David O’Leary: Arsenal’s Double Dream, Talks to Join United & Nights Out with Roy | STF EP 129

0:00Gary Neville: Just before we get started, a quick thanks to our partners and clothing. We hope you enjoy the show.

0:09Gary Neville: Here we go. This is better.

0:15Gary Neville: Oh, I love these sweet things. Get them away from me.

0:21Gary Neville: Popcorn. Roy, you'll have to help me with the chronological order of the island thing, island tournaments and stuff. the water you must have you play with him yeah they're just like briefly day of us off I didn't realize so then I was reading things that if you saw fell out with Jack Charlton a little bit I think so yeah because he passed it

0:43Paul Scholes: passed it into midfield and Jack was like I passed it to you David played in the 1990s you remember the penalty penalty yeah it's just mighty He's got a decisive penalty, wasn't he? Against... Name the team? Do you remember the team? Oh, I like that, Jill. Thank you.

1:04Gary Neville: Nice, Jill.

1:05Paul Scholes: Is this our tea?

1:06Ian Wright: Hey, D-bone!

1:08Paul Scholes: Make it official. Gary, I've got your tea.

1:10Gary Neville: David, how are you? Are we OK?

1:12Paul Scholes: Hello, are you OK? Good to see you. Hi, David. Right, it's not good to see you. Good to see you, mate. It's all good to see you. You're having a tea, though, yeah? Please, yeah. And I'll have the honey like you, mate. Right. Yeah. Right. Did we play together?

1:25Ian Wright: Yeah. Dave's last game was the FA Cup final, wasn't it? He went out on a high. Against him? Sheffield Wednesday. Sheffield Wednesday. Classic. Remember when he went to the most boring Cup final of a Saturday? Bore the pants off everybody. Had to go back and do it on Thursday night.

1:42Gary Neville: Did Chris Woods make a mistake for Sheffield Wednesday? Was it Chris Woods or was he called the keeper? Yeah, it was for Sheffield Wednesday. Andy Linegan. No, he was close. He just knocked it up into the goal. Nice fella, quiet fella. Not like righty when he arrived at the club in that way. Stick to Football is brought to you by Anne Clothing. He picked the team the following day. He said, the lad from Arsenal, you're playing. You pass to Mick McCarty and he'll never play for Ireland again.

2:13Paul Scholes: That attitude, you know. If you ever came up to watch the Irish senior training, having been out all night, you'd be thinking, this is a pub team. Jack would be on the news, he went, tell you what, never seen a pair of looks so shaggy. For all he thinks, he's the manager of Man United, but when you get it officially, you've got to make all these other decisions, it's a bigger thing. I see Jimmy gripes about me, you know, and Jimmy came back and demanded money that club couldn't afford. The players in the restroom, I didn't have to cheat him up, they went, we're not going to let Jimmy score today.

2:42These are nutcases. I said, they closed me down and the ball's thrown out of me. I said, when you see the second half? If a cup was right, he was in the room, you've gone to bed, if a cup was there, I'd better take it home. And Ken said to me, we were wondering where the cup went.

3:02Gary Neville: What was righty like, David? Gary, you know what, like yourself, you'd seen players, good players come to a big club like Manchester United and just froze, I couldn't... It's like when you sign a manager, you've got to realise at a big club, can he fulfil that big expectation? I've seen really good players come to Arsenal and just couldn't cope with the pressure and that. But Rydy you could tell straight away he was... When Rydy arrived I was there about 12 years but you thought Rydy had been there 12 years. In that way. And you could tell straight away he was going to be... Good 12 at conference.

3:37I loved the way Rydy went when somebody kicked him because it made him angry and he knew he was going to score. Bails out a lot of times. But when you've got a good defence and you've got a little fella up front, it's a little cocktail. So you think, you know, 1-0 to the Arsenal stuff. It's always that good.

3:53Paul Scholes: Matey, did you feel confident or was it a bit of a...

3:56Ian Wright: No, it's just that, and it's not disrespectful to Palace, but you just felt the difference in the quality and the organisation and how much it meant if you even played poorly as Arsenal at the time. I remember they were champions twice in the three years. I got the 89 and then 91. You went into some dressing room. Yeah, and that's the thing. So you just go in there and it was... Honestly, I didn't like the training. I was terrible with training. I was more nervous in training than playing in the games. And George was demanding, you know, so... And training was demanding. And I think where Ian had to get right and other lads who couldn't cope was, and you know that Man United, that...

4:36You won on the Saturday. That was gone then. Wednesday, you hadn't got brownie points because you won on there. you had to go and deliver again and again and again and that's what kept you on your I don't know what they sussed me out we're talking about that cup final they threw me away after 20 years took them a long time to suss me out to 20 years but every year you're under pressure because new people have been brought in but I enjoyed that because I grew up in that culture and it was the thing that it didn't get me that I took things for granted it kept you on your toes that you knew So you had to deliver all the time.

5:12There's always somebody after your place, whether it's a new sign or a young player.

5:15Paul Scholes: Were you offended by that boring arse? Was that a bit of pride for you? I thought it was a bit of pride, yeah. As you know from the very centre-backs, Tony Adams himself in the end was a big... We kind of looked at each other and thought, we're doing the right thing here. Saliba and Gabriel are a similar way. There's a bit of pride in your defending. They enjoy doing it. So even if you were training up and you gave a goal, would you be fuming? George would be. George would, yeah. Come in. I mean, we used to kick the sugar out of each other, right, myself. We'd work on it all the time, right, wouldn't we?

5:50Ian Wright: Yeah. And you'd come, you'd get a Saturday game, you'd think, you've won 4-0 or you've won 3-0 or mostly 1-0. That's great. And you'd think, George might do a bit of attacking stuff on Monday. Back to the defending stuff, you know. Back to the defending stuff.

6:06Gary Neville: What were the sessions that you were doing? Was Don there? Gary, to finish off, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, my wife reckons one time I jumped out of bed with me hand up.

6:17Righty knows Joy and she hardly comes to a match. And I put her off. She came early and watched me playing football and she hasn't been seen really since. She thinks I did jump up one night and screamed.

6:29Gary Neville: I was going to change the question off what you just said there. Because I played with England with Tony Adams. And I played with great centre-backs at United like Steve Bruce and Gary Pallister. But Tony was a different animal around defending in respect of leading the line, holding the back line, organising and understanding how to play in a defensive unit. And his communication was incredible. Would he have got that from yourselves? Who set that to him? Was that Don Howe at Arsenal? I'd come in, you'd drive into the Arsenal training ground. He was a young apprentice and he kind of used to do my boots and that.

7:01And he was always this, all right, Dave, all right. How's the wife and kids? Everything like that the weekend. I used to spell it on Monday morning saying all this, you know. And in the end then, you know, you'd see him, I'd watch him in the reserves. I thought, he's got a great chance coming through. And then he made his debut with me. Then I ended up rooming with him in that way. And we'd become really good friends. And he'd kind of say to me, you're boring. You do stretches in the room. You don't really drink and that type of stuff, you know. That definitely didn't influence him in any way.

7:31It was no good with him on that. but he was a strong personality he was a leader and he used to kind of say to me they've let me head you worry about everything around me which suited me anyway and that was him and he went out with a way of keep it clean she let me attack the ball and you I've got you to think worry about me around me anything

7:52Paul Scholes: after that people who speak probably highly of not to and and the way he's He turned his life round and probably he turned around too late, he's talked about it. I think Arsene Wenger was great when he came because he introduced so many things that people are introduced to now but he was so far ahead of things and he did address the problem Tony had and he's talked about. One thing Tony's turned out to be great, he's turned his life round and he's dedicated himself to help people and that other side which he does a brilliant job on.

8:25Gary Neville: The 89 game, which to be fair, if it was a Premier League game, it would get a lot more publicity than it actually does because obviously it was the old Division 1, which just seems to somehow get ignored. And that must infuriate you because it's probably the most famous title win of all time. The Aguero's there, but that one is just monumental. And the way, Gary, through a tragedy, you've been put back, you know, of that got to the last game. And a few weeks ago, we all heard about this Bournemouth game where it's the worst I've seen Arsenal play and it's the first time I've ever thought these could be bottling here today, the league.

