Hasselbaink: England’s Mistakes, Trent’s Midfield Gamble, Leeds & Chelsea Career | Stick to Football EP 92

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0:53Gary Neville: Jimmy, come on. Come and join us. Danny's got something to bring. Yes, me too. Where do you have to be, Jimmy? It's Guy.

1:02Roy Keane: Hi, Jimmy. Hi, Jimmy. I feel like we have to pretend we've just met now. Hi, Jimmy. Hi, you all right? I bet you get good memories when you see Nev. You must have scored on the back of Nev. I love Nev. Yeah. I love Nev. I love Nev. Scored a couple of Old Trafford. Remember, you latched one in.

1:16Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I love Jamie Moore, though. Yeah? Oh. Did you score against him? Medna. Did you score against him? Come on. Oh, Abramovich's first game. Was it Abramovich's first game at Anfield? Remember that one he latched in Old Trafford?

1:31Gary Neville: Jimmy, you stuck your arse into me once. What? Sorry. I'm fucking not kidding you. Jimmy just backed into me with his arse. I'm not kidding. I fucking winded me. You go round something. You think, what the fuck? That is the strongest backside I've ever...

1:51Gary Neville: Jimmy, I'm telling you, honestly... Look at his arms! Look at his arms! Oh, brilliant, thank you. We were just talking about Suriname.

2:00Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Suriname? Yes.

2:02Gary Neville: I was born there.

2:03Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: When did you move over to Europe? When I was six to the Netherlands. It used to be a colony of the Netherlands. Yeah. And all the boys, well, majority of the boys, all their parents are from there, or they were born there. People like Seedorf, Davids, That's Kloevert, Reisiger, Ruduller, Rijkaard. Wow. All the black boys who were in the Dutch national team. It's all Suriname. All Suriname. And it's in South America. Van Dijk. It's in South America. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Next to Brazil. Well, no, sorry. Above Brazil, next to English Guayana and French Guayana. Yeah.

2:50Gary Neville: And what do you remember about growing up, though? Obviously, you were six when you moved. Yeah.

2:54Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Oh, gosh. What do I remember? Not a lot. I was, yeah, just a little boy. Was he playing football then? Not yet. Not yet. Running after my brother. I'm the youngest of six. So my brother was three years older than me. Always going after my brother. And wherever my brother is going, I'm following. once I remember I followed him, he didn't recognise that I was, he didn't know that I was following him, and I crossed the road and I was hit by a motorcycle, broke my leg.

3:32Gary Neville: Wow.

3:33Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah, broke my leg. How old are you here? Sorry? How old are you then? I was five, I think, I was five, broke my leg. Which leg was it? My right, my right. We both? Yeah, my right, my right leg. I've done mine as well. Broke my leg. A nurse was driving the motorcycle. Got me to the hospital. Obviously got into operation and all that kind of stuff. Then a year later we emigrated to the Netherlands. But my leg was growing a little bit wrong. So they had to break it again and reset it. And if you look at my pictures, my right leg was always going a little bit in. That's from that. from when I was five and hit by a motorcycle.

4:21Roy Keane: That could have been so bad, though. Like, obviously, a broken leg, but you're looking to get away with a broken leg. Well, here you go. But did it affect you when you strike the ball? As you got older, because obviously you had an unbelievable shot.

4:32Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Well, it must have affected me. So it was a good thing? In a good way. It must have affected me in a good way. I was always I was always scared of getting another operation or if I got injured with my with my leg or whatsoever that I needed another oppo whatsoever so I never did I always played played through the pain or or made sure that my thighs were like really strong to protect it and stuff you know the thing because you're there because we both had the same kind of leg. It kicks out that way. Did you find that you could side foot it with more power? Because what happens is, it's because your legs turned like that.

5:20Yeah. So when you come in, normally people, it'd be the laces, but what I found is, obviously Jimmy as well, obviously when you did strike as well, you can hit the ball so much harder with that part of your foot because of the way your leg is naturally shaped. Yeah. Naturally turned out. You can get more power.

5:36Gary Neville: My side foot was hard. Yeah, it was. How is it going to affect your dancing? you find out for Strictly that's going to be a different story

5:43Roy Keane: I'm excited to watch you on do you like dancing Jimmy

5:46Gary Neville: come on Jimmy show us a little dance

5:50Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: don't dance brother chill chill I've got only girls obviously in my house so we're doing girly things and we're always doing dancing and make up I love that So, yeah. And Strictly is a show that we, as a family, we always watch. Oh, my gosh. All through the years. And I've got, like, I've got videos of the girls when they were, like, eight and nine dancing with Strictly in the background.

6:25Roy Keane: Oh, that's lovely.

6:27Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: You know, so, yeah, it's more for them. How do you feel, Jim? I feel nervous as hell, honestly, because it's totally out of my comfort zone and it's not really something that I would really do. How much work? You know them shows, would you be practising all day, like Monday to Friday and then do the show on a Saturday? It's a big commitment.

6:49Roy Keane: It's massive. It can be like three months, can't it, I think?

6:53Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: You know how we are. When we were playing, we were competitive. When we were playing sports, we want to win, aren't we? So that is what it's going to be. I'm going to try to do, if I'm shit. Sorry, can you say that? Can you dance? I have rhythm. I have rhythm. Hello, hello. Hello, hello. I have rhythm. Your dance is a whole different ballgame. This is the thing, Jim. It's the salsa, it's the balls, it's whatever it is. That is the thing, isn't it? I admire you. It's not us, isn't it? I admire you for taking that on. It's one of the things I don't think I would ever try that because I'm too scared of the amount of work that's got to go into the actual getting that dance.

7:39And there's so...

7:40Roy Keane: I find the judges really tough. Yeah, they are. Greco is tough. Would you have ever done it right? No, no, no. You can dance, can't you? I can't dance. I can't dance. Jimmy did. You're not my dad's grounded, are you? You know what? When Prince comes up... You can only dance to Prince. I can only dance to Prince. I love the fact that you mention out of your comfort zone. That's a good thing. I might be voting for Karen Carney. You do well, because it's not just about the dancing, is it? It's about your personality, isn't it? You do great, man. You know Kaz is doing it, don't you? Yeah. Karen Carney.

8:12The whole family. Yeah. The whole Irish clan. Yeah. Hey. Yes. You've got great support. Don't worry about that.

8:19Gary Neville: This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing.

8:23Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I always had the feeling that I had to prove myself. Wherever I was, I knew about Leeds, but I didn't know how big the club was. I had to be more physical, I had to hold the ball up. He was big on holding the ball. Hold the ball! Hold the ball! He wanted somebody else. Fine.

8:45Gary Neville: Who did he sign when you left? I think he signed for Duka, didn't he? £40 ,000.

8:53Gary Neville: Then you scored 69 goals in 36 games for Chelsea. It's a frightening record.

8:59Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah, I've done well. You know that we hear that You know that we will see that Do you not want us to win? What's the answer? You tell me Jimmy,

9:17Gary Neville: you moved to Holland when you were six Talk to us about when you first got into football and you first started to be coached over there

9:24Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: So my brother, who is three years older than me He began really being like really into football. And I just wanted to be... Like him? Yeah, like him. So I was always following him and always like wanting to be around him. So when he started playing football, I also wanted to play football. But I was not allowed, you know. You know how it is when you have got an older brother. It's not cool that the older brother is letting the young one play with him and his mate. So I had to ask back and eventually I was allowed to play football with them. And I had to go in goal first. You know, sorry. So I had to go in goal first and start.

