Arsenal Player, Chelsea Fan & Living With Gazza | Stick to Football EP 115

0:00Just before we get started, a quick thanks to our partners and clothing. We hope you enjoy the show. You want to go where everybody knows your name? I still watch Friends just on the video. Do you still watch it? I love it. I'm not keen on Friends. Are you not keen on Friends? Did you go? Have you been to the place? It's in Boston, isn't it? Yeah, but it's not. You go down the stairs. It's a touristy place. Would you like to get away? Sometimes you want to go Where everybody knows your name Boom, I watched all of those, I cried Some of those episodes made me cry Really? Yeah, because it's brilliant, they're like a family, weren't they?

0:46It's brilliant, great show TV back then was brilliant, weren't it? And when you'd be buzzing, because you've got Channel 5 Do you know what I mean? Channel 5, yeah That's a disappointment, what Ricky Gervais said The biggest disappointment You go to. Ricky Gervais, when they said about what's your biggest disappointment, he said, Alton Towers. What's he saying? Alton Towers. So funny. He is funny. Cheers is a good one. Different strokes. Different strokes. Different strokes is good. What are you talking about, Willis? Oviedo Semper. Oviedo Semper. Oh, yeah, very good. Bottom on a Friday night.

1:25See, I like Knotts Landing. Yeah. Sunday. Dallas. Dallas. Dallas is great. Remember when Dallin, he shot JR? Yeah, I remember. How many people watched that? That was many. 18, 20 million. God, Jesus. If you had to shoot JR, he'd still be alive now already. You would have missed it. You know what? I go, I get in bed now, I put Netflix on, right? I go to my wife, Kate, I go, let's watch something. And for the next 25 minutes, I'm just looking through. Yeah. And then it's bedtime. Yeah. I'm in bed now. Yeah, that's the thing with them. Yeah, it's too much choice. Yeah. TV, struggle with them now.

1:57I'll tell you what, I watched my best programme I've ever seen on Netflix the other day. His and Hers. Oh, you've got to watch it. You've got to watch it. His and Hers, American one. Actor with a nose like that. A movie or a series? No, a series. Six of them. I can't commit to a series. I find it... I'm the same as well. Thank you very much. I don't mind the... No, it's too much of a commitment. I kept missing the traitors and then you find out what happened. I was naked gun the other day. The new one. It's terrible. He's gone, yeah, but you go, if you want that little bit... Oh, no. You might as well watch the original.

2:30Liam in that one. No, Liam Neeson. I watched the family of the one one. That was good. Brad Pitt. They drove the cars, innit? They actually drove the cars in the film, those two guys. And how quick were they going now? Try and take a TV programme now. Come on. Grange Hill. Did you like Grange Hill? Oh, I love Grange Hill. Neighbours, Home and Away? Yes. Oh, I still love Neighbours, mate. Home and Away is still going. Who? Grange Hill. Home and Away. And Neighbours. I've watched Zammel. Yeah, go on, Nuremberg. Is it like... It's concentration levels. You know what? It's just like the levels of the people and the intelligence.

3:07Because they showed... What's that one, Tommy? Nuremberg. They showed the actual footage of what was in the concentration camps and they showed them. Some of them didn't even see it before. They didn't even see it. They didn't see what was going on. Listen, it's something you've got to watch, man. Is that a film? Yeah, Russell Crowe. and Rami Malek. You should be a film critic. Obviously, it was a Barry Norman. It was a Barry Norman. That's a good job, isn't it? Just watch movies all day. Oh, gosh. Yeah, you get a bit depressed about that, wouldn't you? I fall asleep watching the film. How many movies do you watch a week?

3:39It's not even a case of... It depends on how much time I've got and if I can just have the time where you can just sit. Watches in a... I said Dallas. Yeah, Dallas. Cheers. I said Friends What was the other one? It says Dallas and Dynasty I said Coronation Street I can't think What did you say Scott? Coronation Street Oh my God I love Coronation Street I used to love that as a kid though Honestly Yeah Have you done the tour? No Oh you should do it It's so good The kids used to watch it Yeah But to see what's Fools and Horses I would actually Whatever I'm doing I make sure I get to see it You know you had to watch it On a week ago Yeah I'd make sure I watched that That is a good shout Because honestly You've seen all of them?

4:20I think I've seen all of them Just like Cheers I've seen all of Cheers That's another thing you should watch from the start. It's an amazing show. It's like a family. You've not missed one of them. What, the cheers? You ever put it on and think, fucking hell, I might not have seen this one. If I put it on, I'll know I'll have seen it. But obviously the classics. And then Batman and Robin. Phoebe, Pogba, I'm coming out of use. How many characters can you name in Dallas? That's a good question, that. I can name a few. JR, Bobby, Cliff Barnes, Sue Ellen, Pam. What was Priscilla Ewing called? That was Bobby's other wife.

4:53Priscilla Ewing she was Elvis' daughter Priscilla Miss Ellie Jock Jock He was the one who was always he was like he was J.R.'s big like emesis wasn't he Jock No no no There was another brother Cliff Barnes Cliff Barnes I felt sorry for Cliff Barnes But there was another brother Cliff Barnes There was another brother there was Bobby Bobby J.R. J.R. And there was another brother I remember when J.R. said Hey so Ellen you ain't nothing but drunk and a tramp

5:25And what I should have said I should have said Soccer Saturday And we're going to start with that verse Nice one Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing And he said I can tell you now If you don't come in here now And miss one Christmas You'll never see another Christmas I love Arsenal, Arsenal in my heart But Chelsea's in my blood So you're torn on to it, so it's who wins No I want Arsenal to win the league this season and Arsenal will win the league this season I watch all football I'm not a connoisseur it hasn't got to be you know I'll watch Salford if they're on you know what I mean right he played like he trained you know he'd score a goal in training run off like he just scored at White Hart Lane in the last minute that was what football was the lads just went out for a drink after every single game my Luka's egg bottle would have vodka in it really?

6:13yeah on the touchline yeah that would that's it I watch Jukka as Arsenal don't trust him the players they give a pass to him when it's there, pass it to me. Put it in the box. You look like that, right. I know what I'm saying. But there's no bigger buzz. I think Roy will tell you, sorry, didn't happen to you, gal, but winning a football match when you're a manager. I did win one match. Oh, did you? Sorry, mate. Sorry.

6:39Have you done, like, 20 years? Yeah, 20 years. Wow. Wow. Good. I still watch it on a Saturday. Sometimes I'm at games, sometimes I don't, but I watch it. Do you still love it as much as you always have? Yeah, I love it. Yeah. I've been fortunate from 16 years of age playing youth team football on a Saturday up to, like, this Saturday coming. I've never, ever got out of bed on a Saturday and thought, oh, no. You know, I love it. You know what I mean? Every now and again you get a shocking game. I get my game on Thursday. Like, this last week it was bright and full of me. It was like, really? You know, because I can't watch Tottenham and I'm not a great lover of watching Man City.

7:14Do you know what I mean? I just... Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I just... Because of the football. Yeah, I just think the other teams come and get their stomachs tickled a lot of the time. Do you know what I mean? So I'd rather... I just find they get 2-0 up and then it's like end of football match. Do you know what I mean? I'd like a game where it's going to get a little bit exciting. They won't let me watch Tottenham. Is that because they're like... Yeah, because I don't want them to win. You can't hide. I'm not going to lie. I find it's not an easy... Because you know you're watching it and you're trying to explain to people why this is happening.

7:46Is that something you learnt most or you're just doing it? It just came naturally for you. No, you have to learn. Yeah, you have to learn. It looks really difficult. I think the most important thing is to get first. People who ever come on the show have got to get through the first two or three months because they'll go and then they'll go, oh, what an effort. And they'll be talking, but they won't say the name. Right, right. And it's hard, do you know what I mean? Because you've got to remember, people are not watching this at home. You've got to remember. So, yeah, I'm used to it now. Yeah. I can't say I'm dyslexic, so I mess up all the names.

8:15I have to break it. I'm forever going to Clinton. What's that? What's he saying? No. And I'm asking Clinton. That's how... Oh, Clinton. I love it. I love Clinton. I'm asking him, but yeah. So I have to break all the names down. The best one I've ever had, the easiest one I've ever had, was Billy Alekdinov. Because it was exactly like catchphrase, you say what you see. He spelt exactly like it. What was it? Say it again. Billy Alekdinov. Alekdinov. Billy Dinoff. What names do you struggle with, Merce? Like, what would you, like, sort of... Smith? No, er... Yeah. Anything with silent letters in, really struggle.

8:57I remember doing my first... One of my first ever shows, and I rung a man called Kondo after, who used to be the producer. And I said to him after, I said, I struggle with the names here. And, you know, it was a bit embarrassing. And he... I went, should I go to, like, a college or something to learn journalism? And so, you know, try and get... And he went, no, just be you. And that was the best thing someone ever said to me. It was just be you. And if you mess up, you mess up. Did you get stick, though, not pronouncing the names? Do people give you... Yeah, people stick, yeah, but they don't know.

9:25Do they know they do this? No. No, they don't. Well, I mean, they might know, but they still give you stick. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, but, you know, Wayne Yerry begins with an N. Yeah. I mean, it's art, you know. It took me six years to now Ali had the air, and then he left. I mean, it's like... Yeah, but I absolutely love it. This week, I'll be fortunate. I'll watch Arsenal against Leeds this weekend, which is a big football match. And Simon's done well, hasn't he, since coming in? Because it was big shoes to fill. Oh, massive. Especially, it's like going into Man City and taking Harlan's place.

