Roy’s Dream United Manager, Rice vs Caicedo & Arsenal’s Title to Lose? |Stick to Football EP 97

0:00Just before we get started, a quick thanks to our partners and clothing. We hope you enjoy the show. Gary almost sounds like he's been up all night What do you mean? You've been up all night You look like you've been up all night I slept unbelievable Good I slept till 7 o 'clock That's like I slept bad 7 o 'clock daytime Or our time Their time Right here is in my dream In Glastonbury Oh I thought he went in his bath Gary Gary, my ticket's there for you to sign, mate. Oh, you're wronging. Oh, it's just me eating the cake. Yeah, did me a favour there, Carrot. You know what, I had so many people come up to me and ask me that, you know, say, you had the cookie, you had the cookie.

0:49Yeah. I'd carried that round for three years in my bag waiting for you to do a bet with me. That's why it's so battered. It's battered, isn't it? Yeah. What game is it? That's the 5-0. 5-0 yeah you should have got one of the 7-0 as well that's the season ticket though so you don't have the can you believe that actually happened it's nuts isn't it that is mad isn't it it was 4-0 at half time that game oh that's when they were all leaving the stadium yeah it's brilliant there you go I know but I love it there you go that's even better Kevin Keegan yeah but you're you support you support a huge club like Liverpool I remember them little wins I think you're bigger I think you're bigger than that do you know what I mean Kieran you've got to show some class I love it you listening to me sorry yeah you've got to show some class what do you mean you support Liverpool do you know Kieran was Irish yeah well he's got a good idea Kieran you know no but I'm saying he follows Liverpool with their history he's like remembering oh he beat he'll be a bit bigger than that you know what I mean yeah you've got to enjoy the good times as well right don't you yeah of course but you've got to be don't get real then Kieran yeah show some class you know if you beat someone go yeah do you know what I mean I see everyone all getting giddy every time they win a football match.

2:03As if you didn't expect to win a match. Do you know what I mean, Jill? Yeah, you're right. Whatever you say, you're right. You see us getting tickets out. We beat you two... What was the biggest win against Liverpool? When we were there? Yeah. 4-0 against those. We had 10 men. Sammy Eppie got sent off after two minutes. I played in that. 10 men, right. That was a great day. But you can't get a result with 10 men? No, no. It was 1-0. It was 1-0. So the sending off was a penalty as well. so it was one they left in like two minutes and I don't think he scores up at the 70th minute and it was a penalty the game is 90 though that's another football insane isn't it oh we don't want for the first hour or 70 minutes no but the game's 90 odd minutes long you know well it's 110 minutes long now bloody extra time sometimes I look at the time it's on like 101 minutes have you got a cold no I think it's just travelling oh not used to it darling it's a lot of travelling though you are busy though I'm going to have the conversations just as I had with Nev last year with you.

3:00It's just done. No, I get time off. I do. I was working yesterday though, weren't I? I had to do... I was just saying to Jamie, I thought I was going to rock up and do a Q &A and then last minute they were like, do you mind just doing a presentation for an hour? And I thought, oh, God's sake. This was the stuff yesterday, not Monday night, right? Yeah. But it was all right. Monday night there was just so many people there. Was there? What, like eight, nine hundred people? Would it be that many? Yeah, exactly. Eight fifty. It's like you were there. Gelo's going to wait for Riety to start talking about your award.

3:33No, it was actually, yeah. I was going to talk about it. When Riety gets here, he'll have a different vibe to it. I've been told what went to talk. And it's not natural, Gary, you know what I mean? All right, I'll just sit here. Don't say award for ten minutes. This is what you do, you know. You know, when you go into the jungle, when you first start, you have to sit there and go, don't talk to each other. Because they have to wait for the cameras. Because if you suddenly start talking, it's like you're missing all the TV gold. All the juicy stuff. Yeah. I hate with stuff like that. I think I'm quite easy going.

4:02No, but I hate when... No, I am, I am. I think I'm quite easy going. No, I am. When people start telling you when to talk and when not, oh. I know. It drives me mad. They were asking us at them Legends Awards, actually, about you going into the jungle. I thought you were, I don't know. Is that the rumour? They must have got some encouragement from somewhere. I know. It must have been the negotiations. Something must need pain. tax bill coming up. What was the awards like? So basically, no, it was good. It was really good. So my first ever coach was there to present us with it, which was lovely.

4:40And he was just in his element. He was like, do you mind if I go around the room and get pictures? So yeah, he was loving it. Wayne was there. Alan Shearer. So Alan Shearer and Wayne both got told they were presenting Gary's award. So they both told the story that, like they were doing match of the day and they went oh um i'm presenting his award on monday night and then wane was sat there going i'm presenting his award on monday night but didn't dare say anything but yeah it was nice the family enjoyed it good yeah good yeah did you have a few drinks was it like a like a drinking night yeah but it was one of them where you probably have a couple of champagnes at like four and then it kind of wears off a little bit doesn't it Four in the afternoon?

5:22Well, yeah. Four in the afternoon? Yeah, well, I was getting a bit of hair and make-up and stuff, but no, it's nice. I think it's more for the family and stuff like that, but it's a bit overwhelming. They're, like, sending loads of videos of people being nice. Too many videos, is that a few too many? Why, they asked us to do one. We should have done one for you, shouldn't we? Yeah, we should have done one. To be honest, they went, we've got a couple of, a few guys who we think are going to say, like, well done to you, and I was, like, excited, thinking it was going to be you four. Wasn't it? We refused to do it, actually, Jill.

5:51It wasn't. I was like, oh. You couldn't get the right deal over the line with them. We negotiated for them. You did get a video of someone on this table. Yes, you did send us a video. Thank you. You want it? Lovely. No, not on the show, but just a private one, Gary. Ah, OK. Show us Roy's video, please, Jill. No, I can't. You can do it. No, you can show it. Show us Roy's video, Jill. Get your phone out. Come on. That shows how nice Roy is. To be fair, you go and say one word and you can't see it. So then you... I was too emotional. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd practised all day. Thanks, Hugh. Some more tea, please.

6:27You know, you drink tea outside, it gets cold quickly, so I'd be drinking gallons of it. All right, I keep it. Thank you, Kieran. Is this the nicest place you've ever had breakfast, by the way? Yeah. Look at this. Beautiful, that view is unbelievable. That view is cool, isn't it? Is that the Vatican there, then? Yeah. Yeah. He's waiting. He's waiting. We should have gone. We should have gone. Right. We should have had a little trip over there, yeah. Go on, play the video. Hi, Jim. We just sent you best wishes from the King family for your award tonight. It's well deserved and I'll be great now.

6:59Yay! Oh, snap. I think he goes to say it thoroughly. It's thoroughly. Oh, dear. You can't win. This is what you have to put up with. For your award tonight, it's... Yay! Oh, right. And then he goes, it's well deserved. Do you want me to be scripted, Jill? No, no, it was lovely. You know what? It made us smile. Brilliant. So, yeah, thanks. Well done, Jill. You deserve it. Oh, thank you. You do. I think it'll probably be you next year. Do you like getting dressed up and not having a night out like that? I don't like getting dressed up, no. Them nights can be torturous, can't you? I've been to a few of those nights.

7:38No, the problem is it's nice. Yeah. It's a good charity. Yeah. Oh, yeah, and obviously it's a good charity. Fantastic. You know what I mean? Get me here for it. Did you go to Riding? Go to London. I went to I've been to a couple I think I went to I think Beck's got one Lampard I think it's a Lampard Yeah The first one I went to because obviously it's like a it's not a sky but it's a little bit of a sky I think Jeff Reeves does it and stuff like that Yeah yeah yeah So the first one I went to I don't think you were going and I was saying what's it like he said I can guarantee you he said you'll end up pissed at four o 'clock in the morning about Sam I'll have time He just You did do you Did you Oh Sam Sam wasn't there.

