Jordi Cruyff: Father’s Legacy, Life After Messi & Daughter’s Cancer Journey| Stick to Football EP 106

0:00Just before we get started, a quick thanks to our partners and clothing. We hope you enjoy the show.

0:33You've not seen it? No, I've not seen it. I've seen A Beautiful Life. I've only ever seen it, and it was the first time. Did you cry? Is this where he's walking through the snow? Yeah, yeah. Is he... Let me tell you remember what it was. And he's trying to... And everyone... Yeah, and he wished he hadn't kind of... Yeah, yeah. ...hadn't lived, basically, and... And look at his life if he hadn't. People weren't there. The first time I've ever seen it was last year, yeah. I've seen A Beautiful Life, the Italian act. You've seen that one, Ray? A beautiful... The one that acts a beautiful... He's in a concentration camp with his son.

1:06And, you know, it's about him trying to make his son think that it's a game. Oh, right. It's a game. The whole thing is a game. It's an old one. Yeah, it's a brilliant film. Won an Oscar for it. Yeah. A Beautiful Life. You should watch that. I went to the movies last week to see, I swear, you know, the kid with Tourette's is a true story. The kid up in Scotland. I read that. I read that. Yeah, I read that. I swear. Is that the one from years ago that was a TV show? Because he was Scottish. John's name was his name John this TV show years ago probably late 80s was called John's Not Man John's Not Man yeah yeah that could be yeah it's really good lovely movie sad awful have any of you seen that film here with Leonardo DiCaprio the new one oh not yet did you like it everyone's raving about it I was okay with it I liked it I liked that oh thanks you know DiCaprio I've had it aged Cheshire Walks yeah I've seen Gabby Logan.

2:03I had one on the other day and she looked good. Not that I'll ever look like her. I've got that in a round neck. I've got it in a round neck. I said that was the first thing you'd see. I just said out there... Who are they? A furberry. I got it from Cheshire Walks in the seal. It's nice. Bargain. I love it. I love it. You've gone for it. It's a film. Can you guess the film? I can't remember. So that's everyone been up to this week. Yeah.

2:36Is that a film or is that a film? In you come, Yordi. Film, film. Does anyone, can anybody? Come on, Yordi, in you come. You film? Be shy. You've got honey everywhere, Jim. Never been shy. Can't remember. I said I've been shy. Yordi. Thank you. How are you, bro? What? Nice to see you. You're like, off last week. Beside Roy. Yes! Yes! You give me a break. It's good. Apologise to me for all the grief you gave me over the years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Likewise. Likewise. He was the only one who told me once when he was angry, not a word back, and I actually kept quiet. No word back. First time in my life.

3:17First and last time in my life. Is that true? Yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah. What's up after the Coventry game?

3:25you just touched on coming to United so I'm sat in Marbella in a restaurant cheering Gito four weeks ago yeah and I'm on my own just sat there having some I actually had some fish and it went cold by the time we'd finished talking and you tap on my shoulder and then he starts talking to me about his story about what he's been up to and here we are you're on the show how long was that? four weeks ago four or five weeks ago yeah I caught him in Marbella nice He was eating alone, fish, and it's incredible because I didn't look at anything around. I was just sitting down with some people and I saw somebody with strong arms and eating like that.

4:06I don't know why. You were in there. Yeah, he was in there. He said he called you. He was in the restaurant. And I don't know how, just by, without seeing his face, I just knew it was him. Next to that strong guy was Gary.

4:22But amazing, yeah. So we just had a chat and, yeah. Amazing place, by the way. You have a good taste.

4:34He said, I'm leaving United before you. And I laughed. I said, that's impossible. We actually made a bet. But did he leave just to win the best? I doubt it. The shock of Messi leaving in middle August and not being anyone in return. People maybe are, you know, sometimes not really understanding how difficult the fair play really was. I'm immortal. My father is the immortal. You know, like, even if he's not here, but people still talk about him. Even when he was a player, he was a coach on the pitch. I remember Alonso coming in. He sort of gave a couple of points where he thought he could improve.

5:07And maybe a little bit like you, but you get a bit like, do the nasty thinking. You know what I mean? Football is a passion. But our blood, like your kids, that's just really what we have. and I think for me it was a clear decision like now it's this battle, this is the most important one Unbelievable

5:30Jordi, you've just obviously touched on I wasn't going to start there, I was going to start obviously with your upbringing you just mentioned there about sat next to Roy but when you first came to United I think you were one of the most and I'm going to say this in the right way because you were the most, I think, knowledgeable but opinionated people that I've ever seen at such a young age about how football should be? Yeah. I think probably sometimes a bit of a smart ass in that case, like not always. Sometimes when you just have to count to three, then probably has to do with the cultural Dutch part of Dutch.

6:05They say what they feel, baby. We taught that. Sometimes too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sometimes a bit too much. But I think even for the gaffer sometimes, you know, I would have a question probably that you wouldn't expect. And I think it's cultural also probably from home, the influence, you know, my father is a man with very strong opinions and contrary to what most people think. But I remember like coming to United and for myself, it was a cultural difference. Spain was, the football is different and back then even more. and I remember actually and I think about it many times also in the years after like in the beginning I used to see Giggs making a dribble and people would get excited but when Roy made a tackle people get like super excited in the defense you know and I used to think wow how is that possible because in Spain it's the other way around the dribbler gets the most things and the tackler even though it also changed now but the tackler is a bit different and I struggled to understand that in the beginning because I was taught also probably the Ajax youth, Barca youth, you know, the most difficult thing as a dribbler.

7:14But in the end, with the years going by, I got to respect Roy more and more. And even the day after, when you are trying to be a sport director or you're coaching, my first thing in my head is I always want to have a Roy Keane on my team because he has his character, but he pushes himself before he pushes the rest. He's very out-of-demanding and obviously demanding to the rest. And that made him a winner. And I do think he, in the beginning, I didn't see it or I didn't feel it that way. But in the end, I really felt he was the true leader of the team that had to push everyone. When you came to United, you saw definitely football a different way than we played.

7:56It was obvious. You could just see, obviously, we played against you in Barcelona in 94. You were playing for that Barcelona team that beat us 4-0. and you knew football a particular way. You came obviously to Manchester. Was it a struggle for you to think that football could be a different way? I think I struggled with the adaptation a lot. It's more physical, it's faster. In Spain it's more we have the ball, we control the game. And I think it was a big difference and I struggled a lot with the change. the cultural football change between Spain and England in general but also with Barcelona play and the United way was different and I really had to I think I struggled a lot probably that's the main reason that I was stubborn thinking okay Barcelona not because of the result but you always think when you play there you think it's the best club in the world probably the Man United players think the same about Man United and then you come and there's a huge cultural difference between the countries, absolutely.

9:01But I remember things that I didn't understand like from the gaffer, from Ferguson, in the sense of, I mean, now I see he was very modern in many things, but back then he would come to me and say, listen, get ready because in two weeks you're going to play. Like in three games you're going to play. And my answer, instead of saying, okay, I'll get ready, I would say, yeah, but what if the player on my place, he scores two hat-tricks. How are you going to bench him? And he would smile and say, that's my problem. But the fact is, I was thinking, you know, you play if you train well. Like if you do Monday, Tuesday, if you train bad, you're not going to play in the weekend.

9:41That's a bit how we're taught in the Dutch mentality, even the Spanish mentality. But he was just planning, like the team already three weeks ahead. Okay, this is going to be a lineup then. This is for this game, it's different. Then I need a different lineup. But I was the guy who would actually ask the kind of questions It's like, yeah, but how can you put somebody on the bench who scores two hat-tricks? Could we have been more helpful, Yardi? You know, when a player, you came into the environment and obviously you just mentioned it, you were obviously stubborn, your ways of looking at it. And we had, because it was a successful team, it was like, plug into what we're doing or you fall by the wayside.

