Pochettino: Messi or Maradona? Spurs Reflections & Chelsea Project Truth | Stick to Football EP 127

0:00Gary Neville: Just before we get started, a quick thanks to our partners and clothing. We hope you enjoy the show.

0:08Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, Senior Sports Editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S.

0:40national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this. Well, I think the problem is if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis. The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. Make Mother's Day even more special at Whole Foods Market.

1:10Kick off brunch or dinner with quality cheese and charcuterie with no synthetic nitrates. Then go seafood. There's an abundance on sale at Whole Foods Market, where it's all sustainable while caught or responsibly farmed. At the bakery, grab seasonal treats like their strawberry pretzel cream pie and you can't go wrong with a ready-to-heat quiche Lorraine, deviled eggs, and fresh-cut fruits to go. Celebrate, Mom, with Whole Foods Market. The best-selling lit RPG fantasy, He Who Fights With Monsters by Travis Deverell, writing a shirt alone, is coming to bookstores for the very first time in deluxe hardcover.

1:46Order Volume 1 through Barnes & Noble and become one of the first to hold the legendary adventure in your hands. Destiny awaits. Don't miss your early access to the lit RPG series everyone is talking about.

2:01Gary Neville: I didn't realise he was at Tottenham six seasons.

2:04Roy Keane: Oh, thank you, legend.

2:07Gary Neville: How many years do you think he was at Tottenham?

2:10Roy Keane: Tottenham five. Six.

2:14Gary Neville: Well, five and a half.

2:16Roy Keane: Oh, that's more to what? Five, seven months? That's more to what six.

2:19Gary Neville: Yeah.

2:20Roy Keane: Why did you not know that?

2:22Gary Neville: No, I thought he was three or four. How many years do you think that he was at Spurs?

2:30What's these with the little faces? Six. Mm, six seasons. Yeah. I've done my homework, Gary. You know what I mean? I do my homework, pal.

2:37Roy Keane: I said six and he said five. Then you said six and it's like, yeah. I do the hard yardage. What's that? Totally guessed, didn't you? What's the six? Roy, did you see that? Oh, lovely. It's nice, huh? Little facey. Are they Connies or Collins? I don't know but they've got little face on them. Can you just sign there, just for a kid's birthday? I'm trying to put back on my chocolate. I thought you were going to say your signatures. Just sign it? Yeah, just if you can sign that. It's my friend's little boy's birthday.

3:08Gary Neville: Shall we start with the World Cup, America? What do you think? 50 days to go to the first game. Is that all? Wow. They're not playing first game, are they? It's Mexico first game, isn't it? More importantly, how are we going to get on in New York? six weeks together it's gonna be great huh i'm a bit worried i think we should know what we should do as well with the bike we should get back oh we definitely get a bike in new york that's got disaster in all of us because we're riding central park i want to do some wheelies through central park i'm going to come and see us for a week i want to do a few bunny hops yeah and let's go Yeah, I had a mongoose BMS.

3:42Did you? Oh, they're amazing.

3:45Roy Keane: I've been actually my tricks on a bike. Hello. See ya. How are you?

3:51Gary Neville: Good to see you.

3:55Gary Neville: You smell nice.

3:57Roy Keane: Thank you. You do smell nice. My wife has picked my perfumes. What's your perfume, Missy?

4:06Gary Neville: Go on, you can promote your perfume on here. What is a perfume you're wearing? Your wife, she's got to get the credit. Fahrenheit? Nice. No, no, that was my first. Thank you. Yes, I remember. And now, sometimes when I am walking in London and doing shopping, I always try, I'm going to try Fahrenheit to remember. For me, it was the first, Fahrenheit.

4:25Roy Keane: The difference is he changed it. I was, yes, I evolved. You moved.

4:32Gary Neville: Loyalty, it's a bit of loyalty. Stick to Football is brought to you by Arn Clothing. Do you think you can win the tournament, Rizio? Why not? Why not? Is Harry Kane the best player that you've ever coached? After the four or five months, yes. We spent 18 months with no one signing. It's annoying me a little bit, the VAR, because I think it's changing. When something wrong happens, look at the coach. They can't keep looking at the manager going, You have to adapt yourselves. When you have personality, you show. And it was easy to see who was brave, who wasn't brave. The tackles on him. Exactly.

5:10No, no. The tackles on him.

5:12Gary Neville: It's amazing. Explain what the GACON test is. Every lap, you increase 105 metres, and then it's 120, 130.

5:21Roy Keane: That sounds horrendous. It's horrendous, but it's 10 minutes. Did you grow up on a farm? I am a cow. We heard that, don't worry. With some of your transfer deals.

5:38Gary Neville: Maurizio, we play a game called Mythbusters. Yeah. When's the last time you played Mythbusters? You'll get it, don't worry. OK. OK. Before I explain... It took me longer to explain it than just play it, I think. OK, the question is... Right, we'll answer first. Does Maurizio believe that lemons get rid of negative energy? Yes. I'm going to say yes, she wouldn't have brought that up.

6:04Roy Keane: No. And I don't. There you go. Because I was wondering why... Well, it doesn't work, Tom.

6:13Gary Neville: Yes or no?

6:14Roy Keane: I'm going to say no.

6:15Gary Neville: I say yes. I'm asking Maurizio, do you believe that lemons get rid of negative energy? Of course, 100%. Thank you very much. Maurizio, how does this get rid of negative energy? Because I need some in my life, I think. First of all, you need to understand the nature. The nature is around us. If you are not connected with the nature, it's difficult, no? That happen or not happen. And I think it's... For me, 100%, I really believe that that has an effect in attracting the bad energy. Who wants the lemons to take home, then? No, the good thing... Gary, that is perfect. They'll be poking fun. Because it's not bad energy here.

6:55Gary Neville: Good. Leave them there, go. I want lemons at every show. Absolutely. Thanks, Maurizio. Is it true that you're... Is this for us or Maurizio? Was Maurizio's great grandad a sheriff? A sheriff? A sheriff, that's an old-fashioned... What's that cowboy stuff?

7:12Roy Keane: I was with cowboys. I feel like, yeah, I could see sheriff energy in him. Sheriff energy. He's a leader. A sheriff? Did he grow up on a farm? I grew up in the family. I am a boy from... I am a cowboy. He's a cowboy bro. We heard that, don't worry. Show me your transfer deals.

7:40That is another thing. I am killing my wife. After the last camp that was in USA, that we played in Atlanta, I don't know why, some guy made me listen to country music. and now I listen country music. You love it. I say I'm a cowboy, yes, I am a cowboy.

7:59Roy Keane: Have you ever done a rodeo, like on a bull? I was when I was a kid. Oh, really? On my farm, yes. That is the most scary thing ever. But not with this type of bull. Not a proper bull? No. I was a bull, but not this type of bull. What about a sheriff?

8:14Gary Neville: A baby bull. It was a baby bull. So your great-granddad was a sheriff? My granddad, yes. In the, in the, yes. In the village area. In the local area, yes. The father of my granddad. Yes, great granddad. Yes. Wow. He was like... Like killing people and stuff and all that, yeah. I don't know if killing people, but... Back in the day, they must have... He was the sheriff. Yeah. He made the rules. No, he made the rules, not to kill people. It reminds me, what's the film? Leads and Saddles. No, the program. What's the series called with the cowboys in America? Yellowstone! Yellowstone! What are you going to say, a toy store?

8:56Gary Neville: Your upbringing is a little bit about Yellowstone. I don't believe that kill people, but it was similar leadership. Sheriff kept the peace, he's not there to kill peace, keep the peace. Yeah, yeah.

9:13Kill cows, no, no.

9:14Gary Neville: So you're a cowboy growing up on a farm, what was the farm? Cows or...? Yes, everything. Argentinian beef is very good, eh? Beautiful, yeah. Yes, I have a... You have a farm now? I have a farm, yes. In Argentina? In Argentina, yes. It does the beef and the... Will you send us some? I think it does the animals. The beef is difficult now because with the Brexit it's difficult. They don't accept to bring... No. Oh, OK. Next one. OK. Did Bielsa visit Maurizio's bedroom at 2am when he was 11 years old? Yes, he did, yeah. To check his legs. He chucked his legs.

9:58Roy Keane: Calfs as in his cows? No, his feet, his legs. He checked his legs. He checked to see what his legs were about.

10:06Gary Neville: Bielsa was your hero, like coach, your coach hero. Maradona was a player, but Bielsa, was he your mentor? Well, it was him and Jorge Grifa, that was the massive player that played in Atletico de Madrid for 10 years in Spain and he won with Atletico de Madrid. Yes, they were there and they wanted to be nice with my father and my parents and wanted to see me. I was 13 years old. But why did he come at 2 o 'clock in the morning? Why did he come to the club? Because they wanted to give me the possibility to go and do some tests in Newell's or Boy. They were trying to find a young player. But why 2am in the morning?

