Des Walker: Playing Under Clough, Italia 90 and Nights out with Roy | Stick to Football EP 94

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2:15Jump in. Remember that song? Remember when you were leaving Forrest? Remember myself singing that song? Remember Please Don't Go? Everyone used to sing that. Do you remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah. DWS. Yeah, but you left. Yeah. Yeah. Didn't work, did it? The law of the labour, eh? Sam Dorian. Yeah, yeah. I was thinking of your cars, Des, as well, when I was at Forrest. You were the best cars ever. Did you have good cars? Because I love cars. Oh, this was in, like, back in the day. What was it? He had a Porsche, he had a Nacelle, he had a Cosworth, he had a Range Rover, he had big Jags. Are you a fan of Cosworth?

2:49You'll never be, there's Wilbur. He's supposed to sound as a good play.

2:55Ian Wright: Well, you can play a little bit. He's about me going out. No, no. What would I do? You still smell amazing. He does, I've seen that. The two things you've said is about him going out in his cars. There you go. I'm supposed to be a good play. If you want half an hour, just say to Dave's Cors. We got to nice cascades because you could play. Yeah, that's true. Yes, bro. Des, remember that time when I came to Forest. You've never dug and barked yourself. He could play, so I'll let him do that. Des, remember when I first went to Forest and I was there for that loan and we was driving around? What was that car?

3:20Ian Wright: Is that a suit? No. Mitsubishi Evo. We were zooming around. We were zooming around. We had a little race. Were you two friends? Yeah, man. I loved theirs, bro. I think you didn't like people when you played. No, no, but like... What were you playing against each other? You know what was... Did he have a score against you, Des? Oh, yeah. No, but the thing is, he hardly got a touch, though. All I went for is he didn't play well. Yes. He nicked a goal in the last minute of about three different games. And he was the worst player in the park.

3:59No, I'm not joking.

4:02Ian Wright: Most managers would have took him off by then. You know, the thing is, that's what's good about those managers. They keep you on because they know that you're capable of doing that. But the thing is, I can't even argue with Dez in this situation because I played in, I can't remember how many games we played Dez and I can't remember having more than three touches unchallenged properly. You know what I mean? He's all over me all the time. You know, even when I was trying to, even when I'd make a move, Dez, you'd say, well, I know you're not, what are you making that move for? What are you making that move for?

4:31Ian Wright: He hasn't even got enough time on the ball. Can you remember Lee at right back? Yes, Dicko, yeah. and he's gone and he's spun but Lee's put his head down and Lee's played it straight to my feet and he started having to go Lee, you play against him and give me and I said you've got to know your players once Lee puts his head down that's finished that Krochescu you know what I mean he's clever with a ball you've got to know your players but that's what Des would say it always it always talked to me in a way where and it always smelled amazing that's what I'm saying it's aftershave you do smell good and like it always tell me why they didn't pass that to you and I'll tell you why that kind of vibe Did you talk to him in the game?

5:09Yeah, he hated it as well.

5:10Ian Wright: He always did talking. Did anyone ever speak? Craig Bellamy was the only player who spoke to me on the pitch against me. I didn't like, it was just like, it felt weird. Was it? Was he always, Des, were you always speaking to? I'm talking about players speaking to you from the opposition on the pitch. Craig Bellamy used to do it. Did he? But no one else did. Did you speak to strikers you were up against? Not all of them, no. No, but obviously, righty, his character, it lends to you. Do you know what I mean? Because he comes at you. Give him a little bit back. And I'm not going to be intimidated by no one.

5:40So it probably starts a little bit from then. Because he's doing it a jokey way, but really and truly, he wants to score four against you. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, he wants to take the piss out of you. So you kind of know that in your mind. So I won't back down no matter what.

5:55Ian Wright: So I'd give it him just as well. I remember the biggest mistake I made was when I first met Des and I told him, I'm going to cause you a problem today because if I can do it against Des Walker, I'd get myself in and around England. I don't think I touched the ball once. I was watching videos of you, and there's not many times where forwards ahead and a centre-off gets back, and you were, like, so quick. Or was it more your anticipation? I do, because probably me and Roy had raced many a times and there was nothing between us, was there, really? It was class, yeah. Yeah, he was quick, and people don't get that.

6:30He was really quick, and he could probably do it time and time and time and time again more than I could. So I was quick, but I do think I'm 5 '11", and 11 stone 10. So most centre forwards, a lot of centre forwards, a lot stronger than me. So once you're a quarter of a yard in front, the arm comes out in you. So it's got nothing to do with speed. It is how quickly you make that first movement.

6:52Ian Wright: Right. I've watched people like Teddy Sheridan. Teddy was the slightest person I ever played, and Nigel Clough I ever played with, really. But they played for a long time, and because of the speed of thought and their first yard, not rather than your recovery. How many times do you get to recover? As soon as the full was in front of you, your line's gone. That's it. You're right. I thought he was reading the game was my biggest strength.

7:19Gary Neville: I've watched you play 100 times, but it's the first time I've ever met you today. I thought, one, you were bigger. I always knew you were an unbelievable one-on-one defender. Were you the first of a kind in England in terms of a defender that would defend one-on-one? I always think of centre-halves back in the day. Six foot two, had to be good in the air, had to be really strong. And even your weight that you said then, 11 stone, that is sly. Were you that weight when you were playing? Oh, yeah, exactly the same weight as I am now, 11.10. Wow. 74 kilos, 75 kilos. That's incredible. But, yeah, I think I broke the mould, really.

7:51You know, you probably maybe look at maybe Colin Todd, but Colin Todd was a lot stronger. But he wasn't big, but he read it really well. But he read it more than he was quick. So I think I can always remember England playing and a few people was touting my name, so we probably need someone who's quick because obviously at international level, not so much league level, at international level, the game was quicker and the forwards were smaller and that was just a time when Lineker and Beardsley were up there, which is not big. We've always had a big Bob Latchford or a big player. So that football started to change and I was probably one of the first of the mould where probably I took Tony Adams' place, really.

8:32So Tony got into the England team, I took his place because they thought we were wanting someone who was mobile and quick. But, you know, it's like you're gaining one thing, you're losing the other. You're playing against someone who's 6 '6", and it's a problem.

8:42Ian Wright: It's like Beresi, look. Beresi, look, how small? Yeah, yeah. So when you play international football, you have no problem being 5 '11", even 5 '8", as a centre-half. English football, you still, if you look at it now, you don't know how many goals are scored from corners straight away. Yeah. Would that play on you? I mean, I was a centre-back and I was small as a centre-back, just under six foot. And you're talking about probably in your day and age, it was probably more of a direct game, wasn't it? Everyone played two up front. Everyone had a big centre-forward. I'm thinking of sort of Graham Sharp in the 80s, you know, the games, Everton Forest.

9:16Even though you'd say your pace at any level is a great asset, but was your actual size sometimes, did you go into games thinking, oh God, these have got two big centre-forwards? How did you manage that and navigate that? You had to find a way. I think you've got to head the ball. You know, you play for Brian Clough, you had to head the ball. You had to. He respected people who had the ball. And if you're a centre-half who didn't head the ball, then you've got no business. I can remember playing against Quinney for the very first time. It was Quinney's debut, I think it was. Noel Quinn, yeah. Noel Quinn.

9:42Quinney's what, 6 '4", 6 '5"? And he says to me, and John Metcord was at the back of me, and John Metcord was 6 '4", 6 '5". But he's a midfield player, really a ball player. He wasn't physical. And he says, son, I want you to... They've got a player who's six foot odd, six foot four, six foot five. And I want you to take him because John Metcgott thinks he's the only person in the world who's six foot five. And when he sees him, he'll shit himself. So I wonder how they're talking about. You battle away, don't you? And you get away with a little bit more when someone's big because you can jump on his back.

10:16I'd head him in the back of the head, see if he's brave. And all the little things you try. A minute before half time, ball goes over the head. He flicks it on. John Metcgott's sleeping. Bang, we're one nil down against Arsenal. So I come in at half time and he says to me, son, what position do you play? And he had this way of being really simple. I said centre half. He said, what's your job? And I said, edit, tackle. He said, yes, son. He said, how tall are you? I said, 5 foot 11. He said, yeah. Yeah, how tall is the guy you play against? And I says, I don't know, 6 '3". He said, 6 '5", son. He said, but it's not my fault that you're 5 foot 11.

10:52find a way to edit or find yourself another job

11:00Ian Wright: so I spent the next 20 years finding a way to edit but you were good at winning headers because I was surprised did they not put you up for corners I read somewhere that you never got put up for corners but why if you could head once Graham Taylor and it wasn't I could edit I could edit because I had a good spring. If you're a sprinter, generally you've got a good spring. You know, and so, but each time, well, I just, was a foul save for Forrest. In the end, Graham Taylor said, he's good in here for sticking me up. Playing Israel. I think he was playing Israel. Yeah, I think he was. And obviously, they're not fancied.

11:41And ball's coming. Corner near post and he wanted me to attack it. So, ball's coming, but he's coming about one foot off the ground. They've kicked it down the bottom of the pitch, gone down, past Mike and Keone, brought him down, penalty. So, Pearcey coming at half time, he says, that's why Dez doesn't go up the corner. It's not because he can't edit, it's because he buys everyone time when the ball gets breakaway. So, that's how I just end up staying at the back. People say, well, he don't score goals. I think, it's all right to score a goal from 55 yards, 60 yards, is it?