10:10Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: And that was really what life was in the beginning. Playing football, going to school, coming home, get your ball, play football outside every day. You know, coming home dirty, really didn't really bother about school. Next day, the same. And we moved, and I was in my teens when we moved to another part of the country. And it was really a bad area where we lived. and then you become involved with bad friends and all that kind of stuff and you become now out of a sudden a little bit harder because you have to fight and all that kind of stuff. But it shapes you. When did you realise you was a good footballer, like better than average?

11:06Because then if you're in and around those guys, something's got to take you away from them. What happened?

11:11Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: So my luck was that I was always playing with all the guys. I was always playing with my brother's mates. So you had to hold your own and you had to become better. So around like 12, 13, where clubs start to notice me, that is where I thought, okay, this is something I can do. But then I was discovered really quite late, a little bit like you. I was discovered like at 17, I got my first professional contract, you know, at 17 with a really small club, not with the Ajaxes or the PSV. I've never, Telstar, I've never played for the three big ones.

12:00Roy Keane: And was that as a striker? No, I started, believe it or not,

12:04Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I started as a midfielder. Oh. I started as a midfielder. As a right midfielder. Are you keen type? No.

12:11Gary Neville: You always think of Dutch players as being well coached because they've come through these academies with amazing coaching systems. You've obviously had a completely different path.

12:20Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I had a different path, but the coaching was still good.

12:23Gary Neville: Even under 13, 14?

12:25Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: It's always been there. That's always been with the Dutch. They let you always play a position and they expect you to be tactically aware. That's how they coach. Even in the Sunday games or Saturday games? Even in the Sunday games. Sorry, Gary. You know, when you say that, we've always gone through academies or School of Excellence, I think it was called, when we were coming through. And there's always this thing about the Dutch and you can play different positions and the coaching and the tactical. What was it they do different? Are you just getting different information in Holland than maybe other countries.

13:05What is it about that country?

13:07Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I think it's more position-specific. You know? From early on, they know already what position you're going to play and they stick with that. But we've always been totally opposite that. In Holland, it was this thing that, like, everyone learns how to play every position. If you're in Ajax, if you're a left-back, sometimes they'll put you on the right wing or you learn. Is that not true? No, I don't think so. It's a good one to believe for a while. It sounded good. No, the only one I can remember is Edgar Davids. He started as a left winger. And he was really good. He was really good as a left winger.

13:50Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: But then he became obviously a central midfielder. But the majority of the players, oh, Reisiger as well, started as a 10, but was not good enough. and technically was not good enough, so they put him right back.

14:05Roy Keane: I knew you were going to say back. I knew he was going to say back. It's a bit of a theme, Jimmy. I knew you were going to say back.

14:14Gary Neville: There's always a disappointment, a despondent element to people's voice here. They put him right back.

14:21Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: And he became one of the best right backs ever. You know, so... Like a girl. Yeah.

14:27Gary Neville: Did you start as a striker as well? Midfield. Then went to centre-back, then moved across to right-back. I started centre-forward. There's nowhere else to go. It's a go-go. I played for England at centre-forward at 16. I was England centre-forward at 16, yeah. I didn't know that.

14:43Roy Keane: Did you get a lot of goals? Yeah. Everybody used to talk about Jamie, how good Jamie was at centre-forward. What kind of forward were you, like, running behind, coming to school? When I was younger, say 10 or 11, I was a goal scorer. I was a number nine, up front, broke all the records for goals. and then when you get to the age, I mean, is this my episode? Honestly, go back out and come back in. And then when I got to sort of 13, 14 when I was playing for England, I was a late developer physically, you know, the lads are getting bigger. So I didn't have sort of the pace to run in behind, so I become more of a between the lines man.

15:22Holding the ball up, bringing people into play. And then I played my first game for Liverpool Reserves was centre forward.

15:28Roy Keane: Wow. Yeah, that was probably 16, 17, yeah. Wow, we'll have to get clips of that. Nothing new, sir. It's like Jimmy. I was going to say, Jim, so you're a goal scorer, brilliant goal scorer. Were you always a good goal scorer?

15:40Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Not in the earlier years. Not in the... When I went to Telstar, I was still a midfielder. When I went to... So what happened, Telstar, you think, you're the man, I'm still living at home. I'm earning a little bit of money I think it's 250 quid a week you know but I'm the man I help my mom a little bit here to buy grocers and stuff fill the fridge but I still have got like my old friends around me so I'm always late at training and sometimes I call in sick when you wasn't When I wasn't, this was when I was 17, manager then says, Jim, ciao, finish. So then luckily, my brother was at AZ. Arkma. Arkma, yeah.

16:40Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: As a professional as well, professional footballer. He speaks to the manager. The manager says, okay, let him come over. He can have a week with us and let us see what he can do. So when they liked me, I stayed there. Had two years there. Then I had to go back to the non-league because they didn't renew my contract. So was you playing at midfield at this time? At this time I still play at midfield. So I went back non-league and then non-league I started playing as a striker. Right. And then I got noticed by my agent, Humphrey Nyman, who's the agent of Hato and Wijnaldum. Right. Got noticed by him.

17:30Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: He said, Jim, I've got a club for you in Portugal, but you have to go on trial. So I went on trial there, left my friends behind, went on trial, stayed a week in Portugal. They gave me a contract, two years long. Who was the club? Camp Majoranze. And the rest is a history. And you just started scoring in history? Started scoring. We went down that year, I scored 14 goals, and then I got a move to Boa Vista. And then the year after, so at Boa Vista I scored 27 goals. Do you remember a player called Nuno Gomez? Yeah. So me and Nuno Gomez up front scored 27 goals that year. How old was you then? I was...

18:15Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: 1997. I was 25. Right. I was 25. Ready, ready.

18:19Gary Neville: Wow.

18:20Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Then I had the move to Leeds.

18:21Gary Neville: How long were you non-league for then? One year. One year. One year. And what's that, the equivalent of the National League?

18:27Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: National League here. Here. Yeah. That is part-time, really. So I was working in a bakery and I was playing football at that time.

18:37Roy Keane: You know, the move to Portugal, did that allow you just to focus on football, get away from kind of...

18:43Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah, so I was away from everybody. I was by myself. And very coincidentally, my girlfriend at the time was pregnant. We didn't know yet. So when I moved, she found out that she was pregnant. And then you have choices to make, haven't you? So I had to grow up. She was still in Holland. She was working in Holland. so at that in the bakery no no no he's in the bakery she had a better she had a better job she had a better job she had a bun in the oven though anyway yeah so had to sort my act out and I could focus you know I was by myself and focused and really focused on my football and yeah I did well

19:37Gary Neville: this episode of Stick to Football It's brought to you by Arm Clothing.

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20:21Gary Neville: You mentioned focus and you said you're leaving that behind. What were you getting up to when you were back in sort of Holland that was sort of maybe distraction for you or not giving you that focus?

20:29Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah, it was just a bad, bad area. Bad, bad, bad, bad place. A lot of fighting, a lot of stealing, a lot of stuff going on, you know, around that. You're getting pulled into that. And you're getting pulled into that, yeah. Is it just because of the company you kept? Company you kept, yes. Never you, it's always the company, isn't it? No, no, no. All of us, all of us. It sounds like you're in Liverpool. Something like it. But no, it's me, I take the responsibility, you know, But the move came at the right time, really. And from there, I played one year at Camp Mance, one year at Boa Vista, two years at Leeds, and then all of a sudden I was at Atletico Madrid.