9:00And we kind of made a mess of it as well and we had to dig ourselves out of it. And for all George Graham, you know, told us this, told us that, Tony, myself and a few others got together and went, look, it's down to us to deliver. We've got to bail ourselves out here. George can do the training right, present us on the pitch right, but when that referee blows our Anfield, we've messed up here with stupid games at home where we drew, we lost, brought Liverpool back into it and we've got to do it ourselves. So as a group of us thought, we've got to go to Anfield. I think what helped us, Gary, at the Anfield was they were a little bit negative, that as long as they didn't lose the game in that way and ask that to score too, They kind of were a very, not a nervy way, but very conservative way.

9:51Didn't come at us the way if they'd have needed to win. But we went in at half-time and I played a match back and the people on the half-fight, the experts were saying, or before the game even, Arsenal need to score a quick goal. I remember George saying to us, we don't need to score a goal as long as they don't score a goal. Came in at half-time, he went, clean sheet, we're going to get a chance in the second half. it's about taking those chances and those chances came in that way and I remember that second where John Barnes where he turned, why he didn't take it you know to the corner he turned in and in the end it came to John Lukic, John Lukic kicked it down.

10:31I remember looking down the pitch that time and the ball bounces, it's flicked on by Alan Smith, Michael Thomas is running on, he flicks it over, the ball seems to be trotting and that ball has taken ages to get there. I think somebody's going to come back and loop it off, the ball goes in, game kind of over. I was joining up, I missed out on the celebrations because I was going to Ireland, we were playing Hungary on the Sunday. I reckon all the Irish lads were there but the fella who jumped up after that said it was Kevin Sheedy, he was running around the place being this Everton player, couldn't believe the celebration.

11:07And I got to the game on the Saturday. I got to Saturday, joined up with the Irish team and no sign of Jack. But was told that we're having a meeting at 6 o 'clock in the evening to look at the Hungarian game. Came there at 6 o 'clock, I was tired, came up, a lot of large congratulating you. We're all looking around, where's Jack? Message from Jack, he's fishing. You can get on with it. and we watched a bit of a video, we thought it was a wind-up, even Jack showing us a video of the match. And Jack said we knew you'd get on with it, you know. So was he fishing?

11:44Paul Scholes: Yeah, he was, yeah. That was great. I mean, he picked the team. I wasn't his greatest, you know. You know, Jack wanted the man ball, everything put in the net, you know, and I wasn't the greatest of passing to another centre-half or passing to Liam Brady in midfield or giving it to Roy Keane, you know. and I remember when he banned me and I missed about 40 internationals I remember he brought me back against Spain he didn't say to me all through training and that but just before he went out honestly I remember him saying you pass to Mick McCarthy and he'll never play for Ireland again that attitude you know you know kind of get the ball up there and that was Jack you know you knew where you stood

12:25Gary Neville: did you like Mick McCarthy? I was a bit like that

12:28Paul Scholes: to be fair To be fair with Jack, he came in, Ireland was good for him and it was likewise. He came in, this is the way he was going to play. Did he want really people like myself for that tippy-tappy centre-halves? Because when he picked the team, he used to say, lad from Arsenal, you're playing. I remember when I scored the penalty in the World Cup. You know, he never really said... Those penalties, those penalties, right, you know it. I mean, the game stopped, we got on with it. I took the last one, I could have easily been taking the first one. Everybody went for one, two, three, four. I ended up with the glory one, the fifth one.

13:13Jack came in afterwards, came in, he went, I knew you wouldn't miss, and walked on.

13:18Gary Neville: That was Jack. Why were you kicked out for 40 games? What was the reason for that? There was an international, the FBI had put it on, meaningless game and Arsenal in the bottom line said he didn't want me to play in there. And I withdrew with a dodgy grind injury, if you know, and I kind of got banned for not turning up really. But I think it suited Jack deep down, Gary, that I wasn't his type of player in that way. Who were the centre-backs then that were in there? Kevin Moran and Mick McCarty were the two. He didn't want even Paul playing at the back. He put Paul as a great player who could play holding midfield.

13:58Ian Wright: Simply because he just didn't want to play out. I remember going with Jack and we played Germany. He used to look at me a little bit. This is Franz Beckenberg's team. You know what they're going to be like, tippy-tappy team. And he'd be looking at me and a few others like... I remember in America, the World Cup with that. and stopped on the side street talking about Italy and the same thing again. Maldini and Berets, you know what they're like, tippy-tappy. They're going to be tippy-tappy around, you know. But his teams were effective. It was effective. It was like, you know, Jack's change would be Tony Crascarino came off, Niall Quinn would go on in that way.

14:40That was his way. It worked, it simplified it.

14:44Paul Scholes: It suited the Irish players. Yeah, without a doubt. So the game would have suited you now then with obviously centre-halves and more ball playing on them. I was down on the pitch last night and I walked down, you know the nights are getting longer now. You walked out and you thought it was the first game of the season. You know how good it is. The pitches are just unbelievable. I mean the hard, the quick, lush. Tybree not always good back in the day, didn't it? The highbreech pitch was hard. Was it? You think so? Yeah, bad. And my touch at times came out that used to run. I wasn't the greatest to do it.

15:16David, going back to that game at Anfield,

15:19Gary Neville: your team that night, you always met the famous Arsenal back four, don't they? But that team that night was Winterburn, Bold, you, Adams and Dixie. So you were back five. What he'd done, Gary, because we'd messed up George in the few games before that, he brought Steve Bold back and we went to a three. And then I kind of thinking back, or whenever it happened. He went back to a four, he took Steve Bould off. In that game? In the game. And went back to the original way. Was that half-time or in the second half? No, second half he took Steve off. Maybe with half an hour to go, not 20 minutes to go.

15:54And brought who on? He brought...

15:56Gary Neville: Because in the midfield was Roacastle, Richardson and Thomas and it was Merson and Smith. Yeah, that's right. So who did he brought on? Martin Hayes? Perry Groves. Perry Groves. I've been a long time since I watched it now. He just thought we've got two... If you're going to play a system like that, I think the important thing is having full-backs to bomb on. We had a Lee Dixon, Nigel Winterbourne who could do that. So it suited them, the system. It suited as well Steve and Tony that they wanted to go on mark and you worry about everything else. So it suited the play. It's all well saying let's go wing-backs, let's play a three.

16:37I think you've got to have the players that complement that. And it did. I never asked George afterwards why he changed it, Gary, which is a good point. But as I say, he brought Steve in, went that way, and then he changed. He didn't say even half-time now, if this is not working, 10 minutes in we're going to do it.

16:55Paul Scholes: And you never asked questions, David. If he said we're going three to the back, you just get on with it. There was no... Yeah, yeah. Because he was one of them powerful managers, obviously. Yeah, and there was always... I think there was a rivalry, whether it was two Scots or not, two personalities on the blocks. Alex and it kind of even... Did they get on well together? Yeah, but they wanted a beat. And you could feel where lots of other games were preparing, you were playing somebody. But when you seemed to be preparing for Man United, it wasn't Man United, you felt like it was Alex. you know, type of thing.

17:31I get that a little bit, Mikel might say differently of when you're playing Man City, of I'm playing Pep, I'm playing the teacher, that way a little bit, comes into it a little bit that way as well. But it was definitely that way and that rivalry then started that way, you know, the two fellas wanted to, managers wanted to beat each other definitely. And then within the two groups there was a...

17:58Paul Scholes: Where was the big fight at Old Trafford? What year was that? It kicked off?

18:03Ian Wright: Yeah, it kicked off. What year was that? The year before me. 89, 90, wasn't it? 90, wasn't it? 90, everybody was... No, no, thank God. Ramacliff. There was people getting chased all over the pitch. Definitely. I was six of it. Gary, you know what, you were saying about six, I think he made his debut in Hungary. and it was my first row with him in the midfield. First time you buy him. First time I read him. First, he was moaning at me and I was telling him a little distante. If you get on with your job, we wouldn't have to do my job. Going off the pitch, you know.

18:41Paul Scholes: That's where you got it from. Do your job. In the nick, I went, who do I go after first?

18:48Gary Neville: Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. We've all talked about it, actually, about players who make us feel comfortable when we go into the international team and then players sometimes who you think make you feel a little bit awkward how was it when you went who were the players that did set up

19:01Paul Scholes: yeah well Dave would have certainly been one of them yeah and I think when you get into a senior group and you're still what out of 1920 obviously I had my first year at Forest and I like the fact lots of players don't make an effort for you but then when you're having a bite of teeth it's not necessarily what's going on in the training ground it's when you're having a cup of tea and a bit of a chit chat and Dave would have definitely been a help to me Paki Bonner at the time would have been some senior players just giving you a little bit of guidance and especially with my time leaving Forrest's contract stuff.

