John Barnes: Liverpool Legend, Battles with United & Tackling Racism | Stick to Football EP 112

0:00Just before we get started, a quick thanks to our partners and clothing. We hope you enjoy the show. Hey look That's lovely that righty It's not bad is it Everybody came to greet me Where were you? I went to the toilet Up the self and got caught You took a You don't got caught It took you a long time Keep me away from those sweets The men inroads Can I tell stories about Ian Wright From the old days? No I looked after him in the World Cup 90 I tried to you know Educate him I tried chopping down To Champs -Élysées Oh Honestly nearly got a span from him every store. No, I didn't. I just didn't want some of the stuff.

0:37It was rubbish. Yeah, but there's ways of doing it. When you're in a nice place, you kind of like go, oh, well, that's not too right to us. I don't like it. No. That was before I refined myself. Before we moved to West London. Absolutely. How old would you have been then, right? 31. 32. Are you the same age then, right? No, he's older than him. Yes, both don't look. He's four days older than me. Four days. Wow. You look fantastic. It's in the jeans, baby. What's the secret, guys? Do you know the first time I ever met John? I was in the first squad in 95, one of the first ever England squads, and I went down to Burnham Beaches into the spa area to walk to the jacuzzi, and I walked through the door, and he was in there on his own, just relaxing in the jacuzzi.

1:28Do you want to know one of them things where you think, oh, no? Because it's like John Barnes is up here, and I'm 20. and I thought, oh, he's seen me. And I was, like, so nervous. He's seen me. He's seen me. I'm going to have to go through and sit in the jacuzzi because he knew I was going towards the jacuzzi. Were you clothed? Eh? Did you have cloth on? He had shorts on. Oh.

1:49Jill's got a vision of me and John. I took him off after a few minutes. Have a tear of coffee. Are they looking out yet? No, they're not, mate. They haven't looked after me at all, but I know you will. A tear of coffee. And, John, you were unbelievable to me. For half an hour you talked to me, I thought, Do you know something? This is a man who literally scarred and ruined. But please don't tell them what I spoke to you about. Here or coffee? Whatever it is, just me. What do you prefer? I'll have a tea then. So that was one of your first times in the... First time I'd ever met him. What game was that?

2:21It would have been the early 95. Were you in... I don't think you were in Le Tournoir. Were you in Le Tournoir? No, no, no. I didn't make Le Tournoir. The one before Le Tournoir. I was in Le Tournoir. No, it was one after that. No, Le Tournoir. Unbroke up, sorry. 95. Wasn't the Unbroke up, was it? Were you in the squad for the Cameroon game? Cameroon. It was Cameroon or we played like a, I think, Columbia. Not Columbia. I think it was Columbia. Columbia as well, yeah. So there's a couple of squads that I was in with John at that time. Isn't that the worst thing when you go to international football and you have to meet everyone?

2:49Oh, it's so sick. Hi, Jimmy. It's so intimidating as well, isn't it? It's like New Year's Eve. Oh, honestly. All right, all the best. It was like Christmas, Roy. Yeah, we've got to be nice to everybody. Roy, mine. Torture. You like meeting John Barnes. You're meeting Gaza. You're meeting something called Stuart Pearce. These are people like... When I was there, I was frightened of them, man. I was really scared. Brian Robson was the one that made me feel... The first squad, I think, I went into... It was the Hungry. Peter Beardsley was there. Peter was cool as well. But, like, Steve McMahon was just like, bro, man, just intimidated me, man.

3:21Jeez. But were they... Yeah, and then it was Brian Robson just kept saying to me, don't worry. Would it help you? Like, yeah. Brian Robson just said, don't worry, don't worry. Just keep going. No, but back then, you know what it was like back then. and we're going through a situation now where you're talking about character building and bullying. You do that a lot now, don't you? Back then with where you were brought up. You know what I mean? Yes. It was a hard... It was tough, man. When you were young coming in, it must have been difficult for you as well. Yeah, yeah. As I said, when Roy came over, I remember the first game he played against us and I remember playing in the game and Roy, you could see he had something about him but never knew him.

3:50And I said to Des Walker, who's that? He goes, I don't know. He said, did he play a pre-season game against Forrest? And then Cloughy just brought him over. Was it that week he came over? I know, I'd been there that pre-season. I hadn't been with the first team in the pre-season. You hadn't been with the first team, yeah. And then Roy said he'd never... So Dez and the lads didn't know me, to be fair. They didn't. I mean, they're playing with him, didn't know he was. He said, I don't know, his name's Roy. Jesus, amazing, huh? Stick to Football is brought to you by arm clothing. He's grabbed Brown Lord by his throat and he's gone, never mind him, get McMahon.

4:24If all it took for racism to wear its ugly head again was three black players and it's a penalty, that meant that all we're doing is teaching people how to keep quiet are we concentrating too much on technique I think we're concentrating too much on tricks my bit was stand out wide go down the line put a cross in he goes go on give us a wrap give us a wrap and I've gone oh my wrapping days are over and Andre's breath as he took a CP went his football day was over

4:51talk to us about your upbringing then John you just mentioned it then straight in well I had a different upbringing to most people I mean, I grew up in Jamaica. And my dad was a colon in the army. I was head of the army. Oh, wow. Remember we went to the army base when we came over from Jamaica. So my dad went to Sandhurst in England in the 50s. He was at Armhurst with Andrew Parker Bowles. Yeah, yeah. He was at my mom and dad's wedding. He knows him well. So he then came back to Jamaica, colon in the army. He then got sent back to England as military attache. Because what happened, and I can tell the story now, what happened was my dad's from Trinidad.

5:31But if you wanted to become, you wanted to be an army officer in any of the Caribbean islands, Barbados, Trinidad, anywhere, you had to go to Jamaica. That's the biggest one. That's where the army was. So he was from Trinidad. He then came to Jamaica to join the British West Indies Regiment, became a lieutenant, went to Sandhurst, came back captain, colonel. Then Jamaica became a socialist country in the 70s, which meant that they were going to get friendly with Russia and Cuba. My dad's head of the army. So the ex-Prime Minister, Michael Manley, you know about Michael Manley, came to my dad and he said, where do your allegiances lie?

6:02Meaning, we're now going to become a socialist country. And what normally happens under those circumstances is that they organize a coup. America would organize a coup to take over the country as they do all over. So he wanted to know that my dad was with him. But my dad said, listen, I'm an army officer, so I don't have allegiances. My duty is with the country. But he didn't want to hear that. So he sent my dad to England. I was 12 years old as military attaché to get him out of the country. And then the lieutenant colonel then went above my dad and became the head of the army because he wanted my dad out of the way in case he's head of the army and we become communist.

6:33And so, therefore, that's the only reason I came to England. So I came to England at 13, sorry, 12. I am now going to be here for four years. So we lived in London. 17, I'm now offered a football scholarship to Howard University. So I'm going to go to Howard. And three months before, my dad had already gone back. I'm now playing for Sudbury Court, not far from Kensal Rise in Wembley, and a taxi driver was driving by and he said, I'll just watch this game. Then he played for Sudbury Court, men's team. I'm now 17. And he knew a scout at Watford. So he said to the scout, come and watch me play. I didn't know that.

7:05I'm just playing. And then my dad got a phone call from Bertie Mee. I don't know if you remember Bertie Mee. Yes, yeah, yeah. He was at Watford at the time to say, would John like, we know he's going to go back to, well, he's going to America to go to Howard. But the four months before he goes, he doesn't want to come and train with Watford on the 16th, on the 17th. So I went to train at Watford, and then three months later, when we were going back, they said, do you want to stay? And sign a contract. And I signed a contract. So if that taxi driver didn't stop, I would never have been spotted.

7:29So look at Wrighty. Wrighty played for Pen & B until he was like, you know. 22, yeah. So back then you had to be lucky to be spotted. I still would have had the talent. I would have had the potential, but I was never spotted. And I would have gone to America, become whatever. And there were so many players back then. You must have played with lots of players who you thought were good players, and they never made it because they were never spotted. I mean, now you go to academies, everybody's going to make it. Whereas back then, so I was lucky. I would have been an annoying American, wouldn't I?

7:55So, Banzi, was you ready to... So you went to the trial, you just think, it doesn't matter because I'm going to have... It wasn't really a trial. We just went training with the youth team up at the YMCA where they're on the 16s, on the 17s used to train. And I did that for a few months. And I had one reserve game, not one youth team game against Fulham. Paul Parker was played, centre-back. Dean Coney was up front. So I had one game against Fulham. and it's so interesting how things work out. I had one youth team game against Fulham, one reserve game and then first game of the season. Now, maybe you're too young to remember but what used to happen in the old reserve league, combination, whatever it was called.

8:31When the first team played, which I love, the first team played away on a Saturday at three o 'clock, the reserves played at home on Saturday at three o 'clock. So we would play a proper team at three o 'clock on a Saturday. On the pitch. On the pitch. So with first game of the season, Watford were playing all them away. the reserves are playing now Watford were playing over at Newcastle the reserves were playing at home against Swindon played against Swindon in the reserves first reserve game I've only been in the club for two months Luther got sent off at Newcastle and what happened when he got sent off back then second game of the season Luther's banned yeah so Graham Taylor for the second game of the season I'm 17 puts me on the bench against Oldham so I'm on the bench against Oldham second game of the season my second game ever second game I come on for 10 minutes against Oldham I can't even remember I must have done okay third game of the season I went to Chelsea Luther comes back he doesn't put me in the reserves he leaves somebody else out don't know who it is but that showbiz and he puts me in the team straight away on the left side on the left side first third game ever and I've just been in there everything but Graham Taylor was always one for giving youngsters a chance and you know because Watford was never about the team it was also about the group and the way your players because you know that team we finished second in the league to Liverpool that year second in the league and I would say 75 % of those players would have been in the fourth division Luther played in the fourth division Steve Sims all of them brought them up from the fourth to the top division finished second in the league when Liverpool won the league and 75 % of them played in the fourth division because it doesn't say how good you are it's about your attitude How many games did you play that season?

10:03From there I played every game I wasn't out of the team after that Chelsea game third game of the season I played every single game Can you remember feeling like a difference in the standards when you went and played that first team game? Well, the interesting thing is because when I came to England, I went to a rugby school, I only played rugby at school. I played for a club, but I only played rugby at school. But with my dad being an army officer, discipline was the most important thing for him. Discipline. So when I was young, growing up in Jamaica, I just used to have to go... My sister swam for Jamaica.

10:31She used to swim competitively. And when I was nine and ten, we used to go swimming in Miami. For Marlins in Jamaica, Miami's an hour away, we used to go swimming in Miami. And what used to happen, you have to train every day in the stadium where we played, every day we had to go to training, swimming training. But some days I'd stop off and play football. And my dad said, if you're not going to go to swimming training every day, give up swimming. But my dad said, if you're going to do anything, authenticity, discipline, determination. So a young boy in London, when my friends were all going out, at 15, I had to go running around Hyde Park.

