The Man City Verdict That Changes Everything | Stick to Football EP 151

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2:50What's that flavour again? Cinnamon. No. Is it? No. Apple. No. What's the new flavour everyone has? Oh my God, I love it. You've got an ice cream now. Pistachio. Pistachio. When did pistachio come out? Do you know what I mean?

3:10Gary Neville: When did pistachio come out? It's everywhere now though, isn't it? Has anyone heard of pistachio when you were a kid? Pistachio ice cream now is just unbelievable. Do you know what's pistachio? Do you know what's made it quite, I think, famous in the last few years? Do you know what Dubai chocolate? Have you ever tried it? Anything pistachio now is just like... Have you had the chocolate, though, with that... Why does it have to be from Dubai? No, that's the name of it. It's called Dubai chocolate. Oh. I get the bites from Marks and Spencer's on the train. What bites? Pistachio bites? Yeah, like pistachio in the middle of the chocolate.

3:39What? Like the Dubai chocolate.

3:41Gary Neville: Why does it have to be... I don't know, that's what it's called. If you're going to Marks and Spencer's for chocolate, you've just got to get the giant buttons. giant milk buttons Kieran is there a podcast financial fair play is there an FFP of podcasts can you imagine to be able to afford Kieran exactly who has the most staff I'd hate to have to do that would you say I mean Super League was massive would you say this is bigger yeah I think this is going to linger for longer because Super League was a thing that happened it was all over quick boom boom boom this has just gone on for that long and I think it's going to go on really long because they're not backing down, either the owners at all.

4:20They're not being... They're almost doubling down, aren't they?

4:24Gary Neville: Well, they are publicly. You wonder behind the scenes whether they would be trying to get a deal done that's... Everyone thought they'd get off. We all thought... I thought they'd get like 52 or 36 of them. I was convinced they were always guilty of it, but I just didn't see how the Premier League would beat them in the legal side. This goes out anyway, this bit, doesn't it? I'll save this for the show. No, you don't have to save it for the show. No, but I just couldn't see the Premier League beating them. From a legal perspective? Yeah, I just didn't need to tangle them up. The lawyers, they'd have the money, they'd keep throwing at it.

5:01Gary Neville: I thought the most bizarre thing was City's statement saying that they've got irrefutable evidence. Unbelievable. That basically it's not right. I had to watch it twice. I watched that interview. You've just been found guilty. Do it before the guilty. It was a bit Trump-esque, wasn't it? Yes, a bit like... Putin, it was Trump. It was like, oh, my God. I thought it made him look more guilty, if anything, doing that video. Oh, my God. Yeah.

5:29Gary Neville: It's a shocker for the Premier League. Oh. It's a shocker. You think of all them games you watched over those years with that team. Mm. And how brilliant that team is and was. Some of the best players you've ever seen. And you just think you're watching that all the way through.

5:45Ian Wright: You have to walk in like this when you get an episode like this.

5:49Gary Neville: we're not here no here's our jury whoa

5:57Gary Neville: what's this

5:59Roy Keane: oh

5:59Gary Neville: here's the case for the defence

6:06Roy Keane: I need to be rocky today

6:09Ian Wright: only joking

6:10Roy Keane: oh god

6:11Gary Neville: what's this on here is this everything gal on here it's just I just thought for the first time you might want some of the stuff in front of you you might not but

6:19Roy Keane: Gary rang us and I was like do you want us to sit this one out? I said no. I said you've got a lot of people coming on.

6:26Gary Neville: You're an ambassador for Sydney.

6:29Roy Keane: No, I'm not an ambassador.

6:30Gary Neville: Were you ever an ambassador for Sydney? Er...

6:33Ian Wright: Nice colours and different colours. I'm going to take this home with me. She never got no payment. When you stop playing you never got paid once by them. She was commercial director. She was commercial director between 2009 and 2018.

6:47Roy Keane: No, I didn't. Obviously, I got paid off them when I played.

6:52Gary Neville: Just hesitating on every ounce of it. No, I'm not. I'm actually not. You haven't got to worry. Is that nothing wrong? No, I'm... I'm going to visit you.

7:00Roy Keane: For God's sake. Send your cake with it, mate. Yeah, you wouldn't... You'd never come and visit us. Visit you? Of course I would. Visit you, yeah. No, I actually... I visit loads of people in prison. No, but my thoughts are... It is sad for football and it's sad for the club, isn't it? It affects, like, so many people this week. City or the other club? No, I mean, for, like, City in terms of everybody who probably works at the club, like, who this week... That's the sad side of it, Jill. Yeah, but, Jill, that's the sad side.

7:33Ian Wright: Everything else. Them owners don't care about them. They don't care about anything like that.

7:36Roy Keane: What they've done, Jill. But a club, this is what I mean, like, in weeks like this, and we've got to remember there's going to be an appeal as well, but, like, it affects so many people, doesn't it? And every time I've turned... Jill getting the appeal. Yeah, come on, Jill. I'll... I'll... I'll... I'll push our appeal, though. Oh, my God.

7:56Ian Wright: There's an appeal. There is an appeal. That's what I just said. LAUGHTER It was just a stalling tactic, obviously. Jill, the thing is with the appeal, the appeal is just another way for them to try and see if they can find a loophole to get out of the charges that they've been found guilty of. It's not like they go to an appeal and they say, yep, you're right, you didn't do it, so go back to normal. They're going to go and try and find a way to kick it further in the grass.

8:22Roy Keane: But is there a chance that it could, that the appeal could work? There must be, else there wouldn't be appealing. Do you believe the city people when they're talking? When you see the owner come out, because you're part of the city, you've got that affiliation with them. Do you believe what he's saying? Well, I think when a club means a lot to you, on a personal level, it does mean a lot for me. It was the reason I got to play professional football. You know what I mean? It gave me... I didn't think my dream existed and this club did that. So it does mean a lot, so it's hard to speak about it.

8:53Roy Keane: Of course. So I think when this Premier League statement come out, the club then comes out straight away and says, look, we are innocent. And I think because of affiliation to the club, then you want to believe that. That's what I think, that's the right way. Exactly. your football club is like your family isn't it it's like you want to believe and you want it to be true so much don't you so I get that feel for them

9:25Gary Neville: David thanks for coming on obviously there's only one story dominating the headlines this week and you did an incredible job last Friday along with the Athletic in breaking that story just want to take you back when did you first get the call when did you first get the message that this was happening and you must have been i mean jumping around at that point trying to sort of validate the story yeah exactly so we've had many false thorns in this process haven't we with people thinking a verdict was coming i remember to spring around april time 2025 there was a feeling inside city people we were speaking to there were suggesting we've we're getting the verdict soon.

10:04That's what we've been told. And I think Pep Guardiola said within the next couple of months at one point, he said that on the record. But on Thursday night, my colleague at The Athletic, Matt Slater, sent a message into our group saying, a contact of his had said, like the beacons, that this is happening, that the verdict has been delivered to Manchester City and to the Premier League. That had to happen at the same time. When you say Premier League, you mean all the other clubs or just the Premier League? So the Premier League, they're the two parties in this dispute. But it emerged, I think the first place I saw it was on the BBC, Dale Johnson reported that the clubs had been notified by the Premier League.

10:52They had had to sign NDAs, very strict requirements, and then that would give them access to a document to read the summary of the findings. so you know by the time Matt had alerted us and we at the Athletic start making our checks speaking to contacts and sources into Friday when I was over at the Portugal Football Summit in Lisbon I had a speaking commitment over there about the transfer window and actually how we work the process journalistically to do this sort of thing and I got a call when I was on stage from one of the many people I had tried to get hold of to understand what was going on at that moment I I didn't know what they were calling back about.

11:33But then when I got off stage, I made a number of calls. And always with these things, whether it's a transfer story, a new contract, an injury, ownership related things, people talk. A lot of people know what's going on, whether they've signed NDAs or not, word spreads. And I didn't actually work as hard on this to get the information than I have on quite a lot of other stories. Because, I mean, it's been going on for so long. And I think there was probably a sense of relief that there was some kind of step forward in the process, maybe at all ends, City, Premier League, other clubs. And so, yeah, you perform your checks, balances, you corroborate, you make sure you've scrutinised your sources.

12:16I happened to be over there with our editor-in-chief, Laura Williamson, and therefore she was all over me in terms of making sure I had followed due process because you don't want to get this one wrong of all of the stories out there. But actually, it's the same sort of methodical procedure you would apply to any story in this case. It just happens to have been more high profile. And then when you feel comfortable with all of your various information, you speak to the two parties, Manchester City, Premier League, to give them a right of reply. City provided a statement. The Premier League said nothing, no comments.

12:54And then you have to have the courage to push the button and go with it. and then hope you're right. How long was it between that call?

13:02Gary Neville: So you released it, what, five o 'clock, was it, on Friday? Yeah, there or thereabouts. That moment from Thursday evening when you get the initial we've got the virtue, you've heard that 114, that 115, what takes the time? Is it just the actual validation of the story for that next, well, effectively nearly 20 hours? Well, it was just that the verdict had been delivered was Matt's information to the parties and so you've got to try and understand... When did you hear the first that they were guilty of all charges? When I came off stage at the Portugal Football Summit on Friday lunchtime. So I'm making lots of checks.

13:36And within that period, colleagues are too. And I'm sure other organisations, judging by how quickly some of the newspapers and broadcasters published after we went, we weren't the only ones privy to this and working on it. And at any moment, like with any story, it can come out elsewhere and you sort of win some, lose some. That's the nature of the beast. but so my role was to try and first understand if Matt's information on it being delivered was true and then if it is which it was what the news is what the verdict is have City been cleared have City been found guilty and then what have they been found guilty of and you make so many different checks to try and sort of triangulate all your information and these are very trusted relationships that have been built up over many, many years to try and get to the point where you've got as little doubt as possible, that you've got a sufficient picture to be able to go with it at this point.

