15Phil Tufnell: And he gave me, because he liked the way that I played, his baggy green. He gave me his baggy green. So the telegraph got excited and said, well, can we see it? I can't just find it at the minute. He's got a stand named after himself. He has. Old Trafford. Sir Clive Lloyd, Farouk. Not too sure about the sign, though, Dave. It's work experience. They've put it up there. Surely they'll be replacing them. Work experience from the college have done that. Shove them up. Waz, have you got a stand at Old Trafford? Not yet. Not yet. Surely. Well, obviously. Surely. Obviously. I mean, but we're getting there.

5:54Phil Tufnell: We have stands A, B, Fruit Engineer. A, Stan, Cliveline, H, J. What have you got? Nothing. Nothing yet. No. No, no. I didn't know A.B. de Villiers played. George? That's his name? Yeah, George Balderson. He presented the cup, yeah. Yeah. County Cup was him presenting this morning. Don't want to mess up the name again. You were there at the test, weren't you? I was. I was. Third day. Yeah. Hey, Waz, I've got this clip of you getting your county cup. Oh, no, don't. Cyril Wasbrook. The person who doesn't say well played to his vision, Agra. Look at yours, are there. Yeah. and half is about to... Oh, look at the hair.

6:41Look at the bar there. I know. I thought he was calling someone else. Seriously, I thought, who is that guy? That's not me.

6:50Phil Tufnell: He called you Vigianagram. Vigianagram. Vigianagram, he called him. Vigianagram. Come on. That was Cyril Washbrook, Hutton and Washbrook. He was for England and he was president at the time. He was a good man. He was quite a tyrant. Challenged you all the time. Really challenged you about what you were doing and so on. But he was a good man. Hey, what about facing him? Oh, Jesus Christ. What about him? One of the worst. One of the worst to face for a number 11. Bonafide number 11. Wazim Akram. Horrific. What were your game plan? Actually, show us his action. Come on. I'll tell you what. At the Oval, played against the Oval.

7:34You be the young man. Get the stumps forward a bit. All right, there you go. You'll be the umpire. You'll be the umpire.

7:40Phil Tufnell: Bring them forward. There you go. Bring them forward. All right. Go on. Like that. So I've staggered out. I've staggered out slightly, slightly nervous. Slightly nervous. Bag holes. Wazzy Macram. They either had Wazzy Macram or Wackar Eunice. OK. So I've staggered down the stairs. There you go. He's the umpire. He's the umpire. He's the umpire. So I'd be down the other end like that. Over or around? Left arm round. Left arm round. That's when he's left arm round, five to come. Yeah, so I'm sitting there, so my ears are pricked up. Left arm round, left arm round. Like, what's going on there? Well, I'm sitting there, yeah, five balls to come, and then I didn't see anything for about, I don't know, 30 seconds, because Waz used to sort of sneak up behind the umpire.

8:30He used to like that. And the only thing I saw was sort of like, What?

8:38And I went to the other end. I went, Jesus Christ! And this thing came bloody snaking down, stumps all over the place. You used to sort of skip behind them, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah, just sort of like that, and then just went... That's what I learned myself, why to try something different, go around the weekend as a left-hander and why come just behind the umpire. that batsmen can see you at the last second. So nobody taught me that. That's what you learn as a bowler, you know, to do different things. And me and Wakaar used to have a fight and arguments when you and Devin Malcolm were walking. It doesn't surprise.

9:17I need a ball. I need a ball. I need a ball. We've got a walking wicket coming in right away. Jesus Christ. Well, you must have looked at it.

9:25Phil Tufnell: So there's Angus Fraser, Alou Malali. Well, there was a few walking wickets. Devin. Tophers. Tophers, yeah. I think he knocked all three stumps out the ground. As I went, oh, my God, like that, and it just went, like that death rattle. I knew you will walk towards the leg umpire. Of course. Outswinger from there, from middle leg, and obviously he went like this, and his middle stem went away. I think it knocked him all out. I think it knocked him all out. There was nothing left as I looked around. They were all on the floor. Brilliant stuff. Good old days. Absolutely. But what an arm. Quick. Quick arm.

10:02Like a mantis shrimp. I remember 1987 when Pakistan toured England first time, my first tour, an Old Trafford test match. I was just warming up and I used to have run up of 25 yards, 25 steps, 17 mark and then go back 25 and run from there and sprint from 17. And that particular net session, I was just bowling from 17 yards, just three, four steps back and sprint straight. and I said, I called skipper Imran, the great man. He came down, he said, show me. I said, my pace is exactly the same if I'm bowling from 25 yards and the 17 yards. He said, okay, just show me. So I bowled about over, about six to nine deliveries with a shorter run-up and he straightaway said, stick to that run-up.

10:47And I think that helped as well in the long run. As a fast bowler, if you have shorter run-up, my action was just quick arm action and shoulder as well. I think that helped as well. You used to bowl in flats, didn't you? I can't agree with it sometimes and I was really bored. He used to turn off him when he was really bored. I told you, he boulders out in his Reebok pumps. Yeah.

11:08Phil Tufnell: Practice at Old Trafford. You know what they're like, all the lads. These balls are rubbish. You can't bowl with these. It was a waste of time. He used to go in the bag, pick the worst ball you could get, the worst one. Then he turned up one day, he said, I want to come in and practice some bowling a day off. That's all right. Pete Maron, who put, get a net ready and all that. He turned up in these flats and a pair of jeans with this little bloke, a little fella, with pads on. And he sets off, he's no idea, this fella. He was my cook.