12:18Gary Neville: Just before we get started, a quick thanks to our partners and clothing we hope you enjoy the show Des take us back to your childhood so we were defenders and the usual story when we meet defenders on this show is that they usually started up front scoring goals then they end up back at midfield and then they end up basically when they're not good enough in midfield going back to centre back what was your journey in football? Very similar

12:46How many goals did you score when you were younger? Started off as a centre forward. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Quick and, you know, how you like. And then you end up easing you out in a right wing kind of thing. And I played right wing. I remember we used to play against Teddy every week and Jimmy Carter. They played for the local club. And Martin A's, they were all the same football club. Beaumont, they were C and Perry Suckling. You think they had four players that made it top level. Do you know what I mean? From a Sunday team. So I used to play right wing all the time, really, after a while. and you know it's like you get into a festival club and I was at Tottenham and they're not they kind of think well I don't think you've got enough ability to be a right winger so you're easier back than a right back look I'm shuffling in my chair easier back than a right back so I'm a right back and I came Tottenham released me as a right back really and I went to Forrest as a right back how did that happen?

13:44yeah how did Forrest get there?

13:45Gary Neville: how did you get to Tottenham and how did you end up at Forrest? long story there's a guy called Robbie Stepney who was a reserve team manager and Peter Shreves was the youth team manager and Bill Nick was what you'd probably call the academy director now but he was just there in time. And they didn't fancy me so Peter Shreves and Billy Nick wanted to get rid of me. Really. And Robbie Stepney was a reserve team manager but he didn't really have anything to do with me but he thought I could play. So he came to me and he says don't point weight to your apprenticeship because you're not going to get one.

14:20Do you know what I mean? Yeah, this is back in November. And he says, I think you've got a chance, son. So I'll say, and he set me up the trial at Manchester United, Birmingham and Villa. So I went up north.

14:37Gary Neville: What year is that? 1981. And I went up north and I played Man United on trial against Forest. at right back huh? right back right back and then I played for Villa against Birmingham no Birmingham Birmingham asked me to come down and then when I was at Birmingham I played against Forest again on a trial game at right back so I was going to sign I was literally going to sign for Birmingham right and on the way back on the train a phone rang Forest asked me I'd come down so I thought I might as well come down you're a big champions as well I thought I'll come down and see how it goes there, and I end up signing up for a forest.

15:19Gary Neville: And who was the sort of person behind that that saw you at home? Well, there's a guy called... There was Liam O 'Kane, Ron Fenton. They were, like, obviously, Cluffy and that. He was a 15-, 16-year-old. I was 15-, 16. So they didn't have nothing to do with it at the time. There was Liam, which he obviously... And there was a guy called John Sheridan, which you won't know before your time. And Liam and Ron Fenton didn't fancy him. John Sheridan stuck his neck out, but he was the most junior one. So I kind of... And he got Peter Taylor to come down and have a look because he was the junior one, and Peter said, yeah, sign him.

15:54So Peter had the ultimate decision, and our sign started in 1982. So that was a good thing. But I come as a right back. Who put you to centre-back? Half myself and half... See, the thing is, I don't even remember, we used to play on park pitches as a youth team, So it was only really a park pitch down by the river there by Suck Baines's. So when you're a right back and you've got Brian Clough stood there, so you're on the line. And I couldn't take throw-ins. I'm shit at throw-ins. I'd take a throw-in and I'd edit back straight over my head. I'd turn my own team back and he'd say, Son, we're playing him red!

16:39So, you know what I mean? You're 16, you've got him in your ear roll right next to you. You know what I mean? It's a daunting prospect. So we got to the Youth Cup. I got in the reserves quite early, like a month in. So I'm probably one of the most experienced players. And the Youth Cup, as you all know, was one of the most important things in any calendar as a youth team. So we're playing Villa. And he was in the first team. What's his name now? Damn it. No, he went to Rangers. Mark Waters Wally Wally was in the first team but he was old enough for the youth team so they stuck him in the youth team so Lafay said I was the most experienced one and he says son can you play centre half and I says I'll just get it going he says I want you to mark Wally do you know what I mean yeah so because he thought centre half would get so he wasn't on the wing he was centre forward yeah yeah centre forward then he started centre forward yeah Mark Waters And so I'm Martin Wally and we had a right old battle.

17:42He got a trick.

17:47Wow. He got a trick. So I come in, right? We got battered. You know what I mean? I come in and we went round and he honestly, he released three or four players just on the strength of that. Wow. Because that's how it was. He was honestly. And he stopped and he said, son, well played. If you had any help today, we would have won. That is a top-class player. Well done, son. Right, so next day I'll play him right back. So he come in half-time and he said, put him centre-half. He's a centre-half. And I've played centre-half ever since. Wow. You know what you just say? That's funny when you talk about the Youth Cup.

18:24I think probably it's still the same now. It was so important. That's how I ended up centre-back. I probably told the story on here, but getting move position in the Youth Cup was how I ended up getting to centre-back. The Youth Cup is always bigger, take Chelsea v Man City finals a few times. It's huge as a youngster, isn't it? It's the first time you're really put under real pressure to perform and the big players must be a big player. You can elevate yourself from there straight into the first team squaddish, just on the back of that performance. You don't realise it at the time. When you look back on it, you look back at all the other youth teams.

19:01The thing is, all the first team players go and watch.

19:03Gary Neville: Yeah, yeah. So you're also, you're getting a judgment. And I come in the next day and people say, well done, Sal, and Chris Fairclough, oh, we were brilliant. And I'm thinking, he scored an air-trick. And he did. We had a good battle, but we scored three in between the battle.

19:17Ian Wright: You two formed a real formidable partnership, you and Chris. I think Chris is underrated as a football player. I think he was a fantastic football player. I think he won the league at Leeds for a reason. You know what I mean? and it was funny really because... Was it you and him right from the start once you got in? No, Chris is older than me. So Chris was in the team and I used to watch Chris as a 16-year-old and I thought he was the best centre-half in the league. So you know when you're at a point, you watch people come in to your ground all the time. Chris was unbelievable. And he got injured.

19:50So me and Chris played in Australia on tour. I was just starting then, getting the first team. And we played in... We played Man United, I think we played. Man United, Juventus, he's in Australia. at the United event and Australia's national team twice. And when we come back, I think that was kind of in this for Des and Chris should play together. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Chris got injured. No, sorry. I got injured. I come back with this groin strain. I end up snapping a nerve in my groin that I didn't realise. And so I was out six months. When I come back, it's because Chris got suspended.

20:20So I played the last three games of the season and we didn't play. So next season, it was like, oh, them two can play together. Them two can play. Chris got injured. Oh, no. For the whole year.

20:29Gary Neville: Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think you're not Chris's confidence because in that year, I established myself so well with the crowd and with everything, you know, that when Chris came back, I think he thought his slot had gone. Do you know what I mean? And you know what the managers like today, especially Cluffy. He offered you a load of shit. Do you know what I mean? He expected you to sign, no matter who you were. You know what I mean? It was like, yeah. So Chris thought, well, they don't even want me. They want this. Do you know what I mean? And I don't think that was necessarily true.

20:59I think that's just Cluffy's way. And Cluffy, I think, loved Chris. Probably more than me. Do you know what I mean? Because he didn't like Londoners, Cluffy. I've got to be sure. He hated Londoners. Do you know what I mean? This is from your neck of the woods. He hated Londoners. He just think they're cocky and they're full of themselves. So, I think by the time Keeney left, he didn't like Irish.

21:24Gary Neville: I agree with that. Who was your inspiration when you were younger, when you first think of football? Who was the person that you look up to? As a youngster? Yeah, like when you were a kid. Professionally. Yeah, when you were a kid. Who's looking after you? Who was your team you supported? I was at Tottenham. I didn't really support a team, you know. I was at Tottenham. So I'd say Tottenham, but Glen Odell was one of my favourite players, but so was Liam Brady. So you can't be at Tottenham, supporting Tottenham, but one of your favourite players, an Arsenal player. So I look back on it, I've always, especially now, I just pick out players.

21:57And I like watching good players and I like watching good teams. Do you know what I mean? And I'll be fair, you know what I mean? Some of the best two teams, the best two teams I've seen, which was obviously Liverpool in the 80s and your team in the 90s. Do you know what I mean? So I'd watch, you know what I mean? So I wasn't a May 19th supporter by a long way. And I wasn't a Liverpool supporter. But I admire teams with a lot of ability to play at pace. Do you know what I mean? And that's what you did. You played at pace. You played not to just retain the ball, to go and score a goal. Do you know what I mean?

22:34And to go and score another one and go and score another one. You love watching the game, though. You still have a passion for watching games, yeah? For watching good players. For watching good players.

22:42Gary Neville: Do you know what I mean? Who's the player you watch now that you think he's a good player like in the last couple of years? I used to love watching De Bruyne. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? because I think he wants to influence a game of football every time he goes on a park. We don't always do it, you know what I mean? But he wants to influence a game. You know, I get fed up with people. The thing about football to a degree for me is when a goalkeeper has more touches of the ball than a centre midfield player. Yeah. So I find that a crime, really. Do you know what I mean? Yeah? And you build, you build, you build, it comes back.