19:25Paul Scholes: So that was all. I definitely appreciated that stuff. Yeah, that's where the senior players come into it, of course. A little bit of guidance. Kenny blames me. I turned him to Man United. Not my stuff, you know. He didn't talk to me for about a year, I don't think, after that one, you know. Why did you introduce him to Michael Kennedy? I said he needed somebody to look after him.

19:43Gary Neville: Oh, was Michael Yor, representative as well? That's interesting.

19:47Paul Scholes: Again, I was with the Irish squad and I think obviously I was on the verge of moving over and I didn't have someone looking after him. You asked me, did I have an agent? I'd have a solicitor, do you want to speak to him? Just that type of conversation. Obviously, Michael ended up doing my deal.

19:59Gary Neville: It's interesting that, Roy, because you think about you being young and impressionable coming over from Ireland. If that conversation said, go to a different agent that was completely different. Michael was solid, wasn't he? Yeah, but I would appreciate David's advice as well. Someone's always giving me advice about go here. Gary, that's exactly what he was. He was solid. Didn't want any publicity. So the fact that he'd been with David, and I knew David liked his few Bob.

20:20Paul Scholes: so if he's looking after David, I'm good. Gary, I'm useless. I'm well taken. I'm not biting him at the moment. So, yeah, but you need bits of guidance, of course. That's dead interesting, though, where you say about sitting, having a cup of tea and a chat, and you said about Tony Adams asking you about your family. I think that's gone a little bit now in teams because everyone's on the phones and... Do you know what? You drive along now on the coach and you look behind now and you think the coach is empty. But it's not. Everybody's on their headphones. You're coming back on the plane from a game last week or so and everybody sits there on their seat, headphones, laptop, picture.

21:02Paul Scholes: Remember the brilliant chats we used to have with Ireland? Of course, you're there to win football matches in the training. We'd be in a room with Ireland, obviously, you'd be sharing with somebody. Mick Byrne, the physio, would come along and go, about half ten, eleven a night, wouldn't he? Tea and sandwiches outside. Tea and sandwiches? I'm just fucking... And everyone would come out and he'd drag you out, wouldn't he, Mick? And you'd have that little chat late in the evening over a cup of tea and a sandwich. They were... Brilliant. One of them little chats and the stories from every player.

21:28Paul Scholes: Because, again, when you're playing against lads at club level, they're the enemy and all of a sudden you're all sitting together having a bit of a chit-chat. It's team spirit, isn't it?

21:35Gary Neville: This is a quote from you, David, on Jack Charlton. You said, what I learnt from Jack Charlton was that he didn't give a sugar about anybody. Brazy was a tippy-tappy player. Oh, no, yes. Beckenbauer was a tippy-tappy player. Jack's organisation was crap. His coaching was not the greatest, but what I learnt from Jack was how he relaxed the players. Even at the end where you say, I thought the way Jack treated me for three years was disgusting, but I didn't dislike him. It's interesting that even though you obviously had a bad experience with him, there's still that element of respect and sort of the fact that...

22:02You know, Gary, I think I'd have got back in earlier than three years, but it became such a national issue over there for every squad, that in the end where kind of Jack let himself go, we had a good young lad called, fella called Pat Scully, that came from Dublin and he was playing in the reserves. He was never going to make it and he was always going to go back and play in Ireland. But the Irish squad got so decimated that and I was probably playing the best football in my life. Arsenal were delighted that I was out of the squad because they were, I wasn't getting picked that way. And I was probably having the best run of my career probably.

22:36and Jack picked in a squad and he picked Pat Scully and that caused even a bigger issue that he wasn't even near the Arsenal team and people realised that it got very personal in that way. The best thing I did was not say anything and I think when I got picked, I got picked, we were playing up in Newcastle, got back to London that night after the plane journey back and a secretary of the FAI rang me up and said can you be in Manchester on this Sunday you're picked had to get my boots off the arse and all that got up to Manchester

23:18Gary Neville: Jack didn't ring you to see you're picked again Jack didn't ring me after three years after three years so he was fishing then I had to tell I had to tell I had to kind of tell arse and George was had an attitude of I think in the roundabout go and tell him to take a hike but I thought Jarrods was doing it more for Arsenal's interest than mine. And I said, no, I'm going to go up. I'm not going to give him the... How old were you then, David? How old were you then? I must have been maybe 30-odd then, in that way. So I got the stuff, got up to Manchester, no sign of Jack, seen the lads, lads kept saying thanks for turning up after, you know, the way the usual lads say to Mick, thanks for turning up.

23:59got up the following morning we're flying the charter out of Manchester and Jack didn't say anything to me we trained he said to me then said to me on the training ground coming off can you play left side centre half I said yeah that way and didn't say anything else he picked the team the following day said the lad from Arsenal you're playing

24:25Paul Scholes: I'm not kidding he was talking to Niall was he And then, as I say, just before the game, he said to me, you pass to Mick McCarty, you won't play for Ireland again. Meaning, I don't like my centre-half's passing. I want it nailed up there. And that was...

24:42Ian Wright: Did you do anything to him there? What was the problem? I withdrew from a squad. And that was it?

24:51Gary Neville: You pulled out with injury like most players have at some point. Yeah. But, Gary, I think it was my own fault in many ways. that. He just, he didn't, I wasn't his type of centre-half. You know, Eddie Gray, a great lad at Leeds, he told me so many stories about the Revy time, the Leeds time, about Jack, what a stubborn mule he was and how about, you know, all these, you know, getting this ball to Johnny Giles and all and wanting to pass and this, and he hated it. You know, he wanted it, he believed to get the ball up there into the penalty box and, you know, send the forwards, man ball and everything should go into the stands, the whole lot.

25:30And I was this... And I kind of... Each time you used to name a team or talk about a team like the Beresi, the Becker Bear, it was like, you know what their teams are going to be. I remember him saying, you know what Fran's team is going to be like, it's going to be a tippy-tappy team, they'd be looking towards somebody like myself. That was his way, but he had a clear way of, this is the way we're going to play, Lump it or like it you know this is the way we're going to play

25:56Gary Neville: I mean Do you think that's why Ireland was successful as well because of that probably And I think at the time he came along he had a group of players it was like a club he couldn't pick from about 40 it really picked itself but they were good players you know there was there was a good player now within that there was one great player say Liam Brady and that it wasn't going to be Jack's player you know I remember I think we played Germany in Dublin and I kept passing the ball to him and that. He took Liam off.

26:27Paul Scholes: 30 minutes, wasn't it? Yeah, 30 minutes. Most embarrassing. We came in at half-time, Gary, and Liam was sitting there and he was fuming. He was absolutely fuming. I thought that was bad. Liam deserved better than that. If you wanted to make your point, do it at half-time in a friendly, but don't do that to him. I thought it was very... But Jack was smart with it all though. I was watching a documentary a few years ago and Jack was again interviewed. And of course, back in the day, you'd turn up on Sunday night, your game was a Wednesday, it wasn't seven or ten days together. And he did at that point, the ball, that simplicity, being the next centre-half, going, I'm not going to complicate it.

27:01I've only got like one session,

27:03Paul Scholes: because obviously the lads are recovering after the match, and the game's mostly on the Wednesday. And his message was at the time, and I keep it simple for him. You get to knock it forward, get bodies into it. How did you do with that, Rob? Because you obviously like players to play. No, but I got it. But again, at the time, when I was a young player, I was thinking, there's got to be more to it than that. But I was playing under Brian Klopp. Brian Clough's messages were simple, not as aggressive as that in terms of getting forward. So Jack, I got Jack messages quickly and obviously that was on the back of Ireland having a bit of success.

27:29A bit of fun when I got into it, he went, we're playing this way and we're never winning,

27:32Paul Scholes: but Ireland were doing well and we were competing. So I'm just going to fall into that. So I didn't mind the fact I wouldn't be getting much of the ball, because I said, I'll just press when I have to and I get back. I had kind of no issues with it, but I think Jack, he was definitely, he was smart with it, keeping it so simple for players, because he always said I only have him for one session I'm not going to start doing loads of tactics and we know that was his beliefs anyway even if he had us for two weeks but he just said I'm not going to complicate it for these players and again there was all these sayings in Ireland Jack put in the corners put him under pressure there was actually a song about it and that was Jack's way of playing and there were some decent players as well a lot of lads playing for big clubs Dave was at Arsenal lads at Liverpool United lads lads at Celtic no there was some very very good players Was Nal Quinn the forward then?

