Ashley Cole: Arsenal Exit, Chelsea Success & Dealing With Media Criticism | Stick to Football EP 104

0:00Just before we get started, a quick thanks to our partners and clothing. we hope you enjoy the show oh god they've got the the worms they've got the worms haven't they I absolutely love these do you need anything Gary are you alright do you need anything no I'm good thank you no I'm good thank you yeah Lewis are you enjoying it this new role yeah it's been it's different it's different to what I'm used to yeah yeah yeah I really enjoyed coming on last time to bet it was unbelievable yeah yeah I watched it with my family. It was a pretty unreal experience. I was watching it with my family. Knowledge is unbelievable.

0:39Who's this gift for, Lewis? What's Ben doing? That's for Ashley. Is it? Yeah, from our friends at home. Oh, wow. No, you leave it on your spot. Yeah, Ben, it's good. Can you get me some gear as well? Are these the Marks and Spencer's ones, Lewis? I think so, yeah.

1:00Here we are. Here we go. You're there. Why is it... There's an intimidating factor coming in. Ash, a little present for you from Arne. I know you wear it. Thank you. Do you open it then, Ash? You can open it. Yeah, sure. OK, how many of these have I done? I haven't had one. Can you send Wazir a practice piece? You've got 17 million. Exactly. I can swap. Ash, so last week we have to start with this question. You don't have to answer it. So last week we went through all our highest salaries that we earned during our career. Don't embarrass us. Don't embarrass us, yeah. To be fair... Waza blew us out of the water.

1:37It was determined that Waza was on an incredible£17 million. Yeah. I was 1.75, which was, to be fair, pretty low, considering where I played. The more you think about it... So, Ash, really kill me now and tell me what your high is... You don't have to if you don't. You don't have to if you don't want. Yeah, you do. Come on, Ash. But it's helped to show. 200 a week? 10. Yeah. 10 a year.

2:12I could have a yacht but you love United I love United you're right wow well done Ash that was my issue wasn't it whenever you're home grown they try stiff you yeah that was that's what you'd have had that just got stiff your whole career gee how many bags Oh, what are these? Do you know when I said last week on the show that you shouldn't leave for money?

2:41Ash, similar to what you're wearing. I think I could have played for Chelsea. Let's have a look at them, Ash. Oh, yes, Ash. Look at them. They're very Ash as well, aren't they? It's chilled, aren't they? Chilled. TV pundit shoe. TV pundit shoe. Normally black and white, though. It's a TV pundit shoe. Ash, how are you? Not too bad. A little bit tired. Got back late last night, but all good. Fellow full-back Hall of Famer, Ash, eh? Yeah, I'll curse you. Congrats, by the way. Thank you, Ash. Nice of you to turn up. Did the public vote for you or your mate? Would you be in the public, wouldn't it?

3:13Do you know what? I don't know, actually. I don't know how it works. Ash, give it to him, Ash. Yeah. Yeah, how did it work? Did you get the previous winners? Thank you. That's the thing. Yeah. Can I give you that as well? Couldn't have voted for the first two, could he? No. No, I think that was the... The public had done that. I'm not sure who'd done the first two. So who voted your one? The public? No. They voted my one. Previous winners. Class of 92.

3:38The public voted that one. The second one. I think the public voted that. I don't know, Ian. You get it. You're popular. Because I don't... Am I the only one not in it? I'm never getting in that yet, eh? Yeah. You've got another 20 years there. It's all about, eh? It's all about the nominations. You know, if you pop up, Jane. Hang on, I've got a few mates in there, haven't I? Yeah, you have. Yeah. You know. Who's there?

4:04Roy's got the Sulphur City jacket on, and he's here. That's a nice one. I like it. What's this girl? How did you change the colours of the kit? I changed it back to orange, yeah, for next season. Yeah, with a vote for the fans. The fans vote, yeah. And what's this one? What did you say about the Hacienda? Yeah, it's like the Hacienda. Oh, is that what Dad is? Oh, yeah. Oh, it's not. Yeah. You've done the Hacienda, didn't you? Hey, look. Nice. It's Al Ford. Salford City OK Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing You're a massive Arsenal fan? Yeah Yeah Yeah Are we going to go already?

4:43That left side of Arsenal to be fair there are very few teams that we have to change for but we definitely changed And it was probably a target or a right side If you think about the Invincibles versus Jose Mourinho's Chelsea Wow Who wins that game? Wow. And I see them all in the mix zone and they're laughing at him. Now you don't disrespect my teammate like that. Like, show respect. We can't all be what we are for our clubs. People have to be a little bit more selfless. And I don't think we were. It just didn't work. Oh!

5:21Oh! Oh! You just said, well, them older players are so important to learn from.

5:36Ash, are you the first full-back we've ever had on? Should I think we've ever had a full-back on? Or Dennis Irwin we've had on? Yeah, how can you fear Dennis? Exactly, sorry. Ash, go back to the beginning. We've all obviously got stories of our childhood of when football came into our lives. When did it sort of start for you? When was the first time you really remember? Probably about seven years of age in my auntie's garden. So single parent family, obviously just me and my brother growing up in East London. You know, it's not a concrete jungle, but there wasn't too many places to go and, you know, recreation places to play.

6:12So it was more in my auntie's garden. And just, yeah, always with a ball, to be fair. Loved the game, loved watching it on TV. wasn't good at seven you know my attribute as a young boy growing up was I was just fast but love watching football whenever I could love watching you know Sunday leagues we had a park where I live called Weavers Weavers Field in Bethnal Green we used to just go there a lot it was a recreation park swings and slides and there would always be a football game on so you know stand on the sideline and enjoy watching these guys you know play football and that was when I kind of started to get into it and enjoy watching football.

6:54And then probably the age of 10, that's when I started to... Was your brother older or younger? No, a year younger. A year younger than me. None of my friends really played it around my area at the time. Like I said, there wasn't too many places to go and play. So it was either in someone's garden and in East London there was not too many gardens around with grass. So, you know, I went to Stepney to my aunt's house and we used to just play in our garden there. Who were your early influences, Ash? Who was the person that got you into football or made you think, oh, I want to play and stuff? David Rowe Castle.

7:29Yeah. So probably now at the age of 11, 12, I was on Arsenal's books and had a little bit of growing pains in my knee. I had the opportunity to go to Highbury and see... Who was it? It might have been Physio there. Was it Gary Loon? Gary Lewin Gary Lewin had to come and look at my knee and David Rowe Castle was on the bed and he was like the first one that spoke to me took time didn't really get to meet the first team players you know what I mean they were secure and over the other side but to see David Rowe Castle I was the left winger at the time and the striker so to get the opportunity to meet him and be around him you know you have these people that influence you just by the words just by saying hello and how are you oh, what position do you play?

8:20And then ever since that, we looked a little bit alike. I had that long face, kind of a little flat top. And yeah, I just wanted to emulate him and play like him. So growing up, he was my idol. And you're a massive Arsenal fan? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are we going to go there already? No, be early for that. No, we'll go there. You don't need to worry about it. Talk to us about your... No worries. This is a journey that I think most full-backs have been on, where you start off in a different position and then you end up sort of coming back. Carrey, you obviously even defend the carry. You were centre-forward, you said, and you ended up back at centre-back and at full-back.

9:01Just talk to us about being a left-winger, obviously, and sort of when did that sort of journey at Arsenal... I started as a striker. Oh, you were a striker? I was a striker. Goal-scoring striker, just... Yeah, yeah. I would do all right with the goals, to be fair. I would score maybe 30, 40, sometimes 50 a season. but this is as a Under 11s Yeah but not Arsenal Okay This is you know School football School football club football I played for a team called Puma Bunch of friends from my school the dad decided to start a team and we was half decent we would compete with Senrab who was a top team at the time Yeah They wouldn't let us in their league because two rivals and we played in the Walden Forest League so we was top there and they played in the Echo League which was the best league Did you ever get to play Senrab?

9:46I think we played him in the final, so that would have been Ledley. Jermaine? No. John Terry? JT, Paul Kinczeski, J-Lo Samuel, Paul Nichols in goal. So they had a top Sunday league team. And yeah, I was a striker there and really skinny as I am now. I was slight. I didn't want contact, I just run behind. And at that age group, if you're quicker than people, you're one-on-one with a goalie all the time. So yeah, I started to transition a little bit deeper and back in that back line around maybe 14 when I went to Arsenal and now you're a schoolboy. Wasn't strong enough, wasn't good enough, wasn't technical enough at the time.