23:10It's modern day football. Do you know what I mean? But you need a hell of a good player to do it. And some teams ain't got good players.

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23:45We are in the Arne shop in Liverpool 1 with me being the honorary scouser of the Overlap and the podcast. I've got the great job, I should say, of coming down and having a look at the gear making sure it's all right for us to wear on the podcast and hopefully we're in other venues as well. I've come with an Arne top on as well. Smart one fits really well, so we're going to have a look at this stall and see if we get a few feedbies. The most important thing with clothes is fit, like, just fits well. And that's what this stuff does. Like that. Or certainly this top does anyway. Having that you want, certainly for young lads in Liverpool, definitely.

24:20Do you think Wrighty, Roy, Jill, Gary are going to come down to Liverpool into the shop? Oh, yeah, look, here's James. Nice, isn't it? Do you have it? I've got every colour in it. Oh, have you? You know, cos you're from Wigan and that. Any discount? Not trainers, trainees. I thought I'd wear in training. Make sure you come down to the iron shop in Liverpool 1 like I have done today. It's absolutely fantastic. Shop is kitted out fantastically well. The trainers, hoodies, coach, tracksuits, everything you would expect is in. It's superb.

24:54Hi, I'm Jack Cravici, Kramer, host of The Best One Yet. At T-Boy, we're always talking about small decisions that can have an outsized impact. One of the simplest is staying hydrated. Whether I'm traveling, getting a workout in, or heading into a busy day, I keep Liquid IV on hand. It's clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone and contains three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight vitamins and nutrients. It's an easy addition to your daily routine and helps support hydration when you need it most. Shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you.

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26:08You know, when you come into the team, Des, I'm thinking of when you come in, it was probably sort of the early 80s to mid-80s. And Liverpool and Forrest have probably had that big rivalry, haven't we, before that? Was that rivalry still there when you were playing? Yeah, it was massive. You coming to the team? Yeah, it was massive. Obviously, the Hillsborough disaster as well. Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, it was huge. It was huge. I think Liverpool probably always felt they got a divine right to be the best. And we had some objections to that, obviously. But good teams. I think Man Utd are the same thing.

26:41Do you know what I mean? They went about the business like they should be the best. You know what I mean? You've got to go out and prove it. Which they did. And which Liverpool did. And I think you need the arrogance in sport. But when you're up against it, sometimes you don't like it. When you're the underdog, you feel, do you know what I mean? You want to topple him off the perch. Do you see what I mean? And obviously when Liverpool got beat in the first round of the European Cup when they were champions, when they were champions, the rivalry really comes from there because they expected to beat Forrest and Forrest beat and went on and win it twice.

27:12So that stuck in Liverpool's front. So the rivalry had always been there since then. And then you had the Steve McMahons and people like that, which is not the nicest person in the world. Do you know what I mean? Especially you play against, but full stop. Do you know what I mean? Sorry, Maka. So he knows it because you had that rivalry week in, week out, didn't you? There's no point in me pretending that. We best of mates. Do you know what I mean? he's tried to break Webb in two you know what I mean which is a great player by the way I remember one of the ex-Liverpool players telling me a story there was that rivalry obviously the hills were stuffed there was a replay around that time I think John Aldridge did something he rubbed someone's head Brian Laws John Aldridge obviously regrets that but I think it might have been John Aldridge who told me the story.

28:07I think a few months later you're playing at Anfield and maybe Brian Laws is trying to leave one on John Aldridge and Stuart Pearce has come running across from left back, grabbed Brian Laws and went, don't worry about Aldridge, just get McMahon.

28:20This is one of the worst tackles I've ever seen. Almost Steve McMahon. Yeah. And it was too high. It skinned off the top of his head. No way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a kung fu kick of Stingy off the top of his head. and he'd run from left back into midfield to do it. It's strange because Stuart Pearce wasn't nasty.

28:39Ian Wright: People called him psycho. He weren't nasty because David Rokas always spoke about how he loved playing against him because he was hard and fair. He never kicked no one deliberately. No, he didn't kick anyone. Fair laws, he left his stunts on a lot of people. You know what I mean? But Pearce, he generally got hurt going into the tackle because he's gone hard and fair and people are a bit scared thinking he's going to kick him and they go slightly over the top. But he would just ride it because he didn't want to show weakness. You know what I mean? but generally, it wasn't. Percy, he didn't kick no one.

29:07You know what I mean? You know what he's like to do? Pinch you. Yes. And intimidate you. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And pull you out. You know what I mean? In all fairness, you couldn't be a right winger with a ponytail. Do you remember Roy? Do you remember Roy? That was a player, wasn't he, Percy? Percy was fantastic. Do you know from me, people ask me about good players and this, and he wasn't a conventional fullback anymore. He scored 90 going goals, right? Who scores 90 going fullbacks? Yes. He made a difference to a football match. As much as any player, Brian Robson made a difference to a football match.

29:38That was England. Do you know what I mean? And Pearcey, with it, Forrest, he made a difference to a football match. If you needed a goal, if you needed... It's just unbelievable. He made a difference. He didn't make it because he was the most talented left back. He didn't make it because he was quick. He made it because you needed a goal, you're nil-nil or you're one-nil down. He either scored it or he drove the team to get it. And I think that is what... When it comes down to it, Tony Larrigo probably had a better full-back than Pearce he was. But he certainly didn't make a difference like Pearce he did.

30:07So who's the better player? Pearce by a long way. I remember, Roy, we were talking about, I don't know if it was on this show, but we were talking about maybe the best England left-back, or we were picking an England team, or maybe an all-time Premier League XI, and everyone was seeing Ashley Cole. And I think you said, but he doesn't score a goal. And you mentioned Stuart Pearce. And it's interesting that you think of that influence. It's not just about being a left-back. He could take three kicks, couldn't he? He'd dominate that whole flank. It just made a difference to a football game. Yeah.

30:34And that's what... At the end of the day, that's what it's about. Whoever makes a difference is the best player. Regardless of how you go around it. You know what I mean? He pops up at centre-forward. You need a goal.

30:43Ian Wright: It's a good time. You know what I mean? It starts from left-back. It starts from left-back into that mid-field game. He'll go all the way. Right, yeah. A lot of left-back. A lot of full-backs. Sometimes I have this with my two sons and they'll say, Daddy's good. And I'll say, what's he good at? And I'll say, well, you know what I mean? I said, how many crosses does he create for a striker? How many crosses does he stop? I said, well, he's sometimes in the middle of the field just passing the ball. I said, that's not a good thought. You're not making no difference. Yeah, yeah. You've got to make a difference.

31:11You know, if he's going past and overlapping, he's bringing the centre half out on the other side, you're hurting the opposition. But when they're just sometimes just playing in there, I think that's a midfield player gone wrong. Yeah, Dennis Irwin would join in, though, wouldn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He gets down the wing. and you've got to make a difference. And it isn't every cross, but the overlap, the go inside, whatever it is, you make a difference. People like Bremer, when you watch Bremer and that, he'd end up anywhere. Carlos, Roberto Carlos. They're great players because they make a difference.

31:41They affect the game, don't they? Exactly. They pop up and you think, what was he doing down there? Yes. Well, Piers, I've got to be truthful. As I say, he didn't play left-back. His goal's dried up when I left. Because I played left-back. Once I left, he had to go back and go left-back. Did you always play with full backs or did you ever play as a three at the back? I played with three in the World Cup. And were you the central? No, I was a marker. Was it right side? No, no, I just picked the best, the quickest or the best. Was Paul Parker in that team? Yeah, Paul Parker was it. And he's the other best man marker I've ever seen.

32:17Yes. Unbelievable. You know what I mean? Listen, you don't want him behind you for 90 minutes neither, do you? You know what I mean? He's very good.

32:24Gary Neville: Just something, Des, if he hadn't got injured, I wouldn't have played full-back for United. If he'd have kept his fitness for another two or three years, I'd have been... He got injured just at the point where I got moved. That's why I got moved from centre-back to right-back. He was a good player. So he played on the right, and he didn't go forward so much. And I played Terry Butcher, another unbelievable centre-half. Best centre-half I've played with, Terry Butcher. He played in three World Cups for a reason. Do you know what I mean? and people underestimate three World Cups. You know what I mean?

32:57And he had such courage and ability and read the game. So we kind of shoved him in midfield nearly because he can't stay back. And Mark Wright stayed there. And I just picked up, because even back then, like, say, like Van Basten, it'd be him up front on his own. Yes. And most teams, foreign teams, only play one up front, really. So I was just mad Mark Van Basten. And then Mark Wright just, he liked sweeping, so he just stayed at the back. And whoever it was, you know, so like Klinsman in the semi-final, I just picked him up and just... Because I quite liked man-marking, do you know what I mean?

33:34As much as league football, league football especially, I would never man-mark really. I would just stay the spare one, if anything, because you get people running through all day long, do you know what I mean? All day long, do you know what I mean? He was a master at it. He was one of the best I've seen at it. when you were at Forest. He was at Forest. He was at Forest. That was my strength, definitely. Because he's so quick and can keep going, and how we played, we'd play it up to Nige, play it up to centre-forward, and the midfield player gone. Before him, it was Ozzie. Yeah, but he was brilliant at it.