10:59He used to run up, and I hated it. I'm saying, why do I have to do this? Not preparing to be a professional footballer. But he says, if you're going to do anything, you do it with authenticity. So by the time I went to Watford, because I was so disciplined, Graham Taylor was really tough. it's really hard and I wasn't I wasn't being disciplined to be a professional footballer going back to Jamaica but my dad said this is what you've got to do just in life so when I went to Watford as a 17 year old he had players who were apprentices who'd bring up through the system and I wasn't I was able to be good at the running and everything and the fitness we used to do gym work and stuff so I think that forget about how good you are your talent yes we've all got talent but it's about your attitude and your commitment and that's what my dad stressed for me always so it wasn't I didn't find it hard all of a sudden 17 being in a professional environment and, you know, because I'm new to it, I've been through an apprentice system, how do I...

11:46Did that help you, though, John, that you didn't go through that system? I don't know. You were a bit more free when you played? Well, no, but it wasn't really because why I say discipline is more important is because when I went to Watford, which is a very disciplined club, the way we played at Watford was it was very structured, very, very structured. So to give you an example, my first responsibility, I'm a winger, I'm taking people, I'm putting crosses in, my first responsibility was do not let the fullback go without you chasing him. So forget about the way people see me. At Watford, I was very disciplined.

12:11Yeah, but that's out of possession. But when you had possession, surely you heard a bit more about you. Were you thinking, I can do my bit? Yeah, my bit was stand out wide, go down the line, put a cross in. Never mind. So it's really interesting because, you know, I never thought I was a Liverpool player because the way Liverpool play, we don't play with just wing a stick to your line and stuff like that. But what Graham Taylor did was, and most teams did it then, they looked at you and Liverpool, I didn't think I was a Liverpool type player. Look at the way Watford play, long balls. Liverpool bring it out from the back.

12:36How am I going to play for Liverpool? but they looked at you and they say you have what it takes to fit into our team without us telling you because they don't coach you at Liverpool as Carol will tell you well you got in there started to do a bit of coaching didn't they but before there's no coaching you just have to work it out yourself so I didn't think I was a Liverpool type player but fortunately I had six years at Watford which meant that they had looked at me for six years you were probably quite unusual for them to get you straight away Robbo had six years at West Brom Peter Bearty six years at Newcastle they looked at you to say can you play with the level of consistency over a period of time before you come to a big club.

13:09Rather than now, one good season, you cost 50 million pounds, you see the inconsistency. Exactly. So when I came to Liverpool, I played up front a couple of times against Liverpool. And of course, you would know this with Marcus Rashford and everybody. We're wide players, but everyone wants to be a centre-forward. And they can't be like it until they start getting kicked. Then all of a sudden, they don't want to do that. But I played up front against Liverpool. And when I signed, Rushy's gone. I'm come to replace Rushy. It was going to be me and Aldo. And one week later, they signed Peter Bertsley.

13:35And I'm thinking, well, where am I going to play? So I said, because you're going to play on the left. I said, but you don't play with Wieners. He'll go, you'll work it out. I need to work it out. So then I started coming in off the line, which I've never, ever done on Watford, because they use your initiative. You could have said they're throwing you under the bus, couldn't you? You couldn't have said that. You could have thought it, as we all thought it. In fact, when I was leaving, interestingly, I don't think I'd have gone to that. When I was leaving, I was, Simit Samoa, I'm 34. You know, time's coming up.

14:00And it's like, well, they're making a bit of a... In fact, that's what happened because, of course, I was in midfield. I had to change the way I played rugby with Cleese Tendon. Then all of a sudden, because I'm not like a... They said, we need Incy. So they said, that's what we need. We need to come back. And, you know, the reason why we're not winning and Manny Knight are taking on because we don't have that commanding figure in midfield. So they kind of, like, half I feel threw me under the bus, but I never said anything. I sort of got a goal, John. You're talking about... We talk about football now and data's taking over football in terms of buying players, sports science and all that.

14:28But when you're talking about you had that sort of six years at Wofford, so Liverpool are aware you're obviously but I saw a goal on social media a few months ago that you scored against Liverpool I think it was at Vicarage Road that was the one yeah I played up front then yeah so do you think sort of when Bayern plays in sort of that day and age there's a lot of how you actually played against that team as well yeah does help doesn't it well yeah because of course but I think more importantly they would have forget about me scoring that goal then but if they watch Watford every week and they see the way we're playing how is John Barnes going to fit in Liverpool All we do is hit long balls, you know, crossover runs into the channel.

15:04Barnes gets the ball, he crosses it. Although I scored against Liverpool. But they looked at me, not just against Liverpool, to say, because sometimes I played up front, sometimes I played in midfield. I remember we're playing, who was it against? And he actually scored. Good attacking midfield player. He said to me, Graham Taylor said to me, I'm going to play in midfield. This game, pick the team. Pick the team. Who was it against? And he goes, you're playing in midfield. And I want you to man mark. And of course, he scored a goal with 1-0. That's the only kick he got. but he was a great attacking midfield player.

15:32And Graham Taylor would say that sometimes. He'd go and play in midfield as a defensive midfield player. I'm a left winger. Then he'd say, go and play here. Because what he said, he'd have to understand the function of every position. Which means that when I went to play in midfield on that day, when I had to man mark... He'll come back to me in a second. Who did he play for? You don't know the club? Yeah, I'm going to come back to him in a second. You know, I'm getting a bit old now. But I just remember it vividly. And so when I go and play... For example, if I want to play midfield, I'd have to play midfield.

15:59not like John Barnes, the winger skilful coming into midfield to do what I do. I'd have to play it like Roy Keane. Or I'd have to play like a defensive midfield player. So therefore, he made everyone understand their role and he made sure everybody understand other people's roles. So if I went to play right back, I'd have to play like Gary Neville, not like John Barnes, attacking player, going to play right back. So when I had to man... It'll come back to me in a second. But I just could not believe he never got a kick. He scored the winner. He had one kick, but that was it. But it was... So Graham Taylor used to do things like that.

16:25So I understood how to play in different positions. You said before about Liverpool buying you and that he didn't play with wingers. I've heard you say before that, at Watford, you clash yourself as a left winger, but at Liverpool, you clash yourself as a left midfield player. Yeah, because of course for me, like Mo Salah's not a winger as far as I'm concerned. As a left winger, my job, you have Roth Jenkins and Luther Blissett up front, you get the ball, you go down the line, you put crosses in. Yeah, you can come in now and again, so that's a winger. A left-sided midfield player is one who can come in off the line, he can play, that's a four, not one of three, one of four.

16:57Yeah? You're coming off the line, you look like Ray Kennedy, Sammy Lee. They were wide players. So Sammy Lee played wide of four when he was not a winger. Now, if it was Stevie Highway, he would be a winger. So as much as he said, yes, I was a left winger at Watford because my role was to get crosses in. For Liverpool, as much as I played on the left, yes, and you get crosses in now and again, I would also come in field to play one-twos and to do different things. So I was a winger for Watford. Yes, I was a winger for Liverpool, if you like to say that. It's a bit like saying Mo Salah's a winger, but he's not, or Sadio Mane.

17:26So you have to understand the difference between those. Was that adapting roles going to a bigger club? You're thinking, I've got to have more to my game than just, do you think Liverpool would also look at you and go, listen, we need a bit more than what you've done because obviously different expectations, no doubt. Yeah, but they didn't tell me. That's the thing. They didn't tell you. But we heard Graeme. It doesn't work out that way. But they'd also look at you, go, you figure it out as well what you have to bring to the game. Yeah, because I'm looking at the team and all of a sudden I'm looking at this team and I'm saying, well, it's not really required because as I said, most wingers, if you like, Theo Walcott did the same.

17:50You want to come in field and get involved, don't you? Whereas if the manager says, stays out wide, he stays out wide, which is what Graham Taylor did. Now for Watford, because of course you want to come in and get the ball off the centre-back, for example, you know, in the pockets, in the hole, in between the midfield players, in between the lines. At Watford, I would never do that. But at Liverpool, Alan Hansen's bringing the ball out. Alan Hansen can't get the ball further than 20 yards. So I would always have to do that with a full-back overlapping. Now that would never happen at Watford. So therefore, I had the experience, and that's the thing.

18:17We're not played up front where you can actually come short to do different things. You kind of like get that? But at Liverpool, it was so interesting because they never coached us once and they said from the first couple of weeks in training when we were playing practice matches, I was doing it, Peter Beard said we're doing it and he's thinking they never told you. I mean, running around would say half time he'd come and he'd go, right, what's gone wrong? He goes, I know, but I'm not telling you and you walk out the room. Work it out yourself. God, that sounds like an easy job. Is it harder for a left footer to come in the park?

18:43Obviously, we see a left footer on the right side coming in is it harder for left foot to come in off the left and try and link up play left foot is coming in off the left coming off the left I mean yeah so left footed coming off the right or coming to score to shoot with their left foot seems a little bit easier it seems that way if you want to score a goal you were saying you were cutting in but were you finding that hard as well no no no I'm not coming in to get the ball to one score I'm coming in to get the ball to play either one twos or to play for someone else to score if I was playing on the right and coming in I'm coming in on my left foot and I'm going to shoot so I've seen you come inside on your right foot.

19:15I was in the Gladys seat when you put one in with your right foot on the 4-4. Yeah, but what I'm saying is that if you look at, if it was on the left now, that's what I'm saying, look at Mo, and look at Sadio Mane on the right, and look at Jack Grealish on the right. So you'd have been a right winger in this day and age. In this day and age, 100, all left foot, I don't, they don't have many. And would you prefer that, you think? Do you think that would have added to your game a little bit? Well, you know, if you're scoring all the goals, you're going to get the big contracts, aren't you? But the problem I had then, I didn't have then because then you had orthodox centre-forwards.

19:40So therefore, they're not going to score. Because if I'm coming in to do that, you don't have a centre-forwards. That's why for Mo and Sadio Mane, Bobby Firmino was ideal because he used to create that space for them. Whereas if you're playing with Rushy and Aldo and Robbie Fowler, you want to score. You don't want anybody to do that because how are you going to score goals? So playing now, obviously playing on the ride coming in, but now apart from Haaland, you don't get many orthodox centre-forwards who really mind that kind of situation. Rushy, you would have hated that, I would have thought.

20:09Any set of forward would hate that. Go ahead, going to score goals. Who's the biggest influence in that? Graham Taylor, massive influence on you. Yeah, one of my dad first, and Graham Taylor was very disciplined as well, so very similar. Because back then, I don't know, back then, as a young boy, you would know. Was your dad strict with you? Yeah, I mean, he's an army officer, so yeah, very strict. Very strict. More from a discipline, more from a point of view of, from a sporting perspective. You know, I played rugby for London schools. Any sport that I did, he insisted, not just your talent, but your application, your responsibility.

20:39I'll tell you. And, you know, you're just doing it naturally, so you don't really think about the conditioning you're on. You don't think about your dad telling you this, just doing it because you do it. Stowe Boys Club, Paddington, Harrow Road, not far from you. Coming from Jamaica at 12, I played for the 16s in Jamaica at 12. I'm the same player, an attacking player, score goals. I come to England, go to Stowe Boys Club on the Harrow Road, just by Royal Oak. They had been together for about a year. winning 6-0 in the Regents Park Sunday League, I've now joined this team. When you play for a good team who score lots of goals, nobody wants to be a defender.