8:19Steve Bruce was there. It was Bruce, you know, yeah. Yeah. The time we went, I ended up at a bar with Scolzi and Sam Alldice. About two, three o 'clock in the morning. Yeah, I did. No, it is, yeah. It's crazy when... I don't like all that, though. You know where, like, you go upstairs or you go somewhere and it's like only certain people can get in this area and I hate all that. I'm like, I just want to have a drink. You're like a VIP area, Tom? Yeah, but it was like, you can come in, you can't. You'll have turned it down, Roy. You'll have been offered it. I don't know, Gary. I don't know. It keeps you, like, turning things off.

8:50You're not putting that out. I think it's a good chance. If it was charity, I'd probably go, Gary. Yes, I would. It's like I keep getting every year I say to you, will you become the soccer aid manager? I get no reply. Every year. Four years of asking. They did the auction doffer game, and it was like, obviously, you could bid to put a football team in. So they're doing it, and I'm like, oh, this is really nice. and it got up to like 50 grand or something, which was really good. And then they went, I was thinking, I wonder who the managers are going to be. So, Jill, you're going to be one manager.

9:24And I think it's Alan Sheehy was the other, so I was like, right, we're going Sunderland Strips. What's the best thing you've bought at a charity auction or the worst, if you know what I mean? The best thing I buy at charity auctions, I've stopped buying memorabilia and merch. I buy experiences like a meal or a trip. Yeah. I bought remember that we were at and I bought tickets for Concord and I was in a battle with another player at United who was it? come on ex-striker and it was but it was a bit of banter he was at another table and two tickets for Concord and I went silly money like and also Charity was like I think I ended up paying you couldn't lose though could you?

10:06obviously not obviously yeah but me and Teddy were like two grand four grand six grand eight grand ten and everyone at my table was like go on go on I'm all cheers I venture up to like 26, 28 grand and tell you when you can have them it was for charity he did you over that night really didn't he he did Jill he did unfortunately I was just about to say at one more night you can have them and then tell the next part of the story so you go to New York remember you had an injury didn't you yeah there's a part two I know but that's really for them Not long after, before that I had my hip operation.

10:44And I had these tickets for Concord. At some stage, at some stage you have to use them. What's that in here, fellas? I had my hip operation, it was like, you've got to rest here for a while. But I got a couple of weeks off. I went to New York, obviously, them tickets. And what you do in New York, you do a lot of walking. So I was doing a lot of walking not long after my hip operation. It's clever. So you're meant to sit and rest and you did like 30 ,000 steps. My wife, Teresa. Yeah. You did a great time. You're a bit late, right? No, I was just trying to... I was waiting on the lift. It's just like there's so many people.

11:20I couldn't get in the lift. I was on the fourth floor. I had to walk up, look at my head. So we just want to say, do we think Tony Adams is right? Yeah. Good point, actually. In what respect? No, no, no. No, no, no. I've only said you were late. I've been late on the time for training. Thank you. No, no, no, you can't... Can we FaceTime Tony Adams? Can we FaceTime? Go on, then. You know Tony Adams' son, don't you?

11:49That's all that's his son, honestly. This hotel is amazing, though, isn't it? I couldn't find where to flush the toilet last night. I think I used the mouthwash as, like, shower gel or something. I was like, it's too posh for me. The alarm clock was going off. I couldn't close the curtains. I was like, I just need a premier in. But I do appreciate it. But this is lovely. It's not bad, eh? Righty, we've all congratulated Jill on her award. I know. I'm so pleased for her. And righty, I said to join names like Ian Wright. It was a real honour. No, it was. Was it really good, though, Jill? It was quite emotional.

12:25No, it was lovely, yeah. It was nice. Just having the family there and everything. The recognition, finally. Yeah, well, I think it's just like, sometimes because I hate like compliments and praise and stuff like that. I don't get much of it. Definitely not from you. But then I think kind of, I don't know, it was nice. Did you have to slip into that? Okay, let me let them see that. I'm not always jovial jokey, Jill. Did you do a serious kind of like thank you? Yeah, I did do a thank you. I just kind of went round the room and yeah, said a few thank yous and then said like, because Niall Quinn, Peter Reid was there and I was like, obviously I remember being nine years old like singing on the terraces at the stage of my light.

13:05All these names you mentioned, I'm really wishing I was there now. I know why they'll end up in the battle for it right now. But I wish you could have come. If you were available, would you have came? Yeah. Would you have? For you, yeah. Thanks. Nobody else.

13:26How do we think it'll end this? Because, I mean, he's not going to hang around, is he? Oh, listen, it's just a matter of... Is a dead man walking, as they say? We're talking about, have you got two or three months? No, we've got two or three games. It's Wild West. That's it. It has to be a philosophy throughout the club. Why would you play a system if you're saying you don't have the players to play? We won the game and the manager had to go for a meeting on the Monday to kind of justify why he played a different way. How much more grace do you need in respect of a team that's got to, like, progress and do better than what they're doing?

13:55It's not coming from the media or us, or people that run us back to zone, supporters. I'd like to see Atletico Madrid, Simone Gugna. I think he would just create havoc, but good havoc. He speaks his mind because he's got personality. And then people dig him out.

14:13Right, we're in Rome. So the first... When in Rome? When in Rome, we have to name an Italian, the ultimate Italian five-side team. Wow. Start with... We have to agree on it. Well, we just have to... If there's a dispute, we'll have a vote. It's got to be Dino Zoff. It's got to be Dino Zoff. World Cup winning goalkeeper. Oh, Buffon. Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, he's dying. He was 40. He was 40, wasn't it? Right, he was 40. You shouldn't get credit for your age, if you know what I mean. He's done well for longevity to get to the World Cup and win it at 40. Fantastic. Oh, listen, I want to describe it.

14:45I always think that's funny. But you're right, Ron. It's your birthday. You say congratulations because it's your birthday. I know, yeah. Congratulations, what? You're not dead. You've made it. Yeah, that's a good shout-out. Buffon's got to get a mention. We'll give him a mention. Especially when all that stuff happened with Juventus and everybody wanted to leave and he stuck with them. How many games did Buffon play for Italy and how many games did Dino's off play? I scored against Buffon. Did you? Has anyone scored against Dino's off? Let's put some science around it. Was it a charity game? No, it was England under-16s.

15:14Oh, funny. Jamie likes that one too. We never check on it, we'll. Behind closed doors. The coaches was the referee, was it? You haven't seen it. Have you seen the guy on social media? He's pulling people up on her podcast. Oh, brilliant. Carol. Is that right? Yeah. Anyone who tells lies on podcasts, come to the stage. Embellish their stories. His name's Carol Prince. Is that right? Well, you've got to watch him because what happens is... Have we been pad out? Not yet. Not yet. Maybe now. No, but the thing is, is that what he does is, is that people who tell them, he kills them. With like a HMRC, okay, come to the floor, come, come.

15:50Come to the stage. And then they give all their, what they said they'd done and I've done this against him and I've played against him. And then he says, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no. And he says, I've got the receipts. I've got the receipts. And then he puts, but then what he'll do as well, like he done one for David Bentley the other day. Done David Bentley out about something he said, but then he had to give him a tax rebate because he said, no, no, no, he was right with this. But honestly, I think, you know what? Even if, I don't care what people say. Some people got vexed about it.

16:22Some people been vexed about it, but it's brilliant. It's a brilliant addition. Pull the people up, you mean? I think it is. What goals they've scored are? And people they've played against when they weren't even in the team. It's when people are throwing a bevy on a story, basically. And he's, whoa, to the stage. It's brilliant. Lee Clarkson, he played against Zidane. He went, no, no, no, no. You know what I think he should do? Oh, we all want to be careful. You know what I think he should do? But I scored against Buffon. What he should do, though, what he should do is not do, he should do it, stretch it out.

