He’s Planned More than 30,000 Trips: Here’s What Travelers Get Wrong

0:00I'm Jonathan Alder and you're listening to Sweet Success.

0:08You've just checked in to Sweet Success. Join me, Katie Cline, for exclusive conversations with hotel executives, hospitality leaders, and industry innovators. Together, we'll uncover the strategies and techniques these masters of hospitality relentlessly refined. Whether you're already in the industry or just starting out, tune in every week to unlock the secret to your sweet success.

0:37Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Sweet Success. I'm your host, Katie Kline, and today I'm excited to welcome Jonathan Alder to the show. Jonathan is a nationally recognized luxury travel expert and the founder of Jonathan's Travels, an agency known for shaping highly personalized journeys for a discerning global clientele. He has visited 72 countries across all seven continents and has planned more than 30 ,000 client trips to date. Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me, Katie. And I just want to update you on one thing. As of this last trip, we are at 100 countries.

1:17Whoa. Okay. So I know before we started recording, you said you were just on the road for six and a half weeks, but you didn't jump from 72 to 100 in just the last six and a half weeks. No, no, but that was, we did a lot of countries on the last one. I think it was 12 new countries on the last trip alone. Whoa, okay. Our numbers have kept going up. Okay, so in the last six and a half weeks, you've been on the road and you have been to 12 countries. Yeah, I think I've lost track. Okay, walk us through what that itinerary looked like. So we started flying over to Paris to have an eight-hour layover and see one of our favorite guides.

1:58So working in the world of luxury travel, it's all about the guides and what you do on the ground. And we have a guide that we absolutely adore. So much so that I'd put myself through a 21-hour travel experience just to have eight hours to see her. So we met her upon pickup in Paris and went out to Chantilly because we needed something close to the airport where we had time to go in and out. And it's such an awesome area that I had never seen before. And of course, the home for anyone that loves desserts of Chantilly cream. The castle is gorgeous. They even have, believe it or not, wallabies at the castle.

2:34So it's not everything you'd normally think about France. Beautiful library. it's considered the second most important museum in France after the Louvre is the Chateau of Chantilly. So really cool way to spend a day. Then over to Morocco, we spent four nights in Marrakesh before hopping down to South Africa. Then some safari time there in addition to Johannesburg, up to Zimbabwe for three days for a camp I have been dying to get to for more than a decade. So from there, we flew back down and went to Cape Town in the Winelands and had some just amazing time, incredible time in both places, and then jumped on a 24-day, not 23, it's 24 because they extended a day, to cruise all of West Africa.

3:26So while I've done North Africa, Central Africa, East Africa, Southern Africa before, I've never done any of the West. So countries like Namibia, Angola, Sao Tome, Ghana, Senegal, Ivory Coast, Benin, Cape Verde, the Canary Islands, and Madeira over the next 24 days, and even ending in Spain before getting off the ship in Portugal. So it has been a long trip. We actually started it back in April, and this is the first trip I've ever been on that went over three separate months being involved. Are you a carry-on or checked bag person for a trip of that length? By the time we got home, we had six checked bags, most of them exceeding 70 pounds each.

4:15So not light. A lot of stuff. And picking up, we started much lighter. We started with five checked bags. We ended up with six. Because as you're going to these places, shopping is a requirement. Of course. We left with a lot of beautiful bottles of wine. We left with even masks from Saotome, some amazing stuff along the way. So the shopping was just incredible. Like the things we brought home from this trip are really special. I want to hear more about this trip. But before we do, let's talk about your agency, Jonathan's Travels. Can you talk a bit about the origin story and then the type of clients that you serve now?

4:56So it started kind of way back. I'd say I really started getting into the interest of travel. Probably around 10 years old, my mom took me over to Scotland and England for two weeks, which is my first international trip. And I loved it. And I absolutely loved it. From then on, as I entered my teenage years, I really got interested, I don't know how or why, but into the business of travel. We had moved actually out of L.A. I'm born and raised in LA and we moved after the 94 earthquake to Arizona. And I think it was such big culture shock moving there at that time that I was always looking for somewhere to go and exploring the world more as I didn't love it.

5:35And I was looking for new places and new ways to see things. And that's when I got into not only the interest of international travel, but the business of travel. And I figured by the time I was 15, I knew I wanted to own a travel agency. I knew I wanted to be in this, but the industry changed. the internet came to be finances changed everything changed in the business and my life changed it went a million directions i was an olympic level ice skater for 15 years i took up fencing i was nationally ranked there for many many many years um even took up djing i did a lot in that period and then i needed a life change um unfortunately my mom passed away young and i worked with her company in healthcare.

6:19And I was thinking, where do I go with my life now? What do I do? And I defaulted back on what do I know the best? And I knew the business of travel. And I actually went to my old travel agent and said, are you guys looking for anyone now? I'm really interested. And she knew what I knew and had even come to me for advice on stuff through the years. And she said, you know, we're hosting a travel school now and the rest is kind of history. So I started partnering with a host agency of travel store at that time. It was amazing there in LA. And then we kind of discovered we liked the way the traditional travel agency works, but we can do it different and we can do it better.

7:00How do we shape where I think this should go? And that's when we branded out and created Jonathan's Travels. It's really about an eye of the future of the industry and not the way things were done. It's taking what was done really well and trying to do it with our own twist and our own what we think are improvements to the way things could be. At the time when I started, everyone was office hours. It was nine to five, you're out on the weekends. I never understood how you could do that and be in luxury. Luxury isn't a nine to five taking off holidays and you're out of office when you're traveling.