34:09Do you know what I mean? He was brilliant at it. He scored 12 goals a season, 12, 13 goals a season.

34:12Gary Neville: What was your first experience of Des when you got to Forest, Roy? You're smirking, though, wasn't you? No, obviously, Des watched another television. Lifted the car, probably. No, I just had it in my head. Obviously, it all happened very fast for me to get involved in the first team. And I would obviously see them playing for England and thought, yeah, I just couldn't believe my luck, really, when I was joining the dressing room. And the lads didn't know me until I'd really played in the first team. Because I've said this story before. I was obviously training with the underage teams. Yeah, do you know what?

34:40It's great talking about the old days and the players you're mentioning there. But obviously, then I was young, 19, then I started going out a little bit, Des, and I'd see Des out and about. Would you go out, Des?

34:53No comment. I love going out, if I'm truthful. It was that break from football. So I'd go out and have a drink, have a party, ready for Saturday. So when I used to... When was that? 1990, 91. Yeah, when I... He was thinking more Friday.

35:07Gary Neville: I'm thinking Wednesday or Thursday, not the year.

35:11Ian Wright: Sorry. Oh, dear. Let me finish his story, then I'll jump in. No, after you do the midweek game, you might go during the week. Sometimes it's a lot on a Saturday night. But this is, obviously, as a young player, when you get to the first team, you're looking at Percy, and now Des is a little bit younger. So I'd start going out and about, and I'd see Des out, and obviously I'd be drawn towards what a footballer was, and Des would be out. So part of me, I love what Percy stood for. I'm going to blame you. No, no. Don't get it late there. When Des was out partying and enjoying some, I was like, well, this is...

35:41That's what it is. I want some of that as well. This is the life. Yeah, this is the life. I couldn't believe my luck. Des then had the cars, you know, all the toys. And I was like, oh, yeah, I like what Percy had. I was like, I wanted a bit of Des and a bit of Percy. Right. What they stood for. And obviously training and playing with them. The best. Yeah. Yeah. The best days. But I was only young and quiet, so I wouldn't, not that I was going up meeting Des and socialising with him. I just might see him and go, do you want a drink? But not, I wouldn't be in his company. How was that, Des?

36:12No, it was because there was a young. There was a young, wasn't there? There was Woney. Of course, yeah. There was a young. So we bumped into each other. To be... Out of my stories, I never used to drink that much as a youngster, very rarely. And then I went to Australia and we went on three weeks. Can you imagine a modern-day play-out at the end of the season with three weeks? I sort of played Man United, Juventus, Australia twice and went to Australia three weeks. By the time I come back from there, I'd learn to drink. Blim in Australia. No, no, no. The first team, the first team. Who was you drinking with?

36:45Who was drinking? What happened was they'd give me the kitty to buy the drinks. So I was a Joey kind of thing because I was the youngest player on the tour. And then like Gary Burt, have a drink, have a drink, have a drink. So you get steaming. You know what I mean? So in between buying, you just buy it because I'm not paying for it. I'm just paying out of their money. And I came back and obviously I didn't really drink that much, but I went to John Robertson and Martin O 'Neill. Was that the non-league club down south? What was it there? Croydon. What was that? What club did they start at? You started at Wickham.

37:15No, the Wickham. Oh, yeah, but there were some of them before Wickham. And they asked me if I'd go down and open the lights. This was a Thursday, so I went out and opened the lights. Put, turn the lights on. And you know, it's like you stood there, it's in the afternoon, I've had a few drinks, and this, and this. I came back, and one of the boys come back was Keith out of Jellens, the guy who used to own Jellens in town. So I come back, he said, I'll come in here for a couple of drinks. And, you know, I went in there, and I came back. I ended up leaving there about half past four in the morning, steaming.

37:41And we played Tottenham on a Saturday. I remember Tottenham released me as a kid, so we went to Tottenham, so we'd gone down to Tottenham. And Keith asked me some tickets, so he got on to the finish, I'd get some tickets. And we played Tottenham, we beat them 2-0, and come back and he said to me, you should go out every Thursday if you can play that well. I'm telling you, if you can play that well, you can go out every single Thursday, you go to Satan and the other. And do you know what? On my troop, I owed him to that. Did you do it every Thursday? Every Thursday until I was 35. Wow, Dez. You went out to the park?

38:13Yeah, every Thursday. You're playing against us by then. I'm playing against everybody. I'll be playing long before that, every Thursday. So did you get in? If I played on a Sunday, I went out on a Friday. So it was two days before. If I played on a Monday, I went out on a Saturday. How hard would you go, though?

38:30Ian Wright: Would you get a steam in like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when you were going out on a Thursday, you were getting in Friday morning, really, weren't you? Yeah, Friday morning, yeah. And then playing Saturday.

38:38Gary Neville: It's only warm up five a side, though, isn't it? Yes. It's only warm up five a side, doesn't it? Would Brian Clough know that you were doing that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And said anything to you? No, it didn't matter what you did. He only mattered what you did on a Saturday afternoon. He gave me the impression that he wanted a player to have advice. Listen, you could drink on a Friday. Webby had a bottle of wine on a Friday. Two bottles of wine on a Friday. He'd say, Webby, don't keep going to the bar. Get a bottle and put it down the side of you. Wow. Yeah, because people would talk, wouldn't they?

39:08So, listen, he didn't care what you did. He cared what you did on a Saturday afternoon. and make no mistake about it, there was no excuses. But did you feel hungover on a Friday? No, no, no, on a Friday?

39:18Gary Neville: Yeah. Yeah. You try to drink, yeah. But it didn't matter on a Friday. But on a Saturday you were okay? Saturday I was brilliant. I felt better. A few times, no, no, no, a few times I didn't. A few times I didn't, right? And I didn't feel good. Now you might say that's psychological, but whichever way, I didn't want to play well. Wow. That's it, that's it. There is no, it was my way. I just, that was what I felt comfortable doing. And I would sleep, I wouldn't sleep, obviously I hadn't slept a year, so Friday night, I would never, you couldn't get me to touch a drop of drink on a Friday. I'd have a big, big Jamaican meal.

39:53What a pro. Big Jamaican meal.

39:55Ian Wright: I was just thinking. On a Saturday morning, I'd have a nourishment. Yes, a nourishment. That's it, it's a protein drink. And that's it and go and play Saturday and I felt unbelievable. Ready to go. That's like your heel. I always think you're the professional so what it is you've got to go and deliver on a Saturday afternoon so you have to put yourself in whatever position you can now I'm not saying that is the only way I felt great doing it I got to 35 and I thought you know what Des don't keep kidding yourself and done it because you've always done it so stop give it 6 months not 2 weeks because you're going to think mentally, that's what I've always done.

40:39And I've got to be truthful, I didn't feel no better in any form or shape, but I didn't ever drink again on a Thursday.

40:44Gary Neville: This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing.

40:50Ian Wright: What about Italy? What was it like when you went to Italy? Because they're very much... I couldn't do that in Italy. Maybe I didn't perform well. I don't know. In Italy, it's funny because I always wanted to go to Italy. and ideally I wanted to go to Juventus in 1990 and the club stopped me really in terms of they turned down an offer that really in any other stage of life you could never turn down they turned down 6.5 million when they owed 1 million for stadium for 10 years just paid the interest so it was ridiculous really who would have turned that down it would have been the board because the board didn't own the club it was on behalf of and they was getting a bit of stick from the fans because they'd said he ain't going nowhere.

41:36You know, it's like when you lie to fans and they catch you out a little bit, they come at you, you know what I mean? And they went out the wrong way. And, you know, they turned down. They said, if I stayed two more years by the clause in my contract, I could leave for 1.5 million and went to St Doria. Did you all have those clauses at Forest? What happens is just before the World Cup, they wanted me to sign a new contract because, good case, what happens? They'd turned down 4 million from Roma, didn't they? Do you know what I mean? So in the World Cup, we think, well, if he goes in the World Cup, then we can cash in.

42:08And that was their time to cash in, and they didn't. Do you know what I mean? So I just, after that, they said, well, you can go next year. I went, no, I'll wait two years and go for 1.5 minutes. So I ended up going to Sampdoria. And Ericsson's thing, Ericsson's not a year. And enough said there.

42:26Gary Neville: Talk to me about that. Talk to me about that. How did you find him? Because we worked with him for three, four years with England. Well, in all honesty, Roberto Mancini managed the football club. While he was, yeah. While Stam was manager. So the decisions were Roberto Mancini's. There was never Sven's. And to be fair, I think I came there because I played against Robbie a few times. You know what I mean? So I don't think Sven was anything to do with most of it. He just went along with it, really. And so I didn't like that idea because I was used to Brian Clough. I think he ran enough from top to bottom.

43:01And I always think when a player has too much say, that's dangerous. Because you're splitting the team in half. Because you've got two or three of the real powerful players. Real powerful players. And then when things are not going right, it's the ones just below that's going to take all the criticism. Do you see what I mean? So I tend to think, well, if you're a manager, then manage. Do you know what I mean? You make the decisions, not the player. So, in that respect, we had an aging team and I ended up playing left-back. So, for me, it was a disaster. I've got to be truthful, I'm not a left-back.