16:54so he's not doing so many, but there are people talking so much shit that he can probably do it, but save it because it's so good. Isn't that right? I'm going to try and get you one. What's it going, Sam? Carol Prince. Yeah. Carol Prince. Carol Prince. Carol Prince. HMRC. HMRC. Come, come, come, come, come, come to the table. They don't get the actual person, do they? They just, do they get to see anything back? No, because what are you going to say? He's got receipts that you are lying. It's got the receipts. Do you think you could be on there with your Tony Adams late denials? No, no, no, no.

17:27Because hopefully Carol Prince will look at it and find Arsene Wenger saying something about me not being late. But the thing is, the more you think about it, you lot probably started, so you said, yeah, right, he's late. The fact is, is that Tony, you're talking about Arsene Wenger and George Graham changing training for me? It doesn't even make sense. George Graham would change training because I'm late? But back in the day, you were powerful. Oh, I wasn't that powerful. Tony Adams needs to come to the stage. Get Tony Adams. Right, OK, here we go. The keeper, Dino Zoff, 112 caps, won a World Cup and the Euros, are we saying?

18:09Italy didn't. Older player ever to win the World Cup. Did he win the Euros? I don't remember him winning the Euros in my time. He won the Euros as well in 68. However Buffon 176 caps Euros and World Cup And he won a World Cup as well So I mean But to win the Euros in 1968 And win the World Cup in 1982 I know but 1968 There was only like four teams in the finals There was In the finals Remember it was really hard I think I'm exaggerating But there was only eight teams Wow it's a good You know what We're stuck on the keeper in the arc, James Because I think that's But Buffon We know him as a character Has that come into it?

18:47I'll go for Buffon I'm born on the same day as me as well. Really? Bufon, 176 caps. Go with Bufon. How old's it? Bufon. Only one of us have scored against... Bufon, okay, Bufon. Maldini. He said he chipped up. Defender, Maldini. Well, we can be a rider, but Maldini and Beresi have to be in it, surely. Okay, Maldini and Beresi at the back. Yeah, I said Maldini. Two defenders and a five or seven. Yeah, do we? Go on. Plus, they can do everything, them two, can't they? We're going to have a midfielder stroke, number 10, and we're going to have a forward. No, it's six a side, so goalkeeping five players, right?

19:17No, it just says five a side. Depends what formation it's worth. No, it's five a side, yeah. You're going to go for Paolo Rossi up front, aren't you? Who's the midfielder? Who's the midfielder? If you've got Beresi and Maldini, then you need some kind of creative, like, a Baggio-y. Pirlo. Yeah. Pirlo. Oh, Pirlo, yeah. Oh, you've got to have him in there. Pirlo, controlling it. Pirlo. He used to only run, didn't he, like 5k game, just chilling. Is that the game against England? You couldn't get near him that one? What was that? What were you doing at 2012? Everyone was saying you'd get after him and he just ran the short end.

19:52He just ran it. I remember there was one where he dropped... Remember the goal he set up? I think the goal he set up for someone. He dropped off right into the centre-half. He knocked it straight over there. Up front. Oh, he had four already, so there was only one more? Right, he should pick the forward. Who's the top Italian goal scorer? like who's the top Italian like Totti is it or Baggio Baggio or Del Piero Del Piero oh Del Piero's got to be in it I keep forgetting about Del Piero Del Piero's got to be in it can I just mention Zola just to mention Zola oh Zola yeah I think Del Piero was Zola was Zola was he an out and out goal scorer Del Piero's everything wasn't he he wasn't an out and out goal scorer who's Italy's best ever goal scorer who's Del Piero trying to find that out Gigi Rive as someone is it The 1970 fella?

20:40Reva. Reva. Is it him? He's the top. Is he? Yeah, I've never seen him play though. Played in the 1970 World Cup. Played in the 1970 World Cup. With Bonasenna. He scored the goal against Brazil, Bonasenna. Is it him? It's hard to be the top goal scorer. Yeah, it's Reva. Right, who's the new player? Pelo and we're going fifth player Del Piero. Yeah. Great player. I feel like you can't leave him out. I think it's because Pelo Russi's might be. Even her names are cool, aren't they? Like you made, like Roy King. No, no, I haven't got a... but you made it something what did you say Jill because Roy Keane's quite boring that's like a sit-in-the-feeler's name no but you bring your name to life don't you like Chris Brown the singer brought it to life it's quite a boring name isn't it that's really good yeah that's boring isn't it still boring this episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing So we've got community questions from our community.

21:40And we're starting... And the first one is from George, who's in Nottingham. It's been reported that Ange Postacoglu may be sacked after just seven games in charge. How long should a manager be given? You know what? I was thinking about this on the flight over here. And I was thinking, when they sign a contract, should they be given a season? because it stops all that speculation. I don't know about the season. The season's along if you're like, teams who are panicking now, particularly if, like, just say, for example, Forest couldn't get away from the bottom and they're panicking about relegation.

22:15The year is, I don't think you should be guaranteed a year, but obviously seven games is not right either, is it? Almost have a transfer window. Almost like January or something like that. Like, you can't change your manager. I think they have something like that in Italy. You'd get more manager sacks. I think you'd get more manager sacks if you said manager. I think clubs would say, we have to change because we can't change after this so you don't even have a chance but the staff might say he'll give him a four or five game until the end of February see how we are going into March and all of a sudden thinking he can't you would just take a risk with your manager if you weren't sure about changing no but I think if you had any doubts you'd sack him wouldn't you if you had any doubts you'd think this is why there's too much on the line for people like even if they make the kind of like they appoint a manager and then it's not going well like you look at Ange at the moment how long do you wait but you know right I'd like to know the stats of when they change a manager how many managers then don't turn it around you know what I mean that's not everyone thinks change the manager and you change the manager the results still don't we've seen that over the last few years and obviously the pressure in the premiership is extreme though on managers would have been near the top or the bottom I think it would be worse the next few months because the promoted teams look like they look good right are in with a chance with the last few years you've mentioned it Jamie everyone's thinking well they'll probably go back down there's definitely more panic for like Boris and maybe Brent for these other clubs where we've been stable the last few years the thing with Angus though is that it's not coming from the media or I saw people that were on his back to zone supporters we're only commenting on the supporters who were going for do you know where the turmoil comes you get rid of the manager a lot of the staff were leaving so you're bringing the manager new staff all the time it's chopping I think he'll get to the next international break is this one not obvious if you think about has there ever been a manager selected with a bigger departure of style from new note at Ange I've never seen seven games that Ange's had he's trying to obviously play his own way in which he plays it's completely What's that say about the owner?

24:03Is this not obvious that he was going to struggle, like, trying to adapt them in the first season? Well, this is what I'm saying. Who makes that decision? Because the least you want to do for the players, you want the players to say, OK, he's gone, but at least this fellow comes in, we do the same thing, like what's slot done with Liverpool? He came in and let them do exactly what they're doing. It's a total different... I understand that, right? But surely the football... I go back to football intelligence, but surely if your manager comes in with a different style or whatever it might be, the players can adapt to it.

24:27We're talking about styles. Yeah, but if you're a clever player, the top players, I think, I don't know what can be a change. Pick up things pretty quickly. Go, you want me to do that? But Roy, if you're Milenkovic as a centre-back, you need cuddling and you need protecting from a tight back four and you've been used to having midfield players in front, all of a sudden you've got to split. You've got to split here and you've got to start playing out. Then all of a sudden you've got to start playing one-on-one. You mentioned that player, so he needs to play in that system for the rest of his career.

24:49No, but let's say you're Everton. You've recruited Keane, Tarkovsky, you put Milenkovic in at Forest. Those types of clubs have signed those players as sturdy back four centre-halves that have got basically full-backs tucked in. They've not signed them to be one-on-one centre-halves. I was trying to think of another club the other way, where Tottenham with Romero and Van der Ven. They've got those players that mean they can play one-on-one. It's such a departure for the players. I get that, but sometimes if you're a defender and you're used to it, I still think you can speak to other players and go, for example, we saw Liverpool give away a goal.