11:47He used to come from Pakistan with me. And he was a cricket enthusiast. He was. And he just brought it.

11:53Phil Tufnell: A chef. I bet he was a very good chef. A bit lazy, but great chef. I said, he's going to kill him, yeah, this block. I said, what have you been doing with this? They said, no, it's just to throw it back. He's just got to throw the ball back. Yeah, got the old cook down there. I remember when I joined Lancashire first time, first year, obviously if it's raining or Lancashire is batting well, and I used to get really bored. And Gehan Mendes, I used to tell him, he got a lot of runs for Lancashire and for Susquehaw, top player. But I would tell him, if it was out, let's go into the nets. So we used to go back into the nets and I used to bowl with old ball, go around the wicket, go over the wicket.

12:35And I remember all the senior players, including my first captain, great guy as well, great skipper David Hughes. He said, why are you playing cricket? You've got to go out another six months to play. I said, look, I'm 21, man. I really have the energy to play every day. Eventually, after four or five years, you realize, okay, now is the time to just hang back a bit. But in the beginning, I was very passionate about the sport. And I think Lancashire was the best thing to me as a player on and off the field. Because when I joined Lancashire in 88, in 99, 90, I became one of the top players in world cricket.

13:08And that's how much country cricket helped me. By playing cricket? Playing cricket and off the field as well. A lot of confidence I got. A lot of things I've learned. My first meeting was at, I was landing from West Indies in 88. Alan Omer had picked me up. Another great person on and off the field, great help. He drove me from Heathrow to Nottingham. We were staying at the top seven-star hotel, Forte Post House.

13:35And Alan said, meeting at 6 o 'clock in the bar. I said, hang on a minute. Bar? Yeah, I'm from Pakistan. He said, it's just a meeting. I said, fine. So I arrived at 6 o 'clock. They were all freaking pissed by that. It's the best meeting in my head. It took me one month to understand what these guys were saying with the northern accent. So Neil Freyberg took me to his house, Harvey, great friend of mine, great guy, top player. And his mom asked me, would you like a kupa? And I just looked around at him. I said, what's kupa? He said, kupa, tea. I'll have tea. So I've learned a lot. And their sense of humor was very different.

14:09Remember those days we used to have those cricket bag coffins. We used to call them coffins without the wheels. Yes. Now you can carry it or you have people to carry for you. In county cricket, we used to carry our kit bags ourselves, big ones. And I was very young, 21 years old. Didn't know I have to wash my own clothes. You're a bit spoiled in Pakistan. You know, parents, mom do everything. She does it for you. And for the first month, I was carrying my bag and it was so heavy. Usually when you play, you just pick up the top things and change and get on with the game. Leicester ground, you carry your bag from the parking, little stairs go up.

14:44and after a month I found there was a freaking massive brick in my kit bag that thick and that long. I carried it for a month and it was Michael Watkinson who did that. When did you find out about that? Because surely next time you bowled him in the net you... When I realised I need to wash my clothes because my kit bag was... No, I was talking about the brick. The brick. Then I went down the bag and realised I thought, what the heck is this I've been carrying? When did you find out it was Mike? Yeah, I found out it was Mike, yeah. Then I cut his socks. I learned from these guys. Tricks of the trade.

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15:33Phil Tufnell: I've got a problem here. Wast says he's not coming on the bus. Quarter to two, he gets on the bus. He pulls in on the hard shoulder, this bloke. He says, I got on bus, now I get off. I don't believe in comparing eras, because in our era, mindset of a batter was totally different. When Ben's bowling, it helps his batting. Yeah. You know if you don't get runs, you will get wickets. So that gives you an extra edge. Gucci hooked him before. When as he was running past, he goes, Lost a yard in the winter, how he was in. Imran said no. Just bowl a length ball from outside of Stumboon. And I did. Just faint inside edge onto his stumps.

16:06He did swing about four and a half foot. He went like that. He said, 100 ,000 rupees. I said, I don't think my dad will give me that money. He said, no, no, I'm joking, you're going to get paid. I said, I'm going to get paid to play cricket? Looks like a hop-nob.

16:21Phil Tufnell: Just like a juke, man.

16:28Well, growing up in Lahore, when did cricket come into your life? How old were you? As a young kid, I played every sport apart from football. I was in school, table tennis team, basketball team, athletics and cricket. But I think I started playing cricket. My parents got divorced when I was 13. My dad lived in a very upper class, middle class area, Moral Town. And I moved back to Inner Lahore with my grandmother and mother and my younger sister. And over there, we just played cricket on the street with a tennis ball every day after school, during the school. And eventually, it's a very funny, I mean, interesting story.

17:07And one of the first-class cricketers who lived in the same little gully where I lived, Khalid Mahmood, he's no more. He asked me, why don't you play with cricket ball? I said, cricket ball? I'm not going to go to the net every day. I don't have 50 rupees a month to pay to the club. He said, don't worry, they won't charge you. He took me first month on his bike every day to the Ludhiana Gymkhana, my club. And that's where I started playing with the cricket ball in class 10, I think. In class 9 or 10 when I was about 14, 15. And I got hooked on it. Never looked back. I used to go, my coach, Saud Khan, Sadiq Khan.

17:39I used to go there at 2 o 'clock after my school, and 2.33, we were junior players, we'd pull up the net, and there were about 12 nets there. Every club has their own net, half cement pitch, not full half. So the balls were flying everywhere. But I used to bowl at 3 till 6 every day. And nowadays, I suppose you have a certain amount of, you have to bowl six bowls or eight deliveries. You've got to stop, you've got to stop. Management or something is called Bumble? The red zone. The red zone. Were you always... The red zone. Yeah, red zone. Oh, don't mention the red zone. Were you always naturally good at bowling and batting?