21:20Gary Neville: Talk to us about Leeds. You go to Leeds. That call comes. Who rings you first up?

21:27Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: So there used to be a scout called Ian McNeil, who used to work for George Graham, who scouted me when I was at Boa Vista. I think George Graham watched me three matches together with David O 'Leary, and he took a chance on me, two million quid. That was at the time when he just left Arsenal and went to Leeds. And Leeds was at the bottom of the league, more or less. He saved them and he started building his own team. And he got me in as one of the strikers. And I think that was the best thing that could have happened. Did you know much about Leeds then? Did you know what you were going to do? I knew about Leeds because we get in Holland, we get BBC and we get match of the day.

22:29Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: So we know everything about the English football. I didn't know how big the club was. I knew about Leeds, but I didn't know how big the club was and the history really and the hatred between Leeds and Man United. But you learn that really quickly when you arrive there. But I had a magnificent time. I really, really loved it. really, really loved it at Leeds. And just Graham was, he was tough. He was, called me all sorts of names. It was good for me. It was perfect for me. I was going to say, because you know the first game, we played the first game of the season. That's what I was going to say.

23:19Jimmy, run! Run, Jimmy! It's a fucking nightmare.

23:23Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they called me lazy. They called me lazy. and I thought I was running like hell. He said, oh, you're lazy. You know what? I think that was it, because he used to do that to me all the time, not making enough runs when you know you are, even if you score and you're making runs. I just think that that was one of his ploys, just keep you going, you know what I mean?

23:45Roy Keane: Yeah. Right, but he never gave any, maybe that's what I was thinking, Jimmy, when you scored, you never used to praise me. No, never. But even yourself, you didn't even celebrate. Your face was always so vexed. Where's that vexedness come from?

23:56Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Because, yeah, I was an angry player because I had to play angry. I always had the feeling that I had to prove myself wherever I was. You know, wherever I came, I always was straight away from day one under pressure. So it was always like, oh, I'm going to show them. Is that from your childhood, you mean a little bit? I think so, yeah. Moving country to young age. I think so. but I'm I'm not an angry person really you know but I had to play that way and football was totally different than it is now you know did you enjoy the physicality I loved it I knew what was coming I didn't mind it ready for it yeah and I know I was going to give some you know so yeah you were at a good age as well to go on to Leeds weren't you you weren't like a child you were quite mature we had the Gary Kellys we had the Ian Hards

25:00Roy Keane: I remember that

25:02Gary Neville: Jimmy I'm not going to come back to you but it's a similar journey to Jocker as a little bit now in terms of coming from Portugal to the Premier League in terms of the sort of step you've watched him obviously in the first couple of weeks what's your thoughts in terms of how he would because it's an unfashionable sort of you'd be an unfashionable striker back then a little bit in terms of your I agree

25:24Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I hope for him that Arsenal plays to his strength. That it's not the other way around, that he needs to go and work for them. He's come in to score goals. I hope that Arsenal create chances for him to be able to score goals. And then, of course, in the big matches where you're not going to get lots of chances, you need to find a way to make your own chance. but overall I hope that it is not what Arsenal has been doing in the last two years. Be specific about that, what sort of things? I think Arsenal has got a way of everybody needs to defend and everybody behind the ball and everybody needs to run back and blah, blah, blah.

26:14Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: If you look at the successful teams, really, yeah, everybody works hard but one or two players are allowed to cheat a little bit. They call it cheating in England. I don't call it cheating. Like, for instance, Salah. Exactly. Salah is allowed to stay a little bit high. But the moment Liverpool wins the ball, they straight away have got that outlet. I think if Arsenal does something like that with him, I think you will get a lot more goals. That's why I always go back to Havre to that. I think Arteta loves Havre because of what you're saying. He always does that way, but then he's probably never going to get you the goals, is he?

26:58Yeah, but the thing is, you look at Gabriel, he's got injured on the edge of our box, Danny's arm string, our number nine. I know what you're saying, but you do want him up there, but you do want him up there and people feeding it into him. It's not everybody needs to be... Revis Gorgner's going to score goals.

27:13Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: He's going to score goals around the box and stuff. if he has to carry the ball if he has to run every time 60 metres to go and get a chance

27:25Gary Neville: it's going to be difficult What did George Graham expect from you in terms of how you played because you scored a bucket load of goals at Leeds I've seen it's 34 goals in 69 games that's a lot of goals that's a near on now 100 million pound striker in this day and age what would he expect of you when you first went to Leeds that was different than Portugal So I had to be more physical.

27:46Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I had to hold the ball up. He was big on holding the ball up. Hold the ball! Hold the ball! If you would lose the ball, it doesn't matter how hard the defender is coming in your back. Hold the ball, you're not strong enough. In the beginning, I was always on the floor. So he wants you to hold the ball and he wants you to run the channels. And back in the day, it was 4-4-2. You had to run the channels. Who's your partner? First was Rod Wallace. Oh. And then Harry Kiel. Yes, Harry. Harry Kiel, yeah. Good front two to have up with you, eh? Yeah. Harry was lively. Who gave you a lot of assists? And then Smith, Alan Smith as well.

28:27Roy Keane: Who gave you a lot of assists in that time?

28:33Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Harry.

28:34Roy Keane: Yeah.

28:34Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Harry Moore. We had... We were different. We had so much energy. We had Haaland in midfield who could run. Yes. Could he? Yeah.

28:52Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: We had David Hopkins in the first year. Yes. We had like lots of energy. Harry Kiel started on the left. We had Bruno Roberto as well. A lot of players who didn't have big names. So we were more like a team and we needed to be energetic, running around. And from there, counterattacking. And from there, we would get chances. Lee Boyer was there as well.

29:28Gary Neville: How do we get to a point where after two seasons, 34 goals and 69 games, how do we get to a point where you leave Leeds? Surely they want to keep you.

29:36Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah, well, they didn't want to keep me until this day. they didn't want to keep you so what happened George Graham who left two spurs at half way of the second season and I was George's bye wasn't I so our relationship even though that he would never say Jimmy I love you he loved me I was doing well for him so he had his he had his ways he gave me the tough love but the moment he left and David O 'Leary took over in a way when a manager comes in he wants to put his own stamp on it and he wants to bring in his own players really and rightly so that is his prerogative and I'm Dutch if I don't what does that mean?

30:36Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: that means we know that we know that You're going to tell him. I'm direct. If you don't agree with something, you would want to have that conversation. Yes. You know? So I don't think that that was always appreciated.

30:53Gary Neville: What conversations would you have been there? You're scoring goals. What didn't you like about you? What was it that you were sort of having debates about?

30:58Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I can't give you an exact answer. This is my feeling. Right, okay. This is my feeling. because the moment when the end of the season comes and I've got two years left and they want to speak to me about a new contract and I'm saying, OK, let's do it. And I'm saying, I want X. And they say, no, that is too much. And I'm saying, OK. What would X have been back then, Jimmy?