10:02Sam, right, you've got to score 40 goals a season. You know, Jeff was the ultimate at it. But people forget, God bless, before his wife passed away, Simon, He was like the top presenter, top presenter. I mean, he was on Blue Peter when he was younger. And he's come in and just been himself. And I like that. You know, he gets nervous sometimes. And rightly so. It's a hard job to do what he does. And then now he's like, people forget as well now. So he does three till five, bang, reeling out scores. And then he's got to do full-time scores. And then he's got to do the tables. And in between that, sometimes we're lucky enough to get an interview now off one of the players.

10:38So he doesn't get a rest for six hours, which is amazing. It's some doing. The man, you know, the famous man used to do the... He's that famous? I don't even know his name. He used to read the scores out. Do you know what I mean? No. Who? Alan Lamble. Alan Lamble. Yeah, Alan Lamble. So he used to read them out. So Jeff had that, like, five or ten minutes just to get the table. So, to be fair, what Simon does is unbelievable, to follow someone like Jeff Stellan. You just said there that first two or three months and you said about you were told to be yourself, but that's one thing that people always say when they watch you.

11:13Everything comes out of your heart and soul, your passion for it. You just absolutely love it, don't you? Yeah, I love it. I'm addicted to football. I love football. Do you know what I mean? I'm addicted to it. In what way? Do you watch every game? Yeah, I watch all football. I watch any football I watch. I'm not a connoisseur. It hasn't got to be... I'll watch Salford if they're on. Do you know what I mean? Even though they're doing well this season. Do you know what I mean? I'm not one of them who goes, oh, I'll just watch that because they're good players. Because, you know, I love watching football.

11:41I love watching all kinds of football. I'm addicted. Yeah, I love watching it. I love the games. See, sometimes I'd rather, like the other day, and this is no disrespect to Brighton or Fulham, I'd rather go and watch a league. I would rather have done a League Two game that had something on it. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? You know, I've been brought up to... Because it wasn't... Yeah, but it's like 8 v 9th or 7th v 8th. Do you know what I mean? I like games. I don't care what league they're in. Yeah. And there's something on the line where if you win this game, bang, and if you lose it, you know what I mean, you're out.

12:14Stick to Football is brought to you by Arn Clothing. Hello, I'm Jonathan Wilson. And I'm Rob Draper. And we're the co-hosts of It Was What It Was, the Football History Podcast on The Overlap. And we've got some exciting news. On Friday the 6th of February, we're officially launching our Patreon. If you enjoy the podcast, this is your chance to go even deeper. we've got exclusive bonus episodes that spin off from our main series we're also starting our world cup countdown revisiting every tournament from 1930 right the way through to 2026 plus our new magazine lookbacks flicking through classic issues of shoot and other favorites from football's past it's all available only on patreon and by joining you're helping us to make more of the show you love so come and be part of the it was what it was community and we'll see you over there It's a mad concept, isn't it, when you think that basically we're watching you watching a game.

13:12Yeah. Like Gogglebox. Yeah, it's like, it's mad, isn't it? It's just 20 years old, if you think about it. It's like pioneering at the time and thinking about how that would work. Yeah, I don't know how it does. I don't know how it does. But I hope it continues. Yeah. But, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I remember years ago, the legendary Georgie Best was on and people were like that. Yeah, Roddy Marsh. Rodney Marsh, yeah. They've had superstars on that show, do you know what I mean? So, yeah, but I didn't really... I don't know what it was, but when I was playing back in the day, it didn't fuss me what they said.

13:48No. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I've had loads of people, you know, agents get in touch with me and say, you shouldn't have said that or shouldn't have said that. What, about the players? Yeah, but I have rung up players before. OK. I've rung up two players since I've been on that show to apologise. That was Harry Maguire when he signed for Man United. Because I thought it was a bad signing, 70-odd million. I didn't think he'd be able to play on the halfway line. And I stick by that. But I just felt like I carried on. Right. And I was going on and on and on. You know, like when you just keep on.

14:18And I come away from the show and I thought, no, you're out of order. Didn't feel good. You're out of order. And I rang up Brendan Rodgers. I said, could you get me his number? And I rung him up and he was a bit surprised. But I said, you know, I'm not disagreeing with the fee. and if you plan on the halfway line, I think you might struggle. And then last season, I'd done Arsenal against Tottenham at the new stadium, Tottenham Stadium, and Tottenham were atrocious that day, atrocious. But I picked out Maddison, I picked out James Maddison. And, you know, afterwards I thought, you know, why am I picking him out and not everybody else?

14:51What did you say about it? I just said it weren't good enough. You know, it weren't good enough, got to be doing more. But, you know, I'm one of them. He played in my position, you know, I think Scolese said it earlier, when you're playing at a 10, you've got to affect a football match. Even if it's just once in the whole game, you've got to affect a game. It don't matter how bad the team are playing. And he didn't do that, but at the end of the day, he's still got to get the ball off the midfield. So I rung him up and he went, I haven't even seen it.

15:19It's lucky I've run out of credit on my phone. That's interesting. It's become a thing now, hasn't it, in terms of obviously what is being honest to the fan that's listening at home, but what's actually going too far. It's interesting that you have rung up players and thought, I've gone too far there. Yeah, because I've got to believe in what I say, do you know what I mean? I'm not scared of doing that, but sometimes you can go, wait there a minute. I can come away, I've just got to keep my side of the... It's a way of what I'm in now with my recovery, I've got to keep my side of the street. Yeah, but that's where your passion comes out more.

15:52It's a balancing act, isn't it? Imagine if you were doing the games, you were quite robotic and you thought and of course if you feel you've done something wrong then there's nothing wrong obviously apologising but I think you need that passion as well I know I've crossed that line a little bit as well but imagine if you were just sitting there and you were just going through the motions and I'm just picking up a few bob but I think that comes across because you are passionate so it's all you can't do it that long if you ever phoned anyone I didn't phone anybody but I bumped into somebody who I taught again Harry Maguire as well I can't help oh bless that Or Harry.

16:26Probably the same day you called him. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, no, but if I think I've said something, yeah, I would do the same, of course. Yeah. But you're also doing it because you're passionate about the game. I don't sit in Sky Studios or whenever we're doing stuff and just go through it. You're passionate about the game. Sometimes you do cross a line. That's because you care about the game and you love it. Yeah, like last week, I was very, very bullish on Soccer Saturday about Arsenal beating Man United. I just couldn't see any result by Arsenal winning that game. And people were going, oh, but I just couldn't.

16:54And everybody's just remembering one game against Man City. And Man City then went to Boda Glynn and got beat. I was very bullish. And then when I get it wrong, get destroyed. Do you? Oh, my God. Some of the stuff I get on Instagram, my choice. I can listen to it. It's not a problem. But it's unbelievable at the highest level. Do you know what I mean? At the highest level. But when I sit on there in September or October, I think it was September, and Liverpool were like seven points clear, Arsenal were a bit touch and go. And I said, right, if they get four points out in the next two games against Man City at home and Newcastle away, Arsenal will win the league and they got the four points.

17:35No one says a word. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if I do get that right, someone goes, well, you said Kevin De Bruyne won't worth 30 million. Yeah. Yes, so they got that. It's only the negative stuff, isn't it? You know what I mean? I said that. I said that on Sky when he signed. I'm a big Chelsea fan. I've got a lot of Chelsea games. I'd seen Kevin De Bruyne at Chelsea. And it was my own eyes. You didn't see it? No, I didn't. I'd seen him at Chelsea and he just didn't produce at Chelsea. And he goes and gets bought a man's seat. And I'm like, I'm not sure about this. I think it's a lot of money. And I did say it on Sky.

18:06But it was my eyes that see it. It weren't a guess. It weren't like, oh, let's just say something for click bites here. I'd seen it. I honestly didn't think. And then turned out to be probably one of the greatest midfield players. But at least you give an opinion, Marius. That was my opinion, but I'd seen it as well. Do you know what I mean? Go back to Chelsea. You said you're a big Chelsea fan. You still go to the games. I knew you were a Chelsea fan, but I didn't know that you would still go to matches now. And you still get excited when Chelsea win. Oh, yeah, massive. Yeah, I go away games.

18:34Yeah, I go away games. How old was you when you first went there, Merce? Six. Wow. Six, so over 50 years now. You just don't change your team. No. You know, people say, oh, you play for Arsenal. I love Arsenal. Arsenal in my heart. But Chelsea's in my blood. you know, Chelsea. It's the only game I don't go to. I'll be working, for Sky, I do Arsenal-Chelsea games, but I won't go there as a fan. My boy's a big Chelsea fan as well and he goes, we'll go to that. And I go, I can't go to that. He went to the semi-final first leg with a kid across the road and I couldn't go. I said, I can't go. I can't.

19:10I love Arsenal fans too much to be disrespectful. So you're torn onto it as if it was who wins? No. I can't sit there in front of the fans You want Chelsea to win? He's going to win. Yeah, I'm a Chelsea fan. Chelsea fan, man. I know, but he's got Arsenal in his heart. Yeah, but then Chelsea's in the blood. Yeah. Don't get me wrong. Chelsea ain't winning the league. I want Arsenal to win the league this season. And Arsenal will win the league this season. They will win it. There's no doubt about it. Go back to that. Is that 50 years ago? Go away. 50 years ago, we'll come on to that. 50 years ago, you go to Chelsea.

19:43And who is the player that's making you sort of dream about football? Ray Wilkins and my hero. Ray Wilkins. Yeah, my hero. What a guy, yeah. Yeah. You know, people say you should never meet your heroes. I mean, they disappoint you. I was with him about, I got fortunate to meet him well before, but I was with him three weeks before he passed away at Stamford Bridge. We was there, me and my wife, we used to have a meal in the little, the bar next to the ground. And, you know, my little boy was there at the time. Honestly, I always wanted to be Ray Wilkins. Always wanted to be him. I always wanted to be everybody because I hated me myself.

