Salah’s Liverpool Legacy, City Shock Arsenal & Slot In Trouble | Stick to Football EP 122

0:00Gary Neville: Just before we get started, a quick thanks to our partners on clothing. We hope you enjoy the show. When people want the truth about a product, they don't just search, they go to Reddit. Whether they're debating the best espresso machine or the right B2B software, Redditors are there to make a decision. With Reddit ads, you can reach these high intent buyers right where their research is happening. Join the conversation and grow your business at business.reddit.com slash podcasts. Valid for new Reddit ad accounts only. Only valid once per business. Additional terms apply. See business.reddit.com for more information.

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1:49Gary Neville: do you know something i think ian will be absolutely buzzing with that rory sent us a masters flag for all of us to gary thanks for having me on stick to football all the best rory Mac or Roy.

2:06Gary Neville: Caras? I need to give one to Jill. Roy got one first up, didn't he? And Ian's going to be absolutely buzzing. Thanks for all your support. All the best. How did Ian support him? Emotionally. Eh? Emotionally. He got him... He believed in him. He believed in him. Ian makes people feel good, doesn't he? He's got that way about him. He's like that. You could learn a few things from that.

2:33Gary Neville: Come on, Ben. Chill, grippy. Here we go. Oh, how nice is that? Yo! Yoo-hoo! There you go. Oh, that is so nice. Rory, I love you, Rory. But that takes away from me getting one, but you getting it as well. Yeah, but you've got to first. It's not special then, is it? Look, you're so bothered. Just share the joy. You had happiness, now we do.

2:54Ian Wright: I can't believe it. I'm not sure that's a signature. He'll be the first to sell it. No, no, no, this is going to my golf club. Yes, it is. I guarantee it's not. It's guaranteed. Your chance. Yes, it is. You only want to genuinely say much money. Tony, Tony Healy's coming to Ashford Manor, this is. That must take forever to sign. He's put his middle name in there. That's beautiful. Do you not really understand what this is? This is so good.

3:17Gary Neville: That is, it's a nice gift. Just before the Masters starts in a couple of weeks, it's a nice gift. That is so nice. You were saying it in... I know, but... There's no edge to that. Is it seriously? It was a nice gift. It's a nice gift two weeks before the Masters, eh? What are you going to do with it? What have you done with yours? I'm going to get this framed. What have you done with yours? Let me see. No, no, don't come off this. What have you done with your flag from Rory? What does yours say? Do you want to say? No, it's in one of my cupboards, I think. Rory, I love you. I love you. Yeah, I get a frame.

3:47Great being with you on Stick to Football. You're definitely the best. Oh, no, all the best.

3:52Ian Wright: No, you lied, you. You're such a fibber. It's all the best. There's no way that's his real signature on your own. Of course he is. Has he got someone doing them all? Of course he has. No, he hasn't. Of course he has. There's no way he's done that. Of course he has. How can you bring him down like that? So what's he said on your message? That's a long time. Ian, thanks for all your support. What does that mean? Even just because you love supporting him.

4:11Gary Neville: Thanks for having me on Stick to Football, all the best. This one meant the most. He's really made an effort with that. This one meant the most because I actually support him. Great being with you. No way's he done that. This is the worst one. I got quite paying with you. What did you get right? Thanks for all your support. One of his mates has done that. Oh, is that over the fighting? Oh, that's over the Ryder Cup stuff.

4:32Ian Wright: You know something? We've had loads of gifts today. I don't care. Even if he's looked at it, I still... This means the world. So what are you going to do with it? I'm going to give it to my... I'm putting it in my golf. You've got a few hoses, haven't you? Which hoses? Howard, do you want a new picture? Let's hold our flags up for Rory. Fags, Rory. I appreciate it. That's the thing. And we know you didn't sign him. Oh, you haven't got yours. He's probably watching as well, you know. He watches them all, so don't be mean. Do you want a whole line? Sorry, I'm still holding up. Oh, sorry, H. Look, it's like my school report.

5:04Ian Wright: Should I go out of this picture? Nice one, H.

5:10Gary Neville: Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. He must have got to a really low point in his mind to think, I've got to get out of here. Get out of here, as in Liverpool have got to get out of here. Have a rest. Mo Salah, to be fair, sits there on the bench. it just feels awkward. This generation of Chelsea is supposed to expect to win something silver. They're not into this building for the future. Rhys James is injured. Kyle Walker and Trippier are pretty much retired. And Trent's still not in. You'll be going, what's going on? Arsenal are overreacting to everything. Are you overreacting now?

5:45The pundits ex-Arsen.

5:47Ian Wright: Are you saying after three years of trying to win something? Every team's trying to win something. Are you going to turn up for the podcast if they don't win the league? Oh, no. We're trying to have anything to hold on to that can make us feel that we're going to get over this line. The back. Get in the back.

6:10Weren't you meant to have city tops on today? Yeah? Yes. You were invited. That was the best. Do you know what?

6:19Ian Wright: No, it wasn't. It was. It's in the group. Charlotte, what is it? We all said. I've got my phone you get it we all said too many messages City to win used to said Arsenal yeah and money to charity

6:32Gary Neville: we said Arsenal we would I was certain Arsenal but why can you be certain Arsenal we're going to win that's the most ridiculous thing you've ever said the one he does are you certain we're going to win I love your one go on he goes I fancy Arsenal to win but never write off Pep Guardiola that's my point every time I'll fail no but I went all in on Sunday you say that on every game every big game no but I went all in on Sunday But why? I was certain Arsenal were going to win. I was certain Arsenal were going to win.

6:59Ian Wright: But why? Let me tell you, do you know why I said as well? I said 3-1 was going to win. Obviously, once it started, it changed. But it changed. But leading into it, with the couple of weeks before, even the Mac staff and Eze scoring, there was no reason for us to believe that they're going to go to a game like that and not play to a certain level. I actually said, listen, even if we lose, as long as we lose it doing the right things, that's going to keep us going in the league. You thought you'd win. When did you say this? When you were on Sky? On Sky, yeah. When you were walking for Sky, yeah?

7:28Ian Wright: No, no, no. I was on ITV on Sky. Right. So don't try and change it. I was on ITV for Sky. He's a hybrid. I didn't actually. He's a hybrid. I don't even know if I got paid. Do you know what it meant to me was?

7:40Gary Neville: He just turned up at Wembley and he just... I've thought for a number of years you have to go and wound your direct opponent if you're going to go and win a league. I've thought that for years, right? And I thought, do you know something? they've got City nine points in front in the league City have dropped points in the league City have just gone out of Europe against Real Madrid and to be fair it's been a difficult one for them I thought Arsenal you've got them on the ropes this is where you really do drive it was the cup final half I know but you're thinking this is the moment Arsenal where you've got to basically sort of make them think that it's now us I couldn't believe that they didn't step up in the second half I couldn't believe it I was shocked actually at what I saw in the second half you know what what happens in these cup final they can be a big disappointment for certain teams you just don't turn up you know what I mean Arsenal to be fair quite reliable Roy you wouldn't expect them not to turn up Arsenal have been reliable for two years now this team they've been turning up a few years that's why we fancy them before I thought they would have been stronger but just generally they don't let you down in games like they did on Sunday in the second half they don't normally disappoint that much I mean that was a real freeze last year against Newcastle over the two legs never turned up in the cup matches last year they sort of have that cup matches their league record

8:46Ian Wright: obviously in terms of consistent are brilliant That's last year. We're talking about Arsenal trying to finish off a Premier League season. What, this year? What, eight games left? What is it? Seven, eight games left? You're not... What disappointed me more than anything else? I wasn't expecting the performance to be that low. I agree. That's all it was.

9:03Gary Neville: I thought we'd at least have a go at it. This group have never won a trophy. They're six years without a cup as a club. They've only won sort of like... I just think you've got City probably where you want them. I mean, Erling Haaland's statement before the game in that huddle... What was it? He was saying... Let's show the world we're still here. We're still here. We're still here. That's not just the window. So they know that the pressure's on them in terms of thinking everyone thinks they've gone a little bit. That's almost an admittance in some ways. And then Arsenal's let them off the hook.

9:30Gary Neville: I think City wanted it more, though. Do you not think? Because even in the times when I think Arsenal had a period in the first half, but City was still aggressive in the first and second balls. And I just think they wanted it more. I don't know, Jill. I'm always wary when you said teams want it more. Listen, it was a big mistake by the goalkeeper. But if Arsenal go on and win the league, which we all agree it probably will do you get over these disappointments I just I fancy City not because I think City are better I just thought Arsenal's record this season I think they've only lost three games in 49 I just thought sometimes we've all been in teams and you're going along well and you just now and again you lose a game and that was the only thing I backed but the thing that worried me I don't think it'll affect the league because you've got such a big gap if City hadn't dropped points and that's easy to say Forest game a couple of weeks.

10:18I think it could have had an effect. I just think the gap's too big now. But my thing about Arsenal all season is, and it's probably every team in the Premier League really, and we'll get to that with Salah, there's not enough special players, I think, in the Premier League. But when I look at Arsenal as the best team in this league, only lost three or four games in 50, which is an amazing record, I still look at your attack and just go, it's OK. There's no Salah. There's no star player. And I just think in that cup final, sometimes when you're not playing well, you need someone

10:46Ian Wright: like what has they done for Palace last year do something something special and I just think you've got enough special players in the attack and that would worry me a little bit for the Champions League do you not think Saka's one of them players though I know he probably didn't have his best game no but I thought two years ago Saka and Oldergaard were looking like I was thinking oh god these are the real deal these are like this is going to be like Salah and De Bruyne type of they're nearly there and they just never sort of the team after team are probably going to win the league but But I think if Arsenal win the league this season, I don't think one of the attacking players will go, I've had an amazing season, I've been brilliant this season.

11:21Gary Neville: It just, I don't know, it just doesn't seem to have clicked. You said just before, because we both thought Arsenal were going to win. You said even if they lose in the right way, I think that way in which the second half went, where they didn't turn up, I think that will leave a little bit of a doubt there. Because you said the gap's big, and we're talking hypothetically here, but the gap's six points if City win the game, and City have got to play them at the Etihad. So City will be smelling a little bit of... And just in the second half on Saturday, I just thought... I thought first half was even.