28:12Paul Scholes: Was that one of the reasons because he obviously had the height and he'd always He played 4-4-2, so you'd have Niall going off, or obviously another striker spinning off, and Aldo was on the scene, whoever else was around. Everybody was saying about those penalties in that World Cup was a tactical team. You'd finished, we were together for so long that before we got on the coach, say in Moult, to go back to the hotel, have lunch, up in your rooms in the afternoon for dinner, Niall Keane used to get in gold, and we used to have this thing of put a tenner in, three penalties, and there was a tenner, he was running the book.

28:47And we'd get on the coach and he'd walk up and down Quinny saying, Gary, you're 50 quid up, you're 20 quid down. Jack missed the penalty early doors and bailed out the tenner straight away. He didn't get anything else after that. And that went on for about seven weeks. And those lads who Quinny owed a lot of money to were the ones who really took the penalties, honestly.

29:11Gary Neville: So you're talking about basically preparing for a World Cup penalty. So that's the way you kind of... Penalty shootout, you basically had like a bit of a... Every day was going on, honestly. But Quinny, as we'd drive back to the hotel after the training, Quinny'd walk up and there was an envelope saying, you owe me 50 quid, I owe you, you know, and he was totting it up all the time.

29:30Paul Scholes: It was those lads who usually took the penalties. Remember, Dave, on a Sunday night, we'd report on a Sunday, if you'd have obviously played a Saturday or a Sunday afternoon, you'd get over and Jack would say to the lads, lads, you can go tonight, but I want you back maybe about midnight. I'd be sitting there as a young lad going, yeah, midnight will do us. 10 pints there easily and then he go lads go but 12 is a bit awkward Jack alright lads be back for be back for 2 o 'clock so I'd be delighted at 2 o 'clock but the senior players are going Jack but if you're out at 2 o 'clock you're probably in a nightclub then you're not going to get alright lads I'll see you in the morning right I'll see you in the morning and we'd go out all night drinking and he puts training back in the afternoon and if you ever came up to watch the Irish senior training on a Monday afternoon having been out all night you'd be thinking this is a pub team and I'd see Jack we'd be in our beds that Monday evening and dying from the night out.

30:13Paul Scholes: Jack would be on the news. He went, tell you what, never seen the players look so sharp. And Gary, I remember we were playing England at Wembley on a Wednesday and we join up again on Sunday. We've got two tables at the PFA Awards on that Sunday evening and the lads are going out for Sunday lunch and it turned out a real long Sunday lunch and about four of us turned up to occupy these two tables at the wards. The England team were on them. And Robbo, Brian Robbson said to me, where's all the lads? I said, Robbo, you know, they're all back in bed. They're all just coming from a long lunch. And that was them, you know, that was his way.

30:56He had a great way of, you know, relaxing. He stuck to his beliefs already. Do you think he's got Arsenal players, United players, Liverpool players? Did anybody ever, like, question him?

31:05Paul Scholes: I think he was winning, suppose he. When you're qualifying, you can do what you want when you're qualifying. Sometimes we'd go up to the training pitch and Jack would come up with his tracksuit bottoms on, but he'd have his shoes on that you'd wear with a suit. Gone out. Gone out. You'd come out after the bus again, Jack gave the ball, lads of ball each. You'd knock it up to him and he laid off and you're shooting for 40 yards. That's your warm-up. He'd have his shoes on and laid off him. Yeah. Like these shoes.

31:59Yeah, yeah.

32:04Gary Neville: David, just taking you back to Arsenal, I mean, I couldn't believe this when I saw it, because I think I played a lot of games for United, 602, and I played for United forever. You played 732 games. Gary, sorry to... It's unbelievable. Now, before they suss me out, some geek at Arsenal recently has come up with... It's more than that, is it? No, no, come up with, like yourself, United had a total up. They had a running of how many games did you play, all these big games all over the world over 20 years. Just a thousand five games you played of, you know, like we'd go on to. Pre-season games, I mean, yeah.

32:40I was thinking, where did you get that amount? Where did you get that amount? But look, you had to play, you'd get up some mornings, Ryan always joined that, no interest in football. but say you can't play today, you had to get up and play, you had to get out and play. You were on good appearance as well, wasn't it in those days? It was all that. And plus you had as well as that at Arsenal, you think no matter how well you thought the team was, you always felt there was somebody there to take your place. And when you had a manager like George Graham or that, who didn't care who he played, if the fella went in for you and he did the business, he'd kind of stay in in general that way.

33:21So you're always on that edge.

33:23Paul Scholes: Did you like George? Did he have a warm trip? You know what you say was tough. He was tough. I remember going, I remember playing my 700 game and there was a person called George Armstrong who had been in the 600s. I think he was 6-2-1. It was a big thing. I went to 6-2-2 and it was a big thing on that day of presentation, beating it. And then it was a big thing then, your first player in history to go into the 700s. I remember George coming in afterwards, which meant well done. Nothing else, you know, that was...

33:54Ian Wright: It was like the hat trick I scored at Southampton. I thought that he was going to say something. I didn't even see him. And when I finished that, Gary said something about Sheffield Wednesday. After that cup finals, my last game was leaving. All George said to me was, we went back to Sopwell House and the cup was there. And everybody, George was leaving then. It was late, it was extra time and all that. George was leaving and said, you make sure, He used to put the onus on me a lot. You make sure everything's alright and keep an eye on Tony. You know, all this stuff. And he just said, see on your travels.

34:28And that was it. You know, that was... And you were gone? And he went, you know, he went. I remember that cup. At the end of the night, the FA Cup was in the room. You've gone to bed. The FA Cup was there. I was going home. Joy hadn't come to the match, so she'd come to Sopple House to pick me up. And got in the car and the cup was... I thought I better take it home. So I have to tell this fella if he watches the overlap that I get in the car I had been drinking and had a cup here. We go down the high street of St. Albans and we just come to these lights and there was a fella there red and he looked across and he sees me with this and as he's looking across the green lights go we go I'd have to tell that lad it was me with the FA Cup.

35:15I go home, I can't leave this FA Cup downstairs, just in case. I live in a place called Hadley Woods, you've been to that. It's hard if it gets nicked, O 'Leary loses the FA Cup. So, have it up on the side of the bed. The kids roll in the following morning, just to see how daddy was, the FA Cup was there. I bring it into the stadium, that fella called Ken Fryer, and Ken said to me, we were wondering where the Cup went. You can edit it out of the house, but that was the end of that one. I thought you were going to say, you threw up in the cops. I've got pictures, you know, Kira's out there with me and that and John.

35:52But I thought, I'll get the kids out in the garden with the pictures, you know, holding Evic up in the house, you know. So that was that. So that was my last game.

36:00Gary Neville: Yeah, do you see the similarities between what you faced back in the day? Because the song was boring, boring Arsenal, rightly or wrongly, and now this team are being accused of having a style issue. Do you think it's unfair? What do you think of this current team? They're effective. They're hard to be. Sometimes I wish, I think, I don't know, since they lost against Man City, whether City have gone ahead of them or whatever, the shackles have been taken off a little bit. I've seen a team get to the front at a certain time and nerves hit. I didn't think they'd bottled it up to then. I haven't think they've bottled it over the last few years.

36:41I think a great Man City side in general, Kevin De Bruyne and them, have come and beaten them. I was detecting after that Bournemouth game where, you know, it was early doors, the sideway pass and the centre-half back, going nowhere, back to the goalkeeper stuff. And there was a lot of stick afterwards. The crowd gave them stick for which it thought was unfairly because you're coming off the pitch still six points ahead in the league. But that is the Arsenal crowd a little bit demanding. and it's I wish sometimes they'd play with more freedom they'd seemed against Fulham they went out with a very positive way of we had a job to do instead of Saka going at people instead of we have this new way of the ball is centre back to centre back goes out to the right back down to the winger then it comes back and goes back around and goes the other way it was a more of a positive way when it went there that people took you know Full-backs were asked the question and that was very positive.

37:40And Arsenal got the job done in the first half on Saturday.