10:32To be a forward or a winger? To be a forward at Arsenal. The physicality starts to now impact you at that age. Who was in your way then? Who was the forwards there then? It would have been Danny Boateng. You know Boateng? No, I don't know. So he was like 12, 13, 14. He was the size he is now. You know, he was strong. He could, but he was fast. And he had an eye for goal, left and right foot. I was predominantly only left footed. Could swing the right, but it wasn't great. But he could play off both feet. He could finish. They missed the left winger at the time. That allowed me to play as a left winger.

11:07And then fast forward another two years. And then YTS, first day of pre-season. and I think it's David Livermore does his cruise ship. So I'm in the under-16s, first year of YTS, under-18s, does his knee. They called me over and now I'm a left-back. And that was it. I was an attacking left-back. We had a really, really good youth team, but that was it for me as a left-back. I didn't move from... Who moved you there at Arsenal? Who sort of... Don Howe. Don Howe? Don Howe was the under-18s manager and we had Don Givens. Don Gibbons loved him, loved him. And yeah, they must have just seen something in me.

11:50I like to attack and try to put my foot in. I had to find a way to compete against these bigger players. So it was tackle hard and fast. I could get you from our goal to the opposition's goal quite quick. So they saw that attribute in me and allowed me to bomb up and down and play on the left side alone. Did you like the defensive side of it? all of a sudden you're tackling people in that. Yeah, I did. I did. I think where I grew up, East London, quite tough and rugged and, you know, we played in a cage and you had to be tough in that cage. So, yeah, I did like the physical side. I had to find a way to survive in football and that I had to.

12:31Yeah, I didn't realise you'd worked under Donauk because obviously I worked with him with England and even though I only sort of had probably a couple of years with him, he was a massive influence on me in that couple of years about the seriousness of concentrating on you, defending in training. and details around set pieces. And even if you won a game 2-1, he would come in and be angry at the end of a game. And I'd never really experienced that at United as much where, you know, we won games, didn't we? Sometimes you might discuss a goal, but you won the game. He very much fought the obviously defensive focus.

12:59Would he have had a massive impact on you at sort of that age? Or would he have... How long were you with him for? No, he did. He had a huge impact, not just on me, but I think Arsenal youth team set up at the time. I think the system was good, but I think people like Don Givers and Don Howe, you know, set the tone, set the level, because discipline, your boots are dirty. You'd probably get that at every club, but they were, if you know Don Howe, you know Don Howe, old school. Eric, you would have had a bit of a bit of a coach. Very similar, very aggressive, very determined, coach you to the inch.

13:36If you're an inch out of position, he'd be telling you you're an inch out of position, that type of coach. So he was very influential in, as I said, not just me, but the group. So he set the tone from day one of pre-season. And we knew the discipline was a big, big importance for the club. Yeah. And it just allowed us to... He wanted you to play free, of course, but the details you used to coach was amazing as a defender. Amazing. I wasn't going to throw it forward at this point to this question, but I think off the back of what you've just said, we've seen so many players take that journey from being a winger to a full-back but never been able to get the actual defensive bit right as almost as if to say it doesn't matter as much.

14:19And there's some quite big full-backs who've gone back who are better going forward. But if you said to me at the end of your career, I'd say you were a better defender than you were an attacker. You've actually made the full circle from a left winger who, to be fair, obviously is better going forward maybe in the early days to a point whereby you're an unbelievable defender. So it can happen that, can't it? and people say that maybe it can't happen, he was always an attacker, so you should let him be type thing. No, again, look, people that certainly influenced me, as we just mentioned, Don Howe would have been certainly one in taking pride in actual defending.

14:521v1s, move your feet, show people down the line, whatever my strength was, was speed. So I'm going, OK, Don, how do I defend 1v1? How do I defend an overlap? And he was very specific in the details he gave. You know, what do you want to give up as a fullback? You know, what's my strength is speed. Give up the line and then you've got to work really, really hard to stop across. So that kind of detail was from him. And then going forward in my career, then, of course, people like Tony Adams, Martin Keown. That was the real game understanding of you team. You know, I could attack. If we concede, we concede.

15:28We're winning 10-1. Yeah. but when people's jobs are on the line managers kind of older experienced players Tony Adams would not allow me to let a cross come in the box you know when you talk about I think it's interesting you said about Don Howe because you absolutely rave about him I didn't have anyone like that at England when I was coming through as a younger player at Liverpool it was always about like what you did on the ball really I can't remember any coaching as a defender I don't think I really got coached as a defender I mean like proper detail I think till Benitez did you like that at your life?

15:57Of Eric Harrison we did defensive work one on one work every single day, heading work every single day. I love when you say they're going back about stopping crosses. That seems to be lost on full-backs now, isn't it? I love people have the pride going back to their marital days or even as a young kid, Brian Clough would be the same, full-backs, stop the crosses. It's almost kind of forgotten about now. It's like the basics, yeah. Yeah. But I, to be fair, played with Ash a lot, obviously with England and obviously... I never... I always imagined you were more modern and you hadn't had that sort of what would be old-school training ground.

16:29That's something that I'm learning here today, that you actually... That's a massive impact on your career to be able to have that Don Howe sort of school and then obviously having Tony Adams and... Pat Rice. Pat Rice. Would Nigel Winterburn, he'd have been the first team left back at that time? Yeah, I wasn't... I might have trained with him two or three times, but Lee Dixon on the other side, because he was still in the squad, I can't remember where Nigel went after... West Ham. He'd go West Ham. Yeah. Yeah, so... And Pat Rice was a full-back, wasn't he? Pat Rice was a full-back. So that would help you as well.

17:00Walking with a court, you've played that position. Yes, and I was so raw. There were so many mistakes I made. Of course, like I just said, I was certainly coached the defensive principles. But when you're going into senior football and you're playing against top wingers, I made mistakes. My aggression, I tried to jump in and lunge in and better players was just taking it around me. So I had to learn on the job. And with the experienced players, as I mentioned, people like Tony and Martin, they gave me the character building of going that cannot happen again you know I want you to be right next to me and then I learnt on the job I need to be close to Tony Adams because he's seen himself he didn't want to defend his mates he was an old defender I played with Tony with England I played with Tony with England to be fair it was his principles of back four but staying with Steve Bruce you had to be literally that sort of distance was like everything to them but then I had to do my job and get out and again, stop across.

17:58So it's a sprint, it's not a jog. You kind of humble out, it's a sprint. Do I show him inside? No, because I know Tony's not going to be there so I need to show him the line. No, I need to work my feet. I need to get my distance right. I need to understand the strength of whatever winger I'm up against. So there was a lot of factors but again, as I said, I was learning on the job and I made many, many mistakes. But I'm interested, if Arsenal, when you're winning lots of games and you give up a goal, would you still be annoyed as a back four I love that I love when I hear about that pride in defending you might have won two or three but you give up a goal at the end that way you're like the defenders are fuming with each other taking responsibility Tony was like that Don was like that more than at United to be fair they were very very like sort of traditional in their approach we wouldn't be too bad at United even as a team if we gave up a goal but if we'd won two or three I don't think we came at the end there wasn't an autopsy at the end whereby you're going through that goal we conceded sometimes with England I remember playing against Japan and literally so we came in, we conceded from a set piece and Terry Venables went, well done, and Don's like, well done, and he stopped across him.

19:01I mean, he's a sister, I was like, what the hell's that? And he's, you conceded from a set piece, you know what I mean, before we hadn't applauded, it's out, and he literally came in and sort of dressed people. Don Hull presented us when I did my pro licence, he came in and presented, this is because of the, we had licensed what you got at the end and he was so passionate when he was presenting us. So I can imagine what he was like on the training pitch, this and he was like, you should be proud of David Sean we were like oh my god it was just but obviously a bit cared about the game the only thing you're talking about to go on being there as a defender I think if you win a game 2-1 it's a tough game and you come in everyone's delighted I get that the worst one as a defender is when the game's won it's 3-0 after 70 minutes and you can see it won in the last 5 minutes oh my god you want to kill each other you know you've almost like they've won they've got their goals they're up but we haven't got we want to have clean sheet because someone's been a bit sloppy or someone's switched you off because we win and that was the worst one.

