Ange: Forest Regrets, Spurs Chaos & Beating United in Europe | Stick to Football 117

0:00Just before we get started, a quick thanks to our partners and clothing. We hope you enjoy the show.

0:10Are you working on the World Cup, Ange? Sort of thinking about it, yeah. Because I don't know what I'm doing work-wise. For ITV again? Not sure yet. It's kind of disgusting, yeah. Did you enjoy the last one? I don't mind it. I don't like the in-between, like filling up your time in between. So there's games on, it's all right. But yeah, I don't mind. Look, I'm kind of an introvert by nature, but football-wise, I can talk. Yeah. You're having a tea. It's tea. Yeah, I'll have a tea. Thank you, mate. Do you know something, Andrew? I was thinking about that, you know. Thanks, mate. It's more than hammering, to be fair.

0:53If you're playing Saturday, Wednesday, Saturday, you're doing Friday interviews, you're doing Saturday after the game, you're doing Tuesday before the game, you're doing Wednesday night after the game, and you're doing Friday before the Saturday. And I just did it for four months, and we had, believe it, we were in the Europa League and the Copa del Rey, and I remember it was killing me. I said this to you before, aren't I? Those six press conferences a week were killing me. I did 130-something last year. Thank you. Wow. Because we had 60 games. So I did pre, post. Post, you could do four or five.

1:24Yeah. And sort of the individual ones. So I would have done between 130, 100. And, mate, you know what? It drains you, doesn't it? It does, and you're going to say some stupid things in there, but you're not always going to get it right, you know. We were talking about when you're playing Saturday, Wednesday, Saturday, as a manager, Andrew said he did 130 press conferences last year because he did 60 games in the Europa League. And I remember, to be fair, you were at one of my last press conferences. Yeah, your last one, in Barcelona. I got beat 7-0 by Barcelona. Oh, I was there. So he just interviewed Tuarez.

1:55Did you start asking a question? It's actually, if you go on YouTube, you'll see that press conference. I mean, it was brutal. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was brutal. When will you get out of our club? When will you get out of our club? Really? Oh, yeah. Do you know when you think sometimes, like, in this country, we ask difficult questions or sometimes pundits are a bit, and it's, no word of a lie, just watch that press conference back. It was a, do you not think you should, it started off with, like, do you not think you should, hand your notes in, do you not think you should resign? Oh, my God. And then it was, eventually.

2:19Then you were like, it was the owner asking you the questions. It was like, when are you going to get out of this club? You know, when are you going to realise and be honest that you can't do this? It was literally like, it was a barrage and it was like ten minutes of it, wasn't it? Great.

2:33What do you say if someone says that, though? Like, when are you going to get out of our club? I still believe in the process. Project. Do you have a project? This project is only just getting started. I always win in my first year, I was going to say.

2:50Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. I don't puskiss. It's mad, mate. It's crazy. I had the worst car in the world, and I used to pick up one of the greatest places. I was picking up Bex, you know, I don't know, whatever kind of car, because I drive Bentley now. You forgot your roots. He's not scared of anything, mate. He's a winner. Does he cross the line, yeah? He does. You know, he cross the line of training sometimes, and the coaches go, oh, you know. I go, well, you go tell him. I'm not telling you. No one's going to talk to me about rivalry. I lived and breathed it up there.

3:22I remember the first year we won the double. Rangers were in the Europa Cup final. I got more text messages the night they lost the Europa Cup final than we won the league. To have a career, you're going to go through tough times. And when you're going through those tough times, appreciate them. Because the unhappiest I've ever been is when I haven't been in the dugout. It's the old adage of success has many fathers and failure is an orphan. Everyone contributed to the Europa Cup. The league was all on me, by the way.

3:55When you said, I always win in my second year, it's obviously true. But it was ballsy, that one. Yes. I think we'd lost Arsenal when the reporter asked me. But I just thought, you know what, I've got to double down on this because I'll get eaten alive here. We spoke about Spurs and the kind of club. I've just got to back myself here. And I think, if nothing else, it resonated with the players. and the coaching staff, they go, OK, like you said, put his balls on the line, OK, well, let's see how we go from here. Because I think if I shied away from it at that point, it's a slippery slope then, mate, trying to grasp it back.

4:37I thought you were going to kiss him then. I was going to kiss him, but he's bearded. I'd love a kiss from Ryan. Do you think sometimes as a management you say that because it's a ballsy thing to say, but do you sometimes think as a manager, you're getting stick from everywhere, you know, the press, pundits, you know, results are maybe not going well. You've almost got to almost stand up for yourself and almost just come out. And even if people say, oh, he's on the front foot, he's a bit like... But I sometimes look at managers like that and think, oh, he's got to talk about him. He's always like bullish because you don't feel like anyone's really defending you.

5:07So you've almost got to go out and sort of fight for yourself in some ways. For all intents and purposes, you're a leader, right? You don't want to see leaders who are kind of don't have self-belief in what they're doing because then how are you going to ask a group of people to sort of follow you after that, you know, if you will? And look, I mean, I was getting towards the back end of last year. I said I had the helmet on. I was copping it whether I'd get sacked and stuff. But I think the players saw that, all right, he's not making excuses. He's still backing us. And I think that all paid dividends for me at the end, right, when I needed the players and the staff.

5:43Because that's the one thing you know and you would have known, Even you, Roy, when things aren't going well, if you've lost the dressing room, then you're gone. You go, I've got no chance here. But I never felt that. I always felt the dressing room is in the players and the staff. Always rock solid. And I think part of that was publicly I wasn't backing down, even though there was enough there for me to at least doubt what we were going to do. Do you feel like the press liked you? Because I always thought your interviews, no, I thought they'd come across like likeable. I did. I don't know about likeable.

6:16I think I divided opinion. Look, I think with me it's because I've had a unique path to here. It's taken me like 20 years. I mean, I think people literally sort of in this side of the world anyway found out about me maybe when I was at Celtic, but more two years ago. And when you get to sort of a certain age like me, I can't pretend to be anybody but who I am. So what you saw in public is who I am in sort of private. I'm the same kind of person. You know, I'm not trying to, because I just don't feel the need now to try and sell myself or try and portray something I'm not. So, and that sometimes, you know, rubs people up the wrong way.

6:56Because if somebody, you know, had a crack at me, I'd have a crack back. That's the perception, Angel, in someone's journey or whatever way you've come. And some people then would look at managers going, they don't deserve a big job. No, that's right, yeah, yeah. Because they'd only focus on what you've done at Celtic, obviously. But you go, no, if you look back, somebody, whether you rate different leagues or whatever country, you've managed hundreds and hundreds of games. So the perception might have been, I don't know, like some of the media, did you warrant this job or did you warrant that?

7:19And you're having battles from day one. No, you're spot on. And I guess my view was, well, whatever you think about where I've come from, you can't not say that I haven't worked bloody hard at it to get to here. Because I didn't get to here because of my reputation or my sort of network of people that I could tap into on this side because no one knew me. So the only reason I've got here is because of the work I've done. At some point somebody's recognised something I've done and said, OK, give him an opportunity. So I take pride in that. I've worked my backside off to get here. I haven't had an easy ride.

7:58It's taken me 27, 28 years to get here and I love that. I love the fact that I've had... But for some people it's like, well, hold on a sec. You haven't earned your stripes, so to speak, to be able to, say, take a job like Tottenham on. Do you think there's a little bit of a... Because you maybe, and I think this about sometimes maybe American managers come to England. Do you think there's something about being from actually Australia, this thing about like knowing the game or football? Because there's been, I think definitely managers, I think probably in the last 10 or 15 years have come over from America and basically has taken out to them a little bit about like American football and soccer, you know, that type of thing.

8:31Do you think there's something about that? Yeah, absolutely. Well, the reality of it is, and I could be wrong, but apart from myself, Jesse Marsh and Bradley, I don't think anyone else outside of Europe, South America, is coached in the Premier League or in the English First Division. So there is a little bit of... Look, I understand that. Who's going to... I've come from Australia. I said, I know about cricket and I know about rugby and kangaroos or whatever else you want to do. But football's not supposed to... It's almost like they take it as an affront, an insult, that somebody from Australia is going to come and coach in our top league no, I'm sorry, you haven't earned that right.

9:13So there is a bit of that. And there still is, I think, a little bit of that. But again, I don't take that. I just think, well, you know, people don't know what they don't know. And I take it, like I said, for me, I think it's a strength because I've worked my way up as I keep, I try literally from the factory floor to get to where I am now. And I take pride in that. Andrew, I interviewed, last question on this before we go back and look at, you know, sort of your journey and where you came from. Last week I interviewed Virgil van Dijk and he made a point that he felt that ex-players were too critical and that the current players were impacted by that enormously.

9:50Did you feel that at Tottenham or at Celtic that you felt when, you know, pundits, broadcasters, journalists were very critical of ex-players, sorry, of the current players, that it did get to them, that it did impact them? Look, that's been around forever and a day, right? You know, I'm sure when you guys were playing, they used to have those, remember you used to get ratings out of ten or out of five. You'd pick up the paper, oh, I've got a three. And you'd get, oh, come on, mate. So that's always been there. The difference now is just the saturation of it, right? And I feel for young people as much as young players in today's world.

10:26It's really tough. I don't think they're more sensitive. It's just that... The volume. The volume. That's it, right. And it's very hard. People say, well, get off social media. Well, it's easy to say, and for somebody in my generation, yeah, it's easy. But I don't know, if I was young today, maybe I'd be on social media all the time. I mean, I know you were active on X, right? Now, imagine... The bandit comes... No, I've been told. Anyway. But if that was around when you were a player, right, I reckon you're the kind of character who'd go, I'm going to have a bite back at this guy. But you can't because it comes back to your tenfold and it distracts you from what's happening.

11:09So I think what Virgil's saying is that maybe today's players don't understand or ex-players don't understand exactly how much that criticism or whatever it is gets amplified in today's world and what that fuels. I still think you have to have criticism. You have to have scrutiny. If somebody's not playing well or makes a mistake, whether it's a manager or a player, you need to be called out because that's how you improve. And there wouldn't be a player or manager on earth who says, well, actually, you know, when they're by themselves, that he's right, I'm mucked up there. But it's just the saturation of it, it does affect young people.