10:12Instead of us embracing your ideas and going, do you know what, Yardi? And having kind of mature conversations. It was very much... But I think we were all stubborn, childish sometimes. Yeah, but you're making the point that you were setting your ways, but unfortunately we were kind of setting our ways as well. And we should have been embracing that a bit. But I had to adapt. I understand that, but we should maybe listen to players coming a bit more. I said that, Roy, when Jordi came over to speak at the restaurant and we were talking for probably about 20 minutes about my impression of Jordi back then, his impression of sort of me or maybe us.

10:45My eye of you was, fuck hell, you're over here. You're at Manchester United. We're winning things. You can do what we do. We're challenging, yeah. But he's seen football, obviously in Spain, under his dad, at Barcelona. And you can't say that. And I wish you actually said something similar. I said, I probably see football more from your side now and you see it more from our side. It's a combination of actually both. Yeah. Because you've also had the other taste, and you see the difficulty and the cultural differences. But I think when you sign in a place, you are the one who needs to adapt to other ideas.

11:16And I think it took me a long time to understand that. and that's just my own fault. And I must say, in terms of integration, the person who I think most helped us is Cantona, which is curious, Eric. If you don't know him, you think it's like there's a wall, you know, and he's difficult to get, but he was actually the one like picking us up from the hotel, bringing us to training, bringing us back to the hotel after training in the first weeks of when you're in a new country. And a lot of, you know, we used to have a lot of dinner and used to be very helpful towards our, you know, because I am Dutch, but in the end I'm actually more Mediterranean mentality than Dutch mentality.

11:56I lived only in Holland for six years and all my life. So I think he understood that, he felt that, and he was very good to me, like from picking me up everywhere, taking me everywhere, talking to me. And I think I was the first person who actually knew about his retirement because we made a bet. and he said, I'm leaving United before you and I laughed, I said, that's impossible, I'm not playing a minute so I'm sure I'm leaving before and we actually made a bet and he won, but he already had made his mind up that he was going to stop. Did he leave just to win the best? I doubt it, I doubt it. It wasn't a lot of money, no.

12:33I doubt it, we didn't bet that much, it wasn't worth it. Could I ask you a question? because when you were talking before about you were asking Ferguson questions, do you think this is like, for us as English players in the Premier League, we don't sort of maybe speak to the managers as much, maybe about tactical things, we almost, like the manager said this, we're doing it, we're committed, we're fighting, but maybe that was like something Rafa Benitez used to say about us when he come into that, that you could tell the English player to almost do anything and train, he'll do it. the day before the game right going to a you know 30 minute run and the English player do it just like the manager told me to whereas you mentioned about coming in and I remember Alonso coming in and Rafa Benitez said oh yeah I've had a good chat with Xabi Alonso and he's only 22 by the way he's already looked at our last game and he sort of gave a couple of points where he think we could improve and maybe a little bit like you but you're a bit like who the fuck is he thinking you know what I mean but that's just that's cultural difference Yeah, exactly where you're sort of brought up.

13:36We're just brought up. I feel maybe it's different now. If the manager says do something, you do it. Is that a fear factor from players who come in? You looked at the manager as... I always looked at the manager. Yeah, yeah, up here. Whereas maybe the foreigners go, no, he's just a coach. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to learn from him. You should be able to speak to him, surely. Yeah. Because I couldn't speak to George Graham like that. God, I'd be petrified. My situation was also that I was leaving Barcelona and I had a call from Real Madrid, which obviously, you know, first I thought, okay, you know, it was the old times, not with the phones nowadays, like they called home.

14:14And first I thought it was a joke. So, you know, I didn't really talk a lot. And then I thought, I'm not mentally ready for this step because it's just a not done step, especially when you're young, it's impossible. Then Atletico Madrid, who just won the league, which was interesting, I found, to go there. But then in the last minute, it was Ajax and Manchester United. And they came on a Sunday when Monday had to travel to Amsterdam to sign with Ajax. And they came on a Sunday with Ferguson and the CEO back then. He came to Barcelona at home. And yeah, I think he just gave me that feeling that a young player needs to feel.

14:54And when I looked at the squad and I saw all the young players there, I understood, okay, it's not just a story, but it's a fact. He's putting all the young players there. And that kind of changed my mind last minute to say, OK, let's go for this one. So I cancelled Ajax with Van Gaal to go to, which in that time they were really strong also in Europe. And then I went for United, especially because of the warm feeling he gave me. And it just purely convinced me. I had to cancel a few hours after the meeting. I said, Ajax, I'm not coming. I changed my mind. And then I came to Man United. So the kind of the talking thing we already had when it was like the convincing time mutually to, OK, let's go for this one.

15:36But for me, the fact that he had a lot of young players and giving them the chance for me, it was a way of, yeah, I felt it was the right step. Sorry, Gary, I'm just interested because of who your dad is. And it's interesting, Alex Ferguson is one of the biggest managers in the world. Obviously, your dad's one of the biggest figures in the world as well. and when you're maybe asking questions or difficult questions, I always think what would Ferguson be thinking is that you've been speaking to your dad. You know what I mean? Is that coming from, you know, a dad or not just one of the... Did Rafa nothing, but you and your dad?

16:07No, my dad. I think it's, I don't know, I think just had mutual respect. And my father actually, I think he always wanted to show respect by not appearing too much in Manchester. I mean, he would come for Christmas, for example, but he wouldn't come to many games because I think he didn't want to give any kind of presence pressure. You know, when he comes there and, hey, what's happening? No, I think he always just kept a bit on the side. I don't think they actually really ever spoke. You know, like what agents nowadays could do, like, hey, why is he not playing or that? I think my father just stepped away.

16:44What would them conversations with Alex Ferguson have been about? Were your frustrations like lack of patterns of play? because obviously being in Barcelona, I'm guessing it was very structured. I don't think my father would understand the Scottish accent anyways. No, but I'm seeing you as a player when you had, was it frustration of, did you want more patterns and structure at Man United? No, when you're a player and you're not playing, when you're young, the first thing you do is put the mirror to everybody else instead of turning it back and say, okay, what can I do better? And when years go by, you understand it's you.

17:19It's not the rest because the team was winning also. And I think now when I look back and I just see the players who were playing in that team, like you have Beckham and Giggs, okay, I just have to understand, I'm just a squad player. But when you're young, you don't see that. You just think you're, I don't know, you kind of live your own film and you think, yeah, I'm better. I don't understand why I'm not playing. Nowadays, I can smile about it because the reality is there. The statistics are there. And I was injured a lot, so that's also my own fault. I think I struggled a lot with the change of league.

17:52Spain being one way and England was... Is it a shock for players to come over to the physicality? I think now, little by little, Spanish football is also prepared. But still, even the stats of today. I mean, if I'm right, there's nine Champions League games, almost all played here in England, but there's eight Premier League wins against one Spanish win. So there is something different. I do want to see the stats when the English teams go to Spain. Then I want to see it also, because I think that will definitely change. But there is a clear fact. There is a difference between the two leagues at this moment.

18:27And it always had. Spain had control of the ball, more the technical side. And England was just, you know, every game was a different battle. But when you turned up for your first few sessions, you'd obviously prepare yourself, going, it's going to be physically harder. But do we still underestimate the challenge for players, even going back to that time, the challenges of playing? and even training. Training would be tough, wouldn't it? Or training sessions, you would have had the same... Can you remember what your first training session would have been like when you saw these people in the flesh?