20:19I hated being in my own body. But Ray Wilkins, I just, even when I watched him on telly, the way he talked, everything he said. He was just, yeah, a gentleman. And I wasn't a gentleman. You're a very different player, though, than Ray Wilkins. Ray was obviously very much a midfield player who sort of controlled the game. You were obviously someone who played further forward and sort of impacted matches with assists and goals. Just the way you played, graceful. Yeah, I just, yeah, I like people who've got a good brain. You know, I watch, you know, I love Scalzi. I love that football person, that brain-like.

20:53Right, he was the best. I played with one of them, with Burkham. I love playing. Roy done everything simple, which is the hardest thing in the world. I'm not being horrible. The hardest thing in the world is to keep on doing stuff the right way because people get involved in a game and they go, oh, that's too easy. Let's start spraying ball 60 yards now. and, you know, Roy just done everything simple, like 10 out of 10 every week. We couldn't get near them two when we used to play against Man United. You know, and right, he played like he trained. You know, he'd score a goal in training and run off like he'd just scored at White Hart Lane in the last minute.

21:34I mean, it's just, yeah, it's just enthusiastic. And Gary was a clever player as well. I didn't like playing against Gary. But as you said about there, Ray Wilkins, Because when you look at Ray when he played, that was a brutal physical division, the English league back then. He'd now be a player that would be running games, wouldn't he? Like a Pirlo type, obviously Scoles on there. You're that player who would sort of get on the ball, like a Zubemendi type player, really. Oh, yeah, them players would be a dream, wouldn't it? No one tackles anymore. You're not allowed to get near anybody. Everybody stands off you.

22:07I've always said, I always felt the top league was the easiest league I played in. The lower I went down, I know I was getting a bit older as I went down, but it was harder. I played a game in the conference at the end of my career and every time I got the ball, someone just took it off me. It's like, what are you doing? You can't do that. But when you play in the Premier League, I see it now. I watch a million games. Someone gets it in midfield and they put their foot on it and they go like that. That would never happen when I played. Someone would just smash you. I don't mean smash you in a horrible way.

22:40Sorry, Jill, but they would close you down enough to get your head down so you had to play. And I just, you know, the other day all they did was, you know, the other week against Arsenal last week was they got the Arsenal players' heads down. You know, they got close to them, they shut all the holes off. And I could play now if someone stood that far off me and let me have the ball. I'd spray it all round the pitch. Goals, there was no one better than him. and Jamie Redknapp spray balls all over the place. That's the problem. You know, people just stand off now and they just pass it here and there.

23:15Yeah, I just find it... It's what them players love as well, don't they? It's what them players love. Give as much time on the ball as you want. I'll give them much time. You close people out. Once you start getting to the ball... Our people give away the ball very quickly and that's what happened last week. You've got kids now that are in the system. Yeah. And what... Why, there ain't any more, is there? Don't say that, girl. How many kids have you got? Eight. Eight? Yeah. Wow. Really? Eight. Yeah, eight. I didn't realise you were eight. Oh, what did you think? That was a joke then? Well done!

23:52What I'm saying is you've got kids that... What do you feel about the modern game in respect? Because when I think about you, and there are a number of players sort of going sort of back to sort of when you played, players like you weren't respected anywhere near as much as they are now. Now, if you think about Cole Palmer, Phil Ford and Jude Bellingham, these types of players, back in the day, there might have been you, there might have been Gazza, there might have been maybe Matt Latissian. There were very few players who had your ability or your skill. Chris Waddle. Chris Waddle. Very few players, but you weren't given the level of respect back then.

24:21Where do we play him? That type of question was always asked. Is that what you felt back in the day? No, not really. No. No, I didn't. No, I was wondering how I could play anywhere. I didn't have a position, if that made sense. Do you know what I mean? I could play left wing, right wing. I played centre forward before righty got there. And then I started when I went to the 10. And then I played in midfield in a three at Aston Villa. So I could play anywhere along the front. Where was your favourite position? I would say 10. I would say as a 10. But I always found 10 was... I always got man-to-man marked.

24:55Wow. Always. That's what I don't see anymore. When I used to watch Man City in their pomp and Kevin De Bruyne was off the charts, I always used to sit there and think, just go man-to-man on Kevin De Bruyne. Just stop him playing. And people go, oh, yeah, but they got him and they got him. And I'm going, no, they're not like him. So just stop him playing first and then see what the others are like. I always got, you know, Newcastle, Liverpool teams, I always go man-to-man. Who's the best man-to-man mark you've ever played against where he just didn't give you a kick the whole game? I'm going to go.

25:24I always played against Rob Lee, right? He'd be man-to-man mark me at Newcastle. But I knew Rob would go and play his game. Rob would go, I ain't doing this all day. and you get a little bit... I played against a lad called Charlie Oakway at Brighton, a little midfield player, when I was at Middlesbrough and Portsmouth, Walsall. Just followed me everywhere. Everywhere. And then once the ball come to me and I give it one of them and the ball went... I wasn't getting a kick and everywhere I went, the ball come and as it come, it was spinning and I went like that and he was running towards me and as I passed it, he went, do that again, I'll break the fuck up.

26:00I'm like, all right, I won't do that again. But he was like, I would say he was, and I played against a lad in Torino in the Cup Winners' Cup away. I forget what his name is. I think he went and played for Italy, but he was another. It was just different in Italy. That was their job. They were all like Martin Keown. Yes. You know, Martin should have been Italian, Martin Keown, because he would follow you everywhere. Everywhere in training, yeah. Like, to the extent that if there's a corner and it comes in and it bounces there and his man's there, he's leaving that ball. Because that's not his man.

26:35You know what I mean? Because he don't want it to go there and it drops to him and he scores. But, yeah, the rash was, you know, the rash could have been Italian. When the ball come to you, was your first thought always to go forward? Because when I watch clips of you, you're so direct, looking to shoot outside the box forward passes. Do you get a bit frustrated when scores? He was saying about 10s kind of setting the ball back and stuff now. Yeah, I was listening earlier when you were talking about 10s with Odegaard. I don't look at Odegaard as a 10 because he don't go anywhere. He just stays on the right-hand side of the pitch.

27:05You never see him ending up over on the left. 10 for me goes anywhere they want to go. But if I'm playing with Roy and Scholes and I'm the 10, I'm not going past you that way. That's your job. You're good enough to do that. Do you know what I mean? My job's to be in here in between the lines and make something happen. and, yeah, I had so much going on outside my life that when I got on the pitch, I'd just done what I wanted. And I didn't mean that in a horrible way, but if I give the ball away, it wasn't the worst thing in the world. I just think now we're all living on stats. You know, 20 minutes gone of a game live on Sky and it comes up, Salazar's touched it twice, you know.

27:43Did the manager just give you that freedom, though, Matt? Yeah, yeah. Think about George Graham. I wouldn't expect that. Yeah, he would say everybody else was sort of, do your jobs because remember how much work we've done in defence when I first got I couldn't believe it I couldn't believe how much work we've done on defence but anything going forward is just just go and do it I remember I remember speaking to John Hollins just before I got there to Arsenal and he said the difference is the calibre of player you're going to play with now and I thought well how different can it be and I'm not just saying but when when I watch Merce in training especially with that right foot then you realise that there's levels to the game obviously Rocky and Davo and Tony everybody but it was Merce in those areas that could find me.

28:24Was Merce playing them right? Left side, anywhere, in and around there, pop up anyway, pop up on that side, that side, anywhere, pop up, I'll be up top, you'll be behind me. It was Dennis before Dennis came. But you're a bit frustrated, Merce, with that game with Henrik Larson on a few weeks ago and he's kind of fed up with the game. Is it more the attacking players are getting fed up with what's happening now? Are you frustrated with attacking players from teams? Would that be... Yeah, because I get... It's more the attacking players who seem to be more frustrated. Yeah, because they're too safe.

28:54But the safeness comes from the stats. I mean, when you see it in midfield, I never see you two do this, right? The ball comes in midfield and you go, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Ten times you pass the ball before someone passes it. That's just so they've touched the ball 60 times in a football match. Now, people go, Harlan touched the ball seven times. He's got a hat trick. Who cares? Do you know what I mean? and that's what I think it is now. People are so scared to give the ball away because we're all on stats. We're all on stats. And when you do give it away now, you don't get it back for a couple of minutes because no one closes down.

29:27So you're forever just watching people pass the ball around. But surely for the clubs, you're on a bit of stats and obviously getting bogged down by it. But the attacking players, if they are giving the ball away, you should be encouraging that because that means you're trying so. Yeah, 100%. But I watch Jokka. Whereas, next time you watch it, Arsenal don't trust him. The players, they never pass to him. They never pass to him. You watch him, next time he comes short, they go, no. Do you think Mercer's work? It's because they're not used to it, because they haven't had one for so long. Because I was saying, remember when I said, I'd be in the drink, I'd be saying, when it's there, pass it to me.

30:00Put it in the box. You're saying it like that, right. I know what I'm saying. But this is what I'm trying to explain to Mercer, that, like, him as a strike, he's got to go in there, right, coming from where he's come from. He wants to get to his... he's got to start pulling people around. Yeah, that's maybe on the player then. It's absolutely on him, Roy. He does, he accepts it. Honestly. Be more demanded. If you watch it, you'll be surprised. Honestly, he comes like that and they go, nope. And then when Jay Suze comes on, they just keep on giving him it all the time. Yeah. Different. You know, it's different.

30:26So you don't think the Arsenal players think he's technically good enough? Yeah, that's what I see from when I watch the game. He doesn't, he comes short and they don't give him it. They never give him it. He makes some good runs as well. Sometimes just put it in the channel for him just to give a run. He might get a throw on. Because he's low at the moment, do you know what I mean? But, yeah, I don't think they trust him at all.