11:49Gary Neville: Did anyone think the first half was even? 50-50? Yeah, especially that first chance that we had. Half time I thought, it's on track, this, for an Arsenal set piece. But the way they started the second half, basically playing in their own box and just playing negatively and sort of not... It was very slow. It was slow.

12:02Ian Wright: And even, Jane, with that 4-2-4, right? Obviously that's something that you said you've seen it before and people have done it before. But do you think he'd done that because of Kepa? because he was going a lot slower than normally. But I just felt we couldn't get out. We couldn't get out. We saw that in the Premier League a few years ago, a couple of years ago, where a lot of teams were doing that set-up. So when I saw it, it was a little bit like, OK, that was a couple of years ago. You saw teams doing that where they used to have that fall. Almost not pressing, but almost just sort of blocking the passes into midfield.

12:33And sometimes something can surprise you. I was just so shocked that when Arsenal came off in the second half, there wasn't something different to play through it. and I thought that first 15, 20 minutes was so bad for Arsenal. Yeah, it was bad, yeah. Listen, City's done great and I thought Roger and Bernardo Silva were amazing, fantastic, but I just thought it was so bad from Arsenal to allow City.

12:53Ian Wright: They didn't have to see much to be amazing. I couldn't imagine City overpowering them. They couldn't get out their own half. The thing is that what we were doing is that, and then the balls up into Jokeres, kind of like looped up, easily came back and they were straight at us again. It just, then Zubimendi, you have to look at it, probably look at his numbers. is one of the worst games he's had for us. We didn't have anybody who can win the ball. And they gave it away cheaply. It just felt like one of those, it's the kind of a performance from an Arsenal side that you're not expecting to see anymore and this is why.

13:21Ian Wright: I was more like, how did I feel after it? I just felt, why do I feel, I felt so sad. I felt like, my gosh. But when you're not at it and you're at Wembley, you can have an off day. You can have off days. We've all been there. We've all been there. We've had cup finds. We go, it was a poor game and you're hoping for a mistake from somebody else, Again, if I was an ass, you'd be disappointed. I wouldn't be panicking. I wouldn't be panicking. You'd be using that cup final and you went on to win the league. What was that? 2000 and...

13:46Gary Neville: 2-3 maybe. Yeah, 2000. That was my worst ever cup final. I had a terrible game. I think it was 2-0, didn't you? Oh. 2-0, yeah. It was terrible. It was at Cardiff. We were shocking that day. We didn't turn up... Look, you don't turn up in a cup final. It is unusual that a team that's reliable ordinarily doesn't turn up. But on Sunday, I just thought, if you're Arsenal's players... players, in 2002 when we lost that final, to be fair, we got a right kick up the backside after it, as you'd imagine, but there were a lot of players in that dressing room who'd been used to winning and who thought, right, OK, I've been there before, we've lost before in semi-finals and finals.

14:19Gary Neville: I just wonder what that Arsenal dressing room, which hasn't won, that none of them have really won a trophy apart from maybe one or two, how did they come out of that? Maybe it's a good thing the international breaks here, but how do they come out of that knowing that they've not rocked up in a big moment? Does that set a little bit of a doubt for the rest of the season? Does that give them a bit of...

14:36Ian Wright: Yeah, but the thing is, like I say, from Arsenal fans, you've got this massive build-up with everything that was going on with Max down when he scored at Everton, and then you've got the Leverkusen goal and the win. So you're kind of feeling a little bit like, yes, and then we've got the... This is what the game does, doesn't it? Yeah, but this is what I'm saying. So what happens is with our players, and remember, we're talking about trying to finish off something we've been trying to finish for the last three seasons, and we're right in the middle of it now. And, of course, there's going to be some doubts, but I think you have to still take the positives from it.

15:03Ian Wright: Rhea will come back hopefully Martin Erdegaard will come back what were the positives from Sunday? I can't look at too many positives from Sunday apart from the fact that we'll get players the goalkeeper will be back even the goal the first goal there's no way Rhea makes that kind of mistake so that doesn't happen maybe we can hang out until half time and then he might change it he might change something maybe if Kai scores that goal things might change a bit more confidence into the team but like that mistake then with the way the guys were playing it just felt like City just felt like they could just put a mad rush on it I'm surprised that you're so surprised about the result because what happens in football is you are going along nicely you have got the momentum your form is great young lads are doing well that's exactly what happens when you're going along nicely a team like Man City trip you up and we're talking about it's not as if they lost the cup final to a lesser team or a team like in the bottom I've not recognised that kind of that's what happens but you know what happened there in the next two or three games, in league games, where you go, oh my God, we're really off.

16:06And now it's a cup game. I suppose they're called cup games. Anything can happen. The league form was brilliant. I certainly wouldn't panic. But take your medicine as well. You've had a bad, all your bad days, your memory plays tricks you. You think every team turns off a cup final and turns, Wembley can be a big pitcher if you're not quite at it. You do get shown up. They've had a number of chances,

16:23Gary Neville: Arsenal, over the last few years to wound their direct opponent late on in the season. They've not taken that chance. I just thought on Sunday that was a real big opportunity for them to sort of sit and City, at a point where City were a little bit lower than they would be, there's a little bit of doubt there I thought that was a real moment to step up and to be fair, you can lose a game, I get what you're saying, but to not rock up and play in the second half and not even respond look, let's say you go 2-0 down and that happened and the keeper to be fair caused himself a problem when he came out for the one with Docu I think Yeah that's right, yeah But when you go 2-0 down you're even then at 2-0, I'm thinking right, okay, I'm expecting a goal here from Arsenal a response, I'm expecting it to be a little bit more frantic last 10 minutes.

17:01Gary Neville: We didn't get anything. Yeah, but if you spoke to Arteta that night and the following month about his staff, I think you sit around with football and be going, what happened there, lads? Do you know what? You have to write it off. You hope so. Of course you do. You have players to come back, of course, and go, the priority for him, obviously, is winning that league. Yeah, the only positive was it wasn't in the league. Yeah. You know, you lose the city. And they played Man City up against Pep. I know. Why all of a sudden we think, well, Pep's, Man City probably should have won it on Arsenal in the other season.

17:26So as bad a city can be off it, when they turn it on like they did, they're still one of the best teams in the world.

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19:43We need to speak about how good O 'Reilly was, though. I think he's like a secret weapon because he's playing at left-back, but then he's obviously taking up the central midfield positions. He can do it all, and the engine to be able to get into the box, but then still be... I think he was absolutely incredible. I think what's unbelievable about him is how much faith Pep Guardiola has in him. Well said, Jane. Man City, one of those teams where you don't... Probably when Pep first came in, we could name the City team. So now Pep's always changing formation or different players. He plays. He trusts him.

20:15He plays at left back. He just... And his first game, not his first game, but the first game made it really... He changed the game. If you remember last season, City were worried about making the top four. Made a few signings in, obviously, the January. There was a game at Bournemouth. I was watching it on Sky, and Bournemouth think were winning one the other half-time. It might have been an FA Cup game. It was something. And that lad made the difference when he came on at half-time. It was definitely a way of bone, but then from then... You can see the goal he gave away against Real Madrid a few weeks ago.

20:45I remember he just got caught up. And then you're thinking Pep afterwards might go, sometimes Pep would punch a player, a young player going, I'll take you up for a while, but he has that trust in him. Yeah, you're going to make mistakes across all players, particularly defensively. And I think what he has with him, that's what he's doing. That's brilliant. The trust of a manager in the big games, he's going, no, I'm going to stick with you.

21:02Ian Wright: And then you look at something like O 'Reilly, and the way he plays in games, and it's because he's so young and he's been given that. he's not bothered he just goes and plays and I think that's how you should have a young player like we've got young players at Arsenal I'm not sure they get the same kind of faith just I'm going to play him I don't care if he makes I'm going to play him how do you get the confidence

21:21Gary Neville: otherwise I honestly think on Sunday and I only thought this really after the game going home if I'd have made the two mistakes in Madrid which he made which the first one obviously doesn't read the flight of the ball and Valverde to be fair he's a brilliant player does him and then he does him on the second goal I think it is when he runs inside him from sort of the out to in run. And we've all been done with that run as a full-back and I'm thinking, do you know something? I'm struggling to recover from that mentally because I'm thinking I've cost us the European Cup. And I did it. Remember who we're playing against.

21:48Gary Neville: We're talking about playing against Real Madrid. And I'm thinking for O 'Reilly to come back within two weeks from that, in Real Madrid, it was a bit of a sobering night for him to be fair because it will have hurt him. To come back from that after being two weeks ago in Madrid with Valverde giving him a little bit of a lesson, which is a good lesson for him by the way. He'll know how to do it.

22:07Ian Wright: a young player, you know, who's playing, who makes the cut. If you're going to make mistakes, and it's going to be against Real Madrid, at least you're in the vicinity. So you say, right, I've learned from that. You know what I mean? If I can mention, I've mentioned like, I've mentioned Miles Lewis when he played against Real Madrid last time. Had an unbelievable game. And then he's kind of been dropped back out of it. And I'm thinking in that game, yesterday, on Sunday, a left back who can invert what we need is somebody comfortable on the ball, which we didn't have. That's the game he should be playing in.

22:37Ian Wright: Because then he's somebody who can get on the ball and at least we can link.

22:40Gary Neville: His third choice, what do you think of that Ian? Let's just stick on it for a minute because he's gone from being a massive talent, is a massive talent, to third choice left back now for Arsenal.

22:49Ian Wright: There's no way, Miles Lewis Skellion, the way he started his career, he hasn't got the capability to go on and do, I'm not saying he's going to do exactly what O 'Reilly's done, but the confidence it gives him in playing is going to be a lot probably more confident than he is right now. who can't get into the team at the moment, whether it's behind Incapier or if it's behind Calafiore. Whereas this guy is a footballer. And we needed a footballer on Sunday. And those are the things that I'm sitting there watching us do. Watching us do nothing. And I think to myself, if the Arsenal fans saw someone like Im come on and do a couple of things, everybody.

23:27Ian Wright: It gets us going. It gets people going again. That's a disappointment for me. Do you think there's almost that much pressure on Arsenal to win the league or win something with Arteta this season that he's almost once the league's won we all think they'll win the league everyone will just almost like so you could maybe think I'll drop a Lewis Skelly in there now and again every few games because he is a good player what he did last season was unbelievable that performance in Greenwich it was like he's going to go on and do special things you would imagine on the back of doing that at 18, 19 do you think it's almost this thing they can't take any risk what's where everyone on the team is big, solid, strong we've got to almost just power out into this title.