19:54You know what I mean? So it's a late goal you'd be like, oh fuck. I don't know if Tony had like a clean sheet bonus. No, no, no. I was going to ask you about that. That's how Duke was. Maybe they had that so they took pride, you know, whatever, could have been £2 ,000,£3 ,000, I don't know but at that time he's like, I didn't have it. It was important. We don't have any bonuses. Just to think of that though, I don't think he would have had a bonus because he was the same when I got there Exactly the same He was just proud Clean sheet was everything to him He was like We're keeping it clean He was just constant This episode of Stick to Football Is brought to you by Arm Clothing As just going forward You're a coach now Are young Attacking full backs Is there that level Of defensive Knowledge Expertise Detail To be able to Hand over now To players Who are going from That transition From winger To full backs It's a journey that most full-backs make.

20:50You're not started as a full-back, you've started as a winger or a forward and you're coming back there along the way. Our coaches, because they work on patterns, they work on shape, I think the way, the methodology of the game, the data, but the detail of how to defend one-on-one and stopping crosses, is that existent in the game now? I'd probably say there's two parts to that. I think because these players are playing at such a young age, they're kind of learning on job, right? Learning in game. And then the second part of that is, do they have coaches around them that are willing and want to help these individual players get better?

21:27Because like I said, I had Don Howe in age. He was quite old, but he was very enthusiastic and infectious in wanting to better me. Pat Rice, getting older, but loved coaching individual stuff and specific to me and defenders. and then it's now he's going do the players have time to learn? Why don't they have time? Because it's load. It's load. Load. You know he's done too much. Well us with England we get them now we've got 10 days to work we do have to cram a lot of stuff in but we take pride in going we need to hit this we need to work on you know how you jump and head off one foot. I still see defenders now jump off two feet and they just get a little touch and now the striker's in behind he's like no get in your arm across put all your weight on your back leg and push and head and we don't just head the ball away we head to pass they need to practice that so we take pride in doing that the extras and trying to help these players be better because we understand at the club sometimes they don't have enough time but is it a challenge for the top players you've got England on the 21 players and England I'm guessing you dominate a lot of games a lot of your defenders maybe aren't getting tested is that a hard part of your game where you might have 70-80 % possession It's like playing for a top club.

22:45Some of these defenders aren't really getting tested. No, no, no, I agree. So that's why it's important for the coaches to help and develop these players as much as they can, not just for playing for England, but whoever they're going to play for, because they will come a moment, whether it's in a big tournament, where, I don't know, you've not had to deal with crosses in the box. So we might work on crosses in the box. We try to work on every aspect of how we defend, you know, from how we defend the 18-yard box to then how we want to build out, but then the second ball is smoothing it out and we don't just want to head balls away.

23:19We want to find a pass because we want to continue to attack. Even when you watch the Premiership, don't you see whatever we're starting across, but the opposite full-back when balls come in, full-backs don't even seem to know how to defend across. They seem to be all like, they don't even get their body positions, right? Because as if they're not doing it in training. Yeah. And looking to see the camp coming around the back. Because I should have a lot of, you know, obviously you're into the coaching now and you've got your badges and you've got a good role with the FA. and when you're putting on defensive stuff, how much is that you've learned through the coaching and how much is it your actual experience of actually being on the pitch?

23:51Because when I talk to, say, my son is a defender as well, I'll say I'm not a coach, I've never put a coaching practice on. Anything I ever say to him is through me being in that position in a game. How much do you sort of give them from sort of a coaching aspect, but actually your experience that maybe a coach who hasn't played in your position and making them understand exactly what it was like in that situation in a game. Yeah, I find it, look, I enjoy it and love the coaching aspects. What I tried to do on my journey was, you know, this is why I went back to Chelsea under 15s. So I can just kind of learn what players need.

24:31I look at the full-back who I was coaching. He's a 14, 15-year-old. He don't have the same profile as me. He don't have my mentality. I'm not going to tell him how to defend like me. I'll just give him scenarios. Look, as a principle, we want to, centre-backs cannot go inside the six-yard box when we're defending wide balls, wide crosses. So I would just try to give them scenarios of them understanding what type of cross is going to come in, what kind of profile is in the box that you're up against. So is it a big nine? Is it a small nine? How does he move? Where does he like to attack? But try not put me in that scenario.

25:14I'm putting you in that scenario. If you're six foot five as a fullback, you can't move like me. I'm not going to tell you how I would defend. I would just tell you, look, this is where the danger can come from. Body shape and body position might be a little bit more open because you need to see more of the pitch. but I did find that that was quite hard right at the start I'm going I would do this I would do that no we're different I'm not going to ask you to move and stay close to Tony Adams like I did and then be able to sprint out I'm quicker than you I've got my attributes short sharp five metres I can jump to people really really fast a big fullback this day and age maybe he ain't got that profile his attributes are not like that so I have to learn and try find a way to coach you by using your strengths and your weaknesses would you all give me the same answer you know when Rashford cut in the other night and he puts that ball a lot of cross in swing would you all give me the same answers three defenders there to say when Rashford steps in he's going to put in if you're defending would you be trying to step up then as a centre back or a full back no just say he's cutting but you're defending the cross what would you say when someone cuts in like Rashford he's going to whip one in would you be saying you're trying to squeeze out would you all give me the same answer or would you give a different answer when you see an in-swinger he's cutting in as soon as you know he's going to be putting in I think you're alright about principles of defender would you be saying let's get up lad as soon as he stops the ball to come back you have to hold your line at that point I think what falls down the line girl no no what I mean is if Rashford goes to go down the line on the left and then turns back to go across as soon as he turns back you have to hold your line and try and step up and just hold that line because they're going to carry on going in you're hoping so you hold your line you don't drop back in because Kane scored the other night from inside the 6-yard box if he's stopped to go back onto his right foot the minute he stops on his right foot you have to hold that would you give the same answers would that what the defender would be thinking when I mentioned before about I felt like the first time I really got coached in real detail on defender was Benitez so we would work on that so if a left winger is going down the line and as soon as he checks to go that way we'd be up we would be and that would be like almost obviously not as good as the Arsenal back four but when we were with Benitez we were very like clean sheet everyone knew exactly what they were doing you take a chance on somebody making a little run I wouldn't say we'd take a chance I think we'd know exactly right this is the scenario he's going down as soon as he stops and checks back that way we're going up that's more as a group though yeah it's more about individuals 1v1 that's more it's very difficult for a full back to want you chop because the forward is always in control so once he chops then I give you what you're saying you get to a point then you have to hold but then that's more as a back four or back five whatever yeah i have to say i don't know what you think about this but most of the players i played against my career 99 of them as a right back the left wingers were left footed yeah it only start i always remember playing against figo when he was on the left because you'll see you had cristiano on the right and that was tough for me because i almost wanted to show him the line to stop the cross but he'd always know he was cutting back that big that that did provide a problem for me i i I found that difficult.

28:28And for us. No, because it was unusual. Unusual for us to play, but now every winger is almost opposite footed. So full-backs must be more used to it now in terms of what's going on. I just want to ask you about it, because I'm looking at you from a personal... Obviously, when I played with you and played with you in England, you're really quiet, quite unassuming. If you said to me that you would be a coach, someone who's obviously given instructions like you are, how would you sort of differentiate Ashley Cole, the player, from a personality perspective, to Ashley Cole now as a coach? How are you speaking about the game in detail?

28:57I think I've always been quiet. I think, yeah, I was, you know, I had my moments. But from the age of 13, 14, I've always been the one, you know, I try to be respectful to my teammates, respectful to my elders. I was just a quiet, unassuming little boy, to be honest. Even when I went in first teams, I wasn't the one ollering and shouting too much in a dressing room. But when I come on a pitch, like I said, you know, I've had to find a way through my life. And that was a little bit aggressive. It was a little bit fighty. I can't fight. But when I walk on the white line, that was, you know, I wanted to be a footballer.