7:36And luxury is 365 days a year and nearly 24 hours a day. When I started, I was truly on every 3 a.m. call I needed to be on. Now I paid my dues and I can avoid that somewhat. But there are no days off. There are no holidays. There is no Christmas is a busy day for me. It's not a quiet holiday off. New Year's is busy. People are traveling and there's issues that have to be dealt with. and true hospitality and luxury is service. And it's understanding that level of clients want to be taken care of. They want you there to deal with it so that they don't have to have those headaches. And I love it.

8:19And I truly love it. Well, I'm sorry to hear about your mom. I can imagine how difficult that was at such a formative time. But I do have to go back to Olympic level ice skater, nationally ranked fencer, and DJ. I'm sorry. We got to spend a little time on those. That is the first time on this show. I've had a very, I've had a very blood. A few, a few things here and there. I, which I think all of that has actually built on who I am today because the perseverance that it takes to compete at sports at that level. Yeah. Isn't for the weak. It's for the survivors out there. Like you, you push yourself to a breaking point.

8:59And that builds on who you are as a person to deal with business at that later point. And you also mentioned moving to Arizona, which I wouldn't think to be the ice skating capital of the world. So give us like the elevator pitch version of like, how did you even get into these sports? How do you rise to that level of success within those sports? Because I agree, I could imagine that that has made you such a smart businessman because of the effort and time and energy that you put into something so young so quickly. Yeah, Arizona was not it for sure. Arizona is what started me traveling. I started skating actually in Northern California years later.

9:42That it just was, I was looking for something to stay active and a sport that I would really enjoy and try. And I went kind of a hundred percent day one. So I really enjoyed it. and then just stuck with it. Moving up a little bit to little bit to training for an hour or two to training for four or five hours a day to full-time five days a week to a point where actually moving to work with the right coaches in the East Coast. So I actually moved to Connecticut and New Jersey just because of this and spent three years of my life out on the East Coast just because of that. Then when I decided that no more for me, I moved back to California at that time.

10:23Okay, and you actually competed in the Olympics or? No, no, no, no, was working toward it. And then decided it was either going to be four more years of living on the East Coast. Yeah. Or kind of get out now while I'm feeling my body start to go. And I chose to get out. While I love New York and New Jersey, it is a different planet than LA. And it's a major cultural adjustment. And I missed home. I missed being back. So it ended up being the right time because things work out in life. What happened in the next couple of years is what set up where I am now. Yeah. Yeah. If I hadn't been there, it would have been a totally different situation.

11:03As a New Yorker, I can actually understand why four more years could talk you out of something. So I totally get that. But where did DJing come in as well? I love music. I've always had a passion for music and just decided one day I thought it would be fun. And at certain points back when I was in L.A., I actually DJed the Viper Room. I DJed the House of Blues, the original House of Blues. I got to go to different events and clubs, and I loved it. It was fun. Not for a career that that's where I was trying to go and make all of my money, as a side gig for fun. At that time, I was also working and travel.

11:40The fencing part is actually what set me up, though. As you don't know in your life where you're going and where the plans are and what comes to what, it was literally fencing that set up my travel career because a parent that I think every day for this came up with a suggestion that fencing is a very travel oriented sport. If you want to make it and the kids that are doing this, if they want to get those college scholarships, they have to be going to international events. This is, we're talking an elite group at the top and they're traveling almost every week, every other week, even during the school year is primarily when it is.

12:18And they're being sent to towns that no one's ever heard of. Most of them in Europe, usually the cheapest destination anyone could find in a place you never would want to go. But they had a fencing club there that wanted to support it or something like that. And she said, we're left on our own to figure this out. The national organization doesn't help at all. And if you're not in the top three, they're not covering you. So the parents have to pay, arrange, deal with everything and get there and figure out all the travel. Where do they stay? How do they get to these places? So I came up with the idea of pitching to U.S.

12:51Fencing an entire travel program for them. And that is what actually set up my business for success, was finding that niche that no one else was touching. So it took us about six months and we signed. My first thing I got into with travel was about a million dollar contract with U.S. Fencing, planning both for the corporate side and planning for the individuals being referred out as the source to plan the groups and help get group blocks at little hotels, have parents call me and go, so where do we need to go? How do we get here? You know, arranging transport, arranging everything. So for them, it was simple and simplifying life is what luxury is.

13:31Still, some of my clients to date are original people. While we haven't worked with fencing in way more than 10 years, I still work with some of those people that are my first three clients I've ever had are still my clients today. I just had one of them in London the other week. So that built the bridges of where I am now. So it's every little thing you do in your life, you never know where it's going to go and where it brings you next. Yeah, there was a guest on this show who said something that I think about very often, which is everyone has an unfair advantage. You just need to figure out what yours is.

14:06And we would have never thought that fencing would be your unfair advantage. but actually that's a perfect example of like you understood the needs of that clientele because you were that clientele at one point and you also understood travel and you had traveled a bunch and you had a passion for it and you understood the business of it so to be able to fuse those things together very few people would be able to do that and it led to a huge client for you in the beginning you've touched on a bit of like how the old world of travel agencies used to be and how you very quickly saw it needed to change.

14:41It is changing. I do think that there is a false narrative out there that particularly in the age of AI, you can just do everything yourself, right? Like you don't need a travel advisor. You and I both know that that is very, very false. Why do you... That's why I like it, Katie. Why do you think that travel advisors are more essential today actually than ever? it's not things have changed but with all the information out there and give a perfect example if you're sick you can go on the internet and try to diagnose yourself you may be right you may not be right most people will choose to find a great doctor than to try to cure a disease themselves and go i have no idea what i'm doing but let's see what this does if you have legal issues you could choose to go online and find out how to represent yourself and how to take care of things.