31:31Gary Neville: I asked for 30. 30 a week? 30 a week, yes. So What was the What was the Was that breaking their Was that breaking their wage In respect of So who would be On that kind of money Was anyone on that kind of money I don't think that anyone That was 1.5 million It's about 1.5 million Who would have been on that In the league though Jimmy at that time He's obsessed with wages No no no In your contract You should have brought your contract You should have brought your contract No I'm talking about If you think about Sort of in the league At that time Who would have been on that Level of money

32:03Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I think I think players at Arsenal players at Can I just speak clear? Players at Arsenal probably I'm telling you No? I couldn't have seen that No Dennis No Dennis Berkham? Dennis probably He would have been No No That's what I'm saying That's what I was thinking Dennis Yeah Maybe players at Man United Maybe players at Chelsea

32:26Gary Neville: Yeah

32:28Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: And that year we finished fourth in the league How many goals did you get? Champions League, I top scored her with Dwight Jorke and Michael Owen. So you thought you were in a good bargaining position, obviously. And he was, yeah, of course. So I asked for 30. They said no. I said, OK, no problem. Let's kick on. Yeah. Let's kick on. I'm not signing. They said, no, no, we offer you this. I said, no, I don't want that. How far were you away? What were they offering? 29. LAUGHTER What was they offering? I signed for 12, 13, 14, 15. That's what I signed for. Four-year contract. And I played two years.

33:21Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: And my signing on fee was in that 12. Okay. Yeah? No problem. Yeah? So I said, okay, no problem. Let's go. Let's kick on. They said, no, no, no, no, no, Jim. We have to protect our asset. Yeah? In a year's time, you're not going to be worth as much as you are now because you will have one year left. I said, okay, give me what I want. Yeah. So you wanted to stay, Jim? I wanted to stay. Give me what I want. No, you're not getting that. Who's doing this with you? Richdale. And in the background is David O 'Leary. So if I'm your man, if I'm your man, and I'm doing the business for you, you as a manager, you come to me and you speak to me.

34:07You say, Jimmy, I can't let you go.

34:09Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: That conversation never happened. Never, never, never, never happened. So then they said, if you don't sign, you have to go. Who said that to you? Richdale? Yeah. If you don't sign, you have to go. Okay, then I go. How long was it dragging out? If you bluff me, then I go. How long was it dragging out? Was it dragging out? What were the fans doing? So then what happened? Jimmy wants to go.

34:37Gary Neville: Oh. Yeah. Jimmy wants to go. Leaked out or statement? Statement. Oh, wow. Did you do the statement?

34:44Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: No, no, no, no, no. So Jimmy wants to go. Leaked out then, leaked out. Yeah. So, no, they put out Jimmy wants to go. Then they said, Jimmy is asking way too much money. We can't pay that. our highest paid player, Jimmy has asked, 50 % more than our highest paid player. That's what Jimmy has asked.

35:04Roy Keane: Did they put that out?

35:05Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: They put that out.

35:06Roy Keane: Oh, that's dumb.

35:07Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah, they put that out. So then I'm saying, OK, what is that player on? Say, say, what is that player on then? Because if you're saying 50 % more, let's do the maths. And who is that player? That player was Lucas Radibi. I used to get on with Lucas, fine, blah, blah, blah. But we all know that strikers are being paid the money.

35:40Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: And I'm doing the business at the time.

35:45Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: So it goes from bad to worse. Then now all of a sudden, my agent is doing his work because, of course, if he's not going to speak to other clubs, then he's not working in the best interest for me. So Chelsea comes in. They don't want to let me go to Chelsea. I now say, okay, it's done now. I want to go. They said, you need to ask for a transfer request. And in those days, when you ask for a transfer request, you're signing on fees. We're giving up. So I said that. They said, don't worry. We will sign a letter that you will still get your signing on fees. Yeah. I signed that letter and I put in a transfer request.

36:33Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Five minutes later, it's on Sky.

36:37Roy Keane: Really?

36:38Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Joking. Did I ask for the transfer request?

36:41Roy Keane: So back in the day, if you put in a transfer request, the signed non-fee would go to the club? You forgave your sign. Yeah, forfeit. Oh, is it still the same now? It's still the same. I think if you ask for the transfer, you don't get your money, is it? That's why the clubs want the player to push the deal. Oh, OK. I never knew that. You have to put your transfer request in if you want to leave. So they play the fans.

37:03Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: The fans are absolutely going mad. I'm greedy. People at my house. I can't walk over the street no more. It's in my car, training, training, back. I'm not saying that I'm not playing. You're in pre-season at this point. I'm training. I'm playing the pre-season matches. I remember we had a game at Birmingham. And all the fans on top of me, I'm like, bad. Bad, bad, bad, bad. But you never refused to play? I never refused to play. Never refused to play. Because I said, okay, I've got a contract. I'll play. And I'll still do my best. Because I'm 25 at the time. I'm thinking, if I'm going to play, I'm going to play.

37:51Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Okay, not what I want, but I back myself. Yes. Yes. Was that a good way to negotiate when you said to a club, I want this or nothing? Is there any negotiating where you go, it's like every other deal you go, I want that, and you try and meet somewhere, no, were you just saying? You know, they didn't want, they said, no, it's this. All right. They didn't even want to, I said, come on, they didn't even want to, you know? Negotiate. So that's why I'm saying he didn't fancy me. He wanted somebody else, and fine. Who did he sign when you left? I think he signed... I think he signed for Duka, didn't he?

38:28Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: For Duka. For Celtic. On 40 grand. Not bad. Oh.

38:37He went for 10 million.

38:38Gary Neville: It was like 10 million, I think, for Celtic. Yeah. Unbelievable. And so what happens in that they won't sell you to an English club? So they won't sell me to an English club,

38:46Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: so I had to go to Adelaide to Madrid.

38:47Gary Neville: You were forced, essentially, to go abroad. Yeah, look.

38:50Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah. Yeah. That's not a bad move, does it? No. And luckily, Atletico Madrid came in.

38:59Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: And, yeah. They paid how much for you, Jimmy? 12 million. So, Leeds bought me for 2 million. I was sold for 6. Sorry, I was sold for 12. And that was six-time profit. What was good business for Leeds? You know, so, well done. Who's the same up front with Atletico? Alone. Alone? 4-3-3. Wow. Yeah.

39:27Roy Keane: Did you prefer the lone striker or with a two? With a two. With a two.

39:31Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I was always somebody that needed somebody close to me.

39:35Roy Keane: Yeah.

39:35Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: You know, around me. And you were happy with the contract? You obviously got an Atletico. No complaints. Neto. Was it Neto? Yes. We liked the Neto. We liked the Neto. What did you score a golf legend playing lone striker? It scored... You were top scorer, were you? Not in the league. There was Salva who played at Racing Santander. So he was the top scorer of Racing Santander. I was top scorer at Atletico. And we both went down. Wow. We both went down. And you scored 24 goals. I scored 27 goals in the league. In total, 37 with all the cups and blah, blah, blah. We went to Coppola del Rey final.

40:20Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: We lost that against Pochettino. And you took him down? And we went down.

40:25Roy Keane: What was the rest of the team doing? It's just you.

40:31Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: So there was lots of problems at the club. Certain players were not getting paid. Certain players threw the towel in because they were not getting paid. Gilly Hill, you remember Gilly Hill? He went to jail. Yeah, lots of stuff going on. So we went down. And then luckily Chelsea came in for me. again and they bought me for 15

40:55Gary Neville: This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing So were you happy to keep moving was there any stage you thought I wanted to be at a club for 5, 6, 7, 8 years were you happy to try new experiences Well I had no choice I had no choice

41:08Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: with Atletico I had no choice because we went down but then when I went to Chelsea I had 4 years at Chelsea I had 4 years at Chelsea and yeah obviously we didn't win anything because you guys kept on winning everything. Sorry about that. Yeah, sorry. You're not sorry. He's not sorry. I know, I know.

41:32Roy Keane: Did you get top goalscorer in the Premier League though in your first season, Chelsea? That's amazing.

41:37Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah, my first year.

41:37Roy Keane: Really good.