11:44So do you think the current generation of players will become pundits? Do you think they'll have a better sense or grasp of what you're actually talking about? Because you're talking about us, we didn't actually go through that. Maybe, or maybe it goes the other way, which I've found as I've seen a couple that have just come out of it, who try and become even more sensationalistic, if that's a word, to get traction because they know what's going to get them headlines because they know how it works. But some players take it well. We had obviously Madison at Spurs, didn't we? Yeah, yeah. And I gave him plenty still.

12:17And they gave it back to you. Yeah, yeah. That's how it should be. That was after the final, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's a really mature guy. He takes it. He does understand it. But a lot of them, and I'm sure you guys, they're very young, mate. I look at them and I just think, in life terms, they're very young people that still got so much to learn and try and understand. It's not just them, it's the people around them because they say, oh, get off social media. And then somebody in their network will say, oh, did you hear what he said about you? Have a crack back. And you'll go. But when I was like 35, I was playing with like 17-year-olds and you could not tell them to get off social media.

12:54Like for us, we probably can because we've had periods of our life without it, but it is their life. Like you can't tell them to get off it. It's almost, I think when we were playing, it was the papers, wasn't it? Yeah. What someone said in the paper. I don't think players are probably that fussed about almost the papers now. It's what's on the phone, isn't it? It's the first thing they grab when they get into the rooms. Yeah, exactly. It's the phone. Let's see what's... I don't understand it, mate. Don't start me on a rant about technology. We'll be here all day. Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing.

13:28This advertisement is brought to you by Huel. What's happening, Kieran? How we doing, Gary? Good, how are you, mate? Your team is struggling. My team are bouncing towards the Champions League. They're bouncing towards the Champions League because they made a massive change. Well, changing manager, changing direction, changing trust, changing everything. Changing system, changing atmosphere. But I've stayed the same with my drink. That's what Liverpool are doing. We're staying the same and trusting the process. It's going to get better. You're starting putting those fancy words out. trusting. There's no more clearer sign of a club struggling than when they say they're trusting the process.

14:03Why? It's going to get better, isn't it? Imagine if United got rid of Fergie in the early years and didn't trust the process. Sorry, you got rid of Jurgen Klopp. I did think that was a big problem at the time, but actually the guy that came in won the league for you, you know what I mean? Now you're all turning on him. You know what I mean? I'm not turning on him. Oh, you've turned him a little bit. I am about making positive changes, Gary. Have you changed your drink? I've not changed To be fair, I've changed back. I was a Huel Light person for the start of the year when I start my running again.

14:33It stops being icy and I like to have this after so that I can also have it with my breakfast as opposed to the meal replacement. I'm sticking on the meal replacement. I like the meal replacement stuff. I just love the vanilla black edition. It's steady, sturdy. 35 grams of protein. It is. And 26 essential vitamins and minerals. Low sugar. Can't go wrong. Get our special offer on all the Huel range. New customers get our exclusive discount plus a free gift at Huel.com forward slash The Overlap. Get on there and buy a bit of Huel.

15:13Going back to the very beginning. I met you guys 26 years ago, you know. You too? Australia. Is it Australia? Wow. In Brazil. Oh, yeah. Is that when you went for that FA Cup game? Oh, that's when I give them goals away. What game was it? So World Club Championships, right? So Man U pulled out of the FA Cup. Global news for this inaugural World Club Championships. And we were the representatives from Oceania. Semi-pro. In fact, I think one of the papers had our striker, because he worked at a gas station, petrol station during the day, like filling the car with petrol, saying, you know, Man United pull out of FA Cup to play against petrol pumpers or something.

15:58So we've gone to this, and like I said, we were semi-pro. And for us it was unbelievable. We were flying business class. We've never flown business class. Staying in an unbelievable hotel overlooking Copacabana Beach. And obviously we played Vasco da Gama, but the last game was against you guys. And I remember the day before we'd train an Americaner and it was falling apart, but what a stadium and historic and finished training and I've got the boys there. I said, look, I know you all want to get their shirts and get photos, but we're going to go out there and beat them tomorrow. Don't give them respect.

16:33If you're going to grab a shirt, make sure you've made them work hard for it. And as I'm talking to him, I can see, you know, he's saying they're not looking at me. You guys are all coming out. You guys are coming out. I've got no chance. And I'll tell you the story about Roy. You won't mind me saying it, but after the game, our guys just were desperate for shirts. Our little number seven literally man-marked Becks for the last 15 minutes, even though he was totally out of position just to make sure with a full-time whistle. Not me or Nev. No, I was Becks. Sorry, Roy. Beckham shirt. And then after the game, a couple of our guys, drug control got them, so they missed out.

17:07So then they've gone into the rooms after and they've gone to the man-your-room and they've said to a couple of the guys, I won't mention who, can we have small shirts? And they said no. And Roy grabbed them and said, give him your shirt, will you? Mate, they couldn't speak higher of Roy. Seriously. Seriously. It did. It's nice to hear a nice story about Roy. That's nice that you did that, though. I'll tell you, the impression that made on our players, my players, right, they said you wouldn't believe it. Roy Keane told them to... Yeah, standards. And did they do it? Yeah, they did. So just going through this, Anjan, just obviously you know this, but it says a migrant from near Philadelphia, Athens, raised in Melbourne, your father Demetrius, known in Australia as Jim, was a carpenter in Athens.

17:55At the time, Greece was under the grip of a right-wing military junta. At uncertain times, the posticoglues migrated to Melbourne, where Andrew was five years old at the time. And your dad wandered the streets with just a mattress and his trade and picked up labouring work wherever he could. And basically, this is a quote from you, people say they moved for a better life, but my parents didn't have a better life. They moved so I could have one. You have to be in that situation to see how dehumanising and then disempowering it is. A vulnerable man only able to go as far as language could take him.

18:23That was the Greek community. And then there's a picture of you with your immigration number. Immigration number. So we went over on a boat 30 days. On the boat? 30 days. And it wasn't the love boat, trust me. It was 30 days and, you know, sometimes I blow up and we're flying business class with the kids at the moment, right? So I'm thinking 30 days. But it was only when I got older. because, like, you know when you're a kid, and I'm sure you, like, we didn't grow up, we had nothing, but I had such a happy childhood. I felt I had such a happy childhood. I was outside all the time in Australia.

18:56I was playing football, cricket, you know, Australian rules, whatever. So I didn't realise just how tough it must have been for my parents, you know. And I often think, you know, and the reason I say this, when people talk about immigrants, they think, oh, they're coming here and they're taking our jobs. I get that. I understand why people are sort of protective around it, but, you know, most immigrants who come over, the first generation, they don't have a better life. I'm convinced my parents would have had a better life back in Greece, even if they were struggling, because they would have been surrounded by family, friends, things they knew, you know, the language to help.

19:33So I can just imagine, like I said, it only sort of hit me when I got older, just how tough it must have been for my father and my mother to go into... They knew nothing about Australia. You couldn't Google what's Australia back then. They didn't speak the language. You know, we didn't have... We lived in a house, shared a house with other people up until I was about 10 years old. All the things that you kind of take for granted, we didn't have, but they never let it affect me. You know, I was happy. I was kind of assimilating in Australian society. And the only thing he tried to make sure with me was...

20:09Because I hardly saw him. Like, I'd be up for breakfast. He'd be already at work. He'd come home late at night after working. He'd literally plonk himself on the couch for half an hour and he'd fall asleep on the couch. I never had any interaction with my father. But he loved football. And I think in his mind he sort of said, look, I don't know this country. I don't understand it. I'm going to put my son in an environment that I do understand. That was a football environment. It was a Greek club at the time. So at least I know that kids he's hanging around with are all going to come from similar backgrounds to what we did.

20:43And it was a kind of, say, the football became a little bit of a safety net, but also a source of comfort for not just my parents, like immigrants of that time. And was there a big group, great community in Australia at that time? Yeah, it was really big. It kind of, at the time, Australia was looking for skilled labour from, so there was, and the only reason we went there, they would sponsor families to come across. They would offer you housing and sort of employment. no promise of anything else. And Greece is one of the countries that they're kind of... And there was a strong Greek community in Melbourne, which helped us for sure in terms of, like I said, just a source of comfort because, you know, I always say there was two places of worship on a Sunday.

21:27It was the church in the morning and there was the football in the afternoon where my dad and my mum could go and feel totally at ease again, away from the week's kind a grind of not speaking the language, trying to get the simplest things done in the best way they could for their kids. And how was football over there then, in terms of the level, just treating? Because obviously cricket's the sort of big sport. You've got Aussie rules. Aussie rules, yeah. Aussie rules, especially in Melbourne, is everything, cricket's everything. And like I said, my dad just didn't like it, mate. I took him to cricket once, because I love cricket.

22:00I took him to a test match, and it was Australia, England, Ashes, but Chris Tabaret was batting. Chris Tabaret. Oh, my gosh. And my dad was sitting there. He left over the line. And my dad, back then, he smoked. He went to light up his cigarette and he dropped his lighter and he went, bent down, as he bent down the wicket, there was a wicket. He goes, no, dad, it was a wicket. He missed it. He goes, we're going home. So football was very much, you know, really not a community. It was semi-pro and it turned into kind of, it was the first code that went national in Australia because Australia is a massive country, as you know.

22:35So before Aussie rules, before rugby, football went national, but it was very much driven by the migrant communities. So it was limited to that, like so-called mainstream Australia just didn't accept football. It was the sport of the immigrant, basically. So it wasn't professional. It wasn't all-encompassing. So if you were passionate about it like I was, I became, we had to sort of forage and try and find any kind of content we could from this side of the world to sustain us because it just wasn't enough. It wasn't in the papers. It wasn't on TV. So you tried to build it, but it wasn't. It's always battled against the dominance of the other sports.