14:34And although we learned so much more when the actual verdict was published by the Premier League, we had a clear direction of travel on Friday. What was City's response when you first rang them? It's just a standard procedure. I've got good relationships with all of these clubs. And it goes back many years across so many different stories. And you know each other personally in most of these cases. And so as ever, they were quite calm and professional. There's not much they could have said because they're bound by confidentiality. So there was a short statement issued by a spokesperson and that was it.

15:11It was sort of a cordial conversation, short, no detail. but also it's very rare that you get shouting matches and things like that unless there's something fundamentally wrong or you've stepped out of line. And similar with the Premier League, just dealt with it in the normal way. They didn't want to say anything. Sorry, if you were wrong with that story, when you're saying there's no shouting matches, there's not a lot they can say, but if it wasn't true, they'd deny it. It's basically the fact that they don't deny it tells you, right, this is true. I can go with this.

15:43Roy Keane: But they said innocent, didn't they? Is that not them, like, in their statement, saying that they're innocent? Is that not them denying it? They believe they're innocent, but that doesn't change the verdict that they've been found guilty. So I think in that sort of situation, I don't think they could have interacted because of the confidentiality. So I had to be very careful just because it wasn't denied or confirmed. I can't assume. I have to rely on the strength of my sourcing, not on their response. Now, I could guess that, like with many stories, depending on the strength of your relationship with the communications director or press officer, that they might, in a transfer story or something like that, say, you're along the wrong lines here.

16:36Maybe they would have done that in this case. I've got no idea. That's me speculating. I hazard a guess that they just couldn't say anything. But the fact that I was given a statement and there was no kind of animosity and I was so sure you can't really go to these people if you're not sure of your information because they're not there to help you. There may be in some cases, if you're trying to set up an interview or something like that, or you might have a better relationship with some clubs. It's a bit less sensitive. They want some information out there. They're a bit more talkative. There's no rules in this sort of relationship.

17:18But on that case, I just, I really needed to notify them that it was coming and then it's up to them how they respond.

17:25Gary Neville: I know you're professional, but are you getting the buzz off this then as well? Are you like players going to a big game? me thinking this is this is big one they're waiting for this is huge are you still trying to be like let's straight porter properly and don't make any mistakes the integrity that i pride myself on and it runs through my veins is has taught me to go through the process as opposed to get excited or um start sort of buzzing about you know what you might be about to do it's about getting it right and you don't want to make a mistake because you know going through my head is if I get it wrong it could break my career or I'd be mortified if if something wasn't accurate and in my industry you don't get everything spot on but you try and do everything within your power too but yeah of course I'd be lying if I didn't say there's a there's a there's more tension with this for sure because it's the one everybody's been waiting for it's the big game it's a massive It's the big game, but it's not about the journalist.

18:27It's very kind of people to talk about that.

18:29Gary Neville: It is the biggest story you'll have ever reported in your life. I know you've done a lot of big stories, but this is the biggest, I would imagine, by some way. This is a huge story. It's one of the biggest stories in Premier League and football history. It is, and you're aware of that, but that just guides my diligence in terms of making sure you go through the steps and get it right. And I promise you, those steps, Even though there's not like a script or a syllabus or a magic potion, you do tend to follow similar procedure, whether you're dealing with something in the Conference League or in the Premier League and even to this extent.

19:03And I just want to say very quickly on that, I don't take pleasure from one of the sorriest episodes in English European world football history. Like, I'm not getting an exhilaration from a club being found guilty of industrial level cheating, which they still deny. The fan base that will be in pieces as a result of this, former players and staff and executives, many of whom I know at that club and others, who are at the height of their game. Man City have appointed and brought through so many good people, professionals, players. The industry is full of former Manchester City and CFG executives, players, coaches, staff members, on the men's and women's side.

19:56And so I don't...

19:59Gary Neville: David, you also don't have to explain that. Let's be clear, you're a journalist. We have a free press in this country. And your job is to basically bring stories to us of this nature. If we stop bringing stories of this nature forward, then to be honest with you, we're in real trouble. So my view is accepting the fact that there are obviously people involved in this. You know, you did absolutely everything that you needed to do. And you don't have to obviously, to be fair, apologize to anybody. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Disney+.

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23:49Gary Neville: What is the noise coming out of the other clubs? I'm not going to name any clubs, but the Premier League clubs that you'll be speaking to right now, are they smelling blood? And do they want their pound of flesh? Or are they got any compassion or empathy or sympathy? Where is the mindset of the other Premier League clubs right now? Just quickly on your last point, very concise answer. I'm governed by impartiality. So irrespective of the relationships that you're talking about and whether you feel good about people. You've just got to do your job. And Manchester City and the other clubs know that.

24:24And that's why actually the process was probably quite cordial because I've done it for my whole career. And this was in the public's interest. I was getting a lot of stick and abuse from Manchester City fans saying whoever called you up and leaked it, it wasn't a leak as such. I don't regard it as a leak. You may have a different definition of what a leak is. I think I uncovered it and followed due process to perform a really important piece of journalism. And interestingly, I've had no complaints from anybody involved. The only complaints and stick have come from social media because there's a lot of emotion and people being upset.

25:03In terms of other clubs, so immediately when the story came out, you got a lot of, wow, shock, didn't see this coming today, the extent of it, or the actual verdict, thought they would be innocent or whatever. And then when you start talking to people around the game, clubs, governing bodies, on all sides of this, there was a little bit, especially among those who feel they've been wronged as a result of... Competing clubs. Yeah, competing clubs. But if you think about the ramifications, it doesn't just go to competing clubs. There's individuals, players who have had their careers changed as a result of this.

25:46There are executives. What do you mean by that? There are players who will have dreamed of qualifying for the Champions League and never played in the Champions League as a result of finishing behind Manchester City in this period. There'll be managers who lost their job, places like Liverpool and teams that got relegated. We've all been talking about this for days. So some of that was celebratory, actually, among those that feel they've been cheated and that they knew this all along in their mind, that Manchester City were banged to rights in their view and that they have just been desperate for the process to vindicate what they were aware of throughout.

26:25And that's why some time ago, I think it was Man United, Arsenal, Tottenham, Liverpool, served notice, reserved their rights to take legal action if and when a guilty conclusion materialises to the tune of£200 million, I think it was in potential legal action. Each or between them? Each, from what we heard at the time.

26:50Gary Neville: Four clubs have got legal notices served on Manchester City for£200 million each. That was pretty much what was reported at the time. And then fast forward to Friday, plenty of conversations I had suggested it won't just be the top teams, it's going to be lower teams too, who are now revving up the engines. They had already appointed lawyers to work on this situation And there will be ambulance chasers too, but there are also credible situations developing at clubs, clubs speaking to each other, talk of potential class action where they unite to try and do something that we've never seen in English, European, world football or probably sport as a whole.

27:30We don't know that will happen. Manchester City protest and plead their innocence. They say that they will be vindicated and that they've got this irrefutable body of evidence. But if there is legal action to be taken, it won't come until after sanctions and appeals. So we're quite a way off from that now. but they do intend, and I wonder if individuals do as well. I don't know, but if this goes against Manchester City at the very end, it opens up a gamut of possibilities that you can't even get your head around. And if you see in Italy with Caltropoli, there's still debates and legal action going on 20 years later that hasn't been resolved.

28:13That doesn't mean the football doesn't continue. It has in Italy, and Juventus are back in the top flight, and so it will continue here. but it doesn't mean that beneath the surface there won't be ructions for many years to come.

28:23Ian Wright: It's a slam dunk for lawyers then, really, by the looks of things. They're the ones, Roy, you're saying, the journalists thinking, this is my big thing. This is the lawyers' big thing, right? This is the one. This is one where they're all going to just come out and it's going to go on for years.

28:37Gary Neville: I think, David, you'll know the number maybe. The Premier League have spent how much on lawyers in the last 12 to 18 months, two years. It's over 100 million, isn't it? It's something stupid. Yeah, exactly. it's been remarkable spend and so therefore Premier League is made off of its members the Premier League doesn't have the money, it's the members the clubs providing that resource and that has been spent to a mind-blowing level and I don't think it's in anybody's interest to continue that for much longer but Manchester City clearly are going to fight until the bitter end so if you thought the legal fees were done now, you'd be mistaken Will there ever be an end to this?

29:14so it's just going to go it just feels I was watching it last night when I was seeing the city owners and of course they have the right to defend themselves they have the right to appear like everybody does in the country if you're getting charged with something but it just feels to me when listening to the language of the people at the top of the city it's a bit like this is never going to go away and they're just going to dig the heels in that much I don't see how they can own a football club in this country I mean what they've done over the last sort of 10 years what they've been found guilty of But the fact they've come out and they're so entrenched in the view, and it almost seems just gaslighting the whole fan base, really, and just dragging them with them on this campaign.

29:53Gary Neville: You made the point earlier about, obviously, people at Man City, some good people who would be hurt by all of this, but you also must understand the idea of people celebrating these verdicts. Yeah. Because you said people's jobs are dependent on, and if this cheating's been going on, then people have a right to celebrate these verdicts as well. Yeah, they can. The only thing is we're not at the end of the process. So technically, we could be having a very different conversation here. There is a justice system, and Manchester City already overturned the UEFA verdict in 2020, and they intend to do the same with this.

30:25Yeah, but wasn't that was time bars, wasn't it? Yeah, so it's a different situation. There are differences. There was a time bar on that that's not with this, but there's still recourse for appeal and to go to levels of court that are higher, such as the high courts. What we don't know is the exact procedure and process from here. So in terms of what we now thankfully have some clarity on is that Manchester City can appeal the verdict by Friday and then a panel will be set up to decide the sanctions.