25:19Situations in a match where you go, listen, whatever what your philosophy is, certain situations in the game go, just sit in. You don't have to be gung-ho for the next five, ten minutes. But Andy's so prescriptive about how he tells his team to play. He's full-back, his centre-backs have to go... He's actually been back three in the last couple of games, I think maybe for one of those reasons. Yeah, but he's making them do things. It's like Amorim coming in from Van Ten Hag. All of a sudden, you're asking Bruno or players like that to do completely different things. Yeah. I was going to say about midfielders.

25:46Your job as a player to behave to a dance. But Roy, I'll give you an example at United, right? And you'll be able to sort of testify to this. You play in midfield with Paul Scholes or Nicky Butt-right for five, six years. Once Sebastian Varon comes in and you've got to play in a three. Now, I'm not saying that you didn't start playing well or Scolese or Butty didn't start playing well, but all of a sudden the dynamic was like, what's going on? I know we had the same manager, but it was such a massive change for us that. It was like, I didn't have my two strikers to play in two. I was like, my game had gone a little bit in terms of on the ball.

26:12You probably didn't have the passes into the front. So everything changed. To me, it's like that. But what you do as a club, if you think you're bringing Verón and these people and the manager are trying to try something different, then you have to adapt it. So if you don't have two options, you've got a model, you only have one, then you have to learn we didn't adapt very well we won one league in four years I get that whereas previously I mean if you think about that's just not on one situation I think the changing system and that dynamic definitely what happened when United win 20 or 30 years won't win a league or Liverpool that happens to clubs Gary you can't just pin it on no but as soon as we went back to two up the minute we went back to two up we started winning leagues every year again because you're more familiar with it yeah it just felt like oh my god it's normal alright well let's when you talk about we've been two up front name the two up front whoever they might have been We had Rooney and Sahar up front.

26:56Fucking exactly. You know what I mean? You're talking about really good players. But Ronaldo, all these boys, they were making a difference. Not necessarily because all of a sudden you're two up and you had better options. Do you think any team, though, any team who gets success, who plays in a pragmatic way, they're always wanting to change. They're always wanting to go, OK, now we want to do this. Do you agree with it or not? It's always like, even David Moyes up West Ham. West Ham, yeah. They've won the European Trophy. No, we want to go to the next thing. That's not the wrong guy, though, is it?

27:24No, no, I'm just saying, and I think that's one of the reasons you mentioned there, too. I think that's one of the reasons he comes in. It's like, okay, we're going to bring in maybe a different type of player, and eventually, that was always going to be a... I think, surely as a player, you're working with different systems, but you go into national football as different. Surely that's part of your growing, or if you're a coach or a manager, or you're a pundit, you're working with different companies and you're experiencing new things. Jim, you've mentioned before, you kind of went back to England because of Capello.

27:47Yeah. And sometimes you go, I just want to learn from a different style. When Ferguson was, remember he was going to retire and Sven was supposed to become and I remember thinking it would be nice to learn off something different so that's surely the players especially at Nottingham Forest these players must know listen this manager mightn't be here for two or three we have to be ready to adapt so what happens what happens when another manager comes to adapt Anger and he's got a different style again will they be going well that's suitors you're talking like bookends though here you're talking like completely I think fans have got a right to want to be more entertained when they get used to sort of like a certain way of playing like Forest or West Ham they think right okay but I think you can't go from say for instance you can't go from say David Moyes or Nuno to Graham Potter and Ange the departure is so big you've almost got to say right okay how do we get there over a period of two or three because you've not just got to transform the players you've got to transform your recruitment you've got to transform the mentality you've got to transform everything but that's where the manager that's where the time comes into it the manager you must know you're not going to get that time so it is on Ange a little bit but if Forrest got to Swansea and they're winning a few minutes ago are you telling me that's down to one or two set pieces towards the end that's down to a footballer going, we're in Swansea, a championship, we're in a winning position and when a new manager goes in, you do need a couple of wins at the first few games or else straight away and obviously he had a difficult start.

28:58His first four games are away from home. You'll defend him a little bit here. First game was at Arsenal, I think, obviously. So straight away you go, and what happens, you don't win in the first four or five and everyone then, that's where the pressure piles are. But obviously Andrew's got to also say to the players, let's roll your sleeves up a little bit as well and dig in. But when you're saying they can adapt, you know, like midfielders, if they're not like workhorse how do you become that? You know, if he wants to do this massive pressing game, if you haven't got the legs, how do they suddenly be able to do that?

29:25They've been used to sitting back, haven't they? But I think if you're going to be a footballer, legs are pretty important, do you know what I mean? But if you've got Chris Wood up front, if you've got Chris Wood up front, you've got Milenkovic at the back as an example. It's very difficult for those two players to be able to push up the pitch. One can't press from the front, and the other one can't really play a high line. So think about Angie's game and how he plays. He does push them up and he wants that confidence. They're going to be frightened to death doing that. I would have been... Yeah, Forrest had their success last year.

29:49I'm playing that. It was perfect. They were deeper last year. But if these players at Forrest, traditionally, going back to Brian Clough where they play lovely football, is that the only way now they can go forward as a football club? In Europe and going, we're just going to sit in. No, I agree with the change and transition, but it can't come so, like, as a big shot. And maybe Ange is not probably trying to do that. He's probably not going, lads, I want you all freestyle and go for it. Maybe he's going, I do want you to sit in a little bit, but maybe just not doing it well. How do we think it'll end this?

30:15because, I mean, he's not going to hang around, is he, the owner? I don't think. Oh, listen, it's just a matter of... He's a dead man walking, as they say. Already? Right, he's old story. You always look, unfortunately for us, we sit here and we comment on clubs and we always go, the next game, just... Have they got Chelsea? I think Forest of Chelsea. Just say Chelsea going to win 2-0. We'll all be thinking, it'll be gone because owners then have had two weeks to sit in the international break. They don't do it before then. So it's almost managers... We're talking about, have they got two or three months?

30:42No, they've got two or three games. The Wild West is crazy. He should be given a chance. He's got to be given a chance. But if Ang goes in there, if you're a manager, you're not about doing your homework as a player, what club would I like to go to? If you're a manager, if Ang was sitting there, you'd go, Ang, you know if you don't get a good start, you could be gone after two months, You'd go, yeah, no. I think they know that. Can we go talk about it? Do you think he really does think after two months? Yeah, shake hands with the devil. He said it'd be, yeah, right. Surely he's got a given chance.

31:04I hope, yeah, I'm not saying that's right. It's absolutely wrong. The next question is from Lisa, who's a United fan. All right, Lisa. Manchester United, four points off the tally this time last year when Eric Ten Hag was verge of getting sacked. Cameron was to leave Manchester United. Who would replace him? Toss a coin. Honestly, it's just bring someone in. I mean, he's obviously not been sacked yet. Do you think the Sunderland game gives him a period of sort of grace? You're always going to be Sunderland. What did I say to you? I know. You know what I'm saying? When you say he gives him grace, from the time he's been there to now, how much more grace do you need in respect of a team that's got to, like, progress and do better than what they're doing?

31:45How much more time? I don't know what you say. If Sunderland beat him, oh, that's it. It's like leading up to this point now. Maybe we should be talking. I know it's a question, but our tone sometimes can be a big pressure. It's a mad world of football management now, isn't it? I always say give the man a chance. Still, Roy? Yeah, I'd still say give the man a chance, absolutely. Another week. who's the managers that have been speculated Gareth Southgate I've seen again that came up is there a manager that let's just go to Utopia where you can pick any manager in the world right now and bring him in you know that that manager is going to be a success at Manchester United is there one manager that you think you don't know Gary I agree but my point is if you could say let's just go off the shelf and pick one manager plump them in that sort of manager's chair at Manchester United and think right that's as certain as you can probably get that that person is going to be successful who is that manager Roy I've said it for years I'd like to see Atletico Madrid Simone go in there Simone I'd like to see him go in there I know his mate's gone to Arsenal but I think he would just create havoc but good havoc I think he'd rock up to that place and say this is how you do things no guarantee but I'd just like to see his personality even his track record Conte I think I'd go with that I'd go with Simone I don't I like Simone people might think styles of football they beat Real Madrid but they scored five last weekend This idea that, again, he's defensive.