10:49Gary Neville: The sheriff was asleep then. Because your farm was so far away. Because they were trying to visit some club close to my hometown, Murphy. Right, there you go. Irish. And that is not England, it's Irish. Oh, don't worry, I'm not confused with that. Yeah, I'm OK, don't worry. We're on the same page here. Exactly, exactly. And they were the same players, no? Because that area was all the young players there to see. And I cannot go because I was in a farm school. That was from 7 o 'clock to 5 o 'clock in the afternoon. I spent the whole day in a farm school. And I was so tired. That was Monday. I was playing two games or three games during the weekend.

11:45Monday is so early to take the bus to go to the school. When I arrived, my dad said, you are tired. And I am tired too. I am not going to bring to play there. But they hear that some player is good there but this is not coming and they go and find my mind. They come and test your legs? I think Gabby Hines. Yes. Has Hines got a big fam? Hines, you know, I think... Gabriel Hines. Anderson had a fam. Yeah, Hines. But no, no, but the Hines is for another place but similar to me.

12:21Gary Neville: Right, okay. But Anderson, I remember Anderson when I was at United, he said give me some money and I'll invest in cows and a farm in Brazil for you.

12:27Roy Keane: And did you?

12:28Gary Neville: I didn't think it was a good idea.

12:31Roy Keane: Did you do it?

12:32Gary Neville: No, I didn't, but he was investing in cows and in a farm in Brazil, I always remember him saying. Anderson. Anderson, but in Brazil. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Viv Anderson.

12:46Gary Neville: OK. Is it true Maurizio could actually speak excellent English at Southampton, but still use the translator for interviews? Is for me the question? I would have gave it away. I would have said no. No, no, no. I still know. I wasn't. No, I have no idea when I read to Sargento. Yeah. I remember always the first game that you did in Sky, Monday Night Football, again Everton. And I was thinking how I can create an impact because no one knows me. Who is Pochettino? No, in the media was who is Pochettino. No, no, this guy is coming here, no one knows. I said, even if he's not speaking English, how he's going to connect with the player?

13:34I said, when I go out, I go and say hello to Moise and hug him, and I go to the dugout, and people was like, you know, this guy, that was the noise you don't like, no? And I said, I need to do something. and I go into the pitch and I call Ricky Lambert. And to be honest, I don't remember what I told him. But I was seen, I say, Ricky, and Ricky was like this. I said, okay, no, no. He is. Was this for the cameras?

14:10Gary Neville: Yeah, you were. That was for the cameras. And I say, oh, no, no, no. He have, he told me. He understand a little bit. If you, you can see, you can see that image because that was amazing. And I say, I need to create something that the people trust, you know, because if not, and no, it was so difficult from the beginning, you know, to connect, to connect with the player. I used a guy that was Uruguayan and that was translated to me what he wanted to say. Jesus was a little bit, you know, he was good. But I think I understood that the connection is more important than the language. Yeah. is to talk in the same language.

14:55Gary Neville: Yeah, I found that in Valencia as well. But I think fans appreciate when you're trying to learn. I think they appreciate it if you're not very good at English and if you're trying. I think fans take the managers a bit more. I used to speak to Maurizio and I remember I had to see you after I came back from Valencia and he said, you were going to call me, weren't you? And you didn't want to, but he was going to say, take some experience with me and I wish you had called me to be fair at the time. Difficult, eh? Difficult. No, it's difficult because it's not sure if you are prepared or not prepared, if you're quality or not quality, are the timing and the circumstance that when you arrive sometime, I always say that sometimes the lorries come and you cannot go away.

15:40And the lorries, you know, take you and that's it.

15:44Gary Neville: Is it true that Maurizio, probably it's true, used to have to take a 160-mile bus ride to get to training when he was younger? 160 miles, that's like London, isn't it, from Manchester? 160 miles, that's three and a half. That's bike ride. No, 160 mile bus ride. Bus ride. You're confused, Mirzio. I'm confused. Is that like one of them Greyhound buses? So, you know, to go to training on the bus all the way to training. When you were young, did you have to travel three hours to get to training? Yeah, but that was in a period, very short period, six months. that I was doing. My dad brought, it's like coming London to Manchester, bring with my dad's car, train, waiting for me, wait.

16:35Wow. Because I was in the school, in the pharmacy school there, but in New York Soul Boys they wanted me one or twice a week training. And I was lucky that my dad

16:45Gary Neville: How old were you then? I was 13 years old. Wow. That's quite a slack. That is why, of course, my football hero is Maradona, but my parents are my heroes. Of course, yeah. Absolutely. Without them, impossible to be here today. Last one. Is it true that Maurizio, when he was Southampton manager, took the players to train at Barcelona's training ground and they fell in love with you when Messi came up and gave you a hug. Is that true? Probably, yeah. It feels true. Even if it wasn't, I wish it was true. Did that happen, Mauricio? It sounds beautiful. Did you take Southampton's players to train at the Barcelona training ground?

17:32It was always part of the strategy to let them see. To make believe. You can't hear Messi. Come and help me, yeah. The bill after was... Yes, yes. I paid... For Messi at a restaurant. No, I was... I think it was special because when I took Southampton, when I explained what is going on there, no one can believe me. I came to London and we met. And when I met, Nicolas said to me, it's better if you don't speak English. We speak in Spanish. and I put a guy that can translate you. Okay, and he explained, oh, my, he said, Nicola, no. He said, my philosophy or my dream is that we need to play like that team.

18:26And it was Barcelona. And put no Barcelona play in there. And I said, yeah, but we need Messi, Xavi, Iniesta. Okay, you are ready to buy this player. and I said yeah yeah but that is the philosophy that I like in football, he said yes I like this type of football of course but after we need to see the player if they can okay well but we have Lallana we have Shea Rodrigo, we have Luque Shaw, we have Proust, we have Morgan Snell Ricky Lambert and like this and I said okay they call me and say yeah but now I need to now I start to hear the coach great coach for Southampton amazing coach that's Bissac you bring a guy that no one knows no and I say I need to create an impact with my player my player I say to my wife I need to buy the best suit is possible tell me which suit is the best and she said to me one brand I know when to say the brand that brand okay I go pam pam pam tailor made amazing I said I need the perfume Fahrenheit Fahrenheit Fahrenheit.

19:35The best perfume. And then I said, after that, because I cannot convince the player, I cannot... the player became in love with me with my talk. And I said, okay, I need to create something. We were seeing this kid, I said, okay, we have time here because it was the FA Cup. or I don't know, we can bring this guy to Barcelona, go for training in Barcelona and see if we can meet somebody, say these guys and the players are going to say, oh, that is a well-known coach and he's a good coach and he looked at the player of Barcelona. And that was what happened and all was good. So it's a good idea to do this?

20:22Yeah, today maybe if some young coach is listening to us and say, oh, I'm going to do the same, maybe it's not work. But in that moment was very creative, the thing, and to say how you can seduce, you know, a group of players that they need to play for you. Because that was the most important. So it's true. The power of Messi.

20:42Roy Keane: It's true. It's true. 90 % is true.

20:51Gary Neville: Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. How's the US? How's the job? How's international football? It's completely different to what we used to do in the football clubs. Day by day, you have your habit and your plan. and now international football is good because you understand a little bit much better yourself and I think you need to find a way, you know, because you have a lot of time free, but you need to reschedule your life. You start to live a life that you were a player or after a coach you never had because, you know, time with your family, time with your friends. but the thing is I am I think we are improving like a coaching staff I think we are learning how to provide the the player in the short time that you have optimize the time to to be with them and to try to translate all the concepts that they can be very useful because sometimes when you are in a club sometimes you are lost in too many things you sometimes you over you know give too much information and sometimes it's not necessary.

22:14Now it's about to optimize and to try to, you know, to be clinical in the way that you communicate with your player. I think also it's a very good thing to improve, no, and to summary, you know, all the way that you work in your methodology. And then you have time to start to see different, you know, because today the technology is next to us, is with us, and we cannot give the back of the technology. It's really important. All the coaching staff now we need to... I think we need to give the principles and what we love, that is a sense of the football, you know, from the pass. Understand that it's a different game to another, but to add the technology, but also to know how to use that technology and not to affect to go in some direction or another.

23:07I think to mix with our experience and to create that idea or culture to raise the standard in the way to help the players.

23:18Gary Neville: When you talk about technology, are you talking about communicating with the players with the iPads? Are you talking about connecting with your coaching team through video calls or things like that? What are you talking about? Today, the technology, I think we are seeing the VAR, you know, how it's affecting the game. It's a completely different game than when we were a player, no? It's annoying me a little bit, the BER, because I think it's changing our game. It's changing the way that also that we educate our young kids, you know, in that game. That game is special because it's completely different to another.