29:39So I had to fight to be a footballer. I had to find ways. Yeah, you were tough. Yeah. You screamed at Gary, remember? Yeah, I know, a few times. A few times. But no, yeah, I always saw it as like a jewel. You're trying to take my, not livelihood away, but a little bit. You know, you're trying to take my job off me. You tear me a new one, I'm out of the team. You're taking my dream away. That's not going to happen. So I had that kind of mentality. And again, that was a little bit Don Howe, Don Givens, then Tony Adams, Keown. Then they really influenced me in how I was as a character. And then, of course, going through my career.

30:20Like you said, I was never really involved or wanted to be a coach. When I went to LA Galaxy, I started to enjoy watching and studying football and understanding. I was getting a little bit older, so I had to understand football a little bit more. I couldn't just be the Ashley Cole of the Premier League. I couldn't run. I couldn't move. We're playing in different weather and conditions. So I had to find ways to play against these young kids in the MLS. And it was tough for me. Especially there. Because the wing is cheap. They're lively, isn't it? Yeah, they're just always staying high and wide and, oh, do I go?

30:52So I'm like, OK, let me start studying the game in a different way. Not as a player, as a coach. I started to take a few meetings, do some unit work. And I thought, well, if I do want to be a coach or a scout, I need to understand the game more. So then that's when I came back from LA and started doing my badges. What's your ambition as a coach in respect of where you'd like to be in a few years' time? I definitely want to give it a go you want to manage yeah yeah it's quite hard when you're number two to be measured on if I'm good or not you know you only know by people and what they think of you obviously I work for Wayne I don't know how he you know thinks of me as a coach am I good am I bad I can only get that through feedback so it's quite hard to measure if I'm half decent or not but yeah I'm definitely feeling I'm getting ready.

31:49I'm nearly there. I am different. You know, I don't speak as well as certain managers. I have to find my way in the game. I have to find my own personality, be authentic. But, you know, like I said, as a player, maybe I didn't lead in the dressing room. But, of course, going back to the start of my journey as a coach, I found a way to lead and push people and bring people on a journey with me. we're just trying to tell stories and make these players believe what I'm saying and I think all that will help when you do go into a manager job all that going back into the Chelsea under 15 that's something which I regret not doing getting that ground going into like under 18s or or whatever because I went from playing to to stay to managing so I missed all that actual coaching part of it so it's when I look back now like what Wiltshire's done at Arsenal yeah look back and you think that's probably something like an apprenticeship in terms of coaching because that's obviously the important part of it then I'm looking I think I need to get good coaches around me then I think you're right now for the 2025 football team I mean obviously I went in for four months it was a little bit different but the thing that I felt most naked on was when I went on the grass first time to coach a team a lot's happening you're doing 11v11 I mean we've all been there and you think you look at some of the coaches like Roy Hudson or Steve McLaren or Karloski, all the coaches at Ulef play, they make it look really simple and calm and easy.

33:17The spacing's right. They know when to stop it. All that is a fine art of hundreds and thousands of hours of work. And I found myself well short in that department. Yeah, but everyone's got a different journey. I don't think that's for everyone, honestly. I think now, though, Roy, as a coach, you don't think you would need to be that? Yeah, but you get people around. Yeah, but I think sometimes, like Wayne's experience, or if you can work with young kids, I think that might work for you, R Street. But other players, if it's time and opportunities, Sometimes you have to take on a job. And whatever you say about Wayne might look back and go, but there's still experiences that you can fall back on and use them going forward.

33:50Not everyone go down lower leagues and get 100 games under. You could lose your job in three months. No, I mean, maybe just doing grass work on the 15s and 18s side where it's a bit more out. Maybe, especially if you're working at Chelsea or a Young, where you're working with really good quality players. Again, you want to be careful you don't drop too low. And again, that's not for everyone. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by and clothing. Super 6 are giving you the chance to win£250 ,000 this weekend. It's completely free to play. Just predict six scores this weekend and the money could be yours.

34:22And don't forget to join our mini league. You must join our mini league using the code S6-STF. S6-STF. Get your Super 6 picks in before 3pm on Saturday, the 22nd of November for a chance to win. 18 plus TNCs apply. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Ash, let's go back to when you break into the Arsenal team. And you break in, what year are you breaking? It would have been maybe early 2000. Yeah, so apprenticeship 98. So yeah, early 2000. And it's a whirlwind for you really. Your success straight away. You win the title in 2001 too. Yeah. Look, I was just absolutely buzzing to be around these players.

35:13At 16, 17, I never ever imagined who I would be around, the players and what club I would be at. But then you have to quickly understand that you must be doing all right to be in and around these players. You must be at a level that they feel you can compete with these guys and you have to stand up. And yeah, making my debut was really nerve wracking. But again, I think the life lessons I learned and the people that I had around me helped me through it. Was it after the Palace loan? Yeah, so that was massive in my career, I felt. I went from playing reserve football, which back then was hard because you're playing against senior players anyway.

35:56but going to Palace fighting relegation going from playing in front of a man and his dog to now crazy Palace fans that are fighting for their lives you're fighting for people's jobs I think they was in administration it was tough but I've come from Arsenal I'm cutting tubigip every day you know for my shin pads they're like no no no son you've got to keep them for your first day from day one to the end of your loan You know, tube grip. You used to cut those every day as well at Arsenal. I did not. Arsenal, yeah, but not Palace. Way to keep a tube grip every day for this. And then it hit me like, I'm fighting for something different here.

36:37Steve Copper was my manager and I loved him. My first training session, he was like, who is this kid? I was way off it. Like I said, I was shy. I was intimidated by new people and they were lively. Clinton Morrison, Theo McKenzie. I knew you were going to mention Clinton. Yeah. I love him. You've got to love Kidd. Love him. Oh, yeah. But they were lively, so I was going into an environment that I've not experienced, and now I cannot think I have to survive. Yeah. And, yeah, that made me really go from a kind of a boy to a man, and that's, you know, that's where I really felt. Where did you play?

37:15Was you playing further forward? No, I was left back, but I was just bombing up and down, taking people on,

37:24influential in the final third. I can't believe you said I can't fucking attack. I'm not going to admit it. Yeah, so I had the license to bomb up and down and yeah, it just meant something to me and then so now I've gained that experience of what it means to really play for three points and be a group that's fighting for something and yeah, you go back to Arsenal and play with top, top players who, and at the time I just give him the ball. I didn't have a personality now to go Is it Perez and Henry that are playing at that time when you first come in? Yeah when I first come in Perez on the left Thierry Ray Parler Vieira Adams Keon I mean I always say it's that left side of Arsenal to be fair there are very few teams that we had to change for but we definitely changed for that left side for about three or four years your movements with Henry and Perez were to be fair destroyed most teams The right side where you had Ray Parler, obviously you're a bit more solid.

38:25But on the left side, it was just breathtaking and unbelievable. He was never coached. I can't believe it. I used to think at the time that Wenger was a real coach, a real detailed man, and that he put these sessions on where all these combinations and rotations of Perez coming in and Henri coming out, and then you go. I always thought that was coached. That was probably a target or a right side. I didn't want to say anything. No, no, I wasn't. No, we just, I don't know why. Of course, when Thierry first came, I think he played on the left. Yeah, I played on the left. I don't know how good he was when he played off the left.

39:01But, yeah, that adjustment just worked. I like to bomb up and down. Of course, Robert, right-footed, likes to come inside and open the pitch. And Thierry liked to open his body and finish from his right and open the goal. So, yeah, it just flowed and just worked. It was that organic. It wasn't planned. We talk about front threes, don't we, a lot? You know, in football, you talk about the Man United one in 07 away. We talk about the one at Liverpool, and you think about maybe front twos of the past. But I can't remember almost like a three down the... I mean, you had a great relationship with Beckham.

39:37But in terms of like a full-back winger and sort of striker, sort of combination, can you think of anything else like that? Is it weird for a defender all of a sudden to be up against players, popping in the mid... you know, you were used, you were probably, Rob, I'm against you, you're the winger, you're trying to get, and all of a sudden lads are going in pockets and you're like, I don't want to go in there. It did create problems. It took us two years to work out and in the end, I think we actually sort of half-cracked it where if you followed Perez in as a right back, that's what they wanted you to do because then Henry would spin out and then your centre-back's going out before you know it, you've changed your centre-back and your full-backs and then he would come in either in or out before you were done and that happened to a lot of teams.