21:11So my dad said to me, your first responsibility is to the team, not to yourself. So you're going to play as a centre-back for this team. So from the age of 12 till 16, when I went to Sudbury Court for six months before I went to Watford, the only position I played was centre-back. I was never a centre-back, but because the team were winning 10-0 and nobody to play there, he said, that's where you're going to play. So for four years, I played only as a centre-back, never played anywhere else. When I went to the men's team at 16, you weren't playing as a centre-back in the men's league in those days.

21:37So that's when I went to play on the left wing. Three months later, I played for Watford. But the responsibility was for the team, so I played as a centre-back for four years. Very strategic for me then, eh? Well, it's more to do with the fact that whatever the responsibility for the team is, that's what you do. You mentioned Mo Salah. In my childhood, you knew growing up and playing for Liverpool, you were the absolute equivalent. You were the standout player in the league, in the best team. You were absolutely up here. can you see where he's coming from from a point of view of thank you thank you, excellent, I'll keep that I won't, what the camera's off my head I'm a scout, so you give that back to me we were talking last week about this amazing player hating being left out and having sort of like an understanding of why they get pissed off when left out Can you see where he's coming from by what he did?

22:31Or are you in the... Oh, no, no, no, no. Everybody is the same. But your response is different. So we all felt that. Everybody felt that. But let me tell you about the essence of Liverpool. I'm sure Manny Knight would have been the same, but can only speak for Liverpool and Watford, is that it's never been about Dalgish and Rush. It's always been about the team. So there's no way Kenny or Rush, as two superstars in the team, or Kevin Keegan and John Tashik before, could have felt more important than any of the other players. So Rush and Kenny, we can't help the way fans see us. fans are always going to put the superstar players above their teammates.

22:59But what we can help is the way we see ourselves in relation to our teammates. And there's no way Kenny and Roshi could have felt more important than Sammy Lee and Jimmy Case and acted that way. So therefore, I understand they may have been frustrated, but they could never have come out and said it. Now, I'm not saying that if they were playing now, if I were playing now, I wouldn't do it because this is a feature of modern football. You see, exactly see players doing things. And I can't then retrospectively look back or me bring myself forward to say, if I was playing now, I wouldn't be that way because I've got my 61-year-old head in.

23:26If I was playing now at 25 years old, I'd probably be just like them. Because this is the environment they're brought up in, to feel. And this is the environment fans put individual players above their teammates. We've seen it at all clubs, at Man United. Fans would say, we love him, but we don't love him. Now that's fine for the fans, but the players can't see themselves that way. Unfortunately, I think modern players sometimes do feel more important in their team. Somebody's players, lads, I think are like social media. They're like brands, aren't they? They're like brands, so if they're left out of a team, it's like they're damaging their brand.

23:55desperate. The teams behind them. They've got their own company, their own team, their entourage. I think we've created this. Once the Premier League started, we created this separation of superstars and the rest of them aren't superstars type of thing. So, this is modern. Look at the kids now on social media and you can look at influencers who we will say, what's an influencer? Because you have followers and you do nothing? But this is modern life. You've got to get used to it. And they hear your fans' opinions so much more, don't they? Whereas back in the day, it might be a few chants or a couple of questions after a game, but now it's everywhere this episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing John can I ask you about you just mentioned before and obviously I've got experience of it not as much as you but the sort of like the Liverpool way of doing things and when I think of my own career the one thing I'm really thankful of is that I had it for a year you know of almost Ronnie Moran Roy Evans this thing that had been going on for sort of 30, 40 years I sort of got a little glimpse of it and you said like and Graeme Sunez says it all doesn't he you know you've cost this much money how are we going to tell you how to just explain a little bit about what that was like because was he afraid like I might not get it if I don't get it what's going to happen they paid 900 ,000 well just for you 900 ,000 was a lot of money back then a shit load of money then we kicked off 900 ,000 is all and Peter Bearty was the highest transfer of 1.7 million however yes there is the nerves obviously because I'm the first black player as well apart from Harry Gale that comes in but however I'd had six years of performing.

25:26Now, had I come after one year, that's why I look at Theo Walcott as an example and say, I feel sorry for Theo because Theo at 16 got in the Arsenal team. Then he goes to the World Cup. So imagine the pressure on Theo Walcott. Whereas I had six years. I mean, the goal I scored against Brazil had another three years at Watford. More than that. In fact, I had another four years. So that happens now. You're going to get a transfer. World Cup 86, I had another two, three years. So I was able to handle that pressure because I remember Graham Taylor saying to me, listen, don't worry about what people say, how good you are or how bad you are.

25:55Yeah? You just listen to us and you do what you do and have the humility to understand that how fickle this world is where people are going to say you're great and they're going to say you're not great and what are you? So, I would hate to have gone to Liverpool at 17 years old because at 17 you go in his seat. If you go to Man United you know with Paul McGraw and all this culture that's what you would have seen that as a youngster and if it wasn't for Fergie who would have kept you you know, make sure because you'd have been out with Robbo and out with you know Paul McGraw and Norman White it's a big drinking culture as it was in all clubs.

26:24Apart from Watford, it wasn't like that. And it's hard for a 17-year-old with that peer pressure. As I said, talking about... Would you be itching to go after three years at Watford? We're not saying go... But after three years, you're not thinking, I want a slice of the big... No? No, because back then, as well, you see, I'm at Watford and as far as I was concerned, we finished second in the league, got to the quarter time in the UEFA Cup. Watford are going to win the league. We're going to be great. I'm going to be here forever. I love it. Graham Taylor is wise enough to understand. this is just a period of time in Watson's history where this is going to happen then when time comes he said to me you are going I never wanted to go he said to me Luther went to AC Milan Nigel Kahn went to Aston Villa so the team was kind of breaking up and he said to me you're going to go to Liverpool I never asked to go and if he had said to me Liverpool have come in but you're staying I would have stayed When did he come to you and say that at the end of the season?

27:09He came to me in the January because January Liverpool wanted to sign me because Everton were winning the league and he said to me Liverpool have come in for you you're going to Liverpool but not in January this is not a time to go and I still believe that today January is not a time to go fitting with new players and you know so therefore you're going to go he said to me you're going to go at the end of the season and I knew I was going to go Surely Watford wanted to keep you though no? Because you were obviously But that's what I find so strange because you would think that the manager will then go no we want you to stay because you're the best player but he felt he had a responsibility to his players Watford is a big club comes in for you so that's where he felt he had a relationship Luther went to AC Milan the best players That was a lot of money And it was a lot of money.

27:47But, I mean, Elton had loads of money, so it didn't really matter. It's nothing to do with the money, but he felt a responsibility to help our career. Do you know what I mean? John, you're talking about sort of Everton winning the league, and this is sort of my childhood. I knew you'd have to mention that. I know. But I remember, I was at your first derby game, I think it was a League Cup game, and Gary Stevens got the winner at the Kop. It's a deflection of Gary Gillespie. But obviously you had the racism situation then. Everton didn't have a black player. You're talking about being, not Liverpool's first black player, obviously Howard Gerber.

28:21Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, a prominent player. Tell me the story about that. Not that goal, but I remember a friend of mine, Charlie, you know my mate, Charlie. Yeah, yeah. He used to go to a game every now and again, and he goes, so what had happened was, Liverpool came in for me in January. The way that it should be even now is that the first time a player goes to a club, the first time we know a player going to a club is when he signs. That's the first time you should know. This speculation, is he going to go, is he going to go, it's not good for the club. So when Liverpool came in for me in January, Graham Taylor said to them, he's coming, but he's going to come at the end of the season.

28:48Liverpool knew I was coming. I knew I was going. Not a word in the press. So we knew it was happening. But because Jan said it in the press, all the fans knew was that Liverpool have come in and he's not come. So he snobbed us. So from the January till I signed, there was a little bit of a bad attitude towards me because they felt that he snobbed Liverpool. Who does he think he is? Now my mate used to go to the games all the way from January to the end of the season. And with these two old boys, these two old white guys sat in front of him. and from say the March when it didn't come they were like oh we didn't want John Barnes to come anyway because you know he wears tights he's from Jamaica doesn't like the cold giving all that right slaughtering me which is fine every week I've now signed for Liverpool right and the first game fortunately for me the first two games were away because there was a hole in the cup so we played away at Arsenal we won 2-1 and we played away played well so the first home game was against Oxford and as I said when I signed for Liverpool in training it was if we played together all our lives pre-season we were winning games New team, Russian Dalglish, have gone, Peart, Beardsley, Aldo.

29:44We're playing in a new way. You know, Liverpool were like a machine, but here's a new way and we're playing really well. Third game, home to Oxford. Free kick, 14 minutes, bent it into the top corner. Remember those two guys who used to abuse me? He said, the first one looked at his mate, shot us behind him and he went, he's not as black as I thought.

30:02Why do you want to talk about, listen, racism in life, in society, that's really what we have to talk about. If you talk about racism in society, it's a microcosm. Football's a microcosm of life. To get rid of racism with football, you have to get rid of it in society, not the other way around. So unfortunately, we're using football to try and drive it. So look at Mo. We've changed the way people think about Muslims. We've got Mo's hair. I can tell you, if Mo leaves, that's going to change. So that is how fickle it is. It can do nothing about it. So it never bothered me. What really bothered me, and I'll tell you why, from a racism point of view, I thought this since I was 18 years old.

30:30I remember coming from Arsenal, up the Holloway Road, going back to Watford in the A1, and me and Luther were being abused. This is a Saturday at 4 o 'clock on Holloway Road. and, you know, it happened to be Arsenal fans, but our new Arsenal fans cheered Rocky and Wrighty, so how real is that anyway? But anyway, they're racially abusing us, but we felt safe, and if you go to them, they have an autograph, but when I looked out into the street, you saw normal, average, working-class, white, black people walking, having to hide in corners, being abused, and no one speaks for them. They speak for me, and I've got money, I've got a car, I've got a house and stuff like that.

31:01So really, from that point, we understood that when you're looking at tackling racism or bias, because, of course, you have bias towards women as well, but unfortunately we're looking at it from the elite perspective, either footballers or politicians, rather than what's going down in the cities for the average woman or the average gay person or whatever. So I look at racism in a different way. I think we're doing it the wrong way. I think we're using football as an example of change, but it can't be because if all it took for racism to rear its ugly head again was three black players to miss a penalty, that meant that we could not go right away.

31:29All we're doing is teaching people how to keep quiet. How does it make you feel in them moments when people are saying stuff to you? Well, once again, it's different for everybody. And I use Wrighty as an example. I used to call Wrighty Malcolm X and I was Martin Luther King. He's a bit diplomatic. Because Wrighty deals with it in a different way. Because his experience is different. I came from a middle class, elite Jamaican family. My mother's family started the first Jamaican government. My mother's family first started the first Jamaican government with Michael Manley, Norman Manley in the 50s.