23:55It's not an entertainment game. It's a very competitive game. But we are now forcing that unbelievable sport to do an entertainment game. and that is what I hate because I am seeing now in America that entertainment games is American football is basketball is hockey is entertainment but football is not an entertainment game it's a competitive game and that is what we are forcing now into change I not talk about to watch or to communicate by Zoom or laptop or provide I think that is part of you know maybe our show because today the kid you know arrived to being professional, using the technology in the way that maybe we didn't use.

24:42And that is trending, and you need to provide that, because if not, it's like a group of players say, oh, you are an old man that you don't know. Oh, yeah, you're a dinosaur. Exactly. Dinosaur. Exactly. And that is important, but I think for me, it's more about to manage data. It's about how you assess your team, analyze your team, how the opponent, and then how you use that information. And today it cannot be possible that only knowing that you can be a coach. Only knowing the theory of the tactics of system, you can be a coach. If you don't have another, that is the sense of the football, it's difficult to be a good coach.

25:29You can win games because after the game is multifactorial and things that can happen in the game that you can win. But it's not only this. And that is why I think my responsibility, what I feel and the coaching staff that we are in the mix because we know the past and we are now in the middle of the future, present future. And I think the responsibility is also to work with the technology but also to provide this capacity. When you're with the team now, international management, is that your focus when you're together for 10-12 days is just about the game. It's not transfers, it's not budgets, it's not about the academy.

26:08It's brilliant. When I was with Ireland, the whole focus is just that 10-12, however long you're together for them games. Isn't it fantastic? Do you enjoy that side of it where there's no board meetings? It's brilliant. That is brilliant. I am enjoying it a lot because it's only focusing on training, and prepare training and try to provide the players the possibility to do what you expect from them. There's a worry that the last, because obviously you're one of the hosts, you qualified, there's been no jeopardy in some of your games. Is that a worry going into the games? I think when we accept the challenge to go to America, we knew that it's going to be a problem how to approach the games because we already qualified.

27:03It's normal to think for the players. I try to avoid the player and to all my staff and the people and the media also in America to say friendly game. I said not official game. Because friendly game is when you play with your friends. that go and friendly games and like this. No such thing. Non-official game is still, it's not official, but it's competitive. And that is, sometimes they made a mistake. No, it's a friendly game. I don't need to take a risk. It's a friendly game. Why you play? Why I need to put my leg? How you create the habit again? Because football is about habit. And if you don't create the good habit, it's not, I not compete during one year and a half, but after in the World Cup, I'm going to compete.

27:46It's not like this. Switch it on. Exactly, and you need to create that habit. And that was that we are fighting, fighting to change that mindset. I think we are in a very good now way to... The people start to realise, because even the last press conference in America, they start to laugh, all the media say, no, non-official game, someone say non-official game. That is good that we are learning. You're winning them over. But I think it's... Are they excited? Are they excited for what's coming? Yes. No, I think the fans are so exciting and all the people are so excited. I think they are in a – and the people that is important there in soccer, they are very conscious about to – they need to invest.

28:31They need to create some strategy to bring all the – because it's more than 300 million. 300 million, yeah, 350. Why? Another day I was in a dinner with 40 people, important people that support soccer in America. And they say, why? If we have too many people here, why does not appear one Messi? Why we don't have 11 like in another sport? I say, it's a good question, but I think it's one of the things that for me is key. is the relationship, the emotional relationship with the game that the kids in America still don't develop until they are 11, 12 or 13. That the difference with other countries that for me, that I know Argentina, in the way that I develop my emotional relationship with football is when I start to walk.

29:38before you start to walk because you start to kick the ball. You love it straight away. That is a problem because you need to go to the school and to play in a private schools or how you, because the relationship is with basketball, no, or with American football. The kid, no, is take the ball with the hands, the first thing. But here, you kick the ball with the feet. And that is, for me, is the key and we were talking about that. But they are very conscious about that they need to do something to create a legacy and that is a great opportunity after this World Cup.

30:14Roy Keane: They always did it in the girls and women's games or like USA years ago when we played against them, obviously still now, but they were the leading kind of women's team. Do you know what I mean? So that mentality to be number one and I almost think the women's game was kind of a little bit ahead of the men's game. But I was in Texas last week and people were talking about the World Cup. Was that? Yeah, and I think, is it going to, when you speak about entertainment, will it be a bit different, football, soccer, for the World Cup? Will they make it a bit more entertainment? You speak about other sports like NFL, basketball.

30:47Roy Keane: Will it kind of have that feel to it? I've seen in women, Emma is doing a fantastic show. She's great. Yeah, she's great. Amazing. They are ahead of us, of men in America, and ahead of the world, for different reasons that for sure you know. And coming back to what we were talking about in America, the problem is not to create more schools. It's about to create spaces to the kids going to play. Because what I didn't learn from my teachers or from my coaches, what I learned was from my friends when I played. I played again one that was three or more and bigger than me. I wanted to take the ball.

31:34I developed my capacity, my emotional intelligence to how to take the ball here. And then the grass doesn't exist. I play in the soil. And this type of thing is what... Because that is football. It's not to build... It's not a factory of two...

31:57Gary Neville: You play it on the streets, basically. It's where you learn, with the ball. The ball teaches you. It's not the coach that teaches you. And sometimes people that are very rational say, no, if we create this and that and that and that, it goes to this. No. In soccer, in football, sorry, in soccer. In football, no. In football, it's not like this. I saw in some facilities that, because today you go to the, you know, all the training ground are amazing. It's like a billar or pool. Smooth, unbelievable. And in one facility was a pitch that was in the square when you play with your friends. And that was an intelligent idea, a clever idea, because maybe one day, you're going to play there.

32:53On the back pitch. And no coach. 10x10, 11x10 and you play in a very bad pitch like this and play and try to, no rules. And that is, yes, maybe no. But after you come back and say, yeah, but after we are putting a lot of rules, BAR is too many rules, you cannot do this, you cannot touch, you cannot do this, this is review. I think, yes, we are again in the way that we were learning, in the way that we evolved like a player. And that is why, yes, pay attention in all the things that we are talking about.

33:35Gary Neville: Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing.

33:42Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S.

34:14national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this... Well, I think the problem is if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis. The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. Make Mother's Day even more special at Whole Foods Market.

34:44Kick off brunch or dinner with quality cheese and charcuterie with no synthetic nitrates. Then go seafood. There's an abundance on sale at Whole Foods Market, where it's all sustainable while caught or responsibly farmed. At the bakery, grab seasonal treats like their strawberry pretzel cream pie, and you can't go wrong with a ready-to-heat quiche Lorraine, deviled eggs, and fresh-cut fruits to go. Celebrate mom with Whole Foods Market. The best-selling lit RPG fantasy, He Who Fights With Monsters by Travis Deverell, writing a shirt alone, is coming to bookstores for the very first time in deluxe hardcover.

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35:58Gary Neville: Mirzio, when I came to see you and you got the job two years ago, I think the ambition seemed to be for the host country quarterfinals. Is that the ambition? Is quarter-final almost like that would be the acceptable sort of level? I know you're a manager of a country that's playing games in 50 days and the reality is you don't predict. But is that the sort of idea that you think would mean success would be accepted at that level? I think maybe the idea on the media is that idea. But I go to an anecdote when I met Mr. President before the draw in Washington. He asked me, do you think, coach, that we can win?

36:40I said, of course. The tournament? The tournament, yes. I think it's...

36:45Gary Neville: Do you think you can win the tournament, Rizio? Why not? Because it's all about belief. Look, in Morocco, in Qatar, no one believes. And I went to the semi-final. Or South Korea in Japan, I think, of course, the final. Semi-final, too. And I think it's plenty of examples. If you put your limit and say, maybe for us it's to arrive, the message is to arrive to the quarterfinals. You don't go through the group stage. I think because all is possible in football, and because I really believe that everything is possible, instead you stop to believe. But look what happened in 2019. in Amsterdam is because the standard and the habit and the mentality was believe until to the end and that we believe we get the result on then if you give up and in football is is not to say I really want to win or because if you ask everyone want to win but after is how you create that habit about to win the mentality, the capacity, the resilience and everything that after in a tough moment, that energy, like a group, it's not one player, it's the whole group, the group that is outside also, it's believed that you can, you know, stay after you can lose.

38:19But always, the opportunity always happens in that game.

38:24Gary Neville: I know that there will be adaptability and there'll be sort of, We went to the World Cup in 2014. Because it was in Brazil, there were a lot of very hot conditions. So we thought teams would sit back a little bit and play on the counter-attack. Now, obviously, in America, it's going to be hot in a lot of the cities. In 2018, in Russia, I think possession went out. But in 2014, in Brazil, there were a lot of teams. Like Costa Rica, they were high-pressing. What do you think this tournament's going to be about tactics? How do you see you're going to approach it? The experience in the World Cup last year, in summer, make us to, you know, to really feel what is going to happen in the World Cup.