41:39Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: But I came back, obviously everybody remembered how I left Leeds and I left Leeds with a really bad name. So then when I came back to England, I was straight away on the pressure because the journalist or the media was straight away on my back. Greedy, greedy Jimmy is coming back. You know, so... Yeah, no. We were saying that in our dressing room. He's a greedy fella. It was good for me to come back because I'm... Yeah, it was good for you, but we were thinking you're greedy. I made the salary high for you. You helped us. No, but yeah. So, coming back and what you're saying, angry. So in a way, I was like, I need to prove myself here.

42:24I need to make sure that 15 million is right.

42:34Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: You like Chelsea. Did you love Chelsea? Yeah, I loved Chelsea. I must say, honestly, I had a really good time at Leeds and I loved living in Yorkshire. Chelsea was different because I became a much better player I saw football in a totally different way, I was playing out of a sudden with and it started in Spain a little bit and with all due respect with Leeds but we had a working team at Leeds and at Chelsea there was so many technical players you know and now out of a sudden and I was never a technical person And now all of a sudden, I really had to concentrate on my touch. I really had to concentrate on my runs.

43:21Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: But when you were making good runs, people were picking you out as well. Exactly. That's where I had a really good relationship with Gianfranco and with Ida Good-Johnson. What a player he was. Zola doesn't get enough credit for me, but what a player. Also, Ida Good-Johnson doesn't get enough credit.

43:40Gary Neville: Who were the strikers that you watched when you were 18, 19, 20, playing in the non-league, whether in Holland or around the world, that you looked at and thought, that's what I want to be, that's how I model my game on?

43:52Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: You know, the striker that I really, always, really, really, really loved was Romario. Yeah, actually. Yeah, it was Romario. He used to be at PSV first and then he went to Barcelona. always loved Romario little quick would score goals in different ways with his toes all kind of ways that was the striker that I always looked at Ronaldo and R9 Ronaldo is the best What experiences did you have even quite a young player Portugal, Spain, England. Some great experience with Jimmy, weren't they? Yeah.

44:41Roy Keane: Did you enjoy your time with the national team? Loved it. Yeah.

44:45Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Really loved it.

44:46Roy Keane: There were some good players around then. We were trying to debate the best Dutch 11 and it's so hard, isn't it? But there was so... How many... I remember you and the Dutch squad. Was there a lot of unbelievable strikers

44:58Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: at the same time? It was so difficult. I have 27 caps. But my time was... Berkamp. Berkamp. Patrick van Hooydonk, who in England didn't really make it, but has got a really big name in the Netherlands. Van Esterhoy. Wow. Mackay. And then came Coit. Were you in the squad against Ireland that time? Did you come on there? I came on. You had about nine strikes on at the end, didn't you? I still couldn't score.

45:33Roy Keane: Were you playing that game? We played that game. What was the score? They were bringing home. We won 1-0, yeah.

45:39Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: But they had... Killed us. Killed us. The strikers had on the pitch. We didn't go to the... Was it the World Cup or was it the European Cup? World Cup, yeah. Yeah, we didn't go to the World Cup. And the players you had, I believe.

45:49Gary Neville: Who was in the team at that point? You named those strikers. Obviously Bergkamp would have been in with. Who else? So Patrick would always play. Patrick Klaivet would always play.

45:57Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Patrick would always play because... So with... No, with hitting, it was always Bergkamp would play. and then he would put Koku behind or Patrick would play and he would put Berkham behind with Van Gaal. Doesn't matter what happened, Patrick would play. That's his son. Patrick would play. Just because of the relationship and how he knew him from Ajax. At Ajax, he brought him through and to be fair, he has always delivered for him. he delivered the Champions League he's always delivered for him he trusted him huh? yeah he trusted him so always him and then sometimes it was me up top with Patrick behind sometimes

46:52Gary Neville: where was Van Nesteroy at this point? was he younger?

46:55Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: he was younger Van Nesteroy came in when Advokat became the manager and when Frank Rijkaard became the manager That was interesting to me when you said about Clive, because I think most of us, and rightly so, probably think of Clive as a number nine, great striker. I remember him playing for Barcelona at Anfield. He beat us 3-1 in a Champions League group stage, and Rivaldo played centre-forward. And he played him behind. He was unbelievable in the game. But something else you just said there about Van Hooydonk having a big name in Holland and not so much in England. Do you think that was a problem for you in terms of the national team that you'd made in England?

47:32Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah, big time. They don't look at me in Holland like how they are looking at me in England. Because I haven't played for the three big ones in Holland. And also, I'm not the typical Dutch striker. I want goals. I want goals. And the Dutch striker, they want to play with the back to the goal and pass and this and that. and then come in front of the goal, first post, goal. And I'm like, no, I can get that early. Let's go and do it. Let's stop mocking about. And that has never really been appreciated.

48:19Gary Neville: You say it's never appreciated, but your goals, I mean, Leeds have just given you your record. You've told us how many goals you scored in Spain, but then you scored 69 goals in 36 games for Chelsea.

48:30Roy Keane: Wow.

48:31Gary Neville: It's a frightening record. Yeah, I've done well.

48:36Roy Keane: Very well. He knows them stats, don't worry about it. No, no, yeah, I know them.

48:41Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: You know, I don't know if right is it, but I don't forget goals. The goals that I have scored. But that had to be my thing, goals. You know, I was never going to do a Henry, get the ball in my own box and run, you know, and then score. no you know so i i and i understood that i knew that i knew that my right foot was really good i knew that i had to work on my left foot i knew that i had to work on my headers movement in the box i had so i had to be clever with myself so so every little yard that i could get, I could find the corner. If I find the corner with my inside foot, I know I have a good chance of scoring.

49:34So, that is where I just played at. It's amazing, the buzz you got from scoring right is the same, isn't it? You can never beat that feeling, can you? Never replicate that. Never got tired of it.

49:44Gary Neville: What happened at the end at Chelsea? You left just before Mourinho. You're just on the verge of Mourinho coming in. Yeah.

49:53Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Story of my life.

49:58So Mourinho came in, Peter Kenyon called my agent,

50:05Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: said, I had one year left, Jimmy can go. Mourinho never spoke to me, never had one word to say to me, never called, nothing.

50:20Gary Neville: He'd made his mind up. He made his mind up. It's interesting that, Jimmy, because I'm not... he went and visited all the international camps because it was the summer of the 2004 Portugal tournament he came to the England camp to meet John Terry Frank Lampard I don't know who else but he went and done that so obviously he was going around meeting all the players that he felt were coming and he never spoke to you once he didn't meet me

50:42Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: no no no no no afterwards afterwards he did say I've made a mistake She've kept you. Yeah, but then it was too late. I went to Middlesbrough and I had a really, really good first year. And if you remember, Drogba came. And Drogba in his first year, I think first year, first two years, no, first year, he didn't score a lot of goals. They became champion in the first year, but it was more Frank Lampard and all the others that were scoring. and then he admitted I shouldn't have let Jimmy go. You spoke to him since? Here and there when I see him. Football is football. It's one of those things. Were you gutted when?