30:56We were talking about that last week in terms of the recycling. If you were at Mikel Ateta moving forward now, who would you play as that front four to make it as exciting as possible? I think horses for courses. I think, you know, they go to Leeds at the weekend. I play Martinelli because there'll be a lot of space. Leeds will have a go. You know, when they go and play at home next week against someone and they sit 10 behind the ball, I don't think Martinelli's got the guile of a trossard. And then I think that's when you play trossard. But trossard's only going to be as good as the centre forward where he can flick it inside, give it and one twos.

31:26I mean, you see the Man United goal the other day. Fernandes makes the goals with his one twos. Do you know what I mean? It's just the vision. I mean, Kobe Manu, that link. Yeah, it's just that link. You don't get that link at Arsenal. and that's where I think they struggle and I think they will struggle at home at games because they haven't got the guile. You know, I love Declan Rice. I think Declan Rice is superb but he's not going to put the ball through the eye of a needle for you. Do you know what I mean? Eze should. Eze should. But Eze, again, I watched him last week. Eze plays no other person.

31:55He plays very, you know, he's relaxed, he's cool. But you can't do that. Fans at Arsenal, he got here the other day and he's looking up and he's waiting and they're all screaming. and you're like, just let him play. He will make something happen. Just let him play. But again, he's got to get used to it because it's all right. If he'd have lost at Man United with... Palace. Palace. It didn't matter. I mean, it didn't matter. Now he must be coming off the pitch going, we're getting slated. We're four points clear, top of the Champions League, near on in the Carabao Cup final, in the next round of the FA Cup with a winnable game.

32:32I mean, I'll be sitting there now in the dressing room thinking, what's going on here? You know what I mean? And it hasn't even started yet. What is it, 15 games? It's not even started yet. It's eight. When it gets down to about seven or eight, and then that is it. At the moment... Well, if they're nervous now, they'll be nervous. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I watched them against Forest. I mean, Forest game reminded me of a bit like England against Italy in the Euros with Gareth. You're 1-0 up. Just go for it. What's the worst thing? We're just talking a point. If they'd have won one and lost one, they got more points than two draws.

33:09And, you know, people go, oh, still 38 games undefeated. But no, wing football matches. I think they should have just gone at Forest and just absolutely. I mean, what you said on the telly when it went 2-1. They've got to go for it. They've just got to go for it. If it ends up being three and four, who cares? Yeah. You know, you've got to go for it. Will Mikolata, do you think ever be that coach, though, that does go for it. I mean, historically, when I look at Arsenal, Arsene Wenger probably was the most free man, but George Graham back in the day wasn't deemed as being a defensive coach, even though, he was deemed as being a defensive coach, wasn't he?

33:40He won the Arsenal. That's what he's saying. But that's coming now. I mean, I heard him called South Stoke the other day, but to be fair, that was just something on there. You know what I mean? Who, what? South Stoke, basically. He just played long throws and set pieces. Is that? Wow, is that what I call him? I've won every game, isn't he? That's what someone called him. I know, South Stoke.

34:00Yeah. I thought you didn't get a self-care. I know, yeah. Yeah, but you know what you did? Because of the actual long throws, the set pieces, struggling to score goals from open play, will he ever be that sort of what would be progressive coach that you're talking about there? Because I like Arsenal. I think they're a brilliant team. Yeah, I think they're a brilliant team. I think where they are by not being a brilliant team. It's hard, yeah. I don't know. It's a difficult one to call. I just think at the moment, you know, it's fine lines. Man, United game, they grind them down first 20-odd minutes.

34:32They go in front and you're thinking this will be it. And then, I mean, everybody goes on about Zubomendi. But the pass from the centre-half, what does he do? Just roll it back and then he can wax it at him. That's what we do. That's what we do. You know, and everybody goes, oh, Zubomendi don't make their mistakes. It's not him. It's a five-yard pass. Just roll it. And then if he rolls it, he can put it there. And if he rolls it, he goes back there. And then all of a sudden they get nervous. but everybody, the whole... I talk to Arsenal fans, I go, what do you reckon? I go, oh, they'll win it, they'll win it.

35:04They will win it, in my opinion. But Arsenal fans are like, no, no, not yet. You think they'll win it because of their doing or because of how bad the rest is, really? I think the rest is great. No, the rest ain't great. Man City ain't great at the moment. I don't see Man City going flawless to the end of the season. I just don't see it. Villa are hanging around. You know, they are hanging fair play to them and they should get a bit of respect because there's a lot of games gone. We're not like seven, eight games in. We're 20-odd games. But, yeah, there's no Liverpool. Do you know what I mean?

35:33Tottenham ain't great where you'd... Tottenham could take points off Arsenal. And, you know, Man United, you know, they have. But they played Man United at the wrong time. There's timings. Yeah. I always look... Towards the end of the season, it'll all be about timings. Five weeks ago, playing Man United at home was a give-me, give-me. Do you know what I mean? All playing in the wrong positions. Ain't got a clue. Ain't really. The manager keeps on coming out. He wants to get sacked. You know, every Saturday he's sitting at the airport with his bags and waiting. And then they go, you've got to go back.

36:02He's like, I've got to go back now. That's how it felt. It did feel like that every time he'd come in. I would sack me if I, you know. Who wouldn't sack me? And then he gets to the airport, he's sitting there and his wife's going, how long will you be? And he's like, I'm just waiting. And he doesn't. The airport closes and he's got to go back. You know, it's like Chelsea played Crystal Palace last week. You know, ten games without a win Palace. About two months ago, Palace away is a hard game. It's a hard game. It'll all be about timings. You know, you can look at games now, you go, oh, we've got to play these, these and these.

36:34But they could have won five on the trot by the time they come around again. But for me, I still, honestly, I still think Arsenal win it. I do. I think this could be a blessing in disguise, that result against Man United. You've got to remember, it's Man United. You know, they've got top players. You know what I mean? They're all playing in their right positions, as Scolese said. they can all play it's a back pass and two weldies Rea never made another save so it wasn't like the Liverpool game where I thought they got ripped to shreds in the second half against Liverpool even though Liverpool didn't look like scoring it was the way they were ripping them apart so you know I think that's what they got to look at the positives and a game at a time but yeah I'll go with it Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing Take us back to young Paul Merson.

37:26I wouldn't be here now. He'll be out. How young are we going? When you go into professional football, what is that person like at that time? Shy. Shy? Yeah, very shy. Yeah, struggled with shyness. Yeah, quiet. It was all right when I was around the lads, but away from that, yeah, fear. Yeah, hating myself with a passion. You said that twice now. You said that about being in your own body. Yeah, hating my own skin. That's so unusual to hear from a young football player. When I think of a young 15-, 16-year-old football player, usually they're the brash ones in the sort of what would be the school because they're obviously at a football club.

38:10They can play football. They're athletic. You know, in the team, they're confident. And you are saying they have the exact opposite. Never like that. Yeah, always, completely. You know, even when I was playing at the top level and playing at Arsenal, we were winning trophies, I'd always be the same, unless I had a drink and then I was a bit, you know, a bit leery, a bit loud. But otherwise I was very, you know, I'd sit in places and we'd be sitting in and someone would come in who was shit and they'd bowl in like that and they'd throw in and I'd be sitting there and I'd be going, you're useless.

38:42Was that me and Phil with England? Me and Phil walking in. First, where's it come from? Because that's learned behaviour. Why was you shy, intentive and in yourself? I don't know, yeah. Where's it come from? I don't know. Just something you have. I'm an addict. I don't know where that comes from itself. Do you know what I mean? But that's what got me out of being myself, is drink, drugs and gambling. They took me away from the way I felt. I never turned up in England and thought, oh, yeah, I'm here, I should be here. I always felt, nah, I'm a fraud. We played with you in England and, you know, you would go out on the pitch, you'd be one of the best players technically.

39:20We never would have read that, obviously, at the time in terms of how you were. But there's two different things. One is saying you're shy, but one is saying that you basically hate yourself and you don't like yourself. Where does that come from in terms of what was it like at a young age, at 14, 15? Yeah, I struggled with nerves. I had bad anxiety when I was a kid. It was called palpitations. My heart would all... You know, I had to come off the pitch a lot of times when I was a kid. You know, and my mum took me to the doctors and started saying, get nervous, and my heart beating under my arm, and the doctor just went, stop playing football.

39:52Wow. Just stop. You need to stop playing football. And, you know, I carried on and I learnt how to do it. I'd be at the back of the coach sometimes with a brown paper bag, trying to breathe. Grasshopper. Yeah, trying to breathe. You know, I remember playing in the reserves against Peter Burnett, who was in Gold Chelsea at the time. My mum and dad are there, and at halftime I didn't even come out second half. I couldn't breathe. Yeah, I used to get real bad panic attacks. I had to sleep with pillars. up so I wasn't laying flat. But I think now a lot of people are aware of panic attacks of anxiety but go back to our sort I never heard those words mentioned at all in terms of particularly in a football dressing room what was there for you back then to be able to help deal with that who would you go to?

40:32A dealer. Seriously, that's the only thing that would get me out of that or a bet or a drink they were the three things they were the only three things and three o 'clock on a Saturday As soon as I crossed that white line, then that was my time. For an hour and a half, I can go and play. Don't get me wrong, sometimes I have bad, bad, bad games. But usually I'll go out and enjoy it because I knew there was so much going on in my life. When was that point where you first, you just said, I'm an addict. When was the first point where you sort of realised that, you know, this is not right and you felt you went and spoke to someone?