31:53And what they quickly realized is that this is a new elite black government. And they're going to discriminate against black working class people. And they're black themselves. So when you talk about bias or racism, it's also to do with class. how many white working class people can't get a job and no one's speaking for them you know so therefore you have to look at it from a point of view of class elitism it's not feminism you can't just look at it from race and i've never really looked at it from that and because i was brought up in an elite family in jamaica who subconsciously used to discriminate against black working class people and where we lived where we went to we would mix with work a bit like you know the way the world is so i was fortunate that when i then came to england and this racist abuse started to come to me i was like well you can't be talking about me because i'm a superior because my life showed me that i'm superior to everybody wrongly you're a bourgeois black yeah well whatever they want to call it you know what i mean but that's what my life showed me so therefore i remember when i played and you know i'm being racially abused i look behind and say who are they talking to me i said you see where i live you see the car i drive so you can't make me feel less than you can't disenfranchise me because you feel superior to me because you're white and you can't even spell your own name you haven't even got a job now i completely empathize with women, black people, whose life has shown them that and they've been completely demoralized and exploited and discriminated against.

33:06But my life, even when I came to England, so I came at 13 and where did I live? We lived in Highgate. We lived in Mayfair. We lived in, the last six months when my dad got recalled back to Jamaica, we gave up the house, it was a new rented house and we lived in Piccadilly in the Jamaican embassy in a four-bedroom house. I remember we had to run. It's so funny because I was running home one day because my dad was training, 16. I was just training at Watford and I'm running home one day and it's about 11 o 'clock from Hyde Park running down Piccadilly to go home and this policeman started to follow me and that used to happen all the time but particularly if you're a young black kid running at midnight and he's like on Piccadilly so I'm running in Piccadilly I then run up Conduit Street and we lived in a dead end just off behind Bond Street and it's a dead end so this policeman's following me and he's walking about 10 yards behind me but of course he can't just stop me because I'm just walking down the road but now I've turned into this cul-de-sac on Bond Street to go home and my house is right at the end.

33:59It's a dead end. Of course, now, of course, I'm going to rob it. What am I doing up there? But I'm very comfortable because I'm going to walk in, open the door, turn around and say, good night, officer, going to my house. So as I'm doing that now, I've put the key in the door, but my mom forgot I was out, so she's put the chain on. Oh, no. Right? So I've opened the door and I've pushed it. And of course, it won't open. So that's when I'm not even conscious of thinking about this. I start again. And then, of course, he's thinking you're breaking it. I started to laugh. So I've turned around, looked at him, and he's gone, all right son I've called for help come quietly come quietly so my sister's come running down and she's opened the door and she's seen the police and she's going to my news call me Johnny she goes the police have brought me home because they thought the police brought me home so it was a bit of a misunderstanding so the good old days You're the player that I remember being visibly most racially abusing than any player I've ever seen in the country because of the fact that there were bananas constantly thrown on the pitch either actually against you with a club football or in international football and that happened on a regular basis No but here's the thing because the most iconic picture, iconic, when we talk about the one against, but listen, that was 1987.

35:02Now, I've been playing for Woffers in 1981. That happened all the time. The reason it was highlighted was because Liverpool-Everton and two best teams in the country to make a high-profile game. Black players were used to that every single week. So it was like normal. And until that happened, whereby people went, oh, does this really happen? I mean, right, we'll tell you. This happened all the time. So, you know, I mean, it's great that it's a high-profile game. It's always brought to people's attention. but this was nothing new. This is nothing that I had not been through before and I do not even remember doing it because that happened every week and you kick a butt out of the field.

35:32Great iconic picture, back heel, whatever. I don't even remember doing it because people said, do you remember it? No, because that happened so often. That's just the way it was. I think we spoke a few weeks ago about players being targeted playing for England, black players being targeted playing for England and did you feel that obviously when you played for England as well that it was more difficult for you to have to prove yourself? A lot of it was to do with my not being born in England. Because I remember, I mean, Jimmy Greaves, funnily enough, they made a comment because I wasn't born in England, so how committed are you?

35:59But I always used the Irish boys as an example. You know, look at John Aldridge and Tony Cascarino on back. They're not flipping Irish, are they? Don't let them fool you guys. You know, they're the Scouts, really. But what point I'm making is when they play, as Roy knows, when they play for Ireland, they're committed because that's who you choose to play for. I use Stuart Pearce as an example. I mean, English learn through. British Bulldog gives 100%. Now, I know Stuart's got about 80, 79, whatever. If you had 79 caps and Stuart's 80th cap happened to be for France against England, he would give 100 % in England.

36:27So it's got nothing to do with your ball and stuff like that. But of course, when things aren't going well, they can look to say that. But when things are going well, you're English, aren't you? Because those players who missed those penalties were English, so they missed the penalties. But that's the way the world is. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. What about that goal? That goal that you scored against Brazil? What a goal. Is that a moment in your life where you think, is that a turning point moment in your life where everyone recognises you sort of globally, internationally?

36:57Against Brazil as well. Against Brazil. The thing about it is that I look at Giggs' goal against Arsenal. Semifinal of a cup. Meaningful game. This Brazil, listen, to play in Americana, it's great. It was only half full. That's 90 ,000 people, by the way. So it was only half full. Dilapidated stadium. It's a friendly match. Yes, we're watching it, but, you know, If he's in a World Cup, I pick up finals. I look at that. So it was a great... But I think... I always think that if that was a serious game, someone would have tackled me because it was just a woeful attempt. First of all, by Leonardo and Leandro, sorry, and then Junior.

37:30I'm trying to put more names. You weren't past. You were jinxing them, though, weren't you? But the funny thing about it, I don't remember... I can't remember anything about the goal. Not a thing. You're just going past bodies as they see it. Yeah, because what happens is I remember, if you speak to anyone who scores a free kick, I remember every free kick I've scored because you consciously think, I've put the ball down, I want to bend it over the wall into the corner. So you consciously think about doing it before you do it. So when you do it, you remember it because you thought about it. When you score a goal about dribbling, you're not thinking about what you're doing.

37:59You can't because if I think I want to go left and you go left, I've got to go right. So you're just instinctively doing it. So when you actually finish and you do whatever you do, you don't really remember what you're doing. So when I look at it, it looks great. But in terms of the way it felt, it really just felt as if you're just going, and then all of a sudden the goal was there. so, you know, it just looked better than it felt. You were so stylish. It's because of the shorts though. Oh man. When you were on them runs. But it was so funny about that. I mean, the Forest game, I'm one of those Forest games that were unbelievable.

38:27Honestly, I remember the Forest game. I remember. Piercy, just like him and Steve McMahon had a bit of an issue, didn't they? I remember. I remember one. Piercy had an issue. I remember one game. You remember Aldo rubbed Brown Laws on the head. So he had a bit of an issue with that. So the next game they were playing, that had been an altercation and Aldo and Brown Laws were like face-to-face. and Percy came running over. And as he comes running over like that, I thought, he's obviously going to hit Aldo. He's just pushed Aldo out the way. He's grabbed Brian Lawrence by his throat and he's gone, never mind him.

38:57Get Marr.

39:02I don't know why, but you know. It was the toughest right back. Because obviously, Lawrence, he was a right back. Here's the interesting thing. All the lunatics were left backs, weren't they? Mark Dennison, Dixon, all of them. All the lunatics seemed to be left backs. My hardest right back opponent, not to do with being tough because then everyone kicked everybody but the hardest one and I started off it seems like a couple of hours ago now but it was only about 15 minutes ago but I said my first responsibility was to not let anybody chase I had to chase the fullbacks now this fullback wasn't hard and tough and defensively but Viv because Viv Anderson was attacking non-stop and now not until I remember when Graham Taylor says never mind what you do you chase back and I went to Newcastle in 96 and that's when of course foreign players started coming and I remember David Ginola so it was only a couple of months with David And then, of course, they would say to David, Kevin Keegan, David said, no, I don't chase back.

39:49Wow. I don't chase back. Because now you have an attacking fullback, they don't chase them back, do they? I mean, Mo did when Jürgen was here, but now you don't see, you know. So, as I said, my hardest fullback was really because Viv was always attacking. You talked about being hard for England. Graham Taylor obviously went on to obviously manage England. And obviously he's remembered famously for the documentary that was made. And obviously what happened with regards to the sort of not qualifying for the tournament. How would you describe that in terms of, how would you describe Graeme Saylor as a manager?

40:17Where would he be viewed now? And obviously, how would you think about what happened with him with England? Well, first of all, you have to look at, and I say this about players as well, you have players who are suited to certain clubs. And be suited to a club has to be suited to the environment of the club, to the way that the club wants to play football. You cost a million pounds, you're the best. You're not going to suit a club if you don't play that type of football. And unfortunately, people just run by the flavour of the month, you're worth a hundred million, we're going to sign you, rather than fitting the pieces into the...

40:41Like, look at Firmino. I don't remember anyone who wanted Firmino from Hoffenheim. I don't remember anyone who wanted Salah when he's coming or Mane. But Jurgen Klopp fitted him into that system. That's what Graham Taylor did. Now, the problem Graham has is that he can take Watford or a smaller club because of his philosophy on the way football is played. Very rigid, 4-4-2 crossover runs, born into the channel, you don't pass into midfield. If you want Gazra and people like that, that's not going to happen. So, therefore, for England, when you have superstar players, that wouldn't necessarily work.

41:07Like Guardiola, can he go and manage Swindon and want to play that type of football? Or can a manager manage there? Did you say to Graham about that when you were with England about that sort of crossover of styles and stuff? No, but you see, so he tried to. And what Graham should really have done is just say, listen, which is what probably Tuchel might do for what's going on with England now when he didn't have the Cole Palmers and, you know, the Phil Fodans, how well they did, trying to fit them into something that maybe he doesn't like doing. Graham didn't really have a choice because he had to pick these players who are, rather than thinking, let's just pick the players I want, who aren't big names.

41:36So Graham, managing England, then felt he had to compromise his philosophy and big players who he didn't really like to play. However, from Graham's point of view, the documentary, the biggest overriding factor of all of that was he is an Englishman who believes everybody has to love England, be proud to be English, and support England. And you know what the media are like. So therefore, when he opened himself up in the documentary, because he feels, I'm going to open myself up, go to the press, and say, this is what I want because they're going to be with me because we're all Englishmen. They were just waiting to, you know, what the press are like.

42:06So therefore, he was naive in feeling he could, like, bring them with him and be honest when we don't play well, he's going to be honest with them, they're going to support him, whereas they're just waiting for him to fail. And they did it to Bobby Robson as well. You know what our press are like. We need the Irish press, don't we? We're not very supportive. Changing now, yeah? I won't start here. Yeah, yeah. So that's the way it was. So I felt sorry for Graham, but I never really felt like you took Aston Villa, who were not doing particularly well in his second. It would have been difficult for Graham to go to an Arsenal or to Manchester United or to a Liverpool.

42:35The style difference. Well, the acceptance, because maybe he could go to Liverpool and sign players and be successful but of course you're not going to be playing Kenny and people like that so are you going to be given that time and that support so he has a particular So what are you saying that he was kind of forced to put the big names in? Well he's not going to leave Garen Incar out is he? You know what I mean as much as you're a strong manager and we have this with Tuchel Coluccagan Serbia when he didn't have them and look how well they played now all of a sudden they all come back Bellingham on phone is he then going to resist to put them in?