51:36Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I wasn't blessed with winning a league or FA Cup. I've had two FA Cups and lost them both. we were not close enough with Chelsea in the first two years

51:55Gary Neville: we couldn't get the consistency could you have stayed and said no hang on a minute you know you've got one year left you could have gone on a Bosman probably you could have gone free and you could have said no I'm going to stay here and just

52:03Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I could have but that is not really the person that I am if somebody doesn't want me I don't want to stay around

52:11Gary Neville: you know

52:14Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: if they're saying Jim you can go then okay let's get a settlement Middlesbrough good option at the time Middlesbrough because they were trying to make good option good two years we went to UEFA Cup final we had a good team Verduka, me Gerrit Southgate Juko Ekiok Mendieta Rochenbach Stewie Downing you know so we had a really really good team we got seventh in the first year. Second year, we went to the UEFA Cup final, semi-final of the FA Cup. So, yeah, it wasn't Chelsea, but it was very good. So I enjoyed it. So, yeah, and I got it. Yeah, Gary, I was got it that I missed out on the championship.

53:09Roy Keane: How was living in the North East compared to London? It's a good place.

53:13Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: You know what I did. I stayed in London.

53:21Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I lived in Harrogate so I travelled every day to Darlington 40 miles and 40 miles back every day

53:31Gary Neville: Jimmy you mentioned Gareth Southgate and I think he lived around that area very close so you used to travel in together obviously when they come to your coaching career next

53:41Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: so sometimes we used to travel in me, him and Mark Swatza who used to live there as well and majority of the time by ourselves, yeah

53:52Gary Neville: This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing

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54:41Gary Neville: Throw it forward to 2024 and you're the coach with Gareth in a major tournament for England

54:50Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Loved it Can't have a bad word to say really Obviously got it that we didn't get what we really wanted but Spain was better and sometimes that's what you have to say.

55:10Gary Neville: We were there looking over that pitch. Just tell me if you felt something similar. I know that sometimes as a coach, coaches can say, well, no, we didn't feel like that. But Rodri's gone off. Yeah, I know what you're going to say. And you see, obviously, them having to take probably the most important player off in Europe that season, Ballon d 'Or winner. Are you thinking what we're thinking? This is it. Well, I am. but I'm not saying it you're not saying that because you know yourself but is everyone thinking that a little bit I mean you're thinking that so if we're thinking you're a football man

55:42Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: yeah football straight away it goes up in your head yes great yeah happy you know you know how it is yeah you know so you think at that moment you will have more opportunities you know and yes that goes off in my head but ah, the reality shows different. Another player comes in who is now at Arsenal and he picked up and there was no difference whatsoever. Unbelievable.

56:16Gary Neville: I don't have regrets about my football career, but one thing I do think sometimes, particularly when I go to tournaments, is almost like a lifetime of things that you look back upon and think, what if we'd done that? What would we have changed? What's the one thing when you look at that match, What would you do now if you could do anything? If you'd spoken to Gareth or if you thought to yourself?

56:37Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I think... Was there anything? No, but I think if you're going to think that, then you're never going to get over it.

56:43Gary Neville: No, I get that. You sometimes think this one moment's never going to come back in my life. Like you're a United States semi-final.

56:48Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: It is never going to get back. But when you're before the game and you are... This is how I am. and you're looking at the team and you're supporting your manager, there's always things set. And then the decision is made. I was happy with the decision because I have given the manager whatever I needed to give him and then it's up to him. He made a decision and I was happy with his decision because it was a decision for the right reasons. You understand what I'm saying? Talk about some team selection. Yeah, it always comes back to the team selection. You can always, after the game, you can always say, oh, I should have done this, oh, I should have done that.

57:46Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: But then still, you don't know if you're going to win. You know what I'm saying? So I was happy and he was happy and we went for it. Spain was good. Spain was better Spain had a rhythm over the whole tournament that we didn't have and we were looking for You'd never get that momentum in the tournament It felt like the performances were not We wanted it and we were working for it and the boys did brilliantly By the way, I must say I've seen pressure Oh, they were under pressure? I've seen pressure Yeah. Yeah?

58:27Gary Neville: I've never seen something like this. Wow. They were under pressure. I mean, after the first few games, to prepare against Slovenia, you could have gone out, to be fair, Jimmy.

58:35Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah, but we find a way. We find a way. And that is football. That is at the highest level. You find a way. We found a way and you have to appreciate that. But the pressure of the public and stuff. Jesus Christ. Is it like that with the Dutch team? It's different. It's not... You always say that, don't you, about England?

58:57Gary Neville: I remember arriving to that tournament in Berlin, and I actually had lunch with Ian and Roy and said, I asked the question on the first day, why can English teams, with the players that we have and had, why can we, I know you did keep possession in quite a few games, but why can we not, in the games that matter, keep hold of the ball better to keep control? With the likes of Cole Palmer, this has been a 20-year problem, by the way, Jimmy, this is not something that just happened in this tournament, and Gareth knows this better than anybody, but you're from playing with players, to be fair, in Holland, where there's a real technical understanding of the game.

59:29Gary Neville: Why is it that English teams do, I think, in big matches, let's say in Spain or in big games in a tournament, they tend to just Croatia in the 2018 World Cup, teams that can truly keep the ball. Why can't we do that better? What's your understanding of it now you haven't been there?

59:45Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: No, I don't think that it is only the pressure. I think if you look at Spain, if you look at Brazil,

59:55these teams, these countries, in those countries, those teams that they have,

1:00:02Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: they play more or less always the same kind of football.

1:00:05Gary Neville: If you look at the three big games of Gareth, the Italy game at Wembley, which to be fair, the Italians went on to dominate with Jordino. If you look at the Croatia game in 2018 and you look at the game against Spain, those three big games, we looked like we were out on our feet a little bit at the end because the lads would just run themselves into the ground. That's happened in my career many, many times. Yeah. The exact same thing happened where we fell short.

1:00:26Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I can't talk about those two other games. I wasn't there. The only, against Spain, we should have kept the ball better. We should have kept the ball. And sometimes it is just about passing the ball for passing the ball. Just to settle you down. But is it lack of understanding? No, that's not understanding. I think that is just how it is, you know? And that's what we didn't do well. We didn't cap the ball. Was that the pressure? Was that the pressure? We don't know. When I talk about pressure,

1:01:11Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: it's the news, the noise around from outside. You know, that. Are the England players not used to that? Do you mean like Rooney? All these boys have been used to that. Bex had it. What specific noise?

1:01:27Gary Neville: Just talk to us. What was hard during that tournament? What specific noise?

1:01:32Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: There was always, they were always trying to find something negative. Who? Us? Press. Press. And also some of the pundits. Pundits? Pundits. That weren't us. We're on ITV. Some of them. No, no, no.

1:01:47Roy Keane: It was them fellows on it.

1:01:49Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Honestly. Where I sometimes think, come on, guys. Give them a break. You've been there. Get behind these players. Get behind them. You know, give them something that... Was that impacting the players? No, it was impacting me. Wow. It was impacting me.

1:02:13Gary Neville: You thought you were angry or because... Yeah, because certain things doesn't have to be said.

1:02:20Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Why? Why say that? What specifically did you, what are you referring to? What quote? You know that we hear that. You know that people look at that. You know that we will see that, you know? What are you trying to get out of it? Do you not want us to win? What are you trying to get out of that message, you know? It must be strange with England about picking teams. Ford has to play, Parham has to play. The difference of opinions and all that, that must creep into the squad, obviously. The thing is, you have so many big clubs. And when England come together as supporters, everybody supports... You support Liverpool.

1:03:05Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Saka, remember? You have your Liverpool player that you want to see in the team. and if you don't see them, you're not supporting England. And that's wrong, isn't it? They don't come together as much as they should. The players or the country support us. The country.

1:03:28Roy Keane: Newcastle fans won't go out and play and don't.