37:43Paul Scholes: Taking more risks. Yeah, and Gokares looked a more effective player. I'd seen him play for Coventry and I came away thinking, first of all, the lad is a trier, he'll work hard for you. Is he the most technical? No. But he has a way, an effective way. And the last few games they've played to that and he looks a lot better player for it.

38:04Gary Neville: And what about Mikel and the job that he's doing? Obviously this club have been very patient, he's been on a journey for five, six years. Gary, the myth of he was on an edge to go, I thought that was rubbish. He was never anywhere near. It was going to be this project of, I think he's ruthless, I think he came in, the club needed an absolute shock to the system. He was the right one for that. The only negative was that first job, he's never done anything on his assistant. I think he thought he was going to get it after Arsene. I think for one reason or the other he didn't and I think that did him a favour because Unai came in and then he came in on the back of that.

38:50I think that deep down did him a good favour and I think he sussed out what needed to be done and I think he was rootless enough to do that. I think he's a great coach. I think he has a job there now that Guardiola and him are the most run at football club, a whole football club. And I think he's got, from a chief executive, Richard Garlick behind him, a structure that is so important for a football club. Because if you have a bad structure off the pitch, I think he'll relate eventually onto the pitch. And Arsenal now have got a structure on and off the pitch. And in general, they've bought well in that way.

39:30And, you know, that's a big thing. And you're judged on the players in that way. And in general, the players that have come in for Arsenal have done well.

39:43Gary Neville: Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Your first big sort of foray into management, you were actually assistant to George Graham. Do you know what? And I'd probably say with Michael Carrick a little bit,

39:59George, very demanding he was. I learned so much from number two. He worked you really hard. I think I said the right one. I think I'm going to die right away. But I learned a lot. We're playing somebody on the Saturday. George coming off the train ground says, I want you to see me in my office. I thought, here we go. What's going on there? Go up to the office. George sits down and says, this is going to be our last game tomorrow. We're going to Tottenham. and I said, George, I can't go to Tottenham. I said, me house will be booked. Honestly, I just can't go. Could you believe George was going to go to Tottenham?

40:43Do you know what? I could see a little bit, I really like him and he's a great man. I think he went there to try, again, my own good feeling, and just get back at Arsenal for it.

40:54Ian Wright: Yeah, of everything. And it was the nearest way you could get back to Arsenal, was going down there. He came up to Leeds, he did a really good job, sorted Leeds out. But where I learned a lot, he'd go back on a Saturday and wouldn't come back up, say, on a Tuesday. So I was getting a little bit of responsibility, taking the training on the Monday. Now, I'd go into him, Gary, number two, he was the greatest training for me. I'd come into his office and give him these great ideas. Thank God he never took the Merlin. And that's where you learn so much, that training part of it. But he said to me, we'll talk after the match on Saturday.

41:30We won the match and I knew then he was going to speak to Peter Udge. I said, George, I can't go. And he said, you won't get the job here. I said, I know I won't get the job here. And then the explosion happened. Going to Tottenham, he left. And then we had Forrest coming up of a Saturday and there was a two-week gap. And I thought, I know what's going to happen. I'll take the Forest game. Then they've got the two weeks. I think the person we're going to get was Martin O 'Neill. And I took the Forest game and I just thought, kissed everybody's backside and just thought I'm not going to be here and let the players get on it.

42:15And it was a rank average game. and then we had this two-week gap. I was going in every day, taking the lad's train. When are you going to be told to go in that way? Two weeks arrive, next I'm taking the next game. What's up? Then we've got Roma away and then I hear that... Were you enjoying it? I was enjoying it. But I thought to myself, after that, I'm going to do my way now and pick the right players, what I think, what I've been telling to George and I'm going to pick it and do it my way. I'm not going to be here, but at least if I'm going to be here for two or three games, I am going to do it the way I want to do it.

42:54We went out to Rome, got the game and all the directors in that weren't really thinking, talking to me or anything else. But there was a thing on the following day after the result in Rome, Martin O 'Neill signs a new contract at Leicester in that way. And director said to me, get off the plane at Leeds, David, where are you going now? I said, I'm going home. He said, could we come and see you this evening? And came along and said, I'd like you to have the job. And I rang Michael Kennedy and Michael said, I'll come up tomorrow and discuss it with him. And I got the job, Gary. What stage of the season was that?

43:32Early in the season. Early in the season, yeah. Early in the season. Is that maybe the best way to get a job? Sorry to wander. No, but is that the best time to get a job? What I was kind of making a conclusion, on the Michael Carrick thing, one thing after that, taking the team when then they said this is your office and this is you're the manager of this football club it's a completely different one completely of it's down to you stuff and you know I never say on Michael I don't think they were ever going to you know give him the job because I think they had a he's going to come in and do the job for us and we're going to go over and get somebody but now that situation's changed big time but I'd say to Michael now that for all he thinks he's the manager of Man United but when you get it officially and when you get told that and then you've got to play midweek games and you've got to make all these other decisions it's a bigger thing and Man United they don't come much bigger than that.

44:31Gary Neville: But David you had a team and a half didn't you at Leeds? Gary, you know what, I'd been going to George about, I'd watched the reserves and there was a Jonathan Woodgate in there and there was a Harry Cuell in there and there was Alan Smith in there. I was saying to them, you've got to put these kids in George and George was more conservative, young youngsters, drop us in it more. and I thought then when I got the job that I've got to I'm going to do what you know George would be looking at me there thinking you were telling me all this you know do it back it up and they didn't let me down Gary because you know I got put in at 17 at the Arsenal and I seen other you know 18, 19 year olds who couldn't cope with that but I enjoyed it you know I got put in to start the season my birthday that season it was 42 games my birthday I was on the 2nd of May.

45:24Thanks for your card on Saturday as well. I appreciate it. And that's my birthday card. Thank you.

45:28Paul Scholes: You got the voucher, yeah. Yeah, I got the voucher. You got the voucher. And a few injuries and I played at Burnley and I think they'd better be me so I'd be staying there for a couple of games. And I played the first 40 games that way. At 17? At 17, yeah. 17. But I got a drum roll as well. It shows you how times have changed. I was on 100 quid a week at the time but it was like£250 appearance money at the time. And I was thinking, I was in the team, each game was playing. Bertie Meade said to me after the third game before, how are you feeling, you OK? Yeah, I feel OK. I feel all right. They became another game.

46:05Through all these games, I was thinking, you know, this old banger of an Escort 1600L, you know, with dodgy tyres. I think I could be getting a Capri now, the way this is going. And it was, you know, then I played the 40 games and the secretary called me in at the end of the season and there was Alan Ball, you know, all there. And they were saying, you get a good rise here, you know. So I go into, remember Ken Fryer? Yes, the great Ken. Ken was when I was the captain of the club. When the lads had moaned, right, he'd say, we need more tickets for a cup final, this, that, the other. Go up and see Ken.

46:37You knock on Ken's door. Mr Fryer, I'd like to come in and say, come in, David. And he'd start telling you jokes. Then he'd start telling you this. Then you forgot what you were going to do. And then when you'd come out, Ken had always said this thing, leave her with me. So I'd go with the lads. I'd go back to the lads and achieve nothing. I'd absolutely achieve nothing with them. So I went in, Gary, and Ken said, sit down, and he'd give me a drum roll of this and played 40 games, this, that, and the other. I'm on 100 quid a week and I'm thinking, I'm going big time. The lads had told me really go for it, you know, the whole lot.

47:10So after about 25 minutes, Kevin said, David, we're prepared to raise your salary from 100 pound to 110 pound. 10 quid. And then, I said, Mr. Bro, you know, my mum and dad are home in Ireland. Could you leave her with me or get back to you? So how time did it change?

47:27Paul Scholes: I was going to say, obviously, not a downplay how many games that you played. Why do you think you were an ever-present? Obviously, you speak about stretching in your room. Did you look after yourself?

47:39Gary Neville: Yeah, I did.

47:40Paul Scholes: But there is an element of luck in terms of injuries. But there must have been something, like when Gary says playing 600 games, There must be an element of looking after yourself, doing things right. Did you get many injuries, Dave? No, what finished me was snapping Achilles tendon in that way. All I got was a broken nose at the end or a cheekbone. Oh, Mickey Mouse said the half things, really. I think they said they averaged about 45, 50 games a season. I have to say, when I went out in that 722, I thought to myself, what the hell? how has a lad from Dublin come over? You know, I was 68 on Saturday and it was the 2nd of May and the club stitched me up on every way out, right on the side.