40:16what we actually did in the end was just stand still so we literally had we literally had say Rio or Yapstan it was Yapstan probably at the time or maybe Wes and me and then in front we'd probably have let's say David Beckham or Ilan Solskjaer and Darren Fletcher would play and the four of us as a box stand still and sometimes you'd be thinking what's going on but if the four of you were together and you stayed in your positions there was always one of us near enough to what was going on you were rotating to us so actually we ended up just standing still against you in the end of the box and it's the only way we could do it but we used to pack that right hand side so let's say Roy was playing we'd play three in midfield sometimes against Arsenal where Fletch would come to the right hand side Roy would obviously stay in his position and then Scholesy would be in there but we'd actually have Fletch just sat there to the right in that channel where Perez would go into in that pocket and in the end we did okay against him it took quite a lot of working out that over a year or two and then when all that was gone enough Freddie Lombard he was great at making runs Freddie Lombard do you?

41:12I'm real that's what we try coach these young players and just older players or whatever his timing and movement was unreal runs between full back and centre back he was unstoppable unstoppable do you think you were the I'm trying to think now we do punditry on the game the Premier League we talk about rotations and players move and full backs going into midfield and constant as I said movement I always say that team that you're talking about was the toughest team I ever played against in terms of even European teams because of that do you think they were the first team to have what we sort of we take for granted now where everyone's just popping up in different positions even when we were playing against you and you were an unbelievable team yeah we were 4-4-2 but like you knew you were up against I still think we should bring it back I don't want to be giving them too much praise either you know what I mean bring it back a little bit come on but Cara has said to be fair that's the best team he's ever played against a lot of teams that play against a lot of teams that played against that team say that they were the hardest team to play against and I can understand why you would with what was happening because it was just unbelievable did a bit of everything who was the big who was the big voices and leaders in that dressing room who were the influences that you sort of went in and thought you know at the start or at the very beginning when you're first going in Tony Martin Dave Seaman Baldy Lee Dixon no Baldy was Baldy's gone yeah he was gone so I think from your team and your generation it was just Tony left Martin Keown left in the group Lee Dixon Dave Seaman Ray Parler I would say they were the main aren't they so important those senior players you're on about learning off them it's so important because we didn't really have a lot of young players coming through I think I would have been probably the only one who was in and around like I can't think of anybody else that broke into that team we had some top players by the way Paolo Venazza was top top player our youth team was like unreal we didn't win the FA Youth Cup, we lost to maybe an Everton team, but we battered them but lost the game.

43:18But we had... We lost. But we had a real successful youth team and we had Andrew Douglas, I don't know if you know him, top, top, top, top players. But they just couldn't make that final hurdle. Arsene Wenger came in and he still had a big, big top squad. So we had the odd opportunity to come and train.

43:48Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. The ill-discipline. We need to know where there was anyone else. Oh, my goodness.

44:06My phone's always off. There is a God. There is a God. Brilliant. Jesus, Roy, that's not a girl. Ash, Ash. Oh, I'm sorry, it's a showstopper, that. I'm rage, come on, I need a mini-roll. Where was I again? He's just saying, well, them older players are so important to learn from me. Do you know something? I'm raging with that. You've got more jobs on silent. You've got YouTube and your algorithm, there's an amazing press conference of him with a guy that's got a phone. Who's wrong with that? Who's that? As I've already said, rude. Can I tell you a quick story about that? I'd done an Ipsos game last year for Sky.

44:47The guy whose phone was ringing came over and apologised. He came looking for me. And I asked him, I said, well, why didn't you switch it off all them years ago? He said, I was nervous, I didn't know what to do. But he apologised for that. And I apologised for that. Oh, don't be silly. Really. Whoever's made that phone call... Whoever's made that phone call... Whoever's... All right, let it go Ian. No, we can't let that go, Roy. We've got to find out who that number was. That is brilliant. I'm so happy. That's made my day, that. Ash, where were we? Influential people. Yes. Yeah, so they were top and integral in the Arsenal way.

45:28Yeah. I did have a few opportunities. I was an Arsenal fan, but I didn't have money to go and watch them. It was through a friend. He got me a ticket and I would go. but walking through the marble doors and there was some heritage there and some history and they continued that kept that legacy and understanding of this is Arsenal Tony had them shirt tucked in armband he looked the part and the foreign players that came in the Thierrys, the Vieiras I came in later than them but they also continued that so I had a huge amount of respect for these guys and understood I need to be part of that group and respect.

46:06A rare place to play when I'm hybrid. Yeah. What a stadium. What a play. What a too small. You weren't too small. Oh, I loved it. It was so tight. No, it was great for you. It wasn't too small enough when you were playing. I know. Honestly, you'd had half a second to decide what you could do on the ball. You'd be like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I hated it. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Ash, just quickly on Arsene Wenger. What was your relationship like with him? at the start respectfully there wasn't kind of relationship he showed he's trusting me by playing me you know I don't know how we I don't know his relationship with the older players the senior players because I was just there you know you're in a dream you're in a bubble but I just turned up for training trained oh I'm starting wow they didn't really say a word to me so he didn't speak to you a lot now?

47:04Not really and I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it was a good thing, he let me play my game because I don't think with the mistakes I was making at that raw young age maybe if it was a pep now, if it was a clock, whoever it is now these top managers, maybe I'm out it wasn't play from structure, it was you make mistakes, learn from your mistakes and the people I had around me helped me through my mistakes And so it went from a obviously like a professional relationship where he wasn't speaking to you too much, but believing... But not in a bad way, by the way. No, but believing in you by playing you.

47:38And then as it moves into sort of like the invincible team and sort of, did it, as you got older, did it start to develop that relationship or not? Did it? No, we would be cordial. You know, we had the conversations, but it wasn't a deep relationship, how I had with other managers. And again, I'm not battering him in here. That was just our relationship, you know. and yeah, I just felt our relationship was strong because you're playing me week in, week out. So I'll just tell you one story. A time where I thought you should have spoke to me, we played one of my first games, Old Trafford. You batter us like, was it 6-1?

48:23Yeah, yeah. I got hooked at half-time. Was that when Steppenhoff was playing with Grimaldi? Yeah, and Bex was literally just stepping into your position, dropping off right back and just going laser, in behind goal goal goal goal I get hooked to half time and I'm devastated thinking and it was my fault because Bex is delivering balls behind but it wasn't my fault I couldn't get nowhere near him I'm like my career's done you know as a 19 year old we go back to training the next few days you know no one says anything to me and I'm on a bike recovering and I'm down yeah Lee Dick says you're right and I'm like nah like no I'm not I'm done he's like has the boss spoke to you and I'm like no no he should speak to you I think the elder players spoke to him and he hooked me because he didn't want me to continue that disaster it wasn't my performance it was he didn't want me anywhere near that because it was embarrassing he never spoke to you about it but he never told me that if he would have told me that might have I don't know who knows but that might have also allowed me to think I'm untouchable I can play bad and still get in the team but what he didn't speak to I'm like alright I need to get my head down now and figure out why Bex kept dropping off me and lasering balls behind and again that will go down to the me learning on job he's going I'm going to take his right foot out of it I'm going to now defend more inside so he can't hit the laser he can bend one around me when he's deeper because I know Sol Campbell and Adams will protect me.

50:04When we get further down the pitch and now he's in crossing areas, I'll stop the cross and I'll take his right foot out of it. But they were the details that made me want to learn and understand the game a little bit more. So it was a great experience for me. It was an eye opener saying, I've got to be better. I need to really figure out how to stop these players because they are world-class players. Obviously, we know that you left Arsenal and that's massive, obviously, for you. You played in an unbelievable team. You've grown up as a fan there. When did the sort of contract stuff, Who was your agent at the time?

50:33Stella. Yeah, so your conversations, how's that move in terms of your, to get to a point whereby one of their own, one of Arsenal's own, playing in an unbelievable team, gets to a point whereby, where did that sort of feeling of like, they're disrespecting me with what's going on here, when did that start? As mad as it was, I can't tell you exactly when it starts, it's more through the agent, but literally I would have signed for anything. What were the offering, Ash? What were they offering you at the time? So what were you on and what were they offering you? We do a lot of finding out what people are on.