18:56It'd be intense, wouldn't it? It was intense. But at the same time, I had also admiration for, I mean, Cantonites, you know, he's a special one. So just the fact of being with him and even watching him after trainings, you know, he would do his finishing on the chest and then volley it in the top corner. It was just unbelievable. like I already had that respect for the players I didn't bring the 4-0 of Barcelona in my time I just started scratch I didn't know a lot of players so yeah sometimes you get to feel them when you make a dribble they come in you fly a few meters in the air what happened here play on but I think it was a lesson but also tactical as you said before things are different and especially back then were different.

19:45We had a very clear style of playing and here the system was different and you need a lot of character to win games here. In Spain, 30 years ago, when you had a good team with talent, then you would win because you were better. But here being better doesn't mean you're going to win games. You need to be, you know, it's tough. You need a lot of winners in a team and you need the, you know, kind of stability that somebody doesn't play well two games and two bad games. You can't win titles like that. And I think the squad was there. Even with Scolese, it was another one that I was just, you know, I just couldn't believe how good he was and how humble he was.

20:22I remember there was a week that he scored on a Sunday, on a Wednesday, and again, like on a Saturday. In one week, three games, he scored like six or seven goals. And he came the next day as if nothing happened. And I think I even made a joke with him saying, wow, in Spain, we would have to do some, you know, make the door a little bit bigger. because with the ego, you wouldn't fit in the door. But Scolzi's small anyway. But Scolzi was one of the players that he could, he was ankle scratcher. Like when you would just pass the ball, he would always come one split second to eight and just give you his autograph in your ankle.

21:02I mean, he was great with the ball, but he was also competitive. You leave his foot there. You had to pass the ball and jump quick. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Jordi, take us back. Why were you leaving Barcelona to start with? My father was a strong character, tough character, especially with the board members. He was always super sweet with the workers, the daily ones. But with board members, he was struggling. And the moment he kind of left, he got sacked two, three games before the end of the season. And knowing Barcelona, what kind of club it is, I just knew it's going to be, you know, like a cleaning thing.

21:48And I didn't want to be part of it because in the end, if they can't touch him, they're going to touch you. I made my debut with the national team in Holland those days, also with the Netherlands and played the Euros. But I already knew it was time to go. And my father, I must say, I was a bit angry at him at moments because they always wanted, I was three years already in the first team or two and a half. And they wanted to give me the first team contract. And my father said, no, he's going to keep a second team contract. So basically, because he said, that's what I was angry about. He said, yeah, well, why is this?

22:23And now he said, I'm protecting you because one day they will want to use it and they cannot use it. And the advantage was my buyout clause was then less than half. and he probably already understood that if he was going to have a fight and he was a strong character, then he probably knew, OK, then if he's stuck, they'll hurt him. So he's not going to earn nothing for two and a half years in the first team or hardly anything, but he's going to decide his own future. That's brilliant. What was your dad's fight at that time when he was leaving? Well, we had a lot. I don't know. There's so many, but he always had a strong character.

23:02He didn't like board members to give any opinion about football. He used to say, if I have a legal issue, I go to a lawyer. If I have a medical issue, I go to a doctor. You're not a football person, so don't give an opinion about football. And he was very strong at that. He used to have a lot of media fights with presidents of the club. So to keep them away from all the football side. That was his character. And he could do it because he had the strength and the power to do it. Take us back to your youth, because your dad is an icon. He's literally up there with Pele, Maradona, the greatest names that have ever played football.

23:39What's that like? When did you first recognise that your dad is who he is? What was he like as a parent? Was he always missing because of working and playing? How was that? I remember in the beginning you would see people getting excited when they saw him. and it was other days there was no phones with pictures and all that and they would come with a piece of paper and this and that and then I was thinking okay what do they want with this piece of paper all the time and then you understood the admiration they had for him all ages it was something like crazy almost but he was always strict with us, with the kids if you do bed in school he would take you off football for a month like he was very demanding about having a plan b in your life like don't think just because you want to be a football player doesn't mean you're going to be one you need to study so he pushed me a lot to even go to university when i was already in the first in barcelona to do business management and in the university there and always to study he was very strict if we would say uh daddy can i have uh i don't know uh back then was back then it was pesetas can i have a few euros for euros for this and that he said yeah first you clean my motorcycle and the car and then I'll give you something so you would never get anything just by that he was very demanding behavior school my mother obviously at home was the boss because he had to travel a lot of times as well but what I most admire about him he never brought football home he never brought stress home he lost the final against Milan 4-0 the Champions League final came home and you didn't notice anything.

25:20Like you heard the key, come inside, smiling. How are you? How was your school? This and that. Never brought any kind of emotion home. And when you get a bit older, and we're not capable of that. I mean, when you have a bad result, your family suffers. I mean, that's just the way it is. And you have a sleepless night and, you know, why is this and that. He never had that. He never brought any football emotion, the negative ones, never home. He's just another person. That's amazing. Yeah, I've never seen that with anyone. What was the best piece of advice that he would have given you? Well, he gave a lot.

25:56Not that I always listen. Can you imagine? No, I think he, just in general, not even football, he always said the logical things. He never pushed us into any religious things. I mean, he did believe in something, but he always said, treat people how you want to be treated and live and let live, which also has a bit of a Dutch mentality in it. But he never really gave clear advice, even my own football decisions, if I wanted to go there or do this. He was just interested, but he never told me, oh, you should do this or that. He always was a free mind, always very free. Best advice, when I came up to the first team to start to train, he said, it's difficult to translate, but whatever you see or you hear, you don't know.

26:46In other words, he would never want to know anything from a dressing room that I could have heard. He never wanted me to tell him. He didn't want that. He always said, separate. I don't bring football home. We're not going to talk about a player who complained. He didn't want to know that. He probably saw it himself. But he never wanted to mix things at home. He never touched football. He just mentioned Pele and Maradona. and I think didn't we do a show a few months ago and we were talking about who's almost the biggest figure in football and I think most of us agreed was your dad because he's not just been on the level of them as players he's actually then been one of the greatest managers and obviously when you were coming on and you must get this a lot whether it's a good thing or a bad thing when you're coming on the fascination with your dad and I'm absolutely like I met him once at the World Cup and I always think I'd love to have just spoke to him for another half an hour or an hour.

27:42You know, I got like five minutes with him at a hotel. I played golf with him in France. Yeah, but it's just, when you, I follow him on the social media. He's still got his account or the Cruyff account and they post something on the 14th of every month. Yeah, every 14th. Yeah. And there's always like a quote of your dad and it's always like, you feel like you're still, you think, wow, but he's said that years and years and he's so far ahead of everybody in the game at that stage and it was almost like people talk about a coach on the pitch as a player and there's a few players who maybe have that label but I don't think anybody could have ever been more a coach on the pitch than probably your dad when he was sort of playing and just listening to it it just fascinates me I must say I've seen like they're making out a documentary which will be out before the summer and I've seen images that I've never seen before you know and it of course it touches you because it's your father But then you see already a little kid, I think 16, 17, already tell 30-year-olds what to do on the pitch.

28:48I don't know how they would take that at halftime, like, hey, little one, one of those. But he was actually, even when he was a player, he was a coach on the pitch. And he had a strong personality, character. So he would just go for it. Did that come from his parents, Jordi? Were his parents like that? Well, his father died when he was, I think, like 11 or 12 years old. I think born after the Second World War with difficulties. When his father died, then they had to sell. They had like a vegetable kind of shop. But obviously when the father died, they were done. Then his mother, like my grandmother, had to clean the dressing rooms and the toilets in Ajax, you know, to make a living.

29:37And I think that really motivated him also. And the moment he signed the contract, the first thing he said, Mom, you're out of here. You're not going to clean nothing anymore. I'm going to take care of you now. And I think the difficulties of after Second World War, I think that really affected his mindset. He had to succeed to help his family. And I think that really helped him a lot. But I think also the natural talent is just something he was born with. He had a character. and yes, I think he probably was not the easiest one in the dressing room because when a young kid is telling somebody what to do...