33:06Yeah, he doesn't like his team's giving up too many goals or chances. But they can play a bit. They're fighting. Yeah, definitely. They can play. Some of Liverpool a few weeks ago, the team aren't as great as they were a few years ago, but they're still that fighting spirit. He's on the sideline causing, you know, he got sent off that night, didn't he? I like a big person. I think he gets talented players working in a ridiculous way. His mate was with him at Arsenal, the director of football. He was a big part of the success, I think, at Lettico, the recruitment side of it. Yeah, that's a good shot, Roy.

33:39This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Next one, Brian from Croydon. He's an Arsenal fan, though. Is the next one a Liverpool fan?

33:53It can be, if you want. Good laugh, James. Does the last week mean that Arsenal will now win the league? You know something. What last week done was made, it reaffirms to people that, listen, we're in there with a great chance, with a great squad. I think we've got the best squad in the league at the moment. I don't care what anyone says. And now it's up to the manager making sure that he puts the right piece on the pitch at the right time, simply because I've seen a couple of results where I think he should have started with different people and get the game done. But then he does his thing in respects of bringing people on as finishers.

34:28He changed at Newcastle, didn't he? He was more positive at Newcastle. He was more positive, and the thing we needed to be. Because I think that when you look at last year, I don't think there's one time that when Liverpool slipped up, we were able to benefit. We didn't do it. And I think that when we'd done that against Newcastle, it made them realise, OK, this is a step forward in respect of what you're trying to do to make sure that people see that you're definitely in this fight to stay as long as you can. Now that Arsenal are top, everyone's saying, oh, it's Arsenal's now because we've seen what's happening with Liverpool.

34:57I'm not right off City. but of course Arsenal are in the driving seat and now this is where we're going to see the mentality and how the players now finish this off they've done it three times finishing second they know what to do they've been chasing obviously City and Liverpool for the last few years it's their time so it's up to them now mentally to go and do it different expectation alright maybe they're expected to win it you know something Roy they shouldn't be afraid of saying that either no and this is the thing Arsenal are in the position to go and do it to go and do and this is what I'm excited about it Do you think you need Jochen Rez scoring more though because you're always going to need people scoring more If you look at Haaland for City obviously Arsenal are getting a lot of goals around him aren't they imagine if you put Haaland in Arsenal any team no no no you put Haaland anywhere put him anywhere especially in this kind of form you know in this kind of form Roy said about expectation there on Arsenal in the last week because of people I'm not quite sure at this stage that that will bring a pressure to them I think if they're in that Arsenal dress room now, I think even Mikel Arteta, their eyes should be wide open saying, that prize is actually there now.

36:04I think for the first time, I reckon they actually might just sit in that dress room and think, there's a long way to go, but I actually think, how is this? And we've got to knuckle down and win. I think generally they must be thinking, almost like, I need too big for your belly, it's there. The only thing that can stop you is that thing that's probably stopped other teams in the past where you get to March, April, and you want it so much, and the support want it so much. That's where Liverpool need to hang on the shoulder I think at the moment Liverpool aren't Liverpool at the moment and I agree with you what you said I think we've all said they haven't been there I think Arsenal got the best squad they're looking obviously better than Liverpool right now and Liverpool might take a few months to integrate They'll come and do a bit They'll come back I wouldn't imagine that but I think what Hughes used to do I think Fergus used to say if you're sort of three or four points off the lead in getting into January With a team that haven't won it as well Exactly and I think if Liverpool could find themselves even if they were five or six points behind even in February he wants it more than that right he didn't I mean listen I've not I'm not speaking negatively about Liverpool I think Liverpool will get better because I don't think their actual points they've got on the board they probably don't deserve for their actual performances in some ways when you're watching them and I think there will be still moments before Christmas where they drop points in games you don't expect it of course Arsenal drop points that's football but I do think if Liverpool could almost do that and City that sort of Manchester United thing of old that you used to do and maybe just wait there do you think they could be a bit nervous they could be a bit nervous without a doubt yeah without a doubt they're doing well you know what I mean ideally what you want is Arsenal to run away with it I mean run away and then you know to a point where even if you lose a couple of games that's unlikely that right this is what I'm saying yeah but this is what I'm saying I'm talking to win your first one you very rarely just run away with it and blitz everyone I can't see that yeah but you just mentioned about utopian picking a utopian manager I'm trying to pick a utopian scenario.

37:56Well, that would be... Yeah, that's perfect. Right? So what I'm saying is, that's how I'd love it to go, Roy. It doesn't go like that. So what we're seeing with our team is that we've had the experience the last three seasons of what you should do and how you have to finish it off. And so this is when it comes to February and March. That's when we'll see... So we're just that recent. When did Arsenal last win the league? Two, five and four, wasn't it? And it was the three seasons before that. They'd finished second as well or something like that. It's the Invincibles, was it? Yeah. I think the Invincibles, was it?

38:252-3-4? Oh, sorry. Do you think if Mikel Arteta was offered the Champions League or the Premier League now? I mean, I'd say Premier League all day long, but Arsenal have never won the Champions League. It's obviously a big... That's a big ambition as well. I think he'd take the Premier League. He'd take the Premier League, yeah. Well, if he could only pick one. No, not first. He couldn't have never won the Champions League. No, I think that Mikel, because we're talking about the person, he would want the Premier League. I think for the manager, I think he wants the Premier League. That's what I think he'd want, James.

38:52I think the fans obviously would want it because it's horrible when people say, you'll never sing that. So I think that's something that I would like. But I think he'd want the Premier League and then he can have that large XL and let's go for the Champions League. Let's go for it now. The first man to win the Champions League for Arsenal would be pretty special. Yeah. Just thinking about it, I said on Sunday, Saturday after the Chelsea Liverpool game, and I saw your piece on Sunday night where you disagreed with me about, I said that I thought Cossado now was the best midfield player in the league and two midfield players over there.

39:26What a goal, by the way. Yeah, and I mentioned, obviously, Gravenberge and Rodri over the last couple of years and Declan Rice. They're the sort of competitors for that. So obviously McAllister's done well at Liverpool as well and there's a couple of others. But who do you see as being the best? If you could put one player into United or to City now and it was Casado or it was Declan Rice, who would you say was the best midfield player in the league? I'm just jumping here to something as well. Scolzi, to be fair, when I was with him yesterday, he's a big fan. I'm a big fan of his. but he mentioned Tonali of Newcastle yeah as better than those two well he I think he did yeah okay I imagine the two lads at Newcastle have done brilliantly well I mean Tonali their midfield's been brilliant to be fair when you watch the game against the but you do watch he does definitely have an impact I'm probably not going with anyone apart from Declan Rice best midfield playing the league I'm a big fan of Declan Rice to be honest I just think he's got a bit of everything I like now that he's pushing forward a little bit more and I just love his work rate his endeavour and I think what people always like to see when you speak about the goals is the 30 yarders and whatever else but he's back in his own box like blocking shots and yeah I would probably pick that's him yeah he's kind of going with Rice every day of the week over Casado just that little bit that package he's got a little bit extra on all the other parts of Casado I'd think I'd go with Rice Declan Rice emphatically Rice you don't want to close off yeah Declan Rice I'd have to go with an Irish fella didn't I Rice

40:52I always have to get that in. His performances speak for themselves. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. From Rory, can a coach really be so stuck on a formation? You see it happen though, don't you? I think if you look at Man City and the way they get so caught up, I think it becomes a bit of stubbornness sometimes. they're like this is my way and it's the only way we're doing it but then when it's successful and you know it's successful because players are carrying out the plan what the manager does and other players whatever they know what the system is but you can't stop them because players are on form doing in the system why would you change it yeah we look at our own experience we've all played for some brilliant managers and they weren't all well I speak of the ones I worked under they weren't necessarily set in their ways and these guys were winning the big prizes.