39:00Because we were playing in a cover stadium that was 21, 22, 23 degrees. That was amazing. You can do whatever you want, any strategy and game plan. But after we play in San Jose or play in another stadium that we're open and we're 45 degrees. and say maybe we need to adapt to the weather. I think it's important for us to have this experience that we already know. I think that is going to be also a key factor. That is why if you believe, maybe you can have some advantage if you manage well this type of thing. In a way that also, in the group stage, not because you have time to recover, but I think it's important how you are going to manage.

39:51to manage and to have different strategies during the game and be flexible, I think it's going to be important to manage all these type of things.

40:02Gary Neville: I always think of your teams being particularly the ones in the Premier League that were really high-pressing, exciting, sort of driving forward. Will you have to change from that in, obviously, 45 degrees, you can't do that, it's impossible? I think the idea needs to be this, but after is how to also to try to make the plan when it's not possible because you know you cannot breathe or you are tired and you have not the good organization to go to press is to be in a medium block and to sustain and to try to breathe and to recover you know I think today I am more we are more a coaching staff that how important is to adapt to your players, to see the characteristics of your player and then design the best strategy after to go to play.

40:59I less believe in a close philosophy. That coach is like this.

41:06Gary Neville: Have you changed then in the last five, six years? If you're not changed, you'll die. I don't want to die. I want to survive. I want to be in that because I love that sport.

41:21But depending on the roster or the squad or the characteristics of your players, you need to try to provide the best tool to the team to win. Because if I want to press, but I have not the characteristics of the player to press, yes, but I am a coach that I like to press. Yes, of course. What I like is one thing. What I can do is another difference. And because I really believe that football still is the player, the game is the player, and only what we can do is to help them to perform better. It's not to go again off their identity or characteristics. I think that is so important. That is why I think I put myself more on another side than to say, no, I am this type of coach and that is my philosophy and I'm not going to change.

42:19Even if you are dying, I'm not going to change. I think that is, it's not to be too much intelligent, not too clever, no?

42:27Roy Keane: Players will be so prepared for the heat though, won't they? I remember my first World Cup 20 years ago now and we just got told to wear an extra jacket in training and I was like to prepare for this heat but now, sports science, everything else, they will be prepared where I think they'll be fit enough to cope with it. I'm happy that we now, the knowledge of that was a disaster to prepare like this. But I think now it's about that we know how to prepare. I think thanks to the science, I think all the doctors and nutritionists and everything, I think to prepare how to play when you go to play in Mexico like this, more than 2 ,000 meters, you know, and all that preparation and when it's hot, all the strategies to prepare and to be hydrated and not to be this deshydratated during the game or before the game.

43:18I think today that is amazing that I am happy with this, how the technology is helping. And I think not too much, but I think in this way, yes. Yeah, but you can still expect your unexpected because all the teams will have the best facilities, the best preparation, but some teams will turn out for the tournament and not perform. That's the challenge, isn't it? We'll have everything covered. You will have the sports signs, you have the best hotels, the best facilities, but after the first game you might lose 2-0, you go, I thought our preparation was great. So I think it's how you adapt, especially to any setbacks or injuries etc.

43:53Yeah, when I was doing my coaching batch in Spain, there was a great guy that was teaching us about coach, psychology, methodology. I said, which is the most important characteristic that you want to expect in your player. And it's the capacity to adapt in every single moment. And to adapt in all the conditions like this, but also to adapt in a tactical way during the game. That is why I think it's about how you propose or how you challenge the player for them to make the best decision during the game. Right. And that is always really, really important, how you adapt. That I translate to the coaching staff too, because we need to adapt.

44:47That, no, of course, that I like this type of football. I like this type of way to play. I like this way to approach the games. But that's what I need to adapt to my roster, my squad, and not to think in myself. is not to coach, is to coach the squad for myself. I need to coach the team for the team, for the player, not for what I think is good for me. I need to provide the best tool to perform with the characteristics that I have in my team. You said about adapting yourself, a manager and a coach, but you want your players to adapt. You can't kick every ball from them. There must be a situation where you trust your players to say, you have to figure it out.

45:33Just like when you're a young kid playing football, How do I get the ball off a bigger player? We're talking about Martinelli making a decision. You obviously have to hopefully good senior players. They'll suss out a situation. Went to press, went to sit in. Because they can't keep looking at the manager going, you have to adapt yourselves. Yes, I think when the player, when something wrong happens, look at the coach. But maybe it's not to blame the player, it's to blame the coach. Oh yes, sometimes, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like, what I need to do here? Okay, but if you work during the week, what you are doing?

46:10If you don't provide the tools to the player? Today we are seeing a lot of games. I'm watching more games than ever. And now the trend is to go 1v1. And no, but the physical condition is not important. Yeah, it's important because now it's plenty battle 1v1. And if you are not strong and you don't touch and move and find the third man free, it's difficult to break that block when they come and to press and like this. And I think today it's very interesting to provide to the player a good tool to adapt. to adapt and make decisions naturally and she'll win because if not you have that plan and if that plan doesn't work what do I need to do?

47:08Gary Neville: I'm just thinking back to when you come out of I'm thinking about you at Southampton your style at Spurs was like electric I used to think when I got your games I used to think I'm going to see a really good game of football it's going to be exciting. You then go to PSG. When you're talking about you have to adapt to the players, was that the biggest moment in your career maybe where you had to adapt to the players at PSG? Because you couldn't maybe press with certain players that were there, the egos that were there around that time. Are you thinking of that as a sort of crossroads in your career or was that something that stands out as a moment where you couldn't play the way you wanted?

47:42Well, I think I become a complete coach after Paris.

47:48Gary Neville: Yeah. Because it sounds like when you were talking there about so you have to adapt to the players and thinking about how you played at Espanyol, Southampton, Spurs, you have to completely change. Yes, I think even having a very good player in all the clubs, when you arrive to Paris and you have the characteristics that you find in the squad, and you need to adapt. You cannot go to press. I was saying, I don't know. Was that frustrating? No, it's not frustrating because you learn from you because that is the football that you like when you have the element or the characteristic of the player that you can do.

48:31But after when you have a different, you know, characteristics of the player and then the form of the player, you need to review your ideas and your capacity and to try to create some structure that provides this guy the possibility to perform. Always I was talking, if you have Messi, you can respect Messi with 30 plus, I don't remember, after Barcelona, to arrive to Paris and make him to press like was shown with 21 year old or Harry Kane when I met you know in Tottenham with 20 year old I said you cannot say to Messi go to press yeah no and could you have tried

49:23we try

49:27we try but it's difficult yeah no easy no easy you said you felt you became did you say were your

49:35Gary Neville: words than a complete coach after Paris. What did you mean by that?

49:42Because I think when you coach this type of player...

49:47Gary Neville: Who did you have there? When I was a player I was with Maradona, maybe, but for me yes, Ivan de la Peña, Ronaldinho, Ococha, Cheche Ococha, big player, no? Batistuta, Redondo. I play with big, big, you know? Characters. Characters and players, no? But after when you coach, I think it's about that it's not only a player or a man that you coach and finish the transition and nothing happened. That you need to care. not only about when you coach, but also when you are outside. Every single decision has a consequence of outside. That is maybe more important than the consequence, your decision inside to the dressing room or the field when you are training.

50:42And that is when you learn that all your decisions are going to have a big effect outside. And outside is people that pay attention, that make decisions on you in this football club that pay attention to what is going on around. And that is very...

51:03Gary Neville: You get interference, you mean? Yeah, of course. Deep on the outside? Of course. From where, though? From where, Maurizio? Of course, that have an effect. You know, I don't know if you remember when I took off Messi, no? In the game. Because I saw that was in a big risk after my doctor and advice in his knee, that was a problem in his knee. The problem wasn't inside with Leo. The problem was outside. The people started to criticize, but being very disrespectful, they said, even Guardiola always asks Messi to cough. And that guy doesn't understand that Messi needs to be on the pitch always, 90 minutes.

51:52And this type of thing, that create a bad image from you and you cannot do nothing. Because it's so powerful. It's out of your control. Yes. And my wife is going to kill me again. Because I'm going to explain. When that happened, there was again Lyon that we were winning all the games. After 10 games or 8 games, winning, winning, winning, winning. And two weeks after, after Lyon, we played again Manchester City. after Messi scored and we beat Manchester City 2-1 in Paris. My best intention was to protect because I was thinking he needs to play Champions League. He came to the Premier League. If I don't make a decision, I'll get injured and it's affecting him to the World Cup in 2022 in Qatar.