18:14Because obviously you were world-class all around. No, I played a lot of tennis cricket, so I was doing both. I mean, I used to bowl just full with tennis ball because it was six side and six overs game. So obviously small boundaries. There were tournaments in the month of Ramadan, night tournaments, and people used to get me over, give me a little bit of money, pocket money, to play for their teams. And yes, you used to bowl just full. Yeah. Full. Because you play on a street, if you hit straight, that's four. If you go to that house or that house, it's out. So that's how I just... I thought I was just enjoying the game.

18:50I was lucky that I got picked up for Pakistan out of the blue. Were they tape tennis balls or just... Tennis. Sometime tape tennis. Sometime normal tennis. Sometime you used to burn the tennis ball, the fur. And you used to... You know, the skin used to come out. You used to wet that skin, then play with it. Reverse swing? Reverse swing with the tape ball, yeah. Unplayable. Oh, wow. So you get into the Pakistan team from nowhere. My first first-class game was against New Zealand. So I got picked up. I was in a camp. I did well for my club, Luthiana Gymkhana. Got some wickets. Used to be a two-day cricket those days, 75 overs each day.

19:30And that is gone, obviously. Krupp cricket is gone from Pakistan. and I got wickets in that tournament and then there was a summer camp in 1986, I think it was. No, before 84. My name was in 100, you know, players were announced by PCB. My name was there. Ramiz Raja played test cricket. He was there. Mohsin Kamal played one test. He was there. And all the top first-class cricketers were there, their performance. and Javed Miedad came into that net for a net so obviously being a Pakistani captain one of the greatest players Pakistan have produced his net was the other side of the stadium you know inside the stadium and he wanted some bowlers so chem commander Agha Sadat Ali sent me to Javed Miedad go and bowl at him I was like so excited to see Javed Miedad right in front in front of me.

20:28He was my hero. He still is my hero. And then I bowled at him two, three days. He got impressed. And after about two months, New Zealand were touring. And my name was announced in the squad, 16. I read it in the newspaper. My dad called me. And then I played the game in Rawalpindi. I knew, I didn't know who the players were apart from Jeff Crowe, Martin Crowe. John Reid was there. Jeff Harwood was the captain. Jeremy Coney. Big names. John Wright. John Wright, the lefty from New Zealand. Not John Wright. John Reed, sorry. Yeah, John Reed. John Reed. And John Wright was there as well. So first inning, I got 7 for 50.

21:06Nice. Don't know how. Seriously. I was just an 18, 17-year-old kid. Just running into ball. And thanks to Javed Mia, that he played me in that squad. I think he dropped Tahir Nakash, a test cricketer, to have me in the playing 11. And I think I got 7 for 50 and 2 for 50 in the second inning. Nice.

21:23Phil Tufnell: He was a great player, me and Dad. One of the greats. What about Imran? I met him, I went to New Zealand. Then I got picked up for the New Zealand squad. First time I was going to New Zealand, I called my Javed Miyada. You know, he's got a great sense of humor too. I said, Javed bhai, how much money I should take? He said, 100 ,000 rupees. In 1984, 85 was a lot of money. I said, I don't think my dad will give me that money. He said, no, no, I'm joking. You're going to get paid. I said, I'm going to get paid to play cricket? So I went on the tour. got, I think, my first test match, I got injured while playing against New Zealand at Auckland.

22:03Sir Richard Headley was there. He hit me right on my knee. Those days pads weren't that great. And I was limping. I bowled, but I got two wickets for 98-100. But I think third or second, third test match was in Dunedin. And we lost that game. A very close game. And I got ten wickets there. Five and five. And then we flew to Australia for the mini World Cup in 1985, where all the teams were there. And that's where I met the great man Imran Khan. First time at Sydney Airport. He was playing for New South Wales, coming back from injury. And then he joined Pakistan team. And from there onwards, he took me under his wings.

22:39Phil Tufnell: Do you remember that double wicket that we played somewhere in the Emirates? Bahrain, I think it was. And it was for Kazim Omar. Kazim Omar's benefit. Me and Fowler, me and Graham Fowler were from Bahrain. I remember him, yeah. And he's there with Imran. It must have been about 1984. 85, I think it was. Right. So we've seen him. I mean, to ring back at that time, we've seen this bloke sign him, just sign him to Lanks. And that would be to... That would be... I don't know, I'm not David Hughes. David Hughes, I don't know. David Hughes, probably. Whom? Neil Fay brother and Laurie Brown. They met me in Sharjah.

23:24The great Laurie Brown, great guy. They met me in Sharjah. And they said, you want to play for Lancashire? I thought he was league because those days you have to be the top-notch player to play county cricket. You were only allowed one overseas to play in playing 11 and you can register to.

23:38Phil Tufnell: And we had Patrick Patterson. Oh, God. Facing Patterson in the second season. In the twos? Yeah. Or him. Yeah. Or him. I played second grade cricket. He played second 11 as well. one or the other injuries in the first team you might cop for Wazim or Patrick or in the second you might cop for Wazim or Patrick 17 year old kid out of school on day do you're like that 32 year old bloke just coming back from a bit of hamstring, I'll have a game in the twos I think my hamstring might last a bit longer

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26:36Who's the best bats from the over boulder? This question has been asked lots of times. Look, I played against the greats like Sarvim and Richards, top of the ladder for me. It's just not his batting, it's the whole package, the charisma he used to carry around him. And then, of course, I played against Alan Border, Graham Gooch. I'm talking about the early 90s, then you come back to the Sachin Tendulkar's, Brian Lara's. I'm missing quite a few. But I think Viv Richards kind of was the end of his career. after about 87, 88, the Great Wave. But what a character he was. I mean, he was everyone's hero, every cricketer's hero.