1:03:30Gary Neville: Let me ask you about two or three specific situations because you talked about this lot. Trent Alexander-Arnold going into midfield. in terms of that Trenton's on a full stop in terms of why is he not playing right back for England the quality of him why is he playing in midfield I mean you talked about it a lot before the game you called it out going in midfield yeah I just thought it was a big ask for a player to go in and play in a big game it's a different position you're on about younger players trying positions yes a bit younger but in a big game for an experienced player to go in and play in midfield it was a big ask for him and he's struggling there we all know that he was taken off did you know it was wrong after game one is that why you didn't put him in there again

1:04:04Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: No, I wouldn't say it was wrong. It didn't materialise how we thought it would materialise. The other thing, England is blessed with good right backs. But they're all different. Trent is a magnificent right back. So is Walker. So is Trips. And they're all in the squad. So it is, what do we need for that game? And because I think we wanted some more quality and Trent to be closer to the forwards, because he can see a pass, he can score a goal, we thought it would work. And with his intelligence, it would work. it didn't come off as we thought it would come off. But I think it's one of those, would I see it being done again?

1:05:13Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah.

1:05:17Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: If I was a manager, would I do that again with Trent? Yeah, because we all know when Trent is in that final third, he finds that brilliant pass for the strikers. So I'm thinking now more of a selfish kind of way for me as a striker. Who would I want? You want those crosses. Yeah, yeah. But he ended up playing too deep instead of going fire up.

1:05:42Gary Neville: Roy mentioned the conundrum of obviously Palmer, Bellingham, Foden and Saka. You've got these four outstanding players. So also Kane up front, and then you've got obviously Bellingham, who looks like a shoe-in to be sort of in that position there. Then you've got these other three amazingly talented players. Was that a constant sort of, how do we get these players in? How do we try and get the best out of them? How do we make sure that... It must have been, because even we're looking at it...

1:06:12Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: It is, it is, it is. And everybody have got their opinion, you know? What's the answer? You tell me.

1:06:25the thing is

1:06:27Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: whatever you do if you don't win it's wrong so and that's the thing and that's what I'm saying with your other questions before the game if you're happy with your decision you take the loss you know So, yeah, you can keep on saying, oh, no, he should have played, he should have played. And we all have got our favourites. But the selection was done for the right reason. But it must be great for your coaching experience to walk with these players in close hands and see how good they are. They were brilliant. And they were easy to work with. Easy, easy, easy, easy, easy. You put something on or the boss put something on or Steve.

1:07:17Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Holland put something on and they do it bang bang bang done

1:07:20Gary Neville: that's what I thought when I was there for four years under Ruyder I thought the players I couldn't say a bad word about the players the efforts there honestly they were absolutely brilliant every single one of them there's one or two maybe but they didn't last in the squad that often but even at times

1:07:34Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: sometimes you want you want a little bit of a friction you want was there a friction? never

1:07:42Gary Neville: that's what you were there for I'm a good guy I'm a good guy.

1:07:47Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: You know, but sometimes you want somebody just... Bit of an edge. You know? But no. And to be fair, they were brilliant.

1:07:55Gary Neville: Who's the big leader in that dressing? Kane was emerging when we were there into someone who actually was a bit of a force. Was he a big force in that dressing? Was he the big leader? Kane, big leader.

1:08:06Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: And everybody does it in a different way. We missed Harry. Harry Maguire. Big leader. in the dressing room. Wow. Big, big, big, big character. Missed him in that way.

1:08:24Roy Keane: Keevan Trippier? Trippier as well.

1:08:27Gary Neville: Trippier as well. Talks about Harry Maguire, though, because he gets a lot of criticism for not... I mean, taking the captain off him at United is a bad moment, really. It's a bad moment. It's a horrible moment for him. And he has, to be fair, before that was emerging as some sort of presence, real presence. I think Oli, when he was there, you're talking about working with him. You say he's a big leader. Just talk about the specifics of that. Top lad, always positive,

1:08:51Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: will always put himself forefront, even when he makes mistakes. He's there, yeah? He doesn't hide, has a voice, everybody respects him. The thing at Man United, we all know what Harry Maguire is. The thing at Man United, if you're going to play open, Yeah, he's going to get in trouble. He's going to get in trouble. But if you protect him in the right ways, he's going to be a proper, proper leader, proper man. He's going to be there. And whatever you say, he's done brilliant for England. He's done brilliant for England. Gary, he was only criticising... We criticise him for his performances more than anything else.

1:09:37No one's gone after him for his personality. No, but the other caps has he taken? No, yeah, well, obviously... Yeah, yeah, no. Listen, obviously, we don't know the ins and outs of that. but I don't think anyone's going to after him for anything badly but getting isolated, getting done 1v1. If you want to get the best out of him,

1:09:51Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: you need to put a defensive midfielder in front of him. You have to put a defensive midfielder in front of him and you need to help him out. And then you get the best out of him. And then he's there. And then he's a proper personality and stuff

1:10:06Gary Neville: and a leader and he battles. Did you feel when the United lads came to England that there was a bit of a relief that they were sometimes coming? Are you smiling? Yeah, but that is obviously always the case, isn't it?

1:10:18Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Because the atmosphere in the England squad was good. It was good. And the boys have been... And people forget that really quickly, what Gareth has done with the England squad.

1:10:33Gary Neville: Was Gareth open to stay in before the tournament? Or did you always feel like he was going to be sort of his last? I really don't know. You don't need to ask him? No, no, no.

1:10:42Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: And I would not ask him now as well. I think he's done that many years. Seems a bit tired at the end, just adding off. I think so. He looked at it, yeah. I think so. I think so. It's worn out. I think not getting the win against, I think that has taken a lot out of him. Yeah. And it was not perfect, the tournament was not perfect. but every time after even though we are winning after the disappointment of the public and coming over he found a positive for the players to hang on and to go again yeah you know and that is how he done that that was very class yeah it's what he done off the field for England and you know everything he had to deal with incredible job you know outside of the plane I couldn't believe of the criticism he used to get even from the public and I think a lot of that was to do with the fact that he wasn't a big manager before in terms of the Middlesbrough job was the only job he had and I actually look at international management differently than club managing that you don't need to be we've had Capello you know these men we've got Tuchel now no doubt Thomas Tuchel is a better manager than probably Gareth Southgate but it doesn't mean he's a better manager for England than Gareth Southgate he's a Champions League winner but I think how he dealt with the press, playing for England, how he brought them players together.

1:12:16And Gary knew, he did know tournament football. Exactly. His personality suited. Look,

1:12:21Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I wish I wish Tuchel all the best and I really hope they do well and and win because I know I know the players and I really want the best for the players. But I do feel that England should have an English coach. I do. I do feel England should have an English coach. Ireland should have an Irish coach. The Dutch should have a Dutch coach. That's what I believe. Okay, maybe you go to the small countries and they need a little bit of help, but the big nations. 100%.

1:13:01Roy Keane: Who would you have said after Gavart Salski then?

1:13:06Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Eddie Howe is the best English player. Yeah, would he take it? No, I don't think so. Don't know about now. It's hard. But I do... You know why I say that? The English culture, yeah, is different than anywhere else. To understand that, Gareth understood the players and understood the dynamics.

1:13:30Gary Neville: What do you say about the England women's team, Jimmy, that have got a Dutch coach that have... Women are different.