52:42It's too many things in your mind when you are a coach. You were, you know, you were there and it's not easy. And I made the decision. But my fault was not to ask him. I was... Oh, you were trying to protect him. Protecting him, OK. But when...

53:01Gary Neville: Do you have to ask? He looks like the type of player that you do have to ask if he wants to come off. Well, from outside, it's like you need to ask, no? In that moment, for me, I didn't think. I didn't want to show that I was more, you know, brave than another coach. That wasn't in my... and didn't want to challenge him. But in this moment, that is the best for the player. Yeah, he's trying to help. He's trying to help. OK. Sporting director, after the game, people know. I said, Mauri, why? I asked Leo and it was good. I can't keep up. He said, no, but I was protecting because all the information.

53:40He said, yeah, but the people is paying. They come to want to see 90 minutes, you know. I said, but I want to win the game, you know, because I want to protect the player. And when I arrived to home, and now he's going to kill my wife, to me, when I arrived, when seeing, watching this. When she sees this. Yes, he said to me, she was on the bed, I go to the toilet, come back, I sit in the bed, and say, who was looking at me? I said, I said, what, why? You, you, you make that decision. I said, look, now people are in Argentina killing you, in France is killing you. You put in that situation and say, OK, yeah, but that is...

54:24So you can't explain to them, Mauricio, that I'm protecting him. Can you imagine if you did play him and he got injured and he couldn't get to the World Cup Qatar and do what he'd done? Then you're trying to protect him. I can't understand. Is that how much power he has? Right here, that at Arsenal. But it's not him, it's not him. No, it's not the players do. Him is amazing, like another big player that I was, like Maradona when I was. He's amazing, he's very normal, Leo. He's not normal, he's a genius. But he's more normal. But the problem is outside. And then the people that make the decision will listen to what is going on outside.

55:10That is the problem.

55:11Gary Neville: Maric, do you see why Luis Enrique seems to have come in and removed all of the sort of what will be superstars? Because you had Neymar as well. But he didn't remove. The club removed. Yeah, but the club... No, no, the club made the decision. Do you wish that decision had been made earlier when you were there? Because you had hunger and young players, obviously, at Tottenham. Do you wish that they would have made that decision earlier to go with, say, for instance, younger, more hungry players? You had star players. When they call me, they call me and they say to implement that idea that happened with Luis.

55:52Gary Neville: To bring younger players in. They wanted to bring all the best players, young players from France. The critics were about not to spend money in young talent in France when we arrived. That was the idea. But after when there appeared different possibilities to bring players like in this way, and of course, one year to the World Cup, one year and a half to the World Cup, I think it was a great opportunity, and I think I was agree. I wasn't disagree. The club was the opportunity to have the captain of Argentina, the captain of France, the captain of Brazil, the captain of Italy, the captain of, you know, Spain, the captain of Netherlands.

56:39I think it was a great opportunity for Paris Saint-Germain to reunite the big names, you know, and to show to the world that it was possible to play in this way and with this idea. And that was, of course, in this moment, what you can say, you know, you only need to support that. It's true that was there a situation that I nearly go away from the project, but it's true after they convinced me to stay, you know, in Paris. You left? After a few months, yes. Why? Different interests for different clubs. And nearly to move, but after they convinced me to stay, okay, I stay. But I think after my season that we didn't win the Champions League.

57:41But the season after, arrived another coach and they changed the idea to build with different people. The idea of to build a different way to act and to make things.

58:01Gary Neville: Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Take us back to Tottenham. What do you make of what's happening at Tottenham now? When you see Tottenham in the position that they're in, you obviously were there when they were building the training ground, they started to build the stadium, the idea of making Tottenham one of the biggest clubs in Europe. What do you feel when you see the position that they're in? It's really sad. I really love Tottenham and always is going to be a part of my life, an important part of my life, one of the most important parts of my life, like a coach and a personal life too.

58:39Really sad because I know how the people are suffering there, inside the club and also the fans. It's difficult to accept, but the moment... When we left, what I told to the media and I told internally was my feeling and my vision. And then you cannot do more nothing because you are not in, you cannot talk. I think you need to talk during the day that you are. After, when you left or when you are stuck or when you decide to go move again, I think it's not time to talk. because I think it's only to... If you talk things for me are not right. But I think when I was there, I tried to explain where was my vision, no?

59:34And we were in a situation that was amazing because I think the training round, we finished the training round, we finished the stadium, we moved to Wembley to play, to Milton Key in too many games like this. And at the same time, we were very competitive, no? playing. But this idea of how it can affect the environment and the people outside to the people that make the decision inside. It's about to win. It's about to win. It's one title. It's going to win an FA Cup. It's going to win a Carabao Cup. It's going to win... No, but that is... It's a shame that Tottenham... Yeah, but we were winning every season because with all the circumstances that we were fighting, we spent 18 months with no one signing.

1:00:22That was a record in Premier League because all was it's true after Tottenham can say no no we had money to spend yes but not the type of money to improve to be close to win or to challenge we were challenged we challenged to win but we missed

1:00:43Gary Neville: this last step did you ask for that money because I mean you were so close you were getting there Champions League second in the league you had a team of young players that were really talented you were onto something did you ask them to invest that extra bit to go and make that difference because you were so close now it's difficult to talk about that because it was really really difficult difficult situation because one of the things that always what I like is if someone offers me a project the possibility to coach I want to know what the reality I want to know what they expect from me. I want to know what I need to do, which is the reality of the club.

1:01:28And I think what happened in Tottenham is that I really understood what they expect from me from the beginning. And of course it was tough, but I think I cannot complain. Only what I wanted to tell them is to say, okay, that is the idea, that is the strategy, the philosophy or the culture that we were creating there. but if we wanted to be competitive we need some time to make different decisions. The problem is when the assessment is not coming from inside to the club and the assessment comes from outside and when people start to intoxicate things and say no, you should win with this team you should win a title, you should okay, what is going on?

1:02:16Yeah, some time happened after long time or many years they say oh maybe the problem is this guy that is sitting here no and maybe it's not the problem maybe it's the solution but I don't think anybody

1:02:29Gary Neville: thought the problem at Tottenham when you were there was you I think everybody at the time that I remember was thinking investment if this guy the money now you know this this is a you're so close give I remember at the time people urging Daniel Levy but Gary sometimes money and sometimes our decisions sometimes are it's not only about money. No, but the right players, I mean, bring the right players in so that you could... Sometimes, we were always talking, sometimes players that are good doesn't belong anymore in certain clubs. And that is a moment because you can add, but if you don't remove, you know, this player maybe that is impossible to improve or to increase the level.

1:03:14And that is, for me, the key in all projects in the club. It's to make the decision not only to be right in the place that you're at, but also when is the moment when the players don't belong anymore. It's not good or bad players. It's to remove because they were very useful for that period, but for the next period. And that I think is a little bit, it's not to have the same, not be in the same line in this decision.

1:03:51Gary Neville: Why has Tottenham been in a position as a club that it has? You're the closest probably in terms of sort of getting close to Champions League and Premier League title in the last 20, 30 years. What is the reason that Tottenham don't succeed at that level? Why? Other clubs have, you know, Arsenal have won leagues, United, City, Blackburn, Chelsea, Leeds United won a league back in the day, Liverpool, Leicester. Why is Tottenham not succeeding at the level it should? It's a difficult question, Gary. I think from my, I can talk from my experience in Tottenham and what I can tell you, for me, it's one of the biggest clubs in the world.

1:04:36when today, too many anecdotes. People when I am around USA, America, South America, England, Spain, Europe, I don't know, is it a coincidence? Coincidence. Those are Tottenham fans. And key people that are Tottenham fans can help me. One day I arrived at a company that was, no, no, you cannot travel because it broke your seat. And then some guy said, oh, you are Bochettino. Oh, my boss is, and the boss said, no, you are going to be in the... Because it was Tottenham fan. Oh, I am in London, stop a taxi. Oh, Mauricio, I am Tottenham fan. Tottenham, Tottenham, Tottenham. For me it's a massive club with a massive...

1:05:36Following. Massive. Crazy. And now it's a club that I think has everything to be successful. Because the facilities are the best, training ground and stadium. The fans, more than 60 ,000. And the fans have passion. But I don't know. In the time that we spent there, for me, it was the best club. I think we were enjoying it because we feel that we can win.

1:06:14I really hurt myself when people say, no, Tottenham is, no, and use different words like this. I say, no, it's not like this. Tottenham have an amazing history. and it's not easy to win and it's not easy to compete. When we were competing there, maybe, maybe, I don't know, another day I was reading in a paper that maybe we deserved some title, Premier League title because of some club broke rules. But I think, no, no, no, no, but it's true. I don't say that. That was in a paper, no, in a newspaper. But I think when we were competing there, we were competing with big, people that clubs that were not building a stadium, well maybe Arsenal before, no?