43:38As much as I can get by, I'm not a full-back. Was they playing a back-four then? Because Femme was always famous for bringing a back-four into a three-start match. I think they wanted a back-four. That's where they brought me. So, who was the centre-halves then at the time? Viejo. Now, Viejo was a really good player. A really good player. So, there's no argument. He was a really good player. and Marco Lanna was left-footed. He was a left-back. He was a left-back. But after three games, he started crying and breaking down because he was a sweeper the year before. Right. So nice little cushy position.

44:09All of a sudden, someone's ripped him straight on the right wing. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so, obviously, Sven and this, that, and the other, because he's, you know what I mean, I think, was weak. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So he swapped you. Did you play centre-back? He put me left-back. And I said, well, I'm not a left-back. I said, Stuart, that's a good left-back. You want one? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I said to him, I said, I'm not a left back. And he says, yeah, but you'll do better than him. They said, yeah. So, I mean, it's in me. You put me on a field, I'm going to do the best I can.

44:35Yeah. So defensively, I was all right. Do you know what I mean? But you know, it's like in Italy. I'll go running up down there. And I did it all right, but six out of 10 ain't no good to no one. Were you left footed or right footed? I'm right footed, but I played on the left side all the time. So my left foot was good in you. Yeah. But six out of 10 is no good to me. Were you enjoying the lifestyle over there? Was it nice? If your football's not going well... I'll be truthful, Roy. Life is football. As much as I say going out in cars, that enabled me to be a good footballer. Do you know what I mean?

45:05Or was it taking me away so I could be a good footballer? As soon as football wasn't going right there, I'm not interested. I'll be truthful. I lived in Genoa, on the sea, Portofino, looking out, absolutely fantastic. It means nothing. I'll be truthful. It's just about football. So, for me, I want to come back then. Well, if I wanted to let you stay, but they're not going to let you stay, because in case you embarrass them, do you know what I mean? So, they wouldn't let me stay. They don't want to Spain. They wouldn't let me go to Spain. So, Trevor obviously played for Sampdoria, didn't he? So, Mantovani, the chairman, and Trevor got together.

45:39Be truthful. That was my only way out was there. Did you miss Brian Clough, though? Or you had enough of Brian Clough as well? He had gone then, by then. He wasn't at his best. Right. Right, but I was a product of Brian Clough, so I was my own Brian Clough, if you know what I mean. I think starting off with Brian Clough is the best thing any player can have, but it can also be the worst because the rest of the managers are never going to get close. So the problem is, he had two good managers probably, do you know what I mean? I had one. I had one good manager and the rest were... But you know, Des, when we talk about Brian Clough, the lads here, Evelyn and Jill, You find it amazing, the stories, isn't it?

46:21They can't get their heads around the way he treated players, his messages to players, the simplicity. You find it hard to believe, isn't it? But he was... No, it was unreal. Because, first of all, you knew your job. You knew what your job entailed. Yeah. And I think when I came as a 16-year-old, he didn't teach me... He did teach me football to a degree, but the main thing he taught me to be a man, was to stand up and take responsibility to respect other people, other teammates, to help your mate, do you know what I mean, yeah? And to take criticism, to be fair. People don't take criticism well.

46:59And I think if you're in the modern, people don't take criticism well. But he sometimes, he could murder you. I can remember at 16 being in the reserves. I'm sat in there and I'm playing against Notts County and Stuart Bevan, I think his name was, he always gave me a problem. You know what I mean? no, I was right back, you give me a problem. And I came in and he looked at me and he said, son, how do you think you played? The impression's brilliant. And I says, sorry, can we go well? You know your fingers are obviously not going well with this. And I said, shit gaffer. Who's playing?

47:42Son, I didn't think you played that well. LAUGHTER Or 16, do you remember?

47:51Ian Wright: Was it tough love with him all the time or was there any time where he gave you some love? No, no, there's times he gave you a pat on the back and you felt a million dollars. I've got to be truthful, you walk tall because it comforts me. And I think the cocky you were and I was a Londoner and the more confident you were, the less he's going to give you. Right. But he still had to give you every now and again. And he said this thing and I never really understood what he meant. I didn't understand. I had no clue at first, and he'd work it out. And we're coming at halftime.

48:20And he would walk up to me, and I'd be sat on a chair like that, and he'd start getting deep, Pete, and start rubbing it in my legs. Whoa. And he's kneeling on the floor, and I'm thinking to myself, this guy's a lunatic. You know how you think to yourself? In that case. And he says, get Desmond a coffee. Because I always had a coffee at halftime. He called you Desmond? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's patronising, so it's always Desmond. Yeah, yeah, Desmond. And you know what I mean? It's never, it's never, as long as he's your dad, isn't he? And he's rubbing my legs, he's rubbing my legs, he's like, I didn't eat meat.

48:48Do you want a whiskey, son? I said, no, thanks, Gabba. Get him another coffee. Honestly, for five minutes, he's rubbing my legs. No team talk. And then he get up, he get up, the ball's in the middle of the floor on the towel, and he's saying, that's what you play with. You've got to get it first before you can play it. Get the ball.

49:12And we'll go out. And I think to myself, what's he rubbing my legs for? You're not going to go. I know what you're saying. We 1-0 up. We need you second half. I'll do anything. We need you to stand up and perform. If you don't stand up and perform, we lose this game. Yeah. That's why he's rubbing your legs. That's why he's rubbing your legs. What's everyone else doing whilst he's rubbing your legs? Wondering why he's rubbing my legs.

49:40And that was his way. It's complimenting. And he come back in, and I'll come back in at second half. And I'll get out of the show, and he'll say, Desmond, well played. Oh, that's the fun. You carried us today. Well played. That's it. And honestly, you walk down, and you walk out of your car, and you think, I'm going out to have a drink tonight. Des, who was the best player you played against? Against? centre-forward or player? Straight-back, up against, yeah. Marco van Basten. Van Basten. Marco van Basten and Diego Maradona, a player in Barcelona. Best footballer I've ever seen on a football field.

50:23But he didn't play centre-forward, he played anyway. Best footballer I've ever seen. But Marco van Basten is a centre-forward. I played against him three times at Milan a couple of times and he probably made me internationally known because he brought the best out of me. But make no mistake about it, Disky's out. He was good at everything. All round, he was a really good player. But he was a pain in the ass, to be fair. Marco, I'm... So there's a lot of good players. Rushy, there's a lot of good players out there. You know what I mean? And I think... What about Lineker? Good finisher. Good finisher.

50:57And a lot of... Bottle. You know, I think when it comes down to... Putting the ball in the back of the net is probably the hardest thing you can do in football. and at times you're under so much pressure I think he didn't seem to feel pressure do you know what I mean yeah when others do you know what I mean he didn't seem to feel Kane to a degree is similar do you know what I mean don't seem to feel that pressure he'll stick it in the back of the neck no matter what he'll miss one guy again he'll miss the penalty guy again do you know what I mean yeah Lineker was that's his biggest strength to me was that he was fearless in terms of making a mistake do you know what I mean yeah so yeah it was a good good player rushy phenomenal movement phenomenal sharpness but in our day it was I've always thought myself I don't really pick and choose because if I pick and choose then there's maybe the effort level changes you see what I mean yeah you know what I mean you only get three points for Wimbledon then you get three points for Tottenham or Everton or you know so Wimbledon you know it's a battle Do you know what I mean?

52:07But it's the same three points.

52:09Gary Neville: This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing.

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53:28Gary Neville: but you have Bobby Robson with England. Yeah, fair. And England. Bobby Robson, good manager. Lovely bloke. Loyal. He picked his best 22 players and he stayed loyal to them. Do you know what I mean? And he was very... He left the... England's slightly different because sometimes you've got... I was quite lucky. So you've got... Butcher, Pearce, Robson, Barnes, Lineker, Beardsley. Waddle. That's that 90 squad. Yeah, Gazza. Gazza. Talk to us about 90. These players, these players know their trade. They don't need managing. I'll be truthful. They don't need managing. They're all experienced players, been in World Cups.

54:13They don't need managing. So, as much as Bob Robson, he just was a good enough manager to just let them go. That's good management, doesn't it? Of course it is. Of course it is. It isn't, we play this shape, this shape, that. Waddle don't play to a shape. Barnsley don't play to a shape. Robson don't play to a shape. Do you know what I mean? Piercy, as I said to you, they've never been a conventional left-back. There's no point saying, well, you've got to stay in this little position here. Because you're losing three quarters of them.

54:41Gary Neville: But you changed systems during that World Cup. Did you change systems during that World Cup? Is that the players' point? Yeah, Chris Waddle. Chris Waddle would agree. Waddle, Chris. Because Waddle and Barnsley always felt that they'd get isolated as wingers. So you're easy to mark. They wanted to go anywhere. Right, so you've got Gazza, Waddle, Barnsley. Platty came in after, didn't he? Yeah, so Platty. And Beardsley, I think, was a real... He was a perfect player to add, because wherever Barnsley come in or Waddle had come in, Peter Beardsley went into space. So it still gave this team shape.

55:18But with three at the back, you can use that. You can move around. With 4-4-2, it's a bit more rigid. So that's why they wanted it.

55:26Gary Neville: But how did the players change that during the tournament in 90? Chris Waddle went to see the manager. Did he? Yeah. But he wasn't the captain, Chris Waddle, at the time. They're all captains, aren't they? Yeah. But would he have spoken to the other players, Chris Waddle, and said, look, we've had a chat, we want to change? Yeah, but I think we spoke to everybody. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he asked me, is he comfortable playing through at the back? And I said, don't mind everyone. I mean, he's defended, he's defended. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and I think with Butch, I said Butch is the one because Bush is going to get dragged around a little bit more in channels.