15:34But if someone can afford it, the first thing anyone would want is a really good lawyer. A great travel agent prevents you from needing a really good lawyer. A great travel agent is cheaper than a divorce. A great travel agent is your saving grace in so much of your world. People don't realize how much of their life is travel. Our job is everything from a world cruiser, a private jet around the world to we're going to see Taylor Swift or Beyonce and we need car service for tonight. Travel is so many things. It isn't necessarily a six-week trip. It can be a 24-hour trip. It can be we need an evening out.

16:13Can you book me a car for the night and then give me some suggestions for a great restaurant if we knew one in wherever it is? It can be a lot of things. but having that person that's there that knows the places. As you said, you're a New Yorker. You've never been to Omaha. Do you want to go online and try to figure that out? You hope AI, which is really just browsing Google, is going to know what's really good? Or do you want someone that's actually been to those places and goes, wow, no, you should really go here. I'm not saying the internet doesn't help. The internet is great, but it's understanding the internet.

16:47I've found some of my favorite restaurants that way. Literally. Would I trust it with an itinerary? Never. Because what it's doing is it's coming up with suggestions that it can find based on information out there, but it doesn't understand. I had a client that came to me not that long ago, referral, and she was asking me mainly to help book some hotels because her AI assistant had suggested using a travel agent with amazing amenities. Okay, great. We can help with that. But I read the itinerary it sent me and it was so insane. I'm trying to think the most polite way to say this, that I had to stop her and go, I'm happy to help with this, but what you're reading, this isn't possible.

17:35It was telling her a four-hour drive was going to take her over a day because it left her with a day with no hotel. It was telling her what the price points should be at things. These aren't the prices at anywhere. I don't know where it's finding that from 2011 or something from an article it pulled from, but it wasn't giving her a picture of reality. When we were done, the entire trip looked different. We're getting to the destination she wanted to go to, but the itinerary couldn't be any more different. And it is a combination of what she asked for. Some of the things were great. Other ones, we know it because we've done it.

18:12We've been there, we know the destinations, and we also work with suppliers on the ground. I mean, I'm only as good as the people I work with. We have worked on that relationship over decades now to build those sources that when I don't know something, I have those people that are on the ground in those places and I can ask any question, not just hoping Google will give me the right information. I own three short-term rentals, and I think about this a lot when someone's coming to town and they say, what should I do? Where should I eat? And you're right. You could go onto the internet AI and ask what restaurant is the best in Lake George.

18:50But I'm going to know if you're coming with a group of girls for a bachelorette party, or if you're coming with a multi-generational family and your youngest guest is one and your eldest is 72, I'm probably going to suggest a different restaurant. And it doesn't mean I don't love the other restaurant more or less, but for you, for your trip type, for what you need, there's going to be different nuances there. And I think it's interesting, you know, you started this conversation by saying you were just away for six and a half weeks, actually experiencing these things so that you can give that firsthand opinion and say, I'm hearing you want X, but from my experience, it was more Y.

19:30Bingo. It's frequently done that way. A client will come to me and ask, say, I want to go here. my first answer isn't which will be most agents answers is sure let's do that let's get you there my first question for them isn't that my first question is why yeah why do you want to go to this place especially if it's a place that i don't necessarily love and i have my reasons for not loving whatever that place might be and i'll go what is it you want to see what well i want this this and this this is what i'm thinking can i be real with you and tell you the truth about what you're asking me for.

20:07Where you're asking for those pictures of beautiful water you're seeing, the end of the day, it's cold, rocky, and slimy. It may be clear and blue, but it's also 68 degrees. Is that what you're thinking you want? You want amazing ruins in history where you're saying you want to go. It doesn't really have that much, but they have great marketing. The internet leads you to a lot of marketing and a lot of reality, but even more falsehoods of what a place is because anyone can make a small room with a fisheye lens look huge. One thing I'm really proud of is, so we're a family business. My husband runs the other side of this while I do more of the client facing.

20:43He handles our social media and our hotel relations and vendor relations and stuff like that. One thing we're really proud of is that our social media shows a reality. We don't filter, we don't edit, we don't know how, we don't use Photoshop. We show you what it really looks like. taken with a simple phone that I don't think any iPhone in today's world is simple, but taken with a phone and getting the reality of here's what it really is, not this destination that really doesn't look like it. We were just, one of the countries we were just in was Saotomi. And if you go online and you look up the destination, it is so different than what it was in reality.

21:30Not for better. It was interesting It was very hard. It was emotionally painful. Well, would you want to go there for a week? Probably not. But when I looked at it the night before, and I'm Googling pictures of it to go, what is this? Wow, this looks amazing. Why are we not going here? The reality is it isn't quite like that. You can find an angle to make it look like that, but the truth of the destination is quite a bit different. It makes me think there was this place that was all over social media. this is years and years ago now, and it was some type of elephant sanctuary maybe. And you could get these amazing pictures of sitting out on the terrace and having your breakfast and the elephants are right there.

22:12And then there was a social media couple who went after seeing all this other social media hype. And they were like, guys, these elephants are chained to the ground and showed photos of that. It's just, I mean, the level of heartbreak of learning that that is how these animals are being treated and that the internet is continuing to perpetuate it because, ooh, look at where I am in my beautiful photos. I think what you're doing is the part that AI can't do, which is you are almost removing that filter to say, here's what the real experience was like. If that's what you want, great. But not in the elephant case, nobody should want that.