1:07:03Arsenal was before and you know how we struggle when you build a stadium but you know, all this period was really, really, really tough that is why for me every season was more than win a title because we were always fighting there for the Premier League

1:07:19Roy Keane: Was there any particular players at that time that you wanted to bring in that you thought could have kind of took you to the next step, that you didn't get the green light to sign? When? Like when you were second, trying to kind of win the league and stuff? I think I can tell you, we tried, I think it was 2016, after we finished the season, we tried to sign two players, and I think it was public, and after they moved to another club, that after they won the Premier League and they beat us in the Champions League final, no? Which players were there? It's easy to...

1:07:58Gary Neville: Van Dijk? No. Mane and Wijnaldum. And yes, for different reasons we cannot achieve that. But I think it's always you need some luck to bring... Time and slight... That would have been two great signings of great players there. I remember that we were also interested in them, but they decided to move to Liverpool. And after they both beat us in 2019. The same, when you see the first, I think the first game when arrived Jurgen Klopp, playing against us in the old White Hart lane. And after a few years after, when we played the final of the Champions League, you see that it's completely a new team, a new squad.

1:08:42that when we, we keep the same structure. But that is the timing, it's to arrive in the moment. I think coaches are very good coaches. All are very good coaches, well prepared. It's timing, it's too much with the project. The timing is so important, the circumstances. But, Mauricio, it must be frustrating when those players, those same players you identified that you wanted, they're the ones that come and they play against you. Did you say to the people, those are the guys I wanted? Those are the ones. Those are the guys I wanted. Now they're playing. No, but you asked me, and I think I don't like to talk about that, because, you know, today we can't talk about it.

1:09:24But I think we are all trying to find... You can't get everybody you want. Yes, exactly. And that is not to blame the club. It's only that we were there to try to improve the squad in this moment, but for different reasons we cannot achieve to bring, you know, maybe after thousands of different players that maybe during this period that can improve us and to make better or to achieve this step that we missed, maybe to earn, no? But I think, yes, it's not a problem. This is part of the business, no? Yeah, it would still be interesting to know how many players at Tottenham wanted to sign have gone on to win things other places, though.

1:10:04Gary Neville: Yeah. Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing.

1:10:13Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S.

1:10:45national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this... Well, I think the problem is, if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis. The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. Make Mother's Day even more special at Whole Foods Market.

1:11:15Kick off brunch or dinner with quality cheese and charcuterie with no synthetic nitrates. Then go seafood. There's an abundance on sale at Whole Foods Market, where it's all sustainable while caught or responsibly farmed. At the bakery, grab seasonal treats like their strawberry pretzel cream pie, and you can't go wrong with a ready-to-heat quiche Lorraine, deviled eggs and fresh cut fruits to go. Celebrate mom with Whole Foods Market.

1:11:42Gary Neville: Harry Kane, is he the best? Obviously, you've coached Messi, so I'm not asking you, because obviously Messi went to Paris Saint-Germain, he maybe wasn't, and you only maybe coached him for a short period. Is Harry Kane the best player that you've ever coached for a period where you've seen the performance levels at the highest level, would you say? after the four five months yes when we arrived to to to tottenant he was in doubt i think he was with team sherwood he was playing six months after bilasboa left the club and i think with Tim Sherwood was playing and scored a few goals in the Premier League.

1:12:30But after when Tim left the club and we arrived, I think it was the third of the four strikers because it was a De Bayor, Soldado. And also the club wanted to sign. The plan was to sign another striker. When we saw him, we said, I think we don't need another. that we need to give the possibility to Harry Kane. It's true that there was a conversation with different strikers and it didn't happen and Harry stayed. In case to come and have a striker, for sure the club is not to keep him, it's to send him along, but it was in the last few years, it was three times Leicester, it was... He even unlocked a few clubs.

1:13:18Norwich, Leicester, different clubs.

1:13:20Gary Neville: So if you'd have brought a striker in, they could have sold him in the early days? Maybe on loan, not sold. Maybe on loan. But that was… we were pushing to try to keep, not to bring another, because with Adebayor and Soldado, I think to add another striker, to spend money on another striker wasn't for us the necessity in this moment. I think, yes, when we started to work with Harry, we saw that his mindset was determined to be successful. It's true with not the best habit, no good habit, but he after was very intelligent and quick into change that habit. Habits in terms of food or? Everything.

1:14:07Gary Neville: Training or? Everything. Everything. Everything. No? What happened? Did you talk to him or did something happen? Yeah, I think we were fighting with him, like fighting, fighting in a good way. No, fighting is too... We need to show the reality. We need to try to show the reality in the way that we assess the player and see the things. And if he wanted to be the striker that we project that he can be, or give the opportunity to be the striker, because no one can guess that he's going to be who is now. but I think it's painful because you need to say that is you put that but no it's here no you cannot do this you need to do that but why because of that yeah but I don't like I don't feel comfortable I don't it's very difficult to a player to put in a in a zone that is not comfortable for them when they are right there and say I am the I arrived here because I am the best yeah but now if you want to be successful you need to change and I think that is one the great, you know, history for us, like a coaching staff, and to try to, in between, you know, the coaching staff and the club, and him to build a player that is today.

1:15:24Yes. He deserves all the credit, because of him, because if he doesn't, didn't want in this moment, ciao. No? But I think it's in the way that you persuade, persuade, no? Persuade. It's important, that is why, how important is the coaching staff, how approach every single player is an individual work that is really important in the way that you can provide, you know, or to make, see the things in a different way. Test and then you decide in this way or in this way. Helps make your job easier. For you and your staff watching Kane growing, scoring every week, you must be like, this is good. Our job's a bit easier now.

1:16:05Do you have a goal scorer? No, we feel proud, no? We feel really proud, but it's him. And it's him and the people that are next to him.

1:16:18Gary Neville: I always remember, because we were coaching with England at the time, and we used to train at Tottenham's training ground, and we used to watch quite a few of your sessions, and you used to work, you were still one of the coaches around that time, that was still doing the hard-running sessions. You always did the hard-running sessions with the players, and you used to actually take a... Is it true at Southampton, like with Luke Shaw, that he used to go around to his house because he was eating pizzas and he used to make the players eat the right foods all the time. Is that true about the Luke Shaw story?

1:16:48Gary Neville: Is that a myth? Yes, it's like another thing that makes us proud because... OK, two questions. I think he's still eating pizzas, by the way. I think you just stopped him at Southampton, he's eaten him at Manchester. Honnêt you, honnêt you. No, no. But I think it's the priority. It's the priority. How you, a team that doesn't want to suffer, that is comfortable in a very comfortable zone, that is not only positional game, it's to play with the ball and training. I pass the ball to you, you to me and go there and move here. and yes, the positional game is very important because today you need to know what is your organization to play in position and the relationship in between.

1:17:41You need to create that relationship that know in every single moment what you need to do, how you need to move. But then you need to create some spirit that you need to feel that you are suffering. You need to suffer. You need to create some resilience, mentality, a strong mentality that when it's not possible, because if not, it's easy to give up. If I play with the ball, okay, and after the demand of the game, because the opponent made me to run, because it's better technically, or better position, or better, no, I have more quality than us, but I need to adapt to the game. And that was only more psychology, strange preparation, because only it was 10, 12 minutes on the end of the practice.

1:18:31What's the GACON? Is it called?

1:18:32Gary Neville: It's really? GACON. The GACON test. GACON, yes. GACON is a French. Explain what the GACON test is. I know you used to do that. It's not a test. It's a training session. It's a running test. It's to cover. In the same time, you go increasing the distance. In 45 seconds 15 seconds and then you increase every lap you increase X meters no, and you need to increase your Your speed Longer distance but the same time time the same time you are you start easy like Foot, no 100 or 105 meters and then is 120, 135. That sounds horrendous. It's horrendous but it's 10 minutes. 10 minutes, 12 minutes. 12 minutes.

1:19:20And that was like... It's still hard.

1:19:24Gary Neville: Who was good at it at Tottenham? Who wasn't very good? When I... Look, when we arrived, I was better than everyone. Wow.

1:19:33Roy Keane: And how old were you then? I was 40. Oh, that's still young. Yes, I was young. I was better. Look, look, but that is, if not, it's like, that was only a mentality game. Yeah.