55:58And the good thing was, because they play one up front, sometimes when you play two up front against three, then the striker... The only reason in English football I didn't like playing three at the back is because a striker could choose who wants to play against two out of three. So sometimes I'll be sitting there doing nothing because they'd rather go over there than go over here. Do you see what I mean? And so if I stayed in the middle sometimes, do you know what I mean? You still get out wide all the time.

56:24Gary Neville: So were you the left of the three? Were you the left of the back three in that? I was just saying, we didn't really have a left centre. You just followed whatever. It was kind of a hybrid system, basically. You see, I'm man-marked. I'm man-marked Van Basten. And who were the wing-backs? I'm van-marked every centre forward. Paul Parker was one of them, wasn't he? No, Paul Parker. Paul Parker played a full-back, really. He didn't really play. He took Gary Stevens' place. Yeah, he took Gary Stevens' place. So Paul Parker played really a wing-back. Yeah, to be fair. Who was the left wing-back? Piercy.

56:54Piercy was left for him, right? And then you've got Butch and you've got Mark Wright. Because there was one up front. I pushed Butch in front of me. Right.

57:02Ian Wright: Oh, OK. So he's playing up playing midfield. You see, Butch, as much as he's six foot four, 14 stone, juggernaut. Isn't he six foot four? Yeah, juggernaut. He's got such moral courage. He'll go in there and he'll go and bully the guy in there and do what he can do. You know, when you say you didn't play with much structure, So when you got the ball, what was the information? Oh, yeah, well, obviously, you just split. Yeah. You see, football was different. It wasn't different. But players were different. They didn't have to get told so much. Nowadays, there's a structure. On a Thursday, you do there, you do there.

57:40I know, and every player knows, the only way you're going to get balls is in space. So if it goes back to Peter Shilton and no one's out there, and Pearce is up there, they're not going to run out there. Do you know what I mean? You don't need to go through it. If you want the ball, you'll go in space. Do you know what I mean? You've been playing football since you're four or five. So it isn't really, you know what I mean? And the thing about it, it didn't have structure. Because when I got the ball, the great thing about that team was I don't have the ball anyway. I'm outtight. You know why? Because I had Robson, Barnes, Waddle, Beardsley all wanting the ball.

58:17So these are options. And this is what they wanted it. You know, like a foreign team, there's more than one option. You know, at times England was a little bit channelled. Do you know what I mean? So there's one option. They wanted so there's more options. So whenever I got the ball, you had a choice where you want to put it. Put it anywhere. So it was only a 15-yard simple ball. You ain't got to be a ball player. So you'd have it all day long. And Gazza, and Gazza's going to come short and have it. And Gazza, you know, Gazza, he had it with nine round him. Yeah.

58:45Gary Neville: You fell short in the end. and England have always fallen short since. Why do you think you didn't get over the line? Do you think about it still? Yeah, I personally, this is my personal opinion, if Brian Robson were the stage fit, we would have won the World Cup. That's my personal opinion. You made that much difference to a team and we was only a fraction short. Do you know what I mean? You know, like Piers, I say to you, well, Brian Robson was the one where you needed it, he did it. But Piersley weren't as much as hit for England as he was at Forest. But Brian Robson was at the time. Even when Gazza came in and made that difference?

59:24Gazza made a difference, but Gazza and Brian Robson. And Robbo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Robbo, he drove a game unbelievable. You know what I mean? And he needed a goal. He found you a goal as well. Yeah, he did. And that's the hardest thing in football. You know what I mean? Sometimes you're nearly not playing well. You need somebody. We were playing well, but you need somebody to just get you a goal.

59:48Gary Neville: What was Gazza like then at that time? As a footballer? Best player in the world. I played with him, obviously, in 96, and he was absolutely incredible and he was amazing to play with, but a great person as well. 90. Yeah, this is 90. He was brilliant. For four years, three, four years, I thought he was the best player in the world. And people would say, but, and I said, well, there ain't no but. How many people are the best player in the world for more than four years? Very, very few. So there is no but, really. You know what I mean? He was a genius for four years. And I can remember, me and Gazza come up from 18s, 21s together, and he's always been a bit of a rival, because I think I'll not let him take the piss out of me.

1:00:28Never, never. Because he will when he'll laugh. You know what he's like? He's a nasty little laugh. So I'll not let Megs me or take the piss out of me. And we played a training game. And I think he scored the best goal I've ever had someone score against me in this training. And I know people say it's a training game, but I wouldn't let him take the piss out of me. So it was for real in my... And Peter Schilt... No, not Peter Schilt. Chris Woods kicked a... I would say it's like a half volley, big drop kick. And it's going over the top and Gaz has run past me but I've caught him. And I'm laughing to myself a little bit because Gaz is not quicker than me so I know I've got it.

1:01:04But as it bounced, before, if he bounces up, it's mine. But as it goes to bounce, he flicks it back off a half volley. And in the same time, the ball's about here, and I've turned then sharp, and I thought, I'll kick this away. And just as I'm going to kick it, he couldn't wait for it to go down. He looked up, and he kneed it with his knee, 45 yards over Shilton's head.

1:01:29Ian Wright: He's laughing, yeah. He's laughing his head off. And Shilton's going back like this. I've never seen nothing like it. He kneed it with this part, 45 yards, yeah, over his head. And he started laughing. The minute he left his knee, he's laughing. I just thought I'd never seen it all like that you know it was just to be fair I don't like getting beat but it was a pleasure to watch you yeah

1:01:52Gary Neville: did you never do an interview with England or never do an interview whilst you were a football player did I hear that or is that no you never did one interview because I remember at the time when I was like coming through someone said you know Des Walken never does interviews no no the press obviously Fleet Street was dying to get rid of me out of the England team and I think what was that was that just the press back then how they were. It wasn't so much that, right? It started with, I got in the team when I was young, Forest Team. And probably Roy, I don't know, but Cluffy says to me, son, you keep your mouth shut.

1:02:25You know what I mean? Because you're a little wonder kid that's sort of, you're doing well at something. Keep your mouth shut, let your football do the talking. And I've, two years I kind of just kept that, just kept my head down. And I was flying. I was flying. Do you know what I mean? Yeah? And I've always thought, it ain't broken, don't fix it. What are you going to shout your mouth off now for? So I just kept to myself because I just think to myself, I wanted to be a journalist, I wanted to be a journalist, I wanted to be a footballer. Do you do your talking with your feet? So I was quite happy.

1:02:58I got in the England team and, you know, it's like this press everywhere. You know, it's like... Yeah, yeah. And because I said no, they didn't like it. I've got to be truthful. I said, no, I'd rather not. No, I'd rather not. They hated me. So they wanted me out as quick as they possibly could. So I knew I was on borrowed time. So it's just about playing well. I kept myself in there for seven, eight years just playing well. Because I knew I was going the minute, the minute. Because the big boys didn't want me.

1:03:21Ian Wright: It came against Poland. When Poland, we won one with Poland, I think that was after that one. And then we lost to Norway, I think. That was the one where they really came for you. Yeah, yeah. It is what it is. You know, the worst thing for me is that you have no excuses if you don't play well. Do you know what I mean? and I was lucky because when I started football I didn't think I'd get one cap and I played 59 caps on the bounce 58 of them on the bounce and then Graham Taylor brought back his very last one I think he went to play the team but 58 on the bounce and then never got in another squad but I was 27 so there's a disappointment that at 27 years of age I've gone 59 on the bounce and I weren't good enough to get in and they must have tried about 15 centre-halves Yeah.

1:04:09Gary Neville: And you think a big part of that was because you didn't beat the press and you think that was a big thing? I think Terry Venables was in with the press in Fleet Street and I think that influences some of his decisions. Right. Did you not get many injuries throughout your career? Touchwood, no. That's amazing. Touchwood, no. I think one time I did four and a half years about missing a game or something like that. Wow. So I was quite lucky. Is that first in the night? Lubrication, isn't it? It's the first in the night. And you're playing for your country as well when you're playing 60, 70 games a year.

1:04:43I didn't like training. I don't know if Kukoroi remembers, but we had a warm up fire beside, so I was used to not really training, but I didn't really like training because it wasn't for real. I just like that when it's for real, you turn up. And a couple of times, one time, Cloughy wanted to beat Liverpool. So he said, son, do you want to play in reserves on Wednesday? I said, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you played on Anfield, You played, Liverpool played two first teams, didn't they? You listened to me for him back in a day. So you're playing against good players this Saturday, and we beat them this Saturday.

1:05:15So after that, he said, I asked him, he said, Gaffer, can I play on Wednesday? And he said, son, of course you can play. If you shit, I'll leave you out on a Saturday.

1:05:27So I'd play on a Wednesday. But he'd say to me after the game, he'd say, just come in for the game, six o 'clock, relief. Come in for the game on Wednesday. So I'd come in after Saturday. I'd go to London, go out, do something else. Come in Saturday. Come in Wednesday. Play the game. And he said, I'll see you on Friday morning, son. Wow. Come in Friday morning, quick five aside, go and play Saturday.