51:06But enough water's passed under the bridge now to understand. I think it might have been 60 a week or 55. That's what you wanted or that's what you were on? That's what they kind of offered me, which I was delighted with. Like I said to you, and I don't think it was incremental, it was just five years. I would have signed for... I still wanted to be given my worth, but as a young boy, I'm living my dream. I didn't care. So what happened then? I didn't care the amount of the money. But it was... When they reneged, that was... Oh, they pulled the contract on you? That was my issue. That's what the whole issue was about.

51:53It's not about money. I would have signed for it. That was my... So why did they pull the contract on you? I don't know. I don't know who was you dealing with at the time which one at Arsenal look I hear different things Mr Dean involved Mr Dean Fisman Keith Edelman and I'm a young boy I don't I don't know I'm getting they've offered you a five year deal on that money and then they've come back to you a few months later you're not having it yeah so then I go to a World Cup or Euros I don't know which one do well yeah like now competing on a that's 2004 yeah that's the one where you play against Ronaldo and you mark him out the game not mark him out but you do a great job on him basically is it 2004?

52:33I think it's 2004 oh it's two years okay yeah 2006 maybe the World Cup 2006 I left 2006 yeah so it's 2006 but then maybe it was 2004 and it just rumbled on for a year and a bit maybe it was and yeah I come back from having a quite successful tournament and it was like agent calls me and it's right they've reneged on it a little bit is take it or leave it five grand less and what i want i don't care anyway i'm saying i want people to understand i don't really care because i know but when someone tells you their whole career and i've never ever asked from the age of 17 i've never said i want big money i want big money i want the same as it was never like that give me the contract i sign it this is my club this is you know everything i've known and now of course with that yeah there comes a little bit of stature now I am getting bigger but I'm still not asking for in my mind crazy money and it was just the thought of them telling me every day you know you will be the future captain of this club you are the heart of this club you're going to be the next Tony Adams and all that to then go but actually you're not actually worth it and we don't value you as a person and what you give, not what I've given for the club, but like my journey as a nine-year-old.

53:58To me, that matters. From nine years of age, I've given you everything. And then to do that, I'm like, cool. So it's principle, really. No problem. It's fine. Do you think that's a little bit to do? Because there's always, you know, all of us have been sort of local lads and come through somewhere, but, you know, come through big-sized clubs. Do you think it was because they sort of played on your loyalty? They thought you wouldn't leave. You're a local boy. Yeah, yeah, because, you know, having conversations, I would go around either Mr. Dean's house and Arsene Wenger's house and, you know, they would tell me how much they love me and value me.

54:31But, and I'm not blaming anyone here. Like, individually, I don't know what their conversations were behind closed doors. I don't really know. I'm just going off what I was told and the conversations I had. It was, it's not my fault, it's not his fault. You know, we know you want to stay. And I'm like, yeah. but we can't do it can't give it up okay then you shouldn't have said it in the first place yeah so once you've then sort of said to them well no you're in age on what you're offered initially it's a little bit less did they not then over the next sort of six months think oh my god we're going to lose Ashley Cole here over five grand maybe did they not come back go back to it this is the thing like I have to respect them as well financially could they have done it I don't know was there internal issues with the money, I don't know, new stadium, they had to finance that and pay for that somehow.

55:25So I don't really know the real deep ins and outs of their conversations and their rationale for taking it away. But in my head, I'm going, you took it away. Did that doubt in your mind, what they think of you as a player as well? It's a little bit, they were my love. You know, that was my club. And I just, I did feel a little bit devalued and underappreciated a little bit. So that was where my head and heart was at. I was like, nah, you've took my love away. And I don't think it needed to get to that stage or be like this. Did Darsen Wenger get involved in this? He must have got involved in this.

56:05Yeah, I think he was trying hard to keep me. But again, I really don't know. He never spoke to you about it or he never came over and said... It's interesting, I think, to be fair, Sir Alex, he would definitely get involved at a stage like that. Would he even get involved in yours, wouldn't he? Because that's starting to get really nice. It's all over the place, isn't it? It's terrible. I think a manager, to be fair, of that stature and that control at that time, because he built two or three great teams and he'd won three titles by then, he must get involved in that and deal with it. Maybe he did.

56:40But again, like I said to you, I was shy and unassuming. I didn't want drama with, this is Arsene Wenger. He's gave me my debut. I respected him and that's why you have an agent to negotiate that. They shouldn't actually, even the flip side, they shouldn't be coming to me asking me, like, oh, take this. It should have been really simple, really, shouldn't it? It should have been simple. When's the first contact with Chelsea? When's that point where you think, right, I'm going to have to leave? Once that moment happens, when is it? The aim was, and the conversation was about going abroad. I was, and again, through what I was told and heard, I was going Real Madrid.

57:26Had they come in for you at that time? I don't know how deep they went, but it was... That was a club. That was, I was going to have conversations with another agent to, I could pre-sign for teams abroad at the time. So it was Madrid, kind of the Barcelona. And again, I don't know how deep it was, but it was, you know, I'm looking to pre-sign a deal here to go abroad. Things changed, got married, didn't actually want to leave the country in the end. And maybe a year and a half later, I remember sitting in my box, I was injured at the time and sitting with my agent and then actually him calling me outside my box and going, you're never going to believe who this is.

58:11It's Chelsea. And it was like, okay. Was that Jose directly or? No, I don't know who Dave spoke with. And within that, there was the old tapping up stuff as well. You know, I was seen in a hotel signing with Chelsea. I didn't realise that being where I was was a caused all of this. I'm an innocent boy. I walk in the front of a hotel, go in the front of a hotel. There was no hidden meeting. I walk in to have a conversation with a different agent. What month was this? Was it like before the end of the season? Jesus Christ. No, no. No, what I mean, was it before? No, I'm telling you context. Was it before the end of the season, obviously?

58:54Yeah, it would have been before the end of the season. Yeah. I went to jail for lunch, I thought. Sandwiches. I probably didn't eat either. So that's what you're saying. There's no way you're going in covertly, are you? You're going in because you're going to meet an agent. I walked in the front of the hotel. Again, that's the press. It was a waiter said, oh, there's contracts on the table. Oh, my God. I thought it was a waiter. This is a waiter. We were having a conversation to have pre-talks. It could be Madrid, it could be... it could be so what happened so Marino just happens so what are you going to the hotel you're not going to the hotel to meet Chelsea the agent it was his birthday so this is what I found out after it was his birthday can I say the agent's name Pinis Harvey yeah Pini good friends with them I don't even know if Jose was there it might have been Peter Kenyon and again maybe Jose was there but he was giving him a present and maybe they had a meeting before I've walked in they walked out it was that simple in my brain in my mind that's what it was They've done you up.

59:55So is this before, you know, before you just said someone called your agent and it was Chelsea. This is before. This is before. Oh, that's before that. This is before. Oh, OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was the drama. That's how it all kicked off. So then newspapers, you know, tapped up. He's going Chelsea because a waiter said there was a contract on the table for Chelsea. The papers have run with that. I had to deal with all of that and then we play against you again at Highbury and I think it broke that day. Wow. I think that's when Ronaldo might beat us 4-2. Was that the one where you screamed in my face?

1:00:30Probably. Was it that one? No. What one? That was the total one, the 4-2. Yeah. Yeah, it was, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was arguing because I knew you were leaving. He's jumping ship, lad. He's jumping ship. I loved it like that. Marino was a weirdo, wasn't he? That was, even that argument was brilliant, wasn't it? Just to finish off this conversation around Chelsea and Arsenal. Yeah. Arsenal are offering you 55 and Chelsea, you're going to Chelsea, what are they offering you? You're upset with my youth. No, I'm not. I'm just not, what I'm saying to you, we're talking here about, we're talking about, because people listening to this will have, people listening to this will be 18, 20, 21 year old at a company that they've come through the ranks at and they won't be getting the pay and the pathway that they deserve and they'll feel like they should be offered more.

1:01:12This happens in real life as well. I'm not going to say how much I've got at Chelsea, but I tell you close enough, it was maybe five or six grand more than what Arsenal. Wow. It wasn't a lot more. It was 60. So it wasn't a lot more now. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. You know what would be interesting to find out is to find out what happened there with Arsenal over five grand, six grand. What has happened? Why has that gone to the point where Arsene Wenger's not getting involved? Maybe he was, right? I'm not saying he wasn't. It doesn't make sense though, Ash, because like you're Ashley Cole, you know, a left back, future of Arsenal, everything was for five, six grand.