1:19:51Gary Neville: You're just basically trying to make them suffer for 10, 12 minutes every week. Yes, and they believed that it was crazy. And then, like you say, oh, the idea of that the Pochettino staff is killing the player. You know in Southampton we ran, we ran and I always remember, for me one of the greatest players that I found here was Ricky Lambert in Southampton. I love Ricky and he made me suffer at some point after his playing but we have time. But I think it was difficult for him to run. And when we arrived, yes, it was really difficult but because the idea was no, he needs to rest. he have problems in his back he cannot run he cannot do he cannot run and how he run 90 minutes after how he's going to run if he cannot run in the training how can he run no no no he can run with the ball but no that was crazy he could do the test with the ball

1:20:45Roy Keane: yes and in pre-season what we did what we did we said we need to motivate this guy to do the last effort always in the end of the of the training session and we brought a big speaker I thought you were going to say pizza the winner gets a pizza yeah Shaw would be yes do you bring a yes bigger speaker and we put music and say okay now we are going to run with that style of music and tomorrow we don't need and they were I promise maybe we were training one hour and a half one hour 45 minutes and they were desperate to arrive to the end to go to run do the Gacon to listen to music and enjoy and it was amazing and one day was one another putting different music and that was the motivation not to and to create that spirit about to to enjoy about the training session and that was it was really amazing and you learn no you learn how to not motivate but create this this type of mentality no resilience when you speak about the players you've worked with Mbappe, Messi, Harry Keane, Neymar, is that what sets them above the rest, the good habits every day?

1:22:02Roy Keane: Is there a common trait between them players? Yeah, what I learned is that they are genius. And what I learned is that they need the whole organisation to play for one of them. You cannot have three and try to play for the three because the three are completely different and Cristiano was amazing in Manchester in Real Madrid because the whole organization played for him and Messi was amazing in Barcelona because he played or when was Ronaldinho in Barcelona or when you know it's difficult when you have three big genius because they have different understanding of the game. They like different way to play, to build, to run, to...

1:23:00You know, Messi, what he want? He want to build from back and slow tempo, quality, association, play, pam, pam, pam, pam, pam, because he has the quality to take the ball and beat one, two, three. But Mbappé, what he want? if we are deep and we recover the ball it's the space give me the ball that I run but if we play for Mbappé we cannot play for Messi but after when we play for Messi Mbappé he says I have no time my quality is to run on the space but I have not that and Neymar wanted to play with him with his ball and that is the important thing that sometimes you need to understand and then okay you need to try to create that idea of the The most difficult is for the player in the back, the midfielder.

1:23:49I saw plenty of your games. I think if one doesn't run back, you're OK. We had it with United. Cantona might be right in back, but the rest would run back. And then Cantona would win you the games. But if you've got two or three not running back... Finished. It's not a big prize. It's not easy, it's not easy. But it's about to learn, no? I think we are going to die and we still learn. It sounds like, Michel, that Tottenham were on the right road there. You know, Champions League, obviously finishing second. the mentality was coming so if he was able to get rid of some of those players and bring some more in it might have been that you could get rid of that Spurs-y tag because it seems like with that running with the belief with a player like Harry Kane that you can play through it was close

1:24:29Roy Keane: they're definitely suffering more than 12 minutes a week now aren't they well they are yeah

1:24:33Gary Neville: Rich you'll talk about Neymar because obviously Mbappe I think is understood to be the best player in the world maybe right now Messi I think is regarded as the best player maybe there's a debate over Neymar is he one of the greatest of all time he is one of the greatest of all time let's I'm just letting let Maricio know what I feel about it now because we we've done him an injustice on the air no no we we talked about Neymar a few weeks ago it's been a debate that's probably been sort of going on for maybe two months maybe on social media about is Neymar the real thing or is he just maybe a little bit of a sort of somebody on a few good years what is Neymar to you who've coached him it's not a good start

1:25:18because the question is it's a question that what I try to do is to judge the football people what I am seeing no I don't try to go people that I don't know I try not to judge like a person because I don't know what is going on inside only what I am seeing and what show the cameras or what I see when I go to the game but in that case what I can tell about Neymar this that talking about talent is in the same level of Messi Mbappé, Maradona, Ronaldinho what unbelievable quality skill no but football is not only about talent talent or skills it's about no messy have everything is good inside outside of off in on the field you know he's playing and he can play 10 years more if you want but after it's a different style of player or Christian but Dane is, he likes football, like his culture, like Ronaldinho.

1:26:37He loves to play, but he loves to dance, he loves to go away. No, no, that is public. He is like this, he enjoys life in this way, but has big, big heart. He's a lovely person, like Ronaldinho too, that I play in Paris Saint Germain. is, for me, it's not painful, but only we can enjoy only a very short period. Because we always, we try to compare with Messi and say, oh, Maradona, no? If you have the time, no? Like Messi or Ronaldinho or Neymar, no? They were very good in a very short time period, no? And of course, that is because they wanted that. They love to live like this. They are people that very, they love to create, they love to have that imagination that is very aesthetic and you become in love with this action, but also after go away or, you know, I'm going to dance or going to go for a dinner or like this.

1:27:53Gary Neville: He was a free spirit off the pitch basically. Yes, that is why they perform like this. That is why they are how they are. They are capable to do the things that they are doing on the pitch. Messi can do, you know, being serious and going home and sleeping at 9 o 'clock in the night. But Ronaldinho and Imar... Brazilians, different culture, different operations. Yes, Brazilians are different. They are different. It's samba, it's… I wish I was Brazilian. It's not better than words, it's different. Samba, like the Irish, that's what we like to do. Irish too. I'm born in Murphy, I'm half Irish. Half Italian, half Irish.

1:28:41Gary Neville: You've coached Lionel Messi, but you shared a room, your roommates with Maradona. I mean, that is like... Maradona is like a god everywhere. Yes, yes. I'm not going to ask you the question, Lionel Messi or Maradona, but just talk about Maradona in terms of particularly your experiences with him around that 94 World Cup, obviously, which was... For me, Maradona was always my icon, my idol. And it's normal, no? In 1986, when won the World Cup in Mexico, I really understand the game and started to watch football, no? But I was always, when I moved to Rosario to play in New Wales Old Boys, I was a 13-year-old.

1:29:22And where I was living always was my picture of Maradona, you know, with 1996, the World Cup. And one day that I was in New Wales in 1993, he appeared in New Wales Old Boys and went to play for New Wales Old Boys. and it's not only this that the first game that we are going to play he was with me in the in the room i was with him sorry i was with him i was there i asked permission say oh dude i can't sit here i gotta put this in this bed and and in this moment we said oh my drink i'm true more than than And for me, because it's difficult to judge, because only I seen him like my hero, he didn't disappoint me.

1:30:20That was the important thing. Because sometimes you meet your heroes and disappoint you. But that is, for me, was amazing. Because I remember when he played in Australia for the qualification to go to the World Cup in 1994, another teammate was already in this squad and we were in a bar taking a coffee before to go to sleep to the room and another teammate said oh Mauricio Diego bring something from you because my teammate bring a chair like this no Diego forgot forgot forgot me no forgot me and didn't bring nothing and Diego nothing there we are right to the to the room and we very small bed because before the hotel were not like now.

1:31:06Yes. And unbelievable that I was sleeping with Maradona. Imagine Maradona sleeping with another team. It may be impossible. And I was sleeping. When we arrived to the room, he lied to the bed, turned like this. And I was sitting there and threw something to me. And said like this. It was the sheriff of Diego. The Argentina sheriff. And when I say like this, I say, For Mauricio, I wish that you were soon, pam, pam, pam, Diogo Maradona. That was planned to give me to me. And he was in silence. He didn't say anything. Now we are going to sing. He didn't prepare there. That was amazing because he was singing.

1:31:56Have you all got the shirt? Yes, I have. Of course. But I don't want to tell where it is. Of course, no one. No, I don't want to do that. That's a beautiful story. Yes, a beautiful story of that show how he was. Yeah. Our age group, Maradona. He's the one. Watching 86 Live was great. Remember that documentary? Obviously, they've done loads of documentaries. A couple of years ago, one of his fitness coaches said, he says, I love Diego. Maradona, you know. He challenged him, but Diego, he loved.

1:32:27Gary Neville: Different character. I said I wasn't going to ask you who's the best between Messi.

1:32:33Gary Neville: But how do you separate them if you have seen them both which obviously quite a lot of people will have seen them both It's difficult when you sometimes mention Pele or George Best or sometimes players from the 50s because not some of them Obviously we've not seen them but Messi and Maradona are they equal or is the one that just slightly sits above the other? It's not fair for me to judge because my emotional relationship with Maradona because I was so close, I didn't have with Messi. In my period, I was a kid. When you are a kid, that impact is when you are young, so young, you met your hero, it's like, come on, that link, emotional link that you create is after.

1:33:18When I met Messi, I was already 50, no? And you see the things in a different way, of course. But for me, both are in the top five, you know, in the history and the best. And it's impossible to compare. Because what is doing Messi is amazing. What is, did Maradona... Yeah, but Mauricio, with the Maradona to Napoli, when Napoli were, you know, you know, for him to go there, for them to, then they win the league twice, then they win the European. It's like saying, oh, when people say things like, Yeah, but let's see if Pep can manage Burnley. You know, it's like, you know, Maradona going to Napoli at that time was crazy when he left Barcelona.