30:51Gary Neville: And what could be the grounds for that? Sorry, I don't want to be too deep. What grounds could they appeal it? Could they question the people who made the decision? Yeah, I don't think the evidence, the evidence has all been submitted. That's what I mean, yeah. So it's now whether they can prove anything was wrong with the process. Right. So they're up against it. That's their case. Their case will be dependent on that, really. Yeah. So the verdict has been made. It's been called a final decision on the evidence, the hearing. But if they can pick holes in the procedural elements, then perhaps they could turn something around.

31:27Ian Wright: David, isn't it the fact they found them guilty? So you're saying that in the process, what's the process then? What about the process can they do that's going to say, OK, so sorry we got it wrong? The process. What's that? They're guilty, right? Yeah, I mean... So if they didn't cross the I's and dot the T's somewhere, they can get something back off of that. I don't know what they're... Are they looking for a loophole, basically? Yes. Well, the core of their argument seems to be this point about owner funding being disguised as sponsorship revenue. And so the independent commission clearly viewed that as coming from Manchester City's owner.

32:05and I detect from everything I've seen and read and heard from their on-record statements, Khaldun and Ferran Soriano, that they contest that the money came from their owner. And so if there's anything in how the independent commission came to that decision that they can prove was wrong, then there could be a different conversation. And then there's other things you hear going around, like the make-up of the Independent Commission panel. We don't know who's on that panel, do we? No. So the appeal would be completely different people? The sanctioning panel, I believe, will be the same. And they would have already been thinking about that during the verdict process, but the appeal will be a new panel, yeah.

32:50Roy Keane: Can this be cleared up by the end of the season? Because it's just not good, is it? People didn't even know England were playing last night because the whole talk is just about this. Obviously, you guys were there.

33:04Gary Neville: The sanctions will come, I think, before the end of the city. So, obviously, City will appeal on Friday or before Friday. The sanctions will come quite quickly thereafter, won't they? Yeah, we've been led to believe that there's no reason why they shouldn't. The panel can convene, the Premier League and City can make their representations, and then it's up to the panel to decide. So there is an element of control in that. They can issue the sanctions. What we don't know is if those sanctions will be applied immediately or whether it has to wait for the end of the appeal. Because in the case of Burnley and Everton, Burnley won, Everton paid£35 million.

33:41Everton are now challenging that, but the money did go across. So I don't know if sanctions can start to be enforced immediately in a similar case or whether, because this is such a bigger and more complex case and the strength of the appeal will presumably be endless, whether it has to wait until the end. I suspect it would be farcical for English football if it has to wait until the end to do anything, if this current direction of travel is to continue, because the Premier League and English football and European football will be taking place with a black cloud hanging over it, and I don't think that's desired by anybody.

34:31Gary Neville: David, there's just one sheet that I want to get, but the verdict that was read out last night, there were two things that, just to be fair, just jumped out of the, well, just generally the brutal language that was used just generally in the verdict, but the word sham, which you very rarely hear that word, to be honest with you, on a regular basis in your life, let alone, to be fair, in a process like this. but the other one was the£900 million of basically funding that Manchester City have allegedly sort of put in through their, well not allegedly, have been found guilty of putting in through their owners.

35:03Gary Neville: I just want to get a sheet because from 2009 through to 2018, they spent£1.2 billion on players and they've put£900 million of extra funding into the club and the foundations of what Manchester City built, the likes of Aguero, Kompany, De Bruyne, David Silva, Fernandinho, all those players were bought in that time. Just to be categoric, are we saying that Manchester City would not have been able to fund that group of players without that owner funding and that everything that was won in that time and then, to be fair, probably followed on after with the foundations that were built is now basically something that's proven that they...

35:48I don't think we can say that. I've got very prominent contacts who don't understand why City committed the level of breaches that they did in terms of the level of investment on top of what was permitted. Because they feel that City could have won appointed staff and signed players to get ahead of their rivals without committing such aggressive breaches.

36:13Gary Neville: How could they have done that, Dave? because the players that they signed, if you look at this 2009-10 through to 2018, and on there you've got Tevez, you've got Yaya Torre, you've got Silva, you've got Milner, you've got Dzeko, you've got Aguero, Nasri, Clichy, you've got Fernandinho. Yeah. You've got, keep reading them, David, it's important, De Bruyne, Sterling, Otamendi, Stones, Sané, Jesus, Gondohan. You've got Laporte, Walker, Bernardo, Henderson. You've got basically the... You mentioned Jill. Scott. But you've got basically there the foundation of a dynasty of 15 years. The£900 million that basically is the extra sponsorship money has funded that entire programme of transfers, has it not?

36:59Yeah, so it's up to people like you guys to decide how much they needed to succeed or compete with the biggest clubs. They could have done it, you know, did they need to go to that extent?

37:09Gary Neville: But if you take£900 million off that, you've only got£300 million, a lot of those players I've just named wouldn't have been able to have been afforded. True, but Leicester City won the Premier League with a far lower... But Leicester City didn't win the treble or weren't centurions. Yeah, so the extent of the success. But I think we're missing the point here. I think Manchester City wanted to get there and get there in a hurry and prepare the ground for Pep Guardiola. And that's the key point here. It wasn't about them not being able to compete and succeed. They just wanted it now.

37:39Ian Wright: They wanted it now.

37:40Gary Neville: You used the phrase industrial level financial doping or whatever you said before. They've done that to acquire this team for Pep Guardiola to go and build a dynasty. Yeah, and even at the beginning when they faced a very significant financial loss after Abu Dhabi took control in 2008, the documents, the leaked documents from De Spiegel that Manchester City obviously say are illegal. They bear out a story of a club that was on course to hit a record financial loss for English football. They were going to go above Chelsea and they didn't want to do that. So suddenly you saw these sponsorship deals come in at a level that were not commensurate with the trajectory that Manchester City were on in terms of their income.

38:35So they needed, and UEFA was bringing in financial fair play at this point in time. And so to make sure that they complied with the rules, to make sure that they became competitive, Mancini then won the first trophy and the groundwork was being prepared for a team to win everything. They didn't come just to be competitive. They came to win everything. That was said on the record by the guy who fronted the takeover initially before departing. And so that gives you the context of an ownership that didn't just want to get there. They wanted to get there fast and they wanted to knock everybody off their perch.

39:12They wanted to dominate.

39:12Roy Keane: Do you believe, though, that money, obviously we've seen a lot of clubs spend a lot of money, is the only reason behind success? You obviously still need a good manager, a good process. I feel like when people talk now, they're just like, oh, Pep this, Pep. He's a genius, isn't he, with what he did. You've seen a lot of teams spend a lot of money and get no success.

39:35Ian Wright: They have got a lot of success with the money they've spent.

39:39Gary Neville: I have said this, to be fair, regularly throughout the last few years. I actually personally think that every club has to abide by the rules. That's obvious. I don't like the rule itself. I don't like the fact that Newcastle... Two separate arguments. I don't like the fact that Aston Villa and Newcastle and other clubs can't invest in their team and in their players and they can't try and get up to the level the idea of what Jack Walker did 30 years ago at Blackburn where he invested his own money into a football club as an owner which was well beyond the level of revenues that they had to put owner funding and to build a title winning team I do believe should be the gift of every single owner of a football club

40:15Ian Wright: Gal, you're saying just pure billionaires

40:18Gary Neville: where's the game going? There has to be a limit, Ian, but my point is, I mean, I don't want to get into this. I've always said I think owners should be able to invest at the same level as the highest revenue club in the league, which would be Manchester United, historically, or Liverpool. So I always think that owner funding should be allowed in. However, it's not allowed in. So they broke the rules and they've been found guilty of it. However, whether you agree with the rules or not is a separate matter. However, the one thing that's actually startling about this is Manchester City voted for the rules.

40:44Gary Neville: They voted for this system. I know people, they talk about the red cartel and they talk about the act factor, but they did vote for this as well. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Disney+. David, I just want to move on to the punishments. You've reported this story, you've explained to us exactly what's going on, you've told us what the process is now going to be. What do you feel personally, you've got an incredible amount of knowledge, you speak to a lot of people, is the appropriate consequence and punishment for Manchester City to receive off the back of this guilty verdict?

41:21Well, the first thing to say is if it finishes as a guilty verdict, because they obviously are... But the sanctions are going to come out before that anyway, so... Yeah, OK, so I can only say not what I believe, because that's completely irrelevant. And this discourse in the public domain is totally understandable, but none of us have a clue what they're going to get hit by. We've never seen this before. We've never seen this before. So the whole spectrum is open to the independent commission and that could be the most devastating consequences for Manchester City or it could technically be a telling off and a slap on the wrists.

41:59Given that they've been found guilty of all of the financial charges and the majority of the compliance ones as well, you would imagine it will be the decision of the independent commission will be an extremely heavy punishment. There's no other conceivable correlation to the fact that they've...

42:21Ian Wright: What does that look like? They're licensing that. Well, I'm just guessing here, but you're talking about... I don't imagine they would be playing in the Premier League if a punishment is commensurate to the verdict. Can they get rid of the owners? Well, that would be more a question for the independent regulator. I don't see how the owners can continue. I just think the stain of this and how big this is, how long it's gone on for, the fact that they're so entrenched in their view that everybody, you know, the world's against us, whatever. And I just think when them owners are there in five years' time, even if City get back on their feet and they're being successful and doing well, they will always be taking the club.