23:20When did that change? What was the sort of big change for? Because obviously, you know, Viduka came over here, Harry Kuhl came over here and it's sort of at that point producing serious players. When was the moment where... It kind of never sort of made the advances, but I think sort of around Vaduka, Timmy Cale, Harry, those kind of guys were coming through. They got really organised at institute level. What Australia's always been good at, it's always produced champion sportsmen in every sport, right? So it's always had good development programs and they started a program in sort of Canberra, Australian Institute of Sport, and literally they turned it into a full-time program for developing footballers.

23:59So the Dukes came out of that. Brett Emerson came out of that. A lot of the players who ended up on this side of the world came out of that system. But the top tier of the sport, a lot of those guys never played in Australia at the top level. They left before. Harry left when he was a teenager. Timmy left when he was a teenager. So they didn't really play. So the top level has never really changed. It's always been a third to fourth tier sport still to today. But there was a period there without... And again, sort of fuelled by the migrant communities. Like Dirk's will tell you, it was the Croatian community in Melbourne that made him the player he was.

24:33His dad and his uncles and his cousins, and they just lived and breathed football 24-7, you know, and he becomes the player he becomes. I'm interested to know, you've got obviously, because obviously I'm a massive fan of cricket and I play cricket with Matthew Hayden and Mark Taylor, and I always think of the Australians of having the toughest mentality in sport, like unbelievable, like strong mentalities. do you carry sort of that strong mentality from the Australian side but also a little bit of maybe the passion of the Greek sort of side as well? What do you rely upon most? Yeah, I think it's perfectly sort of put together, Gary, that I do have the passion that the Greeks hold for football but it's the Australian competitiveness who, in any sport we compete in, we're the underdogs, so to speak.

25:16But, you know, we've produced champion golfers, tennis players, swimmers, athletes, basketballers, you name the sport, we've pretty much gone to the top of everything, including football. And I think that's because of the sporting mentality in the country. Especially when I was growing up, sort of 70s, 80s, sport was everything. We would not be inside at all, mate. Daylight savings time in Australia was 9 o 'clock at night. It was still day. You literally had to be dragged in by your mum for dinner at 9 o 'clock. We would be, from the moment we got home at 3 o 'clock until 9 o 'clock, six hours of sport outside.

25:55Whether that was cricket, football, Aussie rules, whatever it was. And you were competing in the neighbourhood against older kids, younger kids, and that competitive nature. And I think it's a little bit of that Australian sort of mentality of no fear, you know, we can take anybody on. That I've definitely had, I feel like I've had inside me along the journey I've been on. When I was looking back at sort of the stuff, You hear names like Di Stefano, Puskas, and they don't really exist to us. They're like myths, but like Ferenc Puskas. It's mad, mate. It's crazy. Just talk to us about him and your sort of journey with him.

26:31It's madness, mate. He rocks up in Melbourne. Just bizarre. One of the greatest players in the world ends up in Melbourne somehow. And I don't know how it happened and why it happened. And so he ends up coaching us for three years. And at the time, he didn't speak it. How old was you at the time, mate? I was 23, 23. And he didn't speak a word of English. But he spoke a little bit of Greek because he'd coached Pernathinaikos to a Champions League final at Wembley against Ajax. So he spoke a bit of Greek. And I was captain, even though I was young. I was captain. And he just locked into me. He goes, all right, you're going to help me with my team talks.

27:14So I had the worst car in the world. and I used to pick up one of the greatest players. It's like picking up Bex, you know, I don't know, whatever kind of car, because I drive a Bentley now.

27:28I forgot your roots. At least you're honest. So, and I didn't think, and he was one of the greatest teachers in my life, not just the, because I used to ask him endless questions about football. What was it like playing against England at Wembley? What was it like scoring hat-tricks in European Cup finals for Real Madrid? Hungary getting to a World Cup final. I used to pester him and he was the most humbled bloke, mate. No tickets on himself and he'd just tell me the greatest stories and the most humble. And you go, that's a lesson in life because he rubbed off on me, not because he was a legend but because just the man he was more than the player he was.

28:11You know, just the way – and he coached us for three years and he hated – Kerry, you would have loved him because he hated defending, mate. You would have torn him apart. He didn't like tactics. He goes, all I want is wingers. The wingers, don't come back like beyond the halfway line. Stay on the halfway line. I was a fullback. I had five players running at me. The winger stays up there. I said, Ange, don't worry. You get the ball, give it to him. You've done your job, you know. And he just loved attacking football. He goes, I want us to win 5-4. I don't care if we've got four goals. We win 5-4.

28:44I don't want nil-nil. He goes, don't worry if we lose. And he just, for a whole three years, we were a young group, so really impressionable. And we ended up winning the league in the second year he was there. But we had so much fun, mate. Like training was fun. Like playing was fun. We didn't care about losing. We concede a goal. Don't worry. Just get the ball. We'll try and score the other end. And I loved that. And it must have made an imprint because it drives my football today. Not totally, but I'm thinking playing with that fear and giving players the freedom and joy of what football's about, there's something in that, you know.

29:20And it's interesting. You said I was going to get to what you just said then at the end. And I think of my influences when I was a player. I've never been a manager, but we sort of thought on the game. And a lot of them are influenced, aren't you, by people you look up to or you think of your best coach as your manager. So do you think that's where that comes from in terms of, if people are going to talk about your team, it would be a case if they're going to win or lose, it's going to be 3-2 or 4-3 rather than 1-0? Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think I've said that. I said, I really love my team scoring goals.

29:49You know, I think that's... And, you know, whenever you start talking that way, people say, oh, you know, the proper way to football, the right way. There's no right or wrong way. but I do love the joy that goals and attacking football because that's, again, that's my father's influence in the 70s. He'd get me up and we'd watch Liverpool and he loved Leeds because they had Eddie Gray and Peter Lorimer and, you know, he loved teams. He loved Johan Cruyff, the 74 World Cups, my first sort of World Cup I remember, and he loved the Dutch. So all those things had an influence on me and I was Liverpool mad, right?

30:30I was Liverpool obsessed. But when Kenny came to 77, it went to another level for me. I'll tell you the story. I became totally obsessed with him and my dad loved him because he was just a special player. It wasn't about he was physically strong or quick or he just had a bit of magic, you know, and he kept talking to me about the magic. and when, and my dad passed away sort of eight years ago so he passed away when I was in Japan so he missed the final part of my journey sort of Celtic and obviously Tottenham and the Premier League but yeah, when I got to Celtic obviously there was a connection with Kenny but then when we played, when I was at Tottenham the first year we played at Anfield I promised myself that he always gets to the ground a bit earlier I always like to go for a walk on the pitch really early because there's no one in the stands to abuse you at that time.

31:27So you can kind of just relax, take it all in. But I remember I promised myself, I said, look, you know, I'm going to walk through the tunnel beneath the sign just for my dad. Just, you know, we kind of made it. Mate, I'm about, and I'm so focused on it too. I hear this, hey, Ange. And I turn around and it's... It's Kenny. It's Sir Kenny. And he starts talking to me about Celtic. And I'm like, I'm six years old again. I'm not 60, I'm six, right? And I'm talking to him and, yeah, I love that. It's a great club, Kenny. And he goes, oh, well, I hope you lose today. And then he sort of walked off.

32:04And I walked and I thought, and in that moment I've got, I've just walked through the Anfield Tunnel with Kenny Dalgleish, the guy that I had on my walls. Now, you call it pure coincidence or divine intervention, whatever it is, but that kind of, for me, is always the foundation of why I do what I do. So, you know, if people are questioning me about my football, I'm sorry, you're not going to change me. This is not something new. I know I've been copying Pep in the last few years.

32:41I've had this inside me since I was a kid. You're not going to change me. This is what I want. This is what I love. This is what I'm passionate about. This is what I can get people to believe in. I can't pretend to be something else. If I could, I would, but it isn't going to work. If you ask me to go out on the weekend and just produce a 1-0, I did it in the Europa Cup final, but I can't do that sustainably. It's not me. It's not who I am. Maybe Pep's copied you. There's a quote here that says, my motivation is always to produce teams my dad would enjoy watching. And obviously, are they the two biggest influences on your football career?

33:19Without a shadow of a doubt. as a person and in footballing sense. Yeah, that's where the roots of who I am as a person. Because, again, I said my dad sat around and gave me advice on life because I never saw him. But, boy, did I work, did I understand the value of hard work. Yeah, so I made sure that, you know what, I'm going to outwork anyone else in what I do. I'm passionate about football. I'm lucky. You know, I think all of us would say that we don't think we work for a living. I think I feel blessed that I don't see it as a job. but I'm going to work harder than anyone else. I got that from my dad, you know, that he made those sacrifices.

33:54So it's much about life but definitely the football. You know, I've always been attracted. I mean, I visited Old Trafford and I remember, you know, watching you guys play and I remember Giggsie picking the ball up on the halfway line and running down the wing and I remember the people just standing up as he's running down the wing. That's magic. That's, like, that's, I love that and that's what I tap into when I'm trying to create teams. Don't get me wrong, I love winning. This is not at the expense of winning trophies, but the way you do it matters to me. It's important to me because that's what I believe in.

34:33When you first went to Spurs, obviously you're absolutely right, but we haven't seen too much of you, particularly your teams, maybe a bit of Celtic, but not too much. Within that first few months, what was clear? that there was a style instilled into a team that, to be fair, is bloody difficult to play. I think, actually, we said that, I think, in the first couple of weeks, Monday Night Football. It's bloody difficult to play that way. Your demands on players to actually... Yeah, I remember your demands on Porro and Ndoggi when they were going into those midfield positions. Where does... Because you're talking here about what I would call sort of, like, expressive throw-the-kitch-at-the-sink-at-it football.

35:08But what you do is more than that. I mean, you're talking about sort of how to play out from the... Where's that bit come from, the tactical bit? That's just my obsession with the game, mate. Like I said, I'll outwork anyone. I just am a voracious reader and taken in. I can watch a game of football as a coach. I can watch it as a fan. But if there's a game on, I'll watch it. I'm just obsessed with the game. And you're always picking up stuff. I went and watched Como play Milan a couple of weeks ago. And Cesc is doing a great job there and doing things a little bit differently. You go, oh, I haven't seen that before.