48:26But I came over 53 years ago on Saturday to sign my forms on the 2nd of May. Thinking, you know, your lad come over for a few weeks, you're still, you know, poncing around here, you know, scraping a living still around the place.

48:42Gary Neville: What would your best contract, We always do contracts on the areas, it's just over time. You know what, I don't want to bring Wrighty in in the nicest way, but I remember Arsene Wenger saying to me, when he came, Ian Wright was on the best contract at the club. Good on you. He still is here as well. I'll drop Wrighty in, I won't say you've got that. But now, it was a big contract, but now, players are getting paid that more a week at Arsenal. What would your best contract, David, have been at Arsenal? What would your best have been? The Arsenal, Gary, let me think of the best one finishing. Get the calculator.

49:23Maybe£150 ,000. A year? Yeah. With incentives of... I think we got paid about, when we won at Anfield, that was about£30 ,000 in that way. Winning the league? Yeah, winning the league. but you went through all that yourself didn't you? Yeah. Same times.

49:44Ken Fryer, we were coming out of Old Trafford a little while back and it was a bad performance and Ken was going on about some of the players and I said, Ken, you know of us coming into you now with Michael Kennedy, it's probably relevant to what you're saying. I said, how much do you think we'd be offering? We'd definitely offer your start as 250 a week, Dave, and definitely Michael could have squeezed me up to 300. So, on the conclusion of that is, I peaked about 20 years too early, Gary, in general.

50:15Gary Neville: Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Going back to that Leeds team, you had a hell of a team and you made a British transfer record fee signing Rio Ferdinand. Tell your story on that one. Tell your story on that. Can we edit that one out or not? Whatever you want, but I don't want to be boring you. You don't want me to think. This is a new story. We love stories. You can tell me to shut up on things. When I went to Villa, I had to go present things to Doug Ellis at board. At Leeds, I was like a coach. You look after the team, you did no board meetings, no administration. When I went to Villa, Doug Ellis said to me, we've got a board meeting in a month's time, I want you to do this.

51:00I was thinking, I've nearly four years at Leeds, manager, never been to a board, never present things and I was really what to do you know. Whereas, and on that, a fella called Lucas or Debbie, don't you remember? Yeah, yeah. Great lad, fighter, great captain, a lovely man off the pitch, humble. His knee was absolutely banjaxed and it was coming to a stage and Arsenal used to, our lead said to me David send the half we've got the Lucas thing we want three proposals off you we want the lower end the middle ground and who would be here if you were a big time hitter and I said Rio Ferdinand in my opinion said back to me I don't know where that's the lower one no we know where you're coming from this week sorry I've been down this road with you sorry no I knew where no I knew where he's coming like this so So I believed him, I thought he was a great sender.

51:57He came back to me a little bit and I thought, somebody said something, he takes a lot of chances. I said, well, he takes a lot of chances, he plays because he's so good on the ball and he plays as a spare one in the three, as kind of a sweeper in that way. But I think putting him in the back four, the size of him, the build, the quickness of him, the whole lot about him in that way. And how much did it cost? I said, I think it cost about 10 million. and I must give credit to Peter Ridgedale that developed the story and developed and I was at my dad was having a big operation in Dublin and my phone was off on the Friday and I picked told me I had to sit with my mum can't have your phone on got out Gary the hospital ring Peter Ridgedale straight away David we completed the for Rio Ferdinand I went brilliant how much 18 million if he did come back to me early that day and said david 18 million i wouldn't have done it wow and man united because i think at 18 million then it was a big fee and peter deserve it yeah i always thought at the end i always thought as we were going along on that that it was the agent was peenies a harvey fellow you mentioned it yeah i thought good friend of alex um and i thought we'll We'll be a stooge of get a price and they'll come in at the end of it.

53:18They didn't. Rio was a refreshing like to deal with. He wanted to learn football. He was a rogue as well. If something happened at the club, I knew he'd be involved around the line. But I liked him immensely. I thought, and he was a great player for me. And he loved football. He wanted to stay behind and talk about football and learn it. And the other thing which was refreshing, Gary, was that where now as Sven Eriksson said to me you've got to be you can't really dig players out these days because they take it personally you've got to be more of a diplomat you know you could give him a volley and he wouldn't take it on the chin now you know the player you might have different opinions but that's my

54:04Gary Neville: that's true and you sold him I mean Leeds sold him for 30 million so it ended up being a good buy in the end but a lot down to Peter Ridgdale as well because I think I'd have bottled it when they'd come back with 18 million in that way. And he talks about that period of his career, because obviously you're right, that reputation he had at West Ham, and then obviously they say that Leeds made him into a man, made him into a real defender. What part did you play in that? Do you know what, Gary, when I met him and sold the thing about a young team going places, I sold it and said, you're going to be a stepping stone to a real Madrid that I think I can turn you, in my opinion if you believe me I know the centre half game and what you can do and stepping out from the back with the ball and being comfortable on it plus being a defender which you're being bought for I thought we could put you in the shop window for in the nicest way of Man United to buy it for a lot of money and a real Madrid because I could see them playing on the continent and that's what I really liked about it Were you shocked around obviously then the financial problems came maybe a little bit later but the time that you were there The team was fantastic.

55:10Gary Neville: We had some, you know, Vaduka, Kewel, Rio, obviously, just a general, just a brilliant team. I'll tell you about, say, Vaduka, who was a great player for me. You've had Jimmy on the programme here. I see Jimmy gripes about me, you know, and the thing, great lad, great player, but I see him out and he's all nicey-nicey. And I'd wish he'd give me a blank, Jimmy, you know, and I'd rather have a nice person out. If he doesn't like you, instead of you reading about, he's griping you about this, they really sold him that way. But I mean, I remember when Rye came out to Dubai and probably the best parent training he was with my team out there.

55:48But Jimmy asked me, could he come training? He was doing his best. I said, of course you can. And we sell Jimmy. I remember going down, we played Chelsea for a Saturday, Gary. Flew down to Lisbon on a Sunday to watch Jimmy play in the Mickey Mouse game, middle of nowhere. I thought, he'll do in that 12 million. Jimmy came back from a World Cup and said I want to leave or he wanted more money.

56:14Gary Neville: Did Jimmy lie on this program David? Sorry? Did Jimmy lie on this program? I've seen bits of it. We'll get him on the HMRC thing right. I'll tell you a story and Jimmy can come back but when you have a top player you don't want to lose him because if you lose him puts you under pressure you've got to buy him and we He didn't sell Jimmy or I didn't get rid of Jimmy and he would become a bad player. He went on to Galetico Madrid and did what Jimmy was doing, scored goals and really top player. He went to Chelsea and was top player. So we didn't get rid of him. Jimmy came back and demanded, I can only believe Peter Ridgedale, who was a generous man and wanted to give players what do.

56:55Money that club couldn't afford. We didn't find a Galetico Madrid. His agent found him out of the blue and gave him the money. I think one thing we did benefit from, and I think Peter Ridgis did a great deal, I've been told, is because of Gletico's finances, they couldn't spread it over three years. We had to get all that money up front. We were able to buy a few players and spread the cost that way. We got Mark Faduka and I think Jimmy then, I think he was great. We played Chelsea and like any human nature, the players in the restroom, I didn't have to cheat him up, they went, we're not going to let Jimmy score today.

57:29You know, because of that human nature he played. And I think a little bit as well, we lost a really great player. We didn't go downhill after losing him that way. And I think Jimmy thought, come back with that reputation, you don't give me the money, I'm the top man.

57:47Paul Scholes: I think Jimmy said the money was after, I think he was saying that Leeds gave it to Viduka. Was that what he said? Yeah, I couldn't give you... Of course, no, I'm sure not. Yeah, that was his, yeah, that's great. But players after, for me wandering off there, after I'd left Bobby Robson, say, ring you up, like, Anton, what's the character of this player? What do you think? He rang me up about Jonathan Woodgate and I said, top player, the only negative were injuries. And when he gets an injury, it's not a slight injury, it's an injury that takes him out for months. but I said a very educated centre-half ball-playing centre-half the whole lot about him in that way and then they'd say to you do you know what he's on?