27:17Do you know Paul Pritchard? Yes. He used to open the batting with Gucci. Yeah. He tells a story, he's like saying his face was him. And was him bounced Gucci and Gucci hooked him for four and then got a single. And as he was running past, he goes, lost a yard in the winter, has he was him? Anyway, he said it to you, right? Anyway, he then turned... What are you doing, coach? He then turned to Pritch, who was just sat at the non-striker and watching, and goes, I can't kill him, but I'm going to fucking kill you. And Pritch is like, I haven't done anything. It's true, though. I remember that, yeah.

27:55So, yeah, the story. And then, of course, I never looked back, then I joined Lancashire, talking about the best play technique-wise. Look, in the 90s, nobody knew what reverse swing was. Apparently it was ball tampering. And then suddenly everybody learned it became reverse swing. Thank you very much. And Martin Crowe. Yes. I remember a test series in 1993. He got 200s against me and Vakar, where Vakar got 30 wickets in three games. And I got 16 in two. And I got injured after the second test match. And he was reversing from the ball go. Don't know why. Don't ask me why. For some odd reason he was reversing.

28:33What was the key to reverse? We've got an old ball here. If you had that ball there, how would you get that ball reversed? Look, it depends on the weather, depends on the square, depends how lush the square is, how lush the outfield is. The whole team has to be involved. If it's rough side, this one, and if one guy giving one bounce throw, no, no, no, no. You've got to throw the ball direct to the keeper, direct to the better, less hands, better. That's Mushy when he joined us. He was fast. He was like, because Matt Pryor played at Sussex. Matt Pryor was, they had him and Rana. Rana. And Matt was all over us.

29:13If you couldn't, sometimes you could throw it on the one bounce. But if you didn't trust yourself to hit the rough side, don't you dare. And it was no hands on the ball. So actually, because I didn't swear. If you want to shine, make sure your rough side is there. You shine like this ball. If you're going to shine like this, the rough side will go soft. And obviously there won't be any reverse swing. So just do not touch the rough side. So as I didn't swear, I was in charge of when it was reverse swing. because I could almost touch a rough side and not do any damage. So you don't sweat? I don't really sweat.

29:38So my hand's always dry. So Matt Pryor would get it, throw it to me, I'll shine it. And obviously no one else is touching it, so it gets drier and drier. And Mushy reckoned, I don't know who you think, it's like two overs, if someone could put their hand on there, it took two overs to get back to the same set. I remember when the great Saklan Mushtaq, what a bowler he was, though, as an off-spinner. I mean, he was unbelievable. One of the best I played with. He won so many games for Pakistan. His habit was to bowl like this. So we had to tell him, buddy, change his habit, otherwise we might not play you.

30:11Understanding the great player. Yeah, because the rough side used to get really soft. Monty did the same. Monty used to spin it in there with the rough side there and spin it into his hands. So he had to do it the other way. He obviously had massive fingers. So he could have the rough side there, not touch the rough side, and then still do his habit and then switch it over to however we want to bowl.

30:28Phil Tufnell: What about sweaty, yes? Oh, my God, yeah, sweaty. Sweaty. We had sweaty ears, Gary, Gary, yeah. So he would always... I used to stand from fine leg, used to abuse. I'd be, fucking stop it! Can somebody talk to him? How soon do you see a ball and go, yeah, it's nearly ready? This one? Yeah. No, this one will never be ready. This is not a reverse swing ball as yet, because both sides exactly are the same. So how do you get that to reverse? It depends. If it's a sunny day, then you obviously throw one bounce into the rough. You get little rough on the patches, then they work on your patches. I don't know how, but you work on the patches.

31:06You know how to do it. Everybody knows what to do now. Yes, exactly. Who taught you that was? Where did you find that out? I think Waqar knew it before he came into Pakistan team, in a first class. But I learned while Amudhassar Nazar was the key in my career early on, what a cricketer he was mentally. I think he was a go-to guy. If Imran or Javed Miad wanted any cricket advice on the field or off the field, Moody was the guy. And he was the one who taught me, and then Imran was the one who taught me. I remember.

31:34Phil Tufnell: But that rough side, you neglect it, totally neglect it. Leave it alone, don't touch it. Don't touch it. Keep going, keep going, keep going. And then there comes a time, right, off we go. But you're shining the other side, aren't you? Yeah, yeah, you've got to shine properly. You're shining the other side. Yeah, yeah. So there's one rough. It's almost like tape ball, isn't it? It really is. Yeah, there's one that you're working hard to get a good shine on it. leave the other side completely. And it looks like that. Get it looking like that. It looks like a hobnob. Looking like a hobnob. That's what...

32:06Phil Tufnell: That tastes like a jute. I have a picture of a cricket ball where I got 11 wickets, I think, 5 and 6 in West Indies. I took a picture the other day. I'll just show you. Look at this. We do have close-up. Look at the rough side. It's a kookaburra. Wow, yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah. It's like that biscuit, you're right. It is. Have a look. That's exactly the same. Whirly, yeah. Exactly the same. Yeah. Looks like the old Rottweilers had it. It was Antigua, so the rickety was dry. And the square was dry too, yeah. Exactly the same, isn't it? Yeah, that's exactly it. It's like a Viennese whirly. Exactly the same.