35:42you know and and so there's always that element but you have to put that into a practical sense as well you know because ultimately I'm not the one doing it it's the players don't matter what my ideas are I've got to make sure the players can do it and I'm going to give them the platform and the information for them to be able to execute what I want so you know once you get the idea you go back a step okay how can we construct this through training through whatever other sort of and the tools you have these days, you've got so much ability to give information to players visually or training. So a lot of it's just the obsession with a game and I've always been curious about what's next and what you can do, but always never leaving that thread or that lane of this is the football I want to play.

36:31Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. The Super 6 Golden Game has landed with the potential of a doubling the jackpot each weekend in February. If Chelsea beat Burnley this weekend, the£250 ,000 jackpot will become£500 ,000. It's completely free to play. All you've got to do is predict six scores and you could be walking away with life-changing money. 18 plus TNCs apply.

37:04I remember something you said when you came in. It was very early on. I think the first ten games, you were top of the league. We were talking about the football you were playing and players in different positions. You said something, and I always think when a manager talks about his style of play, and then sometimes a manager will say, I haven't got the players to do that. I think you said, did you say that was a cop-out? Yeah, I do. Yeah, you believe that's a cop-out. And so in terms of your idea about how to play, if you went into a club, I don't think there's a right-off. No, no, there isn't.

37:41It's a cop-out in the sense that I think if you believe in something, if you're a vegetarian, you're not popping into Maccas because you're hungry, mate. If you believe in something, you work with the players you have, and maybe they can't do it, but you're still working with them to get to that point, is my point. I don't get it when managers say, well, you know what, I really want to play position and every team I've watched them manage, well, you don't. Yeah. But own it. That's OK. There's no right or wrong way. Own that that's what you do and you do it very well. But don't say, oh, if I was at Man City, I'd play differently.

38:18No, I'm sorry. That doesn't work because I'm sure whatever team Pep coached along the way when he was at Barcelona B or whatever, and maybe he's not a good example because he's always been at sort of top clubs, but those kind of managers, they've always coached the same way. The only reason I wanted to mention is because I've always had what you've just said then, that idea of, not an idea of how to play. There's this thing in football where managers, it's almost, people are embarrassed to say, oh, don't like the tag of being a long ball manager. You just said before there's different ways to win and there's no right or wrong.

38:51I totally agree with that. I'd love a manager to just come out and say, I do play direct football. I'm not embarrassed about it the reason I play it is because when I was a player my influence was this it makes me keep a team in the Premier League and you know what I get a few quits at the end of it as a little bonus and I've got me like but there's almost this thing that everyone's fighting each other to say I don't play long ball is it a long ball is it a long pass it's like we watch your teams play the stats are there there's no problem but everyone's got this thing about like I don't want to be seen as a long ball manager there's different ways to play football sometimes you can watch direct football and it's exciting it's balls in the box And with you, it manages almost this thing that no one wants to say what I do.

39:31And then it's, but I haven't got the players. And I'm like, I don't. And it works the other way too. Whereas as soon as you say, and I think Arnie said it a couple of weeks ago, where he says, it's important that my team, I want my teams to play. But when you say that, that means you don't want to win. Yeah, he got slaughtered for it. And that's wrong as well. He wants to play that, but he wants to win as well. So it's almost like if you want to win, you actually have to play direct sort of no-risk football or your other end of the extreme. But no-one wants to own the direct no-risk football because apparently that's not, you know, everyone's cup of tea or whatever it is.

40:06But some of the greatest managers in the world, you look at Antonio, you know, Jose, Diego Simeone, like, they'll own it. You know, like I said, I watched Allegri play against, you know, Milan play against Como. Mate, they had three chances. They scored three goals. They won 3-1. and Cess had 20 chances in school. Mate, he was owning it. He said after the game, he goes, yeah, they can have the position, they can have the chances, but we won. The problem that's thrown at managers, unfortunately, sometimes when they're talking about this, is as if then you don't have a plan B. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're playing longboard, but then you start losing, oh, he's not got another plan.

40:40So that's what's thrown at managers, I think, a lot as well, unfortunately. I was just going to say, you're going to need players that are physically fit, aren't you, to play your way. So if you haven't got a team with them at Rebutes, would you still, you know, if you're going into a job? Because that would kill your way of playing, wouldn't it? Yeah, Julianne, to be honest, the Premier League nowadays, you have to be anyway. I mean, it's the one biggest change I've noticed even the two years I've been in it, that the physicality of teams now is just at a ridiculous level. But, yeah, that is part of the process of, you know, why I said I always win things in my second year and why it's happened that way.

41:22The first year is always about trying to build that, trying to bring in players who'll fit what I'm trying to do, trying to train the players up. Because the physical capacity you can actually train up. You know, we went from, you know, Antonio's famous for having like two, two-and-a-half-hour tactical sessions where the guys are out there all the time at Tottenham, and I've come in and we do 60, 70 minutes of high-intensity training, some of the guys struggle. It was only natural. But I had a pre-season where we could sort of work on that. And even after that, you know, you could see that it was going to take a year.

41:55I mean, Jürgen, when he first went into Liverpool, I think the first year he had a lot of injuries and guys struggling with it. So because the demands. But again, through training, I think the physical side is probably the easiest side to address because if you – the old adage of you play the way you train. If you train at a certain intensity and at a certain tempo, I think that can be replicated in games. But is that not why it's so difficult, say, when you go in at Forest and you've got this style of play, everybody knows your style of play, and you haven't even had a pre-season, you haven't got time to bring in your players?

42:28That's why I always say, like, to change standards every single day to create your team. That's what a manager needs time, don't you? That's what I mean. It's like Bielsa. When Bielsa went into Leeds at first, it took him a while and people said he's doing double sessions, they're playing killer ball. And then they get results. The players were loving it. Double sessions, we love it. Then they started losing. Training's too hard. We're getting our days off. And then the next manager comes in and goes, oh, it's a lot better, you know. We're playing a lot freer and it's not as structured and all that kind of stuff.

42:58And look, I mean, there's not much to talk about the Forest thing because this programme will last longer than my tenure. Yeah, stop it. But that was, the whole fight, that was on me, right? That was, I think you said, beware of kind of what you wish for. That was a bad decision by me to go in there. And I've got to take ownership. There's no point in me blaming that I didn't get time or anything. I should never have gone in there. It was too soon after Tottenham. I was taken over at a time where, you know, obviously I'm going to do things differently, that they were kind of used to doing things a certain way.

43:30And I've got to cop that. That was my mistake. it's no one else's fault. Did you have anyone saying to you, Andrew? Yeah, everyone around me. They were saying that? Yeah, but it was the first time I wasn't working in 20-odd years. And I was lost, you know. In the off-season, I was lost. Usually in the off-season, you go away with your family, but there's transfers, there's pre-season. So your mind's... And I was lost. They're a good group of players as well, Andrew, though. Some good players there. That's the only thing that sucked me in. Yeah, Gibbs, White, Anderson. You're thinking, I could work with that.

44:01Anderson, top player. And, you know, working with him, you realise that's what I thought, you know what, I stripped everything back about... Because really, when you go into a club, most of the time that club wants change. The reality of it is I think they were reluctant to get rid of Nuno. It was only because of, I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but there was no way they would have sacked Nuno after last year. so you're not walking into an environment a playing group where they're really looking for change so from that point of view I was thinking to myself well yeah but with that group of players I reckon I can turn them around pretty quickly and we had a couple of games that could have gone our way but you know we again strategically like I'm the worst decision maker sort of in terms of that time around for my career, but we had four away games, my first four away.

45:01We only had our games, I think I had three at home. We just never got any traction, and it's no wonder the supporters never took to me that even the players were kind of... Why was that, Ange? I think... Was it Nuno? Maybe, I think a bit of that. I think my life theory is that I was still too close to Tottenham. They were still seeing me as the Tottenham manager, and I think there's some merit in that. You need to leave some space for people just to process everything. But I just wanted to work, mate. Like I said, I saw a group of players. I thought, you know what, they're in Europe, Europa League.

45:35We might have another crack at that. Was it Sunderland at home you played? Was it Sunderland that was games? You missed chances. I remember those games. A manager would be back at London's career and go, the chances you missed against Sunderland that day. Even the cup game in England. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were 2-0 up against Swansea. Yeah, Swansea were 2-0 up. Just get over the line in them games and you get, I always think if a manager going in, whatever, there might be hang-ups, but if you get that little bit of momentum, if you don't get it to start, you are up against it. Yeah, that's what happened at Tottenham.

45:59I mean, the first 10 games, I needed those. If I had started my season like I did the second year, or say like Thomas started this year, I would have been gone. There's no way I would have survived at Tottenham. But we got off to a fly the first 10 games and that kind of – and you need to, especially, like I said, when I didn't have a lot of skin in the game in terms of people saying, well, he's got a body of work that we already know. I had to prove myself. But you know when you speak to Spurs, I'm interested when managers go in and you're speaking to maybe Spurs or Forrest. And you know also, particularly with Forrest, when I have my first sticky patch, that might come after a month, the owners got previous there.

46:35I always think for some managers, and I know people want to go back to work, but it must be awkward shaking hands with somebody going, as soon as I have a bad spell, I'm out the door. No, you're right. You're right, but it's just, I don't know. Like I said, it's not like I had enough people around me like yourself, Roy, who were saying the same things. But I have to take ownership of that. I made a decision that I got, like I said, there was a combination of not working and a group of players. I thought, you know what, I think I can do something here that blinded me to the reality of it was that it was never going to work out.

47:09Because even if I'd won a couple of those games, long term it was never going to work out. You know, they changed sporting directors when they were in there as well. So there was instability in the club anyway. And to be honest, I don't think they wanted what I had to offer because, you know, the owner, you can say what you want about him, but they probably wouldn't be in the Premier League unless he took over the club for us, right? But he just wants to win. He doesn't care how he wins. Yeah, but surely a manager must be. And it's not just at Forest. And I'm looking at other managers that are going to a club.