1:05:46Gary Neville: Having been out on Thursday night, obviously. Having been out on Thursday night, obviously. But that was just because... What a week, that is. That's better than training. That's a week into week. That's better than training. That's better than training. Because it's going in... And people say, what about injury? Trevor Fraultes, I was asked to do it with Trevor. And Trevor said, what if you get injured? I said, what if I get injured in training? No, but Des, you didn't do any training. You played on the Saturday. You've not turned up Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. you've not turned up Sunday, Monday, Tuesday you've gone Wednesday night and then you've just done a five-a-side on a Friday Three games a week though is a lot on the body isn't it really?

1:06:13You think it is I don't think it is Do you not? Not a sense about it We did it No but we did it Full stop He did it I mean Phil you did it I think and I don't know because you played a lot of games on bounce and you played similar to what I did in terms of you played the whole league World Cup whole league European champion I found after that spell, not missing games, because most of the people after our World Cup, if you look at the whole team, most of them didn't play more than 20 games in the season, that season. I played the whole, didn't miss a game. And eventually I did it, did it, did it, did it.

1:06:48It wasn't physical. Mentally, I found it difficult to make good decisions. I started to make a couple of good decisions. And I can remember watching you and thinking, you know what I mean? And you'd been consistent for England. and he had a little period where he wasn't as consistent, that came after that spell. You didn't very really miss the game. Yeah. Because I just think your brain just goes into overload a little bit and your decision-making then, you know what I mean? And it's little things, isn't it, when you get a bit too tight, which you wouldn't have got before, do you know what I mean?

1:07:18All of a sudden you get turned and, do you know what I mean? You might have got away with it the other time, you didn't get away with it that time. But I think it's the overload of playing games. It's not the physical thing. Mental fatigue. Yeah, it's not the physical thing. It's not the physical. Can I ask you about, you just mentioned the Graham Taylor England thing, the documentary, it's still the greatest documentary of all time. Do I not like that? So you were about when that was going on. I mean, what was that like as an England player then? You were there, right?

1:07:45Ian Wright: I think I... We had a laugh with him. Probably, a couple of our mistakes probably cost him a couple of grey ears. And the Dutch linesman. But, hey, Graham Taylor, do you know what I mean? Because you've got to paint a picture of Graham Taylor. I can remember his first day. And when he came in, there was all the press there, and it was at Bishop Abbey at the time. And he says, we'll go for a warm-up, and we'll go round there. And then he stopped, and he jumped for joy, and his eyes are smiling because his dream has become England. Do you know what I mean? This guy was proud. And I think he was ahead of his time, you know.

1:08:25And I've got to tell you why, because his biggest problem he had, before Graham Taylor, when we used to meet up with England, and it was good for me as it happens, but when we used to meet up with England, you walk in and all the press were like round you all the time. So even when you had dinner, the pressman would be there. The pressman everywhere. Graham Taylor says, on Tuesday afternoon, we'll have a press conference and they didn't like it. Do you know what I mean? Because someone was with Lineker, someone was with Platty. They didn't like it. So he was way ahead of his time because if you look now, what happens now?

1:09:02But they hated him before it. So that was the first him and the press hated it. And then they went after his style of play because it was easy. They knew they had it. And obviously, if you're not successful, you're dead. You know what I mean? But things like that, he was ahead of his time. He organised it so the press can come on a Tuesday at 1 o 'clock, ask for the players you want, they'll come down and da-da-da-da. Yeah, exactly. Right? But because he used it, they hated him for it. Fleet Street. They wanted access to the players whenever they wanted. And there were a few players I think were behind Go Brown Taylor's back and they were Nick and not.

1:09:34You know how it's like with the pressman? Yeah. And it killed him. And to be fair, it killed him. And he took it really, really hard. I can remember having a team talk after we went out of the European Championship when we was in America. I can remember in America. Yeah. I remember the tabloids in America was all... It was the worst I've ever seen. I'll be truthful. It was the worst I've ever seen. I remember he was on the front page of a couple of papers. Do you know what I mean? It's saying, this man's wanted dead or alive. He's a picture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If seen, do not approach, armed and dangerous.

1:10:01That was a front page of two national newspapers, right? This was in... Remember, he's got a daughter, 14, 13, at school. Do you know what I mean? And this is why I didn't really want to go into it. I had no interest in going manger. Because I thought, I haven't got the rights to put my kids through that. Do you know what I mean? It was just... It was awful what we went through. And I can remember him having a team talk. and as he started talking, I see tears in his eyes. You know what you like to think? I see tears in his eyes. Was you in America? Yeah, yeah, I was in America. I said, remember the meeting we had in that projector room?

1:10:30Yes. And I see tears in his eyes. Was that the one that was wrong? You know what I mean? And you know what you feel for a man? They had murdered him. They had murdered him, the press. And I think it really started from when he changed the way players and press. Because he just thought, this is a free-for-all, yeah. And he's right, though. He was right.

1:10:49Ian Wright: It was chaotic. It was chaotic. and there was women you're going for dinner and they'll be sat in a corridor there and sat in a corridor there and he changed that but he was a victim of it really you know

1:10:59Gary Neville: This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing When was the song when did the song start You'll Never Beat Des Walker because that's one of the most famous After after about Terry's songs 20 games I think I don't know 20-30 games and they just you know what I mean at Trent End it was one of the ends he started singing and it just caught on. And to be fair, they sang it. I was quite lucky, really, because I know it pissed off every centre forward. They're still singing it. I know. Whenever I run in the channel, and they don't mean the centre forward, they'll be like, you know, they start singing it.

1:11:33Ian Wright: Some of them give up. No, what it was is that you'd make the run, and then it would just put the afterburners on, come in and either slide it out or get it, knock it back to the keeper, and they'd start singing it. You know, it was like... Well, it helps you the next time, doesn't it? Because all of a sudden, they think, well, if I'm not going to really get there, Yeah. Do you know what I mean? They're not really going to get there. I'm not going to go. Yeah, stop making the... Yeah, yeah, because the crowd are laughing at them to a degree. That's what they felt. And I can remember going in and saying...

1:12:07Do people still sing it to you now, if they see you? Yeah, now and again, now and again, now and again. I'm a truthful woman.

1:12:14Gary Neville: Let's talk about Forest now. the last couple of weeks have been obviously a big period for the club they obviously sacked Nuna what do you make of what's going on at Forest currently? To be fair, it's a shame really because they've stabilised themselves they've come up, they've been in a wilderness for such a long time to come up is difficult to come up at that division and the chairman's done fantastic really because he's put his money where his mouth is he's backed the team and they've stabilised last year and obviously Nuna's fantastic job last year And whether he could keep that up this year remains to be seen.

1:12:47And to sack him is brave. I say it's brave because Forrest fans have got the smell of success in their mind. And once you've got that smell of success, then if it don't happen, they can be very, very critical. That's anything. And you've got such a contrast in managers. You know, it stiles.

1:13:09Gary Neville: Do you know what I mean? I mean, the first next two, three weeks will be so interesting to see how they contrast that. You've got one that just played purely off the brain. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, purely, really, and with less possession probably than most teams. And then, obviously, Oskarlander's come in, and if you watch his recent record, he's got a completely different style. And so I'll be interested to see, because it takes a while to change from one style to another, a long while, to be fair. And whether he can do, whether the crowd will stick with you that long, I don't think so because they will just look at Nunes' record.

1:13:51That's all they'll do. So it's, and we all know, yeah, as much as how tough you are, but as a team, I think, Forrest, when the crowd are negative, they're poor. Do you know what I mean? I don't think, and that's been over the last 20 years I've seen. They've got themselves in good positions and as soon as the crowd were negative, the crowd had been probably the best crowd in the last three years in the division, in the Premier League. I've never seen Forest fans like it. Honestly, we've won loads of things. I've got to be truthful and got boos at times because they didn't think we won for enough goals.

1:14:27But at the moment, the momentum was, with the whole football club and the hole, was going like that. And you look at it now, if it plateaus, that's not good enough. And every manager needs time to adjust. I don't think he'll get time.

1:14:44Gary Neville: What would Brian Clough make of it if he was in there now? Depends if he was the one who was getting a sack or getting a job. If he was getting a job, he'd think he'd gone to a better man. But I don't know. I think he would think it's unfair. But I also thought when I look back on it, and I look back and my missus and her son, they're both season two goals, so they go every single week. And her son's 14, 15. And he'll ask me, oh, about Nunes. And I says, a couple of weeks ago, it came out that he had said that him and the chairman were. And I says, but what I don't understand is why that has to be public.

1:15:28I understand that the chairman can be difficult. I understand you're not getting on with the chairman, but when you make it public, there's only one winner now. That's the chairman. There ain't no other option. So either he won it or go, because you didn't have to make it public that you and him don't get on. Do you know what I mean? We've all been in football, so you know there's so many things in the background, you don't worry about that. You just get on with... Your job is to get on, mind your own business and get on with your game. And he should have done that if that was the case. But it seemed to me very strange that he'd come out and he said really and truly our relationship was broken down and we're not in a da-da-da-da-da because there's only one winner now.