41:10I think it was, yeah, end of 94, we played a dance in the Cup, Winners' Cup, and my heart was coming out my top. And then I just thought, wow, I can't keep on doing this. I was addicted badly at the time. My nose was caving in. How old were you then, Merce? 94, so I was 26. Right. 26. And I went to see Ken Fryer and I said, I'm struggling here, I need help badly. You know, and they had a rough inkling. I had an injury once when I was training. My ankle just blew up like that. They got the PFA in. It was Mike Parry at the time. Remember Mike? Mike Parry, the scouse who done talk sport. Oh, right.

41:49Yeah, he was in charge. He was big at the FA then. So I got them in and they sent me into, got a meeting to send me into a treatment centre in Marchwood in Southampton. I was the first person to get done with, you know, taking recreational drugs. I've got 20-game band to start with. And I went to this meeting in November and they said, right, you're going to go into this. A man called Stephen Stevens, never forget. You know things like last week you forget and things like 100 years ago, you remember. And he'd just come from Albuquerque, a Welsh man, Stephen Stevens. And he said, we're going to put you in this treatment centre for six weeks.

42:27And I said, yeah, but it's Christmas. I can't. Well, I come home for Christmas, don't I? And he went, no, I said, I can't go in. And everybody was in this meeting. It was loads of people. And this Stephen Stevens goes, wait there, can I just have a word with him? He took me to another room. And he said, I can tell you now, and I promise you this, if you don't come in here now and miss one Christmas, you'll never see another Christmas. And that's what he said. And I was like, whoa. And I went in. And lucky enough, I was allowed out that Christmas because I was doing well for one day. But, yeah, that sort of, that was, the drugs stopped then.

43:01But the drinking and the gambling carried on. How was the rest of the dressing room? Do they know about this or is it a case of you're an injury? How was that explained? They didn't know. They didn't know. I stayed away from the lads in the end. The drugs took me away from the lads. Even Tuesdays when they all went out, I wouldn't go. I'd go and make excuses because I was going other places. I remember when I first got in, I remember, look, Merce, they used to have the telly down the side and used betting. I remember there was one game, people would come and say, Merce, don't speak to Merce, he's like 36 grand down.

43:31and before we went out on the pitch, that's what was happening and then his mood would change. You'd see him in the train. He wouldn't even talk to you when he's getting dressed or anything like that. It was just, you just accepted it for what it was. But it was the time when I saw Merce on the TV, when, you know the TV one, Merce, when you came, that's when I realised this is. When you were crying, Merce. I thought I was all right and then a reporter said you can never have another drink and I was like, I just burst out crying. I thought, how am I going to live? because I drank a lot. We always had a laugh when we went out, didn't we?

44:04I just thought, how am I going to do this? I'd done it for a while and then I went back again. We've had a lot of players, to be fair, that are probably around your age on the show, but that, to be fair, back then in the 80s, probably 70s as well, but 80s, 90s, that was what football was. The lads just went out for a drink after every single game. When did you first start drinking? Was it with the lads after matches and it just obviously escalated from there? Yeah, but I could never tell you. The moment I had a drink, I could never tell you when I was going to stop. Do you know what I mean? I'd say to my wife, like, I'd go down to the pub on a Sunday at 12 and I'd be back after the last live game.

44:44So I'd be back about 6, 6.30. And I'd put my hand on my heart. I'm going home. I'm going home. 100 % I'm going home. As soon as I picked up that first drink, I didn't know when I was getting home. I honestly did not know when I was ever going to get home. On a Saturday, I would wind up in the end going out in flip-flops and shorts. to stop me going out, like, to a club or something. And in the end, I would still go to a club and I'd get in because I was Paul Merson and I was playing for Arsenal. So they would let me into nightclubs in shorts and flip-flops. Were you drinking every day? No, at the end.

45:17I'd never drink Thursday and Friday. Yeah, because we had a rule book and it said don't drink Thursday, Friday. So when I didn't pick up a drink, it wasn't a problem. I wasn't going to get drunk. But till I stopped seven years ago, on January the 6th, I was drinking every day at the end, yeah. Yeah. Every day at the end. And when I was a manager at Walsall, I was drinking all the time. Like, my Lucas A bottle would have vodka in it. Really? Yeah, on the touchline, yeah. That would sit in there drinking that, yeah. That's amazing. I needed to. We were shit. Honestly, we were dire. That's amazing that you haven't had a drink for seven years, though.

45:54Yeah, it is a miracle, but it's a data time. I get up every morning, I say, I will not have a drink or a drug today. If someone said to me, you've got to do that forever, I'd find that impossible. And I think it's the same with Arsenal. They've got to get back into that at a time. The management, to enjoy any bit of the management. It was always my dream. Even at 28, I look back now, and when I was about 30, 31, I was at Villa, and the Bolton job come up. And I remember talking to the presser going, I want that Bolton job. I think you're a crackpot. You know what I mean? But, like, I wanted to be a manager.

46:27I got given an unbelievable opportunity. I worked with a lot of managers. And right, he'll tell you, you know, I listened. You know, I never went into training and messed about. I trained exactly, you know, if I got in at four in the morning, I'd be at training. I'd never miss training. And I'd work my socks off. I'd work hard. And I thought, I can be a good manager. And I failed miserably. But you tried on this. Remember when you... Yeah, but it's trying. I was drinking all the time. I was gambling. You know, it's the hardest job in football, is being a manager. There's not enough hours in the day, and you are relying on other people to do the job that you're going to get blamed for, which is unbelievable, really, isn't it?

47:11Do you know what I mean? How many times do you get a job that it's not you? As soon as they cross that white line, that's it. And I found it hard. I should have got sacked a lot quicker. And the chairman was desperate for me to work. Desperate, desperate. But if you didn't have the kiosk going on, do you think you could look back and go, I could have been a manager? Yeah, I do. I do. I think I would have been half decent. I think I would have. I understand people. I think I'd be good with people. Do you know what I mean? Today. I don't think then, but I think today. Yeah. But I wouldn't, you know, I love my job at Sky.

47:44I wouldn't want to leave. You know what I mean? If I had to start, I'd have to start in tier 10 or something like that again. You enjoy Sky as well, Marsh. I love it, yeah. I think ex-players, when you go into whatever TV or media, you're part of a team, isn't it? You mentioned Clint and all these. Oh, Clint and Chris Boyd, Tim Sherwood. I play with Tim, great lad. And Michael Dawson, Sue, I love Sue. I fit the world of her. I love it on there. I love the people. And everybody who works behind. Do you know what I mean? You get in at 10, half 10 and it's that buzz. Because when you finish playing, it's that 15 minutes in the dressing room, isn't it?

48:17You know you're shit at the end. Do you know what I mean? People were running past me and people were going, you're finished and all that. And you're like, you are really. And then you get in that 15 minutes and it's just that jokey, laughy situation. I was fortunate I worked with the lads before, you know, and I've been lucky enough to work with these people now. Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. I was going to ask you when you said about dropping down the leagues before, was it harder because you didn't have the good players around you? Was it obviously more difficult because people aren't on the same wavelength?

48:54Like League of Walsham. We were championship when I first went and then they went to League One. But wherever I went, so I went from Arsenal to Middlesbrough, Middlesbrough to Villa, Villa to Portsmouth, Portsmouth to Walsall. Every club I went to, every one, I always looked at the players first. I have to be round good players. I have to be round good players. Whether they're good championship players or good League One players, I had to be around good players. I could never do it on my own. I wasn't one of them players. I wasn't going to get the ball and beat five players and score. You did that movement in front of you.

49:27Yeah, I needed people who were going to do running, who had legs. Do you know what I mean? I needed people that could be on my wavelength. I was at Portsmouth and probably had my best season ever, playing with Todorov and Yakubu. And the ball would come in, I'd flick it around the corner and they'd be gone and we'd score. I get to Walsall and the ball comes in, I'd flick it around the corner and no one's there. And they're going, you're useless, Merson. and he was washed up a piece of shit. And I'm like, probably right. He's going to be your manager. But yeah, I always looked to make sure the players were good.

50:01It's like I always say with Haaland, Haaland ain't getting 60 goals at Rochdale. He's not. He's not going to get the ball on the halfway line, beat four players and score. He needs, and that's why I think he's drying up a bit at the moment because he ain't got Kevin De Bruyne. He ain't got that player, do you know what I mean? that just does something. I mean, he's the only player I've ever seen, Barberkamp, but since I've stopped playing and watching Sky and being on Soccer Saturday, he's the only player I've ever seen pass a ball and then sit there and go... Yeah, he's brilliant. How did he see that?

50:35That inside play position. Yeah, and you think, how did you see that? Do you know what I mean? Whether it's like glided or with pace. Yeah, it's just... But yeah, I'm always about the players. I was always about the team. I loved team. I loved that team environment. I loved being around and winning. There was no bigger buzz, but there's no bigger buzz. And I think Roy will tell you, sorry, it didn't happen to you, gal, but winning a football match when you were managing. I did win one match. Oh, did you? Sorry, mate. Sorry. Was it a good buzz, gal? That moment was amazing. No, but do you know what I mean?

51:09You get that. It was different to being a footballer. It was that different, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, but Mertz, just quickly on players. as you said, who was the best player that you ever played with? Oh, by a million miles. I played with Gazza, who was the best English football I played with. And there's always shelves, you know, like Maradona for me is up there and then Messi and Ronaldo and Zidane and Omri and Berk. And Gazza was the best English player, but he was on the same shelf as Dennis Berkamp. Dennis Berkamp was... I just, I can't express how good he was. Do we see him as that?

51:40Because you've obviously played with him. Well, I'm thinking that you're saying he was above Gazza. Yeah. Gazza was unbelievable. Yeah, no, I thought Gazza was unbelievable. But I played with Gazza at the end at Middlesbrough and when we was with England, I wasn't with him enough. But with Bergkamp training every day, if we're sitting at a game, I go to Chelsea and sit behind the goal in the Matthew Harding, and we're sort of about seven rows back, so we're looking like that. And that's how we see it as footballers, don't we? We're there and you don't see much. He played like he was sitting up at the upper tier.