47:40and you go so you're shaking hands and managers talk about they want to I'm not using the word project because that's you know but sometimes you want to say I want to try and build something for 2, 3, 4, 5 years like previously but you're meeting somebody and you're not going to get that opportunity do you see it as a business thing well I could be gone here in 12 do managers now go listen that's the game I'm in now I won't be getting 2, 3, 4 years nah I'll be gone as soon as I lose 3, 4, 5 games on this spin like it's happened to Spurs now with Thomas Frank I think that's the reality why don't the club say to him we're going to a sticky patch you're new into the club you're getting used to the players are getting used to your ways of playing like you said in the first year or two clap at Liverpool but certain managers go no no as soon as it's bad you're out the door it's like you know it's fear you know there's so much there's so much money in the game now people clubs are fearful losing Premier League status they're fearful of missing out on Champions League they're fearful some are fearful of getting into Europe because of what it means that we don't have the squad to cope to deal with it so So this fear overrides everything else that it constricts and doesn't allow them to say, well, like I said, every manager will go through a sticky patch, you know, unless you're really, really fortunate and you've got the resources to overcome that.

48:53And in many respects, you have to go through a sticky patch because that's how you find out about people. When you start losing, you find out about the bloke over there and him over there and that player. What are they doing when things aren't going well? What are the fans like? So you need to go through that, live through that. It's what I say, I mean, it's still the one that kind of, you know, with Spurs we did all that. We went through the tough bit. We got the reward at the end. And I'm going, I had those players in the palm of my hands now because we went through the tough bit. It wouldn't have been any harder than it was last year and we had success.

49:24There's something to build. And yet I think fear kicks in of, oh, yeah, but, you know, we finished 17th or whatever. You know, we can't have another season like that. And I think it's fear that drives it. And I don't know what manager now will get that time because even if you're a high-profile manager, you know, and you get afforded a little bit more, I still think clubs are going to be ruled by the intense scrutiny. I question a lot the people who make these decisions because more often than not, the people who make these decisions are very, very successful people. Some of the most successful people in the world own football clubs.

50:06but they've done it away from the public eye. They've done it away from scrutiny. I think you did the interview with Sir Jim, and he was surprised that kind of the criticism and the blowback he was getting. And they're not used to it. You know, they have a shareholders meeting once a year, and they get scripted to death about which questions because they're so fearful. And they buy a football club, and all of a sudden, oh, my God. We're used to it. We know. like we live we've lived it since we played that's the volatility so you need really strong people to say no no don't worry about it this will pass we need to go through this to get to where we want to but which clubs will do that these days I'm not really sure Andrew was it a case of I mean it's not the first time it's happened where a club that's maybe got into Europe they could have got into the Champions League they've probably outpunched their weight but the football maybe is a little bit more stiff than the owner would like and i've been an owner that sat there and you do want entertainment and you want it all was it a classic we need to basically bring someone in who can basically improve the football and the quality of football and the entertainment was that the was that the objective was that the sort of clear conversation you had with the owner when you went in spurs yeah no no forest no that wasn't the conversation i was i thought it would be a classic same performance level same results sorry same results yeah more entertaining i thought we'd I didn't have, look, again, I look back and I'll go, what was I thinking?

51:38I didn't have extensive discussions with him about it, you know. Okay. And I should have, you know. That's what I should have done. But I've always been, you know what, get me in there and I'll show you. Yeah. You'll see it. You'll see it. From the first day, you will see it. The players will see it. The staff will see it. You'll feel it around the place, you know. And in the end, it was like, they're the discussions I sort of should have had. But like I said, it was just – and it's too easy for me to say, well, you know, I should have had more time or, you know, the owner made – it's on me. I made that decision knowing full disclosure exactly what I'm walking into and in the end obviously I was optimistic about what I could do but the worst case scenario sort of, yeah.

52:22Was there anything about saying to Tottenham, let me prove them wrong, let me go here and see if I can – was there any of that in your mind as well because you don't realise why did you take it? this is the thing I'm confused with when you say you know what I mean it's on me it's a big job doing it to be honest I mean look you should think it's not for me to advise you but I wouldn't be beating myself up if I was Ange because the reality is if you think you've got Gibbs White you've got Anderson you've got those two centre backs and you're in Europe and Nottingham Forest to be fair have invested quite a lot of money in those players you think I can go and work with a good group of players but as soon as I have a difficult spell what it would be after a week or a month you are gone because he's got previous for that you said it you said it get through a sticky patch well you said no to him didn't you Roy initially when you met with him you had that conversation I'd have to go on with Martin yeah of course yeah yeah and then I would do with Martin I regret it no I don't regret it that was a different experience and it's different being a manager to an assistant that was a different scenario don't bring that into it Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing I interviewed Mickey van der Ven, I don't know if you saw it, maybe about two months ago.

53:37And he was really impressive, which is an aside. But he said that, you talk about style, you did change. He said that you did change towards the cup final, towards the Europa League cup final with United. That you did go more defensive, you played more pragmatic. And the players had a conversation with you about that. Just talk us through that. Yeah, it's the old adage of, you know, success has many fathers and failure is an awful lot. Everyone contributed to the Europa. The league was all on me, by the way.

54:10That's totally on me, but the Europa, we all contributed to that. That is so true. No, look, I think... So my thought process around that was we kind of got to February. I think we were we just lost to Liverpool because we had a deep run in the Carabao Cup second leg and you know we won the first leg 1-0 but we were on fumes by then so I you know Liverpool batted us so I said we're out of the sort of Carabao Cup I said okay we're 16 points from relegation that isn't going to happen we've got a real narrow path to to winning something right for this football club which we know what that means but also Champions League, Champions League money.

54:57So, again, I'm obsessive about the game. I did a deep dive on, okay, who's won the Europa League in recent times? Unai's won it three times. Jose's won it. Oliver Glasner's won it. I think Diego's won it. Simeone. There's a thread through there of the kind of football because it's different from the Champions League. Champions League is a bigger variance of quality. The top teams in the Champions League to the bottom, massive. and you always get the best teams kind of winning it. In the Europa, it's not that much because, you know, the sort of teams from the Premier League compared to the teams that finish fourth or fifth in Germany or Spain, it's quite competitive.

55:39What I saw what they were doing, well, they were playing pretty risk-free, very, you know, strong defensive organisation. and if we could somehow create that model for the Europa League with the players I had, and key to that was Van Der Vyn and Romero, and, you know, I did have discussions with the players. I mean, I was being a bit sort of facetious about it, but, you know, I wanted them to buy into it because it was a little bit of a departure, but they were all in for it. I said, look, we need, this is the kind of football that will get us good, because I know cup football anyway is different from your league football.

56:17So we would train differently. We would prepare differently for... Now, people will say, why don't you do that in the league? Well, they were doing that in the league with Antonio for two years and they didn't like it. So that's not what the club wanted. But this was about the process of getting to winning a competition that sort of had a clear sort of strategy you could do it. So we did. And if you look at the final, I did a talk on it on the weekend. By the end of it, I'd put on Kevin Danzo, turned the back four into the back five. Then I think I'd put on Jed Spence. I think I had about seven defenders on there.

56:53And I was looking at the bench to see if there was any other defenders. I could hear my dad going, what are you doing? And, you know, we've got a line of about seven players on the edge of our box at one stage. But at the same time, I knew if we shut down Bruno, they weren't going to score. I just felt with United, the way they sort of set up with Ruben and the kind of ways they would try to break us down if we were really solid defensively. As long as we scored, we had to get a goal. We were still aggressive with our press. You know, that didn't change. But in terms of being a little bit more direct, yep, for sure, and a lot more sort of defensively rigid, that definitely happened.

57:34But that was because I, in my mind, I've gone, well, what a unique opportunity. And we know this works. I reckon we can replicate. You talk about having sort of seven defenders on the back line. I think probably one of the most... Chelsea? Yeah. One of the most, whatever the word you want to call it, bizarre or amazing things I've ever seen in football was when you had probably, what's it, do you have nine men? Nine. And it felt like you had everyone. On the half-iron. And on Monday Night Football, you know, you've got the group chat and you'd always have whatever your pitch is on the group chat.

58:07The pitch is that, because it's just something I've never seen in football where every single player on the pitch was in this sort of like this area. It was just like... I know. It was an unbelievable game. Was it 4-1 in the end? Your chances take, wasn't it? 2-1. Yeah, 2-1. We had one disallowed and then another one just missed to make it 2-2. And then they got two sort of ones at the end. And it was bizarre because a lot of it and sort of it was kind of... I was caught between two things. I got a lot of joy because it was the players driving it. They go, no, he wants us to play a high line. And it was turning into a foot race.

58:46We'd stand it halfway along. They play and off we go. And there's a clip, you know, you might get it on YouTube of Rinas-Michel Holland with Cruyff doing a ridiculous offside where they all just run to them. Have you seen it? I've loved that clip, right? And I've gone, this is my equivalent of that clip. But again, that was mostly driven by the players. I wasn't telling them to do it, but they had taken it literally what we're trying to do. And, you know, I think the worst thing about that game was that it kind of fed into exactly, all right, I've got these players now. I know that they're totally invested in what I'm telling them to do.

59:25But we lost Mickey Vandervin, we lost Madison Romero, your doggy, for weeks. And kind of our season derailed from there. But I think it was just a kind of evidence that the playing group had embraced because you could look really silly. And maybe in the end we did, we lost 4-1. But at the same time, it made an impact. I mean, I love stuff like that. I think, you know what, leave a footprint. Just leave a footprint. Even if it's a crazy one, just leave a footprint. That's definitely a footprint. There is something about that, Ange. and to be fair, we get sent our fixtures for Sky probably six weeks in advance.

1:00:05And I think I used to say this actually when you were the manager, if I got Tottenham games, I would be happy because I knew I'd see a good game of football. There's nothing worse than for us going to games and seeing a nil-nil. It's like, it drains you completely. But just going back to that Tottenham team, you must feel, talk to me about injuries at Spurs because they've had a lot of injuries this season without you as well. So to be fair, there must be some justification. But if you think about that team that you had, if you think about Porro, Adoghi, Van de Ven, Romero, Vesuma and Sarr, Kulishevsky, Son, Solanke and Maddison.