30:13Yeah, but that would make him great, doesn't it? Yeah, that's part of the greatness. But he left Ajax because there was a moment as a player, that's when he went to Barcelona because there was a moment, maybe it was too intensive, some players would get fed up and then they made a new vote for who was going to be the captain. He lost it by one and then he said, I'm gone. Wow. And then Ajax tried to sell him to Real Madrid. And then he told Ajax, don't waste your time. I decide where I'm going to play. And I'm going to go to Barcelona, which is the opposite of Real Madrid. So he was, you know, depend who you ask, he's an idol.

30:46But the other side, I will say he was a tough, difficult character. But the truth is, I do understand as a son, of course, it's not easy. You know, yeah, you compliment your father as a sport person. I prefer other people to give their opinions. But I do think he made, you know, he did make an impact both as a player but also as a coach. Because he did some, you know, some crazy things until he was considered a genius. I mean, the line between being a genius and being crazy, it's a very thin line. The moment you win, you become a genius. And the fact that coaches like Pep Guardiola, you know, they still mention him every time.

31:26It just keeps things alive, you know. I do remember my father being one of the first to play with a false number nine, to play with a goalkeeper as if he was a defender and to build up. For him, it was more important to build up than actually stopping the ball. Where would he get them ideas from? It's mad. It must have been from the coach. I really don't understand. I remember actually going in the 80s to Barcelona as a coach and telling the central defenders. and central defenders back then in Spain were just killers, you know, like we just destroy the striker, that's our job, and keep him fly five meters.

32:05That's it. Yeah, exactly. And then he had a team talk, and he said, what's the striker good at? And in Spanish there's a word that's called to unmark yourself. I don't know if that in English makes sense, like when you're being marked and you kind of can get away. I don't know what words you can use. Yeah, just make a run, really. Yeah, like get away from marking. So he said to the defenders, he said, and it was a striker for Letico Madrid, he said, what is his strong point? Yeah, he's very good in unmarking himself. He said, perfect, we're not going to mark him. And everybody was thinking he probably had a wine or a drink or something.

32:41Like, what do you mean? We're not going to mark him. He's the best player of the team. He said, he's used to using his body and I mark him. So let's stay away from him and let's see what he can do with the ball. And saying that in the 80s to Spanish defenders, it's like when you receive that, you must be thinking, okay, this guy is crazy. But then they understood the logic because it sounds logic with the years. But back then, it was just, I suppose, as a player, it was hard to be under him. It would have been really hard because he really would ask things that other coaches would never ask. That takes courage, doesn't it?

33:15There's bravery to that. But that was him. He was like that. He just had this character and he would go for it and he wouldn't doubt. And he would never show doubt. even when you lose a game 6-2, you know, and the media would be waiting and saying, okay, this disaster, he said, no, thanks to this game, we're going to win, we're going to be champions, we're going to win the league. Pep says stuff about when he gets beaten. But the thing was, they didn't lose any game anymore and they won the league. Like, I think 20 games in a row, unbeaten, and they won the league. But of course, you're just saying that to calm the media down or to just take the tension away that people would say, this guy is crazy, and not criticise the players.

33:54So maybe that was his effect. But he actually managed to win that league without losing. So then he's considered a genius. Did he start to step the centre-half defender in as well? You know what Pep was with John Storch? Yeah, he had to go forward and to put wingers as full-backs. And he used to do all these things. And the number nine who comes in and then have the wingers make the run in the space. He used to do a lot of these things. So do you think Pep's took some of that stuff into Fancy now? I think Pep always says it, that there's a lot of things that he took with him. Of course, Pep modernised because football changes.

34:31And if you have success, it's your own success. So the credits go to him. But I do think he took a lot of things because he was actually that player that played in front of the defence with the 360. He was not fast or aggressive. He was not a man marker, but he was a master of angles. That was Pep's strength. And I remember also the story with Pep. When my father came to Barcelona, he said, who are the best players? And they said, oh, we have a young one. It's Guardiola. So he went to see the under-18s and he wasn't even on the bench. And he said, but if you're saying he's the best, why is he not playing?

35:08No, because physically he's not good enough. So then my father, yeah, that's the rebelness he had. He said, okay, first team. and even if he's not playing the youth first team and you know kind of brought him to where he goes. The manager's amazing. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. The Super 6 rollover is officially in town. Every Saturday in December the jackpot is rolling over if it isn't won. It's completely free to play, just predict six scores this weekend and the money could be yours. So if you fancy landing the rollover jackpot get your super six picks in before 3pm on Saturday for a chance to win 18 plus TNCs apply This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arn Clothing Just going back to that game that you beat us 4-0 you were left wing Yeah I think it was Romario up front Yeah and Stoich Cup Stoich Cup on the right You're bringing up nightmares here for me Yeah I was sat on the bench But you guys had a strange line-up because of the rules We did we did that's a good point you couldn't have foreigners because when we had like an analyst of the opponents and Dutch friend of my father like close and he said when he talked about the goalkeeper and he said this one is going to play I remember all the players almost smiling like laughing like not believing it like okay how's this going to be but it was because of those rules that you had to play with others I remember that night I was on the bench and to be fair I think Nicky started because of the rules.

36:42And I think, or Nicky came on, I can't remember. But I remember thinking, this is a different level of thing that I've ever seen. I've never seen anything like this. I have to say, Barcelona and Real Madrid throughout my career when you saw them play, felt mighty. They took you to a place very uncomfortable. But I remember you standing and not moving on the high on the left and Stoichkov high on the right and then Romario obviously in that position where he just drifted in a little bit. And I'd never seen people be so disciplined in terms of their positions. And that's, You think about Pep when he first came to City.

37:13It's quite a bit different now, but that full split. Making the pitch as big as I've ever seen a football pitch. Your dad's one of the architects of the game. Where did he get that from? Where's all that come from, that idea of the game? I think he had it from a young age. I'm not sure. I've read something a couple of years ago where they said Dutch coaches and players would make the most of the space because Holland is a small country and they brought that on to make the pitch a bit bigger. I don't know if that's true or whatever. I think also the influence of Riener Schmichels also had something to do with that.

37:46I mean, he was like my father didn't have a father anymore. So he did fill up something. So I think they spoke a lot about football. But I just think I'm a mortal. My father is the immortal, you know, like even if he's not here. But people still talk about him. I just come do things, go and somebody else steps in. But he's a different one. And I think people who have just this genius thing. But it's simple as well, isn't it? You're on about making the pitch bigger. Angles, the right angle. You see the Barcelona little triangles where you think you've got players and then you go, fuck. I think I've touched the ball twice that night.

38:23And that was in the warm-up. But it's true. No, it was. But it's true. Like wide to make the pitch as open possible so there's more space to go through. And obviously when you don't have the ball, then you have to go in to make it more small. But he was very, very disciplined on you have to be there and the players would just obviously follow the rules. That's how it was. But all these things, like a lot of people will still talk about him playing 4-3-3. But my father was not a 4-3-3. He would also play like three diamond formation in midfield and then three up front. But the incredible thing was he would put a midfielder on the right back.

39:04He would put a left winger on the left back. He would put Koeman, who was not, you know, like a typical central defender. And he would put Guardiola in front. Like lineups that you think, wow, when I look at those lineups today, I really think it's crazy, you know, it's bizarre. But he had that. He just had the... You mentioned Koeman. You'd have moments in the game, you'd go, let Koeman have it. You know, he's got the back and he's looking. Strike would come. Stoich would make a run. Koeman have it, yeah. And he had a fantastic pass. He could pass it. Over 60 yards, yeah, yeah. He would just almost put it on your chest.