52:11Do you know when you sit in the gantry? and you see everything. You go, well, why don't you go there or there? He played like he was sitting in a helicopter. He could see everything. And, yeah, everything. And he had that nasty ear. You know, like people say you were a bad tackler. You wasn't. You just wanted to do people. You made our life. People used to go, Skulls is a bad tackler. No, he's not a bad tackler. Gerard followed through. He's smashing it all on purpose. You know, the thing with Dennis is, and Gazza as well. I say the same with Dennis. He's the best. And obviously Gazza has to get a mention.

52:47But the thing with Dennis is off the field as well, how he carried himself continually. And his levels, what he continually reached. That's what it was. His whole package. Everything. Everything. I think that's quite important. That's quite important because you listen to a lot of people who say that he's one of the best they've played with and they always talk about it. It's everything about it as well. The level and the consistency. That's what it was with Dennis, I suppose. To be fair, quite a few of us have played with Gazza and he was absolutely amazing. He said you looked at players. When you were looking at Middlesbrough, did you think, I want to go up and play with Gazza?

53:17Was that the sort of draw? No, he hadn't been there. He wasn't there. If I'm being honest, Gal, Middlesbrough draw was the money. I was banging my addictions at a time and it was greed. Brian Robson was a part of it, but it was greed, pure greed, and I hated myself for a passion. Every club I went to after that, I took a pay cut. I took a pay cut. I hated myself so much for... Because when I grew up as a... Your money. Yeah, because when I grew up as a kid, right, we had match of the day and we had the big match with Brian Moore on a Saturday, which was a London derby or whatever. And I used to watch that with my dad and think, I want to be a footballer.

53:55Not I want five toilets and four baths. I want to be a footballer. I didn't even know they got paid. And then for me to be that greedy, to go for money... That's the addiction as well. Yeah, but I took a pay cut every club I went to after that. And then my money went up at Villa because I'd done well, so it went right up to where it was. But, yeah, I just hated myself. And I loved it at Middlesbrough in the inn. I mean, what a place. The people up there, they live for their football. Yeah, but at most, I'm thinking of you and Gazza in Middlesbrough. Yeah, we lived together in the same house. Oh, my gosh.

54:32I mean, Brian Robson, he put us in the same house. So I had my brother, me, Gazza and Jimmy. We had a six-bedroom clubhouse. God, oh, my. Since what? Six-bedroom clubhouse. We used to go to a club. I'm thinking of a golf club. No, it's a golf club. Well, that must be enough. So he had, like, for the first three months, about first two months or so, I'd get up in the morning and Gaz would be laying on the sofa. And after about two months, I said, what are you on the sofa for? He went, well, there's no bedrooms, is there? There were six bedrooms. He slept on the sofa. He didn't think there was enough bedrooms.

55:05He'd give Jimmy a bedroom, thinking there was only three bedrooms. That's what he's like. Like, he would give Jimmy a bed and he would sleep on the sofa. Oh, his heart was amazing. Like, you play cards and he can everybody at cards, right? And he's playing at Lazio and he'd be winning thousands of pounds off the lads and he'd go, just give me 500. Just give me 500. You know what I mean? He'd never take the money off the lads. He was like, his heart. But he wanted everybody to love him. Yeah. And it's impossible for everybody to love you. You know, I go do talks when I do a talk and someone come up to me.

55:39after, literally as bash as this and go, I used to think you was a wanker but I think you're alright now. Now I've heard your story, I think you're alright. And I'm like, you never met me. How would you know? I have a tattoo there. It says, don't judge me until you walk to Marley in my shoes. I think it's one of the best sayings ever. You know, people always you know, I always hear people about Robbie Savage, how he's this and that. You know, I met Robbie Savage a couple of times. It was a nice man in the world when I met him. A lovely bloke. And people slaughter him. I go, have you ever met him?

56:09and they go, no, and I go, meet him, meet him, nice bloke, couldn't talk highly enough of him. Do you know what I mean? So you shouldn't judge people. Yeah. With a stretch, Robbie Savage, he's a nice guy. He's doing well in management, isn't he? Yeah, exactly, and he's doing it the hard way. Exactly. The hard way, that's hard. Conferences. Hard, hard. Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Is it true that I heard you say in an interview that you were lucky to be here because of a car crash that you were involved in? Yeah, I fell asleep on the motorway. Yeah, I didn't have a seatbelt on.

56:49And did they say if your hand fell asleep? Yeah, if I fell asleep, I didn't have a seatbelt on, I would have gone straight through. God. Yeah, I cut all my face open and all my nose. Yeah, so when I fell asleep, I obviously hit the thing and come straight back. Wow. Yeah. I was in hospital for six months when I was a little baby. Like, I should have died. My mum said I should have died. Like, she said she was badly, badly ill. Oh. Yeah. What was your lowest point, Merce, where you think that's as bad as it gets? Plan for Arsenal, winning trophies, plan for England and want to commit suicide. Wow.

57:27You know, I'm driving to work thinking I'm just going to pull in front of this lorry and finish it all. that was the artist because naming all them things and them wanting to commit suicide, your brain's telling you, addictions talk to you. When you see films and you have a good and a bad, that's addiction, you know, it's like that. Someone's going, do that, don't do it, don't. And I'm sitting there thinking, if I come out and go to someone and go, I'm struggling, I want to kill myself, and I'm playing for Arsenal, we're winning trophies, I'm playing for England, people are thinking, you selfish, ungrateful sound so, sound so.

58:04And that was the hardest. And on a consistent basis, trying to kill myself. I played with someone later on in my career at Villa, and I honestly think this lad would have been one of the best players in the world if he was playing today, and that was Stan Collingmore. And I say that, he was six foot three, he was two footed, he was as quick as Roy was just then in that race. I let him win. Yeah. And he had everything. He had everything a footballer would want, but he struggled with depression badly. And people used to think you were ungrateful. I'd walk in the dressing room and I sat next to him, and one day he'd come in and he would talk to you for an hour like he was your best mate.

58:43And the next day he'd walk in and you'd go, you're all right, Stan, and he'd literally walk through you like Patrick Swayze in Ghost. And it was sad, really, because when you get to find out now, in this day and age, he would have been a player. He would have been a player. I thought he was an exceptional player. But you imagine him and me up front. I'd just lost all my money and he's struggling with depression. We're standing up front like that sometimes. That's how we used to play. We played against Derby once and the geezer at the back sent her off. Stimic or Stimic? Yeah. He's keeping the ball up.

59:14While you're just watching. Oh, he's just standing there. Wow. I was thinking, you prick. No. Yeah. But couldn't even get light. It got that bad. Is it fair to say the game's got better at dealing with that now or do you think these problems are still, we know some problems are still occurring in dress rooms, but does the game sort of handle it better now than it would have done back then? I think they're getting better. I think the public are more understanding. I think, you know, I've done talks with big, big companies. People understand now, it might be someone, a CEO of a big company. They'll always have someone, they'll always know someone that's struggled and I think that's what helps.

59:50There's one rule that needs to be changed, it needs to be changed quickly and that's the gambling one. It's got to change. You can't be giving 10-month band out to players. Tony, Tonali, 10 months. They're all right. They're on 100 grand a week. They're 40 million pound players. A kid who's playing in League Two, who's got a little kid, he's playing in League Two where they play for the love of the money. They're not playing for 1 ,400 grand a week. All of a sudden, they bought a house. They buy a house. All of a sudden, the mortgage rate goes up. They're not getting another contract. You know, the club ain't going to go, oh, wait a minute, we'll give you another 15 grand a week or whatever.

1:00:27All of a sudden, the natural instinct for a compulsive gambler is to gamble. I'm going to win this. I'll win my mortgage money. I'll win it. You lose it. You lose, lose. Keeps on getting lower and lower. Can't go to the FA now. If you go to the FA now and go, you know, if you're a League Two player, you go to the FA and go, gosh, I'm struggling with gambling here. You know, I've been betting on football matches, 10-month banned. You're finished. That club's not going to keep you. You know, they can't afford to. and that's, it's got to change. PFA, do they have, PFA must be. They might help, but it'd be a 10-month ban.

1:00:57The fear would be that they'll get a ban. If they get a ban, that club will have to let them go because they haven't got the money. And that's where the FA have to change this rule for the people below. Not for the players now on 200 grand a week because you're not going to get rid of Tonali and Tony because they're a 40, 50, 60, 80 million pound player. So for me, I think it's so important they change that rule, and accept that this is a bad addiction, it's a bad illness, gambling. I hear people go at me, show a bit of willpower when I was used to gambling, show a bit of willpower. Willpower.

1:01:33Next time you get diarrhoea, try and stop that with willpower. It is a smurse. You can't. It's not willpower. Do you know what I mean? It's hard when you're in an addiction. People have their rent and they think that a gambler won't wire himself to a situation where if he's got his rent or his mortgage in that hand, the rationale of a normal person is pay your rent, pay your mortgage, and then we'll go. That's not the case with a compulsive gambler. They're compulsive. They don't rationale. Their brain ain't wired right. They will do that money on trying to win a yacht or a boat. Do you know what I mean?

1:02:11And that's where it disappoints me with the FA. The FA in terms of the punishment or the support? No, the punishment. Yeah, the punishment. Ten months is too... It's an illness. You know, if a player went and got done now for heroin, they'd be playing again in a month or two because all you do is drug test them. You know, and I just think, you know, I'd love to fight that case. I just... Is the support there for the players mercy? I think so, if they've got the bottle to come out and say it. Yeah. Because they're scared. It's all right someone coming out at the top level who's on 200 grand a week.