1:00:37You couldn't get that team, which I think that team would have done some serious damage. Probably the best young back four you could probably, if it stuck together, two really top-hand halves in potential terms. What was the injury situation? Why do Spurs get injuries under you? And why are they getting lots of injuries now? Because they're playing completely differently now. I can understand why the argument built under you. The demands physically under you are massive. Yeah, yeah. It's an interesting one, mate. I mean, I think we kind of had a look at it last year because, again, if I was ever going to present to the board at the end of last year, that's kind of to state my case for staying on.

1:01:18That's what I would have said is that I think when we had Van Der Vyn and Romero playing as a pair, our results over the two years would have had us top four in both years. Yeah. Just those two alone. than when you add the other four, but we rarely had them. Some of it was the way we played, for sure, and the way we trained. Some of it was, I think you've even seen it this year, the physical demands of the Premier League is so much bigger than other leagues. So even though van der Veen was coming from the Bundesliga, it's a whole different level. It takes some time to adjust physically. I think you've seen it with guys like Verts this year and others who top players, unbelievable players but it takes them a while so I think some of it was like I said they've gone from playing a different style of football training differently to what I was doing and the thing is if you look at those first 10 games the difference was we had I think we won quite a few games really late we had guys like Ivan Perisic Holberg Richarlison, Eric Dyke coming off the bench, like men.

1:02:27And you need that. So we covered that. But once we kind of lost that, like I said, the second year, we got even more injuries and they were getting replaced by teenagers. It's a curious one. I don't know. What was the internal analysis at the time? Because you will have looked at this closely, wouldn't you? Absolutely. There was one question directly. You may not want to answer it, I may want to answer it. but I went to a Tottenham Chelsea game last year and I got there and I was amazed when I saw the team sheet and Van de Ven and Romero both played. Yeah. And I couldn't believe it. I thought that's not going to go well because just knowing how important they were and then they both got injured within, I don't know, 40 minutes or 30.

1:03:07What happens there? Because that to me speaks to either a manager is ignoring his medical department or the medical department is saying to the manager they're fit to go and that's a big... Do you understand what I mean by that? No, no. Where's that? Yeah, I mean, I think... So that decision, kind of, Romero was always going to play, right? He sort of had a toe problem. So it wasn't a muscular problem. So he got over that. So he was always going to play. Mickey was due to come back the week after. But then I think midweek we lost Ben Davies and Dragosin, I think, was already gone. So we had the discussion, you know, as you do with the medical crew.

1:03:46Well, we think he would have been right next week. It's a week early. Again, in hindsight, I should have probably not risked him knowing how valuable he was. Now, we got hit with a perfect storm because then Romero does his quad. Not related. Like I said, Miki does. He was only due to play 60 minutes. But because Romero did his quad and went off early, I kept him on. I think he did it in the 70s. So you've got to take – again, I've got to take responsibility. They're my decisions. But it's kind of a fine line because you're still – you're playing Chelsea and you want to beat them. I mean, the whole thing on me is everyone's saying, well, I shouldn't have prioritised Europa instead of the league.

1:04:28But that's why I did it at the end. And we couldn't win the Europa unless I protected Mickey. And so by the end of it, I did. There were plenty of games that were both fit. I didn't play them because I needed them. When we played Frankfurt, if I didn't have Mickey and Kuti there, no way we would have been able to stop Bikertike. He was unbelievable for them. So it's that balance of we're trying to win a game of football here. Yeah. But also probably in hindsight is, well, we're going to take the pain of potentially another defeat because Chelsea are a top team for the greater good. But it's like Roy was saying before, do people internally understand that?

1:05:07Will they say, well, no, you've got to play your best team. But are them players saying to you in that moment as well because you know yourself if you're like a week away, you're like, I'm ready, I want to play, we'll play in Chelsea. And you do have a bit of that as well. Yeah, and Mickie was desperate to play, yeah, for sure. And he'd done everything in training. It's like he was training fully. But, you know, with his history and everything and how valuable he was to us, we, and like I said, by the time we came back the second time, we had a different strategy. But you do rely on your medical, I do anyway, I rely on my medical team a great deal.

1:05:39We made a lot of changes in there trying to find the right people. I don't think we got it, we got it totally right. But I think, you know, as a manager, I've always relied on the people around me to give me – our number one primary function as a manager is to make decisions. That's it. That's the be-all in it. You make decisions. When somebody comes – knocks on your door, they really come and say, hey, go on, Andrew, what did you do last night? They want a decision. What should we do at training? What do we do tomorrow? And the more decisions you can get right than wrong because you're not going to get a better chance of success.

1:06:13Yes. My view has always been I need as much information as possible so I can make a good decision. So I've always leant on the people around me with those kind of things. I want to ask a bit more about Van Der Ven and Romero. So in terms of just how good they can be, but specifically about Romero in the last couple of weeks, as captain, obviously he's shot from the hip, I think, with a couple of statements he's made publicly. But in matches, I think I said at the weekend, he flirts between sort of match-winning centre-back meets reckless liability. Where are you at with him in terms of sort of as a player?

1:06:44I love him, mate. You love him? I love him. And he does, he plays on the edge. But, mate, he'd scare people at training. And I love the way he talks. I mean, would you rather have Roy in your team or against you? We would never have won that final without Romero. I mean, we, you know, kick-off's about to happen. He's taken our team into Man United's half for the huddle because our supporters are down that end. He's not scared of anything, mate. He's a winner. I love winners. Now, does he cross the line? Yeah, he does. You know, he'd cross the line of training sometimes and the coaches go, oh, you know.

1:07:17I go, well, you go tell him. I'm not telling you. You know, but you need that mentality in a group. Now, how you control that, you need to harness that. You kind of hope that he... Do the players like him, respect him? No, respect him enormously. They fear him. You know, you don't want to get on his... Because he, you know, you've got to remember his whole existence is not just Tottenham. He's also an Argentinian national team. He's won a World Cup. Yeah. And he's mixing with players. And I think part of his frustration, his outburst about the club, is that he's mixing with a Fernandes or a Martin.

1:07:49And he's saying, well, how come they're signing players to win and we're not? Why? I want to win. Yeah. You know, so. So the good outwears the bad with him. I think so. Is that from Manning? I think so. I think so. And, you know, like I said, we would never have won the Europa Cup without him. And I think you need characters like that in your dreams. You've got to control them. I don't control them. I don't think control them is the right word. You try and steer them in a way where the good outweighs the bad, but you've also got to accept that there's going to be bad. Yeah. I think it does remind me of the classics.

1:08:22I mean, the Argentinian lad that we had, they used to wear Argentinian kits underneath the United kits sometimes. They were that sort of passionate. But the Uruguay defenders, Argentinian defenders historically, always living on the edge slightly about how they play the game. That's how they're brought up, mate. Yeah. And on Van der Ven, he looks like a Rolls-Royce in terms of when he's actually... Where do you think he can get to? Because when you watch him sometimes in games, you think he could be the best centre-half in the world in three or fours. Is that where you're at with him? What's he need to do to get there?

1:08:49He's top.

1:08:52He can be as good as he wants. You watch him at the World Cup, I reckon they'll play him left-back. And he'll be unbelievable, mate. Once he gets going, technically he's good. His ability to cover ground, though, is just phenomenal, mate. You would set him up. A lot of teams like to go man for man now. you know you'd set him up against any striker in the world without any fear that he would get out muscled definitely not out run he's and top mentality too you know I remember when we signed him because I think Liverpool were in for him at the time as well and I met his dad and he'd tell you about his dad his dad was on the interview oh okay yeah he's a big influencer oh yeah I mean he's I'm not talking out of turn but like he was like secret service he's a hard man he's like you know I remember him saying to me, he goes, listen, he's got options, but he's coming here to play.

1:09:43You better play. I go, don't say that. Send somebody around your house. Between Van Der Ven's dad and Romero, you're in trouble. So he's had a really good upbringing, so he's not going to get carried away and works hard at his game. He's a winner. He's top, mate. He can be as good as anything in terms of when you think about the modern game and the physical characteristics are obviously important. He's improved his heading. I still think that's an area where he can get stronger because he's a big lad. But sometimes his timing's not great. But the rest of his game, and because of the men, very coachable, very coachable.

1:10:22Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. You know what I wanted to ask, Ange, about the... You know when you came out about the Man City game and wanting to lose the game to Tottenham fans? Yeah. How was that with you, Ange? Because is that something that just blew your mind a bit with what's going on? Because I felt quite sorry for you in that kind of period. It was an interesting one for me because obviously, and you two know, I've come from Celtic. No one's going to talk to me about rivalry. I lived and breathed it up there. Like the perfect weekend in Scotland is Celtic winning, Rangers losing.

1:11:00Celtic winning, Rangers winning is not a good weekend. So I remember the first year we won the double, but Rangers are in the Europa Cup final. I got more text messages the night they lost the Europa Cup final than the league. People are ecstatic. So I understand the rivalry. But I also think there's a point where you've got to stand on your own two feet about who you are. And going into a game wanting to lose because your greatest rival, I get it from a fan's point of view. Maybe if I was a supporter, I'd be feeling the same way. but I couldn't represent the club in that manner. I mean, I want to win every game of football that I play in and I think it's important we do.

1:11:40And you know what, at the time, when we ended up two points from fourth behind Villa, if we had won that game, we might have gone to the Champions League. So, but it would have meant Arsenal win the league and I understand how, but that frustration comes not because I think, yes, because Arsenal win the league, but because, again, Tottenham win nothing is the bigger problem. I said, let me fix that. Let me fix the Tottenham win nothing bit. If we win that, you'll see, you'll feel differently about that because you'll be competing on a level playing field. So it was a, yeah, it was a bizarre week.