39:35So, yeah, I think my father was a mix of courage, stubbornness, believing in himself, always doing the opposite from what people would expect. And I think he was, in his way, a genius. I just think he was different. What was his team talk like before a game? Were they similar or what would his team talk be? Compare it to, say, Sir Alex Ferguson when he came to United. He would sometimes change a few things at the back, depending on how many attackers the opponent had. If the opponent had one attacker, he didn't want three at the back. So he would find a way, and that's why he would play certain players that were right back but would always be a little bit inside and almost midfielders.

40:20So he would always... Wouldn't like Amor and Emody? he just wanted to control dominate to win his team talks were mostly about ourselves like not adapting a lot to the opponent only thing in defense not to have too many players at back because then he would say then I miss players in the midfield and up front so he would always try to do things just to have organization at the back just two against one or three against two or four against three and then up front just you know the principles like Pep and Barcelona just outnumber the opposition in certain areas. But Barcelona, I think, had more movement than Pep because I think there was a lot more, obviously, false nine coming in, running behind.

41:00I feel like with Man City, they're very structured. It was a different league, wasn't it? Because Stoichkov, of course, left-footed on the right. Right, yeah. And he was very good in making the runs behind his face, so you don't want him to always be on the line. And he was a good finisher. How good was he, by the way? So he would make that run inside a lot. and then you had a full back who would fill up the space maybe on the but again you already remember the English players would be generally used to playing against wingers left footed you know what I mean but then all of a sudden when players are playing on the opposite side you're like what's he doing it's confusion obviously coming into midfield whose man is it and obviously these players then had quality as well the players you mentioned there Romario I mean the 4-0 we can talk about everything but I'm going to blame Brucey and Pally for that Romario's the best player I've ever played against I think Yeah, I played for me.

41:50What I like about Romario was we were like in the second team and sometimes on a Wednesday then they needed to do a certain type of training and then four or five players from the youth would just go up. And then you had this five against five or something and Romario would always say give me the kids. And he would take us apart and he would say when I ask the ball you give it immediately in my foot. If it's one meter on the side I'm not going to move and run like crazy I'm not going to run you four are going to run and I'll do the rest we would win the games like 6-4 he would score so it's like a five against five thing he would score like five of the six goals we would run like crazy and we would win and that was Romário imagine how good he was that he could actually just be super clear if he goes there I'm not going to move goes there I'm not going to move that's a difficult one but I I do have a special admiration for Romario.

42:50I think I always, I don't know why, just a small guy. How good can he be? Did your dad love him as well as a player? Yeah. And I think they had a lot of, you know, back then the man management was a bit different also. It's not as now, you know. Like back then, Romario, for example, would have, the story he has to confirm it one day, which I think he already did sometimes. but there's always new details or details forgot. But he would make some, like a player would come with him and said, coach, if I score two goals, can I go to what they do in Brazil? Brazil carnival. The carnival, this and that.

43:28He said, yeah, of course, this and that. Then he would score at halftime. He would score 2-0. And he would say, hey, I'm going now because... It's not true. It's a true story. He has to confirm that there is one true story that's for sure that he made a bet with Teutov that they used to bet. But it's a motivational bet. It's not for the money. Basically, to motivate. The superstars, you can't treat them like just anyone. You motivate them with, you know, these kind of funny bets. And he had a bet with Risto. So Risto said, if I score two goals, this. He said, okay, let's bet. So Risto scored one goal.

44:07And a few minutes in the second half, he took them off. And he said, hey, by the way, you lost the bet. nowadays you would go, I mean, it's impossible. But back then it was, I don't know, it was different times. But he always had a very good relation also with those players, with the difficult characters, with the favourites of my father. But he was clever, he'd give them a bit of leeway as well. Yeah, he knew how to, I mean, you can't, the special players, they don't follow the rules, the A, B, C, D, you know, you need to challenge them in a different way. And my father was also that kind of player, so I think he understood them.

44:39Final question on you. If he looked at the modern game today, what would he not like, knowing him as you do? I think he would... Like nowadays, things change a bit. Before, if you controlled the midfield, you would kind of control the game in a way. Nowadays, it's a lot of efficiency in attack. And, you know, being, how do you say it in English, contundente, like being tough in the back. like the clean sheet and being efficient in attacking. The two areas, the two boxes are now the big thing. He didn't like that. He was midfield. He used to think, okay, if we win the war in midfield, we control the game.

45:23I want the possession. If I have the ball, they cannot score. That was always one of his favourite, the A of his alphabet or the A of his book. If I have the ball, the opponent cannot score. So I think probably he sees that there's a lot of transitions. I think Pep's changed that a little bit. I don't think he's obsessed with having 60, 70 % possessions. But you have to modernise. Maybe in 10 years things will go back like it was before. Maybe not. But I think Pep needs to go forward. But I think my father would probably still try to find a different way to beat the transitional style and still try to find a way in which if I have the ball, I dominate the situation.

46:04This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Throw it forward to 2021 and you get made the sporting director of Barcelona, which must be like a pinnacle moment for you. But Messi leaves a month after you joined? No, actually a month before. A month before you joined. Don't put me in that one. I was there. Talk to me about the post-Messi Barcelona and coming in. And obviously at the time there were huge financial issues at the club as well. So what was that like? Well, I think it's difficult, especially for Koeman, because he was the coach back then. And you couldn't sign any player.

46:45I mean, the financial fair play in Spain just means you are stuck if you're stuck. If you have losses, tough luck, you cannot spend. So you really had to be kind of creative. But I came in September when the transfer market, that one was closed because I was on the contract in China. and I had a clause that I could only leave after nine months, which was basically September. It was also COVID time. I didn't see my kids for nine months. So I just felt I cannot. Also the previous board, they were calling, but I felt, okay, if there's elections in one year, then I don't think it's ethically correct to sign for three years because Spain works like that.

47:22A new president comes, brings his own people. So when Laporta came in, then I knew it was a question of time. And eventually we agreed on that. I think it was an emotional call I also had to answer, even though I was coaching like I think three, four years before that. But I just felt it's a call I had to answer, an emotional thing. Then you come there and you see the real situation. Messi is gone, couldn't bring hardly any players in. It was a very difficult time. And then also comes the moment that you have a lot of players that are legends that I admired, like everybody admires. and they're in their 30s, 34, 33, 35.

48:06And when you put three or four together with the ball, amazing. But we suffered a lot in transition. So we had a lot of problems in Europe. When we lost the ball, then immediately that's it. We couldn't control the game. So then it was a moment that, okay, we need to modernize some concepts and sign players. But certain kind of players. And I remember there was a moment we wanted a winger and we had to choose between Rafinha and Anthony. And when you have a fair play issue, of course, Anthony in the end went for much more money than anybody expected. But we really had to make choices based on, OK, if he succeeded in the Premier League and things go wrong, we'll always get our money back.

48:50So we will always be able to send him to the Premier League. And Rafinha, you decided... You looked at Anthony closely. We looked at both, basically. But Anthony we like because it's the Spanish. I mean, now he's in Betis and he's doing a really good job. Like he's a special player. But back then we were thinking if we signed a player from Holland and things go wrong, you'll never get your money back. And when you have a fair play issue, you have to calculate all the risks. Not just think he's going to succeed, but you need to think, okay, if he doesn't succeed, how can we solve it? So in a lot of situations, we were actually almost obliged to look always at the English market.

49:24I mean, we went for Alba Menang, who I don't know the rumors or the stories that came out of England. But for us, he was a fantastic professional, always smiling, working hard. Like, I don't understand what, but for us, he was a fantastic signing. We also went for, for example, Christensen, who was also a free agent. We went for, I think it was Gundogan at the time, also a free agent. There's quite a, there's a few more. but we always went to markets that were physically prepared Premier League obviously you get a player from Premier League you know he physically can compete so Spain is not a problem for him and we really looked at the British market for the financial fair play reasons just to limit risks and to take players who are ready like normally a striker in January hasn't been playing like Aubameyang he needs a month to adapt he didn't even need five minutes the guy was so happy to be there and he took the opportunity and in six months I think he broke a lot of records plus scoring goals in Madrid.