1:02:46They've got their mortgage payments for the next hour long. But the people down in the lower leagues, they play for the love of the game. They love the game. They haven't got the money. They'll have to work when they finish playing, unless they got into a business adventure. But if they didn't, they ain't going to have enough money. And I just think they need the help. It's interesting what you just said before. I asked about being a maverick. and you said you always felt free actually when you were playing in terms of on the pitch, you didn't feel restricted. Is that right, Jimmy? Because I always used to think that players like you, like maybe Gazza, Matt Letizia, they weren't treated by England as well as maybe they should have been in the talent and actually now with the likes of Cole Palmer and Bellingham, they do get maybe sort of like a lot more love than they would have back then because of the style of the game.

1:03:35Did you feel always appreciated by England? I know you said you didn't feel appreciated by England writing, but did you feel appreciated by England or that you should have been loved a lot more? No, I don't think I deserved to be loved more. I didn't play well for England. No? Yeah, no. I never felt that I'd come off the pitch at England and sat in the dressing room after and gone, you know, that's how I used to play for Arsenal or Villa or Middlesbrough. I never... Yeah. No. Why is that? I felt a bit like that. You know what? I felt a bit like that. Yeah. Yeah. The clubs I played for, the clubs I played for, was give the ball to Merse.

1:04:11Give the ball to Merse, make runs, and he'll find you. And you touch the ball 70, 80 times. You're not going to play 70 or 80 good passes. You might play five or six of them. When it got to England, there was another four of them players on the pitch. Do you know what I mean? And so you were touching the ball probably 20, 30, and then you're, I've got to make something happen. And you start hitting passes that are not on. then, you know, I can't play safe now because, you know, how many more times are I going to touch the ball in this game? And I just kept on forcing it. Instead of probably being like a top golfer, they bogey a hole.

1:04:47Just get back to Pardor next, though. Do you know what I mean? I always tell my boy now when he's playing, you're going to give the ball away. Give the ball away. Everybody gives the ball away. Next pass, play it simple, get back in the game, and then you go again. I never got... That was the case with me at England. And, you know, it might be different for other players, but that's how, you know, I never played well. So I never sit there and go, oh, I should have been appreciated more at England. No. Coming up to this tournament now in the summer and you've got Harry Kane's going to play up front.

1:05:16I think that's probably fixed. I think Saka's going to play on that right-hand side. I can't see how that's going to change. The left is going to be the sort of Gordon or maybe Rashford, but Gordon maybe. That middle position there that's got Bellingham, Foden, Palmer, Morgan Rodgers and there's four for one really unless you're squeezing someone in somewhere else and you're shoe-on in somewhere where are you going now between those four? Because you've got four players there that are unbelievable players, aren't they? You know what? People say it's a good decision to have a load of choices I ain't sure it is because I think there's going to be the team are going away for six weeks this ain't like four weeks it's an extra two weeks plus the two you're probably before training I mean, these players there, if they're not playing, they're not going to be happy.

1:06:02No, I agree. They're not just, you're run of the mill, I'm going to be grateful. You know, when we went to 98, there was a few of us, not happy before you jump in to be sub, but we knew the score. You knew the players that were playing. So, you know, we were clever. It was more of an acceptance. We were clever, yeah. We were accepting. You know, you don't sit there and go, you know, I'm not. We were like Ollie Watkins. You know, he's not sitting there at England and going, why am I not playing? because Harry Kane's playing. So you know the game. I just think that position's so hard. It's so hard.

1:06:36And England have got the respect of everybody's going to sit 10 behind the ball. So there ain't going to be a lot of space for that number 10. You know, teams play 10 behind the ball and you're not going to be able to get it into him. So sometimes I ain't sure if I play it. Sometimes I think we're in a position and I know people might think it's 1980 stuff. it might be better sometimes just to play two up front. Play Watkins and Kane or whatever, just to... Leave all those four out. Yeah, because you go an extra man in midfield and you keep the ball and try and bring teams out. Anderson and Rice are probably going to play there, aren't they?

1:07:13You would think he's going to play with those two. He's not going to probably change that. Yeah, I see. You must like Palmer. You see him a lot more. You know what? I like Palmer, but Palmer misses Jackson. Jackson made Palmer, Palmer made Jackson. And people say, used to slaughter Jackson, oh, he's so good, he missed his chances. You'd love to play with Jackson, because he always went that way. He's like you, righty, do you know what I mean? He'd come and he'd go. When they go like that, everybody drops off, and then I'm the tenner, I can get on the ball. You watch Palmer now, he puts his foot on the ball, and there's nothing there.

1:07:47Yeah, Pedro wants to come this way, and there's no movement. And, you know, I just think it might be better off playing another midfield player or another centre forward where you're enticing teams out. Is that why he's gone with Morgan Rodgers? Because obviously Harry Kane's going to drop a little bit. Maybe Morgan Rodgers can actually run behind and be a bit more of a forward rather than the others who are a bit more dropping into a pocket. Yeah, but at the moment Morgan Rodgers has got an advantage because teams have a go at Villa. So the game opens up and as you're a 10, you get loads of space.

1:08:18You know, Bell and them play around Madrid. whoever they play will sit 10 behind the ball. Man City, 10 behind the ball. Do you know what I mean? A lot of Chelsea now, 10 behind the ball. Does Bellingham have to play? I mean, for me, I just look at it and I think to myself, Bellingham's got a start, hasn't he, really? Do you think out of those three or four players, I mean, look, I love Palmer, I love Foden, I love Rodgers, but Bellingham starts? Is that where you go then? Because he is more of a midfield player as well. He can drop in. I would. I would play. I would always play Bellingham. I just think he gives you that extra.

1:08:49you're going to beat these teams by third man runs or someone running from midfield like Scolese did and Roy did as well do you know what I mean? Make them runs that's what we've got to do if it's people standing with their back behind the goal and they're number 10 you're getting the ball and there's a midfielder there and a defender right up your backside there's nowhere for you to go so I think sometimes give people something to think about I just think if you just have someone playing as a 10 and they're going across the lines. He's not hurting anybody. You know, I would play Benham. I think Rodgers has the advantage at the moment because teams have a go at Aston Villa, you know, and I think until the end of the season when teams might show Villa a little bit more respect than they deserve, then it'll be a...

1:09:34But I would play him. I don't know about Gordon. I would play Rashford. You would. I think I just... Again, all I would... See, I would play Foden out there because Foden's got guile. You know, he's got guys going to come inside. Who's in the form? In the next three or four, a lot's going to happen. Of course it is. Because Ford has gone quiet. He's been quiet. He's got that goal to play with Kane. Kane's probably one of the most cleverest players around. Everything's about timing it. You know, I remember when I was playing football, the next manager of Man United was going to be Brian Robson, Steve Bruce or Mark Hughes.

1:10:08The job comes up and none of them three were set in the world of light at the time. It's like the two lads now at Bournemouth and Crystal Palace. If they were doing what they were doing four or five months ago, they would have been manager of Man United now. They would, but you can't take them because they've just lost 13 on the trot, and one in 13, and one's not one in 10. The Man United fans are not going to have that. No. Do you know what I mean? So they'll wait and wait, and then hopefully they'll turn it round, and then they'll bring one of them to. Simon. Yeah. It would be hard to imagine England up there and Bellingham down again.

1:10:38Yeah, 100%. You can't see him on the bench. And he's got that. I know he left him up before. Yeah, and I don't think he will sit on the bench. Yeah, but I think it's good that Morgan... It doesn't look like a sub, does it? Yeah, no, no. But the thing with Morgan Rodgers, it's good that he's playing to the kind of level that will push you. That's what we need, isn't it? Rodgers is in the best form, isn't he? Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Right, Mercer, we've got some community questions. Gary Wright sees him. Does Michalata have to keep his job at the end? how good do you think that United could be in another two weeks best roommate for club and country I have to say my best mate Perry Groves Grovesy yeah Grovesy yeah he's funny you don't realise that's a really funny he's a funny honestly Roy you'd love Perry Groves yeah very funny he's a lovely guy yeah funny lad he we used to have a thing called the Tuesday Club at Arsenal which was a big thing we always used to go out Tuesdays it was a big thing he'd come to Arsenal as a 21 year off from Coltristie, he'd never had a drink in his life.

1:11:40Never, ever touched a drink. So he signed at Arsenal as Cliff Richards and he left as Keith Richards. That's how bad it was. That's how bad it was. It was. That's how bad it was. Dragged him down. Absolutely. That's me. Not you. Don't. There's a few of them. Which current player reminds you most of yourself? Oh, that's a nice one. That's a good question. You're giving yourself credit there.

1:12:10He's predominantly right-footed, though. Grealish. No. You know what? I used to watch a lad, right, till he went to Man United, Mason Mount. Yeah. And I used to like watching him. I used to think, yeah, I thought I played a little bit like you. You get on the after, you can find a part. He had a good brain. Do you know what I mean? I like players that have got a good brain. I'm a big fan of Bruno Fernandes. He's a good football. Brilliant player. Good footballer. He's a good footballer. There's a lot of good players around. There's a lot of good players. There's not a lot of good footballers. Do you know what I mean?

1:12:46Like, footballer. Good footballer. You know what I mean? Good footballer. Like, all comes, bends it round the corner, gets it again. Like, they're footballers. There's a lot of good players. You loved that one outside of your right foot, didn't you? Yeah, I could, yeah. You loved that. You're like Madrid. Was that outside? Yeah, I never touched it before with the inside. I don't think I've ever done it once in my career outside of my foot. I touched it more with the outside than the inside. But I just find there's a lot more good players than good footballers, if that makes sense. Do you know what I mean?