32:48Phil Tufnell: Yeah. There was, like, legendary bowl. There's a great, great bowl. We've seen it with Jasper Bourne. we saw it with Jofar Arsh the last day at Lourdes you seem to have a knack of going I have to deliver now have to get the team some wickets how do you achieve that? It's a believe in your hard work and believe in yourself and obviously believe in your talent that you can do it and ask for more never be satisfied with your performance once you took five wickets as a bowler you won a game for your county or for your country Enjoy that day and move on for the next game. That is history. And that's how you have to be consistent.

33:29And I think this day and age mindset have changed due to county cricket. I was watching that game with you the other day, with Michael Watkinson and Neil Faye brother, remember? Umrah bowled this beautiful two deliveries, back of a length, bowling from the pavilion end, extra bounce a bit, and then something totally different. Nowadays, bowlers, for some odd reason, they can't just hit that length consistently, especially in test cricket. That because of T20 format. T20, okay, I'm all for variation, but sometimes you don't have to bowl a variation. Just go with back of a length that, you know, go to delivery.

34:04They do it, they bowl two good bowls, they come back with this one and go for six. So that's where the problem is. They try too many things nowadays. This show is brought to you by Betfair.

34:2092 World Cup. Yeah. I was there. You were there. I was there. How did you play? I did play. I played three games. They dropped me for the bloody final. Unbelievable. Illy played. Illy played instead of me. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, you turned that around on a six, but we played well that year. You guys were winning. You were the best team in the world at the time. Absolutely. We had you bowled out for 72 at Adelaide, and the rain came. Yeah, yeah. That rain came, you got point each. Yeah. And then the final, obviously, England were the best side in the world. Number 10 was Philip De Freitas, so Pringle.

34:52Proper all-rounders. And I think that was the plan. Credit to the captain, skipper Imran Khan. He said, we were losing wicket early on with the new ball. There were two new balls. A lot of debate happening now. The reverse swing is gone because of two new balls. No, no, no. Whenever we played in Australia and New Zealand, there were always two new balls with colored clothing. Always had two new balls. So Imran said, I'll bat at number three. That's a big decision for a captain in the World Cup. He did the semifinal and he did it in the finals. So he batted at number three. The idea was he will block.

35:29He did that. He didn't go to run the semifinal. The final, he went at number three. He blocked, blocked, blocked. I think we were 90 foot two. Struggling. In 25 overs. Yeah, you're struggling. And then the plan worked. Obviously, we had wickets in hand and then Zabam got quick 5.30, then I came in, I got quick 5.30, and then we got to 2.49. That was a good total. And then, of course, when you were chasing, you were at 90 out for four. Pushy bowled brilliantly. And then you bowled that delivery to Alan Lamb and Chris Lewis. I remember it was 30, those days, 34 over, there was a water break. Brings break.

36:00Water break. There was 34 over. 34 overs, yeah. So there was a little meeting, the senior player, I think, Javid Bhai was there, Imran Skipper was there, and they said, we need you to bowl two overs from the pavilion end at MCG. And obviously, we knew that that side of the bowl is reversing a bit. And I remember Neil told me afterwards that he went to Alan Lamb and told him, the seam will go around the wicket and he will bowl outswing to you. So just don't play a shot. Just go block with the soft hands. And I think it was meant to be. I did plan, go around the wicket, bowl that outswing. and then next delivery when Chris Lewis was walking in, my plan was to bowl in swing.

36:43Yorker. Imran said no. He'll be expecting that Yorker. Just bowl a length ball from outside of Stumboon. And I listened to him and I did. Just faint inside edge onto his stumps. It did swing about four and a half foot. It went like that. It did. What was it like playing under Imran Khan? I think whatever I did as a cricketer, off the field, on the field, Credit goes to him. He used to give us a lot of confidence. He led from the front. He had to believe in his own ability. He was a hard-working cricketer. He was never... People used to say, I'm very naturally talented. Skipper wasn't talented.

37:22He worked hard. Remember he changed his bowling action? He did? From 76. Yeah, exactly. Changing even a little bit, Bumble, as a bowler, you guys, you will know. Changing a little bit action can take months. If you have to come close to the stumps, it will take probably months. It might not happen. But he did change his action. He was so determined. I mean, he was the best captain I played under. He used to give confidence to every one of us. At times, he used to shout at us because if you were lazy, fair enough. He was tough, was he? He was tough, but he was tough on the field. He'd give you 100%.

37:57If you don't, he was okay with it. If you're trying to save yourself, I'm okay. if it's a pressure situation, I just, you know, take a back seat. He used to judge. He knew that this particular player is just saving himself. So that used to annoy him a lot.

38:12Phil Tufnell: He used to, when he first started at Worcestershire, he used to ball 75 mile an hour tops. Really? But filthy in swing. He used to go wide of the crease, put his arm out there and ball filthy in swing. Then I think he went to Oxford University and then sort of home this, come in, racing in, big bound, got round here. He got a big bound, he just jumped right up, big bound. And then we went to Sussex, so we had half of the room at one end, Imran at the other end. Sussex running down the hill was incredible for a bowler. He was a brilliant player. He was a good bloke as well, Imran Kammer, a good lad.

38:54Straightforward. He would have been late 80s, 90s, wouldn't he? you know, speeds? Skipper, I think Haydase, he was 90. Yeah, 90 plus. He was quick. Yeah, quick as. He was the sharpest. Yeah. I remember the series in 82, he got 40 wickets against India and I don't know, runs as well. He was quick enough. Yeah, quick enough. At least not any wickets. Is there a spell that you remember in your career or a certain batter that you worked over that you thought, yeah, that was like one of the key spells of my career? I always believed in myself. Obviously, the great players like Brian Laras, Tandul Kers and of course, Alan Borders, with Richards.