50:26You know, he went 4-0 there in their stadium and he scores goals. Then you know as a player you already fulfill the dream of all the fans. I mean, that game is always special in Spain. But I just think we had to really calculate a lot of things and if you look at the 10 defenders Barcelona have now, we only paid a transfer for one. That's Koundé. All the others are either free transfers or homegrown players. and we only spend money on midfielders and attackers. Obviously, they spent a lot of money, didn't they, I think, obviously, before you got there. How do those finance... And then they started selling things, like their rights.

51:00How can that happen at such a huge club? Yeah, I think the COVID hurt a lot because normally a stadium of 100-something thousand people, it's a big income. and probably very overpaid, like over high contracts. There was a lot of huge contracts there, which in a way is normal. You know, you have the best player, which was Messi. And then the others, when they see a big difference, they also want to get a bit closer. Everybody understands you cannot get to that stage. But Messi was also your kind of club identity. He was your selling. You know, you would make money on Messi, not only on the pitch, but also off the pitch.

51:42I think just things got a bit out of control. And then you have big contracts, plus you're a club that nobody wants to leave. Players never want to leave. So you need to convince them to go or you need to tell an idol who's won everything that you can only dream of and then tell them at the age of 30-something that, listen, it's time to go. You don't give it anymore. What were the toughest conversations you had? Yeah, I had a few of those without getting really in detail. But I, yeah. And just say it like this. Listen, you've done everything that I could only dream of. I never achieved it. You've achieved it.

52:15So you have my respect. But today is today. And we cannot anymore. And, you know, don't, like, think about if you really want to sit on the bench in Barcelona when you've been such an idol. And to teleplay that, it's quite tough. And the first reaction, of course, is anger. Because when players are in their 30s, they never agree with that. They still think they're... They feel like they're getting rejected. It feels like rejection. Was that the most difficult thing about being a sport? Yeah, I think so. Because the fun thing is fun news. But the sad news, you also have to do that job. But the funny thing is that exactly those players are the ones who, like a few days after, they said, listen, I thank you for the conversation.

53:02You know, when they kind of went through the system, they cleaned up a bit and they understood. And even nowadays, a good relation. Like the players you actually had to give the worst news in their career, that it's time to go. And they're the ones who are the most friendly. Like still with me, if I find them on the street, they're still amazing. Of course, I didn't work alone. In the end, you do everything with a coach. For Xavi, also very difficult. To tell a teammate, it's time to go. That's also very difficult. You think it's easy, but it's not. It's very difficult. And we had a financial fair play, like CEO also, and we always used to work, the three of us.

53:37So the decisions, the good and the bad is always together. And Xavi, as a coach? I think Barcelona is a very difficult club. And when things go wrong, like your parents live there, your kids live there, social media, it's a tough run nowadays. Even for Xavi, the hero that he is. I think people maybe are sometimes not really understanding how difficult the fair play really was. and Barcelona, people always think you need to win anyways. And he did win the league. And the second year, I was already not there. I left when we won the league. I thought I'd done my thing. And I think it was difficult, but with time, people will always appreciate that he went through a very difficult period, like the same as Koeman.

54:26I mean, post-Messi, the shock of Messi leaving in middle August and not bringing anyone in return and giving young players like Pedri a chance, I mean, or Gabi or all these young players a chance, I mean, that takes courage and you have to give them credit for that. But sometimes in football, we forget that. We only look at results and we forget and now we enjoy and we only give compliments here. But there has been a process, especially young players at Barcelona. It's a process. There has to be one who's the first one who has the courage to give them a chance. And thanks to those decisions, today they have results.

55:01and I don't forget that. I see, I know the difficulties that Koeman had. I know the difficulties that Xavi had. And the fair play thing is something that I still don't think people really understood how tough those rules are in Spain. And Spain is always a bit angry with England because, you know, here it's, you can do everything. I think now there's also some rules coming, but Spain, it's been extremely tough. Like even there was an owner, I think a Saudi who bought the team in the second division. And he spoke to La Liga and he said, I want to do this and that. And La Liga said, no, you're not allowed.

55:37He said, but I have the money. He said, yeah, but you're not allowed. We have financial control and depending on the numbers of the club, this is what you're allowed to spend. And so imagine a Saudi saying, I want to go all the way, not allowed. So it's tough. I mean, that's the financial side which has been tough for Barcelona. but Xavi, I think, made a quote that he felt that some of the sort of Cruyff-Barcelona way of playing was starting to be eroded from the club. Is that something you've seen as well? No. Can Barcelona ever change that way of playing? No. I don't think they will ever accept any coach who wants to play with the win-backs.

56:16They will never accept it. You'll be out before you start. It's not a 4-3-3 because now they're playing a 4-2-3-1. I played win-backs in Valencia for a couple of days. But I got out, I was out as well. That's what it was. But Valencia, there's some clubs that are, you know, you can change certain patterns. You can't change at Barcelona. But Barcelona, they will only take coaches who will do something similar to what they always had. And, I mean, the whole youth. And Ajax is the same. Ajax is the same. I think Ajax is also the same. It's very, like, one way, you know. And, of course, a coach will, in the last 20 minutes, if you need to change a bit, you can do it.

57:01But your identity, you cannot negotiate that. I mean, you've played for Manchester United, and we had a very clear identity that I think for 20-odd years. And going back to the 60s with the wide players, that's the one thing that I wish United hadn't changed in these last 10 years. They've still brought the young players through. But just keep the same style of play, the same way of play. because if you're losing, at least you've got your identity. You lose your identity, you've lost everything. What I, of course, I always look at United. I think you always look at the teams where you've been and, you know, of course, when things don't work out, it's easy to give an opinion and to say things went wrong.

57:40But I love strategy. Like, I'm always studying a strategy. And when I have, in November, I have a squad that's built to play a certain way with the back four. and then you bring in November a coach who's done a fantastic job in this other club, but he comes here and he wants to change his way of playing, sometimes the squad and what he wants, it doesn't go together. And in November, it's not going to work out. Like you will need one or two transfer periods to kind of change that a bit, you know. And so to put him there when the squad, it's not really made for his way of playing, it's a risk. You know, and then you have a bad season and the summer, okay, what are you going to do?

58:19But does that get organised in the interview process? But I don't know who makes an interview. I think if you're... But there's an interview process, just common sense. If a manager's coming and going, listen, obviously you might tweak it, but don't be changing drastically. The thing is, who asks the questions? Well, I'm always intrigued. I always say what happens in the interview. Yeah, I don't know what happens. In Spain, you have a sport director kind of who, of course, has to give information upstairs. But he also needs to know that, okay, this is the squad. we have and we're not going to change 50 % of the players because wingbacks probably as you know normally they are specialized in going back and forth but if they're in a back four sometimes they're not good enough to be a pure defender and sometimes they're not good enough to be a pure winger you know they're middle way so if you go that way and things go wrong after one half year and you bring back a coach who's a back four it's a lot of transfers again you have to make so there is a lot of strategic things that i don't know like i don't know their process but i like sport director because i like strategy a lot and i came to do already many years ago to my own conclusion that just by signing good players doesn't mean you have a good team it's about balance and finding to create a squad of balance it's that's a different story and to understand how the coach wants to play and what kind of squad you need it's something different i don't think it's intelligence it's also intuition you know you just feel it i don't know why i i always have that do you enjoy that do you enjoy that um i do enjoy it um but i just like football in general i mean i also coached for some years uh that was actually what i was doing but when barcelona gave the call i just felt it's a phone i have to answer i have to do it in a difficult moment yeah and I but I didn't want to do it long term that's why I just signed one year one year one year and they were saying why don't you sign three four years I said no I just year by year we'll see how it goes because I was actually quite open to go back to coaching again because I also enjoyed that did you want to go into management or did that not cross your mind um I was doing both sport director but also coaching even though not in Europe but in the moment of China in the good years of China, there were some good coaches there by the way and also the players would come from big leagues.