22:51But if these destinations are what you're looking for, happy to help you plan a trip for that. But let's just hear really the core why. And let me tell you if that's the right destination, I think, for what you're trying to achieve. And there's this term that goes around quite a bit. And you as a journalist definitely know this is the dupe destination, which is instead of this, go here. So many of the places that get the hordes and masses, there is a better destination than that. Yeah. True luxury isn't a trend. True luxury travelers don't go to the place that everyone is talking about. That's where the masses go.

23:29Luxury is about creating that trend in the first place. It's going to the destination. Like, I'll give you a perfect one. Amalfi Coast, the mainstream destination. Ridiculously expensive, horribly overpriced, absolutely no value for your dollar at all. Beautiful. Wouldn't go in the water, but beautiful. Crowded. The money doesn't travel there. The money goes to Portofino and Porto Viario and all of these places farther north in the Cinque Terre. You won't find the masses. They're not easy to get to. They're purposely not easy to get to. Because if you're a billionaire and you're going somewhere, you don't want the easy-to-access destination for the crowds.

24:12You want the one where you can be left alone and no one bothers you. Yeah. Of all of the places, all of the itineraries that you've put together, what is that most requested destination? And do you think it lives up to the hype? so for everyone it's different for us i'd say italy will always be a strong top one um it is for americans at all time italy is absolutely fantastic it is overcrowded but it's also finding the version of italy that is our version of italy which is very different than the mainstream itinerary and that's what a great travel agent brings into it it isn't we go to rome we take the train to Florence.

24:54We go up to Venice. Our clients don't take the trains because between point A and point B are some of my favorite things to do. We do it with a car and driver and guide and do stuff along the way. So we turn a three-hour drive into an eight-hour day. The best winery you will ever go to in your life, at least in my opinion, is in Italy, and it's literally between Rome and Florence. Everyone else on a train is passing by it. It's the experiences between the points that are as important as the point itself. And that's what we try to focus on. My favorite part of Italy is Emilia Romano. Do you know Emilia Romano?

25:34Are you familiar with it? We've been to Bologna. Oh, you know my happy place. Have you done Parma and Modena? No, we need to. We used to. So we lived in the UK for six years, and both my husband and my birthdays are in February. So we would always go to a different region of Italy every February. it was a really quiet time, not a lot of tourists going. So that was really cool. And we would try a different area. And Bologna, obviously it's known as like the foodie capital of Italy, which Italy you could argue is the foodie capital of the world. And I was blown away. It 100 % lived up to that reputation.

26:07The food was out of this world. And the Bologna, Bologna is our home base for clients doing this. And then we day trip it up to Parma and Modena. We need to get you back there because it's, If you think you've seen Bologna, Bologna is the hotel base and is a great city, but you haven't seen anything, especially the food part. Parma is prosciutto. It is culetello, but it's what's your famous word that starts with Parma is Parmesan. It's mortadella. This isn't Bologna is your place with a great hotel. It's the other two. Modena, balsamic. If it isn't from Modena, it's not real. Yeah. I thought I hated mortadella until I tried it there.

26:46like completely same with parmesan i was like oh no i hate it because to me as an american it came in that like green tin you know what i'm talking about certain plastic branded horrible i hate the smell of it everything and then i had real parmesan cheese i was like oh i do not hate this it's incredible um lambrusco i think also from that region blows my mind love that style of wine and we do we do my it's one of my favorite places to do we have a guide there that we just love and she does food touring. And I don't mean food tour. I mean food touring. So you eat and then your history and then you eat and then history and then you eat and then history and then you fall over and die halfway through.

27:26But we stopped like six to eight times for different food stops. Oh, it's so incredible. And that's passed by people on the way. And I hope you're telling me you always went in February. Did you ever do Venice in February and go to Carnival? We did. We did Venice. Not Carnival. We actually had an incredible experience because we were very lucky. Paolo, who is the GM of the Gritty Palace, was a good friend of mine from my Starwood days. So he put us up in an incredible suite. And we just had this, I mean, it felt like we had Venice to ourself because it was so empty then. And then we actually went to Bologna.

28:02I think we did take a train though. So we missed out on the key recommendation, which could have been - Between those two is Verona, the town of Romeo and Juliet. So it's great to, like I'm saying, between every one of these places, there's more you can do. And Venice, if you've never done it, if you ever want to go back in February, go for Carnival. Actually, we get our clients rentals of actual, not recreations, but actual period piece costumes. So you're wearing hundreds of year old clothes. It is the only time in my life that I've ever worn pantyhose. And I feel really bad for women because those are the most miserable thing.

28:37I don't know how they did it for hundreds of years wearing these things. They keep falling off every two seconds and you're hiking them back up. I didn't realize how real that was until you're like jiggling back into them as they come down. As a woman, you get corseted in, which is, I've heard, super fun. And you go to the city, actually host, there's private events in the city events, and you go to the world's first carnival, which was the original Sin City was Venice. You went to commit as many sins as possible before Lent. So it ends at Lent. And that's why they wore the masquerade mask, so they could have anonymity for whatever bad things they did.

29:17Now it is much less of that and more, I don't want to call it family friendly, but toward that direction. And you go to amazing dinners and events and aerialists and fireworks. And it is such an amazing experience to have. when, as you said, few visitors are there. And even during Carnival, which is not quiet, but it is nothing compared to summer. Plus the weather is fantastic. It's cool and crisp in the 40s and 50s. And if you dress up, everyone's going to want to take pictures of you. So much fun. And one of the greatest life experiences I've ever had was doing that. So if Italy is one of the most popular destinations that your clients are requesting, what's on the opposite side of that?