43:04I almost think Manchester City is a club, because it's not Man City, it's the owners for me. You've got the supporters who'll always be, the club's been there 100 years, different players will be in and out, supporters will always love their club and that's why they're sticking by the club right now because we'll probably all be the same with our own club but the ownership will change at different stages of a football club. It's the owners who've done this to Manchester City and this will never go away all the time there here. And listen, every owner, you just mentioned Jack Walker, that was an old-fashioned owner.

43:34The local guy earns a lot of money, loves to buy his football club and do well. We're in a different world now, so people from all over the world have got no affiliation with our clubs. So why are they here? So I know FSG come to Liverpool to make money. They want Liverpool to do well, but they come to make money. I've got no problem with that. I understand that. But when you think about why Abu Dhabi came to Manchester City, they've got all the power in the world. They've got all the money in the world. What is it?

44:01Ian Wright: They are. Exactly. So it's sports washing. That's what it was all about. So this is an absolute disaster for them. Because for the last 10 years, you know better than me, they've transformed a part of Manchester. Manchester City is seen as this. Pep Guardiola, as you just said, the best manager in the world, winning everything. Football's amazing. And this was the thing that was stopping them in the tracks, this whole PR game machine. That's why they're here. They're not here to make money. They've got more money than anyone can ever dream of. So that's why they're so entrenched in the view. They can't back down and admit they were wrong.

44:32so they're going to keep going and keep going because that's the only reason they're here for PR. So I think what you're suggesting is they need to be got rid of. I don't think it works like that in terms of you want them to go or somebody wants them to go. I think eventually City fans, I think, are being gaslighted at the moment and they want their club to be right. But I think they're dragging the club on where they're taking them to now and I think the more stuff that's going to come out over these next few weeks or months, I think eventually City fans will feel like we just need this ownership to move on and we get back to our club again.

45:04Yeah, that's a different point. If that comes, that's an organic thing and it would be a decision for the owners if they listen to their fans. What I'm saying is that it would have to be at this point in time to get what you initially suggested. It would have to be being removed because of breaches in terms of the independent regulator finding from the end of the process that these are not fit and proper owners and directors. Now, there is a section in the report, the summary that has come out, that has redacted the name of somebody it claims knew nothing about this. And there has been an assumption in the last 24 hours or so that that is Sheikh Mansour.

45:48We don't know that for a fact. So he knows nothing that's gone on at the time? The redacted name was found by the independent commission to have known nothing about the ownership, funding, the sponsorship deals. And so if that is Sheikh Mansour, he is the owner that you're talking about and he may be exonerated in the process. And then and so I'm not talking about the fans and I'm talking about the actual facts. the people that could potentially face action, you imagine, is the executives that are found by the case. So he's going to throw them under the bus.

46:27Gary Neville: To have broken the rules. David, I own a football club and I've done for 11 years and comply with this very strict owners and directors test that we have to comply with every single year. The owners and directors test outlines requirements to attribute an individual from owning a football club or being a director of a football club. These include criminal convictions for a wide range of offences, is a ban by a sporting or professional body or breaches of certain key football regulations, such as match-fixing. The test is applied to prospective owners and directors who are then subject to a review on a seasonal basis.

46:57Gary Neville: It's irrelevant whether he knew about it or not. He is the responsible individual for that football club. If someone said to me that Salford were doing something similar to this in respect of breaking rules, I couldn't sit there and say, well, my CFO did it and I didn't know anything about it. I'm sorry. As an owner of a business or a football club, you have to take responsibility and be accountable for everything that goes on in that business. I just mean it will take a body to forcibly remove somebody unless they decide to go. And they will need the grounds for that. What Cara says, look, to be fair, Manchester City will recover anyway as a football club because Manchester City is a football club who's been there long before these owners and will be long there after them.

47:36Gary Neville: And it's got an immense history. Points deductions, fines. Transfer bans. Transfer bans, removing the titles, not giving them to others, removing the titles, are significant punishments. The only punishment that, to be fair, would have huge consequence on such a lot, the biggest consequence would be removal of the owners. That is the only consequence, if I was Manchester City, that I would be worried about. And as a fan of Manchester City, if you wanted to keep the investment that you've currently got, that would be the one that I would be most concerned. However, if you're in football and you're thinking about a consequence, what can be more serious than industrial level financial doping that we've seen and they've been found guilty of Can I just ask you as an owner yourself how the club would exist if the Manchester City owners are removed?

48:24Gary Neville: It's happened in the last few years with Roman Abramovich that was a billionaire that was funding Chelsea You'd need a quick takeover You'd have a transition where you'd put it up on the market you would obviously have a period whereby I can't remember what happened at Chelsea but effectively they were allowed to carry on trading like when you go into administration you're allowed to carry on trading and there's a transition where people buy it. But I'm not suggesting that is the punishment. I'm just saying that is a constant. I mean, that owners and directors test that I have to comply with as an owner of Salford, they have to comply with as an owner of Manchester City.

48:51Gary Neville: That is real. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Have you any closing thoughts, David? I just think it's incredibly sad for the game because, you know, I said yesterday, the only winners are the lawyers. And a lot of responses were like, no, if you were an afflicted club, you're celebrating today. But we haven't even reached the end of this yet. I don't think anybody around this. I'm chilled. It's chilling, this. This is not celebratory. I support Manchester United. You support Liverpool. You've played for Manchester United. You've played for City. This is chilling. To listen to this, it's chilling. Yeah.

49:29So my closing thoughts are it's a bleak day situation for not just City, who their name will always be marked as a result of this case in a not too dissimilar way to Juventus in Italy. A lot of people involved, it will be on their sort of record and consciousness. It's really depressing for the beautiful game. It's anything but beautiful. And it raises a lot of questions about what we've been watching. And as the game descends into potential legal challenge left, right and centre from clubs, individuals, broadcasters, sponsors, it could be complete carnage. And none of us want to see that. On the more optimistic side, we've been through this for years now.

50:22I mean, it was 2023 February, I think, when the 115 was delivered. The Spiegel leak started in November of 2018. there was a UEFA case in 2014 against Manchester City so this is not new and throughout that period I think Premier League television rights have gone up eyeballs have come to the game there have been amazing storylines and I don't see people turning away from the Premier League so far despite us having lived in this until now you could say the more positive slant is that it is part of the soap opera it's part of the story It's one of the narratives that has, I don't want to be too trite about it, that has made the Premier League compelling and people want to know what's going on.

51:09Gary Neville: The Italian game has suffered immeasurably in the last 25 years, maybe from after that. We played against Juventus, we've alluded to this before, we felt at the time that this wasn't right. And the Italian, I'm not saying that's going to happen to the Premier League, but we always think that we've got an enormous integrity, the Premier League, that we are the sort of league that sets the standard. and it's other leagues that have got corruption, fraud, doping scandals, match fixing, referee scandals. This has now come into our country. This has now come into our league. This is the greatest export that we have in our country, in the world.

51:45Gary Neville: If you go around the world and you talk about basically Liverpool, Manchester, Arsenal, you talk about the Premier League. People talk about the Premier League more than anything when you tell them where you're from in the world. and at the moment we're being dragged through the mud yeah whichever way you look at it it's a blight on the Premier League the English the European and the World Game David thank you very much well done on breaking the story brilliant great job well done David thank you so much you had a great cheers righty

52:14Ian Wright: cheers Jill you had a great you had a great you had a great you had a great you had a great you had a great you had a great you had a great you had a great you had a great oh no oh no blame Gaz

52:24Gary Neville: sorry Honestly. Something else that's broke. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Disney+. Obviously, we've just listened to David there. Obviously, he broke the story. He's got an incredible knowledge about the detail of it. I'll come to you, Ian, first and work around. What are your sort of overriding thoughts having just listened to that?

52:45Ian Wright: Well, there's something up there. You're summing up what it means to the country and what's happened and the enormity of this. Like I mentioned it last night, like it's on an industrial scale, the cheating. I can't stop thinking about, like you mentioned, City and where they've come from, 100 years, whatever it is. For them to come in and do this and do it knowingly that they are going to do this. They didn't have the patience. They had the money to be patient. But they've come in and they've knowingly done this to cook the books, to get themselves in a position where they can challenge Manchester United because Manchester United are right there and they're like their little brothers.

53:22Ian Wright: They don't take no notice of it. Then they're starting to beat Man United 6-1 and stuff like that. They wanted it quick and they've gone about it the wrong way. And the more I think about it, the sadder I feel, because the fans got every right to feel happy with what's going on, because they're being told that nothing's going on. So the more you think of it, Gal, it's just, I'm just very sad the whole situation's happened. And I have no, I've got nothing but distaste for the owners and what they've done because they're very, very, very wealthy people. but they could have done this properly and they didn't because they're just a vanity project.

53:55Ian Wright: They genuinely do not care about anything. The English football, what the fans think, they don't care about anything. They just wanted to win for PR. This is all for PR. This is bollocks.

54:08Gary Neville: Follow that. Roy? Yeah, all sorts of emotions. It's sad, isn't it? It's sad that... But you're glad as well they got caught. They got caught. They're cheating. Yeah. You think of all the teams out there doing their best in whatever.

54:24Ian Wright: yeah I think

54:24Gary Neville: righty's something pretty well there you know

54:26Ian Wright: it's sad Roy it just makes you feel so bad and I speak to someone like you're getting messages through City fans and all the memes and the stuff and you do feel for them and I get a lot of shit from City because obviously you mentioned I mentioned it I mentioned the 115 charges and I never mentioned it derogatory towards them I always mention it in a way I hope for City's sake the players the fans and everybody that this is that they're not guilty of these so they can enjoy what they've achieved because it was great, the period. It's great, the team.

54:56Gary Neville: Well, we've been praising them for a while. We've been saying brilliant to watch Pep, the style of play, the bright. We've been praising them.

55:02Ian Wright: But they've cheated. And that's it.