43:03You know what I mean? It takes a big man to do that This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing John, you know where the Liverpool team you come into, I always describe you as the Thierry Henry, basically, of that time, from 87 to sort of 91. And that Liverpool team... There you go, I'll pass you over 20 quid. Give it to him.

43:28But you then come into a Liverpool team, let's say the Premier League Liverpool team, that just fell short up against the lads Manchester United. I got a little glimpse of that as I was a young player. coming through. What were the differences there? Was it a mentality thing? Was it a quality thing? It was a Liverpool thing. So therefore, when I look at the men, because of course, you know, you're similar ages to Jamie and Maka and all of them. So you have this, and they have this Spice Boys image. And I know, because of course, at Manchester United, not saying that you would have been one of them, but you look at Giggsie and Bex and stuff.

43:59If Fergie wasn't strict with them, they could have, you know, Giggsie liked the night out, Bex and whatever. So Fergie is very strong. Whereas Liverpool's way was, we do not, A, we do not coach you and we do not tell you how to live your life. But when you come to training on a Monday, you could be drunk, whatever, you perform. Now that's fine if you're experiencing it or not, but you know, so that philosophy is not good for young players because Liverpool never had young players. They'll always sign one or two players and mixing with the old players and you learn the Liverpool way. But all of a sudden, you know, they had five or six young players coming in and Premier League was kind of changing to make them kind of like the superstar thing, going out to London and nights out and stuff.

44:31And I know that Fergie would have had a problem if he wasn't as strong with some of the younger players at Man United. So I think the Fergie factor kept Man United like that. And the Liverpool, I can't say Man United factor, because I don't know whether Ron Atkinson or whatever would have been different. But I think Fergie was like that. Whereas the Liverpool thing was always, we don't care what the players like. But when you experience a soon-to-send-out glitch, you know when to get drunk, you know when to do what you want. But for Liverpool, we allow them to just do what you want. I'm glad you said that, because I tried to make a point, maybe clumsily, a year or two ago in Turin on a programme, and he disagreed with me, that if you put Matt Manum and Redknapp...

45:04Is that Robbie Fowler? Robbie Fowler Robbie Fowler to me was one of the most I think Robbie Fowler was probably the best goal scorer naturally that I've ever seen as a kid left foot right foot header tap-ins everything and I made the statement if Robbie Fowler had grown up at United under Sir Alex Ferguson's guidance in that sort of dressing room to be fair where we weren't allowed to go out at the same levels as you were and I knew that what Liverpool lads were doing because we could see them sometimes in cheerleaders in Manchester and in different bars all over the place is cheerleaders a place just to clarify I was driving past his feet.

45:36Just make sure Fowler and Matt Manamon were in there. My point is that you'd hear about, you know, and I knew because of playing with England, that there were a group of players at Liverpool. There was a big drinking culture, and maybe there was a United dressing room a little bit, but I felt like it was a lot more under control, and particularly young lads. I'm a right to say that if Robbie had been in that Alex Ferguson dressing room, he would have been sort of like at 300 goals in the Premier League and he'd have been completely different. I think he would have been. I think so. As much as you say it was controlled, it was controlled by Fergie.

46:04Because, listen, I know Robbo. We used to go out with him, Robbo and Paul McGrath, Norman Whiteside. So, of course, if you're a young player and you're not being controlled by a figure like that, as much as it's a bit different. Because I don't know whether the peer pressure was on you. Because I know what it's like even growing up. You know, people go, come on, have a drink. And if you're not drunk, we'll get out. Well, Giggs, if you remember with Sir Alex with Giggs and Sharp, he turned up at the house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And literally dragged Giggs out. Literally put him in. Basically, that was like I said, you don't quite...

46:31Look, at Liverpool, they didn't really trust you if you didn't want to go out and have a drink. Pre-season, you know, we're going out. Yeah. Clarence, you don't go out. Even the staff were like, what's the matter with them? You know what I mean? It was a completely different way. Now, the problem was when you have experienced players, yes, you can go out, you can have a drink, but you know what to do, you know when to... For youngsters, you can't just allow them to do whatever they want, particularly if you're going to influence them in that way. And at Liverpool, the Liverpool way was you do whatever you want.

46:57The difference is that I remember, even after Christmas parties even after a night out when you came into training you couldn't not train better than everybody else as much as you know you could be sick behind the thing because you had better drink you couldn't then all of a sudden not turn up and train but we know the influence of alcohol now don't we on performance more than we did then yes but back then everybody was doing it I genuinely think in that first 4 or 5 6 years that we came into the team and we were winning I genuinely believe there was a talent obviously I genuinely believe there was a fitness thing that other clubs were still carrying on drinking and we weren't quite at that level But then who took it further was Wenger when Wenger did.

47:29That's what Wenger did with totally other people like that. So therefore, the point I was making, and that's a bit later, when I was at Liverpool, say three, four years earlier, the reason Liverpool were the best were because, okay, good footballers, but everybody was doing that. Now, once one team stopped doing it, they would have an advantage. That's what happened to us. Yeah, I agree. So as much as you say the effects Alcalde has on your performances, because everybody was doing it, everybody was at the same level. Once one team stops doing it, they're going to go ahead. and that's why Bengen really came and changed it and the players had to buy into it.

48:00And it wasn't just the managers it was the foreign players were coming in. Exactly. So we, again the Dresden, Life Force into United again a lot of obviously British, Irish players and that was the norm whereas the lads started coming in they wouldn't drink you'd be like what's up with you but then you start picking up their traits and then the more foreigners came in the more you were going out and you came in on a Monday there was less players going out whereas at the start most players go to weekends you'd all come in a bit rough. And we saw it in Europe we played in Europe and these foreign players and after the game it was like, what, just having a glass of wine?

48:28You know what I mean? And a cigarette. Did training get to a level, though, where you couldn't do that? Like, you would have been farmed out. That's exactly what happened, Jill. Yeah, you get farmed out. If you did a late night, whereas years ago, everyone would have a late night, especially on a Saturday or Sunday, you come to Monday, you could be rough. But then you would come in, you realise, and there's only two or three of us rough now. It was before, it would be 10 or 15. So the farm players definitely brought that influence, of course, because that's the way they lived their lives. And you have to look and learn from them.

48:52John, can I ask you about, you spoke about your journey though playing centre-back a little bit for Watford and that is why I was able to move into midfield yeah because when I were up from Merkley's tendon and I couldn't do what I did on the left wing anymore I felt very comfortable going in there and I knew I was playing in midfield and I'm going to have to try and play not in the same tackling as Ronnie Wheeler but getting the ball off the back front playing it simple but then the fans aren't happy what's he doing John Barnes not doing that but I understood that this is the way I have to play in this team in that position so it was easy for me to make that transition because of the way I'd been brought up in Watford playing in different positions.

49:21Now, the fans aren't going to appreciate me because Barnes is not the same because he's not doing what he did. But I knew I had to play in that way in that position. Well, I actually, I mean, I wasn't going to... I'll mention my second game for Liverpool. I played centre midfield. I come on sub and half-time against West Ham. Me and you played. Me and you played. You don't remember that, John. That's why you ran around more than me. But the point I was trying to make was your journey in football is different to players now in terms of academies. and we're talking about producing more technical footballers and they're in the academies three or four times a week, they're touching the ball more and all that.

49:55But even though I've been out of Liverpool for, say, sort of over 10 years now, I still never played with a more technical footballer than yourself and Jan Mulby. And that was almost like that's 80s players, really. So we talk about sort of technical ability. Where are you in terms of how you became so good technically but sort of the academies now, do you think that is producing more technically players? And then I look at you and think, I've still never seen anything like that what I saw every day on a training pitch. I think because the laws of the game has changed as well, which means that if you're very technical and you're playing in midfield and then Roy wants to come and kind of just be a bit over physical, it's going to be a free kick, isn't it?

50:35Whereas back then it wasn't. So as much as having technical ability, you had to have that resilience as well, which meant that technical players now, look at Andrew Appirino, for example, and players like Iniesta, because you could still tackle them. Whereas now, it's so much easier for technical players because you can't tackle them. You can't tackle them at all. So are we concentrating too much on technique? I think we're concentrating too much on tricks because I don't know how real it is. It could be AI, but on my phone all the time, I'm seeing people I've never heard of and the skills that they're actually doing looks incredible.

51:03But what you see now are players putting themselves in positions to do certain tricks, like jackbacks and stuff like that. For me, technical ability for me is getting in the right area on the half turn with an awareness around you to be able to get the ball and play one touch or two touch. Whereas we feel technical ability now is about having five and six and seven and eight and nine touches on the ball. You know, so I think it's more to do with me looking at Ronnie Whelan as an example or other players and what they did in those positions and me trying to recreate what they did. And as I said, what Graham Taylor made us do at Watford is we had to be able to play in every position.

51:36So there is a functional requirement of a position. And if you understand that, playing on the left wing, playing on the centre-black, playing on the right back, playing in these positions, if you understand that and you are technically competent, you should be able to play. You see people playing in many different positions rather than thinking, I am a centre forward, I'm a left winger. But you were so skillful, weren't you? You were so skillful when you watched, you had the tricks under pressure. Where did that come from? But it wasn't, when people talk about tricks, I don't think I would beat a player, but I wasn't a player like Noraheem does lots of tricks.

52:11I think I was more direct than that. You're just doing it to begin. You beat them and then do something. I wasn't... But what a trait that is to have. You mentioned, obviously, Jan Mulvey, when I played against you. Couldn't get the ball off you. What a trait that is to have. I mean, for midfield, that's why you look at the Barcelona midfield players, you're like, well, they're little. I mean, they're not particularly quick. Xavi's not quick. And he's not like Ronaldo, step over. So how come? Because the awareness of people around you and also what helps is once you have a team, to give you an example, when a lot of teams now want to play out from the back, the problem you have with playing out from the back is it takes all 10 outfield players because if they're going to press you with four, how are you going to play from the back?

52:46Other players have to get in different positions. All it takes, if you're playing out from the back, is for two midfield players not to show or not to be in the position and it breaks down. So it's not about you. It's about the team as well to give you that space and to make sure that you can, you should be able to play two touch from the goalkeeper gives you the ball all the way through. When they get into the final third, yes, you need some skill. But that's where everybody has to be on the same page. So when you talk about the technique or the skill, it's not just about you because if Xavi didn't have anyone to play a one, two, four or for somebody to look for the ball, Xavi can't do it.

53:13You just mentioned it, John, but that's just having a vision in your head. It's called football intelligence space. When to take one touch. You see that midfielder is now taking four, five, six touches. You see the Barcelona. Give it, get it back, even if it's to move somebody a yard. Yeah. Why do they have four touches? Because when they get the ball, the person they want to pass to is not there. And they haven't got an option. And then when he gets it, there's no other option. So once you have a team knowing that if they're going to press you, because really, if you're going to play with a back four, you are playing, you know, and you have two up front, you're playing eight against six.

53:40You know what I mean? and unless the fullbacks are going to push it and leave two up front. That's what Man City do. So all of a sudden you try and push Man City with Haaland, they're just going to play it long. So they don't. And you have to find the spare man and you have spare men all over the field. You never play 11 against 11 in thirds. Yeah, but is that football, like our backtracks, is that just football intelligence? If you're squeezing, we obviously had a hairball people losing the ball, we saw Villa losing the ball, people trying to go in the back. But if you're under pressure and I'm a midfielder like you are and you come short, you go, listen, if it's two times, just miss me out.