24:05Ian Wright: Because we're not playing with the kind of, you know when you see a team who's going towards the title and they finish it off, you're getting more and more confident with the game. They only need to win another couple and they're confident and they win the, I think as Arsenal fans, we've not had that at any stage during a season where you feel like, okay, yeah, well this feels like comfortable for a bit. Like, even the highs of the, like I mentioned the Matt Stelman and the Eze, you've got such a high you think, oh the team's really in that place where they're confident and then you get a performance like that, Roy, as much as you're saying it's like, it can happen.

24:40Ian Wright: It's just, it feels so feast and family at the moment. We're trying to have anything to hold on to that can make us feel that we're going to get over this line. Now, I do believe we'll do it because of the gap, but it's not making it any easier. That's what I'm trying to say. It's meant to be a little bit easier. Please, Roy, honestly, I can't even watch the game sit down. Your nine point's clear. Yeah, but like Gary mentioned, it's nine points. Jamie, did you mention it? Or did you mention it? Nine points clear. Have you said nine points clear? Game in hand. And you've got to play them. They might go and draw at City.

25:13I think it's psychological, isn't it? What a position to be in. If you'd offered Arsenal now at the start of the season, nine points clear with seven games to go. Look at the hell, man.

25:21Ian Wright: Yeah, but then you're talking about the guy who's going to score. You know, people are now mentioning our players who's on form. They've won the most games. They've scored the most goals right here. I can't sit here and act like I'm going to be so confident. I'm nervous because I want us to do it. And that's fine. It's good to be nervous. Nervous is good. It gives you a different type of energy. They've won the most games. They've scored the most goals. Conceited the least. Yes. And you're sitting there shitting yourself. My God. Thanks for that, Ryan. If Arsenal win the league, though, I think they'll get over this massive psychological barrier and they'll go on to...

25:53I think, have you ever had them teams where you just needed to beat them once? And then I remember the Euros where you played Germany in February and we'll beat them. and I think without that win, we wouldn't have beat them in the final. But it's just that belief that you've done it and then you can do it again. But did you ever have them too? You do.

26:10Gary Neville: We had it with Juventus, I think, in Europe many years ago where we had to get over that line of beating them. I think eventually, obviously the famous game where Royce scores the header. I mean, that changed the whole belief that we could win the Champions League because we'd been taken to school by them for three or four previous years. That's my point around Arsenal with City. I just felt Sunday was the point where you go and basically lift the trophy your nine points clear they're on the ropes a little bit from Real Madrid and in the league and you think right drill them into the ground finish them off put them down and it's a missed opportunity but you've still got a chance in a couple of weeks to put it in and it wouldn't I wouldn't put it past them to go

26:47Ian Wright: Would you take a draw now would you would you take a draw at City 100 % You take a draw You'll play for a draw You're saying about putting a marker down

26:53Gary Neville: If you think about the times where Arsenal If you were Arsenal, I'd have to sit in a few weeks. If you think when Arsenal won the league, Overmars at Old Trafford, Viltord at Old Trafford, you think of the big moments where you just go and win. I just asked you, then, you said, would you take a draw? And you're like, oh, yeah, yeah. You have to take a draw. But my point is, I do feel there is an element of Arsenal to step up and truly believe it. They have to go and do something a little bit different and exceptional. They might get over the line without that. I don't think we have to do anything exceptional.

27:18Gary Neville: Exactly. Look, maybe they don't have to beat City. Maybe it's something that just ultimately I look at historically and think that gives you the belief to think, right, we've gone and done it. a big game win at the death and that's what I think just quickly one more point you were quite harsh at the end on the selection of Kepa you said that you know Kepa basically was owed nothing by Arsenal Football Club by Mickalaterton you don't think he should have played no I don't I'm not a big fan of swapping the goalkeepers I understand you've got to give them games because you know the harmony in the squad and also if your goalkeeper got injured in the Premier he's got to be sharp he's got to be ready he's got to play a few games.

27:57So I get the early FA Cup games, early Carabao Cup games. I don't like the final stuff. This idea that you owe this one person in your squad this thing of playing a cup final when you've got millions of supporters around the world who are like, paying the money week and week out to go and watch you win. Now, if you're playing for a team who win quite a lot, listen, if City would have lost at the weekend, it wouldn't have been that big a deal for City to lose. It feels like a big deal for Arsenal to lose for me because of the reasons you've said. and he's still going to get that question that's can you get over the line and I just think the way Arteta is as a manager he's quite ruthless he means business on the side of the pitch that's just like no and the reason I'm quite hard on back up goalkeepers I don't have much time for them they get paid to not play so you know I love them they're the only ones who do the practice shooting at the end you know you need a back up goalkeeper you need a good goalkeeper you've got to give them a right few quid to make sure they get paid probably more than what they should because you're not going to play and to say he's got to play in the Carabao Cup final, nothing happens.

28:58Ian Wright: Yeah, but I think that's not the case with James Trafford, though, surely, because we're talking about a£35 million goalkeeper

29:03Gary Neville: and our goalkeeper costs£5 million. I thought Cara's point on Sunday was a good one in the sense that, look, I suspect what Mikel's done is he's probably promised Kepa at the start of the season, you will play in this competition, and he's probably, to be fair, had to follow through with it. But I think Cara made a good point on Sunday about James Trafford. He was brought in as the number one in the city. Number one, yeah. And then obviously Pep changed his mind and brings Donnarumma in, so he's almost in some ways got a little bit of a development path for him but also he's promised him he's number one probably.

29:27Gary Neville: And he's a better goalkeeper, do you think? Yeah. I think he's a better goalkeeper. Without a doubt. He is, he's a better goalkeeper. Well, Kev's. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

29:34Ian Wright: He's a much better goalkeeper. You know what, at the end of the day, it's unfortunate for Kev because we know he's got history in this tournament but for him to have a mistake like that in a game where, or a time I should say for Arsenal when ideally we needed to win that game, you know what I mean? You know what I mean? He's not all my time. No, we needed to win the game. No, let me try. I'm trying to explain it in a way without being too deep and emotional. The thing is, is that for us to win that game, Roy, if Raya was in goal, even if Raya was in goal, it's still questionable with the way we perform.

30:05Ian Wright: But I think it was more important for Arsenal to try and win that game than it was for... Do you know what Arsenal are getting like? Arsenal are overreacting to everything. Arsenal, the fans. Am I overreacting now? The pundits, ex-Arsen. Are you saying after three years of trying to win something... Every team's trying to win something. We get into the last... Every team's trying to win something. It's making our ass land their own. Yeah, but we're in pole position for the last three years to try and do it, and we've not done it at this stage of the season. So I'm supposed to be bouncing around?

30:32Ian Wright: No, not bouncing around. I'm supposed to be like I'm on some hoverboard? You're actually crying. I'm not crying. You said we needed to win that. All the other teams want to win trophies. Of course we needed to win that. We need to win that trophy for that dressing room. But if you win the league, will you be all right with this cup final? Would you write that cup final laugh if you win the league? I'd write it off, but at the moment, I'd want that as something to alleviate my stress, man. There you go. The back.

30:57Gary Neville: Ian's stressful. Ian's dancing. He didn't have them two weeks ago. Are you going to turn up for the podcast if they don't win the league?

31:07Ian Wright: We're going to win the league. I feel like you'll be so sad. I will be sad if we don't win the league. But I'll still turn up. Of course he will.

31:18Ian Wright: That's a meanie pass. He's savvy. Yes, he is savvy. The thing is, can I just quickly, we've got to mention Ake and Kusinov. I thought they played pretty well. They didn't get no real pressure on them. You're thinking, if I'm a forward, I'm thinking, right, it's not even their main two. Nothing.

31:38Gary Neville: Pep's done it with a few players. I didn't think that Rodri in his first season was brilliant. I didn't think that Mahrez in his first season was brilliant. And Kusinov, I thought, he's never going to. You're now starting to think about Kusinov. a little bit differently. And you're Kusinoff a year ago. What about his tackle after about 25 minutes of memory? Oh, yeah. It's a bit crazy. You know what? With a marker down, wasn't it?

31:56Ian Wright: This is what I'm saying. With a player like Kusinoff, if I'm playing against him, I'm going to make sure that I want to bring him in to go because he wants to win everything. He's quick. He's very quick. He needs to slow down some day. Even more reason, you've got to be saying to the midfielders or someone, listen, if you see me running with him, I'm going that way. Whatever I'm doing, get it over there. You've got to move him because he's so quick Conley's recovery as well. You've got to get there to get after.

32:21Gary Neville: You're talking about what you were doing. You had sharpness about you. Yoceres doesn't have that, to be fair. Neither does have hurts. They couldn't do that, to be fair. I thought the first five minutes or so, they got a little bit of something going in that. And then all of a sudden, they just managed them after that.

32:32Ian Wright: Yeah, but then let's say, if you put a prayer... No, but you're right. No, just something right.

32:37Gary Neville: I think when centre-forward, in the first five, ten minutes, get a little bit of a sort of... You hold a couple up, you get a little bit of something. I think, actually, you centre-forward, but they recovered brilliantly, to be first-nil. Yeah, but the thing is,

32:46Ian Wright: you're talking about like Jokeres might not have the pace and that to be, but you still, if you put Teddy Sheridan up against someone like that, Teddy would still have an impact on the game. He can't do that. No, but Teddy can't do that, but then what Teddy, he will at least hold it because if we're saying that Jokeres can't go that way and go this, he could still be able to hold it. You still need to buy a centre-forward.

33:08Gary Neville: Ian, what Teddy would have done with Kusinov would just pull away from him on the sort of half, on the little sort of diagonal and Kusinov would have And it would have left something in there. He would have pulled him out of position a little bit.

33:20Ian Wright: Yeah, but what I'm saying with Teddy would have a plan for our campaign. Because he's so quick. But that's what you need. As a strike, you say, I need to do something to affect him. So even if I can't do it, someone else can. And that's what we need. That's the calibre we need. But out of all the groans in the world we've played here, when you're not at it and you're quite off at Wembley's a happy. And it sucks your legs. It's spongy. I remember City are still good at keeping it. And you're like, I tell you. It's tough when you're not at it. You've never lost at Wembley? No. I don't think so. Nice one.