41:44That's the way I look at it. I think probably most managers and where I think Amarillo's different is that they all favour a system, I would say. But what they never change is the style in some ways. So you think of sort of Klopp's style. No matter what formation it is, you know what his team are going to do. Ferguson, you know, attacking a gambler, winger, whatever. Pep sure passes through the middle. So sometimes he'll play a dime and two are front footy. his style is a system if you know what I mean I'd love to ask him this will probably happen when he loses his job probably but what is it about that system that you think gives you more he must think his team have got more chance of winning what is it that you think so I understand I always think when a team get promoted and they play three at the back and I think okay maybe the manager's thinking that because he's got he's thinking set pieces I've got three centre backs I've got three big people to defend set pieces I've got my five at the back because we're going to be under pressure I can get why teams coming up play that system but for me it always seems like a pragmatic system a system that might be hard to play against not so much for United but it's not sort of on the front foot you can always be pushed back I'm talking about the system the one thing I find strange about United going over last year and going back to the league table last year and the league table is always United are on minus goals I find that amazing you know they're behind on goals It's not as if United are winning, losing a few games, but they're plus 15 goals.

43:13So there's still that element of entertainment there. United are minus goals. After 50 games, Roy, in charge, he's plus two. Oh, he's plus two under 50 games. Yeah. Wow. Man, United's manager. Joseph, about the system. I know that obviously Amarim has said that the system isn't a concern. But you are asking, who grows up in their first 20 years of playing football or 15 years of playing football from 5 to 20, playing wing-back now. So you're asking someone, in any part of the world or in Europe, if you think about it, no kids' teams. I mean, if you think about learning a way of playing, no one, and that wing-back role is really quite nuanced in terms of where to be when you're attacking and you're defending.

43:55You need to know when to do that and when to do that and when to go forward and where to be on the back post. For me... So how long do you need, like, how long do you need to, like... When the manager came in at United, obviously he was obsessed with getting to pre-season so you're going to go, at least that's your chance to work on the training pitch. I know as well this year when he got beaten by Grimsey and they're already in Europe or they'll have all the free weeks to work on it now. But how long do you work on a system where people go, yeah, we've got it. How many sessions do you need to get used to playing with wing-backs?

44:21Yeah, so those wing-backs are a problem, I think, because you find it like Masraoui and Dalot. So are we talking about, is it the players or the system? What's the problem? You can't ignore the system with this one because of the fact you're asking players like Ahmad and Dallow and Masraoui and Doggy to play wing-backs that probably maybe Doggy has, but the others haven't played before. So why would you play a system if you're saying you don't have the players to play? And the other one, the biggest problem is the best player in the club and has been the best player for six, seven years is definitely better either as a number 10 in a central position with a bit of a licence to flow, or as a three in midfield where he's basically got two behind him or he's got basically sort of like a one here and a one there.

44:59He's either having to play deep in a deep line too, or he's having to play almost like as a wide player and chase full-backs back when we're defending. I don't think any top club, and I know in the past few years, Inter Milan have done really well getting to Champions League finals, playing this system. But I think any top club should have serious reservations about ever employing a manager who has played that system because 90 % of managers play a back four or play 4-3-3 or play 4-2-3-1. So what it means is the changeover in players. Because you're never going to... I was going to ask you, do the youth team play like that now or do the reserves play like that?

45:35I think the reserves do apparently, the youth team don't, is what I got told last season when I was asked it. Basically, they haven't implemented it to the academy, but they've put it into the B team, I think, so the players that could come in are getting used to it. There has to be a philosophy throughout the club. When we were at City, the men's team played the same as the women, as the academy. You could go and watch the under-sevens that were doing the same thing, but when you speak about philosophies, if we changed how we played, I remember our striker was out injured and it's obviously, if you're missing a Haaland or something like that.

46:04We then had to change. I remember we won the game and the manager had to go for a meeting on the Monday to justify why he played a different way. Roy's question is, is it the players or the system?

46:19The players are better than where they are in the league playing this system. I think if they played a different system, they would be better. Not amazing, still nowhere near good enough for Man United, but I think there's a squad of players there. that should be challenging for the European positions. With the system at the play now, if you look at the results over here, they're a bottom half team, maybe even lower. Jamie, his trouble will be, and will continue to be, if the players are doubting this system, and if you're not winning every week at United or most weeks, you will have them doubts.

46:46And if the manager's not going to change his ways, them doubts, just trouble ahead. He'll eat away at you. He'll snap out of it. If they were getting results on the back of you, you'd get confidence going, this is the way we want to play. But if you're not getting results, you'd have doubts in the players' minds. But Gary, Jamie, you've obviously both played full-back. Imagine if you then got told to go and play wing-back. We're saying people should be able to adjust, but what would be your biggest worry? It's hard to go in centre-half. I had some experiences with that, and to be fair, if you think about it, I was comfortable going from a right-back to a right centre-back in a three and did that many times well.

47:22But the two times I was moved into a right wing-back role was for England. I did it three times. One was in a friendly. but one was basically in the European Euro 96 quarter finals against Spain didn't play particularly well I got booked I was more of a defensive I was more of a back five to be honest with you I was end up I didn't play well at all and then the other time it's the only time I've ever kicked off a football match knowing that I was going to have a bad game and it wasn't going to go well Croatia away Steve picked basically the day before the game I remember I always remember speaking to my brother in the warm up and he went it's not right this is it I went it's definitely not right so I was a 30 year old played right back played right centre back was Phil playing just quickly was Phil playing no I don't think Phil was playing I was playing you just put a little doubt in your mind the team was you John Terry I don't know who the other centre back was I was the centre back both of us are playing we're in trouble so there's a back three and I don't know who was right I don't know who was left wing was it Ashley Cole Ashley Cole probably Ashley Cole was left wing back who people think oh Ashley Cole would be a good left wing back Ash would have hated left wing back by the way because he basically wasn't a winger anymore or he was still a full-back that basically could defend and go forward a bit.

48:29Can I ask you one question before you go? You know, for a full-back to a wing-back, the basic difference as well in possession, when you're a full-back, you're kind of looking on to play a little bit. When you're a wing-back, you're already on there. You're up there. I said that about Trent, going on to the play, he's brilliant, but when he's up there and he's shoving him in the field. Absolutely. The team was Ashley Cole, Carriger, Terry, Ferdinand and me. And I remember thinking, that's a really strong back five on paper, thinking no one should get through us. but you're playing Croatia away.

48:58But I just knew that this, we tried it in training the day before as a five. That's the only time you tried it? Yeah. And on the ball, I just knew it wasn't going to work. We were never going to get a goal. So you felt, well, obviously there was only one session, which is obviously, it's a tough gun. But you just, your mindset couldn't adapt to it. You're like, no, I found it difficult, because I thought, do you know something? I know I'm not going to give the team an attack when it needs down the side. I know my capabilities. It wasn't a case of being, lacking in positivity, because we desperately need to win that game.

49:23Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. I just thought, if you're expecting me to get up there and sort of like whip crosses in and sort of go past people and make underlaps, I mean, even Ash wasn't comfortable with it. Yeah. I was the one who came in to change. That's your back four, isn't it? Yeah. But I always remember, I'm sure Ericsson, so McLaren comes after Ericsson, doesn't he? And at the time, you know, Ericsson, he always played the same team in the same formation and I think he'd been criticised a lot for not being adaptable. and I'm convinced McLaren just wanted it's a tough game away okay this is where I can show I'll throw a different thing in you know that I think Steve had a little bit of he was flexing I haven't said that Croatia away is going to be difficult anyway Croatia is a hard place to go especially when your wing back scores an own goal what was this goal

50:13that's a great point yeah but what am I going to say to you what's that going to do with the system no but roll it to the side you would have been told that when you were five yes you have to go keep a Casey shanks I love the fact that Phil just gave a little in you here. It's not right, Gary. It's not right, Gary. Gary, Gary. I don't like it, Gary. I don't like it. I'll give you another reason why I think that probably came about. I think Terry Venables was Steve's assistant. Terry was flexible three to five, three to five. And he'd done it with me before, like going from sort of right centre-back or right-back.