1:16:05Which result was one week later and a 3-0 loss at home. So you're putting yourself under such immense pressure. Do you know what I mean? As soon as he was going to lose a game or two, that was it. Correct. Correct. Correct. Correct. And he's still living in Nottingham now. I am, yeah. I moved up in 81 and it's just a fantastic city. I think it's a really easy going city and I think there's a lot of players who've come to Forest over the years and stayed Do you know what I mean? I don't think rising was there long enough. He'd have been my next-door neighbour.

1:16:33Gary Neville: Can you have a word with the people of Nottingham for me and Jamie? I'm all right.

1:16:39Ian Wright: Des is still got a bike. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What, motorbike? Yeah, yeah. I've always... Have you come up on that today? No, no, no. Des is an unbelievable rider. I've always... I like being outside, I always like being outside of football. And I think a bike, golf, I play golf and ride bikes. And I think there are two things that when, if you ever meet people who ride bikes and you talk to them, they're not talking about Arsenal or Chelsea or United or Liverpool, about a bike. They're fanatical on a bike. So that takes away from football. You've played golf with someone, it's golf. They're not interested in football.

1:17:20Nothing else. And I think them two things I'm drawn to for that reason being is that I put my helmet on, dark helmet, even when I was playing this thing, but I've gone. No one knows who I am. Boom. Up to Scotland, I've gone on a ride and I've been in Scotland. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've just gone all the way to Scotland and I'll be back later on. I just think in my own little world, it takes me out of football because you are under pressure. Do you know what I mean? I enjoy the pressure, but I have a way to relieve it as well. Do you still go out on a Thursday, Des?

1:17:50Gary Neville: You want to join? He wants a nil. Listen, I stopped going out on a Thursday when I was 35. So I don't really go out and drink now. See, it isn't the fact that I had to drink. It's the fact that it was part of my, it became my routine. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it became my routine. Listen, if I didn't think I could play to my maximum on a Saturday, I'd have gone out every Wednesday. Yeah. Or every Tuesday. Do you know what I mean? It wasn't the fact. That's the reason why when it was a Monday, When Sky come in on a Monday, the Monday football come in, I go out Saturday, didn't you? We come in and it's a Tuesday.

1:18:25I was always out Saturday. That's a given after a game. Do you know what I mean? But if it was a Monday and you play Tuesday, I've got to go out to Sunday. And Sunday was a shit night out.

1:18:40But I'm going to go out. I'm going to go out anyway because it's two days for a game. I thought you were going to say if I wasn't going to play at my maximum and on a Saturday I wouldn't have gone out, but you said I would have gone out on a Wednesday. No, but if I couldn't think I could perform to the level that I expected myself to form, because I went out on a Thursday, I would have just changed it to a Wednesday. So it's not, it was, the Thursday was, that's when I felt like the best. Yeah. Two days before. Because I got really tired. You know what I mean? Obviously you come in and you're knackered in, you get up next day, you go training, I'm tired.

1:19:11I wouldn't sleep, but I'd sleep well. Ten hours on a Friday. Yeah. And I've set my alarm. I don't want to sleep more than 10 hours at 9 o 'clock. And that's it. I get up. So the routine was, as much as you think it was... Just about drinking. Probably not the right routine. It was a routine that I lived by. And Piercy, Piercy, you say to me, Piercy hated it. I got the truth because Piercy's his old man. And he said, I can't wait for you to play shit. You know what I mean? I can't wait for you to play shit because it's me and you. You're letting us down. You'll let us down if you play shit. And I said, Piercy, you won't live long enough to see me play shit.

1:19:48In all fairness, he never stuck one on me. I mean, he didn't play shit. That was your way of switching afters. Yeah. He's brilliant, the Bones. And as I say to you, you've got to find the best you. We're all the same. I've got to be true, we're not all the same. Same way that some people, they'll say to me, when I didn't play, one time I was injured, I was injured for seven months, eight months, one reserve game, one reserve, he took me off after 70 minutes, Clough. We played Sunderland. It changed my life, that game, because I played out my skin. You know when you used to, I didn't play for a name.

1:20:22I played out my skin. And I got booked unfairly. And I smashed a few here and here. Fair tackles. The club, they took me off. And I was fuming. Why did you take me off? I didn't play for a name. Eight, six months. And he said, he said, son, the referee's not very good, son. I didn't want you to get sent off because you're playing on Saturday. Wow. And Chris got suspended. So I played against Man Utd on a Saturday and then Tottenham on the Monday because it was an Easter bank holiday. We played Saturday, Monday. And then we played Everton, the finish, the last game. And I think myself, I've always been probably different where I played one game in seven months and then played Saturday, Monday, Saturday, and felt great.

1:21:02Do you know what I mean? Because I remember playing on a Saturday and he said, son, I don't think you can play Sunday, Monday, because you have not played for a long time. I said, I'm fine, Jaffa. How important, what you're saying there, because I know how you were about playing, and I, you know, you can't believe what he's saying on the Thursday night, you can't get your edge on that, but how much is football in your mind? Because if you'd gone out on the Thursday night, you couldn't function, could you're in the game? What I'm saying is, it's probably having the same effect to both of you, but psychologically, you're fine with it.

1:21:33Do you know what I mean? My two boys played football, they got to sleep, they have to sleep, they have to do this stuff, you have to find your way. Do you know what I mean? But it is a way. And it was a different time. Imagine Gazza. I can remember playing with Gazza in England. Gazza get up in the middle of the night and go fishing. One time we were playing at Wembley and we needed a draw to qualify for the World Cup. I come down at five o 'clock for tea and toast. Gazza's sweating like a pig. I said, where you been? He said, well, you ain't mun.

1:22:05He said, some Americans playing squash. I said, you want to play squash? he's had a five set of him at squash he goes up gets James come down best player on the pitch if you keep him still I always remember sometimes I don't know if you were who was the Italian manager England manager was you in the squad I was for the World Cup I know Italians they want you to stay in your room 8 hours a day Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what they want to do. They want you to stay in your room and just rest your legs. And I just think, if I stay in my room, when I get up to go and play football, I'm knackered. Yeah, yeah.

1:22:47Right. Because eventually after three, four, five weeks you are in a World Cup, you start getting depressed. Yeah. You've got to get out and play golf and do what you've got to do and this, that and the other. Do you know? It is what it is. It's an Italian way. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? An English way sometimes. And I think the players look tired. And a lot of them say tired. and I think because I'm pretty sure he must have kept them in their room and they look tired and do you know what I mean and a bit leggy because it's mental Jack Chatton used to do with us with Ireland I always said when we see a report on the Sunday Jack would almost insist you wind out you're playing the game on the Wednesday you couldn't do that now but on the Sunday you'd be like yeah go out switch off Monday and Tuesday he'll take care of himself the training was dead light and Brian Clough was another one for him he was definitely ahead of his time in terms of days off cutting back on the training he always said because a few times I've been, we played QPR in London.

1:23:39I was playing Tottenham in London the following Saturday. And I was only 19, something the other. And he had to ask him before, before you go down. He said, ask me before the game if you can stay down. Because if you ask me after the game, son, you might not be able to stay down. So I said, Gaffer, can I stay down? He said, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we played QPR, we beat him. So after the game, he called me and he said, you staying down in London? I said, yeah, yeah, Gaffer, yeah, yeah. He said, find out what hotel we're staying at next Friday and I'll see you there. Wow. Right? So he said, after the week.

1:24:14Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Liam O 'Kane said, he can't have a week off. He said, never. You know what he said? He said, I never told him not to train. I said, I'll see you next Friday. If he wants to train, that's up to him. Son, if you're shit on the Saturday, you won't play the following one. So you're under pressure, aren't you, right? He said, never. I didn't train because train won me. And I finished the game Saturday. Finished the game Saturday. And he called me and said, son, was you tired today? I said, no gaffer. You sure? I said, no gaffer. Well done. So he tested you a little bit, do you know what I mean?

1:24:48So he gauged, listen, he was no fool. But when he done that, he made sure he did well. Exactly, exactly. Put it on you so you know it's on you. So you could do what you have to do. Or you could come back and train. He said, my coach is there all the time. So he wasn't bothered how many days he gave off. How many days you take is down to you. As I say to you, the onus was more we're the professional. Do you know what I mean? So this is what, the onus was on you. And I say, I always think the onus is on me. And just the same way when, I can remember when people said to me, well, you're fit. And someone said, well, he's not fit.

1:25:26The physio said he's not fit. He can't play. And I said, I'm fit. Yeah. I said, you ain't got a right. Because, listen, you ain't paying my mortgage. You ain't got the right to say I ain't fit. Listen, there's no excuse when I walk on that park. And that's how I grew up. Do you know what I mean? Whereas sometimes my children now, and I listen, they're both professional footballers, and I think to myself, the physio's making a decision. He's making a decision. I say, what about your decision? The dictator to a lot more. Do you know what I mean? Just trying to step back from them, though. I do. I let them do whatever they got to do.

1:25:56You know what I mean? Yeah, I just, I find it. We debate little things, but when it comes to football, I let them do what you do you've got to make your own mistakes it's your do you know what I mean it's your thing I've done my job you're a polite kid you're a polite kid that's my job what position do they play centre forwards oh both of them they'll be right back soon they realise they realise they realise how hard their old man had to work and went to the easy position up there didn't they Des

1:26:26Gary Neville: unbelievable having you on the show yeah thank you one of the heroes of our childhood thank you very much Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

1:26:35Ian Wright: Ladies and gentlemen.

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