55:04Gary Neville: And the thing is, they know they're cheating and they must have known how much the people that were going to be hurting.

55:10Ian Wright: That's the one way. Kept it up. That's the one way. Kept it up. When did a penny drop? They said, listen, Mark. I just want the City fans to have that reckoning. They'll have the reckoning themselves. It will come to them and they'll think and they'll have a double down because of what they've won or they'll say, you know, these people, like you said, James, they need to get the owners out and start again because it's going to have to go that way for me with City.

55:31Gary Neville: The trust will be gone now for the owners, won't it? The trust will be gone for the owners and the supporters. Imagine being a player at Man City now. If you're a player... If I was De Bruyne, I think of De Bruyne because you think of the great players, City, and you went through that list there, but those players didn't just become great players because they went to City. Kevin De Bruyne was one of the best players in the world. David Silva's one of the best players in the world. Now, David Silva's still done things for Spain. So if you take his trophies off him, he still won the World Cup. He's won the Ours.

55:59But something like De Bruyne, who I think was one of the greatest players we've ever seen in the Premier League, he probably could have played for anybody in the top six clubs in the world, but he chose City. Okay, maybe the wages were a bit more there, or whatever. 150 odd million at that time, remember? Yeah, but what I'm saying is he was a talent who could have played anywhere. Now, he's not one with Belgium. Now his career's almost at an end now. And his career's going to be, at minimum, going to have asterisks all around it and what he's won and what he's achieved. And I'm just thinking, you only get one career.

56:28Man City says no one remembers him for nothing else. And the reason I feel a bit sorry for the players is, less so with the management, because I don't know what's going on with Pep, because you see the Mancini stuff, don't you, with the two contracts. A manager's in contact with an owner every day, or the CEO every day, probably four or five times a day. A player's not. No. You sign that contract, You might see him after a game once a month. And that's your career. And I'm like, everyone, I'd be so angry. And I think eventually, I think the ex-players, I think the supporters will turn on the ownership.

57:01I really do believe that because right now, they're so desperate. Listen, I understand how difficult it is for you today, Jill, because it's your club and you want to believe them so much and you've got relationships with people. But I just think the longer this goes on, I think the people at the club will turn on the ownership.

57:16Gary Neville: Also, you have the players who've been there the last few years, or the players who've left, what would the players have just signed for Man City? What would they be thinking? They go to Liverpool in a couple of weeks. What's their mindset? I think it'd be very difficult for City this evening.

57:30Roy Keane: I think that's why it needs sorting straight away, though, doesn't it, I think, for the players, really?

57:36Ian Wright: I don't know how they get over that, Jill. Even when it's sorted, remember, they're still thinking about what they might be losing. How do you get over it as a player?

57:43Gary Neville: I think the reason that Manchester City fans will be finding it quite difficult right now and maybe seeing it different than Manchester United fans, Arsenal fans, Liverpool fans, is that because Manchester United, Liverpool and Arsenal have had dynasties and massive success before, they would turn straight away, I think, on the current ownership if they were doing this. I think Manchester City, because what the fans have seen there in the last 15 years, it's not the first time they've ever been successful, but this is their most successful period ever. They've become a European world giant. in the last 10 to 15 years, they will be thinking, it's almost established Manchester City in a different way globally, it's established Manchester City in a different way in Europe, it's established Manchester City as a brand of football.

58:29Gary Neville: They'll be trying to hang on to it and believe that their own, I don't think Manchester United... Never would it, any stage thinking this is too good to be true, do you reckon? Any stage think these charges are going to be found guilty of all these charges? I always think there are two simple things, because when you sort of look at all these charges, Roy, I always think there are two simple things. Your comment, I think, is always a really good one. how can Manchester City have more commercial revenue than Real Madrid? Just say it to yourself. It's impossible. Just say it to yourself. And then the other one is, why would Roberto Mancini be getting paid nearly£2 million a year in Abu Dhabi for four days' work and£2 million a year in England for his job as Manchester City manager?

59:05Gary Neville: So when you just look at those two things, you just say, that just to me unlocks everything. But you know the other one, I thought you were going to use that example. It was another one I used, I felt there was two. It was like the Ray Madrid commercial revenue stuff. And on the other hand, when the 115 stuff comes out, when you read it, it's too much information, isn't it? But the basic premise of it is the commercial revenue, that's impossible to do, to beat Ray Madrid. And on the other hand, if anybody you knew or yourself, you were charged by the police and you were adamant you'd done something wrong and you had irrefutable evidence that it hadn't happened, It'd be over in a day.

59:46It'd be over in a week. This has dragged on for years because City wanted it to drag on. So this idea that they've got this evidence that they're holding back or they've had, it's just absolute nonsense. It's gaslighting the fans. It is. That's exactly what it is.

59:58Ian Wright: It's a game to make them hang on even more because they don't want them to turn. As soon as they turn, it's over. As soon as they turn, it's over. And that's what I'm saying. They need to have their reckoning so they can say, no, this is wrong. That's what needs to happen.

1:00:10Gary Neville: Look, we've never done this before on Stick to Football. We're on a topical episode. we're just going to concentrate on one topic the whole way through, but I don't think we can... We can't move anywhere else. This is so big. Can we invite Paul Gilroy in, please? Paul, in you come. Oh, he's got a folder.

1:00:25Roy Keane: I know, he can tell you. That's the decision. He's nervous already. We're going to see the final page. This is your life? This is the final page of the decision. Blank, look, I was redacted. If you want to be clear on what happened, there it is.

1:00:43Gary Neville: Paul, if you want to guarantee someone being nervous, it's a lawyer walking towards Cara with a folder.

1:00:51Gary Neville: This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Disney+.

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1:02:32Gary Neville: Paul, just to give you some context, you've worked obviously in the game with clubs, with managers around legal cases for decades. And the first question that I wanted to ask you, have you ever seen in a statement or a verdict of this type of nature, language as brutal that was used last night by the Premier League to describe this Manchester City case? The word sham in particular I'm referring to, which effectively brings visions of fraud, fake, all those words.

1:03:07Ian Wright: Isn't it an illegal term though, sham? What they use in those words?

1:03:09Gary Neville: Yeah, but just talk to us about the language that was used in the verdict last night and in the statements. I think that word is used eight times in the decision. If you actually read the decision, even if it's redacted, it's actually quite difficult to read the decision. because it's 40 pages, but you get to the first page and it says, please refer to the 37 appendices to this decision where more detail is given. And they haven't published those. But I don't think we need to get bogged down with the detail because it's rather summed up in the Premier League statement that accompanied the decision and in particular the statement by Richard Masters.

1:03:48because I agree with you, there's never been, to use perhaps a legalistic word, there's never been as excoriating a verdict as this in global football, I think, never mind domestic football. But can I just caveat this slightly because we'll probably get on to it. All of this is subject to an appeal and it's subject to legal challenges beyond the Premier League. and this is a party, Manchester City, which has shown itself perfectly willing to take this process external to the regulator, to go to the High Court, to get its remedies elsewhere. So I've heard Jill saying this morning, it'd be great to have this finished by the end of the season.

1:04:34Good luck with that one. Never mind this season or the next, or maybe the next five seasons. This is not going to end. unless there is an accommodation. There have been cases where regulators, leagues have got together with football clubs in difficulty like this, and they've agreed a settlement of all matters. Now, this could be so serious that the regulator might say, we have to have the interests of the Premier League at heart here. That's what it's all about. It's about the game. It's about preserving the product that we've got. And there is a necessity, therefore, for us all actually to get round the table and sort this out.

1:05:17Because otherwise, it's going to take a very, very long time. So when you're talking about five years, they wouldn't be punished within that time? Or you just think there'd be legal things going on for that time? Surely the punishment had come before that and they'd have to... Well, it's quite tricky, Jamie, because let's take an example. Not this case. Let's just think of a hypothetical case. Let's say that a punishment is decided, you're going to get a£100 million fine, you're going to get a 20-point deduction, you can't have a transfer window for three seasons, whatever. That's going to happen straight away.

1:05:50Down the line, someone says, that was all wrong, that should never have happened. What are you going to do then? What about Everton and Nottingham Forest? They had points deductions straight away. Yes, but Everton and Nottingham Forest let the matter rest. Everton and Nottingham Forest both appealed internally against their points deductions. Everton succeeded, Nottingham Forest failed. Both of them drew a line under the matter at that stage. That's what preserved the integrity of the process, the integrity of the game. Everyone got back together and they started playing each other. Everton back, playing again, Nottingham Forest.

1:06:30But Gary's main question, yeah, it is massive. I keep saying subject to appeal. You've got to be very careful. These processes can take time, and we could end up... Can you just keep appealing? What I'm saying is, when you say it can take five years, it's just... So they come back from the appeal, if they lose that. Can they go again? Right. When does it end? Maybe this is the time to actually look just very briefly at what might happen, the actual detail of it. Please. Right. Do you want a folder? No, I'm going to try and do this ad lib. So, anyone who wants to look into the detail of this, the Premier League's handbook is published on its website.

1:07:05That's the rulebook. And Section W is the section that deals with this process that we've had in this case. That's the disciplinary code. And you must follow the disciplinary code. So that decides who sits on the panel, how many days you've got to appeal. All of that procedure is all ordained in Section W. The appeal is permitted under that section. There has to be obviously a different body that decides the appeal naturally. That's called an appeal board. So we've had a decision of a regulatory commission. We're now moving on to an appeal board. I actually picked up a word in the Premier League statement that made me think they've actually already appointed an appeal board.

1:07:51They've actually got an appeal board ready to go because it's supposed to happen very quickly. the rules actually say the appeal should take place within 12 weeks. No chance. Absolutely no chance. Now, it should be capable of being dealt within 12 weeks because, let me liken this to a pyramid. So at the bottom, you've got all your decisions going on at first instance. Lawyers call that first instance. That's the first decision. So your commission is your first instance decision. As you go up that decision-making pyramid, the opportunity to challenge gets less and less because at the appeal, you don't get a rerun.