1:13:41Gary Neville: we've got a Dutch coach that have been incredibly successful and I think one thing for me I think that when Tuchel does come in and maybe it's wrong but I think if you come in as a foreign coach of a national team I think you almost have to win because if you don't it's almost a case of we've not promoted our own coaching our own coaching system our own A licence and professional pro licence coaches so we've damaged our own game a little bit in some ways if we've not basically won and learnt from that coach that's coming in. Yeah. Which English women have, obviously, with Serena. Look, I don't know as much about the women's game.

1:14:18Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: But yes, you're right, she's been very successful and she's Dutch, isn't she? She's transformational for the women's team. Yeah, but she's not got any English coaches in and around her. there. She's got two Dutch

1:14:33Gary Neville: coaches. My point is though, if she comes in and wins the transformation for the women's game is enormous which is worth that sacrifice. Yeah, it is, but at the same time you want to bring some people into experience what she's been to so many finals. You get a couple of them ex-women who coaches to be in that dressing room to see what it's like. Who's next for us? We're talking about a principle here of an international manager being English or being an international manager. You're talking about Tuchel. You're saying he shouldn't be the manager of England, basically. Well, no, his opinion was he believed.

1:15:04Gary Neville: No, I'm not saying that he shouldn't be. Don't put words in. No, he said that an English coach should manage England, which means Tuchel shouldn't be the manager of England.

1:15:10Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: It should be an English coach because of the culture, because of the understanding, and big nations should have their own, the same nationality as a coach. That's my opinion. That's my opinion. I'm not saying... No, Jimmy, I agree with you.

1:15:27Gary Neville: Just how I feel. I agree with you. I worked under Sven, I worked under Capello a couple of times. So I agree with you. Because English coaches don't get a job in the Premier League very easily at the top level, it's hard enough as it is.

1:15:40Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I'm not saying it because of that. I am. But that is not my reasoning.

1:15:45Gary Neville: What's your reasoning then?

1:15:47Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: The understanding of the players. The understanding of... When Tuchel goes to Chelsea, there are so many different cultures there. so many different nationalities nationalities and blah blah blah there's only one nationality in England yeah and for me I feel that an English coach who doesn't have long yeah who only gonna have them for a week or ten days or two weeks is gonna understand them quicker than a foreign coach that's not to do with coaching you're saying that's more to do with the the environment the environment Is it all I still have foreign coaches part of the staff? Yeah, well... Yes?

1:16:38Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I'm British now. I've lived longer here than in the Netherlands.

1:16:44Gary Neville: When I think of you as a coach, to be fair, when Jimmy Floyd Hasselbeck becomes the manager of Burton Albion, you always think, that's a strange one. But then I think of the job that you did there and obviously you went back again. Just talk about Burton and the relationship there, how you enjoyed managing at obviously League 2, League 1 level.

1:17:03Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Tough, really tough because the resources were limited. But I had to learn my way. Brilliant club, being run by a brilliant man who gave me the keys and I could really fill in how I wanted to fill it in, obviously with his blessing. But, yeah, I knew what the budget was. I could fill the budget in with whatever player I wanted.

1:17:39Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: And, yeah, it was great, especially when you're winning, you know. And at the end, and that time is always going to come when you're working with a smaller team and a smaller budget, that you're going to have a spell that you're not going to be that successful.

1:17:55Gary Neville: Because the budget for Burton in League One is well below. Off. It's massive. It is probably the lowest budget in League One.

1:18:01Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: The thing is, when you're working for a club like that, it's about relationships. It's about people wanting to do you a favour. People want to loan you a player or two and then try to make a team out of it. And you're never going to be able to play the football that you really want to play. because the players have got limits, you know, but you have to find the way forward that they are happy with and it's also satisfactory to me to see, OK, that's the kind of football that is going to get us forward.

1:18:47Gary Neville: You've had a great grounding, you've had success. Why have you not been offered that top job? Have you been for interviews for those top jobs?

1:18:53Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: It's very difficult to get interviews, you know. Very difficult. I have now said to myself, I've done the League 2, League 1. I've been with England. I don't want to take a job lower than the top of League 1. I want something in the championship or to be a coach for somebody in the Premier League.

1:19:24Gary Neville: What happens if that phone call comes in the middle of Strictly Come Dancing? I won't be able to take it, will I? Can you wait?

1:19:35No,

1:19:39Jim, seriously, if you got that call and it was like a Premier League team, you'd have to back out, man, you'd have to say, listen, I'm dancing shoes are being parked up. You could do both.

1:19:49Roy Keane: Play on a Saturday, go and dance on a Saturday night. You can't do both. I can't do that to you.

1:19:53Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: But look, listen, I would love to coach in the Premier League. Honestly, I would love to coach for somebody in the Premier League. I think I could help. So you want to get back in, Jimmy?

1:20:04Gary Neville: You're really intent? Coaching, preferably. So not as a manager? Not as a head coach? Preferably not.

1:20:09Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Or the job has to be really, really good.

1:20:13Roy Keane: Money.

1:20:15Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Yeah, it's... No, but I would love to coach and be amongst the players and, yeah, help somebody, you know. And I think I can.

1:20:29Gary Neville: We think you can as well, Jimmy. Yes. That's an amazing episode, Jimmy. Thank you. Jimmy, great to speak to you.

1:20:37Roy Keane: Thank you so much.

1:20:38Gary Neville: Are you going to give us a little dance to finish a little? Give us a taste of Jimmy. Come on, Jimmy.

1:20:43Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: Otherwise you guys don't look. You only dance on the show. Jimmy, well done. You only dance on the show. Well done. Brilliant. Taking a photo. Jimmy, we'll take a photo. Nice one. Yes. Adam, can you take a picture, please?

1:20:59Gary Neville: Not with my camera. We'll send it to you, Jimmy, don't worry.

1:21:03Roy Keane: We'll send it to you, Jimmy. Jimmy, you see it. We'll send you the proper camera.

1:21:08Gary Neville: Not a proper photographer.

1:21:09Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink: I look at you differently now. I look at you much, much better now.

1:21:18thank you

1:21:18Gary Neville: just one second Howard took in a minute you just said he's not a good photographer which I know was a joke show us Howard's photograph by the way of the Salford goal against Newport last week let's have a look at it oh what a picture oh great oh he's caught a beauty oh that's a great picture it's a goal as well it's caught in the middle how are you doing by the way we're going to be okay Jimmy you don't want to get promoted you know what it looks like we're going to be okay that's really good I hope so. I never say we're going to get promoted, but that's the ambition. You'd get a prize for that, won't you?

1:21:52You'd get a prize.

1:21:53Roy Keane: Wasn't there a question of what's the best football picture you've ever seen? The best football picture. Football photo.

1:21:59Gary Neville: It's a brilliant picture, Howard.

1:22:00Roy Keane: I didn't say that.

1:22:00Gary Neville: Right. What's the best picture we've ever seen? What's the best football photograph we've ever seen? Football photograph. All sports. All football. Maradona at the handball against, you know, it's iconic, isn't it? I love the Maradona one where he's going one way and the whole, is it Maradona? And the whole team are going the other. Belgium, yeah. Belgium. Thumbaa? Yeah, that's a good picture.

1:22:24Roy Keane: Iconic photographs. I'd probably go, you know Muhammad Ali underwater boxing? Boom. It's a good picture. What's that one? Muhammad Ali standing over someone. He's in a swimming pool. Yeah, but what about he's standing over someone? He's looking at... No, that's what he knocked someone out. I'm talking about when he's training and he's in a swimming pool. It's a powerful picture. Have they got a picture? of that unfortunately no there's got to be some photos of you there's no kicking off i bet well

1:22:51Gary Neville: that's another episode finish well done everybody well done

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