1:12:14I mean, it's your only, well, a couple of times I've had a crack at supporters, but I had a crack at one of our supporters behind because, you know, in colourful language, he said, oh, you know, you don't try like this every week. And I turned around and I said, mate, I'll see you outside. But you're going, I'm trying to win, mate. Your team, by the way. But it was, you know, I think it kind of put me at odds with some supporters. I understand that. But I don't think any supporter would really want me to come out and say, well, you know what, we're not going to try today. You mentioned Celtic.

1:12:52Obviously, we look towards the future. We've got some community questions at the end. But just on Celtic, you've been linked heavily at the end of the season to pick up that job. is that something that would interest you? You're doing some technical work, I think, at the moment, but what's your thinking around getting back in? I loved Celtic, mate. What a football club. If I was younger, I probably would have stayed there longer. I probably would have stayed there three, four years. I think I could have made progress with them in Europe. But at the time, like I said, it'd take me a long time to get to this sort of space.

1:13:25The opportunity to join Tottenham was too good. In terms of going back, I don't go back. I just don't think that's kind of been my career. Whatever the next step is, it'll be something new, something I can make an impact in, somewhere I can win things. But it doesn't diminish the affection. It was a great experience for two years. It was to be within a community that's just so passionate. I mean, it's crazy how passionate they are about their football club. Obviously, I was fortunate that we had success. So it's a positive experience. But I loved every minute of it. And, you know, I look back on it fondly, but I think it's important with all these things.

1:14:08I kind of, that's the one thing I've, you know, like I said, I made a dumb decision, but a great decision when I joined Forest. But I won't go back. I don't think that's kind of how my career's kind of played out. So is it clear that you want to stay in England or you want to stay in the Premier League? Or are you thinking more that you would? Well, it depends. I think what's important now is that I'm still really passionate, like I said, about the football. So you go, okay, if a club starts talking to me, well, it's not like I'm going to walk in there and do things differently. Do they really want what I have to offer?

1:14:43Do you really want that? It's like Roy was saying before, well, I'm going to play this way, I'm going to train this way. And I want to win things, mate. I've done that my whole career. And I love those moments. I mean, we had three unbelievable days, Bilbao and then the bus that's worth more than anything else in life, you know, and they'll stand the test of time. You know, I think if I ever go back to Tottenham in 10 years' time, I'm sure I'll be received well because of that. So I guess ambition, you know, just joining a club that's got that kind of ambition and want what I've got to offer. Do you find it difficult not being in management and resting because I remember you coming out to do some punditry with the guys for the Euros and I was like, what are you doing?

1:15:30Are you not on holiday and having a rest? Do you struggle to have a rest? Big time. And like I said, that was... Get a holiday, Dan. We were doing on the walk. Very true, very true. I guess that's why, like I said, the forest thing, that was part of it was, I'm just no good. My mind's constantly active and my family, I'm not even good, I spend time with the family, but I get in the way. I've then got a routine and process. I mean, I did a couple of school runs. I was going to kill people, right? So I can't get my kids organised in the morning. But at the same time, it's allowed me sort of just to kind of, just to reassess and get the energy levels.

1:16:11Because what happens is you go from where I am now, where you're kind of every minute of the day feels like an eternity, to 100 miles an hour overnight. Because as soon as you get a job, even before when it's likely, then bang, it's on 24-7. The club, the players, the staff, the league. So life goes from here to here. So I'm trying to kind of, not that I needed recharging of the batteries, but I'm trying to use it. But at the end of the day, and I say that to coaches all the time, coaches who complain, especially young coaches, because young coaches think you get a job and then you have a career.

1:16:49I said, no, no, no, it doesn't work like that. I said, to have a career, you're going to go through tough times. And when you're going through those tough times, appreciate them. Because the unhappiest I've ever been is when I haven't been in a dugout, when I'm out of it. I've been lucky that it hasn't happened. So not that I'm unhappy, but I'm less fulfilled now than any time. Even at Forest, even though I was under siege all the time, that's where I wanted to be. And that's where I want to be. It's more than a job, isn't it? It is. It's more than a job. It is. You're at least 24 hours a day.

1:17:24For your whole family, right? Yeah. Not just for you. Your whole family. I would never describe it as a job a lot more than that. It's a lifestyle choice. Are you still missing it? I'm big time. That's crazy. Right, we've got some questions for you here, Ange. What's the one thing you'd change in football? Oh, mate. That's not me. Oh, mate. Do you like the long throw? Oh, my God. That's the leaf blower moment for me, mate. Roy's leaf blowers. I'll tell you what I don't like, right, about the long throw. And people are going to say, oh, you know, he doesn't like set pieces. It's very, very effective.

1:17:59But the way the game is getting officiated now with the VAR especially, right, because I don't, and I'll get onto that in a sec, but I don't think the founding fathers of our game created it so that you can score goals or take advantage by using your hands. In fact, they took it away. I think there's a reason they said, you know what, to take a throw in, you've actually got to have both feet, you've got to put it over your head, rather than just throwing it in, because they wanted to limit the effectiveness of the head. It's football, mate. And what we've done now, what we've created with the long throws, but more the officiating.

1:18:31Now, people say goalkeepers were a protected species. Yes, they were, for a reason, in that once you create congestion in that six-yard box, you can't allow goalkeepers to do their job. You can't. They can't do it. And it does my head in when I hear, you know, referees and the head referees saying, oh, but players are just standing their ground. That's a foul. If I was on Monday Night Football with you, because I know you love doing it, I'd show you a live demonstration. If you're a centre-half... Do it now with a munch. Do it now with a munch. Come here, come here. So if you're going up for a header, right, you're a goal kick, and you're going up for a header, and you jump, and I just stand.

1:19:14I don't jump at all. Is it a foul? I don't think it's a foul. You don't think it's a foul? I do. Because I'm impeding you. Yeah. I'm not going for the ball. But as a centre-back, I'd expect you to do that. Do you expect me to jump or not? No, but if you hold your ground, I see centre-fours do that all the time. It's a goal kick. OK, you watch on the weekend. Any striker that does that, and then the centre-back wings ahead and then falls over him. He's impeding him. It's a foul. But they'll call a foul. because they'll say he's almost creating an arc for the player to fall over. That's exactly what they're doing to goalkeepers.

1:19:47The ball's in the air. I'm not going for the ball. I'm standing on my ground. What I'm doing is I'm obstructing the goalkeeper from doing his job. I do think in terms of actually what you're talking about, the long throw-ins and the corner kicks now where the goalkeeper can't actually do anything, I do think that something has to change. So what's that going to create? What's that going to create? That's going to create teams now saying, well, let's find long throw specialists. let's just have a long throw Ant you're ahead of your time you'd get the highest contract I've been saying that this season and that like I understand managers and teams you talk about the pressure how much is at stake in terms of money trying to sort of squeeze every last inch out of trying to win a game where they okay get the ball in the box a long throw and that's always been a case with the smaller teams okay we're not as good at football as you we don't have technical players this is our chance to get the ball.

1:20:40I accept that. It's just when I see every team do it, and even my own team, by the way, and I think Liverpool have bought Vier to Necateke, I throw and get the ball in each cricket, you can't get them on the fin. So when I see everybody do, that's what pisses me off a bit with it. But the thing is, and what kills me about it is that people talk about it being some sort of scientific, it's the equivalent of throwing it into the mixer, mate. It's just throwing it into a group of players. And what's going to happen is more and more clubs are going to just congest that area more and more, and I don't think that's what we want to see.

1:21:10I don't think that's football. Like I said, I don't think the game was designed that you use your hands to create an opportunity, in my opinion, right? I think for the last 15 or 20 years that we've always been, keepers are well protected. I think there's an element of like, you're getting your own back. There's a bit of that. The cross would come in, the referee would blow, what's that for? They'd go, oh, it was a foul on the keeper. No one touched him. What are you talking about? I think there's an element of that. The strongest argument I can see against it is the actual delays it's costing.

1:21:37it takes 25, 30, 40 seconds out of a match every time there's a low throw now. So for me, I think the way to get rid of it actually isn't by banning it, because I think it's impossible. But I think to actually say that the multi-ball system down the pitch, the ball has got to be back in play if it's your throwing within eight seconds or within six seconds. But there's always got to be balls. There's got to be a way of saying... There's a time clock. Didn't it happen rugby with a free... Yeah, so speed gets rid of it because then you can't get your centre-backs up, you can't get organised, and that's what I think deals with it.

1:22:03Because I think for me, the biggest problem is actually the game stopping. for 30 seconds, 50 seconds. They've done it with the goalkeepers. They've made the goalkeepers speed up, though, haven't they? The thing I find fascinating about it is I first saw that when Wimbledon came up in the late 80s and Vinnie John... I was watching Evan as a young kid. You've never seen anyone take long throws, really. But the game then was a lot more direct. The game now is a lot more technical. Technical, yeah. And then everyone took long throws. It was frowned upon in, like, 1987 when everyone smashed... It was a Tranmere lad.

1:22:34It was a lad of Tranmere. Oh, yeah. We've challenged it. Is that it? We've challenged it. The lab had a good point. VAR. So, obviously, I mean, look, I think... One thing on VAR, when there are some times, I think we hear through, obviously, when we do Sky Calls with... You've got a direct call to them, haven't you? Apparently, yeah. I made a mistake at the weekend. Influencing decisions. I made a mistake. You made another mistake, Harry. No, I made a mistake at the weekend. So, basically, we get the VAR feed, obviously, up to us. And it said, what did it say? it said I can't remember 15 seconds yeah he said so there's 15 seconds to go to pause the referee and so I said they've just told us that there's 15 seconds to go but I saw they say it in the right way and everyone now thinks I've got a direct link to that no I haven't I promise you that decision really annoyed you though didn't it which one the goal at the end to be fair I actually have been a bit because to be fair accuracy for me accuracy of decisions particularly it's the law Gary it's the law Yeah, I could see if decisions.