1:13:10One quality you wish you had as a footballer? Would you like to have been rapid, like quick, quick? I was quick. I know you're quick, but you like... No, I was quick. You'd have to have a race. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen you. You're quick. You look quick. I think that made you look quick. I was brave on the ball. I wouldn't tackle anybody. If someone comes steaming in, I'd just take the ball. Take it. Take it. We'll get it back in a minute. You're not a problem. But I was brave on the ball. If it wasn't going well, I'd always keep on getting the ball. I'd never hide, and I could have bad games.

1:13:45Good in the air? Left foot, mate. I was all right in the air. I wasn't bad in the air. I had that timing. He's getting better. I'm better. Left foot. I kicked the ball in my left foot probably 20 times in my career. You mentioned going to England. I wish you'd gone to England years ago and gone. Yeah, I deserve to be here. Would that have been a nice feeling to have? Yeah, maybe. But yeah, maybe about... You said a don't yourself. Yeah, but even then, it's not like I was playing for a team in the bottom half of the table. We were winning trophies. I was like getting young player of the year and things like that.

1:14:14So yeah, maybe a bit of confidence, but more confidence. You were going with England, yeah. Which player do you wish you'd played with more? Maradona. Oh, more. No, I didn't think so. That was for football reasons as well. I think it's football. Be a good nail. My favourite. Who would I have liked to play with more? I'd go righty. Not because he's sitting here. I'd love playing with righty. I mean, there's a lot of films where I've literally got my hands in the air when he's going through because he just... You can play on wavelength with players and I knew what righty was going to do and he knew what I was going to do and that makes your job very, very easy.

1:14:58And he had that enthusiasm where it carried you through. There have been dark days in my life. where I'd come in where his enthusiasm would pick you up. Do you know what I mean? I remember seeing that, Merce. I think it was, there was, We let her dub it out, let's go. Yeah, yeah. I remember, I think I scored in the cup final and I went through from the afternoon and I think when you watch it back, I did score in the game. I got a little dink. But Merce already had his arm up when I was going through. It's the biggest compliment I think I've ever had in respects of what someone thinks. He already had his arms up.

1:15:29You're scoring. Well, I used to score goals, yeah, that I never see anymore. chipping the goalie. Yeah, I don't remember that. Has anybody ever chipped the goalie anymore? Ever? It's true that. No one ever chips the goalie. Dembele, the other day I saw. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's a worldie. You're not talking about a dink over the goalkeeper as you go through one and one. No, I'm talking about the chip. You remember the tis when he does Schmeichel and he was in his six-yard ball righty against Leeds when he put... Gillespie Albert. Gillespie Albert. Gillespie Albert. The goalkeeper's off their line.

1:15:58Did Bruno try it? Jorval away. Remember Jorval away? Yeah, Jorval. They were a good run. Right, run a good run. They were a good run. Time. Time. I think they beat Scarborough at home four before that. Everybody went down there thinking we were going to lose that game. So it was so... It's the following year after the Wrexham game. So there was that... Yeah, because that's when I was able... I couldn't play in that game. Because you wouldn't have lost otherwise. Of course you wouldn't have. Of course you wouldn't have. It's almost... Which current striker would you form the best partnership with?

1:16:27Harry Kane. Yeah, but Harry would drop into... You love Harry Kane. I love Aarhus. You love Aarhus. I love Aarhus. He's that good that he can still be playing in five years' time. You won't get too many centre-forwards in this day and age where it's all pacey-pacey and every centre-half can run that you're going to have centre-forwards that are going to be playing at that age. That just shows how good he is. He's very nice. I like that flick round the corner and give and go. I'd always be thinking. Is he England's best ever striker? I know it's a sort of question that has been asked on here before.

1:17:01Is he, I mean, I know goals-wise he is, but is he England's, you know, the Shearer-Cain debate, obviously you've got Lineker, you've got Rooney, you know, great strikers over there. Do you think he's England's best ever striker? I wouldn't put Wayne as a centre-forward, I'd put him as a 10 sort of thing. Do you know what I mean? I wouldn't put him right up against, you know. So, if you're saying number 10, as a centre-forward, I would say him. I'm a bit, you know, I've been before Jimmy Greaves and people like that before my time, so I can't judge on them. But I think Harry Kane's the best footballer out of the centre forwards that have passed, like your Shearers.

1:17:38Shearer couldn't do what Harry Kane done. Do you know what I mean? And then I don't think Harry Kane could do what Shearer done. I mean, he was just, he was, even though he was good, he was so, he was like, so strong. We've done a lot of England games where we've done Kane, we're like, he looks a bit leggy, he looks a bit off, and then bang, bang. How many times have we nearly... Not written him off, but it's now dealt him. Yeah, he can come off though and play as a 10-carning, do you know what I mean? And that's why I think sometimes we might, with England, he might be better off playing a free midfield where you've got, you know, Bellingham in his first year at Real Madrid where Kane comes this way and he can make that run.

1:18:12We should be doing it with Rashford and the pace that we've got with Saka. When he comes, that's what should be happening. As soon as he goes, he'll find you. But we play Sabuio. The Canion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Sabuio, do you know what I mean? You watch, when we kick off in our first game, when the half-time whistle goes, everybody will be exactly where they were when it started. You know, you won't get Saka making a run across there and if he comes and then Kane just drops in there for a minute. It's very Subutio football, I call it. Which team did you love scoring against most? I didn't score a lot against Man United.

1:18:42I scored a couple at Ivory. I'd go Liverpool and Leeds were the games then and Man United, but Liverpool and Leeds scored some big goals against Liverpool. I thought you were going to say Tottenham because of Chelsea and Arsenal both sort of disliking Tottenham Yeah, maybe, I didn't care who scored against Tottenham But if I scored Liverpool you know, when you turned up at Anfield on a Saturday at 1.30 you go in and the team would be read out in the dressing room and then you'd go downstairs with a programme onto the pitch and the kit man would put the kit out it weren't like now with this all out and you'd go out and the cop was like rocking.

1:19:23Like at 1.30, it was like it was 3.30 in the afternoon. It was intimidating. Yeah, I just loved it up there. And Ellen Rowe, because Leeds were flying, big team at the time, well, they're a big team now, but they were like right at the top in them days. And I just, if one of them, you get games where you score against teams, don't you? And Leeds and Liverpool were probably the ones, and Palace. Your favourite goal you ever scored? I scored some good goals, but I'm going to say this goal. It was Leeds United, FA Cup at home. We're 2-0 down. Ray Parler scored. I scored the last kick of the game.

1:19:55I cut inside, whipped it in the far corner. And we went on and won the FA Cup that year. Right, he ripped them up at Ellum Road. And we won. That was 93. My dream, I lived in Holsdon, which is not far from Wembley. Growing up, when I grew up, the FA Cup was the ultimate game. Exactly. It was bigger than the league. You know, if you won the FA Cup, more people knew that than the league winners. So I would say Leeds United. and last question your all time favourite five a side team who you could pick your five a side team that I played with or who I could pick no that you played with that I played with I'm going to pick David Seaman in goal I played with Peter but Peter was the end of his career at Aston Villa so I got to go with David when he was in his pomp because I didn't play with Peter in his pomp runners no it's not five a side I need to be keeping seriously I know I didn't make it at Morsal but I haven't I'm a thinking man do you know what I mean thinking man

1:20:57Tony no he was good on the ball though Tony he was better on the ball than people give him credit for he won't bad at five a side though he was alright when he played he was the best defender he played with he would be Tony Adams wouldn't he he was unique yeah he was he was strange Tony he was just he was strange because like he weren't no hairs and graces do you know what I mean the best I ever played against with Paolo Maldini, he was like, now that's a different light. But Tony was like, strange. Because you watch Tony and he... He's not meant to be as good as he is. Yeah, he just didn't...

1:21:30You know what I mean? He just didn't... It was like, everything was an effort. Like, you know Gary McAllister. I played against Gary loads of times. His face was red raw after one, two minutes. I think, I got you now on toast. I'm going to kill you. And I'd run and he'd get there and then he'd go... And you go... He couldn't breathe just now. And Mully. Yeah, Mully, yeah. But yeah So he's got You know what If I'm going to play out From the back And I'm going to play People who want to play And I've got to play I'm going to go Gary McAllister As a defender Yeah Because you ain't got Really defending A five a side game But he can play He's comfortable On the ball Gary McAllister Gary McAllister I don't just get on Scott Gary McAllister How do you say that Gary McAllister's Centre half Yeah, I'm going to say, and then Dennis Burkamp, Gaza, righty.

1:22:22What a team. Wow. Wow. Do you need a defender in that team? No. Just go for it. Yeah. Like Arsenal should do, just gamble, boom. That's what we used to do, yeah. Put the handbrakes on. I heard Roy go earlier when I was up there. He goes, yeah, when you're a manager, you gamble. That gives you a... Not a top manager's gamble. Didn't help me. Didn't help you gamble. Not a top manager. Don't gamble. Don't gamble. Merce, great to have you on. Thank you so much. Thank you. Well done. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Brilliant. I enjoyed it. My man. Right, so you got a lot of love there, by the way.

1:22:56That went quick. It's like an ask-a-loving. Merce was great.

1:23:06Yeah, will you do me a favour? One of these question things. Yeah. Would everybody be out of signing? Yeah, of course. A little boy, he didn't stop asking, can I get a signature? Let's get the... How old's your little boy that's playing? Eleven. Let's do that one, the warm-up chat one. Have you got a black market, like a sharpie, anybody? Do you want to do the poster first? Can I give a shout-out to a guy called Bosco, a lad who's really ill at the moment? Oh, he's ill at the moment. Yeah. Where's Bosco? Bosco, we say we give him a shout-out to him. Bosco, yeah. Bosco, really ill at the moment.

1:23:34Get well soon. Get well, it's my friend. Yeah. Right. Oops, sorry.

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