30:02what's maybe one of the more unusual places that your clients have requested to go? That is always a hard one because we've gotten so many. I'd say the weirdest one at all times, if I had to pick one, before it was an independent country, before it made huge news, was before, we're talking more than 10 years ago, way more than 10 years ago, was someone asked me to go to Juba, which is the capital of South Sudan. But this is before the war started, before they became independent. And my first question is, where in the world is Juba? And trying to find a hotel and find airlines that can fly there.

30:42Definitely on the most unique destinations of all time, of finding somewhere that is truly so far off the beaten path that I didn't know anyone that had even heard of it or where it was. We get requests all over. So stuff from what I call unusual, what other ones call unusual, like my favorite places in the world. I love the Stan countries. I'm a huge fan of Uzbekistan. I actually just sent my husband and his mom to Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan like two months ago, like a month before we did this big trip, and saw the other ones. They are so underrated and so incredible as destinations. Another big one for us, you're asking for big ones, is Japan.

31:24Japan is a place I've been truly passionate about since I was in third grade. My teacher got me into Japanese culture. and I love it. And again, our Japan is very different than the mainstream Japan. We never do the one that's going to turn the country sideways because everyone is in the same straight line of Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka. We get into the real Japan. Tokyo, great. Kyoto, great. Osaka, fun if you have a day. But the other parts of Japan, like Takayama or Kanazawa, are mandatory for me, even on a first-time trip. This is where you need to go, with my favorite part being the Key Peninsula, which is literally, if you look at a map, doesn't show anything but a green blob.

32:05But it is the most beautiful part of the country. The emperor had his hiking trails there. As a commoner, you couldn't even hike here. Now, of course, you can. It's considered a pilgrimage hike. Just incredible parts of the country that we will get requests to go to and one that we sell quite a bit. But for unusual stuff, It goes all over the place. Japan is clean. Everyone knows Japan is one of the cleanest places in the world. Uzbekistan is cleaner. There are people sweeping the dirt in a park. So there isn't a leaf or a rock out of place. If you wanted to walk out and say, hey, I'm going to go walk to my by myself in Tashkent to dinner and we'll be back at one in the morning.

32:49I wouldn't be worried about you at all. There's zero crime, zero safety issues. the people are super friendly and the food is it's the silk road so the food is italian chinese persian uh indian all combined together and a lot of russian influence from the soviet days to probably one of the greatest cuisines in the world that people just don't know a lot about uzbekistan has been really high on my list when i was living in the uk i was looking at traveling there it was a place i really wanted to go so everything you're saying sounds great my biggest my biggest hindrance was trying to find a hotel that I thought looked nice enough to stay in.

33:28Do you think there are great places to stay there? I mean, in the capital, which isn't your primary place, it's where you fly into. And by the way, as a New Yorker, you know, you have a nonstop flight to Uzbekistan. There's Uzbek Air flies from JFK directly to Tashkent. It's lovely. I wouldn't say the food is great. The entertainment on the plane hasn't been updated since 1985, Soviet Union. The plane is new. 787-900 Dreamlighters. They're pretty. Flatbed and business class. I flew them for five hours from Istanbul, but it's the same plane flying to New York. It isn't bad. It certainly saves you a lot of hours, but otherwise you can fly via Istanbul's a huge one.

34:07Turkish flies there. When it's safe and calm, Emirates flies there. So you have options and different ways to do it. But we stayed at the Grand Hyatt, which could have been a Four Seasons if it was branded right. It's absolute luxury. When you're in the smaller places, destination over a five-star hotel any day of the week, I'd always say for someone. But I mean, you're still finding four-star. You're finding decent, clean, safe, comfortable, beautifully decorated. Are you expecting a concierge or room service? No, but you won't care. Very nice. I mean, couldn't be any nicer properties wherever we went.

34:50Everything was wonderful. I'd go back in a heartbeat, truthfully. Wow. Well, let's talk a little bit about summer because we know that this is historically a super busy travel time. Are you seeing that for summer 2026? There's a lot going on in the world right now, but yet we know travel continues to be strong. We're definitely seeing a good amount of summer business going. I'd say not as strong as a couple of years ago, but still very strong. We're huge pushers of what you said and what you said was brilliant there of you go to Italy in February. We're big fans of that mentality. If you have kids and you can't escape a school holiday, then yes, you're beholden to that and that's your dates.

35:32But if you ask me when you should be going to Europe, winter, fall. the money travels in fall October and I mean if you're looking for a coach seat it's wide open in October and September try finding first business or premium they're gone because the heat breaks the weather is great the crowds at least the family crowds have slowly mitigated and become smaller my favorite time of year if I was picking I'd go in April and May weather is fantastic flowers are blooming go see the tulips go to Giverny and go to Monet's Gardens in blooming season. It's one of the most gorgeous places in the world. Most tourists go there in summer and they missed all the spring flowers that are already done.

36:15Not that there aren't great summer too, but spring flowers are just, the colors are unreal. The time to go isn't necessarily the summertime. So we're seeing a lot of breaks. We're seeing chasing winter trips, going, leaving the heat and saying, I'm looking for somewhere cooler. So we're sending people to Australia in winter. which most people don't think is high season, but it's truly the Australian high season because you're not dealing with the fires and the heat waves in the south, and the tropical north is open. Whereas if you go our winter, their summer, it's beautiful weather in Sydney, though it could be really hot.