1:08:32You don't run the whole thing again. You have to present grounds of appeal. So they will have to say, ground one, the regulatory commission misdirected itself in law by A, B, and C. So you can see immediately that That narrows the scope of the appeal compared to the first decision. So back to the process that Jamie was asking about. So we've got your appeal board. Let's say the appeal board either dismissed the appeal or they substantially dismissed the appeal. Remember, we're dealing with over 100 findings. It's very difficult to actually work out from the decision because of the redactions. You have to really triangulate it and go back and forth.

1:09:16when they get to the appeal if they dismiss or dismiss large part the appeal that's it for that process not so fast then you get your handbook out section x of the handbook arbitration you can then raise a complaint about what happened in section w in section x different procedure still that pyramid gets narrower because in this country there is always the supervisory power of the high court to step in as you would expect you would want it to be the case that the high court must be able to say whether it's the premier league or some tin pot organization a little amateur organization you've done this but we're going to decide what happens we are the high Court of England and Wales.

1:10:08Now, again, there are restrictions here because it's very difficult to succeed on a challenge on an arbitration in the High Court because you have to demonstrate serious irregularity or something's gone wrong with the process. And Section 69 actually expressly excludes the right to appeal on a point of law. So you can't even appeal on a point of law to the high court. You think you're out of the woods? Not yet. Competition law. And this is a very relevant topic because they've used this before, said you've used this before. You may remember the litigation about the associated party transactions.

1:10:55and they were saying that's anti-competitive. So it offends principles of competition law, etc, etc. Now, I see buried in this redacted decision yesterday, there are strong hints that that was where they were going in part at this regulatory commission. So you've got then the potential for a competition law process. But they were actually, they voted for the rules. Would that go against them? Of course it would. Of course it would. and there are many things that would go against them. Take another example. If you were to say, oh, we object to, or we object to the fact that Fred Smith sat on the panel because Fred Smith once went to a Man City game and was caught on our CCTV abusing our goalkeeper.

1:11:44Goodness knows what they might say. If you're going to make those challenges, you have to make them at the time to the body that's making the decision. What you cannot do, and this is the same in many jurisdictions in England, you cannot say, aha, I've got you on that point. There's an obvious bias. I'm going to put that in my top pocket and I'm going to wait to see if I win. And if I lose, I'm going to deploy that weapon. So although it's a long process and it's very disheartening, the system is designed, whether it's in the regulatory field or in the legal field, is designed to gradually narrow the issues so the scope to take it further is less and less and less.

1:12:29Gary Neville: Paul, in your experience, and I'm going to try and create a hypothetical where you're the lawyer for Manchester City, how difficult is it going to be for them to overturn this? Tremendously difficult. I say that slightly glibly because I don't know the case they ran. None of us have seen their submissions. This case went on for weeks, weeks and weeks and weeks. The documentation would have been vast. The submissions would have been ginormous. Don't know every angle. You get a flavour from the decision right at the beginning. They say City ran the following case. You get a little indication of what they were saying.

1:13:11They started off by saying that the Premier League body, the commission, didn't even have the power to hear the case. So they tried to throw it out? They tried to get it thrown out. Commission said, no thanks, what's your next point? They tried to get part of the case thrown out. One of the charges or the sets of charges is breaches of UEFA rules. Now, you might think, well, how can that be a charge in England? Because surely that's a matter for UEFA. The Premier League rules actually contain a section that says it is part of our rules that you follow the UEFA rules. So it was actually a breach and subject to appeal and all the rest of it, that's what the commission have found.

1:14:01So, but the people will be poring over this decision. Whether we ever get to see the full decision is a matter of debate. I think we will eventually. It's a mixed bag with these Premier League decisions. Managers' arbitration tribunals tend not to be published because the parties have to agree, which makes it quite difficult for lawyers to... We love to cite precedent. We love to say, well, in the case of such and such, this happened, therefore you should do this. It's a well-established practice. It's very difficult with Premier League decisions because lots of them aren't published, so you never get to see it unless you're in the case.

1:14:41And even if you're in the case, you're not allowed to use it because it's confidential. But Paul, if they keep appealing and they're coming up with kind of...

1:14:47Gary Neville: They haven't got a good case where somebody appeals the urine about the people on the panel. Will that frustrate them as well when they come to the punishment and the sanctions that they go? Absolutely. In fact, you've dragged your heels with this as well. That goes against them as well. There's no question. The principle applies that you don't get an extra penalty for doing this, but you don't get mitigation. You don't get something off. It's classic. Go to the Crown Court, the guy pleads guilty, he's going to get by law I think a one-third discount on his prison sentence. He's not going to get more because he said he's not guilty.

1:15:20That's why you'll hear a judge, they're often on the news these days, the judges sentencing people, they will say I'm obliged because of your guilty plea to apply a 33 % discount, therefore it will be X. The principle is exactly the same. The concept of disciplinary law follows criminal law quite closely. It's tariffs. So you need to look at the Everton case, you need to look at the Forrest case to get some kind of proportionality as to what you're going to do. Good luck with that one with this case, because this is just off the scale in terms of the numbers.

1:15:58Gary Neville: But you said that Everton and Forrest have sort of what would be taking the medicine, they've drawn a line under it and thought, OK, let's just get on with it. Obviously, it's a lot less severe. City are not going down that route. We've seen statements that have been made last night from them and obviously a statement that they've made to their staff with a video. Yes. Where does their confidence come from in their innocence, in your opinion? Well, there must be something. There must be a legal argument that they believe sits at the heart of this that they can use as a torpedo to this case. And I think we got a flavour of that from the Chief Executive's statement last night when he talked about this all boiling down to one matter, which is the sponsorship.

1:16:45That's a very tough one for them to deal with. These Premier League panellists don't get to be Premier League panellists without being at the top of their game.

1:16:56Gary Neville: So they would have been judges, lawyers, QCs? there's a panel, it's a public available panel, there are retired judges on it. I think we will see with the appeal, they may go absolutely to the top. They may get someone who is a retired Supreme Court judge. Lord Dyson, for example, sat on the Saracens case, the rugby case. And the reason they do that is to instill confidence in the public that this is someone who knows what he's talking about. This is not someone who's just been dragged in because they couldn't find anybody else. That will happen.

1:17:35Ian Wright: You think that will happen? That has to happen. When we see who's on the appeal board, you look out for the names. The chair of that appeal board will be Lord or Sir Somebody. I think, I don't know, I've got no insight.

1:17:45Roy Keane: Do they check which football team they support? Yes, not just that, Jill. Every member of the panel has to make a declaration before the case begins. Well, if they're on a panel with you lot, I mean, like, are they going to be? Paul, just to... Yeah, so Jill Scott's application to be on the app is rejected.

1:18:10Gary Neville: Paul, just quickly, what... So what... You mentioned the Premier League handbook. What are the consequences, the punishment options that are available to the Premier League's drop of the panel? Yeah, OK. Again, if people want to check this out so they can see for themselves, go and look at that handbook, Section W, Rule 54. Rule 54 sets it all out. And it sets out everything from reprimand at the top, so smack of the wrist, to fines, to the transfer bans, all of those things you would expect. but the interesting one is at the very end of that section it says or at something like any other penalty the commission deems to be appropriate that opens pandora's box that opens up your loss of titles uh handing back the cups and all the rest of it and and that is a really interesting one because what follows on from that do if you if you make a decision that someone loses their title.

1:19:18Let's take the Aguero title, for example, 2020-12. So United are playing at Sunderland. The whistle goes. At that stage, they are the champions. Aguero scores the wonder goal and City are the champions. What do you do with that league title? Do you say, well, here's the team that came second there you go there's the trophy or is it fairer to say no we're going to go through the results of that season and we're going to expunge every Man City result what does the table look like then and then we decide who comes second that's just one example of what else lies in wait here we're talking about how long this case is going to take never mind this case You've got those questions.

1:20:09You've got, when this is all done, you've got questions of individual responsibility. The Football Association would be looking at all these people who signed off accounts, whose names are on the documents. They're all defined as, quote, participants in the Football Association's rules. They can all be subject to disciplinary proceedings by the FA, never mind what's happening with the Premier League. the consequence of this and what might follow not just in terms of the Premier League decision but elsewhere are just enormous.

1:20:44Gary Neville: The one thing I just mentioned before because obviously you've said that basically any punishment is up for grabs effectively that bottom of clause. Subject to proportionality. Yeah, clause 54. Right at the end, I forget what it is. I've brought it with me. Where does the owners and directors test going to that? Yeah, it's a separate thing. You've got three different strands to this. You've got a Premier League on as a director's test. You've got an FA on as a director's test. Now, since 2025, you've got the independent football regulator. So there are three things happening here. If there's any appetite to do anything on that front, it would be a good idea for them all to talk to each other and decide who's going to take this forward.

1:21:28We don't really want to have three different sets of proceedings. But the key message is this. that test occurs every season so you have an audit they come around they check the books this person okay yes fine off you go green light if something happens in the middle of the season that changes the landscape they can step in whether that's fa premier league or the new regulator they can step in they can say we normally do this every season but that something has happened which is sufficiently important for us to deal with straight away what does straight away mean again we come back to this question of do they act now or do they wait until the due process has occurred both internally and potentially externally well can i just just

1:22:21Ian Wright: quickly and go you know with the individual players and a player that that's like he's in the club he doesn't know anything what's going on yes now they're talking about taking away Have you got a case? Definitely. Good question on that, on the player's perspective. Every contract of employment, whether it's a footballer or someone who works in a shop, has got an implied term in it. In other words, a term that's not written down. And the implied term we're talking about here is the term of trust and confidence. So if I work for you, you and I must have sufficient trust and confidence in each other to enable that relationship to work.