39:29Desmond Haynes, I forgot to mention what a player he was. Always on a front foot. Greenwich. Greenwich was kind of, I played a few games against him, but Desi, lots of games. He was always on a front foot. From there, he used to hook and pull. I think that's what used to people, players who got us, me and Vakar early on, players who used to hook and pull on a front foot. That troubled me and Vakar. and then we used to go to a plan B and I think that was their idea. Say, Martin Crow, Viv Richards, all these guys. If you're blocking and blocking and blocking, eventually you're going to get a good delivery.

40:08And I did ask the great man, Martin Crow, when he got 200s against us in 93. I said, how this ball is swinging that way if the minute go, both ways. What was your plan? He said, my plan was to be on a front foot and just wait for the in-swing. Just play the in-swing. Out-swing will automatically go past. And that's how he got runs, patience. Because then we became impatient as bowlers. And that's what he did. In England now, we've got Ben Stokes all-round. Yeah, what a player. He's brilliant. As an all-rounder, I mean, we hear each say that, you know, when Ben's bowling, it helps his batting. Yeah.

40:45Is that right as an all-rounder? If you're doing everything, it helps? First of all, you have to be physically very, very fit. Mentally fit, I'm all for it. But physically very, very fit to do the both at test level, like Ben does. so he's obviously very fit and then you know if you don't get runs you will get wickets so that gives you an extra edge an extra confidence if I haven't got wickets I'll get runs for my team and vice versa and I think that's what he does beautifully he does lead from the front and I think he's one of the best leaders in world cricket what did you prefer? I was just asking you prefer batting on the ball you asked it to show I was never kind of serious as a batter although got 250 runs in one innings, but I wanted to be the...

41:30Not serious. 257, wasn't it? Against Zimbabwe. Against Zimbabwe. We were 170 for six. They got 375 or something in Shekhupura. And when I went into bat, we were 170 for six. Me and Saklan had a partnership of 300 plus runs. Yeah, so it was just incredible days. What were we talking about? I forgot now. Batin or Bowling. Yeah, bowling. Absolutely bowling. I loved bowling. people said you never took your batting seriously. I thought if I'm concentrating on batting, I'll probably affect my bowling a bit. I wanted to be a quick, fast bowler. I didn't want to conserve and have my energy for my batting.

42:10Batting comes, it comes. I remember you winning, I don't know what, was it a quarter-final or a semi-final for Langford? Worcester. Worcester, semi-final. You came from nowhere. Were you a coach at the time?

42:20Phil Tufnell: I think so, yeah. Yeah, yeah, when Sweaty lost his hat. Yes, yes, that's the one. Because crowd invasion, somebody nicked Sweaty's hat and he's chasing around the boat. Celebrating. He was chasing the hat. He was chasing the hat. What are your memories of Bumble as a coach? Very easy. Organised. Organised. He used to be, yeah. Well, that's all I was there to help Fairbrother of Watkinson. At that time, it was just the assistant, get everybody ready, everybody's happy. We had a great dressing room. We had a great dressing room. I remember we lost a game in two days. It was a three-day game at Cheltenham, it was.

42:54We were talking about this the other day. Yeah, it was over in day and a half. Three-day game. We got 20 walsh. We got about 100 rickets in that game. And then Bumble just took it out to party in the afternoon, the whole team. He said, nobody's talking cricket.

43:08Phil Tufnell: Yeah. What is the famous place you went to? Montpellier? Montpellier Wine Boy. Went to Montpellier Wine Boy. You've never heard of that. That's other than one. Yeah. At Jeltenham, they used to have a tent there, like a third man. Yeah. Funnily enough, I used to field third man. That's it. They used to put a little chair out for me like that. I used to sit there, have a little glass of champagne and have a smoke. Hey, Bumble, as a coach, what's it like coaching someone like one? You just don't, do you? How do you coach? When I got to England level, I'm there to assist Atherton. I'm there as his eyes and ears and organise things, get all the pre-max stuff done, strengths and weaknesses, opposition and so on.

43:55Phil Tufnell: But our dressing room at Langs, they were a real happy bunch. So you'd have Watkinson at six, Was at seven, Egg at eight. Bully. Bully at nine, Chapel at ten, Martin, 11. Philip De Fritos. Duffy, when I come in, Duffy left and went to Derby. Ah, OK. He said, Duffy, he looked great like that. He said that the air were better in Diver for somebody in the family who were asthmatic. So they went down to Burton-on-Trent where there's a bloody big brewery there churning it all out. Took the waters. You're probably multitasking right now, right? Commuting, working out, crossing things off your list. Worth asking when Check In On Yourself landed on it.

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47:04Playing a one-day final at Lord's, that's the one thing in the county game that I really miss. Ultimate. I remember my first final. 50-over final at the home of cricket. It's a belter, isn't it? The Lord's of a man. I remember the first one, like yesterday, because that was a big deal. And I didn't know it was a big deal. So I remember we got measured by the suits, how are we going to go into the ground? See? Carry another suit after the game. Two suits. Out two suits. Wow. This is yours.

47:33Phil Tufnell: Dave a bit we walk in through them grace gates everybody together we are a team yeah let everybody know we are here that was it you didn't go for the Liverpool white suits did you no not the red rose I remember we used to have a red rose just before entering proper red rose proper one so I went to a wedding it was a huge deal for me I arrived at the when we arrived at The stadium was almost packed. 30-odd thousand people at Lord's Spring. It was Lancashire versus Worcestershire. It was that great man, Graham Hick versus Vaseem Akram in the newspapers. Yeah, it was. And I was pumped up. Obviously, they were pumped up.