36:50But the tropical north, like half of the continent is off because it's too hot in the center. The tropics are having storms nonstop. Half of the lodges don't even open because there are so many typhoons and cyclones. And I always forget which one you call for which region of the world. Hurricane here, I think it's cyclone down there. Same thing, different direction of spinning. But you can't even go. I mean, if you want to risk it, we were actually doing that as a fun, true story. I did it. We were supposed, the cruises all like to go during what is the worst season of the year to be in the tropics.

37:25All the boats are positioned down there, mostly for Australia and New Zealand. But we wanted to do Melanesia. It was a whole region I'd never been to. And those are places like Papua New Guinea. Australia is part of it. But we were doing one that was doing Vanuatu and New Caledonia. Two very, we'll call it off the beaten path destinations. And they only go when it's the worst amount of storms. So we were supposed to be going to the north of Australia for a few days before the cruise. And literally the day we were coming over, a category three storm was moving right in. But that is the traditional time that people are told that's when you should be going.

38:00And that's what a good travel agent is there to do is what you've seen on the internet when you should go may not be the reality of when you should go. And if you're looking at a big destination like Australia, Australia is huge. It's a continent. It doesn't have one climate. It has so many different climates. So if you want to really go all over, when is the best time of year to do it where you could get to everything? Sure, it might be a little cold in the south, but it's better than giant wildfires. Yeah. So time it right. What do you think the most popular destinations are this summer specifically?

38:35Italy is still up there. No matter how crowded it gets, I don't think there's ever going to be a point where at least Americans go, I don't want to go to Italy. Africa has maintained huge crowds, sub-Saharan Africa. Kenya and Tanzania are immensely popular. Heading down south to Botswana is blowing up big these days. The amount of especially in luxury travel that is building down there. You have Kidra a few years ago, which came up, which I went to when its previous incarnation is a simple four star that was wonderful. Now it is over the top incredible and also about triple the price. And then Singita, who is one of my favorite brands out there, is building their new property that's opening the end of this year in Botswana.

39:17So expect to see a lot of that. getting out of the norm is a big one for people now. We have a request going on for Serbia and Romania that I'm going to be working on shortly for the end of the summer. So people are looking for that next destination or they are looking for the one they've wanted to go to that they've always heard about. Some want France and England and that and other ones want, I want something like that, but where can you send me where it isn't just full of people? And also the value for money in today's economy, the value means a lot to people. Yeah. Is there a destination that you've visited that you are obsessed with, but isn't getting any airtime?

39:59And you're like, why are people not obsessed with this? Why are they not seeing what I'm seeing? I mean, one for sure is we were just going back and we were on that for the stand countries. I think it's amazing. My first thought when I was going there was Uzbekistan was going to be something between CNN war coverage and a Borat movie. That is literally what my view was. I couldn't be more wrong. When people hear the word Stan, they think of Afghanistan comes to mind quickly. Pakistan comes to mind. Another big one could be something like India, which is one that is incredibly overpopulated, but incredibly under-touristed, which is a weird combination to have.

40:50They have a lot of business travel, but leisure travel has never taken off there in the same way. A lot of people are afraid of what it is. They're nervous. And truly, they have the right to be. It is, to any client I have going there, I describe it as, it's a lot. It's just a lot. It's not good. It's not bad. It's a lot. And I'm not going to sugarcoat it and say, oh, this is just relaxing and easy. It's not. But it is a place that changes your life perspective entirely. The stand countries open up your eyes to what you learned in school when you were studying Marco Polo and the Silk Road. You see the real deal and it's incredible and it is easy.

41:36It's not hard, but nothing about India is easy. But the payoff is, one, some of the best luxury in the world. The hotels and the service level, the food is incredible. So for what you get for the struggles of it, the luxury is incredible. I mean, of anywhere you'll ever go in the world, some of the best service and properties are in India. So you go from fascinating, amazing, heartbreaking and incredible to a respite at the end of the day in beauty and luxury. And there's different parts of India. There's the traditional tourist path, but then there's places I love like Uttarakhand and going up to Rishikesh, which is the birthplace of yoga, which is one of the most beautiful places in the entire world.

42:18So it offers a lot. Sri Lanka is another one that should be on everyone's list. Much more Southeast Asia than it is India, both in religion and also culturally. But again, another trip that is booming in some respect in terms of luxury happening all around there, but you're not hearing about it as much. Another big one, a lot of it is Asia. Europe people are so familiar with, but Asia less so. So Laos, Thailand gets all the requests. And it's one of those destinations. They say, tell me why you want to go to Thailand. Okay, what you're really asking for is Laos. Laos is a destination that is Thailand before the tourists have overrun it.

43:04Luang Prabang specifically. I mean, every hotel that is there is luxury. There's either hostel or luxury. They don't really have middle ground. And they purposely set up the destination like that. so to have fewer tourists but higher end tourists and you're truly seeing that what your dream of of northern thailand of what you think it's going to be is really this and it's absolutely unbelievable bali everyone thinks of we love komodo uh big fans of the komodo region you escape the crowds of bali and the tourism i mean have you been to bali have you ever done i have I've been to Bali. Yeah. Long time ago, though.

43:44Have you when you were there, did they have the world's largest KFCs in Circle K? Or was that? You know, I don't think it was when I was in Bali, but I think it was when I was in Cambodia. And I remember Googling. This is a really long time ago now, but it was I Googled best restaurant in whatever area we were in. And the number one rated restaurant on TripAdvisor was a KFC. And you cried. And that's when your point about like needing a travel advisor is like, that's why sometimes the internet is just very wrong. No offense to that KFC. No, I'm sure it was great chicken. But if you go to Bali now, like when you're driving up the coastal area is Australia's Cabo.