1:22:56If you don't trust me or I don't trust you or you call me a liar and a thief on a Tuesday, I can't work for you on a Wednesday. Trust and confidence. Now, a player could say, you have breached the implied term of trust and confidence. You are my employer. You have acted in breach of that term. And that entitles me to say, I'm ripping up my contract and I'm walking out. That is a possibility. I've seen commentators saying unlikely. It depends on so many things. What's the club going to say to the players? How do they sort it out financially? Et cetera, et cetera. But arguably, it's certainly a possibility.

1:23:36So Liverpool could sign Haaland for free next week? Yeah, why not?

1:23:40Ian Wright: He might want to come to Arsenal. Just got some mates there.

1:23:43Gary Neville: You mentioned before about just going to the owners and directors test, going back a step. It's inconceivable that they wouldn't be looked at, would it, in respect of this from the FA Premier League or the independent regulator? I have to agree with you. my only query would be the timing of that investigation. But in your professional opinion, the owners and directors will likely be looked at as part of this information. Yes, definitely. And they'll all be already be actively looking at it, each of them, and I suspect actively they're all talking to each other already. And they will have been for some time because this is the biggest show in town.

1:24:19Gary Neville: Paul, what do you think, if the guilty verdict is maintained, we know it's subject to appeal, what do you think the punishment for this will be? And I'm talking about the range. It might not just be one punishment, it may be three or four tagged together. What is the range of punishment that you believe we will see here? Very difficult to say. Taking a punt on that, trying to bear in mind the principle of proportionality, a swinging points reduction that would guarantee relegation in any given season. I think it's possible they could also impose a further points deduction, not a suspended points deduction, but one that is held in abeyance that says to the club, when you come back, as you inevitably will, you need to know that before you kick the first ball of the season, you've also got this points deduction.

1:25:18and I can't believe I'm saying this because of how enormous that sanction would be but we've never seen anything like this before and unless they do something to get rid of these charges by one of the routes I've indicated sanctions are going to follow

1:25:38Gary Neville: Paul, thank you very much for coming on I think it's been important for us to listen to the legal side of it in terms of what the process is going to be and understanding, yeah, how this may go in the next few months. Pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you, Paul. Thank you. This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Disney+. It is amazing when you think of all that. You're on about these clubs, even when you're on about Salford now. You'd have to have people in the background. You think all these top clubs that I've given, the best of contents, the best it is to make sure it's not a mess like this.

1:26:10Gary Neville: But I don't think that... I don't think somebody at an accounting level in a football club can stop this that they've been found guilty of. But there must come a point where people are sitting around who are running these clubs going, I think we're doing something wrong here. You know what I mean? Where does it go to? We eventually go, what we're doing is wrong here. It has to come. I think because of related party sponsorship agreements, I think what they've done is they've looked at Manchester United sponsorship deals with Adidas or Chevrolet back in the day and said United are getting paid£60 million a year, Liverpool are getting paid£45 million a year, a few of the Liverpool sponsors.

1:26:48Gary Neville: They thought, OK, we can put sponsorship deals in exactly the same as them. So what they've done is they've put, obviously, Etihad in at£60 million. They've put so-and-so in at£60 million. However, that's where they just thought... But if a business in Manchester or London was doing this, they'd be in the hide of trouble, wouldn't they? Yeah. If they were cooking the books. Just because it's a football club, it's a bit emotional. but just say it was a normal business. Could they go to Prillant? If this was a bank, absolutely, you'd be in serious trouble. That's why I think that ultimately this will come down to the points deductions, the sort of stripping the titles away, the fines, are a little bit of a smokescreen really, I think, in respect of, because City will recover from it.

1:27:29Gary Neville: The huge thing here is what they're going to do. What's the game, the Premier League, the independent regulator and the FA going to do with the owners and the directors? That, to me, is where this whole, you've said it before, So that's where this whole thing lies. Listen, as everyone said, no one's got a clue what the punishment should be because we've never seen this before. But I think for how long it's gone on, for how many years, it can't be like you're relegated for the season and then you come back the next season and everything's all right. It almost feels like it needs it.

1:27:54Ian Wright: It's like he said, when you asked him the question, Roy, about you're just dragging us along here. You're taking the piss. But that's backfiring on them as well. I think so now. Ten years? Yeah, I think it's something that goes on for a few years.

1:28:07Gary Neville: I think if they want an understanding of how angry the game is going to be, then Anfield will tell them a week on Sunday. Like you would never believe.

1:28:17Ian Wright: How's that worked out that the team that they're playing is Liverpool as well, with everything that's going on? That's meant to be, honestly, my mum would be saying that.

1:28:23Gary Neville: I suspect there may be banners, they'll certainly be chanting, there'll be a reception like you have never seen for them at Anfield. And to be fair, the players, to be fair, that are there, will take the brunt of it, and so will Maresca. They'll take the brunt of it. the reality of it is on that day, but it will be a brutal day. But will the players, obviously they'll have to do media in the next few weeks, with the current players and the manager, will their spin on a big one? Well, we believe we're...

1:28:47Ian Wright: I'm interested to see what the players do now, especially when... That's why I asked him about, can players have an individual case against it? There was a story last night, wasn't there, that came out, that the club got wind of this in the summer and they just sort of carried on. Obviously, they spent about£400 or£500 million. I was just wondering, if that is the case, how would you feel if you were Elliot Anderson or players who were bought in that summer?

1:29:10Gary Neville: But surely when all this evidence was, obviously the case was going on the last few years, City must have known going, we're in trouble here. They must have known. They must have known this was coming.

1:29:23Ian Wright: They just kept going, they doubled down.

1:29:25Gary Neville: If we just think the football side of it, what do you think? I mean, Roy, I saw your statement last night. You said if you were a player, you'd throw the medals in the bin. I know this, to be fair, is a point that, to be fair, will make City fans quite emotional in respect of the titles because we've all watched them win those titles. What if that happened to us at United? If United were proved to have been... I think United, I said to them, I think United, Liverpool and Arsenal players would be absolutely furious. No, but if your medals have happened to us and the club were found guilty, even after we finished, obviously, whatever, the charge against it, you wouldn't feel you've earned that right to win that title.

1:30:02Gary Neville: It doesn't seem to be how Rodri presented his initial ideas, though, on Saturday. I think he'd reflect over the... He'd have to say that, doesn't he? At the moment, he'd say, but I think over the next few weeks and months, and he got... To be fair, he was interviewed pretty quickly after the first. Sometimes you get caught out a little bit. And listen, we've all made mistakes. Would you think... I mean, look, just on the particular point, stripping Manchester City of their titles that they won, forget who they go to, forget the second place and all that. Just do you believe Manchester City should be stripped of the titles that they won?

1:30:30Ian Wright: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And no one gets them. It's just that's a blank period.

1:30:36Gary Neville: But if you were a player, would you feel you've earned that medal? I'm 100 % serious.

1:30:41Ian Wright: You do have, Roy, but the fact is they've done it in a legal way. You have done, as a player, you've done it, and this is what Rodri is probably saying.

1:30:49Gary Neville: Because they're doing it because they're cheating off the pitch. We're talking about all the players they're bringing in.

1:30:53Ian Wright: Yeah, but the cheating off the pitch has enabled them to bring in that... That's my point. We're agreeing together, yeah. Yeah.

1:30:59Gary Neville: You hear stuff coming up recently, and players are saying, and X-Men City players are saying, oh, well, they've done it on the pitch.

1:31:07Ian Wright: I know. They're deluded. Yeah, they're deluded saying that.

1:31:10Roy Keane: I'm not thinking, though, would it stay and say the Aguero moment because they still felt that moment, the fans felt that moment.

1:31:17Ian Wright: I'm not about from a player's point. Yeah, but, Gilles, they felt the moment. We all felt it. It was amazing, but now you feel differently about it because the way they've constructed the team. it stains it and this is again this is what's sad about it he's basically just got more and better players if I look at it from a Liverpool point of view and think of that Jürgen Klopp team Jürgen Klopp's team missed out on winning a league and being invincible the only game they lost was to Man City away too well you think of like we still talk about Arsenal forever invincible Liverpool won game away from that and Liverpool and the thing the frustrating thing and again I've just got my Liverpool hat on and I don't know what you're saying on the pitch in these moments.

1:31:57Gary Neville: But Jamie, you'd be saying the same if it was Liverpool or United. Of course. Is that because it's anti-Man City? No, no, of course. Of course, but what I'm saying is when you think of sort of that time, Man City had the edge on Liverpool because they had more players. Liverpool basically picked the same 11 every week. You know, the front three always played, everyone knew the team, but City just had an extra three or four players who could just get them over the line. Of course. And that's what we're talking about, those small details. That's where it comes from. It's as simple as that sometimes.

1:32:21Gary Neville: That's the difference. It's a shocking... I mean, look, forget Manchester City. It's shocking for the Premier League. It's shocking for English football. I never thought we would have something as bad as this in English football, to be fair. How would you feel? I mean, I got asked this this morning, and my feeling on it, when they talk about if you take something away from Man City and you give it to someone else, not so much give the club or Liverpool or Man United one, it just gets put on your honours list, doesn't it? You go from 20 to 21, wherever it is. But if you were a player, now all around us have been very lucky, haven't we, to win trophies.

1:32:55It's not the medal, is it? For me, it's that feeling. It's the journey. You know, the goal went in, or the referee blew the whistle, or the night out. It's like, what difference is going to go and give someone a medal now? A Liverpool player, or whoever. It doesn't mean, it's not the same. A Man United, it's not the same. That's what they've taken away from people. Bonuses, players have missed out on staff, missed out on both financially. I missed out on a UEFA Cup bonus, getting sixth, one season.