48:16It was something very different for me, something very new for me, that kind of atmosphere. And the trains, all the members used to come on a train. We had a bus, I remember.

48:28Phil Tufnell: Yeah, proper, which we didn't usually have, like a proper bus. with tables and a little light on it. A telly and all that. Yeah, a little light on it. Here we come. Here we come. That's it. Microwave in the corner. Yeah, microwave. They were big do's, weren't they? What? Big do's. Travern stand. We've got to tell that. Everyone in the tavern stand. So we're playing a game at Hove and they decide the team, what the culture of the team is. It has nothing to do with me. They decide how we want to be seen by the OPPO, by the officials, administrators, supporters. They'd put all that and put their own rules together.

49:06Phil Tufnell: The team, nothing to do with me. And the rule was that they put together was that if it's south of Birmingham, we go on a bus. Anything north-east or west, we go in a car. You know, in a car. So we're playing at home. I put the team up, 1.45 leave car park. I'm going in car. No, no, no. I think no. We're going on a bus. You've decided it's south of Birmingham. I'm going in car. That puts me in a real bad position. If I say you're going in a car, the fair brother will come, I'm going in my car. There'll only be me on the bus. I'm going in car. So I have a sleepless night. I ring Watkinson up. I said, look, I've got a problem here.

49:55Phil Tufnell: Wast says he's not coming on the bus. If he don't come on the bus, he don't play. and they won't want that because he's our man. He said, we'll see how it goes. Quarter to two, he gets on the bus, he's got a little bag. I thought, great. I said, well done, good lad. Go and sit at the front, read the paper, they all go to the back. Set off, go past Mia Golf Club, get to Nutsford Services, turn left, down the M6. He pulls in on the hard shoulder, this bloke. He has his lights going. And I put my paper. I said, well, somebody we brought down. He said, no, he's getting off. Who's getting off? He said, this bloke here.

50:30Phil Tufnell: So I turned round, he's got a little bag, and he says to me as I was walking past, he said, I got on bus, now I fucking get off. I had a friend phone with me in the bus. He had a mate following in a car. And I thought, well, that's great, I'd have done that myself. And I bet you he played, didn't he? Oh, aye. Absolutely. I reckon he had a night out in Birmingham and then drove down to Hove the following day. Probably. I think we did well in that game as well. We did. We did, yeah. See, clever, you see. Yeah. I thought, I'll do that myself. God, I'll get that off. It was. You've had diabetes for many years.

51:10How have you managed to cope with that? I know you campaign for it, don't you? Yeah, I got diagnosed in 97. I started losing weight. My vision was a bit blurred. I was thirsty all the time. I was urinating a lot. and my dad came up to me, God rest his soul in peace, came up to me and he said, I explained this is happening and I'm just not feeling better. He said, have you blood sugar tests? I said, what the heck is blood sugar? Those days, in the 90s, there was no awareness of diabetes at all. And then I went, had my blood test done. Usually your diabetes, normal like you guys, is 100 and 110.

51:52Mine was 450. so obviously went to the specialist and he said you have to be an insulin straight away I said what the heck is insulin in those days they weren't disposable pens like we have now you can just measure a thing stick it and walk on you have to have certain vials with you bottles with you and then big syringes on the side so it was tough first two three was tough it did affect my game mentally and physically I think my late wife also helped a lot being a psychologist Then I said, I have to get, I asked doctor only one thing. I said, look, will I be able to play cricket? He said, yes, if you control your levels.

52:30And it's very difficult to control your levels when you're traveling. And when you don't have any awareness. What to eat, what not to eat, what to drink. And when I went to South Africa, I think when I joined Pakistan team after being diagnosed, first three, four weeks were very tough. And your sugar level drops as well when you're diabetic. And you can feel it. Now it means 25 years. Now I can feel it very late. In the beginning, you can feel something is not right. Then you have some chocolate, some sweets. And so everybody helped, chipped in, the whole team at the time. They knew what it was.

53:02I used to give sweets like this to umpires. Just in case my sugar level drops, a couple of tablets get on with it. Usually it takes 15, 20 minutes to recover, but I just got used to it. Just move on quickly.

53:13Phil Tufnell: Tough. You mentioned teammates helping you out. I mean, your biggest teammate at Langs was Neil. fair brother. Still is. That's a lifelong friendship. It's fabulous to see them together. Went to the barbecue on the Saturday. Yeah, and this week, we have a test match at Old Trafford. I go downstairs. He sat with Mike Watkinson. It was so good to see him. I met Walter before, Paul Allett. Paul Allett, yeah. Chucky was around. Chucky Egg, yeah. Yeah, I met Bob Bennett. Bob, yeah. Surely he's got to get a stand, hasn't he? Well, of course he will. I mean, by another 20 years, he'll get a stand. He was big mates with Oscar as well.

53:51Phil Tufnell: I haven't seen him. The bulbous one. What a player. Ian Austin. He used to get me out of LB every single time. How many games he won for Lancashire. Talk about four-day cricket, talk about one day. He was just a phenomenal cricketer and a great, simple, straightforward guy. And I spoke to him last year. He messaged me, then I called him, he spoke. He said, you know, I stopped drinking. I said, how come? What happened to you? He said, they'd taken out my gold blader. I wasn't well. I said, to be honest, you drank for the world, buddy, so it's OK. He ended up, he worked for a brewery. Now he's got a wine shop, not wine shop, sorry, wine bar.