33:46Brilliant. How many times have you played here? Four FA Cup finals. Yeah. Thank you.

33:52Gary Neville: Well done, Jill. You know who you could have done with? Robbie from Sunderland. That's who you could have done with. He was magnificent. And I had a double on Sunderland and City. City did. Had a good Sunday, Jill. Yeah, had a good Sunday. But we had a bet. I don't like it. From one club in crisis to another club in crisis, Liverpool. You didn't even give Sunderland a shout-out. Come on. Last few minutes winner. We were going to start with Sunderland and Newcastle. Yeah. But we didn't. We're going to run out of time. But we just didn't. We just... It was a great win. It was a great win. It was a great win.

34:26Gary Neville: It was a great win. Thank you. It was a great win. Don't go overboard. They'll all think you're getting giddy. You set off a whole host of text on Sunday on our group where you said Sunderland and City and I came back and said draw an Arsenal. Yeah. You said City and Newcastle. Yeah. You said City. I just said City. You said Arsenal. You said Newcastle. I didn't say Newcastle. You did. You're saying anything to me. I didn't say Newcastle. And then you replied that there'd be a forfeit. We have to wear a City kit or an Arsenal kit depending on who loses. It's not quite materialised. Someone has to give something to charity.

35:03Gary Neville: Yeah, give something to charity.

35:07Ian Wright: I didn't ruin it out.

35:10Gary Neville: I'm just trying to lord it a little bit. St. Patrick over there sort of intervened. Remember, we were the best of the stands, surely. Stick to Football is brought to you by Arne Clothing. Let's move on to the big story that started last night, which, to be fair, did it shock you? Mo Salah, it's a big... Yeah, I was out having a meal from my dad's birthday, and I got a text message, yeah, just when it came through on his socials. I think it's the right decision for everyone really I think it's good you know the way he did it international break no games around gives you know everyone to prepare to move on fans I mean I'm sure the club and him and his advice were probably speaking with me since probably January and I think it's probably yeah it's right for everyone I think right now but I think I think for the when you think of the Champions League this year I think there's a lack of quality in the Premier League and I think we lost the Bruin last season superstar, we're losing a superstar now so I think it's obviously they're not the same players now but I think there's a real lack of Salahs in the Premier League right now so it will be a bad miss and naturally when you announce you're retiring or moving on, you don't think of now, you look back don't you?

36:28You just think wow, you look at all the numbers now and what he's achieved as a player, and funny enough I went into Liverpool's officers to do LFC TV to do something on the Kop and they're doing something at the moment the top 10 greatest Liverpool players so all the fans are voting and they're getting ex-players to come in and it was only the day before so whatever day that was and I put Salah 6th on all time greatest ever Liverpool players that's bizarre

37:06Gary Neville: Why? As in, should be higher, should be lower. What do you mean bizarre? Well, he said that he's the second greatest Premier League player of all time, but the sixth greatest Liverpool player seems like a strange correlation. No, I said foreign player. Did I? No, I said... I thought you said Salah... No, I said Thierry Henry. I said in terms of foreign players... Salah's second to Thierry Henry, but he's the sixth Liverpool player. OK, well, that's debated. Would you have him? No, no, I'm asking you... I mean, you don't always go back than I do. Daglish, Gerrard, Souness, Rush, Barnes, Salah. Wow.

37:43It is a hard tent to get into, though, isn't it?

37:46Gary Neville: Yeah. So we've got in the top six. I mean, look, does this point towards... I mean, look, I think everyone's going to celebrate this incredible career and, to be fair, his consistency has been incredible, but does it say something about sort of what's happened at Liverpool in the last 12 months that they've... Obviously, last season, they've obviously desperately tried to keep him in the end, but you have felt that they didn't want to keep him a little bit because it was going on for ages. Is it okay? I mean, obviously they've ripped up his contract in the sense that he had a two-year deal on huge money.

38:14Gary Neville: They've both mutually agreed to rip that£20 million a year contract up. Do you find that a little bit sort of strange? No, I think it's good. I think it's good from both parties. I mean, people might say, oh, why did they let him go? We could have got a fee for him. But then you'd have to pay him up. And he's probably said, hasn't he, if you don't let me go for free, I'll stay. Is it an acceptance that they got the decision wrong last year, do you think? In hindsight, could they have done this last summer from Liverpool's point of view? But how could you not give the best player in the Premier League a new contract last season?

38:47It's just, you know, it's very difficult to say with hindsight. And this was always going to happen in this two-year period, wasn't it? Mo Salah was not going to be the Mo Salah we know in this two-year period. It probably happened a year earlier than we thought. but maybe we thought this would be the Mo Salah next season in his last year of his contract, because there has been a big drop-off. But is that to do with the team playing? Not as well. He's probably had a little bit of a drop-off, and then the team aren't playing as well. There's new players, so it's probably affected him as well. But I think Mo Salah, the way he's driven, like a Ronaldo, I don't see the Saudi thing just yet for me.

39:24I think I could see him in Italy with one of the Giants. They were maybe a slower-paced game, and he's still playing for like a, I don't know, maybe he's into Milan. I don't see that. What about MLS, maybe? I just think your career's over when you go there and I just think he'll be still looking at his Champions League record or how many goals he can get. I still think he thinks I'm one of the best players and me leaving now or moving on from Liverpool is not the end of my top-level career.

39:51Gary Neville: I've still got something to give. He's obviously confident in himself, but he has got something sorted, you would imagine, already, wouldn't you? because obviously he wouldn't rip up that contract unless you had something sorted. He strikes me as the type of guy that would, to be fair, step out of a contract because I think he's probably got that way about it. But he'd also be confident of where he's going, I would imagine. I didn't see Italy. He's done Italy, hasn't he? No, I don't know. But I'm just thinking, I just don't see the Saudi MLS. I think he'll probably think, I've got another three or four.

40:18He's probably looking at Ronaldo now, 40? He's playing in Saudi now when he's 40. What's Mo Salah, 33, 34? I think Mo Salah, I think he could do another two or three seasons. in maybe, not so much a lesser league quality-wise, but maybe a lesser league physically.

40:32Gary Neville: Maybe, I don't know. And last one, on the timing, I mean, obviously I think he's obviously decided that he wants it to be a sort of, almost like a parade, I suppose, because there's seven games left, there's probably only three or four games left at Anfield. He wants it to be celebrated. Do you think it's fair that he's got a right to do that? Yeah, I think a player of that level, and that was something I said in January when all the talk about him, he went to the AFCON, will he come back? Will he play for Liverpool again? And I think I said at the time, it'd be sad if Mo Salah leaves now. There's still a second half of the season where you get that big send-off.

41:08And listen, it's not about the big send-off, by the way, but it's nice. It's a nice thing. But the best send-off for him is in Budapest. And that's what I'm sure he's thinking. He just want his last game to be at Anfield. He wants his last game to be in the Champions League. Now, that will be tough with the draw. Of course it will be. But that's what the idea should be. I'm not sure it's the idea of the timing. to announce it. I don't know why he doesn't wait until the end of the season. Because last year, there was a kind of noise coming out of last year. This could be my last game at Old Trafford.

41:34He played all them games last year before he signed his new deal. And over the next year, just Liverpool finished the season really badly. And they've not been great. And he's in games. We saw it with Trent a little bit last year. Different circumstances. Trent, is he leaving? And then he's a bad game against United. So you just say they come off at the last one to two and they don't do anything in the cup matches and he's not at his best. They'll be saying he's already left the club. His heart's not. I think that can turn a bit nasty. So this idea of a parade, it'd be different if they were like, Arsenal are going to be top of the league, are you going to win the league like last year?

42:03But I'm not sure about the timing. I don't know why just the way at the end of the season go, yeah, I've done my bit. I've got no problem with the timing, to be fair. If he has a bad game the next two or three weeks, we saw Liverpool fans booing Trent when he was playing against United, and he's not quite at it. Different circumstances, I know. But if Salah's jumping out of tackles, we go, oh, he's already left the building, he's up and by. Especially when they're trying to battle for fourth or fifth, where you're thinking, I don't know.

42:28Ian Wright: He's having a parade when Liverpool need him to be at his best. Well, I think so. I just don't know why not wait until the end of the season. That's all been agreed. I'm off going, brilliant, thanks a lot.

42:37Gary Neville: Is it just because of... So for the next three or four league games at home, what he's going to get... Look, I think it's a little bit sort of... Liverpool have a lot on their plate. I don't think they need... Don't turn into another circus act. Last year got a bit silly towards the end of the season. And it can turn the other way. Fans can turn on him a little bit if he's not... And he's not been at it. And just say Liverpool fall off, they don't even get in the top four or five. They've got teams behind them like Everton and it finishes really badly. And Trent's in the, not Trent, Salah's in the game and he missed one or two chances.

43:06You know what fans are like? They'll be like, he's already switched off, he's left the building. Casemiro's done that though, hasn't he?

43:12Gary Neville: Yeah, Casemiro's contract was ruined now, slightly different. And I don't agree with that either. I don't think players have maybe announced that I'm leaving in a couple of months. Or he said a bit earlier. I mean, his contract was ruined now, but most Salah's obviously got another year left. I think they've obviously been discussing this for probably a good few weeks or a month now. So there's obviously a... So what's the benefit of announcing it? What's the big pluses? So he can say goodbye? The plus is, I suppose, that if you get to the end of the season and you announce it after the last game of the season that Mo Salah doesn't get the send-off that he maybe wants or the clarity.

43:40Gary Neville: Sometimes people do want to control their decision-making. I think players like that, if you think of the Ronaldo-Salah type, they like to control their... We had it last year with Liverpool with Trent. People were saying, Trent's not saying much. And then he said, actually, I'm going to Real Madrid. And they're kidding him anyway. They had to go with him. It was different though with Trent. It was the same principles. He's still making an announcement where he's going and fans go, well, you should tell us what's happening. And you do tell them. As soon as they have a bad game. Trent was poor against United.

44:06Fans go, he's jumping out of tackles. He's not doing this. He was never a great one for tackling anyway.