1:01:49That development's got to be arrested and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on? No. You know what I mean, Roy? At the time, as well, you were the best left-back in the world at the time. Yeah. Yeah. There is an element, though. There is an element of sometimes with managers or football clubs, they do think that they can get full-backs cheaper and that that's not a priority position if you've got a budget that you can play for. They disrespect the position of sometimes a full-back. And you can laugh. You can laugh. You let them. You can laugh. Your team have fallen off the edge of a cliff this year because of full-backs.

1:02:23Fucking hell. I knew you'd do it. Honestly, fucking hell. They've disrespected full-backs and tried to bring in two young lads and all of a sudden they fall off the edge of a cliff. Anyway, Ash, going back to it. I want to ask you a question about if you think about the Invincibles versus Jose Mourinho's Chelsea, who wins that game? Wow. Take your time on this one. Who's the better team? I'll ask you a different question. Who's the better team? Who do you think is the better team? Invincibles or the Chelsea team that you play in the Undermarie? Because they're both amazing.

1:02:54Look, I love both, playing in both teams. But what I will say is we couldn't beat that Chelsea team. I get that. So it was tougher physically. Chelsea? Yeah, when Jose came to the Premier League. We struggled with it. We could just not beat them. Yeah, we struggled with it. We couldn't break them down. I think they win the league two years in a row. Whether that's the tactical element, whether that's their set-up better than what we were, Jose effect, but we couldn't beat them. Yeah, they're a good sign. That's why I don't put the Invincibles as being the best team that I played in, because we, I think, could beat them.

1:03:38I don't think we could beat the 98 team. They were physical, they were massive. and the same with the Jose team of mid-2000s. They were just physically massive and just very difficult for us to play against in terms of that type of thing. It's interesting that you say that. That Drogba was a player, wasn't it? Yeah, Drogba. Jesus. He was... He changed it, didn't he? He was unbelievable. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Who's the player? I don't remember, we always look back with our careers with rose-tinted glasses, but I don't remember anybody getting the better of you because I feel like you always were one-on-one brilliant.

1:04:13No, I've been ripped. Yeah, who's given you the biggest doing as a sort of left-back where you thought, I've been done there, they've done me like this. The player that was the toughest for you. Just one-offs or... The one you caught the pitch that I couldn't handle him. Joaquin, Spain away. In the Burnabout? Wow. Yeah. He was quite old as well, didn't he, Joaquin? I got dragged after him. Did you? That's why you threw an orange at someone, wasn't it? Oh, what? Oh, sorry. No, he didn't. You threw your armband down the floor, didn't you? It's like an orange. I should have been sent off. That's why he took me off.

1:04:52Because I just didn't touch the ball. What was it about Joaquin? What was it? Because he doesn't give me the... When you think of Joaquin, he wasn't tricky, tricky. No, but he's clever, wasn't he? No, mate. You get him running at you and he's doing the stepovers and he was physically strong. Go left. Yeah, he's bigger than you think. It's great when people say that to a defender. He's not that quick, is he? Yeah, yeah, run against them. Try run against these lads. And he was like nutmegging me. And of course it was the racial stuff as well. So mentally I wasn't there, but he taught me a lesson.

1:05:23I want to talk to you about that. You said just that mentally I wasn't there. And I've spoken about this quite a lot since. It's the biggest level of abuse I've ever seen a football player get on the football pitch from a racism point of view. The monkey chants were consistent and constant all the way through the game. And I've said, like, looking back... Sean was playing in that. Sean, yeah, yeah. And I've come in the dressing room, you're a left-back, I'm right-back, I'm number two, you're number three, and never asked you whether it mentally impacted you. We just literally used to get on with it when things like that happened.

1:05:53To be fair, I used to get on with it. You just said there mentally you were struggling. Have you ever said that before? Because at the time, I remember you came out publicly at the time. What impact did it have on you, that game? Because it was obviously horrific.

1:06:10Impact. No, I think after it, because no one ever really spoke about it, it just kind of got brushed away and you forget about it. In-game, of course, it was affecting me. I couldn't focus. Obviously, there was a little incident with the manager as well where he half froze the ball at me. I don't know if you can remember it. Or I go to get the ball from... It's been his manager. Yeah. Have a go with this? and didn't he say he was with Omri and Reyes yes so the ball's bounced out and I've gone to run to get it off the sideline and he's like he's either threw it away or threw it at me and then I'm like gonna argue with him and and that kicks on again yeah just mentally I just wasn't wasn't there and I'm getting ripped so it was a bit of both but when you're seeing like nans and granddads you know doing the monkey chant at you in the crowd it's like ooh wow but I had it before Valencia away, I had it as well.

1:07:13With Arsenal? With Arsenal, one of my first Champions League games. It was similar. And it's like, how do you react? You know, in real life, you're probably, on the street, you're probably fighting. On the pitch, you know, you're the one that's going to get in trouble, so you have to have a car. That's still happening in Spain. I don't know exactly right now, but like Vinicius Junior still has that now, doesn't he? Sort of in the last sort of year or two. Yeah. Ash, we were talking last week on the show about the, because Raheem came to see me in 2016, and then obviously we were talking last week about Jude and about what he's sort of going through a little bit at the moment.

1:07:52You've experienced that, I think, to be fair, all your life, haven't you, in terms of you never really got the credit for your love. Do you feel that that was down to, obviously, race in respect? You constantly were the best player in your position, constantly the best player in the world. Do you feel you were constantly disrespected and underappreciated because of that or not? No, what, because of my colour? Yeah. No, I don't think so. No, no, no, no. No, not in my opinion. I've got a quote of it. When Raheem stood up in 2019, he said, I praised Raheem for when he stood up and was brave enough to do it because I couldn't do it because I thought no-one cared and no-one's going to listen.

1:08:35again it's a kind of my fault because when I got abused I didn't come out but I just feel like I didn't have the support. I think Raheem has changed it and he's got people on his side where I don't think I had that. That's what made me think, did you not think people supported you to be able to at the time? And I can understand why because to be fair, that dressing room in 2003 when we came in, we got on with our lives, we didn't come in and sort of support you. Yeah, I think there's two sides to that. There's the football element and then just how people live their lives. And, yeah, the minute I got in that dressing room, it was, like I said, it was football-based as well because I'm not playing well.

1:09:15But then certainly, yeah, no one supported me really. Not just me, but Sean. Who else was there? I don't know if it was Emil. It was a couple. and I remember just sitting in like the hot tub or they had like a plunge pool I think in there in the dressing room and I remember just sitting in there going like one day like I admired this club you know it's top top club is that what you're going to get when you play here? I don't know so yeah mentally it probably did affect me but again going through my career I've probably had a lot on my shoulders you know I've had to go through a lot and I've always been, I keep quiet.

1:10:02I never want to blame anyone else. I never want to put my stresses onto other people. That's just how I am. But now growing up, I understand that's probably not the right thing to do. You need, you know, release. I think if you talk about mental health, I probably would have been diagnosed as to go through what I've been through. It was crazy, but to me it was nothing. I just, you know, just brushed it off as if, oh, I have to deal with this. I have to be strong. I don't need to speak to anyone. I'm not saying I had mental health, by the way, but I think what I went through was hard. It's so true.

1:10:36You know, divorce. Yeah, there is. In the newspaper. I think what we were talking about on Jude, I think there was a perception of you around that time of maybe being a bit... Flashing. Flashing. And then, obviously, I got to know you more than the England squad, and I was thinking... It's not like that. It's not like that at all. So I think that's happening with Jude a little bit now as well. where you were talking about there's a picture made of you and it's hard it's hard to come away from that it's hard for people to understand that actually I used to go around to people used to say oh what's Ashley Colerick and it's like he's a good lad but they couldn't get their heads around I think everyone thought oh he's flashy he does this he does this well I think that's I've been able to do now you did have that the one you've just mentioned there about like private stuff as you get divorced But you did have a spare effort for about 12 months where you were constantly in the papers, sort of negativity, constantly around that sort of Arsenal-Chelsea thing and obviously, you know, whatever goes on off the pitch.