58:33I said I don't really know but it wasn't the guy Peter Ridgdale if I didn't if I'd have said to Peter Ridgdale what's he'd have never grown and Peter Ridgdale was good to work for in the way that he never he never tried to interfere with your team or picked a team in that way stuff so he was good that way so

58:51Gary Neville: How did it get so bad, David, at Leeds? Because you're third in the Premier League, you've got a brilliant young team, an incredible young team, and you're thinking you're going to go and all of a sudden it just falls off. Do you know what young players, and I've seen playing it yourself, we're the young team who burst on the scene and you reward players like that. But then you've got to watch with young players. Can they go to that next level? They look very impressive and they do well and they do well and then they find that level. I think a lot of those lads didn't kick on the way they should have kicked on.

59:31Gary Neville: Do you think Harry Kuhl falls into that category? Harry Kuhl has had a great career but I thought he was one of the most talented players I've ever played against. But did he quite get as...

59:40Paul Scholes: No, you always made wingers look better than Marti. Sorry, Davy, you didn't have this coming. He always gave you a tough time, didn't he?

59:46Gary Neville: He was actually the one. Do you know something? It sounds crazy. Not all wingers. I very rarely put myself in a position where someone could do me for pace because obviously I was smart in terms of dropping off. He did me for pace at Old Trafford. Oh, my God, he was absolutely... And again, I don't think... Ian Bart did you for pace. Ian Bart ran past you once, right? I think he didn't go on to what everybody thought he'd achieved. I think he got a lot of injuries as well, which didn't help him. And it was a lot like that. I mean, Alex rang me up about Alan Smith. I said to him about Alan Smith and Alex was thinking of, you have a big Champions League game midweek, want to rest somebody, Alan Smith would be a good fit playing that league game.

1:00:32Or Alan would be a good fit after that big Champions League game, particularly away from home and that way. I said, Alex, he's a great lad, I think he's a perfect fit to that way. but I remember Alex ringing me up that night he broke his leg it was a bad break in that way so a lot of those lads didn't kick on the way I thought Rio did, I always thought he was going to be on the Voduca one I went up to Celtic to watch him midweek games and I thought the way I want to play I'd like him and want him and we got him and Mark was a really top lad the bigger the game the better the game I always loved going to Old Trafford or in those Champions League nights going away places he'd get to a stadium he'd get turned on by I knew but then we'd come home and go to Southampton maybe and I was thinking it's going to be a nightmare because he'd be no interest in this Southampton game away

1:01:34Paul Scholes: I'll always give Leeds credit even when you were there Dave the different men Leeds always have a go at Man United don't they they never park the bus they must have had an ego thing going, we're as big as you in that sense. Do you know Alex Kane, I was George's assistant and Alex Kane, they were good friends as well when they beat each other but I remember I was coming into the dressing room or coming into George's office after the game and he went, bloody place drives me mad. I look at the pictures when it comes up, Leeds, you're always going to get this rivalry there. I mean I went to the… But even at Old Trafford, not just at Leeds where it could obviously be tough.

1:02:08Paul Scholes: Oh, and the supporters are unbelievable. I mean, I got some grief off them. I went to the Champions League final in Barcelona and, you know, I was cheering Man United on instead of Bayern Munich. But the grief I got for that, and, you know, that's the passion of that. But, look, you've all been there. It's a ground that needs renovating and that, but it's a great old-style, passionate ground with an atmosphere in it. It was a passionate place. I don't like noise. I remember with that great young team, it was a passionate team, they got to the ball. They had quality as well. I think we were struggling, I don't know if you remember Gary, we were struggling a little bit in the Champions League for a couple of years.

1:02:46But the manager said to us, watch Leeds tonight, watch the passion of that team. And I had that. I'm pretty sure it might have been Valencia. Valencia. We played, I was thinking that night, I think in the semi-final last night, that first leg, Valencia, there was a game before that, deeper Tivo like Carugher. They were decent, weren't they? Yeah, I remember that. Absolutely blew them away. It might have been that game. There was a game where you blew a team away. Blew a team away. And it just, you know, we went along. That Champions League, we started off qualifying in the summer of August time.

1:03:24Thinking, why get through this? We kept going on and on. And we kept going to places and beating teams. But the lads, there's a group of young lads, That group came through, like yourselves at United. Apart from...

1:03:36Paul Scholes: Is that the innocence of a young team? Yeah, but the innocence of players that I could relate to myself. I enjoy getting into the team at 17. There are others that need a bit more time. But it's like those United lads Alex introduced, they relished it. The occasion wasn't too big for them. We brought it up in the culture of the club. The bigger the better, we wanted to show everybody. So that was that group. I mean, I was coming off in Milan and Maldini coming off, it was known over the time, he went, David, all these are nutcases. You know, he was kind of saying, he said, they closed me down and balls thrown out of me.

1:04:14I said, when you see the second half, I'll find out my stuff.

1:04:19Gary Neville: Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. David, in 2001, Sir Alex Ferguson announced his retirement from United. He was going to leave, if you remember. just after, and you were obviously at Leeds at that time and you were doing incredibly well. Did they ever approach you formally at that time? Did you ever have conversations with the club around actually taking over from Sir Alex? Michael Kennedy did, yeah, about it. Alex had recommended three people or something like that. So, yeah, never went any further than that, but yeah. You one of those people?

1:04:52Ian Wright: One of the chosen ones. You're one of the chosen ones, yeah. Was kiddo with you? Brian came, the club felt that you were doing everything because there was no data. You know, managers now, they don't go out and watch games up and down the motorway. You kind of, everything is there in front of you. So, you know, for those periods, I'd be going away. We were playing the Champions League of Wednesday. I remember going to Holland to watch PSV against somebody on the Tuesday, back into Leeds late Tuesday night. Remember Van Bommel? Yeah, yeah. Good midfield player. He was interested because he was young, he had seen a young, vibrant team.

1:05:40Tried to get Frank Lampard, met Frank, but just a top guy, top fella, chose well, he went to Chelsea instead. Rio was a great influence caressing that along as well and they were the things. Gary asked about the financial side of things, no I was totally shocked Gary. I was totally shocked.

1:06:02Paul Scholes: Would they be encouraged to bring Kidd or something? Oh and the Kidd thing, I was then kind of being encouraged by them saying Brian Kidd, there's a group here, he's developed this kind of same scenario at Man United and and we feel that you're doing too much that way. So that's what happened.

1:06:23Gary Neville: Did you love the management? Yeah, you know what? George Graham said to me, you should stay in this game. And I thought, what's he going on about? You know, you should stay in it. You're a good judge of a player and this, that and the other. And then I left the club, Gary, and if you want me to again, you can cut it out. We can have a laugh here. I've got Ciara over here. Do you want to become our editor? No, I don't want to be wandering on with these things and driving me mad. Kira's over here, my daughter. I'm living in Hadley Woods there and Kira's a home and I said, Kira, I'm going up for a shower now.

1:07:08You play secretary. Anybody rings. Harold Wilkins has got the sack on the weekend, previous weekend. you play secretary anybody rings write things down so I went up for the shower and everything else come down and Ciara went daddy George Graham rang I said what you say said I told him you're not here and he said he'll ring back at six o 'clock so I said what does George want me all the time for and I'm thinking at the time as well of Stuart Houston you know George rang at six o 'clock and said David, George here. George, I hadn't spoken for youngs. He said, I've got the Leeds job. I'm good, you know, good.

1:07:49I'd like you to come as my number two. I'm shocked. I said, well, George said, moving up to Leeds. I said, I married a girl from London. You know, family and that. And I'll give you, I'll ring you in the morning. I'd love you to come along. I'll ring you in the morning, have a think about it. Said to my wife, been lucky to play for Arsenal all my life. she'd never been north of Watford in her life, you know, having it around and she said yeah, let's go up. And you know what, apart from Leeds, who I love the club, Arsenal will always be the club one, the family became better people. We came to the north of England, they've seen a different way of life and it was brilliant for the family of that way.

1:08:32Paul Scholes: People are friendly up north. and we went and that's how it started but Gary he was a hard time I remember I'd come off training I remember he sent me up to Pert in Scotland of a Tuesday watched this game got back about two in the morning I thought he'd be nice and easy the following day he said I want you to go to Arsenal tonight that's the way he was testing you all the time but it was a great learning experience and I said to you at the very top if he'd had taken the suggestions and done the things in that way. Oh, God. Because a number two can be... He can come up with great... You weren't the player coach, were you?

1:09:12Paul Scholes: No, no. A number two can have these great ideas, but as I say, you know, but to say that, you know, going forward, it's not just about managers, it's about having a good team around them.