44:10Gary Neville: I suspect Liverpool and Arna Slaughter are in a position whereby Mo Salah said, look, I'd like to announce it. They're in the... What's the benefit, Gary? They're in the very difficult position of if we say no, you're not announcing it to the end of the season, and then they're going to piss him off and he's going to be basically walking around unhappy. How does it, I mean, for Liverpool, is it the right time now? And for Arna Slott, what does it do for him? Because he's the guy that at the moment is under pressure. Look, I understand why he's under pressure, obviously, because there's been a massive drop-off, but he won the league seven months ago and I would have thought that Liverpool, the way in which you've always talked about Liverpool treating their managers as a god, that they would be more thinking that the players have let him down than he's sort of, if you like, the instigated.

44:48Gary Neville: For the first time, it feels like Liverpool are turning on the manager over the players, which is something that, it is surprising to watch it from the outside. What does it do for Arnaz Slott? Does it put more pressure on him now for the rest of the season? If he obviously has got Mo Salah leaving, he's willing to rip up his contract, he's obviously not playing that well. He hasn't ripped up his contract, has he? But results come into it, Gary. They finish the season. This will be Mo Salah's decision. Yeah, no, I get it. The point is, though, whichever way you look at it, I can rephrase it. He has broken his contract, Jamie.

45:16Gary Neville: He has ripped it up. He has decided to... He wants Slott? No. No, Salah. Yes. Salah. I won't talk about Slott. he's decided to cut his contract short. He's gone to the club and said... Salah doesn't like being subbed. That's where all the trouble starts in January. That's where, obviously, things I said, different people said. What does it do for Slough now? Would it be easier for the manager to leave him out now, knowing he's leaving? If he's not playing every game now, as we all know with players, the following season's going to be a little... He's not going to be a... He doesn't want to be a sub, which, OK, I get.

45:41He just doesn't want to be a sub. So at Liverpool next season, if you're asking Liverpool supporters, they're going to say, what do you need next season? We need pace in the wide areas. We haven't quite got that want to play less Lexington so he's like no I'm not having this I need to play so that's why they've come to Liverpool have some huge games coming up huge cup games and obviously they're trying to get top four or five in league if Liverpool are off in the next few games and Salah's playing and he's maybe not running back and he's not taking chances or getting chances Liverpool fans 100 % they'll be saying I'm going to get him off he's crap he's already left the building he's already got a club lined up he's already left the building they said the same with Trent I think they will it feels to me

46:21Gary Neville: Liverpool fans have gone into almost like ceremonial mode we'll see over the next few months if Liverpool are off it and they're not winning football matches and Salah's not getting chances or creating anything and he's having a tough season a bit like Trent and that's the same principle instead he'll be thinking a player's left the building in his head I think the bigger problem for Liverpool for me is that they've signed a player for two years who's been one of their best players of all time and seven months into his first year of his contract he's gone to them and said look I think I need to leave and I think we need to break this contract that's probably a bigger reflection on how this is going.

46:49I have no problem with that kind of business side of it. Going to the club and going, listen, I think the deal itself from leaving this summer is not too bad. If she can't move on, there's a bit of respect from both parties. Yeah, exactly. But my issue is with the important games coming up, you're saying there's a league match, it's just a huge cup game.

47:03Gary Neville: Mo Salah, someone who's been, to be fair, the most robust, resilient, mentally strong player that we've seen, he literally plays every single week, he's decided to say, it's not for me anymore. What's got him to that point where he doesn't think he can turn it round. Is it the fact that maybe Liverpool are not going to change slot at the end of the season? He doesn't get on with the manager? Is it the fact that he just feels like maybe his legs aren't there anymore? What is it that's made to do it? It might be lots of that. His own form is not great. Even the dynamics of the team with Trent behind.

47:29All them things have changed. No, it's not quite the Liverpool I was happy with a few years ago. And I'm still young enough to go and do something somewhere else. He's not like 30 years. He's going, I'll see you up my last year. I'll cash in. It's not the most out of the team anymore. That's fine. So Liverpool have spent big on players who next season they need to go to another level in terms of Vertec or TK. We haven't seen Isaac. And it's not the Mo Salah team. The team's not built for him. They have to move in a different direction.

47:54Ian Wright: So why didn't they do that last year, James? If he'd only signed a one-year deal, right? If he'd only signed a one-year deal, we'd be sitting here, he's leaving the summer, he's moving on. But that's what Liverpool wanted to offer him initially. Of course, and he got his way in. But also, again, from a business point, if you go, listen up, we part ways in check, and of course I think I'm OK with that side of it. But announcing it with such big games coming up with Liverpool. Liverpool are fighting for their lives. They're on the verge of having a really bad season. I don't think he'd be down to that.

48:16It's down to Salah. It's down to Salah.

48:18Ian Wright: But if I was a club, you'd go, Salah, you want to make a statement? You don't. Let Liverpool keep out of it. It will be interesting to see how he plays and what he does because you mentioned Trent there. If he finishes on a high and he scores against City and he scores the win, do you know what, Salah? His decision-making has got a new bit of energy in his life and he is moving on to something new. But if Liverpool finish the season badly, I mean badly, just a city beat him and I am badly it'd be interesting if Slot just picks him all the time especially the way he's been playing will he pick him ever again but what I think is interesting is since they had that spot and he wasn't playing him and then he goes to the afternoon and he comes back he's played yeah he's played literally every game and I've looked at that sometimes because even Liverpool fans who love Salah I'm one of them sometimes I've looked at games thinking he shouldn't be playing there but I don't know if almost the manager has gone the other way thinking I don't need that hassle Now my worry for all that Jamie, sorry, maybe Slott's been under pressure of people above.

49:11You have to play Salah. I think that's the issue. I'm not sure on that. I don't know if it's come from above, but I think there's definitely...

49:17Gary Neville: What makes you say, no, no, no? To be fair, look, I don't know Liverpool Football Club at all. I have no knowledge of their backroom team. But do you not think it's possible that people upstairs could be saying to Slott, Salah needs to play? I honestly believe if Liverpool's hierarchy are telling their manager and their coach who to pick that would be a cross line that I don't think they would cross. I don't think they cross that line. Well, I... I'll go with Gary with that. I think it's a possibility. But what I'm saying is I agree with you but my point being is Slott was almost strong enough not to pick the guy on you know, the highest paid player and since he's...

49:53And then all the stuff that come out and then ever since he's just been in the team every single game and most of the pool supporters will look at that and think His form doesn't warrant to be in the team every single game.

50:05Gary Neville: We've seen this a hundred times, though, with England and with United, where a player is, it sounds crazy, they are just too much hassle and too big a player to drop. That's what I get, it feels like that to me. So the hassle that comes from dropping a... Name it, go on, name it. David Beckham back in the day at United, or with England, Wayne Rooney, or with a... And that's where the pressure comes from above. Leaving them out is too much hassle. I don't think the pressure's on the manager going, you have to... No, I don't think it's the pressure from above. I think it's from the external pressure and the actual fact that it becomes just such a sort of...

50:33Gary Neville: Big story. big story it takes over and consumes everybody and overwhelms the whole club and Mo Salah to be fair sits there on the bench it just feels awkward it's Mo Salah it's like putting Cristiano on the bench which Ralph Rangler did he'll have himself on Cristiano do you remember when Cristiano was on the bench all of a sudden it just became the whole thing about Cristiano so it's easy to play him you know what I mean why are you saying that you're shocked or they've ripped each other's contract it's a great deal for everybody it works for everyone no I get that I'm not saying it isn't sweet for everyone that Liverpool can spend the money elsewhere on different players next season that Mo Salah can change his career I just feel that Mo Salah I would have thought with him wanting the two year deal I would have expected him to say no I'm going to hang in there probably and I'm going to he must think it's gone really badly is what I'm saying I'm not saying he shouldn't have done it I'm saying he must have got to a really low point in his mind to think I've got to get out of here this is a place he loves get out of here as in Liverpool I've got to get out of here it's not the same for me this team isn't my team stop talking about Liverpool's big problem So is De Rodham sitting wrong?

51:34Gary Neville: No, no. I'm not saying that he's wrong. My point is, for him to go from being so desperate to stay at Liverpool, wanting a two-year deal, loving the city and the club like he does and the fans, to get to a point whereby he thinks, I've got to get out of here and leave this club now, that is a massive shift. But was he getting on with the manager here? Is he the same player? Is the team built around him? Is he going to play less next season? And of course, it's obvious to see. It's not that difficult. And Mo Salah, it's not just about the money for him. It's like, I want to play every single week, every single minute.

52:08You can see the way the team's shaping. Liverpool need different players in the wide areas next season. That's what Liverpool need to buy.

52:14Ian Wright: Why did he sign? Why did he sign? Because it's not like he has to look way into the future to see what's happening. So why did he sign then? Because you can look and see. But was he not happy then? He might have had something to do with it. Was he not happy then? Do you know what I mean? Is his relationship with the manager not well? Obviously, his relationship with the manager has obviously changed. Six, seven months of football is a long time. Six, seven. It's a long time. It's a long time. It's a long time.

52:34Gary Neville: But the two-year deal, Jill, I think for me was to be fair, it was him, to be fair, I think, asking for the club to believe in him. I think it was more of a belief thing. Why are you only giving me one year? You don't believe in me? You don't think I can go. I think that's more of an ego thing for players that are that good, which he is, that they want to see everybody believe in them and think that they're the star, which obviously he was last season. It's just, it's a big, big shifting. It's demonstrative of what Liverpool have done in the last seven months. They've gone from champions with a world-class player very much at the heart of it to seven months later looking really sort of at averaging games and that player's, to be fair, But that's exactly how things change quickly in football.

53:07Seven months later, he's wanting to play. But what does it do

53:09Gary Neville: for slot? I mean, that's the question. Does it do anything for slot? I think it's good for slot. He's good? I think it's good. Sal has been there and he's been a great player. or something. Again, you shake hands, you move on and he can... It must be easier for Slott as well

53:20Ian Wright: because... Not by building, but... ...and player that he's worried about if I leave him out, if he's on the bench, what's he going to be like? You're mentioning about the amount of fuss that he's on the bench. Oh, my God, Salazar's on... Is he going to come on? I think Slott will be happy. Yeah. Definitely be happy once he's out. Jamie, who do you think comes in? I read an article last night that someone was saying about Jared Bowen. Could you see him being a Liverpool player? No. No, he was maybe on Liverpool's radar under Jurgen Klopp early on. But obviously Mo Salah was already there. But no, he'd be too old for Liverpool.