1:00:42It was like the jackpot place in a way. So I was there for three years, two different clubs and I really enjoyed that. So I'm open, I can't really say I want to go left or right. I'm open and destiny decides, I believe in that. When we met a few weeks ago in Chiringuito, obviously we were talking for about 20-25 minutes we talked about football and your time at United and how we saw each other at that time but also I said what have you been doing for the last couple of years and it was a bit of a mystery yeah and you said that um yeah no one had known about what was happening in your life and what happened with your family yeah well I was in in Barcelona uh I decided we won the league I waited for the next day I already planned it before but I waited for the next day to uh after win the league to go to president, say, listen, I feel that's it.

1:01:34I've done my part. We won the league. That's it. We renewed the squad. Then I was actually talking to clubs, also some nice clubs and also in Europe to go back to coaching again. And then one of those days, then, you know, you hear probably, I think, the most difficult moment in life and that you hear daughter has cancer. and yeah then you need to make decisions like we in football we're always we think football is everything you know and uh you know we complain we have a bad mood happy mood when we win all these things and we think it's the biggest thing in the world but then you get a slap in the face of the reality and i must say um i have huge admiration for like now i see things in a different way that i used to see um for example when i heard scolzy the way he opened up yeah we knew about it i mean we all knew a little bit difficult situation but when he talks about it i think he really he he helps a lot of people even without knowing it you know when i i had that for example luisa rique my daughter had the same kind of cancer as as his daughter and his strength, the way he talks about it, the way he tries to live on with it, I admire that so much.

1:02:57Even to point that last year when it was the Champions League semi-final, I think it was Arsenal-Paris-Sin-Germain, I flew to London and just to sit with him half an hour and to thank him for everything he's done for me, even if he didn't know, even though he did know, but you know, just to thank him for the power he gave. Because I think as a father, it's tough. Did you speak to him a lot? No, only after when everything was okay and I felt you know, I think when it happens or you're a person who can talk with others or you live in a cave I'm more a caveman I think in moments like that So you just decided not to take any roles for the next 18 months?

1:03:36No, for me football I didn't even see a game for more than a year I would watch five minutes, turn it off and my head was not for that my head was just to be there with my daughter, you know, an operation, a bone, put titanium, chemotherapy, you know, all this always a bit, you know, because in your head, you have Luis Enrique's situation. I have another friend who was also a football player, lost his daughter with cancer. My father passed away. But with my father, I'm in peace, you know. For me, he lived five lives and he enjoyed every single bit. He never suffered. For me, that's the right, like the normal order from you know from grandfather son you know grandfather father son and downwards that's the normal order the other thing i don't have peace with it so i think i also was uh like in a way very angry with the world like this is not fair this shouldn't go like this it has to go to me not to her but then i you know then there's a moment you have to like wake up a bit and say i cannot complain because she's here.

1:04:43And then I see others who lost a daughter. And, you know, who am I to be angry? I cannot be angry. I need to be thankful, which is probably the point I am already now for a while. But it took me a long time. Yeah. It took me a long time. And 24-7 you have to be strong because your daughter needs to see you're strong. You cannot show weakness. And, yeah, you need to be positive. and strong, difficult. For me, it was, you can already see it, I mean, for me, it was, I think, the most difficult, like, challenging year in my life. Yeah. And I think we always say for guys that they are the ones that are expected to always be strong.

1:05:27Like, that must be the worst news you can get, but it is like the man can't be seen to be upset or cry, but it is okay to obviously be sad. Yeah, but in front of her, you know, you have to be strong because she needs to also be positive and believe, you know, and you need to be... Maybe, let's be honest, she's probably stronger than I am. So, OK, but still in my head... Shall we ask her? Shall we ask her, Yordi, and bring her in? You can ask her. Denai, you come in, please. Denai, come. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Hi. Nice to meet you. Hi, nice to meet you.

1:06:06All right. OK. So how are you now? I'm very good and healthy, which is the most important. Don't cry. Don't cry. Because then I cry too. You should just go outside. You've done really well. I'm doing well. I'm very happy. And how was it at the time with each other? Obviously, how important was it that... Oh, my God. Maybe it's better if I go. This is the good time now, Georgie. I think we lived the experience a little different. I think I was just going with everything a little bit with the flow and he was very stressed out. And I think he wanted to make all the choices and I wanted to make the choices.

1:06:48So we would argue sometimes about what I wanted to do or what I could do. And he was very strict. And I also had to balance chemotherapy and physio for my leg because I had to learn to rewalk and everything. because I do have a transplant and metal and screws. So, you know, he was, as a football player, he was making me do physio twice a day. Not me, like with a physio. No, no, obviously, but he was pressuring me so much and he was treating me a bit like a football player. Yeah, and discipline. Like there was a Kimio, we had a huge argument. She wanted to delay it for two weeks. And I was like, no, like you can't delay this for two weeks.

1:07:31come on this is a serious like were they the choices that you're talking about yeah yeah i think that was our main argument everyone got involved just because i wanted to see someone and uh he didn't i know i also wanted to be good for christmas i struggled a lot during my chemos i would not eat for nine days and i was vomiting every 15 minutes so i think i just wanted to be good for Christmas and be with my family. And he was not happy that I wasn't trying to delay my chemo. But I felt like it was important to be present. And also it was my sister's birthday and I didn't want to just, you know, be in the dinner table and not being able to eat and having to rest.

1:08:13So I did end up delaying the chemo, which was a big scandal. But I did talk to my oncologist and he was okay with my decision so i think i felt good and also he was telling me that i was going to do an extra uh session and i was telling him that's not gonna happen but i had to push i mean you know like after kimio very tough many days without and they would tell us she has to drink a lot of water a lot of this and yeah i can understand she didn't want because she had to vomit every 15-20 minutes like she couldn't stop so the more you drink the more you will vomit you know that's mentally how we think yeah and i had to be a bit uh probably the bad cop like yeah pushing come on we have to do it you have to do it so with that for you like you're obviously being the bad cop in front of her did you have to go somewhere else to kind of like release when she would spend because normally uh like when she's in barcelona she she's in my home yes like like all the kids basically and um but when she would go with her mom for a weekend like uh that's when i would be sick you know that's when everything would come out of me and uh you know all the acting that you do during the week yes that's the moment you can let go a bit um but it's it's tough you know because it's a word that i mean we've seen it it makes you afraid yeah You know, and we've seen it nearby, close friends or like with my father, even though I'm super in peace with that part.

1:09:44But with the daughter as a father, I think it's our soft spot. You know, we cannot accept that. Yeah. We cannot accept that. Our princesses. Yeah. Do you think you would argue because you're both very strong-willed and maybe similar personalities? Aquarius. We're both Aquarius. I think it's because we live together. I think when I lived with my mom, I was a bit more like her. And then when I started living with him, I think we morphed into the same personality, which I'm not sure yet if it's a good old. It's fantastic. But I think we, you know, we get along very well because we're very similar now.

1:10:20And I think we learned how to, you know, live together during that stage. I think we, I was going through a lot, but I, it was more internal. I think I wanted to be very happy in front of my family so that everyone would be happy. I think that also your mental state affects a lot how you're going to go with the experience. I think I look back and I look at a positive thing, obviously, because I'm here. And I went through a lot of physical changes. Obviously, my hair, you know, I didn't have hair anywhere. I lost my eyebrows and my eyelashes. And for me, that was hard because I was like 18, 19 when I had it.