54:05But it has to be a team intelligence because you have that intelligence. But if you're saying, when you get the ball, you need someone to look, but if they're not on the same wave end as you, then what do you do? You're going to have to dribble around them, aren't you? So therefore, the team intelligence of how I know if you're going to press, you are now going to be marked, I'm going to go in that position. If someone marks me, someone else has to. So it's really the whole team moving to then try and find the spearman. So football intelligence, individually, is very important, but the team intelligence in terms of...

54:28Something you said there, Roy, about John and Jan Moby, about you couldn't get the ball off them. I always remember Steve Aiway at Liverpool. I was in the youth team at the time. And we were doing a possession and it's breaking down. It's not going well. And I always remember him saying, there's only one player at this football club you can actually give the ball to with a man on him. Because he was trying to, why can't we receive the ball with a man on us? Everyone's like, if someone gives you the ball, remember your ears, you always, I've got a fucking man on. Yeah. There's only one player at this football club you can actually give the ball to with a man on.

55:01It was you. And I say to people, I don't ever remember a training session where, for about 12, 18 months when I was training with the first team as you were coming to the end, where you weren't at the same level. I mean, literally not lose the ball in a whole training session. That happened more in the training than the matches, I have to say. But I tried to train properly. I always believed. Because, of course, that's what it is. I say to kids, you don't pass an exam on the day you take it. You pass the exam on your preparation. You need to do the studying, studying, studying. So you know it.

55:29Football's the same. You don't just see Messi and Ronaldo on a Saturday and think they just turn up. So therefore, I always try to train properly. You train as if you're going to play. Obviously, not in terms of, because I didn't do that, but in terms of receiving the ball, keeping people off. So I always try to train. Was that natural for you, Barnsley, just to receive the ball comfortably on the half turn, no problem? Did you? Well, I didn't really. How do you know whether it's natural or not? It's practice, practice, practice, practice. That's what you do all the time. You're in the right positions.

55:55Your footwork, your body movement. And the more you repeat it, the more it becomes second nature. So there's nothing I don't think does it. There are very few, I believe, real naturally. Look at Pele and Maradona and people like that. But it's something that you just learn, you do, you do. Like finishing. You could be a natural finisher, but if you don't practice, practice, practice, practice, you won't come. So it's really about the practice. Who was the best player that you ever played with at Liverpool? Once again, one of our best players. I would look at Alan Hansen. He's the most influential player.

56:20You talk about someone bringing the ball out from the back, playing them when you're playing against Fashion and Whitehurst and McAlphin. Never liked that. But in terms of playing modern football, football now, Alan Hansen was incredible. You could not get the ball off him. You'd bring it out from the back. Him and Virgil van Dijk for me in the last 40 years, whatever. So Alan Hansen probably. But for Liverpool it was always, you know what I played for England? The most technically gifted player I've ever seen in my life, even to this day, is Glenn Hoddle. Glenn Hoddle, I mean, you would have had him with England as a manager, but as a player, he was incredible.

56:47But he played at a time when English football was about that. It wasn't about technique, but Glenn was incredible. But Alan Hansen, was it easier for the defenders back in the day? I'm not being harsh on Liverpool, where you could just go back to the goalkeeper as well. Oh, yeah, yeah, but very rarely did he go back to the goalkeeper. Is that right? So what was easy for Alan Hansen was that you had six foot five center foes who were particularly mobile. So he didn't like it in the air and all that thing. But normally a center forward, Alan could dribble around them. Whereas now, you know, I don't know how hard they're working because Rushy worked really hard.

57:13But I think it was easy for him because he used to get the ball off the keeper and he would just dribble the ball out. It'd probably be harder for him now to dribble the ball out. So swings and roundabouts. It was hard for him physically because Alan didn't like the fit and you were allowed to get a broken nose and stuff. But in possession, as much as they're working hard, Alan would play one-twos out from the back. Was he a big leader in the dressing room, Alan Hansen? Alan Hansen was a leader on the pitch. He never said a word in the dressing room. Very quiet. Very quiet. That's interesting.

57:39Never said a word. He's so interesting at Liverpool. You didn't have, you know, at Liverpool it was more about the team and leaders in the team rather than a commanding figure who's going to go, come on, Lance, let's get going. Liverpool always wanted to have. I suppose the difference when you were playing was that because you had so many foreign players coming in that you needed a kind of like a stabilising influence, be they British or be they strong like you and Stevie. Whereas when we played, Alan Hanson would sit down and stay quiet and there wasn't any real individual leaders. That was the same at night.

58:09There was no big shouting going on in the dressing room before the game. But it's interesting, when you go with England, and like Stuart Pearce was in the dressing room or Tony Adams, and you love experience, they were screaming like absolute crazy. Don, did you find that as well? With England, it was a very different dressing room. Well, Terry Butcher was. I mean, Terry Butcher would headbutt the walls and stuff like that. That's what Tony would do. Yeah, but, I mean... That's clever, isn't it? Is that what the band did? But, I mean, that never inspired me or not inspired me. You know, I wasn't interested in whether he was going to shout or not.

58:36I mean, some people go, he's the leader. And looking after, but I was going, well, what's he doing that for? You know what I mean? Because it's like... So, yeah, so I don't think that... Liverpool always looked at the character of the players without needing to be obviously vociferous and, come on, let's get going and stuff like that. Because I think a lot of that is just for show as well. You know what I mean? If you're like that, you're like that. But for me, that didn't influence me. If it's interesting you talk about Liverpool and you were brilliant winning the leagues all the time. Again, they wouldn't be trying to man a...

59:02You had a lot of men, didn't you? It was a team that you thought, to win the league, you wouldn't be trying to man a young lads, would you? Well, that's the point I made. Yeah. Liverpool didn't... You kind of have to forget about that. What are the ball players at 23, 24, having had six, seven years somewhere and you look really good, bring one or two youngsters in? Now, all of a sudden, when you just get a whole group of youngsters in, and we've had that conversation, You had a whole group of youngsters, but you had Fergie. When you have a whole group of youngsters coming into a Liverpool way, where youngsters are going to be left to their own devices, that's a risk.

59:27But was there any young players, even one or two getting in at Liverpool when you were there? I'm trying to think off the top of my head. The 80s, was there... Can you take a minute? They brought Jamie in. Gary Ablett came through, didn't he? Yeah, but Gary was there for like five, six years before he... How old was Jamie? Jamie was young, but Jamie never got on the team for like, you know, two, three years. He came in and, you know, he came in later because there was really... Jamie joined in 91. 91, Jamie. Yeah, he came in 91, but he wasn't a regular fixture. So he came in just to be part of it.

59:53And then you learnt from what you saw. You know, learning from what you see from a training perspective. And that's lads training and sitting on the bench, whereas nowadays we're talking about me and New Orleans and having no patience. Whereas at Liverpool or United back now, you might have to wait six or twelve, even a year and a half. Rushy. That doesn't happen anymore. Rushy didn't get any team straight away. And it cost 300 grand from Chester, which is a lot of money. But he had to sit and learn and watch and learn the Liverpool way and, you know, work harder and run. I remember Rushy said to me, you know, and he played really well.

1:00:19He scored two goals. The first thing Ronan Morano said to him, you remember when you miscontrolled that ball? Never mind your goals. Whereas now, we're overemphasising the importance of a play if he does well. They always look at what you don't. And as much as they do like and they do praise you, they understand that we have to, we can't keep you on your toes. We have to keep you on your toes. Just talk to us a little bit about Sir Kenny. Obviously, we had him on the show a couple of months back about his influence, obviously, as a player manager, but also in terms of just generally his leadership as a coach.

1:00:44Well, listen, when Kenny signed me, And having after I was at Liverpool for about three months, I thought I'm playing on the Bill Shankly. What Bill Shankly did, Bob Paisley continued, Joffrey continued, Kenny Lall continued. They did the exact same thing. Kenny didn't coach. Kenny was good at seeing players, picking the team, putting things together. All Kenny, what Kenny did in training, like you go out, you warm up, and Kenny, just before we played our five-ass hours, we did it, come running out, join in the five-ass hours, score a few goals, go back in. Love that. Ron Moran, Roy Evans took the training, but we didn't do anything.

1:01:17So the influence was from Bill Shank. Everything he did. Now, football changed in 92. Things changed. You know, you had to have a little changing room. You had to have a little... And Liverpool were very slow, which is why I felt that they were left behind. Very slow to change. Because when football was changing, Liverpool were like... Changing what way? In the way of modernity. The changing room. And also dealing with young players, dealing with players. And don't forget, all of a sudden, we're signing players. January, we're signing players. Liverpool never used to do that. You know? and which is why I think and I say this about Man United and Liverpool went through this until we got to this age but oh Kenny wouldn't have done this Kenny wouldn't have done this Shankly wouldn't have done this until Jürgen came when we don't care what everyone else did in the past we have to have something new now which is what Jürgen started now unfortunately I think from your point of view from Man United's point of view we're still looking at the way it was back then and this is not the Man United way you know in the old days this isn't the Liverpool way forget that we have to have a new way And I think until Man United say, we have to have a new way, regardless of what went on in the past, all you'll be doing is trying to live up to the standards of the past.

1:02:19And Liverpool went through that for a long time until Jurgen came when they said, we don't care what Dalglish and Shankly, not in a bad way, did. What do you want to do? That is when all of a sudden... Why was it when Jurgen came, do you think? You know, if you look at Man United, what's it going to take? Well, because Liverpool has an identity of the environment and Jurgen is like that. Never mind he gets it, he's like that. I don't think Jurgen could go to Real Madrid, Bayern Munich. He's quite a socialist who likes, he doesn't like the superstar thing. He likes to be a man of the people, if you like.

1:02:49And I think that he suits Liverpool. And then once the fans love a manager and back a manager, the players then have to perform. And once he comes down, because we have some superstar players, I don't have to mention any names, who under different circumstances, I'll use a boomerang at Arsenal, when he got away with stuff. And whenever he was left out of the team, they booed the manager, sat the manager. Then Arteta came and Arteta was strong and look what happens now. Klopp had a couple of players where before, leave him out, the fans are going to boo him, they put him on the pitch he didn't and the fans still backed him so until the fans are going to back the manager and give him 100 % carte blanche to do anything and look at the outcome of that You said before you're a scouser and obviously you were born in Jamaica you obviously live in London live in London but I've been in Liverpool more than everyone but then you basically sort of see yourself as scouser is that just the way in which the city grips you when you obviously play for Liverpool?

1:03:31Well you know it's really interesting because as much as I told you about my life in Jamaica but I've always you know football is a working class sport yeah so therefore as much as you know I'm a middle class boy from uptown Kingston, as Wrighty likes to remind me. When I played football, when I played football at school and in other areas, and Wrighty will know these areas, you talk about Trentstown, Boys Town. I used to play in the inner cities as a middle-class kid. They're not coming to my house, but that's what football is. And football for me is a socialist sport. There's no hierarchy in football.