53:53I think the big thing for Liverpool in terms of saying we need to replace Mo Salah, when you actually look at the make-up of Liverpool's signings, and I think it was a mistake last season, and I said on this show, it didn't feel like a Liverpool summer. It felt like a Real Madrid summer. Liverpool have been, and Mo Salah is the poster boy for this, being clever in the market, almost seeing something that other people do, and Mo Salah is probably the biggest person in that. Just going and dropping£125 million on Isak or Vey, it didn't feel like Liverpool to me. But I always think, how can you get the players on the pitch?

54:27I'm not sure you can play with two out-and-out wingers like Salah and Marnie, if you've got two strikers, like an Isak and Ekertike. So if Isak's going to come back next season, he's going to have a proper pre-season, he's got to show something. But Ekertike's been one of Liverpool's best players. How do you get them both in the team? and it would just be interesting whoever the manager is because I don't think it's set in stone and I start to be the manager what is Liverpool's set up going to be next summer do they need to replace Salah as such are they going to play actually with two strikers and a really narrow midfield which is what they've started to do but if teams change that much at Liverpool we're talking about Salah wanting to get out and again we've agreed it's all a fair day and you just said Salah mightn't even be there and we all talk about Liverpool you know they're kind of a centre of the club they're back people it doesn't sound right I'd be made if he's not there we're usually talking about just at other clubs not with Liverpool are the fans alright with him

55:15Gary Neville: at the minute Jay what's going on no not really no why have they gone from because you've said the manager is always the god he's won a league which is just like unbelievable why is this different you know what I was exactly what you were saying early on the season I always remember I was at a charity function the one Roy come to I invited you all sorry I didn't get the info

55:35Ian Wright: no problem I think Liverpool lost that day to Nottingham Forest the home 3-0 I think that might have been October, November something like that a lot of Liverpool fans in the room and I was shocked with how many were talking about the manager I was like it took me aback so for the majority of this season I've said what you've said but I don't think there's any problem with not winning the league again sort of the following season I don't think I think there's understanding that okay the situation with Jota a lot of change the Salah situation for the manager I think the problem is that there's been no sign of improvement.

56:13It's almost like, OK, we're not winning every week last week, but the performance, it's not even like you play well. You look at performance and you're like, Jesus Christ, that was awful. Tottenham, Nottingham Forest away. I felt halfway through the season, the manager needed a really good second half of the season. Not necessarily on lots of wins, but you can feel his team moving forward. And it might be like, OK, maybe Salah's not playing. You see Ekotike and Veyrton, and maybe a different something a little bit that you can hang your hat on for next season. And we're at the stage now with seven or eight games to go that you're like, oh, the Brighton game.

56:47It's like there's nothing to keep you going. And that's my thing with the manager. And also the supporters have, certainly online, but whatever, social media, the match-going fans in Anfield after the Tottenham game. Was it the Tottenham game? Yeah, the Tottenham game. and I was there at the end and I thought I think he might have lost quite a bit of the match it just it felt like not just like a little bit when everyone goes it was like people were angry and it's the fact that he hasn't been able to alter these poor performances and results that it's a bit like and what you don't want to get to and it reminds me a little bit of Ten Hag I know Ten Hag didn't win the league but Ten Hag's first season was really good remember you said do you win the cup you win the cup final and at one stage you felt like it was going somewhere then the second season you win the league cup final yeah but then the second season was really poor I know you win the FA Cup and Liverpool could win the FA Cup they could win a Champions League and if you win the Champions League you're fucking staying of course it is but but you end up keeping Ten Hag the next season you won't win the Champions League though will it ok well we'll see we'll see well I tell you what this team's a lot better than the team that I played and that won the Champions League but so you think they'll win the Champions League no I don't think they'll win the Champions League Gary's trying to get a headline but the point I'm trying to make the point I'm trying to make is I'm a little bit and I said this on commentary is this the players or is this Slott?

58:07And what I mean by that is what we saw Slott do last season, the players that they've brought in, which he is part of, can they do what he wants or what Liverpool supporters want? It's like they all want to be technical on the ball. They don't want to defend. No one wants to run or chase back or they make over the team. Now, is that on the manager or is that on the recruitment team? And I always think when there's such a feeling against a manager, it feels to me from supporters. that you know I think the worst thing you can do is when you start the next season and that manager then brought more players and you're moving more to his style again is that you get to the end of September or October and you think we only need to change the manager and that's just that is the worst thing I think that's what's happened with you a few times with Amaran actually and Ten Hag you'd almost change it two months into a season you're like oh my god and I just think it's going to be so difficult for the manager to get supporters back on side so one defeat in August the first away game of the season, everyone's going to be like,

59:07Gary Neville: The Liverpool hierarchy have always been very measured, haven't they, in terms of quite stable. Do you think they're going to wobble because of that? I don't think they'll wobble just because of fan sentiment. I think they should be seriously looking at why has the manager not been able to change this? Not necessarily winning every week. Is Xabi Alonso just too obvious, that one? That he's there? I think that heightens things a little bit. or, you know, he looks like, you know, when you think of boxes to be ticked, but then you can look at whether you agree with this or not, you know, use of being managers, but Slott's played him twice for Liverpool and beat him twice.

59:45You know, for Leverkusen and Real Madrid, whether that's, you know,

59:48Ian Wright: Xabi's got a style of play that Liverpool fans can recognise. A style of play, I mean, look at it, to be fair. You know, I just want to mention something. His style of play was pretty good last season. Yeah, but like, Liverpool are more, whatever everybody wants. You can't talk about a style of play from your club don't go there but what everybody wants because the generation of Liverpool fans for 10 years saw Klopp and for me it was the best football in the world it wasn't the most successful that was Pep but it was definitely the best the most exciting and every supporter just wanted to go back to Klopp football now what manager can play Klopp football and you know what I don't want us to end up doing what you've been doing for 20 years oh Ferguson Klopp was you're not going to get that football again you can still win a different way Liverpool won a different way last season this idea that you're going to get you know Jürgen Klopp mark too he's the original you're going to get an impersonator you know so don't have this thing constantly like oh Alex Ferguson or Man United wingers or we do this or we do that honestly fucking hell Klopp's done his thing and it's his thing and the next manager who comes in does his thing Slott's doing his thing it was brilliant last season it's not working this season we'll see how it goes but whoever manager comes in it's not like oh what was Jürgen Klopp doing no do what you do that's what he fucking brought you in for Anyway, have a rest.

1:01:01OK. Send us your whoop data. They're the only people not fucking sponsoring this show. What's this?

1:01:13Gary Neville: Just quickly, just quickly. Carrie, you made a statement. I want to go around the table. You made a statement that Mo Salah is the second best foreign player ever to play in the Premier League behind Thierry Henry. is that something we agree with, yes or no? You haven't given us much time to think about it. So basically, is Mo Salah just behind Thierry Henry? I think his numbers are incredible. His numbers are incredible. But the only thing is, when you look at kind of other wide players... Roy, Silva, all these boys, I don't know. Ronaldo. I don't remember Ronaldo. So is it yes or no? Yes or no?

1:01:49Gary Neville: I don't think so. I think Cristiano, so I'll start off first. I think Cristiano, in my mind, for four years... Just the Premier League, not as Real Madrid stuff. Yeah, your Premier League. No, you know what? I love Mo Salah. I'm going to go yes Mo Salah yes I think it's numbers I'd say no No Who have you got in front of him? Ronaldo Yeah De Bruyne Mo Salah Yeah Kevin De Bruyne You know what Some of the stuff Mo Salah did With the ball Went out Are you saying yes or no Jill? I'm going yes I'm going yes Okay Three yeses And two no's Okay Stick to Football Is brought to you by Arm Clothing

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1:03:38Gary Neville: We're going to move on to Liam Resenia because, look, it's an interesting one. I'm going to go back to the first stick to football that we did after. First, I'm going to read out Enzo Fernandes' statement after the PSG loss. We lost a manager who gave us identity, structure and direction, a World Cup winner, and no one, not even the players, understands why. Mid-season, everything changed. The system collapsed, the stability went with it, which is quite strong from your captain, or vice-captain, sorry. And then I think when Liam Messina was first appointed, we've got quotes here from all of us.

1:04:15Gary Neville: Jill, you said, I think it was a bit of a joke, he'll last six months. Did I? Yeah.

1:04:24I think because, can I just say, I was saying that they don't give managers time, so I was saying they'll probably give them six months. What did Roy say?

1:04:31Gary Neville: So, Roy, you said they talk about criteria, but if there's a criteria, why do so many get it wrong? Which I think was probably saying it was a doubtful appointment. Caro, you said, I look, it might be a bit of a worry of where the game is going because sporting directors are becoming so powerful. The sporting directors actually feel like the manager doesn't need to be amazing. We're amazing and we just put it almost like as a head coach. They're not winning the league. Chelsea are not winning the league with Rossini as a manager. A big part of football for me is those big managers, those giant figures.

1:05:01Gary Neville: He is not a manager for that club, quite strong at the time. Very strong. I said... Am I so wrong? I said they have a relatively young sporting department. They've now got another young manager. They've got young players. To me, I just thought they would put someone with real experience in to give guidance to them. so I was doubting the fact that you've got a young sporting department young players young players he'd be alright he'd sign a six year deal wouldn't he Ian you said with everything going on with Chelsea over the last few years I think you were the most supportive of the appointment at the time I think it could work out a good appointment when you look at him being at Strasbourg he knows the players I think he has a great opportunity he knows the club

1:05:36Ian Wright: I love that one he knows the players

1:05:39Gary Neville: because they were at Strasbourg look to be fair that's helped the huddle the huddle is something that I Very strongly about the undefeated. What was it, a round of ref?

1:05:48Ian Wright: Yeah, I spoke very strongly against it. It first happened around the ball first, wasn't it?

1:05:53Gary Neville: Yeah, but I spoke very strongly against it. Not necessarily because of Liam Messina, because he said it was something that the players wanted to do. But my honest view of that is, if you've played football since you were five, you've trained every single day. You've had videos, you've slept well, you've eaten well. You've had that many conversations about the game. You know every single player that's on the opposition team, because you've basically been forced to watch them for the previous 24 hours. You've gone into the change room 10 minutes before. You've had your last little bits of words in the change room.