1:11:36But it did feel like that. I was going to say, I think the media, and again, parts of course caused by me. I'm not silly to go, it wasn't partly inflicted by me. Of course it was. But I would say they definitely had an agenda against me. One million percent. 1 million percent, 1 million percent. And I think it came from we, I think firstly I'd done, so we spoke about David Rowe Castle. He passed away. I was just getting a new car. I said to Amanda, our press officer at the time, take the car. So it was Audi. I said, take the Audi TT, sell it at David Rowe Castle's auction, each charity night, and you keep the money.

1:12:19So I was giving David Rowe Castle and them a car, right, to support the family or whatever it was. Amanda, the press officer, of course, doing her job, saying, we need to publicise this. You've got to do some interviews about it and let's get the auction price up for your car. And I'm like, nah, I was shy. Like I said, I was shy. I didn't want to speak. Didn't have any media training. It was just me. No, you never did speak either. No, no, no. You were always really quiet in the England camps. But in the end, she persuaded me to do an interview with maybe the Times, I don't know which one it was, about this car.

1:12:54They went, okay, you're not going to do The Sun, whatever. You do it with a respected newspaper, more respected newspaper. You do it with the Times, and you'll get more respected by doing it. So I'm like, okay. So I advertise this car, selling it, I'm giving it away. I didn't want to give it to David Rowe Castle's auction because he was my idol and for the reason I said and spoke about before. They'd done another article about this article saying I'd done it for publicity. So after I'd done that, I'm like, I am done. Said to the press officer, Amanda, I didn't want to do this interview. I wanted to just give you my car and give it to my idol.

1:13:34Don't ask me to speak to them again. I am done. I'm getting ripped. I'm doing this for publicity. I'm like, what the hell? A year, two years later, we're again at a tournament. when, oh, Brazil, when Dave Seaman gets lobbed. Yeah. I'm behind him, still my teammate, England, Arsenal. I'm behind him, walking through the mix zone. David, can I have a word? David's like, you know, on the brink of retiring, just been lobbed, we're out of the World Cup. No, no, I'd rather not. And I see them all in the mix zone and they're laughing. Laughing at him. So as I'm walking past, Ash, Ash, can we have a word?

1:14:15and again, my aggressive nature. Told him. I said, fuck off. I said, you treating people like that is a legend. Yeah. He's just been lobbed. Respect him. Oh no, no, no. We wasn't laughing at him. I said, F off. I was fuming by the way. Go, no, you don't disrespect my teammate like that. Like show respect. They called again, my press officer and she told me this after and said, Ashley's done. Said, who does he think he is? blah blah blah wearing an earring he's flash and i'm like that that's actually not me but i am done with you i'm never speaking to you again and that was where it kind of escalated from there and i didn't back myself every time a story come out i'm just like it's on my shoulders it's on my shoulders i just take it i just take it i just take it and that a little bit was my fault this day and age for sure i'm i'm going on instagram and twitter and i'm backing my points up but back then you had to just deal with it a little bit in silence.

1:15:15And that's just how I felt. And that's how I was as a player. Am I right in saying that you didn't speak to the press again for the rest of you? I probably had to do the odd interviews, but I was like, I'm done. I'm done. But then that just gave them ammunition to just keep going, keep going, because they knew I wouldn't go back to them. So I was just sitting duck with them. Yeah, they could just say anything. I mean, obviously you had an incredible career. What do you make of the England, And, you know, obviously we've all been part of that generation. What's your thoughts on looking back in terms of why we didn't win and why we ended up the place that we did?

1:15:55I'm really reflecting now and being in the position I am now, coaching and understanding and working with England seniors and seeing the dynamics of it and seeing what they have to what we had to see, and again, how we try to coach them and our thought process, so as managers, as coaches, I think we could all see, in my opinion now, I'm going, it just didn't work. I think to get all of them players on the pitch, so to get out that three midfielders in, to get all of the top players on the pitch together, in my opinion, I feel it does not work Like if people don't, and I say swallowed ego, we can't all be what we are for our clubs.

1:16:46So I go, Paul Scholes cannot be the top Paul Scholes we know with Steven Gerrard in the team. Because Stevie G cannot be the Stevie G in the team with Paul Scholes. Lampard cannot be the Frank Lampard for Chelsea with also them two in the team. So tactically, was we set up to win? Was the players open enough to sacrifice a little bit of themselves? Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. People have to be a little bit more selfless. And I don't think we were. I think Scholes, he wanted to hit his Man U Diags. Bex wants to hit his Man U Diags. Stevie G wants to get the ball from us defenders and drive and push and get us up the pitch.

1:17:33maybe too quick. Us as defenders are going, I want to attack. I'm not getting the ball in behind. So that's my strength, attacking, attacking. You know, even if I'm just making overlaps to give someone else space, but then there was no one else in that pocket because I really want to go behind. Waza, when Waza comes in the pocket, you know, did we get enough people running beyond him? No, because Waza turns in the 10 pocket. Who we got running behind has no support because our midfielders might want to get the ball from all the defenders. It just didn't work. Do you admire Tuchel then right now in terms of he's leaving basically players out who we all think are probably great players because they don't fit the system or they are in a similar position?

1:18:23He's not trying to fudge you by maybe putting them all in the team? Yeah, yeah. I'd like to give myself and Lee Carsey some credit actually. LAUGHTER You laid the foundations, Ash. Yeah, that's it. Again, I do understand the media. It is tough for managers and coaches to leave big, big players out. But ultimately, if you want to win, you have to give on something. And whether people with jobs are on the line. and again to us if you want to say I'm a pundits now we have to give something up pundits maybe don't know the actual details of what we're going after but also as coaches we have to understand what comes with that you leave out a top player of course we're there to be criticised and asked the question of that's football but we have to live and die by decisions that we make and leaving people out it will burn you if you don't win and don't succeed dropping top, top players but if you win you know you're going to look like a genius in the end.

1:19:36Ash I'm going to ask you one last question as I know you've got to shoot so you've got you've got to pick one of Bellingham Rodgers Palmer Foden Eze Eze could play to the left I think a bit more I just wanted to say the name It's fine Eze the only one can be number 10 we know that Bakayo Saka's going to be on the right you think that probably Eze or Rashford or Gordon's going to be on the left who out of that who that because I think Rice and Anderson are going to play who's playing there out of all those who are you picking having worked with them all who's the one that you think he has to play they're all top top players incredible we all know top top players but if I have to select the one I go Jude simple fact that

1:20:29moments moments there was moments where you know we're on the sideline also going does he look gassed here we need to take him off when we was in charge we need to take him off Jude are you okay you want to come you're gonna have to come off run boom moment goal boom moment goal boom moment goal you can't pay enough money for that big moments in games when you need someone to deliver, he will deliver. So, in my opinion, that would be my selection and my player that I would select. But again,

1:21:08that's me. That's, you know, he's got his own way of thinking. Yeah, but the thing is, with what you're saying now, I think everybody around the table, with what he's done up to this point for England, that alone is what you'd probably say he just, he pips it. It's not like we're trying to say, oh, it's got to be infant. It's because he's earned the right to do that and that's why we know he'll be there if he's not he's a character as well and you want players with character as well who get annoyed when he's not having the best game or he's getting taken off but on the front of the players do you all do that?

1:21:41The team has to function the team has to function well and so you know again it's what are you giving up? Is Jude going to give you something that Cole Palmer don't or Phil Foden don't And is Cole Palmer going to give you something that you might not be able to give you? That's, you know, you're going to have to swallow that and that's what you're going to live and die by. But again, taking people on this journey, like I said, how we've done it, I think he's influential for that group. He's saying that Palmer's talented, isn't he? Yeah, yeah. My goodness. Yeah. They all are, aren't they? Yeah, all unbelievable.

1:22:18Palmer in terms of raw talent. Yeah. Got us on the team. Ash, thank you very much. great to see you and all the best to you in the future hope your management career goes well when you finally get in there thank you thanks Ash well done well done Ash well done Ash

1:22:42sorry about the phone again nah don't be silly really sorry about that that was hilarious yeah I hope it is honestly that's the last we need to know what is that that was hilarious who was it that was me It was a spam number. You're silent. I thought I had on silent Gandhi.

1:23:05It's like... I can't imagine what would happen if that was me. I'm so happy that's happened. Make sure that goes in. Oh, it's going in. Right in. I love him. I'll decide that.

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