1:03:57There is in terms of money. There's in terms of fame, prestige, the way you're seen. But you win together, you lose together. Most Salah can't win and the sub lose. You all win together. Or if he loses, he loses. So I've always felt an affiliation with normal people. And when I came up north, north of Birmingham, and it happened to be Liverpool, I'm sure Manchester would have been the same. I like the people. They're down to earth, just normal people. And you can't walk around with errors and gracies. You can't walk around and pretend you're something that you're not more important. That's why I've always said that it takes a special character to play for Liverpool.

1:04:28If you look at Liverpool, when they're on a great team with Sammy Lee and all these players, they're not the best in the world. They're not playing for England, but they're the best in the world because it's about a family and a togetherness. as a community as well. You know, so that is why I remember I was walking around town and I just played for Newcastle. I just retired and I'm walking through by Bow Street and this young kid had a pint of lager. He was only 15, not even 15. He's drinking a pint in town. He's drinking a pint in town and I'm walking by and he goes, Barnsley, Barnsley. He's like that.

1:05:00He's like, you know, it might have been you. Barnsley. I goes, oh yeah. He goes, go on, give us a rap, give us a rap. Like that, you know what I mean? and I walk past him and I've gone, oh, my rapping days are over. And Andre's breath, as he took his seat, he went, football day was over. It's always a joke. He said, football day's over. Well, then I thought, just leave it, just leave it. Are you going to give us a little rap? Speaking of the rap. Are you going to give us a little rap? Just leave a rap. I can give you, in fact, I should get it up on my phone if you give me time. I can give you a better exclusive of the rap.

1:05:25Go on. He did it at the Legends Awards. It's the exclusive. Have we got a new one? Because when we did the rap, you should have... another version of it. You must have heard this. Oh, it's just Peter Beazley. And Gaza. Yeah. So what happened was when we did the rap, we didn't know eight was going to be on New Order. We thought it was just going to be the lads, here we go. So only six people turned up. Me, Gaza, Peter Beazley, Des Walker, Steve McMahon, Chris Wallow. Right? So when six of us turned up, that's when we saw the New Order boys and we thought, oh, it's a New Order song. So Keith Allen was there, the song's finished, the song's finished, there's no rap, got another rap group and then we'd had a few drinks apart from Peter.

1:06:03We're not a rap group. He goes, go, I want to be a laugh. So he wrote the rap. Now, because we live in a democracy, we all had to have a go. I can't say I'm going to do it. So we all had a go. And I did it. It was between me and Dez. Dez Walker. Dez is not black. Musically, Dez Walker is not black. So I did it. So the rest is history. But we all had a go. And about eight years ago, now I'm working at Leicester at an event. And the sound engineer said, my dad was live in the studios when he did the rap. And he's got a recording of me, Gaza, and Peter Percy doing the rap. Have you got it on there?

1:06:32I've got it on the phone. so I've got to play let's hear it let's hear it let's hear it Gaza Gaza must be so exciting Gaza's not bad all together or on their own on their own on their own now Gaza's not bad have a go was there a drink involved here but Peter doesn't drink right but everybody else does yeah yeah is it like a trial like like X Factor you did it on the Jonathan Ross show didn't you so Barnsley with the rap it wasn't something that you knew that morning when we were going I'm going to be doing the rap when we got to the song we didn't even know what the song was we didn't know what we were going to do we just turned up thinking we're going to go typical here we go kind of song we saw some other guys and they said oh it's on New Order it's their song we're just going to jump in on the video why did no one else turn up because we didn't know it was New Order in 1986 we did a World Cup song we've got to number 90 yeah it was terrible so what used to happen Jill as these players would understand you played for England you used to play for your club on a Saturday meet up with England on Sunday played a game Tuesday go back to your club players hated meeting up with England on Sundays because Sundays is a time we should be going to the pub.

1:07:33So when Bobby Robson said, you don't have to meet up with England on Sunday, go to these studios to do the song, then meet up with England on Monday, all the players heard was, you don't have to meet up with England. Oh, yeah. Song's going to be crap, so we're going to meet up on Monday. So only the six disciplined ones, I don't know why Gazza was there, actually went. I saw New Order last year in Dublin. They were absolutely brilliant. Were they, yeah? You get a chance. But were they, was it the proper, was it the, because they've fallen out, Peter Hook and whatever, because that's why they want to re-release the song.

1:07:59Yeah, but they were. Hang on. It's Gazza's. Right, so this is Gazza's first. This is Gazza's.

1:08:08Fair play.

1:08:13No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Wait till you get Peter. Wait till you get Peter. And Peter's sober.

1:08:24They actually wrote it Ingerland.

1:08:33Now, this is the one. OK.

1:08:38The whole thing is...

1:08:45Don't do him like that, man.

1:08:54Oh, no! Four feet up! He's got us a drink. It sounds like he's slurring. I can see how you got the job. Peter doesn't mind. He knows I love him. Peter came to a Salford game about six weeks ago. We were there. We were talking to him. And I played with him for England as well. He was an incredible player. Are you going to do a little rap? Are you going to do his little... Which one do you want? Which one do you want? A live one. Anfield rap? Yeah. Is the Anfield the best football show? Yeah, but Anfield rap, I've got to do the three different ones. That was 1988. The 80-80 Cup final against Wimbledon.

1:09:27Against Wimbledon with the Cup final. My name is John Barnett. Aldo, you're a real place. So Steve McMahon, I've got to do a Scouse action. Do you know him as well? Do you know him? He goes, all right. Steve McMahon goes, all right, Aldo, sound as a fucking bitch. But it's nothing down. The rest of the lads, and then Bruce Groblah goes, the rest of the lads ain't got them sussed. You got to learn in to talk like us. And Bruce Groblah goes, well, I'm repping now. I'm repping for fun. I'm your goalie, the number one. I can take the mic, but don't call me a clown. Any more lip, and you're going down.

1:09:53All right, Ace, be great, me and you. That's the Scousers. but my bit goes, you two scouts are always yapping. I'm going to show you some serious rapping. I come from Jamaica. My name is John Barnes. When you do my thing, the crowd go bananas.

1:10:06You should have said the crowd frog enough. However, righty, you know, when you're a rapper, you can make up words, can't you? Because my name isn't John Barnes, is it? But, you know, to just make it fit. My name is John Barnes. But that's probably when all the players even have a go in. It's a great crowd. That's really good. We're all pissed at them. We're all drunk in the Quadrant Park in the nightclub, dressed up as rappers. in the video. We're all dressed up in rappers in bootle. Did we do a rap? Did we do a rap? You did a World Cup. You must have done FA Cup final song. Yeah, but we don't have a rap.

1:10:31Oh, we've got a copy. Have we got it now? Did it end up? Are you rapping? Yeah, I think he got into the charts. What did it go to? That got to number three. Rapping presents. And for your rap? Yeah. Who's a rap guy? You never did a song when you... Was it Creed Junction? I remember Tipper I read it. Arsenal. Yeah, we've done one. What was it? You've done songs. Shouting for the Gunners. Oh, no, but Wright has done... He's done his own stuff. He's done loads of stuff. I mean, Corley went... There we go. Outstanding. There we go. There's more money on the run, isn't there? That's what it's called.

1:10:58Oh, Corley. Outstanding. My team told me I'll be better solo.

1:11:08There is a rock. There is a video to it. I made a video to it, yeah. Is there any... Who's that? That's me. That's Roy. That's not you.

1:11:20Who's that? Who's rapping? What's that? That's none of the players. Stryker, he's called. I'm going to get the video because Roy's in it. But who was... I didn't hear an United player singing. I didn't hear an United. Was it just... We joined in at the chorus. Oh, you bottled it. And you joined in, yeah? Yeah, joined in. I'm going to get it. You bottled it. At least it rapped. I like that. That sounds like very... We did it in the Quadrant Park. Very Beastie Boys. And we were there from 12 o 'clock. It was so Beastie Boys. And then... We're still there at 9 o 'clock when they open the nightclub for people to come in.

1:11:52Quarantine Park, we all stated about... And you know who we did it with? Righty, you remember Derek B, the rapper? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Derek B did it, right? So what happened was, Derek B's turned up. And of course, Derek B's a professional. So he's like on the thing, whatever. And the players were just like taking the piss out of him. So, Quarantine Park, we're going to do a video. If you look at the start of the video, it goes, Liverpool FC is hard as hell. That was him saying that. But on the video, it's me going, Liverpool FC. Because what happened was, he got there. He did his bit. now he's got a director to the album and the lads were just caning it honestly they're all drunk and they're going what's your name he said Derek what kind of name is Derek B it should be Derek Y Derek Y the fuck am I here or whatever so he left he got on the train and left I don't blame him the lads that's what happened with the boys once I had a few drinks they just bully people that's character building right you're holding up to the world better not when you're an artist Derek B probably didn't know what it is Derek B got on the train and went back to London This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing.

1:12:53Talk to us about managing. So, you play for Celtic. You got me the sack, didn't you? I signed him. I know. So, what had happened was, Paul Lambert rose his jaw. We're about a few points behind range. He's like, we haven't got any players. We've got to get right to you. So, I said, right to you. He goes, yes. He goes, I'm coming up. He goes, I'm training everywhere. I'm fit. I'm strong. I'm coming up. I said, OK. Right, signing. But this was the time when a lot of the players, Stubbsy and Craig Burley, they didn't have good contracts. And Rangers with Michael Moles and all those players were giving them 20 grand a week.

1:13:24So it wasn't a happy time. The year before I came with Wenglas, they'd finished second and Wenglas was a lovely man. And so there was a bit of disharmony there. So I've now come and Kenny came and we started off okay. We were three points behind him up until Christmas. But then when Larsson broke his leg and he broke his jaw, what you need is the harmony. So Viduka then, you were there with Viduka, wanted to go and you know Craig Burley wanted to go they weren't happy and remember in the dressing room when he started taking off his game against Cali well he never played so what happened in Venice Cali Thistle you remember right he had to come on because he just goes and this is where who's this Mark Vodouca because what happened was you have to be careful I don't know what you found with foreign players when they first came in you have to be careful how you speak to them in terms of insulting them you know after the game you got shouted at them and stuff someone that don't like that but Mark Vodouca is an Aussie as much as Croatian and Eric Black the coach said to him because against Timberness Cali Thistle.

1:14:13He goes, oh, you're cheating. He goes, what? He goes, you're cheating because he wasn't running around because he wanted to go to Leeds because Leeds was going to go to Leeds. And he just took his... He just started taking his gear. He said, I'm not playing. I said, you're refusing to go on? He goes, yeah. I said, that's all right. He came. He just took his gear off and got in the bath. So the Sunday, I said to the CEO, what are we going to say about Mark Viducca refusing to play? He said, no, no, no, don't say that. but it's a limited company. All the news has to be good news. So he goes, oh, don't say anything about that.

1:14:41We'll ride them with Storm. We're going to win next week. And then they sat me on the Monday. You know what, as well, it was really weird because remember the fans, they gave him a cheer like he was the Pope when he came out. And he just came in and just took his gear off. I've never seen anything like it. And refused to play. Never seen anything like it. And he's a good lad as well. He is a good lad. But he's like, look at Isaac, what he did. I'm sure he's a good lad. But when you have certain characters, so it was always going to be difficult. at Celtic, but I love the Jamaica job. And I feel that for me or for any black manager, if you like, I think the only way they're going to be successful, you can't go to a big club, regardless of how good you are.