50:45I was the one that used to move from three positions. In the year of 96, in three different games, I played three different positions. right back right centre back and right wing back but I was 30 and I just couldn't play right wing back going from a right back to a centre half and a tree you found not bad that's fine you've just been higher up the pitch you're getting the ball height right not defensively no problems defensively I'm talking about in possession I'm actually receiving the ball where a winger receives it you want to give it to the winger yeah and then when I get it there's nothing in front of me to hit what was the score of that game we lost we didn't score a goal I knew we wouldn't score a goal I think Crouchy and Wazza were up front this episode of Stick to Football It's brought to you by Arm Clothing.

51:23Have you ever changed your opinion about a player or a manager after meeting them personally? You? I've had loads. Him? I'll have to say, Roy, Roy is someone I've changed my opinion on. I love him. What was your opinion first? I didn't know how to take, when we played, I didn't know how to take because he always looked at you disdainly. I didn't know, Ian. That's a shash. No, let me explain. He looked at you in a way where, you know, because you're my opponent. He never gave you anything in his face, right? So that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Right? So he was like that. I never thought he was somebody that I'd ever want to be around or talk to because he just sounded such a dickhead.

52:05Like when you speak to the people, because at the time, you know what I mean, it was a different time for Roy when he was playing. I didn't, all I heard about him, I would never feel that me and him would be like we are now because, like, he was a nightmare, apparently. and then he was a great obviously he was a great player as well so I dislike the fact that he was so cool off the pitch because he could do all that stuff with the guys oh all the lads love me and then he was a great player and so you know what I mean he's that kind of person that you admired and was jealous of at the same time envied he's great he was great I never had a bad opinion at all because I did like him but someone that I now love actually after having on here Oli Gunnar Solskjaer he was so lovely and obviously I only seen him like on the TV and stuff but just such a nice guy but I didn't have a bad opinion first I would actually say you I can't believe that you're actually quite funny you do make me laugh I never thought that would happen was it Steve Gerrard who did an interview this week and he said he never knew he never thought you two would end up being here yeah but it was brilliant that was on another podcast we're not mentioning that Steve we need you on here I say Bruno Oh you mean as a player like Yeah no I met him for half an hour and I thought he was yeah Did you back down after you said he didn't run back No I met him for half an hour and I thought to be fair you know you speak to people about him in terms of at the club and they say he's a good good type and he's hard working you know really looks after the staff and that was the thing that impressed me most when the staff said he looked after the staff looks after the people so yeah I'd say Bruno I've always been open-minded with people like that.

53:46Oh, no, no. What are we doing? What are we doing here? Are we doing a serious thing or not, Gary? Exactly. No, forget about it. Jesus, let's not do it. Don't do it, mate. We're talking about it when we're having a tea. We're not giving it to you. He's been open-minded. I want to know who he's going to say that. Well, I can't finish it, not least. Yeah, nice. Carry on. Get some rays, right? Get some rays. Yeah. Oh, cool. It's now, it's now. No, but it's great. Joke's aside. No, it's great when you play against sports people and then you end up working with them. But I joke aside, the people I would have played against, they were the enemy.

54:20But I always thought, I'm sure they're pretty decent people when off the pitch and when you meet them outside. Obviously for us now when we're all retired, I've enjoyed that side of it and working in the media, meeting people that are your enemy. And then you become friends with them and you look, the bottom line is I look at people, particularly in sport, I go, they were doing the best for their team and you're doing the best for yours. And that's it. That's where the battle is. But when you're finished, 10 you're like that's cool I love that now we're finished you're with different people in different clubs it's like your battle's over isn't it we can't do any more for our clubs really or for whoever we're playing for this is why I find it really strange opposing fans the fans who were against us like me with Tottenham or Chelsea they can still be so bitter and twisted about it when you can't do anything to actually harm them you've done what you did and you think they would say to me can I have a picture and you'd say yeah sure and they'd say to watch Chelsea and they'd say Can I have a picture?

55:11Yeah I want to take the piss out of my mates I said why would I want to do that? I'm an Arsenal person so why would I want you to be able to take the piss out of my Arsenal mate? I said listen I can't hurt you now just be lovely be lovely and nice man I'm just going to about my business You know what right they still see you and a bit me I have it as well maybe all of us they still see you as that player they can't shake off what you were like on the pitch so they're going to have that little bit of needle with you particularly if you've been involved in a big club and you have to be on your guard you have to be on your guard They're ready to pounce on you with some stupid comments.

55:42Is there anyone who's been, like, kind of your hero growing up and then you met them and you were so glad that you did have them as a hero? I like Brian Robson. Do you know what I mean? Because you don't know how they are, do you? But you think heroes are a bit strong. I think you have to be careful saying people are heroes. I think Keegan as well. Keegan, when I was younger, was massive. Right, you made a respect for me. And then I met him and he was really cool. Who was that? Keegan was, like, when I met Keegan, he was the first person. When I met him, I was really like, whoa. Yeah. And Kenny Dalglish, when I first met them.

56:08and all Kenny done was to piss out of me for the whole time because that's what he does he's just bantering it but like Keegan was really it kind of stopped me in my tracks like Kevin Keegan What helps you what we all do I think obviously we played sport when you do the medium where people obviously behind the scenes I still think we all deep down like being part of a team then as well you're still working with a team and trying to be a decent person with people and that's a nice challenge for ex-sports people I think Next question what's something about football that was better in our day and something that's definitely better now i'd probably say that the privacy can't go anywhere now and i'd probably say what we had back then is you know you could go somewhere there weren't no phone everything around phones yeah i think that that's probably that's probably it you know i mean it's not good enough for players it's terrible for players now terrible for does your mind play tricks in you i won't we'll go back to when we played didn't there seem to be better characters around the game wasn't there it seemed that way yeah it seemed to be characters every team when we were playing they were saying oh Stamboles or Rodgers and they were saying yeah back in our day and best team but they get told they can't do interviews now and I don't think they can show the personality sometimes I think a lot of them do interviews all the time now to be fair to them they're expected to do it and I think they do do it but do you think that like we've like a bit robotic that's exactly A bit like Declan Rice being told what to say.

57:34Do you think back in our day that we probably said as little as possible at times? I know maybe there was the odd interview. You said how you felt. Someone like James Madison would say something. He would just speak his mind and speak this. And everyone says, oh, really? Some people say, I listen to him. He doesn't even play. He's injured or something. But he speaks his mind because he's got personality. And then people dig him out. I got in trouble for a lot of things I said. So your honourable player is not saying much. You were the exception. you weren't really the barometer of every player that was played, I don't think.

58:03You're quite unique. Oh, you're unique. I think the TV, and not just because we do the TV. Does that mean I'm amazed with it? You couldn't imagine going back, could you, and not having... I mean, I just love watching all the games on TV, so the thought of going back to sort of the 80s when you were a kid and it was just... Not watching telly. It was just match of the day. Yeah. And then I always remember when ITV got live football, it must have been like... That's on Sunday, the match. That was a big match. But it was like, it wasn't, you know, the thought of going... So I think the way the football is now TV-wise, and some supporters don't like that, and there's different kick-off times, I get that.

58:39But in terms of me watching, you know, you can just watch so much football on TV that you couldn't in the past. I'm going to say this. If you can afford it, James. Yeah, yeah. If you can afford it, because the thing you can't take away is that, when I was younger, I knew I was going to be able to watch the FA Cup on terrestrial TV. I'm not going to dig people out, but I'm saying that now, you have to have a BT, you have to have Amazon, you have to have Sky subscriptions to watch stuff. It's different for the youngsters now to watch something. I know I can watch the FA Cup final. That's going to happen now.