1:34:03It was like, what's going on there? And look what he'd done to him. You know what I love about Maradona and these players, comparing to me? I love Maradona's bit of madness. Yeah. I like he was mad. That's the genius, though, isn't it? Yeah, just the genius, of course, the yin and the yang. I loved that about him. He was a bit crazy. I loved that about him as well. Yeah, but you don't believe that football help to build this type of personality. Because if today you have character, what do you need to do? It's difficult to show your real character today. Of course, yeah, yeah. And I think that was the football that I missed.

1:34:38Yeah. Because when you have personality, you show. And it was easy to see who was brave, who wasn't brave, who was leader. No, wasn't a leader. And when he played, the tackles on him. Exactly. No, no. The tackles on him, it's amazing. Sendai, he put some good tackles. When I was a central back, my first... I remember Camacho, that was my coach in Espanol, I said, first action, kill the striker. Oh. Because it's not going to be yellow card. Not kill him. The second is going to be yellow card. The first never yellow card. They always say, I know as a striker, you get the first one for free. Yeah, but after, when you find a striker that were tough, say, OK, you, boom, punch.

1:35:24But after, be careful that he's coming back. Give him a tip. No, but now it's another game. It's another game. It's difficult to see this type of personality now. We don't get to see personality now.

1:35:39Roy Keane: I think Cherky's got a bit of personality, and I like that. I hope he kind of keeps that Cherky for Man City. I just think he's got a bit of personality. Yeah, but he sticks out as well, Joel, because not many people are expressing themselves like he is, like kicking the ball up. So he stands out even more. But then everybody has a comment on that. Yeah, it's brilliant.

1:36:02Gary Neville: Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. None of us understand the Chelsea project. You were there. Who's laughing over there? The whole move just went. Yeah. Just thought we lighten the mood a lot. That's not from Maradona. None of us understand the Chelsea project in terms of the eight-year contracts, the only young players, no experienced players, obviously got an experienced coach or had appointed experienced coaches. You've been there. Is it... I know it's difficult for you to answer this maybe in the way in which I'm going to put it to you, but is it as mad as it looks? Is it disorganised?

1:36:45Gary Neville: Is there a plan? I think they have a plan. They have a plan that is maybe completely different than what used Chelsea in the past with Abramovich.

1:37:03It's true that it's not easy because it's difficult for the people to understand. I think when I am thinking in new projects or in projects, I think the most important is how we can translate, you know, and to show which is the plan and what we want to achieve with that. And how is going to be the process to arrive where we want to arrive. and sometimes because in football it's difficult to explain because people doesn't listen only listen, wrestle and then because it's too many people making decisions because football I've seen is not ordinary business always I told my former president Nicola Cortese in Southampton I put him in my office football is no ordinary business it's not a and you cannot compare with another business.

1:38:04Sometimes people struggle, but I think the plan that they need to explain the plan.

1:38:10Gary Neville: Did you understand it?

1:38:16I am... What I understood didn't happen after. Maybe I was wrong. Explain that. What do you mean? No, you don't have to explain it. What are you doing? Be quiet. You can see that he doesn't want to try and go that deep, Gary.

1:38:33Gary Neville: He does, because he's literally kicked out one of the most talented and experienced managers who should basically have kept his job. And to be fair, I think Chelsea fans would want to know. But does that happen to lots of clubs? I think you have a plan, you go in and people move to goalposts. Yeah, no, Chelsea was about to win. You cannot go to Chelsea and say we are going to finish in a position that... No, because he's about to win. Because on the passing, it was about to win the Champions League and to have a Spanish player or the best player that they can sign. But now it was a completely different project.

1:39:15But it's true that... Now I'm in a big boom. I tried to help you there, Marcel. No, I tried to help you. I tried to help you. I tried to help you. No, the problem for me is about to explain and the people need to accept that these different ideas to operate. And when we arrived, it was about, I think we need to understand that when we arrived, the team was 12th in the Premier League. we didn't play in Europe no conference league no Europa League no champion league was in the process to all them the changes from one ownership to another ownership things that you need to put in place and to give the to prioritize things why I think I am disappointed with the internal things is that under our assessment and our vision was a normal process to create something solid for the future.

1:40:36To assess things and to add quality, but not as quick like the people believe that need to go. The pace wasn't that. If you see the things, we finished six, winning the last five or six games. We arrived to the final of the Carabao Cup. We played the semifinal of FA Cup against Manchester City. In both games, we deserved to go through one to win the final, another go through, but because of experience or because of different things, we didn't win. but we were in a very good way to... Which is exactly true. But after when things know much what was our vision, we said it's better to split, it's better not to...

1:41:27and to give the possibility to the club to do what they want to do.

1:41:31Gary Neville: Because they were signing players for you without coming through the coach. I remember when you first got in at Tottenham, I went to see you and it was fascinating. You set up a group of players on the left-hand side of the whiteboard, do you remember? and you said a group of players on the right hand side and you said these are the players I need to build around these are the players that I told the club that we need to move out over the next few years and we need to replace them with that so you had a planner over two years this is what you needed to do Chelsea were just bringing in five, ten players all at once so is that just too quick?

1:42:02Being fair, I support all the business when we arrive

1:42:06Gary Neville: when we sign, it was already done all the business, all the signing I was only involved in I was involved in this, I say okay to when we sign this asset because for fun I was insured in preseason and Cole Palmer that I don't want to be wrong but I think in these two we were involved in the decision but I think it's more about a philosophic idea that the coach or the coaching staff need to be involved in all this type of decision need to be part, important part of the decision. Because if not, it's not easy. I don't want to say things that are so obvious, but Manchester City is working, work, because Pep is involved in all the things.

1:42:58It's only to say only one team. But the thing is, that is so important. It's not, the coach cannot be on the corner and say, yes, no, only you coach the team. because there are too many things that are going on that players to perform, they need to be attached with the coaches. If not, it's difficult. No, I play for the club. No, the players need to play for the club after they play for the coaches. If they play for the coaches, they can play for the club. I didn't see a player play for the club and not play for the coach. It's impossible to perform. You need to connect in an emotional way with the player, with your coaches.

1:43:43And then, yes, I play for my fans. I play for the fans and I play for my club. But I not play for my coach. You are going to perform. You don't perform. It's impossible to perform. You need the connection. You need the connection, but the right connection.

1:43:59Gary Neville: Are there a lot of voices just generally involved? You said before there were a lot of people making decisions. at Chelsea? Is it just quite confusing in terms of the actual structure? Now I don't know. What was it like for you? In the moment that we arrived, we support the club in all the decisions that they already made. I think that was what happened after. I don't know. What is my intuition? That the club made the decision. But if you accept to go to Chelsea, I think it was more clear after us. After us was more clear the idea of the management of the club. I'm not complaining because it was my decision also to leave the club.

1:44:55but I think I think is the new I think to understand the new people that arrive the new ownership the new the new football the new coaches the new sporting director the new everything the new everything that we sometimes we underestimate the the analogic things right no and you it's like a in in in football is analogic and digital I think you cannot put on the bin the analogic things. Keep. Because it's going to support the digital. In technology, because now the digital is put in the VIN, the analogic way. But football is not like this. Because still it's things that you cannot measure with data or with, you know, science.

1:46:05is still a game that keeps some mystery or some mystic that you cannot identify. You cannot identify. And always I told the people, when you identify the equation that that player, that player here is going to perform in that environment, in that circumstance, you are going to be the most rich people in the world. But that doesn't exist. Yes. Because that is about to things that you need to smell things. No, it's not only data. No, shoot many times or run or not run or the through-ins or like this. No, no, no. That is things that you cannot measure with through science or numbers.

1:46:52Roy Keane: You can't measure heart, passion, determination. No, but the players are sometimes the fittest on the fitness test. You get players that will run all day for you but they don't get the... Do you know what I mean? But what is football? Football is a context of emotion. Yes. And we cannot intervene this. To say no, that is no use. That's what it's about. It's ugly. I think the hardest part you're on about recruitment, a good player at a certain club but he's good at that club. He won't be good at this club, it's just the different dynamics,

1:47:27Gary Neville: pressure, expectations, whatever. Mauricio, would you like to come back to the Premier League? Yes, one day, yes. You would? Yes, one day, yes, because I really like England. I think it's my profile of human profile and coach profile I think match very well with the Premier League, with the culture, the idea, the idiosyncrasy and the philosophy.

1:47:57Roy Keane: One years, five years, ten years, the Premier League would always welcome you back.

1:48:03Gary Neville: Maurizio, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Thank you so much.

1:48:08Roy Keane: Thank you. Thank you so much.

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