1:09:23Gary Neville: Yeah. And at Leeds, I had good people around them. It was a small team. I had a Roy Aiken, Eddie Gray, who would die for Leeds United. I had good people around them.

1:09:33Paul Scholes: Yeah. Do you think now there's sometimes too many people? I think we spoke about it like 30-odd members of staff. It tells you that when you pull in on the ground now. Two large coaches, you know, can pull in. You know, when we'd go away, there was about 20 rooms check-in. There was about 60 rooms when you check-in anywhere, you know? That's how big... Look at the team photos now. The team is small. Look at the ancillary. I mean, you know, the video fella has an assistant and the assistant has an assistant. And there's so much. It's unbelievable.

1:10:09Gary Neville: Do you like the modern game? The modern game, I love... You know who I really like, the way, the game? I like Erola Barmit, the way he plays. He's a bit more direct. I'm not into lumping. I'd love to be in this generation, as you say, playing football. I think there's too much of a going nowhere football. I think the ball should be passed, not for the sake of it, but for a purpose. That purpose is to get it forward to create a chance to score a goal. But I think there's too much. And I think Arsenal fall into that way where you play too much. And in the end, I think the stadium dies a death. There's no atmosphere for getting it lulled into a goal of nowhere.

1:10:50I mean, you watch the, say, the Man City-Everton game. Man City were more exciting when they went 3-1 down. That ball for Haaland for his goal, would he have really got that he loves? Would another pass gone sideways since giving him that way? So, the modern game, I love Gary that the centre-half can kick the number nine up in the air and nothing's done about it. That doesn't happen anymore? No, and I think it shouldn't in that way. I think the centre-half now has to either step out, read it or make sure the fella doesn't turn in front and back. You know, that's the thing that drives me mad about the Mottlingay is the way the players roll around.

1:11:34It's just unbelievable. I mean, I've seen you a year back. I think you were walking away. Leeds United away to COVID. It was Leeds Arsenal where we'd look around. There was about 10 people each in the stadium. And the thing that shocked me in that time was the way the players were rolling around, squealing. Squealing. Squealing. You know, it's just a nod. You don't get that in the women's game. I remember that night passing you by and you were coming one way to do it. And, you know, it was a strange time, you know, of thinking, did you think we'd ever see days like that? You know, I remember going to the Cup Final Chelsea that time and there was ten of the Arsenal people, ten of the Chelsea.

1:12:12You're looking outside and this is the FA Cup. I was going, it was a strange time. The game has become better. The players who could play are allowed play. and I think, you know, the days of you were a good defender because you kicked the fella up in the air, that wasn't good defending in any way. And I think, as I say, that's changed and that's changed for the good of the game. But I think what drives me mad in the game is the way players are all around now.

1:12:39Paul Scholes: Well, do you not feel embarrassed screaming on the floor in front of your teammates? That's good.

1:12:44Ian Wright: I never screamed around. I wasn't afraid of, no, I wasn't screaming. You couldn't let people know that you were... No, you can't. No way. I used to love when you got kicked right there, right? It'd make you angry. You know what it was? I remember there was... I remember Lacazette was at our place, didn't it? I've seen him recently. Yeah, honestly, he was... and he screamed. You can hear it. I remember I kind of made a joke about it. He sent me a message in my DMs about taking the mickey out of him screaming. I tried to be nice in that, but then it just got worse and worse. So we just left it like that.

1:13:18Ian Wright: But the screaming was something that I found funny. I find it quite funny when they were screaming. Do you think you could play now, Gary?

1:13:26Gary Neville: Would you like to be playing in this era? I sometimes question it because I think that I look at the tactics that maybe I use at times to stop wingers and I think the speed of everything. If I look at Doku and play it and I think, how would I play against him? How would I play against Doku? You'd like to think maybe I would have adapted with obviously the times and things like that and the fitness side, but you just look at Doku and you think...

1:13:48Paul Scholes: Yeah, Doku is something else. Just leave that game. You'll have seen or heard that. What about that cup final at Leeds-Chelsea one of years back? Oh yeah, the kicking. They're kicking. They said 12 cent off or something and they re-refereed it. Easy. Easy 12 cent. They re-refereed it, didn't they? What was the score?

1:14:09Ian Wright: I think it was 1-0 Webb. Was that the game they had to replay at Man United? Yeah. I can't believe it. Eddie Gray, you know, he'd tell great stories about Leeds and Don Revy and all that. But he said, you know, he said, Ron Harris went over the top on him about 12 times. Took him out from knee high above 12 times. The referee, I think, in the 90 minute or 89 minute gave him a warning. Fell off.

1:14:37Gary Neville: First one. Well, let's finish with you and Ian, because this next few weeks is one of the most defining few weeks in Arsenal's history. not won a league title for 22 years. 22 years. What did you say? Never won a Champions League. Arsenal Football Club, one of the greatest football clubs in our country. Never won the Champions League. I mean, how big a period is this for the club and will they do it? I was asked months ago of which one could they, if they have to choose one when it was all. and you said something there of, you know, I'd love them because the great Man United, the Chelsea, all these teams and Arsenal are a Champions League winner.

1:15:24You think to yourself, would you rather them win the Champions League than just to tick that box of a great club like that? I think they've a great chance of winning that because the final's over 90 minutes. I think the draws all the way through have been kind. and Agletico Madrid they weren't Agletico Madrid of old in any way I think the other side has been stacked up a lot the league they'll never have a better chance and I'm not trying to be anyway daft or trying to be clever and could turn out I thought around Christmas time we'd win the league by about six points I think we've messed up I think fear got into us I think when there was times that Man City had gone on Saturday we had a game on the Sunday and that where you had the chance to go nine points ahead you thought well a draw we'll get drawn at seven points ahead and that fear crept into it right from the start in that way I think through us and we brought Man City back in it I don't think they can believe they're back in it because of I think they thought no this is gone but they've already had a smell after the Man City game it was kind of talking to them afterwards and when we were coming back looking at it.

1:16:36I felt, and I felt what they felt was that they had to win all their games now, that they looked at their fixtures and we were going to win all the games. We couldn't, no disrespect to the teams we had to come up but we should beat those teams. And looking at it, we were looking at it thinking everything is a sticky game. I think the one to me was going to be even more stickier was the Bournemouth game away. Particularly I think it's the lads' last game there. I mean, the whole lot about it. After the Cup Final and that, I thought that was going to be a sticky one. I thought it was going to be a hard ask for them.

1:17:08And if they did win all the games, fair play to them.

1:17:10Gary Neville: So Champions League or Premier League, if you could pick one? Yeah, I'm hoping you wouldn't say that. I was trying to divert you off at the start. But I knew the great Gary had come back with me on that one. Do you know, I'd have to go because of the way it would look. I would say the league because I think people would accuse us of bottoming it and I think Gary that if we don't win it this year we'll never have a better chance of winning it than we ever win it I agree with that as well there was a big purpose in the summer of what do you want put this squad together it's probably and it's the best squad really balance wise and if you're not going to do it with that squad with the position you're in now I fear when you'll ever do it

1:17:54Ian Wright: I think as well Roy, remember what you were saying about you can build up to that I'd rather win the league and then the team, what he's trying to build. Keep them together. Keep them together and you go and try and do it.

1:18:03Gary Neville: I'd to it even. But for Mikel and the players, if they win the Champions League, they'll get a great amount of glory and it'll be an incredible achievement. But if they win the league, they'll be revered as people who could stand the test over a period of time and the endurance of winning the league. And I think Mikel's career will completely go like that by winning the league. There are managers who've won the Champions League who I think aren't thought as highly if they won leagues in their own countries and you know you've won them we've all won them the best team always wins the league you know I've won many cups but have we been the best team in many ways the draw has helped us through winning a lot of days but the best team is that and that group you've been with over 38 or 42 games or 40 and you've gone through little dips through the season and whatever and you come through at that end and it's a great feeling together, without a doubt.

1:18:57Gary Neville: David, thank you very much for coming on Sticked Football. Thank you. Love you, David.

1:19:04Paul Scholes: Thanks. Pleasure. Thank you. Thanks, David. Thanks so much. Thanks for listening.

1:19:24Thank you.

1:19:54Thank you.

1:20:24Thank you.

1:21:00Gary Neville: Thanks for listening and thanks to our partners Arn Clothing. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and you won't miss an episode.