1:06:21Gary Neville: If you need words 5-10 seconds before a match starts, you're fucked. You're well and truly done. It's a nonsense. It's a gimmick. It's an absolute gimmick. But then we'll praise Harland for doing his huddle. No, no. Honestly, all huddles. Yeah, no good. It was rather referee. The referee was. You've got to respect the ball. Huddle's okay. It's just obviously where it is. Where are we at with the whole thing? Lots of teams do it, don't they? Lots of teams do that. Again, I agree with you. I think if you need another little chat before the game, you're in trouble. Maybe for sure, maybe. But what do we think about the whole thing, just generally?

1:06:59Gary Neville: Liam's obviously a good young coach. We've had Wayne Rooney on here who's worked with him. He's a fantastic coach. He's obviously someone who's desperately trying to, and he's won quite a lot of matches at Chelsea, but he's just started to turn, hasn't he? It's not just turned in terms of results. he's turned in terms of the personal stuff that's now being aimed towards him

1:07:15Ian Wright: memes that's the thing and only results can change that for him but like you can the Chelsea fans I speak to they're already just they're so negative they've lost the last four Ian yeah of course yeah they've lost the last four but at the same time we're talking about a young manager who's trying to get himself going all they talk about but you're never going to get time at Chelsea are you but this is why yeah but this is why if you're a young manager as soon as any young manager goes to Chelsea as soon as they have any sort even experienced managers they've done it with better managers than him they're going to get rid of you that's the club this is why you try to support why are we surprised yeah of course you try to support because you think can he win a few so he can get them on side of course but then what happens is he's lost a few but then now the way they're coming from his personality and stuff it's just like now it's like a pile on it feels really bullyish I think they've got United and City next haven't they as well I think they've got some typical games it's a job you can't turn down for obvious reasons when would he get that chance again?

1:08:12But if you're a Chelsea fan or anybody, you're looking, he's just over-promoted. So he's gone from Strasbourg here to Chelsea, one of the biggest clubs in Europe, won the Champions League twice in the last, whatever it is. But why can't he turn it down, Jamie? I know what you're saying. No, no. If you speak to him, it's like we spoke to Ange and Daichi and these people going into Naringa Forest, you know you'll only be there for a few months. It's hard to turn down. It's like even Frank. But I think some managers have to be brave to go... Should Frank Lampard, should he have turned it down? Well, yeah, Frank, when he went back, he went back the second day.

1:08:43Yeah, I don't think he should have gone back, of course. He's seen as a yes-man for the ownership, isn't he? Right. So he's seen straight away. So the supporters are going on, no respect for you at all. They're seen as a yes-man. They don't like the ownership. They chant about the ownership. If you listen, when you're watching Chelsea on TV, they're chanting about the ownership every single game. And he's just seen as their yes-man. Their man, yeah. You know, their guy. And from the supporters' point of view as well, I always think there's something about Chelsea that's a bit different to most clubs that are really aggressive and I mean that in the nicest possible sense in that it's ruthless they expect to go and get a Champions League winning manager and even if he doesn't and Charlotte he'll move on we're getting the next one we're getting the next one

1:09:20Gary Neville: Are you talking about now or the historic Chelsea and the Ramaphane but what I'm saying is this generation of Chelsea are used to winning this idea that it's a five year plan and we're building to something that's Tottenham that's maybe Arsenal under Arteta it's not Chelsea they're like get rid of you Chelsea could go from Chelsea could go from They could go from finishing sixth and they'd win the league the next year. And we used to criticise, not criticise, we'd say, oh, it's a bit harsh what they're doing to a manager. But I used to look at it, I actually admired it. It was so ruthless. Everybody knew, if you don't win the league or go close to win the league, you're gone.

1:09:50And you get the next fella in. And what Chelsea had an ability to do, even when they weren't winning leagues, they'd win a cup, an FA Cup, or they'd get a Carabao, they'd win the UEFA Cup, or they'd just keep collecting trophies. Chelsea's record in the last sort of, like a good few years, you know what, I can't remember what it is off the top of my head. I think it's about 10 years since they won a domestic cup. You know, like an FA Cup or a Carlin Cup or a Carabao Cup. Chelsea were always winning them. They were always in the final. And it's like this thing that they're always building. Building for what?

1:10:19This generation of Chelsea, I suppose, used to expect to win something silver. They're not into this building for the future. If they're buying our young players, then obviously that's what they're... Yeah, but it's like, where does it eventually get to? and I can't believe the Enzo Fernandes stuff I think Chelsea got five or six brilliant players like really really good I think of Rhys James Caicedo Fernandes Palmer I think the lad up front is going to be a good player Pedro I think he looks like a really good player and maybe the clever yeah but what I'm saying is my point being is eventually they're going to go what the fuck's this I should be playing a team that are going for the Champions

1:10:59Gary Neville: well he's almost said that hasn't he well that's what what I'm saying is you can't keep Bill for what? He said that. Enzo Fernandes has said, we had a manager in Moresca that it feels like, obviously, they believed in and he's now saying, sort of, we've now changed.

1:11:09Ian Wright: Like Jamie's saying, though, you know, whatever we think about Liam being a yes man, Moresca's obviously not a yes man and the guys know that he's not a yes man. This is why they're obviously upset that he's gone. I think it's unfair

1:11:19Gary Neville: to call Liam Rossini a yes man. I didn't call him a yes man, I said the supporters will say him as a yes man. I mean, I think, look, he's gone in there, he's got a level of intelligence that, to be fair, you don't ordinarily see from English coaches. And to be fair... That'll go down well. No, I mean, in his interviews and the way that he articulates things, and it's obviously now, to be fair, he's being mocked, brutally being mocked. I must admit, I don't look at him at all. I just think that you've got to look at the owners and think they're a young group of players, an average age of 24, they're the youngest group of players in the league.

1:11:52Gary Neville: You've got young sporting directors relative to what would be their experience and should be at a top club in Europe. you've got to have some experience somewhere. And it has to be the head coach, surely. Surely the head coach... Could he have brought somebody in with him? Who, Liam, you mean? Yeah, Liam. Except if you're sending us question marks over him and he's perceived to be a yes man, at least bring in some staff around you where you're going, well, he's inexperienced. Yeah, but I've got people around me who are like... Right, I think... I mean, praise Carrick for bringing Holland in with him.

1:12:17Gary Neville: So could he bring somebody in with him? I agree with that. Was he allowed to do that? I think Steve Holland's got a massive amount of experience. He's actually got a tough... I would have seen you bring in somebody like him. Yeah, no, I'm saying, I think that was a big appointment by Michael to get Steve Holland and we don't know how that happened in terms of the orchestration of it but I think it was a bit of a masterstroke because he's tough on the training pitch with players he demands standards I don't know what Liam's got alongside him in terms of that experience on the training pitch but you can't have But we would have heard if he'd brought somebody in that year You can't have a young manager, young players young owners in terms of Premier League they're young owners If they've got young players do they not need what you're saying like what Arteta's had at Arsenal like a bit of a building is that what you're saying?

1:12:56like do you think they would it's like what I'm saying is I think you need to so where did they finish last season Chelsea fourth so where are they going to finish this year fourth I don't see with Arsenal you could almost feel like even though it started maybe lower eighth a couple of times it's like boom and I remember with my own club at Liverpool where we didn't win the league but under Julien Benitez you feel like every season you're just taking the next step with Chelsea it doesn't feel like it's exactly going he's only had 15 matches I'm talking about the project of Chelsea this idea of buying younger players I don't see where it's like...

1:13:26It feels like a lamb to the slaughter a little bit. Yeah, but the perception of a manager, Gary... For Liam, it does.

1:13:30Gary Neville: It feels like the owners have put a lamb to the slaughter a little bit in terms of what's... It's brutal, to be fair. Gary, the perception of the manager, when he comes in, obviously, just around the referee, that's from the player's point of view. Where were they getting well beaten against? In Europe last week, and he's given lads a piece of paper as they're going on. There's like a minute to go on there. 8-2 down. So you've got to be careful with all that. That doesn't help. Because that's what people jump on. You can sit there and go, give the manager time, but perception that's been put out there to the media, sometimes through the club, the players aren't happy with the bits of paper and ex-players are slagging them off going, what, are you giving a piece of paper when the game's over?

1:14:04It's like 60 seconds left. That's where he's got to be careful. Yeah, yeah, it might be something like that, but you've got to be careful. That's where that momentum of negativity comes towards.

1:14:14Ian Wright: Who's the player? We saw the video, the player who done the video on him, on Liam Racine. Kevin Kilban. That was out of order, that wasn't it? It was just so... I didn't see that. Have you seen it? I didn't like that. Have you got it? Has anyone got it? No, he... It's so ladies and me. And he said that he's completely different to what he was as a player. Like he's swallowing a dick. It's just like... But you're going to be different as a manager and a player, aren't you?

1:14:35Gary Neville: To be honest, I don't think we've ever talked about other people's opinions on this show. But obviously, Kevin has played with him, Liam Rossini. And he said, look, I've played with him. He said, I just can't recognise this individual. Almost in some way, it was a massive takedown of him. Yeah. which, you know, ultimately, you know, he said he's changed, you know, he swallowed a dictionary. That's Kevin who'd done Dancing on Ice, wasn't it? Do I just want to make that clear?

1:15:02Ian Wright: The reality TV before Gone to Walk. Yeah, but Gary, I saw a reputable, like, journalist as well, girl. That type of thing was really good in Dancing on Ice. He'd done a whole bit on him about it's an act and how, you know what I mean, the players don't... I don't think it's an act. I think he's a good guy. He's saying it's an act. He's clothes. He was talking about his clothes. We're talking about a young man. What is he supposed to... He said he wants to see him in a car coat. He should be... What are they talking about? Everything other than what he's doing. He looks better than I did, Valencia.

1:15:33Ian Wright: If you want to criticise... I'm changing every week. If you want to criticise his methods, the notes and that, then do that. But like, you know, to dig him out like that... You've got to be careful about that already. Like, with no way to stop him. That's not helping yourself with that. Yeah, but to be honest, that wasn't good. That wasn't good. But again, you look at, like I say, with the Kevin Kilband, he might have changed. He might have changed going through because to find the place where he is to say, right, I'm going to speak like this and I'm going to do... What is wrong with that?