54:29Wine bar. Yeah, yeah, he's doing very well, he says.

54:32Phil Tufnell: That is a play on words. He's got a wine bar in Accrington. Accrington, yeah.

54:39Right, we've finished with some community questions. Sure. So we've had a few questions sent in. This is quite a tricky one for you, Wazi. You've got to name your best five cricketers that you've seen. Okay. I can understand you ask these questions to your guests, but I think it would be nice if you can tell them the day before they can do better homework. Well, you mentioned Viv, didn't you? Viv Richards. Yeah, you mentioned Martin Crowe as well. Martin Crowe. But my top has to be Imran Khan for me because of the performance he did for Pakistan. Viv Richards, Martin Crowe. Javed? Talking about overall or talking about the eras you know Brian Lara such a good guy has got to be there unfortunately Javed Bhai is definitely 6 but he is up to it but these guys I mean very rarely played against the great Ricky Ponting but one day cricket I felt up to one cricketer who troubled me and Vakar that was freaking one man Australian Gilchrist remember I played 350 odd one days or even more Bouncer was a no ball guys and you have 15 overs and two catching in those first 15 overs you can only have two fielders outside the circle so Gilly was tough and Jasuria was tough in one degree another great player and I'm forgetting another Sri Lankan who was top of the ladder Arvinda De Silva what a player he scored a great hundred in a one day was that against Lanks?

56:09yeah it was against Lanks I got in trouble

56:11Phil Tufnell: Our coach at the time, we'd done the media after, and he's got this 112. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm asked. And who got that breakthrough? Bully. Bully. Yeah. Junior Bumble took the catch. Junior Bumble caught him at deep square leg, which was a bit of a plan anyway. Yeah. So what a wonderful innings from Aravinda Da Silva. You must have been impressed. I said, who won? Just left it at that. Got in a bit of a... Asshole. Asshole. Nah. Of course we did. Of course. I remember watching. He had those earpieces on, didn't he? I've watched that. I swear I can't want that. Cool. Also, there's a lot of...

56:50Sorry, carry on. There you go. There's a lot of debate nowadays about comparing this era, bowlers from the 90s era. I've been seeing on social media. It's huge now, so you go through. I don't believe in comparing eras because in our era, mindset of a better was totally different. This era, better of a mindset is totally different. If you bowl a bad ball, they probably will leave you. You'll let it go. If you bowl it, nowadays they go for this, for six. So a different mindset. It's difficult to compare the eras, I reckon. But for my era, the best bowler, if I have to pick one bowler, top of the ladder has to be great Malcolm Marshall.

57:27Oh, yeah. Unbelievable. Because I think the bowlers have got wickets on every surface, not just England or Australia or, you know, cushy places, especially in subcontinent. and Mecco got wickets in subcontinent against India, against Pakistan, against whoever. This is a good question as an all-rounder. Who wins? A team of the best batters of all time or a team of the best bowlers? Who win the games in Test cricket? Bowlers. Bowlers win the game. They have to get 20 wickets. They have to get the 20 polls. This is a bit... India, Pakistan. Where are we at with the political side? The Asia Cup is coming up in September.

58:09But will you, in our time, do you think we'll see an India-Pakistan test series? I hope so. But I think Indians will probably take a different take on it. But in my opinion, politics apart, we are not a politician. I'm not a politician. They are patriotic about their country. We are patriotic about our country. And let's don't go below the belt. Talk about your country. Talk about your triumph. Same goes for Pakistan. Same goes for India. But it's easier said than done. Am I right? So, Asia Cup, the schedule has been announced. Let's see what happens. They're probably getting a backlash. But in Pakistan, we are okay.

58:44We're actually calm. We are fine if we play or if we don't play. Brilliant. But we must go on. Of course. We'll finish with this one. The best country that you liked playing cricket in? I think I have to pick two. Difficult to pick one. Of course, England, because of the facilities, everything, the history you don't have to sit on a plane, fly, take a bus or a car, you can travel the grounds, the facilities the knowledge of the game and then of course Australia because that's where you cricketed I remember when I was touring Australia in 1989 after the first year with Lancashire Imran told me if you perform in this country, against this country you'll recognize straight away and that's what exactly happened when I went 99-92 got 10 wickets MCG then who got 105 wickets and 50 and two wickets in the Adelaide game, the next game.

59:40Yeah, I was only about 23, 24. 900 international wickets. It's a lot, it's a lot. It's a lot, yeah. It's a lot in a way. We played a lot of cricket. First class, I had about 300. I don't know how many first class games I played, including test matches and Lancashire in general. And when you used to get time off, I was employed by PIA, Pakistan International Airlines. Pilot? No, as a cricket team. All the banks had their teams, so I was a regular employee for them as well, but to play cricket. And I used to play first class for them. We won a lot of one-day competitions for PI as well. Is it true that you set up a team called the British government?

1:00:22When I was young. In Urdu, I can say in Urdu, it's called Hakoumatyar Britannia 11. Hakoumat means government, Britannia means England. We were just young kids and inside Lahore, that inner Lahore, we have a team we used to call exactly that. And we used to do very well. I haven't visited that my old place. I would love to go someday if I get some time to see my mates if they're still around. Brilliant. Waz, that's been a pleasure. Really great. Thank you. That was great. Good to be here. Good to be here, guys. Excellent. Best in a business. Glad I never have. You're a reverse of a biscuit. Best in a business.

1:01:26We'll be right back.

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