59:12They don't know. Do you think football players are technically better now and tactically better of an understanding of the game? Be careful with that, Gary. I know it's a can of worms. Do you think players, when you watch them now, en masse are technically better than we were when we played. I'm not saying it's a positive, but I 100 % think they are. Nope. No, I don't. We have to analyse games at weekend. Across the board. Right. The way we look at it, could we play in a modern game? I'm just talking across the board of all 20 teams in the Premier League, every player now, whether it's centre-back or goalkeeper or whether it's a winger or a midfield player, they all can handle the ball, I think, under pressure.

59:49Yeah, but then you... No, no, no, because if you're going to do that, then let's go back to centre-half. Alan Hansen, Gary Palastro. Let's go back to Palastro. I was going to say Palastro. Yeah, but that's the time, isn't it? They could play. So you don't think the game's technically better now? No, I think it's technically more... I think they're trying to play out more. Yeah, it is in that sense. But I think the other players back in the day would have adapted to that. Yeah, we'd have been able to do that. With more personality as well. I'm not saying they wouldn't. I'm just saying now... Oh, you've gone defensive.

1:00:17I'm not saying now. Do you think they're technically better? No, I don't think they're technically better, no. But then there's other parts of the game that's being lost. I used to love watching you guys and you'd see a proper tackle and all that. Like, now it's just yellow card. I think our mindset, I think when we played, I think our mindset seemed to be, the goal's up there, let's try and get it in the go. Whereas, no, it's again, I hate that. The recycling the ball and passing it around is surging. It's horrible. When I played at Liverpool, and obviously I'd say Stephen Gerrard was the best player I played with, but when I first got into playing for the reserves, if you like, and then I finished what it was 20 years later, there wasn't any player in that 20 years technically better than Jan Mulby and John Barnes.

1:01:01Right, right. Who I played with... I'm not about exception, I'm talking about across the board of the game. No, what I'm saying is 20 years later, and I agree with you, the game's become more technical, the pitches are better, we play more from the back, but I think great players of any era could have played in any era, that's my view, the absolute elite. But when I think I played with Alonso or Suarez or Stevie Gera, they still weren't as technically as good as two of those players who were playing in the mid-80s. Wow. So what's definitely better now and what's definitely better back in the day then?

1:01:30The pitches are better now. That's the only thing? That's all I'm giving them, yeah. Wages, wages. I think the wages just... We were all underpaid. We've seen your contracts, you weren't underpaid. I don't want us to be that people that look back and say, oh, you've been our day, the game was better. I don't know, of course. We had that from the players in the 70s all the time, saying the game was better 20 years before us. So I think we just need to see, what's better now and what's better then? Well, like I said, I'd probably say the pitches are better now. Oh, 100%. And then obviously the...

1:01:58Stadiums are better. Stadiums are better. But in respects of the football kits are better. I don't know, what can you say is better? I think the... See the atmosphere like in stadiums though. Do you remember the atmosphere? No, the atmosphere was better back then, I think. Yeah. Yeah, the atmosphere was better back then. Definitely. I think... Walking classes. I think the game was more entertaining. I think so. I think a bit more sort of action. But do you know, I think it was more entertaining. I think so, yeah. If you talk about more entertainment, if you remember the teams back in the day where we always got, teams might be struggling near the bottom, but they'd always come and have a go at you.

1:02:25I still don't remember teams parking the bus. They'd park the bus because they had to. They wouldn't be coming out going, but we're going to suck. I definitely felt, again, our plan was as a team, and I played for Forest, we were going, let's try and score. Let's try and score goals. I remember we played Norwich at the start of one season. And like, Norwich is just, Norwich, you know, they always play good football. They hammered us. I remember that. That was at Arsenal, wasn't it? Did they win 3-4-0? 4-2. 4-2, I think Mark Robbins scored. Yeah, that's right. Another one, it was like, Mickey Quinn came one season and done a hat score.

1:02:55Yeah, I remember that. Those teams, like Coventry or... Yeah, they came for you. I think one thing that was definitely better back in the day, and I think it's the FA Cup. Yeah. That's magic. Because it was the main one, wasn't it? I think the magic's coming back. It's come back the last few years now. and when you think of it when we were at United we should be bloody shamed of it we pulled out of the FA Cup I know that wasn't down to us but we obviously accepted as players I know that Ian tell me about it and they never got the votes I know it how mad was that your team pulls out of the FA Cup who won it that year?

1:03:252000 was it you? was it not Chelsea Villa? yeah it was Chelsea that doesn't count then they should give that trophy back I'll tell you one thing that was better back in the day pundits yeah Alan Hanson. I think Brian, no, Brian Clough was great. Brian Clough was great. But there's more characters, but the managers, more about commentators like Brian Moore. the voice of Brian Moore. John Watson. John Poirot. Will we ever see, will we ever see the likes of Brian Clough again? Would he be allowed to do what he'd done at a club? No, the way he ran a club. Absolutely not. It was Mourinho. It's all a bit like that.

1:03:59Jock and Clough and Mourinho. I remember Brian Clough when on the pitch was hitting fans. I think it was against Cupid. And the next day, a couple of days later the fans apologise. He came and came and said, Mr. Coff. And then he gave him a kiss. He kissed him, didn't he? In fact, no problem. On your way. I do think we've got, like, I think it was on your way. Pop and Pep and Jose. I still do think there are some characters in the game in managerial positions. Not a Brian Coff. Oh, no, I mean, look. No one's near, yeah. That's what I'm saying to you. You know, probably I like who you can see completely go.

1:04:25It's like Simeone. Yeah. He looks like somebody who, you know, he'll be there all of a sudden. You say the wrong thing and he'll just absolutely explode. You'd love to see him on the sideline. but they are a bit more restricted now in what they can say and what the players... Yeah. And also the rules of the game in terms of just generally have changed, which means players can't... I think players are quite physical, by the way. If they could go and do each other, they would. I think the fact that they know they're off. So I don't think it's the fact that the players don't want to give us that game.

1:04:48I don't think it's that. Do you think the speed? Is it quick enough? I think the game's quick. Do you think so? Are we quicker than that? Yeah, I think it's quick. I think it's really quick. I think they run further, they run faster. That's a proven fact. we know that but I think if they were able to be I think the game actually I think they are going to let more challenges go in the last few years I do think it's a bit more physical I don't think they're stopping everything but physicality was a big part of the game back in the day where that was like Gary you say it's quick I remember like you say no it's quick it's definitely quick Gary it can't be as quick as when we used to play our team I'm saying when we went up and played Liverpool in that 9-0 game I've never seen anything as quick as that yeah you look at this now did you have a little block did you have a little block that day no we were going You should have a fucking...

1:05:25We're trying to go through. No, but what I'm saying is, all I'm saying is, Gal, is that when you talk about the quickness, obviously we're watching now, we can see it and say, wow, this looks quick. When I was playing in that particular game, and games against Liverpool, it was quick. Yeah, they were quick, but there were also games probably like we see now as well. But I think the one thing we know through the stats, or I know this from when I was finishing at United from, say, six, seven, eight years before, players are running further and faster every single year. We know that. Right. It's just...

1:05:53To be fair, you're talking about the pitches, sports, all that sort of thing. A lot more athletic. And players are definitely more... These would run faster than fair. Yeah, we would. Players are definitely, I think, going back to our time where we go, are definitely more professional, aren't they? I can't imagine lads going on to piss after games. Not like they're smoker. They've got their PT, they've got their nutrition. I love all that side of it. And they should be doing a lot better than they do. But I think it is a bit robotic, Gal. And you're talking about the name of personality in football.

1:06:19You probably mentioned someone like Jack. He looks like the kind of guy that's a bit Wild West still. but like he's totally monitored all the time if he has a drink everybody goes we should name some of the best characters I should have for another day people like McCaffrey well done everyone well done well done

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