44:25So it's cheap shots, cheap t-shirts, literally three story KFCs. I mean, huge. Circle K is bigger than anything you've ever seen in your life. But once you get up into the mountains and do that, you're in much more the realistic thing. But too many tourists getting out of there and getting to these other regions of Indonesia that are ignored are on the top of our list that really should have people paying attention to it. And LeBuan Bejo, which is the main city that is in the Komodo region, learned from Bali's mistakes and they didn't want any mass tourism. So, again, they brought in only luxury.

45:03There is nothing else. There may be a hostel or like, I mean, we're talking either backpacker level or at the top. But what is expensive to the world is not necessarily expensive to the American market. So by keeping out the crowds, one of the best five-star hotels is literally$300 a night. So it's not mind-blowing high, if I told you that. Yeah. But for most of the world, they won't go for that. therefore the crowds don't come and you get to see true culture for what it is and especially get out to meet the dragons which is one of the coolest experiences you'll ever have in your life is being next to the world's greatest apex predator that could kill you in about one second and thanks to the locals knowing when it ate last i mean i've taken a selfie with a 10 to 12 foot Komodo Dragon that could have killed me in about a quarter of a second.

46:00Wow. Wow. You mentioned earlier about consumers really being conscientious of how far their dollar can stretch right now or their euro, their pound, whatever currency they're using. Are you seeing any other shifts in traveler behavior specifically for this summer? Are people taking longer or shorter trips? Are they flying? Are they driving more? What are you seeing? Sure. One big thing we push is there's a difference between low cost and value. People really want value. Value can be a$400 ,000 trip. You still could have great value. You could also be spending$1 ,000 on a whole vacation and get no value or value.

46:39Value is getting equal or more quality and product than what you're spending versus something that is overpriced for what it is. So value is a huge one. And finding that value is what people are really looking for right now. I'd say the trend is definitely flying. We're not seeing a lot of domestic travel. We are very much seeing overseas travel. we are seeing fewer trips but higher quality trips people really want to put all in on one than to do six they'd rather do something right and say they've done this and create it because travel is about creating memories do you want to create okay memories because you did everything just on a level of was this memorable ad didn't really like this this wasn't anything great would you rather do that and do three times a year would you rather do once great that's what we did this six-week trip?

47:37We did one and huge and saved up for this for years. Or do we go on smaller things all the time? And that is the value of, it's the value of value. It's the value of understanding where do I want to put my priorities. But we've not seen a sink in what people are looking for, which is incredibly high quality travel and not just luxury, but experiential luxury. Anyone can do a beach resort and sit there on the sand. But true travel is the quality of the ground services. The biggest part of the trip is what you're doing. It's not where you're staying. I can put you at a great four-star hotel that's lovely or the best five-star hotel in the biggest suite.

48:21That's some of your memory. And that's some of what it is, is that you love the hotel. Don't get me wrong. But the what you do every day is the absolute most important part and the most expensive part. But that's what shapes the whole trip is the touring itinerary afterwards. You've been to 100 countries now. Where haven't you been yet that is highest on your list? Oh, that is a tough one because I'm running out of places, sadly. One that I almost, let me rephrase it. I had the opportunity to go to, but I would have had to get off a cruise. It sounds like we cruise all the time. We really don't.

48:58It's just all of these seem to come up in conversation points. I would have had to get up in Barbados and somehow get to Nepal the next day, which was not particularly easy itinerary to get to. So on that note, the one I really want to do is I want to take a helicopter to Mount Everest. Not luxury is trekking it and pooping on a rock for three weeks. Luxury is getting in a helicopter and being there in an hour or so and stopping. I had the clients that were there who invited me to join them. They landed at about 18 ,000 feet for an amazing view. They landed at Base Camp. They landed at Luckham Bazaar, which is the home of the Sherpas.

49:41Incredible places to get to go in your life, but to do it in comfort and luxury and then be back at your five-star hotel by that night. So that is absolutely on the top of my list. Oh, I love that. Jonathan, I want to ask you the last three questions that I ask every guest. And the first is, what was the best hospitality experience that you have ever had? There's been so many. So one of my favorites of all time is One and Only Gorillas Nest up in Rwanda, where after a day of trekking to see the magnificent mountain gorillas, they actually help take your muddy shoes off and give you a foot massage.

50:17When you're back to being welcomed by dancers and an entire performance as we were landing in our helicopter at the resort up in the mountains coming from Kigali. Incredible experiences to getting an upgrade in Paris to our favorite hotel in Paris, which is the Shangri-La. Shout out to the Shangri-La Paris. To stay in not just a room, but in Napoleon III's private apartment as the entire hotel was once his house. But we stayed in Suite Bonaparte, which is incredible, as you think of. And years later looked and it was on an article somewhere of the top 10 most amazing rooms in the world. The gold on the wall is not hotel painted gold.

51:00This was his actual apartment. So it's like staying in Versailles. The crystal is real. The art is real. The paint is real. The entire I mean, yes, they've upgraded the plumbing and the air conditioning since hundreds of years ago. So, but the question was, where do you want to go for dinner? Oh, wait, why would we go for dinner? We're getting room service because why would you want to leave this room? We had a dining room for eight that is gilded in blue. There's so many amazing places that I don't want to neglect them all. But those are two that are just, those are the travel memories that will never leave you.