1:15:14Because the perception of it is that if you're winning, everything is great. But as soon as you lose, the perception as to whether you're good enough. Because I'll tell you, the question, can a black ex-player or black manager make a good manager is in itself, and I'll explain why, a racist question. And I'll tell you why. Because it presupposes, it presupposes the question itself. Can a black man make a good manager? Presupposes that there's a slight possibility that you can't be a good manager because of the colour of your skin. Is that a possibility? If it's not a possibility, it's a stupid question.

1:15:45But because people have that perception. It's the same with women coming into football. Listen, if you go to a doctor and you're going to have a heart transplant and one doctor is Jamie Carragher and your doctor is Gareth Southgate and you go to Jamie and he goes, all right, I'm fucking... Gareth Southgate, oh, come on in. Who would you have more faith in? No, no, no, no, no. One second. No, no, no, no, no. I'm being serious. I'm not talking about the people. I'm talking about the accents. Yeah, yeah. And he'd won cash for the opportunity. And he'd won cash as well. So therefore, we do have a perception of North-South divide.

1:16:16Northern Ireland. So we have a perception of someone based on how we've been conditioned to think about them. And unfortunately, from a black perspective, we are conditioned to think that what we are are entertainers. We can sing. We can dance. We can play. We can do sports. Because I remember when I was young growing up, right, you will know this. When we were young growing up, you never had any black goalkeepers, black defenders, sexual defenders. Vivos were the first one, black central midfield players who were like strong. It was always about, listen, you're quick, you're skillful, you can't think too much, you play these positions.

1:16:41Now those myths have been dispelled, you can play anywhere. But you still have this perception as to can you lead, can you think. And no matter how many black players now come to play, until we now change the perception of their worth when it comes to leadership or to managing, nothing will change. You started off that by actually saying that basically there is no way that a black manager can be successful effectively. until society changes perception of their worth. Very much like, is a female going to come and manage a football team? Until we change the perception of her ability. Let's look at referees.

1:17:13Look at a female ref. If a female ref comes in and she doesn't make any mistakes, we all pat ourselves on the back and say, oh, we believe in her, we believe in her. If she makes four or five mistakes, they're going to say it's because she's a woman. If a man makes four or five mistakes, it's not because he's a man, it's because he's a bad referee. But I can guarantee you, if a female referee makes a mistake, they won't say it's because she's a bad referee, they'll say it's because she's a woman. and we change that perception so it's got nothing to do with being black being female being gay whatever it's the perception we have of people who we feel superior to and this is in society it's got nothing to do with football it's got to do with life that's the way life is when I first came to England you know who the thickest people were as far as I was concerned never met them before Irish people paddies no no no no no no let me explain all of a sudden all these paddy jokes thick paddies what did paddy say so the perception was Irish people are thick I never met an Irishman before, so that's the perception.

1:18:04In Kilman all over, all the jokes were Paddy jokes. Have we proved you wrong? Yeah. Because I now know. What on earth did that? Who were the robbers? We don't want to mention that. Now, the point I'm making is that it's not true, but once you then say something so often, it becomes a reality. So as much as people say, oh, it's a joke, people still think it, no matter what they say. But because of Ireland, the Republic, not the North, because, of course, politically now, they've gone past everybody else with what they've done, so therefore they're above everybody now, aren't they? Nice place to live now, the Republic, Roy, isn't it?

1:18:31I was a husband. Nice. Everybody can get the money to back it up now. It's all conditioning. It's all conditioning, isn't it? Man United, Liverpool, Manchester, Scousers, you know, that kind of thing. It's the way you've been conditioned. What's the future hold for you? Who knows? I've got seven children, four grandchildren, another one on the way. I just live day to day. What would you like to do? You know, I've always thought I wanted to manage. And I still do. But, I mean, at 61, now is it going to happen? And I've never, ever, ever wanted to, you know, even Celtic. You know when I went to Celtic?

1:19:01because I understand. Listen to what I said. I knew this from when I was 17 years old, how difficult it was going to be. Sheffield United. I'll talk to Sheffield United and I would have gone to Sheffield United before Celtic. They were in the second division then because I knew I'd be given more of an opportunity than Sheffield United. That didn't come about in time, so I went to Celtic. And I know that now for any manager now, for my black manager, I just want to want to do. 61 may not happen, may not, but I'm still holding aspirations for it. I can't be looking even at a championship club. You know what I mean?

1:19:31So it's a question as to whether I'm willing to go down there and do it. But I'd like to do it. I'd like to do it. I remember at the end of your career, John, obviously Roy Evans was the manager, but you were more than a player. You know, because obviously how good you were. Everybody in the club looked at it. And the way you spoke about the game, as you're doing now. And I remember then, you were going to Ajax to watch them train. Yeah. I remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With Van Gaal as the manager then, yeah. I was convinced, you know, you were going to be a Liverpool manager or have this sort of great manager.

1:19:59And with the pathway. Well, you know what? You know, you make a decision and do you regret a decision? No, because what happens in life is meant to happen. But what happened was I'm at Liverpool. I then went to Newcastle because I wanted to play. I was probably a bit older than Mo, maybe 34, maybe 33. And once I knew I wasn't going to be playing regularly because I want to play football, I could have stayed at Liverpool. But I went because I wanted to play. Now, I could see myself staying at Liverpool. And had I been someone who said, listen, I know I'm going to be at Liverpool, I could go on the staff, that's the way they'd be promoted from within.

1:20:28But because those years I wanted to play, I left. Had I stayed, I, of course, used to promote from within and whatever. I think that that is something that I don't know whether it would not have happened. But if it wasn't for the fact that I wanted to play first in football, which is then why I went into Charlton for the last six months. And you can't regret it because you don't know what would have happened. But I would have loved to have stayed at Liverpool. Put it this way, had I been 36 and my contract was ending, I would have stayed at Liverpool and gone on to the staff and maybe gone on to do that.

1:20:56And I think that would have been easier because you'll be given more time at your own club and the fans would love you. So until he lost one or two games, then it's all different. But that is something that, you know, may have been a possibility. John, you've spoken openly. I'm interested in this because purely of the sort of education for young football players around financial challenges and stuff like that and what's happened to you. Do you want to share with us what, talk to us about that? Well, I wasn't like the, was it the V11? That the film scheme thing. Yeah. So I got caught with a lot of coffee in Brazil, a lot of investments all over the world.

1:21:32And by the time... Was you advising yourself? No, I didn't. My agent was just an agent who did football. These are all the people coming in to say, well, what about this scheme? And then, of course, Villas in Florida. Similar to that, but not mine. I didn't then look to go down the route to do what they did. But I lost a lot of money. And by the time I stopped playing football, and this big tax bill came in. I was then playing catch-up for many, many years until, so I would have from 2017 up until last year, finally paid off about two million pounds. But then the taxman wanted last year's money.

1:22:16After catching in everything I had to pay them, and what I really should have done was gone bankrupt from 2017, and I still would have had two million pounds. I could have done whatever I wanted with it, but because what I didn't want to do is to be seen not to be paying it. So, of course, people think, oh, you're not paying tax, you're not paying tax. From 2017, I've been paying everything I actually had. I've cashed in everything, whatever house I had, so all I've got is my house. So everything I physically can, and I thought I got down to the last year, and I thought, okay, I'm going to owe one year, which is obviously the last year's tax.

1:22:46But it'll be okay because I've been seen to be paying it off, but because they're being overly aggressive, they said, well, we want this, which is eventually why I had to go bankrupt, literally, I don't know, four months ago, six months ago, which really people said, I should have done it and just kept the money. Because I see people go bankrupt and still have houses and cars and stuff like that. And I don't have my house and a car, but I haven't got any investments anywhere because I've cashed it all in. Because I really want people to know. Because I see how hard it is for people all over. They can't even pay their heating bill and stuff.

1:23:12And here am I having money and now not paying the tax. So the only reason I did it was because of that. But that's life. Was it advice on the investments? Because that's my problem. No, but writing back to people you knew, stuff like that. Yeah, but then they say to you, yeah, it's okay, I have a phone, phone him because he's involved and then it's credible names. Listen, that's why you look at footballers now and the advice they get from their tailbone 13 and 14 and their proper people involved. Don't forget, when we were playing, they were like, made to new somebody type of thing. It wasn't really, you know, that structured in terms of...

1:23:43And the club themselves also put you in touch with people who can look after you, whereas back then, you know, I remember even when I first got an agent, they were like, an agent, you don't need an agent. You know, I mean, the way that clubs were, The clubs used to just, you know, I won't say they're abused players, but I remember sometimes they would say to Stephen Nicol once, I don't know who it was, said to Stephen Nicol, listen, the contract's there for you to go unsigned. Just go unsign it. They never said, you know what you go, just go unsign the contract. So all agents did was do the contract and that's it.

1:24:12There's no outside, you know, endorsements and stuff. Whereas once that started and you have money coming, because your salary was always taken care of, because obviously, you know, the club gave it to you. But once outside investments come in, all kinds of people come out of the woodwork. And I think we had to sift through all of them, which this V-level people went through. And mine was a little bit before them. But mine had been going on for a long time because I'd just been paying every single year. It wasn't a one-off. So, for example, 2017, I was paying off from 2012, 2013, 2014. Then 2018, I was paying off all the way up.

1:24:40So really trying to play catch up until last year when I'd caught up to one more year. And if they just said, OK, we'll allow you to then build it up and pay next year. But I said, no, no, no, no, no. We want it now. It's the education around it, isn't it? because as you say when you're getting paid a wage everything's taken care of but then when you become like self-employed but I bet some players don't get great advice now I bet there's still people in the rear going investment I think the Sharks will be even more but to be honest with you I don't think players will go on to that because don't forget any player who's making any money outside of football in endorsements and stuff like that are top are Premier League players you know you don't get players in the second division in League 2 who have any money to be doing anything apart from the salaries they get so what they need is a good accountant whatever they're doing have your own independent account that's the advice I give to a player.

1:25:21You always say that, don't you? Yeah, an accountant. Yeah, an accountant is very important. What's the best piece of advice you ever got given? Don't believe the hype. Don't believe the hype. Graham Taylor. Is that what he said? He said to me, when I was playing for Watford and I'm playing really well and you know the press, oh, we love you, we've been meeting Man United, you're great. Then for England, they're like, give me a bit of stick. I was only 19 and he goes, listen, he said, you know when you play for Watford and they say you're brilliant and you're great and you're fantastic. He said, do you believe them?

1:25:46He said, if you believe them, when you play for England and they sell you that you're crap believe that as well so don't get carried away with that or that so when I say how terrible you are because we've seen it in football how terrible people are then all of a sudden they're good players and they're bad players so don't believe the hype is the best advice I've got that's a good one John, great place to finish and it's been brilliant to have you on thank you so much yes, Johnny Barnes Johnny Barnes great Johnny Barnes thanks thanks great Johnny Barnes anybody got any money for me? Thanks for listening and thanks to our partners, Arm Clothing.

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