1:23:35And to be fair, the best argument I've seen on that is that Sunderland, Shoppers Light, would have been able to play against Sunderland. That would have been a disadvantage to them. So I get it. But it just felt so wrong being in the stadium. And you were in the stadium as well. It's a big old difference. Canard us, mate. But managers apparently, are they fans of VARs or not? I really don't know, mate, because I hear every one of them complain when they get us together, the referees. You all vote for it. Yeah, they all say, oh, it's overwhelmingly... That's what we've been told. Yeah, yeah. I'm going, well, I didn't vote for it.

1:24:01I know that. And I said it publicly in a meeting. I said, well, it wasn't me. Somebody's voting for me. Look, the problem I have with VAR is that it was bought in, like you said, for accuracy. But it's fundamentally what it's done is change the game. I don't think Jürgen would be able to play heavy metal football in today's, the way it's officiated. Because I did it at Celtic because for the first year we didn't have VAR. Joe Hart was unbelievable getting the ball back in play from a goal kick, playing quickly, every throwing, playing quickly, every corner, short play. Like we were high intensity, high tempo.

1:24:37It took a bit of what Jürgen was doing with Liverpool. Now, it goes out and referee goes, hold on, wait, wait, yep, all clear, go. Teams are getting set up, right? Handball. Do anyone really know what handball is? No, it frustrates me handball. But we didn't have a problem with handball. What we had a problem with before was Diego. That was the one we wanted. Don't let that happen again. Did he handle that, you reckon? No, no, no.

1:25:06You could be right there. But, well, Thierry against Republic of Ireland. Yeah, I know. No, that was definitely... I was blatant. All the managers complained, but Howard Webb was on here a few months ago. Every manager says decisions are going against them. So who's getting the decisions? No, that's right. Who's benefiting? So, my view is, it's fundamentally changed the game. and we're changing rules now to allow for it. And it should never have been the case. I actually feel for the referees because I'm thinking now, whatever, because part of refereeing I thought was always experience. I've seen this before, I know.

1:25:44But now they're going, well, I'm not sure I'll let VAR pick it up. They're donting themselves out. Yeah, well, you have to. You have to. It's got to have been a helper to him. Yeah, it's only, and now they've got him announcing it. Oh, my God. You don't even look forward to the goal. If you score, you're thinking, okay, let's see if they give it. They've taken the joy. Yeah, but just in Bologna, you would have disallowed. This is what I'm thinking about. 200, I'd chalk off. And the offsides. And the offsides. Ian, that's what we used to do. You look at the lines, as long as that was clear, there was nothing there.

1:26:12I don't even celebrate anymore. It's like when the extra time comes up and they're like, wow, it's seven, eight minutes. I'm like, it is all the time now, like 97, 98, 99 minutes of playing for. When was the last time? there was like one, two minutes of extra time We thought seven minutes come from United last night I know You must know you're in a direct line Straight to Sockley Park And who's the best pound for pound coach in Europe in your opinion When I say pound for pound I'm talking about you know Yeah I know what it means No Some managers have Keylines for keylines Some managers have billions to spend Some managers have hundreds of millions Who's the best coach that you see in the game?

1:26:51Look But I don't discount, like, say Pep just because he's at a big club. I still think you have to win things, right? And he's done that. And he's done it in a ridiculous style as well. So I still rate that. I rate Unai Emery highly, mate. And he's not exactly playing the football. But you look at his career. I mean, you talk about getting ridiculed. The way he was treated at Arsenal. Any other manager would have gone with his tail between his legs, potentially. He went Villarreal. Not big clubs. Won things again. Come down to Villa. made an impact. I think, you know, is that a club that really believes...

1:27:27I look at their strategy and I think for a club like Tottenham, there's a decent model because you look at what they've done the last couple of years to cope with Europe and also be competitive in the league. He's always gone and signed, even on loan, experienced Premier League players, but experienced players, whether that's Rashford for six months or whatever. And he gets the most out of his teams, you know, And I think I really, I rate that highly because he's handled adversity and he's still going today and he's still trying to win things. I rate managers who win things, mate. I think ultimately that's what we all do, yeah.

1:28:02So, you know, Eddie won something last year. Oliver won something last year. You know, obviously Arnie winning the league. Enzo, he won something. I think people are too dismissive of winning things these days, actual trophies. It's still what it's about. You know, as much as you want clubs to be competitive and financially healthy, you don't have bus parades for healthy bank balances. You know, you only have them for winning trophies. So any time a manager wins a trophy, he's done something. Because it's hard, mate. I wonder if they get Sunderland if we want to try that. People seem to forget that.

1:28:40No, you mentioned it the other day, actually. It's true, mate. From afar, how do you view the Manchester United situation in terms of what they should do? you know the Michael Carrick question will be asked a million times in the next few months obviously there's a lot of managers becoming available in the summer how do you view it with the experience that you've got look my view is that that's the hardest job in football world football as far as I'm concerned because the scrutiny that that that the club has and the spotlight it's under constantly takes, it's going to take, and beholden to the history it has, it's going to take a unique individual to be able to overcome all those things, or a real discipline to say that we're going to go on this path for a certain number of years.

1:29:31What we do know is it's unlikely there's going to be a quick fix. Now, maybe if they make Champions League and they signed a couple of more big players, but you've done that before. It's going to take a person as much as a manager who can handle the over 100 press conferences every year. It's going to handle winning 10 games and then losing one and being torn apart for losing that one or winning and not winning in the right style or history being, a constant companion to everything you do, you know, because how are you going to replicate what you guys did with Sir Alex? It's almost an impossible job.

1:30:19So it's going to have to be someone who is prepared to accept all that and be strong enough as an individual to say, yeah, but I will do it, but I'll do it my way. Irrespective of what anyone else says, irrespective of what's coming from the outside, this is what's going to bring a success. I think you need a proven winner. Absolutely. because I think, you know, people talk about how do you create a winning mentality? Win things. That's how you create it. So you need a winner, somebody who's won things. Because it does take something extra to win things. And somebody who's won things understands that, has been through that process before.

1:30:52But also somebody, like I said, as a person, as an individual, when you sit across from him, you're absolutely convinced that whatever comes at this person, he is not going to shake in his belief about bringing success to the club. And it's not easy, mate. I mean, I said that to Ruben early on. We played him, Elvis Patoum, because we were both going through an injury crisis. I go, mate, yeah, I'm having a... He goes, oh, you've got some injuries. I go, I've got a tough, but not as tough as you. Because it is. It's, you know, all the other managers, for whatever scrutiny they're under, it's amplified ten times when you're the Man United.

1:31:25Because of the history as well. Because everything gets... That's... I mean, I hear you guys talk about it a lot, and rightly so, but because you created that environment to win things and you know what it takes, that's your reference point. So, but that's almost impossible to replicate. Unless you find another Sir Alex, but you've got to find the Sir Alex before he was Sir Alex. One's enough. One's enough.

1:31:55He said that. Sir Alex, I'm a big fan. The North London Derby, you obviously have played in, I've never been to a Celtic Rangers game and I know quite a few of you around the table have and that's obviously one of the most ferocious derbies for atmospheres. But I actually have been shocked and surprised by the North London derby in the last 10 years. It wasn't something that registered with me at all when I was sort of playing. What was the North London derby like for you in terms of when you obviously coached it and the atmosphere? What do you think about this weekend's match? It's probably my one regret that I didn't win one.

1:32:27I would have loved to have another crack at it. I think the first game we played at their place ended up 2-all. It was a good game. We kind of took it to them. But the other games, you could tell they were – I think it was only a goal in all of them, but we just weren't at that level. But I would love to have won that because I know what it would mean to the supporters. It is – a bit like you, I thought it was a rivalry, but when you're inside it, you realise just what it means to the supporters. Obviously, this game is going to come at a pretty pivotal time for the club. And if you're talking about something to spark, well, you win a North London diamond.

1:33:12That's more than the spark. You're lighting a flame there, you know. Because it just gives the supporters, even if, say, Arsenal do with it, yeah, but we beat you. You know, I felt that, like I said, I felt that at Celtic. You know, it's like just beat Rangers. Stay ahead of Rangers. That's all you need to worry about. And I get that sense with that game as well. Is there a title race? Do you see City being able to challenge Arsenal?

1:33:43I think Arsenal are really strong. I watched them in the Champions League play Inter Milan a couple of weeks ago. What they had on their bench and they were able to put on was just remarkable. not just in terms of the quality, but just, I say, real men. Related. Yeah, yeah. And when you're going through a Premier League season, say, well, how many games are they going to drop? Because, you know, you go to some difficult places where they're going to play direct, they're going to throw things in. They've got the size and the physicality, even if they're not playing at their best, to get the result.

1:34:16Because that's the way I look at how you're going to bridge the gap. You know, City Arnest kind of consistent in terms of, again, a ridiculous benchmark that they previously had, but I don't think they're at that level yet. I think they'll win, but I don't see anyone sort of clawing back and I don't see Arsenal. Now, you get to the tail end and they're in all the competitions, you know, does that have an effect? Maybe, but not enough, I think. I don't see, and usually, you know, you get two, maybe three standout. But at the moment, if you're talking about a standout season, only one club's had it.

1:34:57That's Arsenal. No-one else. The rest are close. City are getting there. But standout season, just Arsenal. And final question, what's the best advice you've ever been given? I think what I said earlier is, you know, find your passion but then work your arse off. Like, a lot of people think when you find your passion that that means it's going to be easy. if you find something you really love, whether that's profession, relationship, work your backside off. Don't take shortcuts. Don't take it for granted. As long as I'm doing what I'm doing, that's what I'll do. And it's been amazing to have you on.

1:35:36Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much. Brilliant. Brilliant. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Royce. Thank you.

1:35:53I didn't switch off Ange just said Arsenal I'm going to win the league He still doesn't believe it Because I believe it You should have seen my face when Ange said it Did you see my face? No

1:36:09He's trying to put pressure on us He's trying to put pressure on us You're doing that girl The way you're acting On the commentary about like I won a race I won a title race we don't won a title race it's not a title race it just felt like it was kept alive no stop being so paranoid you Arsenal fans I'm not being paranoid you're so paranoid

1:36:44thanks for listening and thanks to our partners Arm Clothing subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and you won't miss an episode