51:32Yeah. On the opposite side of those, what was the worst hospitality experience you've ever had? Oh, luckily there's been much less of those than of great ones.

51:46Worst was actually, well, this time we loved our property where we stayed in Marrakesh. The last time was at a very famous property called La Mamunia, who actually left our guests crying. There was hostility from the staff, and it wasn't the first time we had this complaint. I was really surprised when we went. I'm like, this is supposed to be so great. They left us in the lobby for eight hours while they never had our reservation confirmed. We sat there the entire day while they kept saying, oh, the room will be ready. The room will be ready. We found that they never had anything booked. I've never had a hotel actually leave people in tears of not joy.

52:27That is the winner of the worst of all times. Yeah. Final question for you. What does hospitality mean to you? And is there anyone, it could be a person, it could be a brand that you think has truly mastered it? Great one. Hospitality to me means service. It means understanding and it means customization. It means creating dreams for people. Whether that is an amazing dinner at an incredible restaurant and knowing they love this one food, amazing hospitality is that magically showing up on the menu. Hospitality at a hotel is knowing someone's needs before they know it. Or I'll give you an example.

53:07We were literally in Paris back at the Shangri-La with no notice. There was a strike. I don't know if you know today. On the third yesterday, there was a countrywide strike of Lisbon's. Our crews ended in Lisbon. We were supposed to overnight. We got out of there on the second because the next day every flight was canceled. And we went up to Paris with zero notice. And the guy at the front desk when we checked in said, oh, I remember you from a couple of years ago. It was like three or four years ago at this point, and he actually remembered us. And like, oh, it's so good to see you again. That's hospitality.

53:41The brands that do it right, I'd say none of the obvious ones you think of have mastered it. Not saying that there aren't amazing things in every luxury brand, but every one of every luxury brand, I don't care what brand it is out there. there isn't a perfect 100 % of any chain that has every one of their properties down perfectly. The smaller ones in luxury, and frequently it's in places that are not thought of as the mainstream, but Kenya and Gama, small, two properties and growing, incredible, incredible, I mean, incredible hospitality. Their brand gets it. Their brand gets it so well. And in Tanzania and South Africa and soon to be Botswana and Rwanda, Singita.

54:30To a point we talked about originally that I used to love to DJ. They knew I loved music. I came back a year later, my butler who I hadn't seen in a year without being asked had a Bluetooth speaker in a private dinner location for us so we could play music. That's hospitality. I mean, this is eight years ago now and I still remember him. I remember his name. His name was Ramadani. This is hospitality. And you won't find that in the big chains like you will find. They'll have client profiles and they'll have notes, but really knowing people, that's the hospitality that keeps you coming back. Jonathan, this has been so much fun.

55:11I know I will be calling you to book my trip to Uzbekistan quite soon. I hope so. We're here for you anytime. Don't forget Parma. You owe me a Parma. That's true. That's true. Thank you again. Thank you, Katie. All right, everyone. It's time for today's sweet summary where I break down the key insights and actionable takeaways from today's conversation. Throughout my time with Jonathan, he kept coming back to one question over and over again. Why? A client tells him they want to go somewhere and instead of immediately saying, great, let's book it. He asks, why? What have you seen or heard that makes you want to go there?

55:50What are you actually hoping to experience? And then, given his expertise, he's able to determine if that destination is actually going to deliver it or recommend someplace better. To me, this is getting at something much bigger than travel planning. We're in a time where we have more information at our fingertips than ever before. And because of that, just information alone isn't necessarily valuable anymore. But discernment is. AI can tell you the top-rated hotel. Instagram can show you a beautiful beach. Google can give you a list of restaurants. But none of those things inherently understand you, who you're traveling with, the purpose of your trip, that your baby won't sit still for any meal lasting longer than 37 minutes, or that your mother has trouble navigating steep stairs.

56:46That level of nuance is where real expertise comes in. Jonathan has now traveled to 100 countries. He spends weeks on the road experiencing the hotels, guides, and destinations he recommends firsthand. And because of that, sometimes his expertise means telling a client, I know you think you want this, but based on what you just told me, I think you actually want that. And to me, that is real luxury. I think there is an important distinction here between luxury and expense. Jonathan said something else I loved. There's a difference between low cost and value. A$400 ,000 trip can offer tremendous value, while a$1 ,000 trip can be wildly overpriced.

57:36Value isn't about how much something costs. It's about what you receive in return. Increasingly, he's seeing travelers prioritize that equation differently. Fewer trips, perhaps, but better ones. Less checking destinations off a list, and more taking the time to discover a place in a way they'll actually remember. And when someone slows down enough to really experience a place, the details matter more. That allows us, the people creating those experiences, to have more opportunity to understand our guests, to anticipate what they need and to surprise them with something they never would have known to even ask for.

58:18The best hospitality doesn't just remember what someone ordered for breakfast or which type of pillow they prefer. It understands who they are well enough to create a moment they never would have thought to ask for themselves. And that concludes another episode of Sweet success. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please subscribe, rate, and review the show. We all know how important those five-star reviews are. I also want to say a massive thank you to each and every one of you for tuning in. It means the absolute world to me. And I'd love to hear from you. If you have ideas for future guests, new topics to cover, or even just want to say hi, don't be shy.

58:57Message me through our website, sweetsuccesspodcast.com, or on social media, at Sweet Success Podcast. That's sweet like hotel suite. Once again, I'm your host, Katie Klein, and I'm super excited to see you all next week.