1:11:00And obviously for me, my hair was very important, which honestly, yeah. You'll be a picture actually. We had, yeah, we were, yeah, we made a few pictures. I cannot see it like when I see it, I just want to delete it from my memory. But yeah, she used to do this Baldy thing to me. Yeah, I used to make so much fun of him. Yeah, we were together. You know, it's so much fun going, hey, Baldy, listen to that. I was always making fun. But then you have two choices. is when you're at home and you have those moments or you throw in a little bit of dark humor that in the end we smile with. Hey, Baldy, well, look at you, you know.

1:11:37And you try to get a smile out of a sad moment, you know, a difficult moment. You just try to smile and, I don't know, just try to be positive and smile. Yeah, she has a strong character. I think from her mom. But I think in the end also, you know, I think I can, I think we understand each other a lot of times, even without talking. I mean, it was a 24-7 thing. Oh, yeah. Normally, where we live, it's two floors. The kids are upstairs, and I'm the one down. But she was also in a wheelchair, titanium, so she couldn't sleep in her room. So she stayed in my room, but she had to vomit every 15 minutes.

1:12:15So he slept on the floor. I just put a mattress there, and I slept. And yeah, I'm a light sleeper, so every, I was already waking up, a bowl, this, that. He would put the flesh, like he was like, are you vomiting again? I was like, yes. You know, in a way, as a father, like we, especially football players, we're always, you know, a bit egoistic. We live our life, you know. Kids always have to kind of follow you wherever you travel, wherever you decide to work, you know, they follow. And that's one of those moments where you really understand what life is about. Football is a passion. But our blood, like your kids, that's just really what we have.

1:12:53and I think for me it was a clear decision. Like, yeah, football, no, I'm just out of it. I'm not interested. Now it's this battle. This is the most important one. Unbelievable. And you're now living in Milan doing fashion, which is brilliant. Is that something you always wanted to do? Yeah, actually, I've always wanted to live somewhere in Italy and I wanted to study fashion and I did do my first year and then I got diagnosed so I had to stop And I think during my time of being sick, I lost the passion a little bit because I was, I don't know, there was something about me that was just not accepting anything.

1:13:30And then after, I feel like I just started getting it again. And I'm very happy that I'm studying. But even the way how we found out, I never believed, you know, there's something up there. But since that day, I really believe that somebody is cooking things up there. Like, really, really clear. Like, we were on holidays in Mallorca with her and the little ones. So we came back. And then she said, Daddy, I called the doctor or the daughter of the doctor who organizes everything. Just to, you know, I just feel my knee a bit blocked. And let's go to the hospital. So we went there on a Friday afternoon.

1:14:11Normally in the summer in Spain, not the same people during the year are there in the summer. You know, it's like the moment they have a break. And we got there and then we went to a reception and they said, no, your appointment was on a Thursday. And she said, no, but the daughter of the doctor said Friday, look, there's a message. So they said, ah, well, he's not here. And just when we were, the moment we were going to leave home, suddenly I hear a voice and it was the doctor of Chelsea. Paco Biosca. He was 10 years at Chelsea. And I hadn't seen him for many years. And I just heard him and, you know, the football conversations, how are you doing, this and that, how's life, blah, blah, blah.

1:14:52And he kept us busy for 15 minutes. And then the doctor that we had to see, or he didn't take his flight or he missed his flight, something strange happened. And he went back on a Friday afternoon, which is very unusual, to the hospital. And then he saw us. He said, hey, you already did this and that. He operated my knee. He's a sport doctor. I think he does things also with Man City, I think. But he's a knee specialist and he knows all my family, my father, all the kids, myself, cousins. So he's really close with us, a sport guy. And then he said, I don't know this girl. First time here and what's up?

1:15:24And she said, no, I feel a block on my knee. And he said, let's have a quick look. He looked. I remember I was watching him and he was closing his eyes for 30 seconds. I think he probably was thinking, okay, how am I going to say this? And then he said, I don't think it's the knee. And I just want to study this a bit more. So what is your plan? And she was flying the next day. And she was not coming back to Barcelona for at least two, three months. If that would have happened, I don't think we would be in the same situation anymore. And the guy just said, don't fly. Better not fly. Just wait a bit.

1:16:01And let's do some tests Monday. And Monday, you know, I was there in the hospital. She was doing a test. they kept me really clever, I must say, Paco Biosca, the doctor of Chelsea, he kept me in the room talking because I do think after many surgeries, I think I've had over 15 surgeries on ankles and knees and everything, I could understand, depending on what test they do, I kind of could understand what they're looking at. Not exactly this, but I can differentiate some things. And if I look, I'm not a doctor, but I can recognize a few things. So they kept me in the room talking with Biosca, talking about Chelsea and I don't know what, football all the time.

1:16:39So they kept me away. They did all the tests with her. And then the news comes out. And, yeah, she has cancer. And that's the moment you say, what do you mean? I mean, she just had a block in her knee, you know. And that's the moment of shock. And that's, I think, when my mental, like, my life changes. Like, shock. But how lucky that the doctor missed his flight. He came back to the hospital. He saw her. because normally any other doctor would say, oh, when you're back in two months, we'll have an MRI scan. But he said no. He probably had a recent, without saying names, but he had a recent case also at the back, and I think he maybe recognized that immediately, and he didn't want to take any risk.

1:17:26And I really think the outcome is really thanks to this guy, thanks to the doctor. For us, he's the angel. So you really saved us because flying the next day, that was it. We finished her. That was it. Wow. Can I ask you about your fashion? Can you help Jill?

1:17:45It's nasty, isn't it? He keeps asking where this top's from. That's some journey. Being annoying. That's some journey you're on. Yeah. You all did, now, incredible. And it's been brilliant to have you on Stick to Football. Now, wonderful to see you. You do. And you're looking fantastic. Good luck in the future. Good luck. Thanks a lot. It was good to see you. Thank you so much. It was beautiful. This is beautiful. Well done.

1:18:18We never mentioned the UEFA Cup final. You owe me a medal, by the way. Do you know that? We scored five goals and we lost. No, four. No, no own goal. We scored our own goal also for you. We scored our own five. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know what was the funny story about that? Like, before the game, our players, the whole squad, was convinced we were going to win. And I'm like, OK. Jamie, go on. Thank you. Beautiful. And they were negotiating the bonuses. So the owner, who was a very clever guy, he said, I'm going to offer you an incredible bonus. If you win, if you lose, nothing. Or we would take the same bonus just to play the final.

1:18:58And all the players were going for, yeah, we're going to win the big bonus. and I was saying, no, we're going to go for it. Play it safe, yeah. Play it safe because if you win, there's no money who will replace a golden medal for a club like Alaves, for God's sake. I said, no, let's guarantee it. And the fight against everyone, in the end they accepted it. But we were so convinced that Liverpool, what the fuck, we're going to beat them anyways. How crazy is that? We would turn it up after about 15 minutes and then your manager made a change. He made a change. He put another attacker on in the back four.

1:19:30Nice to see you. And then, I don't know, and then everything changed. I remember Javi Moreno, Cosme Contra. They went to Milan. Yeah, to Milan both. Yeah. And I remember that game. We were, it was strange, but I'm proud of it. Yeah, it was an amazing game. Best, must be the best UEFA Cup final ever. Oh, crazy. Yeah. Yeah, four kids? Five. Four daughters, one boy, yeah. Oh, my God. I've got four. You still win. Four, yeah. One more, yeah, boy. And the daughter's very expensive. their daughters yeah I tell you well spoken fantastic I love this story yeah yeah yeah absolutely you held it together just because she's there she's not there yeah yeah you held it together thanks for listening and thanks to our partners Arm Clothing subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and you won't miss an episode