1:15:59Gary Neville: Yeah. Ian, you're right. Because who in the change room is exactly the same 10, 15 years later when they're a coach or a manager or a pundit? Everyone's different. Yeah, because they're not in charge of the players, are they? Obviously, find out the philosophy. It's horrible to see. It is. How does this play out? Because ultimately, Chelsea... But are we surprised? I'll say to interrupt. Are we surprised the way it's panning out of Chelsea? No, I don't think so. It's the same old stuff with Chelsea, isn't it? I've seen it before. They're still on the edge. They've got a game against Port Vale coming up, I think, in the FA Cup.

1:16:26Gary Neville: Then they play City United. So they've got a chance to win the FA Cup. They obviously, to be fair, finished in the Champions League places last year. They've still got a chance of getting in the Champions League. It's going to look at the moment. It's tight up there in terms of what's going to happen. They've said that, I read a report this morning that, and it was obviously someone had been briefed in the paper, that he'll be the manager next season, unless it falls off a cliff this season. I mean, horrendous. But even if he doesn't make the Champions League places,

1:16:53Ian Wright: it will come down to how much players respect him. He'll still be there next season. It always comes down to how the players feel about him. But if the vice-captain...

1:17:00Gary Neville: I want to read this statement again because I think it's quite brutal after the PSG game. Say it again, though. We lost a manager who gave us identity, structure and direction, a Club World Cup winner, and no-one, not even the players, understands why. Mid-season, everything changed. The system collapsed. the stability went with him. That is a brutal statement. For Enzo, who's, to be fair, a fantastic player, he's a World Cup winner, he's the best player on the pitch type thing for Chelsea. That is a brutal statement. Was he asked a specific question, though? Or did he just come out? No, that was in...

1:17:29I listened to a football podcast and he was explaining it, so he was speaking to someone from his own country. That's the translation. No, I get that.

1:17:37Ian Wright: That's when they go to the internationals and they think that no-one over here is going to know what they're saying. but that is a direct I just wonder what question he was asked why you said to him he's a good player but coming to someone if you're not really all happy with that stuff you can go that's what you do with him he's a really good player

1:17:54Gary Neville: he's got like a I think he's got like an eight year well this is a lot oh he's fine that's my thing I can never get my head around it's like how can they ever get out

1:18:01Ian Wright: I'm not saying you want to get out can you imagine if the Chelsea players now you mentioned to get out the young the whole the young players all the way through they might have bio-causes for like and then you're looking at how do you get out there's no way that you're not wanting to get out Chelsea at the moment if you're one of those top players I wonder how Cole Palmer feels right now about what's going on in the future but they signed the deals though they signed the deals I've no sympathy from them they've signed the deals they sold them the dream and I don't know at the moment can you see it what young player would sign a 7 or 8 year deal with the Bosman he would he wouldn't know I did I know but not know I know he wouldn't

1:18:36Gary Neville: yeah I signed a 7 year deal how old were you if you gave me stability I never once took for granted the idea that you couldn't get injured, you couldn't get all of a sudden lose your foot. You're a lucky lad, you're playing for Man Utd. I played for United. If they offer me a seven-year deal, I'm just really happy. I'm good. I'm good. I'm fine. Nice. I'm cool. How old were you when you signed that? 14.

1:18:59Gary Neville: Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Thomas Tuchel is named his 35-man squad for the upcoming England games. And I know we've talked about this guy a million times. Trent? Remember we said last season we were going to have a little stud. But Wayne Rooney, I mean, look, Ben White's come in also as well, hasn't he, for Kwanzaa. Yeah. Wayne Rooney said, how can Trent Alexander-Arnold, who's playing for Real Madrid, not be in a 35-man England squad?

1:19:36Ian Wright: I understand that. We're talking 35. If it was 20-odd and you think, OK, well, he's still getting himself going up Real Madrid, he's doing a lot better now, but 35? It's incredible. It's 37. It's 37. It's probably harder to leave people out. Surely there's got to be something else there. Because on ability, he's in there. The strange thing is when people say Trent about his defensive stuff, but he must look at the other defenders ahead of him and go, well, they're not a great defensive leader. It's not as if his two girls have gone, I like Lads to be rock solid at the back. and some of the lads ahead of him.

1:20:09They're not even good defenders.

1:20:10Gary Neville: I mean, you've got, so right backs, you've got Jed Spence, essentially. You can't be just... You've got Liveramento, you've got Konza. You've got Konza, Liveramento and Jed Spence that could play right back. And are they much better? Konza couldn't play right back as a centre. Are they much better than Trent Defensive? Jed Spence, Liveramento and Konza. Konza. Konza. Konza's centre. Konza could play right back. I thought you meant Kwanza. He has played right back.

1:20:31Ian Wright: No, but Konza has played right back. See them, they can play left and right. But Spence and... Can I tell you something? They can play left back and right back. Why do people talk about the English side going, yeah, but they can play in different order. You want lads who are really good? Don't be a jack of all trades.

1:20:44Gary Neville: But Rhys James, by the way, is not in the squad. Trippier is not in the squad. James is injured. Yeah, James is injured. Yeah, no, my point is, if Rhys James and Trippier were in there with Livermenter, you'd say, okay. No, Trippier's not getting us. No, I get that, but what I'm saying is they're specialist right backs. They're not in there. Kyle Walker's not in there. He's retired. He retired. I get that. Kyle Walker, if you said a few years ago, three years ago, Dick's in.

1:21:10Gary Neville: If you said a few years ago, you've got four right-backs, it was incredible, Trent, Rhys James, Trippier and Kyle Walker. If you said, Rhys James is injured, Kyle Walker and Trippier are pretty much retired and Trent's still not in, you'd be going, what's going on? Especially on the back of his performances against City as well, I thought he played well. Very well, yeah. That's what I mean, he'd be in, it's got to be something. I saw him against Atletico. It's nothing to do with, Is he not happy with him in the camp? And there was talk of him being... Bellingham, him Bellingham were best mates in a bit.

1:21:42But he's not a bad lad. He's a bad lad. He's a bad lad. Sometimes managers... When he's on the 35 one, and people were saying he should be in that, I understood a little bit, because he hasn't played for Tuchel. He's not been in the other squads all season. I think he's only played about 25 minutes for Tuchel as the England manager. But when he brought... And the other ones have been in. So Jed Spencer's been in the squads. Whether you think he's good enough or not, he's been picking them. so he's only picked what he's been picking but when he brought Ben White in I was like wow that was the one that I thought Ben White doesn't Ben White's only played seven league games for Arsenal that's what I'm saying that does feel did he get interviewed on it he must have got asked about it what did he say he just said I don't know what did he say he said he hadn't spoke to him he said he hadn't spoke to him he hadn't even spoke to him no ratted you look at that squad if you analyse defensively that English that's not good no defensively anyway

1:22:34Gary Neville: Anyway, you're right. The only other one that I think was probably, Oli Watkins obviously has been having a tough time all the way he scored at the weekend, was Danny Welbeck, obviously wasn't. And to be fair, I think people have been saying, yeah, but he knows what Danny can do. No, no, no, no. If you're picking a 35-man squad, two months out from a World Cup, you're picking all the players that you're thinking to take. But if you're a player like Trent, or you're left out of a 35, 37 squad, I still think that's on you. That's still on the player. You must go, how have I not done enough to persuade a manager to get me in a squad?

1:23:02He must have done stuff. There must be something. It can't be just an injury. There must be something. When he's been in the squad, it's not necessarily about abilities. But in the group, Tuchel said from day one, I need lads who are good travellers and who are good to be left. Tourists. All this type of thing. There's something, obviously, about him he doesn't like. Clearly. It must be,

1:23:18Gary Neville: it is personal. He just played well against Manchester City in games. Yeah, but if he doesn't like your person, but you still have to problem then, you're going, well, I can't leave him out. You don't have to like everybody, but going, there's something amiss, of course. But even if, you said, players don't like me. Managers don't love every player on the squad but he goes, listen, I've got to bring him in. He's top. I don't think he's great around the place but I know come the crunch he'll do the business but for him to be gone, I'm not sure about him from a football point of view and a personality point of view.

1:23:45Ian Wright: I didn't mention Welbeck. Yeah, I've seen him. For Danny to, he's got Solanke's in, right? And Dominic Cowart-Lewish. I'm pleased with Dominic and that one. I thought that, like, you know, you say that. I think Welbeck's better than them two. Yeah, Yeah, but the thing is, you could probably bring Danny Welbeck in. Let me see what this guy... I thought Danny would be in. I thought he would be in. I thought he's had more than a good enough season. He's a good lad around the place. Is Jordan Henderson in? I like Jordan. I think you should give him an apology.

1:24:17Gary Neville: Last question. I've just made it up. Will Ireland... Sorry. You know, Ben, will Ireland get to the World Cup? I hope so. First and foremost, they've got to win that. Let them focus on that game. They've got a chance. They've got momentum with them. A decent experience squad. No one thought they'd get into this position. Hopefully they'll grab it. Big game. That's tomorrow night, isn't it? Yeah. And then if they win. When are Wales wins? Tuesday. We're talking about Ireland. Fuck Wales. Jumping in with Wales. Because Ireland.

1:24:45Ian Wright: Huge one for Ireland. Yeah. Because Harry Wilson's having the kind of season where he could go to the World Cup and go to another level as well. I just love Harry Wilson's season so far. Yeah. I love it. Jeez, where's that come from? No, I don't know. Where's that come from? It's just come out. You said Fulham, they're drifting. No, no. Wells, Wells, Craig Bellamy. You know what I mean? I think he's got something going with them. You know, we'll see how it goes. Come back to Ireland, yeah. Good luck with Ireland anyway. And that's the end. It's Rowland Dublin. Yeah, I know, but I still love Ireland.

1:25:17Ian Wright: I'm just saying, you know. Ireland Wales. I love what happened with Ireland Wales. That's the end of the episode. I'm cutting it off. Ireland Wales. Ireland Wales. That's not Ireland.

1:25:53We'll be right back. the full episodes on YouTube.

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1:27:26Thank you.