1:33:23Gary Neville: Five grand. the last case they're worried about is you I'm the only one who can't claim a league title you do a league title but you know what no one can say to me now about we're not winning a league De Bruyne hasn't won more

1:33:40Gary Neville: right this episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Disney Plus has anybody watched The Real Roonies on Disney Plus yes Disney Plus what do you think The Real Roonies on Disney Plus

1:33:55Roy Keane: You know what, I want to binge watch it and then I'm just going to start...

1:33:59Gary Neville: Wayne and his wife, they must get fed up of each other, haven't they? How many interviews can you do?

1:34:08Roy Keane: Wow!

1:34:10Ian Wright: He's one of our family. Can I tell you how I get it? Because I just love Colleen. I just adore her in the way the boys are. I just love it. I love the way Wayne's just like, yeah, all right. It's just, you're literally like a fly on the wall. It doesn't feel like there's any, like, acting up or anything. We're going to get the real keen soon, aren't we?

1:34:29Gary Neville: We've got to get them. Would you let a company be a house? I need to document it. But why do people get dressed up in their house if they're doing it?

1:34:39Gary Neville: And the house is spotless, new and normal, where people are arguing, the dog's hairs are everywhere, and there's food everywhere. You can't find your shoes. You can do it, normal stuff. Everyone dressed up, makeup, teams behind him. I like this. This is us, we're just normal people. No, it's not normal. You have 12 holidays a year. John made me laugh when he went to Waza's house, right? He's got a boxing ring in his house. I've seen him. Yeah, the two kids fighting. And literally, yeah, he basically just says, right, if they're having an hour, get in there.

1:35:09Gary Neville: Goal behind the scenes with Wayne Rooney. Watch The Real Roonies, a Hulu original series, new and exclusive on Disney+.

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1:35:51What?

1:35:53Ian Wright: I can't see it. I can't see it, Ben. Can I come across? Who are the top six oldest Premier League outfield players? I need potassium. In history or right now? Who are the top six oldest Premier League outfield players in history? In history? Come on. In the Premier League? Teddy Sheringham. Just to explain. So it's international break, isn't it? So we're mixing things up. So is it the whole... So we're doing this. who are the six oldest Premier League NFL players James Melinda just

1:36:26Gary Neville: it's the quickest segment ever look at the easy ones what's your t-shirt what's your t-shirt

1:36:32Roy Keane: World Cup USA cool t-shirt yeah

1:36:35Gary Neville: I like what you got down in Dunbar Market didn't you remember that little that's a cool

1:36:39Ian Wright: that's cool Ben I'm a cool guy

1:36:42Gary Neville: I'm a cool guy you got that free

1:36:45Ian Wright: did you pay for that for now though yeah Right, number one. Yeah, Teddy Sheridan. Right, Teddy... Oh, Teddy, Teddy. Oh, Jesus Christ. Of course, yeah, because... Teddy was 40, 41. Teddy Sheridan. Where was he at Portsmouth? Where was he at Portsmouth? Teddy Bear, Portsmouth at the end there.

1:37:02Roy Keane: Oh, my God. He was 40 and 240 years and 270. Teddy Bear, baby. Well done, Teddy. Go on, Teddy Bear. That is impressive. We should get Teddy on. So, Milner and Giggs, is that... Right, Giggs? Right, Ryan Giggs is number two. Was he 39 or what? Giggs, eh?

1:37:17Gary Neville: All the United Lads, eh? That's because of the yoga. If Robbie Fowler looked after that. Yeah. Right, OK, who was who?

1:37:24Ian Wright: James Glenn. James Glenn, number three. I've got to treat these. Got you good. I didn't say these. Got to be a keeper. Got to be a keeper. Got to be a keeper. Outfield. Outfield, gal.

1:37:33Gary Neville: Yeah, I was Barry. Oh, outfield. Outfield. I was going to say, Scott Carson is like 120. He's still there. He's still there. He's an outfield. Tommy, he's my fucker. Tommy, he's the team. He's never told him. He's 41 when he's lived for Bradford. Yeah. For 40 days. Scott Kass has lost everything now as well. Right, who's next?

1:37:50Roy Keane: Gareth Barry? Gareth Barry, no. I said Gareth Barry, but the boy said he was 28. No, no, no. Centre backs.

1:37:57Ian Wright: Goalkeepers?

1:37:58Gary Neville: Don't just throw names, don't you? Listen, let's use your brains. I'm older, yeah. I just said goalkeepers. I've got a feeling like West Ham. West Ham. Billy Bonds. We're off to players, Gary. Billy Bonds. The Premier League. Bonds in the Premier League. No, Premier League, Jimmy. You're not Premier League. You're the question, everybody. Football didn't exist. Football didn't exist until the Premier League. When was Billy Bonds' last game? You must have been. Billy Bonds was 40, had one, eh? Yeah. He's not on the list. Shilton play in the Premier League.

1:38:22Roy Keane: Yeah, it's not out of the field. Shit, sorry. Jesus Christ. Teddy Shevanoff. Never turned up.

1:38:27Gary Neville: Oh, I was really good on this legal stuff. Just the football I've got a problem with. Oh, come on.

1:38:34Roy Keane: Seniors are... Did Dennis play at Wolves? Dennis went to Wolves. How old did Tony... Oh. Right, do you want... Do you want... No. Clubs? Positions? It's going to be centre-back. No, hold on. Let's go on to Claire. No centre-back. No, it isn't. Gary, how old was... Matt and Keown?

1:38:46Gary Neville: No, he said no centre-backs. Yeah, exactly. Everton player. Could be an Everton player.

1:38:50Roy Keane: How old?

1:38:52Gary Neville: Everton player. Seamus Coleman, what was he? Oh, God. He's obsessed with Fulham. 38. This is a tough one. It's Joe Pearce. No. No, he's definitely on it. That list is wrong. He played for West Ham and Newcastle. I've just dropped the banana over there. What's the youngest age? Do you know what I'm saying? Is it like someone 30? 39 years. 356 days.

1:39:08Ian Wright: That's the youngest.

1:39:09Gary Neville: Wow. Let's concentrate on it. Don't be just shouting names.

1:39:13Roy Keane: You're the one shouting. Thank you. Don't get in, Kieran, all right? is my second foreign play Peter Reid no Peter Reid foreign foreign play two English and one Scottish oh wow big names Stratka Scolsy yes Gordon Stratka

1:39:31Gary Neville: good show Gordon Stratka how was Scolsy Scolsy was 39 you're back you're back in the quiz team go on Gordon Stratka I think Scolsy was all Scolsy Scolsy 38 not Scolsy fuck you know

1:39:44Ian Wright: 40 40 as well

1:39:50Roy Keane: How are they playing? 40 years old. How old was Gary Matt? I could just walk up the stairs, nearly 40.

1:39:57Ian Wright: No, Gary McAllister, I just want to mention. Big birthday, lads. We've got an overlap, right? Go, go, go. Go for your birthday.

1:40:06Roy Keane: Okay, I'm up for that.

1:40:07Ian Wright: Look at us, look, there's a bloke's taking it. No, I love go-karting.

1:40:11Roy Keane: I love go-karting. Let's do it.

1:40:13Ian Wright: Right, who's the fourth? You're not beating me in that. Jill, how old are you now?

1:40:16Roy Keane: So I'm 40 soon, February. So 39.

1:40:20Ian Wright: You look young.

1:40:21Roy Keane: Thanks, Gary.

1:40:22Ian Wright: You look great.

1:40:23Roy Keane: Roy always says I look 50.

1:40:25Ian Wright: Right, so... All downhill. Let me see. So last one. Two English. Give us your positions. Striker and A midfielder. Striker. Striker. Come on, lads.

1:40:35Roy Keane: How old was Ronaldo? So they're both 39, weren't he? Yeah, he's English. English, we're after him. No, because one's four. One's four, Jamie. It was just the question. In between. Glenn Murray. Nope.

1:40:46Gary Neville: Just threw you in there, Glenn. I was thinking Ricky Lambert. Who? Ricky Lambert. What are you there? I'm thinking big English striker, like... What year would you play the game? Brian Robson. Yes.

1:40:58Roy Keane: Oh, my... The four's a good job.

1:41:00Gary Neville: Defoe? Player manager. That's not a good one. Help me out here. How can I not say Brian Robson? Because you're just not with it, girl.

1:41:09Ian Wright: You're obsessed with lawyers at the moment, girl.

1:41:12Gary Neville: Rob, what? Jesus Christ, Ben. Is that chocolate or is that raisin? No, Joel, you shouldn't. Chocolate or raisin? It's 356 days, that's a D.

1:41:21Roy Keane: Is that a D?

1:41:22Gary Neville: Yes. Not raisin. So the other one's a midfielder. English midfielder. No, striker. Striker now. Striker, English striker. Alan Shamer. Early 2000s. Early 2000s. Was that when he would have played his last game? No, no, no. That's kind of what I remember.

1:41:36Ian Wright: Is it obscure kind of name? Is it like a Niall Quick? Kevin Phillips. Oh! See that? See what I was just saying? I was just saying Niall Quick. Kevin Phillips. When he said 230, that's when I remember him. You remember Kevin Phillips 2001, don't you, 2000? I was going to get Kevin Phillips. I was going to say Niall Quinn, Kevin... He was good, wasn't he? Jamie, you've got to do it quickly, Jamie. Well done, Jamie. He's brilliant.

1:41:57Gary Neville: That is the end of a brutal, brutal stick to football.

1:42:08This has been a Global and the Overlap production.

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